Sin,Suffering And Evil in the Deterministic Model

[seer]

First let me say how thankful I am to be able to post these some what different thoughts on theology without being called names or labled "heretic."

Perhaps as we look back on the history of God and man we will find that Sin,Suffering and Evil were all a part of God's good plan. That they were in fact needed:

1. Perhaps evil and sin were needed for God to display His whole range of desires,attributes and personality. Without sin and evil could we have ever, in any real sense, known God's mercy,wrath, or moral character?

2. Or His love? There is an interesting verse in 1 John 3:16

"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."

Perhaps we could have never known genuine love apart from Christ's sacrifice. And if that is true, then the fall of man was necessary towards that end.

3. That Adam (and man in general) in his raw state needed to be developed in to Christlikeness. And like Christ who learned obedience by the things He suffered, our characters also must be tried and formed by suffering.

4. So we have two overall reasons for Sin,Suffering and Evil:

A. Through them God displays all His attributes. His likes and dislikes,His justice,mercy,love,power,etc... Things that might have been forever hidden apart from the fall.

B. To take the raw animalistic human nature, and through centuries of battering, conform it to Christlikeness and obedience.

Of course, in my mind, this leads to an obvious conclusion. And that is, it is "all of God" - then God, not man, is responsible for everything. And if this Deterministic Model is correct,I believe, it leads to the obvious conclusion of the salvation of all men.

That God in fact desires all men to be saved (1 Tim.2:4). And that God will see all His desires done (Job 23:13).

[Possibilities]

Yesterday @ 10:53 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=84463#post84463)
seer:

First let me say how thankful I am to be able to post these some what different thoughts on theology without being called names or labled "heretic."

Perhaps as we look back on the history of God and man we will find that Sin,Suffering and Evil were all a part of God's good plan. That they were in fact needed:

1. Perhaps evil and sin were needed for God to display His whole range of desires,attributes and personality. Without sin and evil could we have ever, in any real sense, known God's mercy,wrath, or moral character?

2. Or His love? There is an interesting verse in 1 John 3:16

"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."

Perhaps we could have never known genuine love apart from Christ's sacrifice. And if that is true, then the fall of man was necessary towards that end.

3. That Adam (and man in general) in his raw state needed to be developed in to Christlikeness. And like Christ who learned obedience by the things He suffered, our characters also must be tried and formed by suffering.

4. So we have two overall reasons for Sin,Suffering and Evil:

A. Through them God displays all His attributes. His likes and dislikes,His justice,mercy,love,power,etc... Things that might have been forever hidden apart from the fall.

B. To take the raw animalistic human nature, and through centuries of battering, conform it to Christlikeness and obedience.

Of course, in my mind, this leads to an obvious conclusion. And that is, it is "all of God" - then God, not man, is responsible for everything. And if this Deterministic Model is correct,I believe, it leads to the obvious conclusion of the salvation of all men.

That God in fact desires all men to be saved (1 Tim.2:4). And that God will see all His desires done (Job 23:13).

Seer,

There is a fallacy in that thread. You start off with a deterministic presupposition which leads by definition to a deterministic conclusion. Assume a deterministic model and you will get apriori a pre-determined conclusion. By using deterministic "logic" you arrive at a conclusion which may not be Biblical.

Our conclusions are not derived from certain models or systems of thought but by the Word of God. Any conclusions you arrive at should be Biblical in nature (quoted from and consistent with the entirety of Scripture), not derived from certain assumptions that lead to certain conclusions by a process of stepwise mental assertions.

In any case, deterministic models are not popular these days in other realm. Physics for instance has long since outgrown a deterministic model (eg quantum physics).

[Possibilities]

Seer,

There is a fallacy in your presuupositions and conclusions on this subject. You start off with
a deterministic presupposition which leads by
definition to a deterministic conclusion. Assume a
deterministic model and you will get a priori a
pre-determined conclusion.

By using deterministic "logic" you arrive at a
conclusion which may not be Biblical. Our conclusions
are not derived from certain models or systems of
thought but by the Word of God. Any conclusions you
arrive at should be Biblical in nature (quoted from
and consistent with the entirety of Scripture), not
derived from certain assumptions that lead to certain
conclusions by a process of stepwise mental assertion.

In any case, the deterministic model of things is outmoded in contemporary thought. Physics for instance (quantum physics) has long since jettisoned the deterministic model.

[Kenny]

Yesterday @ 10:53 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=84463#post84463)
seer:

Perhaps as we look back on the history of God and man we will find that Sin,Suffering and Evil were all a part of God's good plan. That they were in fact needed:

I think so.

1. Perhaps evil and sin were needed for God to display His whole range of desires,attributes and personality. Without sin and evil could we have ever, in any real sense, known God's mercy,wrath, or moral character?

Yep.

2. Or His love? There is an interesting verse in 1 John 3:16.

That too.

Perhaps we could have never known genuine love apart from Christ's sacrifice. And if that is true, then the fall of man was necessary towards that end.

At least we would not have known the deep sacrificial divine love that was shown.

3. That Adam (and man in general) in his raw state needed to be developed in to Christlikeness. And like Christ who learned obedience by the things He suffered, our characters also must be tried and formed by suffering.

Yes, this is a prominent Biblical theme.

4. So we have two overall reasons for Sin,Suffering and Evil:

A. Through them God displays all His attributes. His likes and dislikes,His justice,mercy,love,power,etc... Things that might have been forever hidden apart from the fall.

You have me up to this point.

B. To take the raw animalistic human nature, and through centuries of battering, conform it to Christlikeness and obedience.

I don’t know if I would choose this wording. I think human beings could still have been good without being brought through the process of the fall and redemption – we were not somehow tainted with evil by our shear human nature. But, I do think that for reaching the full measure of understanding God had in store for us and the full glory that God had prepared, it was necessary for that process to occur.

Of course, in my mind, this leads to an obvious conclusion. And that is, it is “all of God&quot” - then God, not man, is responsible for everything.

You lost me here. Since I am a compatiblist, I see human responsibility and determinism as complimentary (in fact, I think human responsibility depends on determinism being true), but I suspect that this view would be better developed on an independent thread sometime in the future.

And if this Deterministic Model is correct,I believe, it leads to the obvious conclusion of the salvation of all men.

Again, I don’t think so. I would love to be a universalist, but I am convinced that Scripture teaches otherwise (though I realize that there is some evidence for that position, I think the preponderance of Biblical evidence points decisively in the other direction).

That God in fact desires all men to be saved (1 Tim.2:4). And that God will see all His desires done (Job 23:13).

Again, I think this comes back to the two wills issue. But since that is being discussed elsewhere, I see no need to hash it out here.

In Christ,
Kenny

[Kenny]

Today @ 03:04 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=85119#post85119)
Possibilities: In any case, the deterministic model of things is outmoded in contemporary thought. Physics for instance (quantum physics) has long since jettisoned the deterministic model.

I am a metaphysical determinist and I have a degree in physics. At best, quantum mechanics is incompatible with physical determinism (the idea that everything is determined by the laws of physics), but not necessarily (though the possibility of local hidden variable theories has been ruled out experimentally, there is still the possibility of non-local hidden variable theories and there are other sorts of interpretations of QM which are also compatible with determinism). Still, however, QM says nothing concerning metaphysical determinism. As Christians, we don’t believe that everything in the universe is determined by the laws of physics for we believe that God, angels, demons, and other non-material beings (even humans to the extent that we have non-material aspects) also interact with the world in meaningful ways. It may still be when all of these causal factors are taken into consideration, that determinism results.

In Christ,
Kenny

[seer]

Actually Possibilities, there are enought proof texts to support this position. I will post them on request.

[seer]

Possibilities,I took this list from Gary at Tentmaker ( I see you also post there) does this look like biblical determinism?


Matthew 10:29
Not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
Matthew 11:25-27
Nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
Matthew 13:11
To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
Matthew 15:13
Every plant which my heavenly Father did not plant shall be rooted up.
Matthew 18:14
Thus it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
Matthew 19:11
Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.
Matthew 19:26
With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
Matthew 20:23
This is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father.
Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.
Matthew 24:22
But for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short.
Matthew 26:54
How then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen this way.
Mark 4:10-12
To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables.... lest they return again and be forgiven.
Mark 13:20
But for the sake of the elect whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Luke 8:10
To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables; in order that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.
Luke 10:21-22
No one knows who the Father is except the Son...and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
Luke 18:27
The things impossible with men are possible with God.
Luke 20:38
For all live to Him.
John 1:12-13
Who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:27
A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven.
John 5:21
The Son also gives life to whom He wishes
John 5:25
The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall live.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me.
John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing....
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.
John 6:65
For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.
John 8:36
If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.
John 8:43
Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
John 10:16
I must bring them also, and they shall hear My voice; and they shall become one flock with one shepherd.
John 10:27-28
And I give eternal life to them , and they shall never perish and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.
John 11:43
He cried out with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth." He who had died came forth....
John 12:32
And if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to Myself.
John 12:39-40
For this cause they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart; lest they see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted, and I heal them."
John 13:18
I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen.
John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain.
John 17:2
Even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give eternal life.
John 17:6
I manifested Thy name to the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world.
John 17:9
I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine.
John 19:11
You would have no authority over me, unless it had been given you from above.
Acts 1:16
Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled....
Acts 2:23
This Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and the foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men....
Acts 2:39
For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself.
Acts 3:26
...and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.
Acts 4:28
To do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur.
Acts 5:31
...a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 9:15
For he is a chosen instrument of Mine to bear My name before the Gentiles....
Acts 10:40-41
God raised Him up on the third day, and granted that He should become visible, not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God.
Acts 11:18
God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.
Acts 13:48
And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Acts 16:14
...and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
Acts 17:26-28
And He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation...for in Him we live and move and are .
Acts 18:27
And when he had arrived, he helped greatly those who had believed through grace.
Acts 22:14
The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will, and to see the Righteous One, and to hear an utterance from His mouth.
Romans 3:23-24
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.
Romans 4:17
...Even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.
Romans 5:6
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:10
For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Romans 5:18
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Romans 5:19
For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:20
And the law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.
Romans 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Romans 8:28
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren;
Romans 8:30
And whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Romans 8:31
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us who is against us?
Romans 8:33
Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies.
Romans 9:11
For though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls...
Romans 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Romans 9:18
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Romans 9:19
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?
Romans 9:20
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Romans 9:21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?
Romans 9:22
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Romans 9:23
In order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
Romans 9:24
...even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Romans 9:27
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved.
Romans 11:5
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice
Romans 11:26
And thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, and He will remove ungodliness from Jacob."
Romans 11:27
"And this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins."
Romans 11:28
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
Romans 11:29
...for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:32
For God has shut up all men in disobedience that He may show mercy to all.
Romans 11:33
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and unfathomable His ways!
Romans 11:36
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own lord he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
1 Corinthians 1:1
Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God....
1 Corinthians 1:27
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise....
1 Corinthians 1:29
...that no man should boast before God.
1 Corinthians 1:30
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus....
1 Corinthians 4:7
For who regards you as superior? And what do you have that you did not receive?
1 Corinthians 12:11
But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.
2 Corinthians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God....
2 Corinthians 5:17-18
Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold new things have come. Now all these things are from God who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation....
2 Corinthians 8:5
...But they first gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will of God.
Galatians 1:4
Who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us out of this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.
Galatians 1:15-16
But when He who had set me apart from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me....
Galatians 4:9
But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God.
Galatians 5:1
It was for freedom that Christ set us free....
Ephesians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God....
Ephesians 1:4
Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world....
Ephesians 1:5-6
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace....
Ephesians 1:9-10
Making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Him....with a view to....the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth.
Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.
Ephesians 2:4-5
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 3:11
This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
Ephesians 4:10
He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
Philippians 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Philippians 1:29
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.
Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:12-13
Work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Philippians 3:21
Who will transform our lowly body into conformity with His glorious body, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
Colossians 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God....
Colossians 1:13
For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son of His love.
Colossians 1:15
And He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Colossians 1:16-18
For in Him all things were created....all things have been created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together....so that He Himself might come to have first place in all things.
Colossians 1:19-20
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Colossians 2:13
And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions.
Colossians 3:11
...But Christ is all, and in all.
1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:24
Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
2 Thessalonians 2:13
God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
1 Timothy 1:1
Paul an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the command of God our Savior....
1 Timothy 1:13-14
Even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. And yet I was shown mercy, because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:4
...Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 4:10
For it is this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God....
2 Timothy 1:9
Who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.
2 Timothy 2:25
With gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
2 Timothy 2:26
And they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will deliver me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Titus 1:1
Paul, a bond-servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God....
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy....
Hebrews 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under His feet. For in subjecting all things to Him, He left nothing that is not subject to Him.
Hebrews 2:9
...That by the grace of God He might taste death for every one.
Hebrews 6:17
In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath.
Hebrews 8:8-12
"Behold days are coming", says the Lord, "when I will effect a new covenant....I will put my laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be My people....for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
Hebrews 9:26
Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the completion of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
James 1:18
In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we might be, as it were, the first fruits among His creatures.
1 Peter 1:1
Peter...to those...who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father....
1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the exellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
1 Peter 3:9
For you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
1 Peter 4:6
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead , that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
1 Peter 5:10
And after you have suffered for a little, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.
1 Peter 5:12
...I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it!
2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you;
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not purposing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
1 John 4:14
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Jude 1:1
Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to those who are called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ.
Jude 1:24
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy....
Revelation 5:13
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying , "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
Revelation 13:8
And all who dwell on the earth will worship him , every one whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Revelation 15:3-4
Great and marvelous are Thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Thy ways, Thou King of the nations. Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou alone art holy; For all the nations will come and worship before Thee, for Thy righteous acts have been revealed."
Revelation 17:17
For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God should be fulfilled.
Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

[djdavo]

boy...some knowledgeable people on here...


i'd answer this the same way i answered the 'do you have to suffer first to become a christian' thread:

i don't think it was essential to have Sin,Suffering and Evil. IE: Adam did have a choice in the matter. He could have chosen to not eat the apple & live happily ever after walking around with God.
just like some people today who seem to embrace Jesus & run with Him from the getgo.

for all practical purposes,however, 99.9% of us would have made the same choice as adam, so maybe Sin,Suffering and Evil aren't so much essential as they are inevitable.....

[hal weeks]

I believe that God limited His omnipotence when he gave man a free will. His omnipotence anabled him to do that.
Man, given this free will enables him to choose to obey God or disobey him, as did Adam.
Disobedience to God leads to sin. Sin leads to evil.

Does God allow evil? given the above, does he have a choice since he gave it man? Also, if he wanted to create man in his own image he had not choice but to give him a free will.

[johnnybanano]

I believe that pain and suffering are both intended elements in creation and that they are not necessarily the result of evil. Of course, they can be the result of evil. For example, if a person has an evil desire to torture someone, pain and suffering would definitely be a result of that person's evil desire. However, pain and suffering can exist w/o the presence of evil.

I recently came to these conclusions after reading a portion of a book entitled, God and Human Suffering: An Exercise in the Theology of the Cross, by Douglas John Hall. It has been quite helpful, as I began to read it in preparation for a study lesson on pain.

In this book, Hall shows how pain was inherently present in creation. Despite the fact that God deemed everything he created "very good"(Gen. 1:31), pain was present in creation before the fall of man. The auther shows this by demonstrating four types of pain which were present before the fall of man as well as showing why they were to be considered pain and why they were necessary.

The first pain that is seen is the pain of lonliness:

Lonliness was present before the fall in that, while God had deemed creation "very good", he saw that there was an inherent lonliness in creation since it was "not good for Adam to be alone" and "for Adam no suitable helper was found." (Gen. 2:18, 20) We know that lonliness causes pain, but why was this pain necessary? The author suggests that without this pain of lonliness, we would not be able to appreciate the joy of absolute companionship, or fellowship with God, and we would not be aware of how much we need him.

The second pain present before the fall was limitation:

This pain was present in the form of God's restriction to his creation as to what they could consume in the Garden. God said that "...you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." (Gen. 2:17) Hall shows how pain is derived from limitation in our desire to please our appetites for all pleasurable things and then failing. He shows that we try to be like gods and then grieve when we realize these limitations when we "aim high and fall short." However, this pain is necessary in order for us to appreciate gratitude. How good does it feel when someone does a huge favor for you w/o expecting you to repay them? It feels pretty good to realize that someone loves you enough to realize that if it helps you, it's also helping them. That might be a little profound(or perhaps just confusing, there is a fine line between the two:teeth: ) That is exactly what Jesus did for us. We would not be able to experience that gratitude if we were able to save ourselves.

Thirdly, the pain that is brought on by temptation is also present in the Garden before the fall. This is the pain of having your heart wanting to do good, but your body (and in some cases your mind) wanting to fulfill it's selfish desires. In the Garden, Eve knew that God had told Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, yet Eve was faced with the temptation to "become like God." (Gen 3:5) However, if this pain were not present; if we were not given the chance to turn down evil, then we would not have the choice of serving God or serving ourselves. (My apologies to those who do not believe in free will.) We would be simple-minded beings incapable of fully understanding true holiness.

The final example of pain present before the fall is the one with which I have had much personal experience. This is the pain of anxiety:

Anxiety is present in succession to the temptation of Eve. Eve begins to doubt the validity of God's words. Anxiety causes pain in the form of doubt and fear, and, when it is fully manifested, despair. How much pain is caused in this world, by people wondering what will happen to them when they die? Few people in this world live their life without experiencing a fear of death. This anxiety however, can have beneficial results. It is anxiety that calls an atheist to reconsider the existence of God. It is anxiety that calls us to abandon tradition for the pursuit of truth. It is the experience of anxiety which allows us to fully appreciate the joy of absolute peace, absolute confidence, and absolute trust.

So, as you can see, these pains play an important role in properly preparing us for fellowship with God. I understand that this perspective has dangerous implications for the traditions of many churches and denominations, however, the challenging of tradition is vital to the persuit of truth. We must be willing to give up everything for truth...but then again, maybe we shouldn't. After all, I suppose that in a twisted sort of way, that's what got Adam and Eve kicked out of the Garden:doh:. Wow, I never thought of it that way...hmm. Perhaps I should further consider this before going into to much more detail as I have made myself look a little foolish in my "noble quest for truth."

In the meantime, I don't think that I am doing to much harm in sharing my thoughts on suffering and persecution as perscribed in the New Testament.

Philippians 1:27 (NIV)

For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

1 Peter 2:20-21 (NIV)

But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

Perhaps we were called to this persecution and suffering in order to make us strong. Perhaps we were called to it to demonstrate our love for Christ. John 15:13 (NIV)

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

For whatever reason, it is clear that we will encounter persecution on behalf of Christ, and it is clear that if we endure it, it is to our credit.

1 Peter 2:20 (NIV)

But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.

I am interested in what others think of this take on pain and suffering. Thanks for the patience as I know that this was a rather lengthy post. I hope that it was somewhat worth it.

Love and Respect

[seer]

...I am interested in what others think of this take on pain and suffering. Thanks for the patience as I know that this was a rather lengthy post. I hope that it was somewhat worth it.

Your author made some excellent points. Perhaps pain and suffering were needed to take the raw material of man and form him into the image of Christ. Perhaps the fall was necessary so that through our rebellion God could display His attributes of mercy and wrath. Which may have remained hidden apart from the fall.

[Solly]

05-01-2003 @ 10:53 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=84463#post84463)
seer:

First let me say how thankful I am to be able to post these some what different thoughts on theology without being called names or labled "heretic."

Perhaps as we look back on the history of God and man we will find that Sin,Suffering and Evil were all a part of God's good plan. That they were in fact needed:

1. Perhaps evil and sin were needed for God to display His whole range of desires,attributes and personality. Without sin and evil could we have ever, in any real sense, known God's mercy,wrath, or moral character?

2. Or His love? There is an interesting verse in 1 John 3:16

"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."

Perhaps we could have never known genuine love apart from Christ's sacrifice. And if that is true, then the fall of man was necessary towards that end.

3. That Adam (and man in general) in his raw state needed to be developed in to Christlikeness. And like Christ who learned obedience by the things He suffered, our characters also must be tried and formed by suffering.

4. So we have two overall reasons for Sin,Suffering and Evil:

A. Through them God displays all His attributes. His likes and dislikes,His justice,mercy,love,power,etc... Things that might have been forever hidden apart from the fall.

B. To take the raw animalistic human nature, and through centuries of battering, conform it to Christlikeness and obedience.

Of course, in my mind, this leads to an obvious conclusion. And that is, it is "all of God" - then God, not man, is responsible for everything. And if this Deterministic Model is correct,I believe, it leads to the obvious conclusion of the salvation of all men.

That God in fact desires all men to be saved (1 Tim.2:4). And that God will see all His desires done (Job 23:13).

seer, reading this, it was like you were a calvinist again, except for the last part, of course. It does not follow, but that is a different argument.
For myself, whatever the situation regarding God's allowance of evil, sin, and suffering, what is important is that in Christ he came into the midst of it, and is with us now in it - I will go with you through the fire; he was chastised for us, etc. Whatever extremes a deterministic model may seem to go to, yet it is held back by the realisation of who God is, Exo 34. finally, we have Paul's words about this present "light affliction" and the weight of glory to come; John reminding us that he will wipe away all tears, and your favourite writer CSL saying, the extraction hurts and hurts and hurts, and then it is out, there is release. We often fail to take the right perspective - God's - even if we can't wholly understand it. What a joy that one day we will "have knowledge" of these things. For now, whatever our quandries, we can trust God to do right.

[themuzicman]

Let's take these one a a time:

05-01-2003 @ 05:53 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=84463#post84463)
seer:

Perhaps as we look back on the history of God and man we will find that Sin,Suffering and Evil were all a part of God's good plan.


First, I don't see the necessity of evil for good to exist. Pre-fall, we could say that the world was good, and Adam was VERY good. Both were not contrasted with evil in any way.


That they were in fact needed:

1. Perhaps evil and sin were needed for God to display His whole range of desires,attributes and personality. Without sin and evil could we have ever, in any real sense, known God's mercy,wrath, or moral character?


Why would we need to know? In a world without suffering, sin or evil, we would still know His love, because we would be in perfect relationship with Him


2. Or His love? There is an interesting verse in 1 John 3:16

"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."
Perhaps we could have never known genuine love apart from Christ's sacrifice. And if that is true, then the fall of man was necessary towards that end.


We could not otherwise perceive the love of God because of our fallen state. No fall, good perception. No need for suffering.


3. That Adam (and man in general) in his raw state needed to be developed in to Christlikeness. And like Christ who learned obedience by the things He suffered, our characters also must be tried and formed by suffering.

Do you intend that to apply pre-fall, as well? Seems to me that Adam (and Eve) were very good, pre-fall


4. So we have two overall reasons for Sin,Suffering and Evil:

A. Through them God displays all His attributes. His likes and dislikes,His justice,mercy,love,power,etc... Things that might have been forever hidden apart from the fall.

B. To take the raw animalistic human nature, and through centuries of battering, conform it to Christlikeness and obedience.


Seems a rather devious mode: Cause suffering and sin and evil, just so God can show off? Another of God's characteristics is justice. If he causes sin, and then condemns us for the sin He caused, there is a justice problem.

Also, you need to address the state of Adam pre-fall. If your characterization did not apply pre-fall, then your argument is severely lacking.


Of course, in my mind, this leads to an obvious conclusion. And that is, it is "all of God" - then God, not man, is responsible for everything. And if this Deterministic Model is correct,I believe, it leads to the obvious conclusion of the salvation of all men.


Unfortunately, that is clearly unscriptural.


That God in fact desires all men to be saved (1 Tim.2:4). And that God will see all His desires done (Job 23:13).

I think it's pretty obvious that God's desires are not always done.

Michael

[seer]

The fact is muzicman, God could have stopped Adam from sinning. So obviously sin and evil have a purpose. Heck God could have taken Satan out of the picture centuries ago - but He hasn't. So again God must have a purpose for allowing all this.

[seer]

...seer, reading this, it was like you were a calvinist again, except for the last part, of course. It does not follow, but that is a different argument.
For myself, whatever the situation regarding God's allowance of evil, sin, and suffering, what is important is that in Christ he came into the midst of it, and is with us now in it - I will go with you through the fire; he was chastised for us, etc. Whatever extremes a deterministic model may seem to go to, yet it is held back by the realisation of who God is, Exo 34. finally, we have Paul's words about this present "light affliction" and the weight of glory to come; John reminding us that he will wipe away all tears, and your favourite writer CSL saying, the extraction hurts and hurts and hurts, and then it is out, there is release. We often fail to take the right perspective - God's - even if we can't wholly understand it. What a joy that one day we will "have knowledge" of these things. For now, whatever our quandries, we can trust God to do right.

I agree Solly, but as you noticed I go back and forth between the free will model and the deterministic universalist model. They both have strong points - heck if I can figure it out in my life time...

[themuzicman]

Today @ 11:04 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=136720#post136720)
seer:

The fact is muzicman, God could have stopped Adam from sinning. So obviously sin and evil have a purpose. Heck God could have taken Satan out of the picture centuries ago - but He hasn't. So again God must have a purpose for allowing all this.

He could have? On what basis do you place this assertion?

Seems to me that if God gave us free will, that it would be a violation of His nature to stop Adam from sinning.

Similar issue with Satan.

You're making a huge number of assumptions that are unstated to reach your conclusion, not the least of which is determinism.

Michael

[seer]

...He could have? On what basis do you place this assertion?

You mean God couldn't stop Adam from sinning?

...Seems to me that if God gave us free will, that it would be a violation of His nature to stop Adam from sinning.

That is just silly - there are examples in scripture where God stops men from doing evil/sin.

Genesis 20:5

"Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her."

Here God prevented Abimelech from sinning - what about his free will?

See also Gen. 31:7, 35:5,Ex.34:24,1 Sam.25:26,34 for other examples of God preventing evil.

...Similar issue with Satan.

Really?

Revelation 20:3

"and he threw Satan into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time."

Here Satan is prevented from affecting humankind for a season. What about Satan's free will here?

Your assumptions are not biblical. God can and does prevent men from sinning and does prevent Satan from doing harm.

[themuzicman]

Today @ 01:30 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=136804#post136804)
seer:

...He could have? On what basis do you place this assertion?

You mean God couldn't stop Adam from sinning?

...Seems to me that if God gave us free will, that it would be a violation of His nature to stop Adam from sinning.

That is just silly - there are examples in scripture where God stops men from doing evil/sin.

Genesis 20:5

"Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her."

Here God prevented Abimelech from sinning - what about his free will?


How did he stop him? Did God create circumstances that called his attention and free will away from touching her? That would prevent him from doing so without violating free will.


See also Gen. 31:7, 35:5,Ex.34:24,1 Sam.25:26,34 for other examples of God preventing evil.


Again, you're putting your assumptions into these verses.



...Similar issue with Satan.

Really?

Revelation 20:3

"and he threw Satan into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time."

Here Satan is prevented from affecting humankind for a season. What about Satan's free will here?

Your assumptions are not biblical. God can and does prevent men from sinning and does prevent Satan from doing harm.

There will come a time when God will judge Satan, and he will be bound for his actions. This isn't thwarting free will. Satan can still do what he wants within the limitations God has placed around him.

This is like saying that Naman didn't have free will because he had to go wash in the Jordon river to be healed and live. Absurd.

Michael

[seer]

...How did he stop him? Did God create circumstances that called his attention and free will away from touching her? That would prevent him from doing so without violating free will.

It does not say how God did it only that God prevented him from sinning. But either way God prevented it. Are you suggesting that God couldn't have done the same for Adam?

...See also Gen. 31:7, 35:5,Ex.34:24,1 Sam.25:26,34 for other examples of God preventing evil.

...Again, you're putting your assumptions into these verses.


No I'am not. God clearly prevented men from doing harm.

...There will come a time when God will judge Satan, and he will be bound for his actions. This isn't thwarting free will. Satan can still do what he wants within the limitations God has placed around him.

The fact is Mike, God can bind Satan when ever He wishes and prevent him from causing harm. The fact that He doesn't shows that God, on some level, wants that old devil around.

[Solly]

Yesterday @ 04:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=136722#post136722)
seer:
I agree Solly, but as you noticed I go back and forth between the free will model and the deterministic universalist model. They both have strong points - heck if I can figure it out in my life time...

Yes, the old thorny issue of Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility. That is why Open Theism has arisen in this day and age - it is the Spirit of the age once more rife in the church. Since "Free Will" must have it's say, then God must be limited in one way or another; he certainly can't "interfere" with our decision making processes, they say.

But the Lord told Moses in the wilderness that he knew Pharoah would not let the people go, and that he would harden Pharoah's heart Exo 4.21. Didn't his foreknowledge limit Pharoah's actions? didn't his foreordination limit Pharoah's actions? Yet do we accuse God? Was Pharoah's decision forced on him; did he not rather make a decision based on the thoughts and intents of his heart?

Sometimes we must just bow our heads and accept that both of these things are in scripture - but they are not equal, because God is God. "Free will", or "unhindered moral volition" is witnessed in scripture - though not argued for. Yet time and agin we see that the Lord directs. He gives us the desires, or confirms the desires that drive our volitions. Ultimately, he gives us a new heart, one that desires him, since the old one never will. For me that is the difference between the Reformed understanding and others. A radical disjuncture between our old nature and new; rather than the old in some way patched up.

[themuzicman]

Today @ 06:16 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=137377#post137377)
seer:

...How did he stop him? Did God create circumstances that called his attention and free will away from touching her? That would prevent him from doing so without violating free will.

It does not say how God did it only that God prevented him from sinning. But either way God prevented it. Are you suggesting that God couldn't have done the same for Adam?

...See also Gen. 31:7, 35:5,Ex.34:24,1 Sam.25:26,34 for other examples of God preventing evil.

...Again, you're putting your assumptions into these verses.


No I'am not. God clearly prevented men from doing harm.


Ah, but the question isn't whether, but how. If God wanted certain things to happen or not happen, He is perfectly capable of arranging circumstances whereby people freely choose a given direction.

In Abraham's case, God only had to create circumstances for a short period of time, until the King could realize that there was a problem, and correct it. In Adam and Eve's case, God would have had to eternally distract them from Satan's attention, in which case they would never had been given the test of their love for God.


...There will come a time when God will judge Satan, and he will be bound for his actions. This isn't thwarting free will. Satan can still do what he wants within the limitations God has placed around him.

The fact is Mike, God can bind Satan when ever He wishes and prevent him from causing harm. The fact that He doesn't shows that God, on some level, wants that old devil around.

God does not do things against His nature, nor does He violate His own word. In order for God to rid Himself of Satan, and save a remnant of His creation, God has to do things the right way, which means that He won't simply bind Satan whenever, because He has given His word.

Again, you've put several assumptions into your argument which don't necessarily hold water. You might want to flesh these things out better.

Michael

[seer]

Yes, the old thorny issue of Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility. That is why Open Theism has arisen in this day and age - it is the Spirit of the age once more rife in the church. Since "Free Will" must have it's say, then God must be limited in one way or another; he certainly can't "interfere" with our decision making processes, they say.

I don't know Solly. First, if free will is not correct then those defending free will are only doing what God ordained them to do... ; )

Second, Open Theists may have a more pure motive. In defending free will perhaps they believe that they are also defending God's just character. It is almost impossible to reconcile the Calvinist view of Sovereignty with human responsibility.

[seer]

Ah, but the question isn't whether, but how. If God wanted certain things to happen or not happen, He is perfectly capable of arranging circumstances whereby people freely choose a given direction.

So God could have arranged the circumstances so that Adam could have freely remained obedient. So why didn't He?

God does not do things against His nature, nor does He violate His own word. In order for God to rid Himself of Satan, and save a remnant of His creation, God has to do things the right way, which means that He won't simply bind Satan whenever, because He has given His word.

What are you talking about Mike? Where did God give His word not to bind Satan whenever He wishes?