Where do people go when they die???

[gary cook]

Well I died 2 times in life ,hard too believe ,but none the less truth.The 1st time ,I was in my 20sand I went into darkness ,never felt so much fear ?I begged JESUS to give me another chance ,he did .I believed at the time and even now I was on my way to hell ?The next time I got od,ed in the hospital .This time I was BORN AGAIN .I went to new jerusalem ,Where JESUS CHRIST is right now .I saw the city .it has wall very high .it has towers about ,guessing 4times higher than the walls .it was in space ,where their were no stars .But the glory of JESUS was so bright it lit the space outside the city .I told the LORD ,I want to stay,but have 4 kids and a wife .They need me ,can I go back and help them .He said yes .I awoke in the room .The nurse ran in .You see they had od ed every one on that floor .@ different nurses were giving out the drugs ,and I had just been moved up there ,and had gotten a shot plus mant pills down stair.The dying part is nothing ,but it is where you go ?But if you ask JESUS CHRIST into your heart ,and tell HIm you believe HE died for you ,Then you will be born again .Then you need to get baptisted .You will not be sorry .any questions cookgary3@yahoo.com

[Macarthur]

Some have suggested that the near death experiences people have gone through are simply the chemical reactions within the brain. The fact that Chrisitians have near death experiences about seeing Christ, Muslims meeting Allah, etc, etc, may shed some light. Man, I don't know. There have been lots of people spend their entire life looking for definitive answers.

[Sheepdog]

that passage in Revelation, it is either literal but not until sometime in the future, or it is figurative of the Christian world now.

personally, i don't care much for visions. God can use them to communicate to us, but the problem is, the devil can too.

[gary cook]

JESUS said ?MY SHEEP WILL HEAR MY VOICE !You see HE came here and died to restore man ,to place ?Where we talk with HIM ,and HE with us !Then will not be tricked by the demons .You will know where the extra thoughts you get come from ?

[gary cook]

Some have suggested that the near death experiences people have gone through are simply the chemical reactions within the brain. The fact that Chrisitians have near death experiences about seeing Christ, Muslims meeting Allah, etc, etc, may shed some light. Man, I don't know. There have been lots of people spend their entire life looking for definitive answers.THIS was NOT NEAR DEATH .I was DEAD both times .I know it sounds like a big deal .But a miracle to GOD is just another miracle .I have seen 100s and more.Lots have people see none .But I believe they happen to them .I believe GOD PROTECTS PEOPLE ALL THE TIME .BUT THEY DON"T KNOW IT .

[Lily]

Well I died 2 times in life ,hard too believe ,but none the less truth.The 1st time ,I was in my 20sand I went into darkness ,never felt so much fear ?I begged JESUS to give me another chance ,he did .I believed at the time and even now I was on my way to hell ?The next time I got od,ed in the hospital .This time I was BORN AGAIN .I went to new jerusalem ,Where JESUS CHRIST is right now .I saw the city .it has wall very high .it has towers about ,guessing 4times higher than the walls .it was in space ,where their were no stars .But the glory of JESUS was so bright it lit the space outside the city .I told the LORD ,I want to stay,but have 4 kids and a wife .They need me ,can I go back and help them .He said yes .I awoke in the room .The nurse ran in .You see they had od ed every one on that floor .@ different nurses were giving out the drugs ,and I had just been moved up there ,and had gotten a shot plus mant pills down stair.The dying part is nothing ,but it is where you go ?But if you ask JESUS CHRIST into your heart ,and tell HIm you believe HE died for you ,Then you will be born again .Then you need to get baptisted .You will not be sorry .any questions cookgary3@yahoo.com

Thanks for sharing that! :)

[mossrose]

THIS was NOT NEAR DEATH .I was DEAD both times .I know it sounds like a big deal .But a miracle to GOD is just another miracle .I have seen 100s and more.Lots have people see none .But I believe they happen to them .I believe GOD PROTECTS PEOPLE ALL THE TIME .BUT THEY DON"T KNOW IT .
Hebrews 9
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,



So, what do you do with this verse?

[learning]

Yes, but what about Lazarus, and others that Christ raised from the dead, and even that boy that Elisha prayed over and raised from the dead? They obviously died more than 'once', as they lived again and then died.

[mossrose]

Yes, but what about Lazarus, and others that Christ raised from the dead, and even that boy that Elisha prayed over and raised from the dead? They obviously died more than 'once', as they lived again and then died.
Those were miraculous events that occured in Scripture for particular purposes of God, for His glory, and of course I believe that those happened. However, I don't believe that sort of miracle occurs today.

I believe that God heals, yes, but I do not believe that any person who truly dies today is brought back from death, especially as Lazarus was, after 3 days of being dead.

Now, if you can tell me what it means to be truly dead.......medically speaking, I might change my mind. But brain death is permanent and irreversible, to my knowledge.

[gary cook]

No problem .,This is teaching ,we MUST die once ,But paul died more than once .and I think more in the bible did .But 2 men ,have not died at all yet ?And must come back to die .

[gary cook]

Those were miraculous events that occured in Scripture for particular purposes of God, for His glory, and of course I believe that those happened. However, I don't believe that sort of miracle occurs today.

I believe that God heals, yes, but I do not believe that any person who truly dies today is brought back from death, especially as Lazarus was, after 3 days of being dead.

Now, if you can tell me what it means to be truly dead.......medically speaking, I might change my mind. But brain death is permanent and irreversible, to my knowledge.
Nothing is impossable with GOD.It is your understanding and FAITh is the problem .JESUS CHRIST said ?When I return ?Will I fine FAITH on the earth ?You SEE ?You have little FAITh .GOD DOES NOT CHANGE .HE IS STILL THE GOD OF MIRACLES .ONLY BELIEVE ?When you die ?Your SPIRIT leaves the boby .My spirit lift 2 times .My boy when born was dropped by the nurse ?He also died .was out 20minutes .They gave up on him .I prayed for him .He is 10 now .honor roll.head of school patrol .one of the top 9% in u.s.a. He was given a gap score of 3 .But GOD IS STILL ?THE GOD OF MIRACLES .ONLY BELIEVE .HE loves YOU ,KNOW HIM .HE WANTS TO KNOW YOU VERY MUCH !

[gary cook]

Yes, but what about Lazarus, and others that Christ raised from the dead, and even that boy that Elisha prayed over and raised from the dead? They obviously died more than 'once', as they lived again and then died.Is ANYTHING ?TOO HARD FOR GOD ?This is not so great ?Our names written in the LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE .THIS IS GREAT .HE STILL WANTS TO DO MIRACLES IN YOUR LIFE !KNOW HIM ?SEEK HIS FACE .HE LOVES US ALL VERY MUCH !And DESIRES TO BE YOUR FATHER AND FRIEND .FAST TO KNOW HIM BETTER .YOU WILL BE HAPPY ,YOU DID

[t-rex]

Salutations,

Grace and peace from Utah.

Gary: Thanks for recounting those episodes.

I would have thought this thread would have generated more response. Either it's been discussed extensively on a prior thread or this is just a fuzzy area in most people's theology.

Mossrose: "However, I don't believe that sort of miracle occurs today."

Isn't this kind of arbitrary? Is "that sort of miracle" only resurrection? Or I guess maybe I'd ask what miracles do still occur today in your view.

Sheepdog: "personally, i don't care much for visions. God can use them to communicate to us, but the problem is, the devil can too."

Just curious, is there a biblical precedent for God's people being deceived by demonically inspired visions? I'm not sure this is a medium the demonic can easily replicate. Do you apply the same criterion to dreams?

These are just some questions that came to mind while reading through the posts...

In Christ,
t.rex

[gary cook]

This means ?You must die at least one time .it does not mean ONLY once .But once is enough for most .But I believe PAUkl died more than once and others .You are dead ?When your SPIRIT leaves your body .Not until that happens .Others in the bible were DEAD and ,the spirit returned .This seems like a bigger deal than it is .But any MIRACLE is ?Just a MIRACLE .Because it is NOT NORMAL ,in out thinking .But our thinking is earthly .We are NOT EARTHLY ,if BORN AGAIN .We are NEW JERUSALEM BEINGS .BORN OF GOD ALMIGHTY .Gee do you know the GREAT MEANING HERE .BORN OF GOD .HIS thoughts with in us .HIS VERY SPIRIT .THE CREATORS SPIRIT .DWELLING WITH IN US .We do not need to live in the NORMAL .Unles you CALL the things of GOD NORMAL .healing the sick raiseing the dead .Walking on water .Because that same SPIRIT IS WITH IN YOU .YOU ARE MORE than you know .Seek HIS TRUTH .WALK IN FAITH .YOU CAN DO ALL THINGS IN CHRIST JESUS .ONLY BELIEVE .

[gary cook]

Salutations,

Grace and peace from Utah.

Gary: Thanks for recounting those episodes.

I would have thought this thread would have generated more response. Either it's been discussed extensively on a prior thread or this is just a fuzzy area in most people's theology.

Mossrose: "However, I don't believe that sort of miracle occurs today."

Isn't this kind of arbitrary? Is "that sort of miracle" only resurrection? Or I guess maybe I'd ask what miracles do still occur today in your view.

Sheepdog: "personally, i don't care much for visions. God can use them to communicate to us, but the problem is, the devil can too."

Just curious, is there a biblical precedent for God's people being deceived by demonically inspired visions? I'm not sure this is a medium the demonic can easily replicate. Do you apply the same criterion to dreams?

These are just some questions that came to mind while reading through the posts...

In Christ,
t.rex
This is TRUE alright .But we all believe what we want to believe ,and for some reason ?We count some things a bigger deal with GOD .As notning is a big deal with our LORD .But if I was going to say somethuing was bigger ?I would say ?AShowing the future was big ,as HE did JOHN and paul .At least what happen to me ,happened in our time .Knowing GOD is the real deal .Then you can understand TRUTH .other wise ?We try to live like the world and never know TRUTh to any degree .HE is more than we can undertsand with our little minds .With HIS HOLY SPIRIT revealing it ?

[Chytraeus]

THIS was NOT NEAR DEATH .I was DEAD both times .I know it sounds like a big deal .But a miracle to GOD is just another miracle .I have seen 100s and more.Lots have people see none .But I believe they happen to them .I believe GOD PROTECTS PEOPLE ALL THE TIME .BUT THEY DON"T KNOW IT .

The greatest miracle is when God takes a person dead in sins, hostile to God, lost in darkness, and translates them in a person alive in the righteousness of Christ, friend of God, and walking in the light. This He does through the proclamation of His divine Word. "And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? (Rom 10:14).

God's revealed Word is the only trustworthy source of knowledge about God. Life after death experiences seem to always reflect the bliefs of the person who experiences the death. Universalists always come back saying that everybody goes to heaven. Works theologians always come back saying that all nice people are in heaven. I am sure that I would come back saying that only those who placed all their hope and faith in the crucified and risen Savior. I'll take God's Word over someone's experience any day.

Where do people go when they die? Jesus says that those who die in their sins go to a place of fire and suffering, while those who die in Him go to a place of comfort and joy. We call the first Hell, and the second Heaven. As far as the New Jeruselem, Revelation says that place will exist on the New Earth, which will not exist until this one has been taken away. It seems that you saw what you expected to see both times.

The fact that at the moment of your first death you called out to Jesus for mercy tells me that you had already heard of Him, but that you had not yet believed. However, your consience had already been pricked about the depth of your sin, so when you died, you expected to be going to hell, so that is what you experienced. It is also very likely that your expectation was precisely on target. Realizing this, you came to the end of yourself and trusted in the One who is merciful. It is His mercy and grace that saves you, and not "asking him into your heart." Faith is a gift from God that enables us to receive His mercy and grace. To God alone be the glory. Amen.

[IncRus]

The Bible says that the DEAD go to the GRAVE (Psalm 88:5) and stays in the grave UNTIL the heavens DISAPPEAR (Job 14:10,12) on JUDGMENT DAY (2 Peter 3:7,10).

In fact, king David was still in his TOMB during the apostles' time (Acts 2:29,34) some 700 years AFTER he died.

Thus, near-death experiences are probably dreams that occur moments BEFORE one wakes up from a deep sleep.

[gary cook]

No the bible does not teach we go too a place of fire.It is a hot place,But the lake of fire was made for demons,yet after judgement,Those who reject the lamb of GOd ,must go with the demons.I can not speak for others and the things they say.But the scripture clearly tells us ,we go to our city made for us,NEW JERUSALEM ,which I did.satan is the great deciever and tricks many sadly.But the bible is the living WORD .And I have found it too be true.I have experianced most everything in the new testament,except walking on water or being transported like phillup.But believe all things could be done in a BORN OF GOD PERSON. all things are for us.They HOLY GHOST is in charge of these things and not us.OUR LORD has not changed,Everything is the same ,until we no longer live in this grace period.Soon it will end,And the earth will enter the GREAT TRIBULATION.Then it will be HIS WRATH upon those who have rejected HIS BLOOD. Without the NEW BIRTH,You are lost forever more.I know ,I died both ways.I thought I was saved the 1st time.I knew of JESUS CHRIST and the bible,even went to church,felt the holy ghost there.But had not had a REAL NEW BIRTH.We must be born in our spirits.Our spirit is the one who goes to NEW JERUSALEM or to the center of the earth to await judgement.Long wait too.over a 1000 years.After death experiances must line up with the WORD OF GOD.We know all will not be saved.The LORD tells us,We MUST BE BORN AGAIN .A NEW BIRTH ,causing us to be NEW CREATURES is what is needed.besides,The bible teaches ,none are righteous ,no not one.So being a nice person is nothing to GOD.Being BORN OF GOD,is everything.Then is our names written in the book of life.

[Chytraeus]

Luke 22-24 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

Like I said, Jesus said those who die in their sin go to a place of fire. I did not say the Lake of Fire. And I find it interesting that you realize that the demons and those dead in their sins do not go to the lake of fire until after the "1000 years," but you believe that the New Jeruselem is now, when it is mentioned after the lake of fire in the book of Revelation. It seems that although you have read the NT, you do not know it well, and you pick and chose how to interpret it.

About being born again, both Paul and Jesus equate that new birth with baptism. However, as Jesus says in the last chapter of Mark, it is possible to be baptised and to still lack faith. It is faith that saves. However, even the person who comes back to faith after falling away from the faith they received in their baptism must still look back to their baptism as the day of their rebirth. Lazarus came back from the dead after several days, but his birthday still would not have changed. Same thing goes for those who after being baptised return to the death of sin and unbelief.

[Anoetos]

About being born again, both Paul and Jesus equate that new birth with baptism. However, as Jesus says in the last chapter of Mark, it is possible to be baptised and to still lack faith. It is faith that saves. However, even the person who comes back to faith after falling away from the faith they received in their baptism must still look back to their baptism as the day of their rebirth. Lazarus came back from the dead after several days, but his birthday still would not have changed. Same thing goes for those who after being baptised return to the death of sin and unbelief.

Spoken like a true (and well catechized) Lutheran.

[Anoetos]

Where do all the bad folks go when they die?
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly
They go to the lake of fire and fry
Won't see 'em again 'til the Fourth of July!

From the old Meatpuppets song

[gary cook]

The greatest miracle is when God takes a person dead in sins, hostile to God, lost in darkness, and translates them in a person alive in the righteousness of Christ, friend of God, and walking in the light. This He does through the proclamation of His divine Word. "And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? (Rom 10:14).

God's revealed Word is the only trustworthy source of knowledge about God. Life after death experiences seem to always reflect the bliefs of the person who experiences the death. Universalists always come back saying that everybody goes to heaven. Works theologians always come back saying that all nice people are in heaven. I am sure that I would come back saying that only those who placed all their hope and faith in the crucified and risen Savior. I'll take God's Word over someone's experience any day.

Where do people go when they die? Jesus says that those who die in their sins go to a place of fire and suffering, while those who die in Him go to a place of comfort and joy. We call the first Hell, and the second Heaven. As far as the New Jeruselem, Revelation says that place will exist on the New Earth, which will not exist until this one has been taken away. It seems that you saw what you expected to see both times.

The fact that at the moment of your first death you called out to Jesus for mercy tells me that you had already heard of Him, but that you had not yet believed. However, your consience had already been pricked about the depth of your sin, so when you died, you expected to be going to hell, so that is what you experienced. It is also very likely that your expectation was precisely on target. Realizing this, you came to the end of yourself and trusted in the One who is merciful. It is His mercy and grace that saves you, and not "asking him into your heart." Faith is a gift from God that enables us to receive His mercy and grace. To God alone be the glory. Amen.No I did not expect to go to hell.As I believed in JESUS CHRIST alright,But had not accepted HIm into my heart as LORD and master.I had ask HIm to be lord.But had not accepted HIm as LORD.You see believing is not enough as demons all believe as well as most all people.But too be BORN OF GOD,Which is a new birth .We must repent,Ask HIM to enter and be willing to follow and abey HIm.Because HE is LORD No matter what.The differance is,Will we accept HIm now as LORD and master,or reject HIm as the one LEADING US.I had gone to church a lot .I was still drinking and doing what I wanted to do.This was the problem.I was shocked ,the 1st time I died.I did not know ,this being born again was a REAL BIRTH.It makes sense now,when I think about a natural birth .But of course this birth is of our spirits.But we know it when it happens.if we have not know this happening,Then I would say .it has not taken place.I have learned a great deal now that I have the HOLY GHOST with in me.Things I never thought of ,in my natural thinking.Think on this scripture,it is powerful,if you can SEE IT? 1john 4:17 it says we are like HIM now on earth.So this speaks of our spirits.

[Chytraeus]

No I did not expect to go to hell.As I believed in JESUS CHRIST alright,But had not accepted HIm into my heart as LORD and master.I had ask HIm to be lord.But had not accepted HIm as LORD.You see believing is not enough as demons all believe as well as most all people.But too be BORN OF GOD,Which is a new birth .We must repent,Ask HIM to enter and be willing to follow and abey HIm.Because HE is LORD No matter what.The differance is,Will we accept HIm now as LORD and master,or reject HIm as the one LEADING US.I had gone to church a lot .I was still drinking and doing what I wanted to do.This was the problem.I was shocked ,the 1st time I died.I did not know ,this being born again was a REAL BIRTH.It makes sense now,when I think about a natural birth .But of course this birth is of our spirits.But we know it when it happens.if we have not know this happening,Then I would say .it has not taken place.I have learned a great deal now that I have the HOLY GHOST with in me.Things I never thought of ,in my natural thinking.Think on this scripture,it is powerful,if you can SEE IT? 1john 4:17 it says we are like HIM now on earth.So this speaks of our spirits.
Perhaps your conscience knew better than you wanted to believe. Either way, that is really not the point. The point is, which is more important to you, the Word of God, or an experience you had while your body was shut down and your brain was dying (if you had experienced brain death we would probably not be having this conversation).

As you have been taught in your neo-evangelical modern church, the difference between true and false belief is all about "making Jesus both Savior and Lord of your life." I know, I spent enough time in the Campus Crusaders group to know all about it. The problem is when you really read the Bible, not just proof texts, then you realize that the whole scheam is built upon sand.

No, the difference between true and false faith is trust, and it is a quality that is completely unnatural to carnal man. The false believers know all the facts about Jesus, and they go through all the right motions, but they continue to trust in anything other than the completed work of Christ upon the cross, that He died in your place, taking all of your sins upon himself and giving you all of His righteousness. It is simillary to the difference between knowing all about how sturdy and comfortable chairs are, and actually sitting in one.

The story is told of a tight rope walker who was going to walk across the Grand Canyon. A crowd was gathered around to watch him. He asked the audience if they believed that he could walk accross the Grand Canyon without falling, and they all cheered. Then he pulled up a wheel barrel and asked them if they thought he could do it with the wheel barrel, and again they voiced their approval. Then he asked them if they believed he could walk accross the rope with a person in the wheel barrel, and once again they all said that they believed. So then he asked for a volunteer.

Of course, no one probably volunterred. It is one thing to believe that it can be done, but it is another to actually get in the wheel barrel. Faith in Christ is a lot like that. In the eyes of the world it looks at least as risky. Eternal life is a really important thing to put entirely in the hands of someone else, even if He claims to be God. So we trust in other things, our knowing about Jesus and going to church regularly, giving up on obvious sins, resisting sins of the heart, living outwardly pure and descent lives, choosing to follow Jesus, anything and everything to avoid placing our entire hope in one Man. Even we Lutherans, for whom this is the central article of our faith, fall prey to this "attitude of the flesh" as Luther foundly called it. We often believe that God will love us better because our doctrine is so pure. The very thing that we cling to in order to avoid trusting in the flesh becomes our trust in the flesh. The only cure is to truely repent.

Repenting is more agreeing with God about the condition of the human heart, that it is wicked beyond understanding and that it cannot be trusted, that there is nothing within us that deserves God's mercy, salvation and eternal life. This must be followed by trust that despite our lack of merit, He loves us and has mercy upon us anyway, that He forgives us all our sins and gives us eternal life for the sake of His Son, Christ Jesus, who took our sins from us.

You quote 1 John 4:17 "Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." This must be balanced by 1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." Because we are forgiven in Christ, in the realm of the Spirit we are already like Christ in this world, but because we still have the remnants of human flesh, we are not yet like Him, but we have this hope that we will be. Together they give us the confidence to live life before the face of God, proclaiming the Gospel, and when either our own consciences or the accusations of others point out our short comings, we can acknowledge our sin and trust in the One who both forgives our sin and cleanses us, sanctifies us, molds us to be more like Him.

Whatever you expected the first time, the second time you say you saw the New Jeruselem, which the Bible tells us is going to be on the New Earth, both of which will be made after this one is removed. However, you are not the first believer to have seen that image at the moment of death. What it is I do not know. I cannot take anything away from what you experienced either time, but I know that any experience is to be placed in submission to the Word of God, just as St. Paul did. He said that although he was given the gracious gift of a vision of heavenly things, that he did not boast of that, but he boasted in the fact that he was the chief of sinners, saved by the grace of God through the finished work of Christ Jesus.

However, you were not "born again" when you chose to follow Jesus as Lord, you were born again when you were baptized into Him (for you must be born of the water and the Spirit). You fell away from the faith that you received, because you allowed love of things of the world to choke the tender Gospel plant that grew from the seed placed in you by the Word of God. When you repented of your earthly living, those weeds were pulled out. Now, be cautious that you do not allow the weeds of modern "decesion theology" to take the place of the sins and love of the world that threatened to kill the plant earlier. Place your trust in what He has done for you, not in anything that you did, no matter how noble it appears to be.

If your faith is in anything that you have done (choosing to follow Jesus, actually following Him, doing the works that He would do) you will never know if it is enough, so you will never have confidence, and therefore will always lack trust (ie. faith). You will always be doing more, following harder, doing more apparently religious works, and never being satisfied, for those works are broken pots that cannot hold water. Instead, go to the fountain that ever flows fresh, living water, Christ Jesus, and trust only in Him, for He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

[Chytraeus]

Spoken like a true (and well catechized) Lutheran.
Is that bad?

[gary cook]

I was dead both times,once our spirit leaves the body we are dead.I have had many miracles and healings.And as far as being born again.I was born again before I was baptisted .The new birth is ,a new perfect spirit.It can not be seen with natural eyes.That is why we are like our LORD now.I belong to nothing upon the earth .I do go to a church,But the one I go too.Is because the LORD told me too.I have many testamonys and never gave them hardley.Until my LORD JESUS CHRIST told me to start telling others.GOD is the GOD of MIRCALES,is one greater than another for HIm.I do not want to affend you,but see,your wisdom has come from man and not the holy ghost.My one son,was also dropped at birth,by his nurse and was dead.I guess brain dead?They tried for about 20 minutes to bring the baby back.But gave up.After all walked away.My wife and I prayed for the child and ,His spirit also returned to his body.He is 11 now healthy and well.He took a testnation wide foir His age group and was counted in the top 9% in this nation.When the LORD told me to give my testamonys.I started typing,I typed 14 of miracles and did not type all.Most people never see a miracle or do not know it when it happens.The problem as I see it?Is most do not have a personal relationship with the LORd.Do you understand?OUr LORD gave HIS BLOOD,For our spirits,That they would become NEW CREATURES,NOT OF THIS WORLD,MADE ANEW.Nothing of the old was good or sin less.We had to be remade.Without this,We only have words.2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
This was telling of this time on earth,Since the LORD gave HIS BLOOD.Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh:The outward man will die.What will be left?is our spirits which go to NEW JERUSALEM or I believe to the center of the earth,to await judgement. of course this speaks about our spirits,because the flesh cannot help but sin,if left in control.1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
The just live by FAITH.Faith in what we do not see.But We have thec very spirit of GOD.All power is in the HOLY SPIRIT .Nothing is impossiable for us.We do not have too obey the laws of nature.As We clearly see.Many acts by the HOLY GHOST that are beyond the natural.Our eyes decieve us.Because we can believe the impossable and see it come to pass.As I have many times .People are limited by there faith.I have many testamonys at tribulationforce.Not all by any means.I am no great being.But a person who has been born of GOD and believed all HE SAYS,as a child would believe his dad.I do not follow men or groups.I put my full trust in the LORd and rely on ther HOLY GHOST always.I ask HIM many things.As I need them in life.Because HE will tell us.What we cannot seein the natural,and what we do not know of earth and new jerusalem.The LORD took every sin from me,My spirit is perfect and clean.This is who we are.Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This birth is just as profound as the flesh birth.But is in our spirits.
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Our spirits are enternal.They must be born again.:eek:

[gary cook]

I do want to add,A part of the way we overcome,is by our testamonys.Our testamonys give glory to GOD,though JESUS CHRIST.As most are just a person crying out for mercy and help.We do little ,but seeking HIS MERCY.By FAITH we recieve HIS MERCY.But without belonging to HIm,we have little chance of seeing the things HE wants to bless us with .

[Chytraeus]

I was dead both times,once our spirit leaves the body we are dead.I have had many miracles and healings.And as far as being born again.I was born again before I was baptisted .The new birth is ,a new perfect spirit.It can not be seen with natural eyes.That is why we are like our LORD now.I belong to nothing upon the earth .I do go to a church,But the one I go too.Is because the LORD told me too.I have many testamonys and never gave them hardley.Until my LORD JESUS CHRIST told me to start telling others.GOD is the GOD of MIRCALES,is one greater than another for HIm.I do not want to affend you,but see,your wisdom has come from man and not the holy ghost.My one son,was also dropped at birth,by his nurse and was dead.I guess brain dead?They tried for about 20 minutes to bring the baby back.But gave up.After all walked away.My wife and I prayed for the child and ,His spirit also returned to his body.He is 11 now healthy and well.He took a testnation wide foir His age group and was counted in the top 9% in this nation.When the LORD told me to give my testamonys.I started typing,I typed 14 of miracles and did not type all.Most people never see a miracle or do not know it when it happens.The problem as I see it?Is most do not have a personal relationship with the LORd.Do you understand?OUr LORD gave HIS BLOOD,For our spirits,That they would become NEW CREATURES,NOT OF THIS WORLD,MADE ANEW.Nothing of the old was good or sin less.We had to be remade.Without this,We only have words.2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
This was telling of this time on earth,Since the LORD gave HIS BLOOD.Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh:The outward man will die.What will be left?is our spirits which go to NEW JERUSALEM or I believe to the center of the earth,to await judgement. of course this speaks about our spirits,because the flesh cannot help but sin,if left in control.1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
The just live by FAITH.Faith in what we do not see.But We have thec very spirit of GOD.All power is in the HOLY SPIRIT .Nothing is impossiable for us.We do not have too obey the laws of nature.As We clearly see.Many acts by the HOLY GHOST that are beyond the natural.Our eyes decieve us.Because we can believe the impossable and see it come to pass.As I have many times .People are limited by there faith.I have many testamonys at tribulationforce.Not all by any means.I am no great being.But a person who has been born of GOD and believed all HE SAYS,as a child would believe his dad.I do not follow men or groups.I put my full trust in the LORd and rely on ther HOLY GHOST always.I ask HIM many things.As I need them in life.Because HE will tell us.What we cannot seein the natural,and what we do not know of earth and new jerusalem.The LORD took every sin from me,My spirit is perfect and clean.This is who we are.Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This birth is just as profound as the flesh birth.But is in our spirits.
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Our spirits are enternal.They must be born again.:eek:
You say that I have wisdom from men, and not from the Holy Ghost. All I told you I have from the Word of God. If I speak to you from the Word of God and you accuse me of having wisdom from men, where do you think this wisdom from the Holy Ghost comes from. I told you that Paul saw things at least as great as you saw, but he would not boast in those. Rather, his testimony was in the way God worked strongly in areas where Paul seemed weak, unwise, and timid.

When Paul boasted in the fact that he was stoned and left for dead, it was not a boast about a great mirical, but a boast in the fact that although he was too weak to prevent this abuse, God continued to use him powerfully to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. Paul had many more testimonies about miracles than you or I ever could, but he did not go about telling about those, but all he preached was Christ crucified. I am sure that when the Corinthians had worldly wise teachers telling the simple that there was no resurrection of the body that he could have said, "I know there is, because I died and went to heaven once and saw it with my own eyes." Instead, he pointed to the resurrection of Christ Jesus, as Scripture testified through many witnesses.

As far as your point about rebirth being a thing seperate from Baptism, you are not arguing with me, but with the Word of God, for it is God's Word that links rebirth to baptism. Romans 6, Titus 3, John 3, and Collosians all link baptism to spiritual rebirth. The words of John the baptizer say as much, for he spoke of the One who would come after him would would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire. John did not say that Jesus would not baptize with water (the word baptize (dipped) makes no sense out of the context of water). And in fact, when Jesus came He immediately taught His disciples to baptize people with water, and encouraged them to continue to doing so after His resurrection. Mark says, "Who ever is baptized and believes will be saved." Rebirth and salvation are linked by Jesus, who says that a man cannot see or enter the kingdom of Heaven unless he is born again. What is salvation if not the guarantee that in the next life we will not only see and enter heaven, but live there forever with God?

Read the Gospels carefully and you will discover an amazing pattern. Nearly everytime Jesus performed a great miracle of healing or casting out demons, who told those healed not to tell people what had happened. He told them not to testify about the healing! Why would He do this? I believe that it is because He did not want people to believe that He was God based upon his miracles (even though He condemned the Pharisees for not believing what He said even though He performed miracles) but He wanted His divinity made known through His death and resurrection. Isn't that the sign He always told people looking for a sign to look for? "They will be given no sign except for the sign of Jonah. Just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish for three days so the Son of Man will be in the belly of the earth for three days."

So, this is my testimony, that Christ Jesus died for my sins, and that therefore I am forgiven all my sins and have peace with God. I have others, but this is the greatest. As far as weather or not you and your son were clinically dead, I have no argument. About the spirit leaving the body, I cannot ever know. I do not think that you can know for certain yourself. I know that in this body I have believed that things happened that I later learned did not. I have almost vivid memories of events that others assured me never took place. If I cannot be certain of things that I believe I have seen with living eyes, I would not presume to assert as fact things I see when my body appears to be dead. I am not doubting that God can do the things you claim He did for you. I am just saying that you need to be careful to prove all things with the Word of God, including your experience. Are what you saw and the things you believe God is telling now in accordance with His written Word? He did not give that priceless gift to us for us to proof text. He want us to read it, study it, inwardly digest it, and live it.

So, you say that God tells you to do things, carefully read His Word and be certain that what you have heard is in accordance to what He has written there. If that is man's wisdom, then I do not want this "spiritual" wisdom you speak of. As a brother in Christ, I am telling you to be cautious of hearing God outside of His Word, for He never told us to seek Him that way. We are to seek God's will in His Word.

The last person who told me that they were attending a church because God "told" them to was a member of a body of people who's doctrines clearly contradicted the Word of God, whose manner of life was deeply mired by sin (gossip mostly). God wants us to be members of congregations that all believe the same thing because they all believe the Word of God. He wants us to be in places where His Gospel is proclaimed in all of its sweet purity, not in places where there is a confusion of voices and teachings. He does not want us in churches that teach a mixture of salvation by works and salvation by faith, as Paul told the believers in Galatia. He told them to get rid of those teachers of a false gospel. So, is your church a biblical chuch, where people are encouraged to place their faith in Christ alone? If so, then stay there. If not, then God never told you to go there, no matter what your experience says to the contrary.

That is why I caution any trust in experience. Trust only in that will of God revealed in Holy Scripture, for all visions, spiritual voices, and experiences can deceive you. Satan goes about pretending to be an angel of light, looking for someone to deceive. Those who trust in experiences are easy pray. That is why God gave us His written Word, so that we may not be like drift wood, tossed about upon the waves of experience and fad doctrines. Read God's Word, all of it, but especially the New Testament, for the Gospel is most clearly revealed there. Then put all your experiences to the test of His Word.

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

The Word and experience often complement one another. But everyone should beware the danger of excess---whether in experience or in knowledge of the Word. If we take the things God has given us and use them to promote ourselves, we stumble. If we think we are better than others and feel we deserve to have the last word, either by virtue of knowledge or experience, we have distorted the good gifts of God. But if we use these things in harmony and to serve God and one another, we'll have done the right thing....

[gary cook]

You say that I have wisdom from men, and not from the Holy Ghost. All I told you I have from the Word of God. If I speak to you from the Word of God and you accuse me of having wisdom from men, where do you think this wisdom from the Holy Ghost comes from. I told you that Paul saw things at least as great as you saw, but he would not boast in those. Rather, his testimony was in the way God worked strongly in areas where Paul seemed weak, unwise, and timid.

When Paul boasted in the fact that he was stoned and left for dead, it was not a boast about a great mirical, but a boast in the fact that although he was too weak to prevent this abuse, God continued to use him powerfully to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. Paul had many more testimonies about miracles than you or I ever could, but he did not go about telling about those, but all he preached was Christ crucified. I am sure that when the Corinthians had worldly wise teachers telling the simple that there was no resurrection of the body that he could have said, "I know there is, because I died and went to heaven once and saw it with my own eyes." Instead, he pointed to the resurrection of Christ Jesus, as Scripture testified through many witnesses.

As far as your point about rebirth being a thing seperate from Baptism, you are not arguing with me, but with the Word of God, for it is God's Word that links rebirth to baptism. Romans 6, Titus 3, John 3, and Collosians all link baptism to spiritual rebirth. The words of John the baptizer say as much, for he spoke of the One who would come after him would would baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire. John did not say that Jesus would not baptize with water (the word baptize (dipped) makes no sense out of the context of water). And in fact, when Jesus came He immediately taught His disciples to baptize people with water, and encouraged them to continue to doing so after His resurrection. Mark says, "Who ever is baptized and believes will be saved." Rebirth and salvation are linked by Jesus, who says that a man cannot see or enter the kingdom of Heaven unless he is born again. What is salvation if not the guarantee that in the next life we will not only see and enter heaven, but live there forever with God?

Read the Gospels carefully and you will discover an amazing pattern. Nearly everytime Jesus performed a great miracle of healing or casting out demons, who told those healed not to tell people what had happened. He told them not to testify about the healing! Why would He do this? I believe that it is because He did not want people to believe that He was God based upon his miracles (even though He condemned the Pharisees for not believing what He said even though He performed miracles) but He wanted His divinity made known through His death and resurrection. Isn't that the sign He always told people looking for a sign to look for? "They will be given no sign except for the sign of Jonah. Just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish for three days so the Son of Man will be in the belly of the earth for three days."

So, this is my testimony, that Christ Jesus died for my sins, and that therefore I am forgiven all my sins and have peace with God. I have others, but this is the greatest. As far as weather or not you and your son were clinically dead, I have no argument. About the spirit leaving the body, I cannot ever know. I do not think that you can know for certain yourself. I know that in this body I have believed that things happened that I later learned did not. I have almost vivid memories of events that others assured me never took place. If I cannot be certain of things that I believe I have seen with living eyes, I would not presume to assert as fact things I see when my body appears to be dead. I am not doubting that God can do the things you claim He did for you. I am just saying that you need to be careful to prove all things with the Word of God, including your experience. Are what you saw and the things you believe God is telling now in accordance with His written Word? He did not give that priceless gift to us for us to proof text. He want us to read it, study it, inwardly digest it, and live it.

So, you say that God tells you to do things, carefully read His Word and be certain that what you have heard is in accordance to what He has written there. If that is man's wisdom, then I do not want this "spiritual" wisdom you speak of. As a brother in Christ, I am telling you to be cautious of hearing God outside of His Word, for He never told us to seek Him that way. We are to seek God's will in His Word.

The last person who told me that they were attending a church because God "told" them to was a member of a body of people who's doctrines clearly contradicted the Word of God, whose manner of life was deeply mired by sin (gossip mostly). God wants us to be members of congregations that all believe the same thing because they all believe the Word of God. He wants us to be in places where His Gospel is proclaimed in all of its sweet purity, not in places where there is a confusion of voices and teachings. He does not want us in churches that teach a mixture of salvation by works and salvation by faith, as Paul told the believers in Galatia. He told them to get rid of those teachers of a false gospel. So, is your church a biblical chuch, where people are encouraged to place their faith in Christ alone? If so, then stay there. If not, then God never told you to go there, no matter what your experience says to the contrary.

That is why I caution any trust in experience. Trust only in that will of God revealed in Holy Scripture, for all visions, spiritual voices, and experiences can deceive you. Satan goes about pretending to be an angel of light, looking for someone to deceive. Those who trust in experiences are easy pray. That is why God gave us His written Word, so that we may not be like drift wood, tossed about upon the waves of experience and fad doctrines. Read God's Word, all of it, but especially the New Testament, for the Gospel is most clearly revealed there. Then put all your experiences to the test of His Word.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
You understand?One of the ways we overcome is by our testamonys.
yes brother paul gave many.
Once I did not,but the LORD told me to start. now I do.It is not bragging to tell the truth.It helps others to have faith.
God could not save mankind?He had to make a new creature.You see?He could not save the fallen angel!Because sin effect every part of our beings.So We must be reborn!Where would this rebirth take place?Well,GOD is a spirit 1st So we must be also.Because we were made in HIS image.Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever. 2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Our spirits must be born again!
HE IS TALKING ABOUT OUR SPIRITS HERE> 2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
He is with in GODS KIDS,To talk with us and teach us!
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
We must hear HIM!HE gave us HIS OWN SPIRIT to teach us.If we willnot listen to HIm.Then what?
We live by FAITh.Believing GODS WORD.Trusting in HIm.Not fearing,What if?HE has us in HIS hands.
We are given power over demons.They can not touch us.Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. He does not say MAYBE!
1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
This is how our NEW SPIRIT is!If we are born of gOD!

[gary cook]

Salutations,

Grace and peace from Utah.

Gary: Thanks for recounting those episodes.

I would have thought this thread would have generated more response. Either it's been discussed extensively on a prior thread or this is just a fuzzy area in most people's theology.

Mossrose: "However, I don't believe that sort of miracle occurs today."

Isn't this kind of arbitrary? Is "that sort of miracle" only resurrection? Or I guess maybe I'd ask what miracles do still occur today in your view.

Sheepdog: "personally, i don't care much for visions. God can use them to communicate to us, but the problem is, the devil can too."

Just curious, is there a biblical precedent for God's people being deceived by demonically inspired visions? I'm not sure this is a medium the demonic can easily replicate. Do you apply the same criterion to dreams?

These are just some questions that came to mind while reading through the posts...

In Christ,
t.rexAll that is in the new testament.There is a new rest ,the rivers of living water ,are a real experiance.raising the dead.My mom and boy both came back.Healings.HAD lots.I prayed for my wife.She did not like me.My home.free .My 2 little kids.My wife could not have kids.I have a number of testamonys at tribulationforce.The one joe runs.Once a guy opened a news paper here.His a bee about3"by 4" and gave some clues.Each week ,except one.We got it for about a couple of months.He said he kept making it harder.But how do
you keep getting it.I said,I ask the holy ghost,he tells us.Nothing has changed since the LORD died.Only our faith and our yeilding to the LORD.BY fasting and reading his word!

[jason]

Thank you for sharing Gary

Jason

[Chytraeus]

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
You understand?One of the ways we overcome is by our testamonys.
yes brother paul gave many.
Once I did not,but the LORD told me to start. now I do.It is not bragging to tell the truth.It helps others to have faith.
God could not save mankind?He had to make a new creature.You see?He could not save the fallen angel!Because sin effect every part of our beings.So We must be reborn!Where would this rebirth take place?Well,GOD is a spirit 1st So we must be also.Because we were made in HIS image.Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever. 2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Our spirits must be born again!
HE IS TALKING ABOUT OUR SPIRITS HERE> 2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
He is with in GODS KIDS,To talk with us and teach us!
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
We must hear HIM!HE gave us HIS OWN SPIRIT to teach us.If we willnot listen to HIm.Then what?
We live by FAITh.Believing GODS WORD.Trusting in HIm.Not fearing,What if?HE has us in HIS hands.
We are given power over demons.They can not touch us.Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. He does not say MAYBE!
1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
This is how our NEW SPIRIT is!If we are born of gOD!
So I understand by now that the purpose of this post was not to rationally discuss this subject, but to continue saying the same thing until everyone agrees with you.

Personal testimoney is not the central focus of the Gospel, it is the message of what Christ Jesus did for us all on the Cross. My testimoney, like St. Paul before me, is that I am a sinner who has been saved by the grace of God given to me by the sacrificial death of my Lord Jesus Christ. St. Paul, as far as we can tell, only gave his testimoney about the heavenly vision once, and then only to show that the so-called super-apostles had nothing on him. He quickly backed away from that testimoney to return to his former testimoney of a man full of weakenesses and sins whom God was never-the-less able to use in powerful ways. This timid, sickly bachlor appears to have almost single handedly converted the known Gentile world to the faith of Jesus Christ. That was his testimoney, "God is so powerful that He can use even the likes of me, the chief of sinners, the least of the apostles, a former persecuter of the faith I now am compelled to proclaim."

You quote the verse from Rev. 12 and say that part of the way we overcome is through testimonies, but you give no reson for this interpretation. I have always understood overcoming to refer to the pray of Jesus for His followers in John 14-16, that we would resist the temptations of the flesh and the world through remaining in faith in Him. Unless you can show me a Scriptural reason to understand this differently, I am unconvinced.

As far as the other verses you quoted, yes, I understand that the new birth is Spiritual, but that in no way means that it does not come to us through the Word and Water of Baptism. Titus 3:3-7 "For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." As Paul talks about regeneration, another word for new birth, he uses language like "washing" and "poured out" which are directly related to Baptism. This was no mistake or idle talk, he used baptismal language to talk about regeration on purpose.

In Romans 6 Paul explains that we are not to go on sinning because we are no longer slaves of sin, but new creatures, and again he talks about Baptism. Rom. 6:3-11 "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

It was not anyone's man-made idea that we are reborn in the Holy Spirit in Baptism, this is the very testimoney of the Word of God itself. Those who claim that these words of Paul are not talking about water baptism have no basis in the Word itself for that claim. It is simply that human reason cannot imagine why the Holy Spirit would bind Himself to such ordinary things as spoken words and water. They think that it is not proper to claim that God has to use such things to reach us. However, it is not an insult to God, for He Himself has chosen to come to us in these ways. These same people would have been scandalized by Jesus too, for He did not appear to be anyone great when He came, but He was an uneducated carpenter from a small northern town, from the wrong side of the tracks, as they used to say in my hometown.

As far as the discriptions of heaven and hell given in the book of Revelation, I suspect that the realities of both of those are beyond our current understanding, and that those are human words attempting to describe the undescribable. I may be wrong, and I may find the New Jeruselem filled with streets of clear gold, but I suspect that the reality behind the vision is much greater, much more wonderful than our limited imaginations can now comprehend.

However, we do not need to wait until we die and have visions of the afterlife to get a glimps of it, for God has given us a fortaste in our worship together. As we gather together to hear the Word of God, to confess our sinfulness and dependance upon His grace, to receive again and again His forgiveness for our sins, to feast upon the Body and Blood of our Savior in Holy Communion, to sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, we get a glimps of the eternal feast of the Lamb and His Bride (the Church) in eternity.

One of the best commentaries I ever read on the book of Revelation described how the entire book is written along the form of the ancient liturgy used for worship found in a few 1st and 2nd century documents. It is like St. John took the common liturgy used for worship and used it as an outline to express the heavenly vision he received from the Lord. What a beautiful concept, that everytime we worship together we join in with all the saints who came before us and all who will follow until the return of our Lord if a fortaste of the wedding feast of the Lamb and the Church.

We are truly living a victorious life, no matter what our weekly experience may say to the contrary if we take that vision to heart.

[gary cook]

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.
This is a spiritual birth,WE KNOW IT WHEN WE HAVE IT!

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
OUR TESTAMONYS ARE VERY IMPORTANT.But if you have none?I guess it would not be?
THEY ALL HAD TESTAMONYS.AS WE SEE MANY MIRACLES DONE BY THESE HOLY MEN OF GOD!Have you had many miracles?
I guess you also know?These signs will follow them.Do they follow YOU?
You see ?We should be walking the KINGDOM WALK.AS THE KINGDOM IS POWER .And not just words.Most live by words .Never experiancing the POWER.As we see?We are made over?Just like our LORD JESUS CHRIST.You believe this?How powerful is this scripture?Where are we just like HIM?1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

[gary cook]

JESUS CHRIST IS THE NEW TESTAMENT.WE HAVE LIFE THOUGH HIM.WE ARE IN HIM.And HE in us!HE IS OUR EXAMPLE.WE FOLLOW HIM.HE AROSE .WE RISE ALSO.
YOU BELIEVE THIS?2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
I can tell you it is true.As i traveled millions of miles in a blink.And came back that quick.WHY?1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
YOU BELIEVE THIS?
And where are we just like HE is in NEW JERUSALEM we are here?
In our spirits.This NEW CREATURE ,HE HAS MADE US!The part of us that goes to our city!

[Chytraeus]

I guess you already know all about me, so I don't need to answer you. You have already labled me as a "spiritless, letter-of-the-law" person, and nothing I say will convince you otherwise, unless I have and will boast of experiences just like the ones you have and boast of. I have shown you how Paul did not boast of these kinds of experiences, but rather in that Jesus died for him. I have even shown you how Jesus sought to be known as devine not by his miracles, but by his death on the cross. I have shown you that God uses means of both the Word and sacraments like baptism and Holy Communion to perform the greatest miracle of all, which is regeneration, salvation of the lost sinner, but you turn around and quote only part of the same verses as though they were against what I showed you with the whole context.

I could take God's Word out of context and prove to you that there is no God, but then I would be talking like a fool, for in context the verse actually says the exact opposite. The new birth is not some mystical experience, but a reality demonstrated through visible signs and audible words. I know that these things are not exciting enough to keep your attention, so you look for miracles and signs that are impressive to man, while the real miracle is dispised by you as being "spiritless".

How do you know you travled "millions of miles?" Where does the Bible tell us how far away the New Jeruselem is from this earth? Revelation says that the New Jersuselem is on the New Earth, which will be created when this one passes away, so the distance is not measured in space but in time. Unless you can actually start discussing this rationally and not just throwing around the same proof texts all the time, we have nothing to discuss here.

I am just not impressed by your claim of miracles. I have seen and experienced my share of miraculous healings, and I rejoiced in all of them, as those healed were dear to me, but my boast is still that Jesus knows me, and that He took all of my sins as far away from me as the east is from the west. But along with my experience of miracles, I also have had my fair share of "thorns in the flesh." When Christ finally began to take hold of my life I did not win back the love of my wife, she was disgusted with my new found faith and left. I have never won the lotery because God revealed the numbers to me in a dream, instead I have struggled from one low paying job to another, although I have many gifts and talents that should be able to land me a good job. But His grace is sufficient for me, just as it was for Paul, and that will always be my boast. If that makes me less than spiritual to you, then so be it, but in the end, it will be Christ who will judge me, not you.