Torah and the Law - What is eternal and what is binding?

[shunyadragon]

The purpose of this thread is to understand the different views within and outside Judaism concerning the nature of the Torah and what is the law to be followed. The extreme view is the whole Torah both writen and oral is binding, but I consider this unrealistic. I will cruise the net a bit and add some things, but to begin I would like to hear some of the views from the student body.

[shunyadragon]

Midrash? The interpretation of scripture or scripture interpreted. Does midrash make scripture less binding?

[Pitiricus]

Midrash? The interpretation of scripture or scripture interpreted. Does midrash make scripture less binding?
No... What is binding is the Halacha as supported by a majority of rabbis... :-)

[Timothy Leary]

My view is that only scripture is binding

[shunyadragon]

My view is that only scripture is binding
What role does midrash play in your belief?

[geebob]

The purpose of this thread is to understand the different views within and outside Judaism

from outside normal judaism:

Jesus fulfilled the law thus it is no longer binding. But is the law irrelevent? Paul told Timothy that all scripture is God breathed and is useful. And what scripture did they have? The Torah and other "old testament" scriptures (is Tanach(sp?) the prefered term?).

So how is it useful if it is fulfilled and nonbinding. We are to read the torah and see what it is that God was trying to accomplish with these scriptures and commands and how they improved society.

I like the following example. Farmers were to harvest there feilds but leave the borders unharvested. What on earth would this be for? it seems just wasteful. But in fact, this was a smart welfare system for that time. The outside of the feild was left for the poor to harvest. So they were taken care of and yet they weren't given a free handout denigrating their responsibility to take care of themselves.

Can we apply such a rule today? Not in the least. So what if a farmer leaves the outside of his feild unharvested. inner city empoverished people are not going to come out of the city and harvest there own wheat and attempt to find a wheat mill that will let them process the wheat themselves so they could cook the bread themselves.

But I like an example that isn't quite a fulfillment of this law but it is in the right direction in a small way. I heard a preacher from chicago who mentioned that in his church, around christmas time, every member of the congregation who could afford to buy gifts for there families was to buy doubles of every gift. The extra was given to the church and the church would sell them to the poor for 10 percent of the original price. So that way a poor father or mother could afford to give decent gifts to their own children from the sweet of their own brow. They would be fulfilling there responsibility that they for their own self worth need to fulfill. It would be from their own labor and sacrifice and they could be proud to give the gifts to their children. it wouldn't be free, hence it wouldn't be "charity" that some may feel sheepish of taking.

[Sacrificial Ram]

from outside normal judaism:

Jesus fulfilled the law thus it is no longer binding. But is the law irrelevent? Paul told Timothy that all scripture is God breathed and is useful. And what scripture did they have? The Torah and other "old testament" scriptures (is Tanach(sp?) the prefered term?).

So how is it useful if it is fulfilled and nonbinding. We are to read the torah and see what it is that God was trying to accomplish with these scriptures and commands and how they improved society.

I like the following example. Farmers were to harvest there feilds but leave the borders unharvested. What on earth would this be for? it seems just wasteful. But in fact, this was a smart welfare system for that time. The outside of the feild was left for the poor to harvest. So they were taken care of and yet they weren't given a free handout denigrating their responsibility to take care of themselves.

Can we apply such a rule today? Not in the least. So what if a farmer leaves the outside of his feild unharvested. inner city empoverished people are not going to come out of the city and harvest there own wheat and attempt to find a wheat mill that will let them process the wheat themselves so they could cook the bread themselves.

But I like an example that isn't quite a fulfillment of this law but it is in the right direction in a small way. I heard a preacher from chicago who mentioned that in his church, around christmas time, every member of the congregation who could afford to buy gifts for there families was to buy doubles of every gift. The extra was given to the church and the church would sell them to the poor for 10 percent of the original price. So that way a poor father or mother could afford to give decent gifts to their own children from the sweet of their own brow. They would be fulfilling there responsibility that they for their own self worth need to fulfill. It would be from their own labor and sacrifice and they could be proud to give the gifts to their children. it wouldn't be free, hence it wouldn't be "charity" that some may feel sheepish of taking.


Of course, Jesus did not fullfill anything for the Jews. And the law was not binding on the Gentiles to begin with, except for the noahidic laws.

[Timothy Leary]

What role does midrash play in your belief?

Even in Orthodoxy, Midrash is not considered "legally binding". In fact, the son of a (formerly) Orthodox family I know in Holland was at prohibited from studying midrash as a child, the Rabbis were afraid he'd take them too literally.

Midrash are just stories used in order to teach a lesson. Sorta like a parable.

[shunyadragon]

Even in Orthodoxy, Midrash is not considered "legally binding". In fact, the son of a (formerly) Orthodox family I know in Holland was at prohibited from studying midrash as a child, the Rabbis were afraid he'd take them too literally.

Midrash are just stories used in order to teach a lesson. Sorta like a parable.
I looked over some midrash on the net and I considered it more like sermons in Christianity giving interpretation, and deeper more meaning to the law. Some of it appeared to be instructions and advice on how best to follow the law. From what I saw I would not consider midrash itself binding.

I did not see any that were presented as parables. If there are I would like to see some.

Good examples of different kinds of midrash would be interesting and helpful.

Are there significantly different interpretations of the law in the midrash of different denominations?

[shunyadragon]

from outside normal judaism:

Jesus fulfilled the law thus it is no longer binding. But is the law irrelevent? Paul told Timothy that all scripture is God breathed and is useful. And what scripture did they have? The Torah and other "old testament" scriptures (is Tanach(sp?) the prefered term?).
This where the leap from Jesus of the gospels to Paul causes problems. Jesus observed the law, in some instances changed law and offered what could be interpreted as midrash for observing the law. Nothing in the teachings of Jesus or prophesy says the law will not be binding in the future.

Paul on the other hand taught that the law was not binding, which contradicts the OT and Christ. This was the beginning of the Greco-Roman church. Constantine and the church fathers took the church further from its roots and completly alienated the Jewish community and corrupted Christiantiy.

[/QUOTE]

[Timothy Leary]

I looked over some midrash on the net and I considered it more like sermons in Christianity giving interpretation, and deeper more meaning to the law. Some of it appeared to be instructions and advice on how best to follow the law. From what I saw I would not consider midrash itself binding.

I did not see any that were presented as parables. If there are I would like to see some.

Good examples of different kinds of midrash would be interesting and helpful.

Are there significantly different interpretations of the law in the midrash of different denominations?

Midrash may contain scriptural interperetations within them, but no sect views them as "legally binding".

Jacob Neusner gives the following definition:

The term midrash means "investigation." It can refer to:

* a method of exegesis,
* a document compliling the results of exegesis, or
* to a method based upon principles.

Midrash works in three dimensions:

* as an explication of the meaning of a text (exegesis)
* a method of stating important propositions, syllogisms of thought, in a conversation with the scriptures (hermeneutics), and
* "as a way of retelling scriptural stories that imparts new immediacy to these stories." (a response in a conversation with God)

Most Midrash I've been taught were just a way of teaching a concept through a story.

[Pitiricus]

Even in Orthodoxy, Midrash is not considered "legally binding". In fact, the son of a (formerly) Orthodox family I know in Holland was at prohibited from studying midrash as a child, the Rabbis were afraid he'd take them too literally.

Midrash are just stories used in order to teach a lesson. Sorta like a parable.
It is if it contains a rule which is accepted by a majority of rabbis...

As hashkafa, it is subjected to the free will. As Halacha it is binding...

[barryrob]

The purpose of this thread is to understand the different views within and outside Judaism concerning the nature of the Torah and what is the law to be followed. The extreme view is the whole Torah both writen and oral is binding, but I consider this unrealistic. I will cruise the net a bit and add some things, but to begin I would like to hear some of the views from the student body.

Jesus put in very clearly here:-




Matthew 22:35-40
And one of them, versed in the Law, asked, testing him: 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 He said to him: "‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."

Jesus was quoting from:-





Deuteronomy 6:5
And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force.





Deuteronomy 10:12
"And now, O Israel, what is Jehovah your God asking of you but to fear Jehovah your God, so as to walk in all his ways and to love him and to serve Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul;












Leviticus 19:18
"‘You must not take vengeance nor have a grudge against the sons of your people; and you must love your fellow as yourself. I am Jehovah.





Barryrob

[Pitiricus]

Jesus put in very clearly here:-






Matthew 22:35-40




And one of them, versed in the Law, asked, testing him: 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 He said to him: "‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."





Jesus was quoting from:-









Deuteronomy 6:5




And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force.









Deuteronomy 10:12




"And now, O Israel, what is Jehovah your God asking of you but to fear Jehovah your God, so as to walk in all his ways and to love him and to serve Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul;






















Leviticus 19:18




"‘You must not take vengeance nor have a grudge against the sons of your people; and you must love your fellow as yourself. I am Jehovah.









Barryrob
I guess plagiarism was de mise in Jesus< time... Because I much prefer Hillel!

[geebob]

This where the leap from Jesus of the gospels to Paul causes problems. Jesus observed the law, in some instances changed law and offered what could be interpreted as midrash for observing the law. Nothing in the teachings of Jesus or prophesy says the law will not be binding in the future.

as in the last thread in which you responded to me Shunya, you will find that I will directly answer the question, or I will expect my questions to be directly answered. And in both cases, presumptions are generally granted depending upon the issue.

I have not mastered Jesus specific and nuanced usage in the law, and my answer here was in no way shape or form relys on that. And in my book, that is marvelous. there needs to be a more humility in the scope of what we attempt in these discussions if they are to be really fruitful.

So what did I answer?

this little bit here.

The purpose of this thread is to understand the different views within and outside Judaism concerning the nature of the Torah and what is the law to be followed.

that's what you asked. that's what you got. and in answering this, there need be no effort in an attempt to explain all problems, diffifulties, and misunderstandings from a paradigm outside of normal judaism. I gave a distinctive christian understanding of the torah and how it is to be followed. It is a distinctive Christian understanding that may have some conflict with the teachings of Jesus, but in fact that remains to be seen. and in the meantime, there is an understanding of the significance of both Jesus and paul that I have given.

Now your question/claim, is an important one, worthy of discussion and study and something I am in the process of learning myself. But a lack of an answer in no way consitutes an immeadiate detraction of what I mentioned. You interpret Jesus one way. Good. But not everyone interprets him as you do, and to give an answer to a related issue by no means requires that one has all other loose ends down. If that were the case, no paradigm would ever be possible, be it Judaism, Christianity, Newtonian physics, liberalism, capitalism, and so on. And thus we couldn't have to many interesting discussions.

[Goose]

The Torah of HaShem is perfect. If someone contradicts Torah, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. The Torah is what one uses to judge whether one is of HaShem. Period. Case closed.

[shunyadragon]

Jesus put in very clearly here:- Matthew 22:35-40 And one of them, versed in the Law, asked, testing him: 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 He said to him: "‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."

Jesus was quoting from:-

Deuteronomy 6:5 And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force.

Deuteronomy 10:12 "And now, O Israel, what is Jehovah your God asking of you but to fear Jehovah your God, so as to walk in all his ways and to love him and to serve Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul;

Leviticus 19:18 "‘You must not take vengeance nor have a grudge against the sons of your people; and you must love your fellow as yourself. I am Jehovah.


This part would be accepted by almost everyone Christian and Jew, but does not address the law of the Torah as a whole. What the most important laws are does not address the importance of the Torah and observing the body of law it contains.

Christ apparently observed the Torah and its laws, but Christians today do not.

[barryrob]

Christ apparently observed the Torah and its laws, but Christians today do not.This is quote true.


The whole purpose of the Law is:-



Galatians 3:23-25




However, before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law, being delivered up together into custody, looking to the faith that was destined to be revealed. Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. 25 But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor.





Barryrob

[shunyadragon]

This is quote true.

The whole purpose of the Law is:-Galatians 3:23-25


However, before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law, being delivered up together into custody, looking to the faith that was destined to be revealed. Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. 25 But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor.
Then are the Ten Commandments are no longer valid from Mount Sinai?

Your reading of this is highly interpretive. I can interprete this to indicate the following of the new covenent, but not indicating that the the following of the Torah was no longer valid.

This does not explain why Christ followed the Torah and did not say anything to indicate that it would not be followed.

[barryrob]

Then are the Ten Commandments are no longer valid from Mount Sinai?

Your reading of this is highly interpretive. I can interprete this to indicate the following of the new covenent, but not indicating that the the following of the Torah was no longer valid.

This does not explain why Christ followed the Torah and did not say anything to indicate that it would not be followed.The Whole Law Jesus summed up here:-



Matthew 22:36-40




"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 He said to him: "‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."













The fundmental principals of the 10 commandments will all ways apply as the fris 3 are about loving Jehovah God and the rest a about love of nighbour as Jesus showed in the above.






John 15:12




This is my commandment, that YOU love one another just as I have loved YOU.




The above is "the law of the Christ" which is the Law Jehovah taught him so he could go and teach it to humans on earth.







Galatians 6:2




Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ.






Jesus followed the Law as he, like the rest of the Jews where born into an nation the was coveneted to God, thus he followed the law as a he love his God, His people, and his life on earth fulfilled many aspects of the Law showing that he was the promised Messiah.

Barryrob

[heaven]

The laws of sacrifice were given to the levitical priesthood as a covering of sin.

[shunyadragon]

The Whole Law Jesus summed up here:-Matthew 22:36-40
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 He said to him: "‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."

This is true in the Torah also, it defines the greatest laws in a similar way, but does not justify the failure to follow the Torah.

The fundmental principals of the 10 commandments will all ways apply as the fris 3 are about loving Jehovah God and the rest a about love of neighbour as Jesus showed in the above.

Then your interpretation is inconsistent with Matthew, the life of Christ and the Torah. As far a s Christ's teachings ago, as cited above, the law of the Torah is still valid, but changed as it the laws of divorse.

This is my commandment, that YOU love one another just as I have loved YOU.

The above is "the law of the Christ" which is the Law Jehovah taught him so he could go and teach it to humans on earth.

These quotes are still consistent and repeatable as the Law of the Torah and in no way invalidate the following of the Torah and the law as Jews and Christ also followed.

Galatians 6:2 - Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ.

The law of Christ was the fulfillment of the Law of the Torah, and he followed the Law as an example. He NEVER said that the law should not be followed.

Jesus followed the Law as he, like the rest of the Jews where born into an nation the was coveneted to God, thus he followed the law as a he love his God, His people, and his life on earth fulfilled many aspects of the Law showing that he was the promised Messiah. True and this is in contradition of your justification for not following the Law of the Torah.

[kofh2u]

The Torah of HaShem is perfect. If someone contradicts Torah, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. The Torah is what one uses to judge whether one is of HaShem. Period. Case closed.


Do you mean the metaphysical Torah, that which preceeded and supercedes the written Torah, which shuny claims is contradictory to changes made by Jesus?

[Maxell]

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/finaltorah.html

Looks like me, that Torah is eternal but how it serve people could change with seasons and times.

[heaven]

John 1 Brit Hadasha

In the beginning was the Word
And the Word was with God
And the Word was God
And the Word became flesh
And dwelt among us

In the beginning was the Torah
And the Torah was with God
And the Torah was God
And the Torah became flesh
And dwelt among us

John was a jew and no doubt understood who Yeshua was from the Torah,
Yeshua was a devout jew

The gospels indicate how the religious leaders and elders went to Him for clarity
in understanding the law of Moses and the prophets.

In the teaching of Yeshua on marriage He said " Moses gave you the writ of divorce
because of the hardness of your hearts, but I say to you, what God has brought to
gether, let no man put asunder",paraphrased) indicating the letter of the law is the minimal and
that God requires even more.

In Yeshua's encounter with Nicodemus, He tells Nicodemus "You must be born again
of water and the spirit" indicating that the spirit of God is greater than
the letter of the law, because Nicodemus asks "How can a man go back into his
mother's womb and be born again?"

Thus the law of Moses is never broken, it is merely the least that a man can do, Yeshua requires more.

[Timothy Leary]

Lesson one: The New Testament was written in Greek.

[heaven]

Karaite,

It was written in Koine Greek.

The jews of that era were departing from the faith, living the Greek lifestyle,prefering
sports to the synagogue and temple, speaking greek and forsaking the covenant and
scriptures.

Does this sound familiar to christianity and judaism today. Sports are in and church is
out, MTV is in and Jesus is out, immorality abounds and the scriptures are looked upon
as fables, the tem commandments are removed and a girl in Texas is threatened with
jail if she mentions the name of Jesus. They don't speak greek, they watch pornography.

[shunyadragon]

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/finaltorah.html

Looks like me, that Torah is eternal but how it serve people could change with seasons and times.The Law apparently does and has changed. I would like Twebers to comment on the change over time of the Laws concerning marriage. Poligamy was allowed and regulated in the OT, but Jews today are monogamous, and apparently the law has changed.

In the NT I have heard some Christians saw Christ forbid poligamy, but from what I have read the only instruction I can find is that the rabbi, ministers, leaders or decons? should have only one life.

So what is the core that does not change and the laws that do change?

[Menachem]

Karaite,

It was written in Koine Greek.

The jews of that era were departing from the faith, living the Greek lifestyle,prefering
sports to the synagogue and temple, speaking greek and forsaking the covenant and
scriptures.

Does this sound familiar to christianity and judaism today. Sports are in and church is
out, MTV is in and Jesus is out, immorality abounds and the scriptures are looked upon
as fables, the tem commandments are removed and a girl in Texas is threatened with
jail if she mentions the name of Jesus. They don't speak greek, they watch pornography.


HUH! And your point is?

[Menachem]

John 1 Brit Hadasha

In the beginning was the Word
And the Word was with God
And the Word was God
And the Word became flesh
And dwelt among us

In the beginning was the Torah
And the Torah was with God
And the Torah was God
And the Torah became flesh
And dwelt among us


Interesting, Now I know messianics like to twist, bend and otherwise mangle what christianity and the GNT says to try and doop Jews into believeing it...

John was a jew and no doubt understood who Yeshua was from the Torah,
Yeshua was a devout jew

The gospels indicate how the religious leaders and elders went to Him for clarity
in understanding the law of Moses and the prophets.

John's as well as Luke's Jewishness is in Question, their writings seem to reflect more of a Greek mind than a Jewish mind....

Whether jesus was a devout Jew or not, who cares, so were the rest of the Rabbi's and Sages of the time...Your point being???


In the teaching of Yeshua on marriage He said " Moses gave you the writ of divorce
because of the hardness of your hearts, but I say to you, what God has brought to
gether, let no man put asunder",paraphrased) indicating the letter of the law is the minimal and
that God requires even more.

This is in fact nothing new. the Rabbi's of the time taught this long before and during jesus' days. To quote my Rabbi " You can do everything good by the Torah and still be a Horrible person in life. In order to do Torah you must really believe in what you are doing and do it right." This comes from earlier teaching of the Prophets and early Rabbi's so his teaching is nothing new..


In Yeshua's encounter with Nicodemus, He tells Nicodemus "You must be born again
of water and the spirit" indicating that the spirit of God is greater than
the letter of the law, because Nicodemus asks "How can a man go back into his
mother's womb and be born again?"


My argument for the Jewish Position is: By doing Torah we come closer to G-d and knowing who and what He is. We acknowledge that G-d is greater than man and by doing Torah we know how great and how loving G-d really is...



Thus the law of Moses is never broken, it is merely the least that a man can do, Yeshua requires more.

True, the Torah of Moshe is never borken, My correction to your statement is: " It is the very best we can do in G-d's eyes, and G-d has always asked that we do our best at it."

[kofh2u]

eliyosef:

John's as well as Luke's Jewishness is in Question, ...

KOFHY:
Unfair!
Their mother was a Jew.
You really mean, if they ARE wrong in this matter of whether a suffering messiah-like Jesus was the right guy, or whether they were "dooped," as you put it, correct?

eliyosef:
...their writings seem to reflect more of a Greek mind than a Jewish mind....

KOFHY:
Isn't the purpose of reflecting on them and their writings, just that, to determine what Jewish minds ought to think?
Should Jewish minds think the way THESE Jews thought, or the way those other Jews of their day thought?
To argue who was the real Jew, thst is the ends to which you hope to express yourself... that one side was right or wrong... hence, the true Jew. You already assert that conclusion, it is circular, isn't it?

eliyosef:
Whether jesus was a devout Jew or not, who cares, so were the rest of the Rabbi's and Sages of the time...Your point being???

KOFHY:
The point was, to say Jesus, John, Luke, et al thought as the Greeks is merely denigrating them. You disparage them not what it was these Jews did say. You "excommunicate" them based on what they say, then you say their words come from non-Jews, excommunicated Jews.
And, yes, it is true.
The situation was that these people, all, were Jews.
Jesus and John voiced as sincerity and conviction hard to match from Jews in powerful seats of organized religion.
The people you assume to be "real" Jews were men who had every practical, material, and egocentic reason to hold to their side of doctrine, right or wrong.
The sacrifice of everything they had, life itself, the pomise of scourging and ridicule and excommunication on the one side weighs heavily as an important point of comparision among these two groups ofJews at that time. True?

eliyosef:
This is in fact nothing new. the Rabbi's of the time taught this long before and during jesus' days. To quote my Rabbi " You can do everything good by the Torah and still be a Horrible person in life. In order to do Torah you must really believe in what you are doing and do it right." This comes from earlier teaching of the Prophets and early Rabbi's so his teaching is nothing new.

KOFHY:
And, in this, you sum the whole idea of Christ,... circumcism of the heart and mind,... intent.

The rabbi is an unacknowledged Christian, IMO.
This is the meaning of Christ, fulfilling the Torah.
His message was that we all have the power to do this, to become sons of G-d (The Word/Torah).

eliyosef:
My argument for the Jewish Position is: By doing Torah we come closer to G-d and knowing who and what He is.

KOFHY:
Whooooooo....Your argument ought be:
"In order to do Torah you must really believe in what you are doing and do it right."

Remember, the rabbi ALSO said:
"You can do everything good by the Torah and still be a Horrible person in life."

eliyosef:
We acknowledge that G-d is greater than man and by doing Torah we know how great and how loving G-d really is...

KOFHY:
But...
"In order to do Torah you must really believe in what you are doing and do it right."

Gal. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature (Homoioiusian).

eliyosef:
True, the Torah of Moshe is never borken, My correction to your statement is: " It is the very best we can do in G-d's eyes, and G-d has always asked that we do our best at it."

KOFHY:
And, assuming that...
... the way to one's very best"...
...is the way modelled for us by Christ, then isn't he The Way?

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

KOFHY:
Jewish horse sense would rationally bet on a prophecy like the one below coming true, IF Jesus had already set the present stage of world religion just as it is today.

First, the Christian followers of Jesus got rid of the pagan gentile religions.
Now these Western Europeans and Americans, and 2 billion Christians throughout the world, are all READING the Old and New Testaments transcribed by Jews.

Zech. 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day
shall there be one LORD, and his name one

How else?
How else but by Christ?

[Menachem]

eliyosef:

John's as well as Luke's Jewishness is in Question, ...

KOFHY:
Unfair!
Their mother was a Jew.
You really mean, if they ARE wrong in this matter of whether a suffering messiah-like Jesus was the right guy, or whether they were "dooped," as you put it, correct?

assuming they were truthful in the first place about their life..

I dont have to guess about this one...They did get dooped...big time....But hey greeks would believe almost anything back then...

eliyosef:
...their writings seem to reflect more of a Greek mind than a Jewish mind....

KOFHY:
Isn't the purpose of reflecting on them and their writings, just that, to determine what Jewish minds ought to think?
Should Jewish minds think the way THESE Jews thought, or the way those other Jews of their day thought?
To argue who was the real Jew, thst is the ends to which you hope to express yourself... that one side was right or wrong... hence, the true Jew. You already assert that conclusion, it is circular, isn't it?

One thing I can argue is that their line of thought wasn't Jewish even in their day.. The entire book of both of them scream Hellenistic thought...

eliyosef:
Whether jesus was a devout Jew or not, who cares, so were the rest of the Rabbi's and Sages of the time...Your point being???

KOFHY:
The point was, to say Jesus, John, Luke, et al thought as the Greeks is merely denigrating them. You disparage them not what it was these Jews did say. You "excommunicate" them based on what they say, then you say their words come from non-Jews, excommunicated Jews.
And, yes, it is true.
The situation was that these people, all, were Jews.
Jesus and John voiced as sincerity and conviction hard to match from Jews in powerful seats of organized religion.
The people you assume to be "real" Jews were men who had every practical, material, and egocentic reason to hold to their side of doctrine, right or wrong.
The sacrifice of everything they had, life itself, the pomise of scourging and ridicule and excommunication on the one side weighs heavily as an important point of comparision among these two groups ofJews at that time. True?

At what point in your whole writing of this did you make sense again???

Did I say anything about jesus being a non-Jew...Nope. Did I say that about Luke and John most certainly...Get your point straight...

How does one excommunicate those who arent Jewish(i.e. Luke and John)???

LoL... the only thing that those two voiced were their own temper tantrums when the Prushim made them mad. Thats all they voiced... AS for their teachings they can be found carbon copied from the Rabbi's of the time and before hand..

as for your grim look upon the prushim "The people you assume to be "real" Jews were men who had every practical, material, and egocentic reason to hold to their side of doctrine, right or wrong.

I have whole lines of Rabbinical documents that say thats false. Just because your GNT like to make ludicrous claims like that doent make it so..

eliyosef:
This is in fact nothing new. the Rabbi's of the time taught this long before and during jesus' days. To quote my Rabbi " You can do everything good by the Torah and still be a Horrible person in life. In order to do Torah you must really believe in what you are doing and do it right." This comes from earlier teaching of the Prophets and early Rabbi's so his teaching is nothing new.

KOFHY:
And, in this, you sum the whole idea of Christ,... circumcism of the heart and mind,... intent.

The rabbi is an unacknowledged Christian, IMO.
This is the meaning of Christ, fulfilling the Torah.
His message was that we all have the power to do this, to become sons of G-d (The Word/Torah).


Which jesus took from Rabbi's Hillel and Shammai and many others before his time. So you are saying jesus is a plaigerist???

No the Rabbi is not an unacknowledged christian, isnt that an insult.

I would like to see how jesus fulfilled the Laws of Niddah and a few others since you say he fulfilled the Torah...

We are all sons and daughters of G-d....This too came long before jesus...

eliyosef:
My argument for the Jewish Position is: By doing Torah we come closer to G-d and knowing who and what He is.

KOFHY:
Whooooooo....Your argument ought be:
"In order to do Torah you must really believe in what you are doing and do it right."

Remember, the rabbi ALSO said:
"You can do everything good by the Torah and still be a Horrible person in life."


Who said we werent doing it and believeing what we are doing... I know I do and the Talmud who's teachings come long before Jesus put things that way too.

eliyosef:
We acknowledge that G-d is greater than man and by doing Torah we know how great and how loving G-d really is...

KOFHY:
But...
"In order to do Torah you must really believe in what you are doing and do it right."

Gal. 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature (Homoioiusian).

Ok and your point being??? my point still stands....see above...

Your quotation of the GNT is still not breaking my point, if that could ever happen, since it is not accepted..


eliyosef:
True, the Torah of Moshe is never borken, My correction to your statement is: " It is the very best we can do in G-d's eyes, and G-d has always asked that we do our best at it."

KOFHY:
And, assuming that...
... the way to one's very best"...
...is the way modelled for us by Christ, then isn't he The Way?


Nope....Moses is the way he brought us Torah and so he is the way....Nope...Joshua is the way he carried the Torah after Moses.....Nope.....Isaiah is the way, he showed us the way.....Nope....Ezra is the way....Nope...Jeremiah, and so on...

Gee it looks like I could substitute just as you have for any figure even George W. Bush... Your argument doesn't stand...


Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Then why do christians not do the laws in the Torah??? This is contradictroy to what Paul and christianity says...

KOFHY:
Jewish horse sense would rationally bet on a prophecy like the one below coming true, IF Jesus had already set the present stage of world religion just as it is today.

First, the Christian followers of Jesus got rid of the pagan gentile religions.
Now these Western Europeans and Americans, and 2 billion Christians throughout the world, are all READING the Old and New Testaments transcribed by Jews.

Zech. 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day
shall there be one LORD, and his name one

How else?
How else but by Christ?

Too bad Zechariah 14:9 hasnt been done.. You forget African religions, Shintoism, buddhism, Hinduism, other Native religions and so on..Nice try on saying he fulfilled that when he in fact fulfilled Jack...

Tyhe problem here is that the word LORD here is the Tetragrammaton( י-ה-ו-ה not the word 'jesus' so your point here doesnt stand either...NEXT!

[kofh2u]

1) assuming they were truthful in the first place about their life...

KOFHY:
Again, I say unfair, mean-spirited, and foolish in that the Jews specifically pinished these men because they were accused of being blasphemous Jews... if they eere Gentiles, they would have been ignored
"The people you assume to be "real" Jews were men who had every practical, material, and egocentic reason to hold to their side of doctrine, right or wrong."

2) eliyosef
Who said we werent doing it and believeing what we are doing... I know I do and the Talmud who's teachings come long before Jesus put things that way too.

KOFHY:
Do you deny that the book of Kings accuses the Jews of continuous whoring after Baal and Ashtoreh? That only for very short periods, like under Joshua, did (were ordered) Jews practice what their Judiasm preached or at least, drive their behaviors underground?


MOSES/JERMY/etc ACCUSE YOU... not Jesus...

Jer. 5:19 And it shall come to pass, when ye shall say, Wherefore
doeth the LORD our God all these things unto us? then shalt thou answer them, Like as ye have forsaken me, and served strange gods in your land, so shall ye serve (in diaspora) strangers in a land that is not yours.


3) eliyosef:
Too bad Zechariah 14:9 hasnt been done..

KOFHY:
YET!

4) eliyosef:
You forget African religions, Shintoism, buddhism, Hinduism, other Native religions and so on..Nice try on saying he fulfilled that when he in fact fulfilled Jack...

KOFHY:
No, my point was that fulfillment is imminent... and, yes, Jesus is not done yet.
This is another issue, how these other people will come to Christ.
But, my point was that Christ has already proven well on the way with 1/3 of the world Christian, and an entire world aware of the Hebrew Scriptures which contain a hidden manna, a Kaballah not yet revealed to even the Jews. (More on this later.)

5) eliyosef:
The problem here is that the word LORD here is the Tetragrammaton( ?-?-?-? not the word 'jesus' so your point here doesnt stand either...NEXT!

KOFHY:
Yes, the Tetragrammayion is the basis of the Qabbalah. We shall have to wait to see how wrong you are in ridicule of the wrong name.


My major point was that those who claim to follow the scriptures faithfully are the Isreali people and the Christians, both. One is right. Both argue this point in there own favor and accuse the other, "which say they are Jews and are not."

You insist you are really the Jew, not arguing the biology, but time will tell if Jewishness is subjrct to genetics or religion.

Rev. 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan (in
Universal Roman Catholicism) which say they are Jews (as if circumcised
in their hearts), and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them (in
the millions) to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee (Protestantism).

[shunyadragon]

Too bad Zechariah 14:9 hasnt been done.. You forget African religions, Shintoism, buddhism, Hinduism, other Native religions and so on..Nice try on saying he fulfilled that when he in fact fulfilled Jack...

Tyhe problem here is that the word LORD here is the Tetragrammaton( י-ה-ו-ה not the word 'jesus' so your point here doesnt stand either...NEXT!We are getting wel off topic over into prophecy here, by the way the Baha'i Faith claims the fulfillment of the last days as prophecied in Zechariah and the One name for all religions. The Baha'i Faith has established communities in all these religions and every country and culture of the world.

The topic I would like to pursue now is best proposed in post #28. I would like to see some posts from both you and koth4u in the prophecy thread I started in Comparative Religions. I may post something on Zechariah myself.

[kofh2u]

We are getting wel off topic over into prophecy here, by the way the Baha'i Faith claims the fulfillment of the last days as prophecied in Zechariah and the One name for all religions. The Baha'i Faith has established communities in all these religions and every country and culture of the world.

The topic I would like to pursue now is best proposed in post #28. I would like to see some posts from both you and koth4u in the prophecy thread I started in Comparative Religions. I may post something on Zechariah myself.

Ok, I'll check out your prophecy thread.

But, what do you mean exactly by "communities?"

How would these communities be different than those world-wide distributions of both Jewish and Christian communities?

Zech. 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, (324 AD), saith the
LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols (of mythological and astrological Gods) out of the
land, and they, (the pagans), shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets (of Judaism) and the unclean spirit (of Libidinal cultural excesses) to pass out of the land (of the entire Western Culture).

Zech. 13:3 And it shall come to pass (for 1000 years), that when any shall yet prophesy (during the Dark Age), then his (Catholic) father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

[shunyadragon]

Ok, I'll check out your prophecy thread.

But, what do you mean exactly by "communities?"

How would these communities be different than those world-wide distributions of both Jewish and Christian communities?

Zech. 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, (324 AD), saith the
LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols (of mythological and astrological Gods) out of the
land, and they, (the pagans), shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets (of Judaism) and the unclean spirit (of Libidinal cultural excesses) to pass out of the land (of the entire Western Culture).

Zech. 13:3 And it shall come to pass (for 1000 years), that when any shall yet prophesy (during the Dark Age), then his (Catholic) father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
The discussion of the Baha'i communities will be in the Baha'i Prophecy thread in Comparitive Religions.

[Menachem]

1) assuming they were truthful in the first place about their life...

KOFHY:
Again, I say unfair, mean-spirited, and foolish in that the Jews specifically pinished these men because they were accused of being blasphemous Jews... if they eere Gentiles, they would have been ignored
"The people you assume to be "real" Jews were men who had every practical, material, and egocentic reason to hold to their side of doctrine, right or wrong."

Hrm...why do you think I ignore the entire GNT...that must say something about it based on what you just said.....

Yes their Jewishness is in question 24/7

The same could be said about christians, if not worse...


2)eliyosef
Who said we werent doing it and believeing what we are doing... I know I do and the Talmud who's teachings come long before Jesus put things that way too.

KOFHY:
Do you deny that the book of Kings accuses the Jews of continuous whoring after Baal and Ashtoreh? That only for very short periods, like under Joshua, did (were ordered) Jews practice what their Judiasm preached or at least, drive their behaviors underground?

I dont deny what the Jewish people are accused of in the Book of Kings, plus it was in the Kingdom of Israel not in the southern Judah which was worshipping HaShem.

Under Joshua they practiced their Judaism and they did what was necessary and what G-d told them to do when they entered the promised land....so there is your answer


MOSES/JERMY/etc ACCUSE YOU... not Jesus...

Blame who?

Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Joshua....actually did something....jesus simply retaught the teachings that were floating around during his time and before....nuff said...

Jer. 5:19 And it shall come to pass, when ye shall say, Wherefore
doeth the LORD our God all these things unto us? then shalt thou answer them, Like as ye have forsaken me, and served strange gods in your land, so shall ye serve (in diaspora) strangers in a land that is not yours.

The brilliant words of G-d through the prophet Jeremiah...your point on this being????


3) eliyosef:
Too bad Zechariah 14:9 hasnt been done..

KOFHY:
YET!

Yeah "YET!".. When the actual messiah comes....face it if the persom claiming to be messiah doesnt do the things associated with the messiah when he comes[ i.e. during his lifetime], he is not the messiah...Jesus didn't do anything associated with the messiah...So you know what that means..

4) eliyosef:
You forget African religions, Shintoism, buddhism, Hinduism, other Native religions and so on..Nice try on saying he fulfilled that when he in fact fulfilled Jack...

KOFHY:
No, my point was that fulfillment is imminent... and, yes, Jesus is not done yet.
This is another issue, how these other people will come to Christ.
But, my point was that Christ has already proven well on the way with 1/3 of the world Christian, and an entire world aware of the Hebrew Scriptures which contain a hidden manna, a Kaballah not yet revealed to even the Jews. (More on this later.)


"Fulfillment imminent"....see me above comments if it wasnt done when the supposed person claims to be the messiah[ i.e. during his lifetime], he is not the messiah. There is no such thing as a second coming in the Tanakh.

The only reason 1/3 of the world is christian is because the christian religion is a proselytizing one and by its history a bloody proselytizer as well, Forced conversion, conversion or death. That doesn't actually look good on the record. What about the other 2/3? That isnt a full 3/3. The Muslim religion is actually gaining on you and by 2025 will surpass you all.

A Hidden Manna.. Not revealed.....I think your hallucinogens are kicking in...

5) eliyosef:
The problem here is that the word LORD here is the Tetragrammaton( ?-?-?-? not the word 'jesus' so your point here doesnt stand either...NEXT!

KOFHY:
Yes, the Tetragrammayion is the basis of the Qabbalah. We shall have to wait to see how wrong you are in ridicule of the wrong name.
My major point was that those who claim to follow the scriptures faithfully are the Isreali people and the Christians, both. One is right. Both argue this point in there own favor and accuse the other, "which say they are Jews and are not."


In ridicule of the wrong name...LOL.... who jesus??? Name one place I can find jesus in the Tanakh that doesn't raise any red flags and I will immediately convert to christianity... Good luck... Go ahead pick the traditional one so they can be refuted...please...

Now as you claim to follow the Torah faithfully, when was the last time you Put on tefillin???

You insist you are really the Jew, not arguing the biology, but time will tell if Jewishness is subjrct to genetics or religion.

Rev. 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan (in
Universal Roman Catholicism) which say they are Jews (as if circumcised
in their hearts), and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them (in
the millions) to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee (Protestantism).


Both.....

And yes I am really a Jew. I was born a Jew and I will die a Jew.

Wow a nice bit of GNT for ya.. I though christianity was supposed to be about loving your neighbor as yourself..Hrm seems so warm and bubbly in this one

[kofh2u]

Hrm...why do you think I ignore the entire GNT...that must say something about it based on what you just said.....

Yes their Jewishness is in question 24/7

The same could be said about christians, if not worse...




I dont deny what the Jewish people are accused of in the Book of Kings, plus it was in the Kingdom of Israel not in the southern Judah which was worshipping HaShem.

Under Joshua they practiced their Judaism and they did what was necessary and what G-d told them to do when they entered the promised land....so there is your answer




Blame who?

Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Joshua....actually did something....jesus simply retaught the teachings that were floating around during his time and before....nuff said...



The brilliant words of G-d through the prophet Jeremiah...your point on this being????




Yeah "YET!".. When the actual messiah comes....face it if the persom claiming to be messiah doesnt do the things associated with the messiah when he comes[ i.e. during his lifetime], he is not the messiah...Jesus didn't do anything associated with the messiah...So you know what that means..




"Fulfillment imminent"....see me above comments if it wasnt done when the supposed person claims to be the messiah[ i.e. during his lifetime], he is not the messiah. There is no such thing as a second coming in the Tanakh.

The only reason 1/3 of the world is christian is because the christian religion is a proselytizing one and by its history a bloody proselytizer as well, Forced conversion, conversion or death. That doesn't actually look good on the record. What about the other 2/3? That isnt a full 3/3. The Muslim religion is actually gaining on you and by 2025 will surpass you all.

A Hidden Manna.. Not revealed.....I think your hallucinogens are kicking in...




In ridicule of the wrong name...LOL.... who jesus??? Name one place I can find jesus in the Tanakh that doesn't raise any red flags and I will immediately convert to christianity... Good luck... Go ahead pick the traditional one so they can be refuted...please...

Now as you claim to follow the Torah faithfully, when was the last time you Put on tefillin???




Both.....

And yes I am really a Jew. I was born a Jew and I will die a Jew.

Wow a nice bit of GNT for ya.. I though christianity was supposed to be about loving your neighbor as yourself..Hrm seems so warm and bubbly in this one


1) My apology.
Reading the last line in your post I see you inr I am angry with you, or frustrated and being rude.

None of the above was intended.

2) Yes. I not only wear the tefillin, but my research has lead me to build a case that the revised form of the original cube was in error.

I am certain that the establishment would never entertain the reasons why I say this. However, you will find if you don't know already, that the tefillin was sort of re-invented. Whatever it had been in the days of Moses was long lost. The words of Torah were assumed to lengthy to actually be worn on such a small form, so the few verses that come from the Torah command were all that were used.

The tefillin becomes an essential relic in the persausiin of Chrustians to understand many "secrets of the manna" called Kabbalah.

You ridicule of my hallucination concerning this lost secret is not insulting to me, but informs me of your ignorance (no injury to your pride intented, mind you).

You either are ignorant of our Jewish secret esoteric knowledge which is called Qabbalah, or you are ignorant of what it means and do not honor it.

The Jewish forefathers have lost the Urim and Thummim, the wisdom of the Qabbalah, the true construction of the tellifin, the ark, the temple, the daily sacrifice, the art of the Kohanim, the geometric construction of the breastplate of judgement, the Book of Deuteronomy, and the first place in line.
Why would it be unbelievable that they lost their way, that they missed the messiah ben Joseph?

[Menachem]

1) My apology.
Reading the last line in your post I see you inr I am angry with you, or frustrated and being rude.

None of the above was intended.

It's ok if your angry with me...

2) Yes. I not only wear the tefillin, but my research has lead me to build a case that the revised form of the original cube was in error.

I am certain that the establishment would never entertain the reasons why I say this. However, you will find if you don't know already, that the tefillin was sort of re-invented. Whatever it had been in the days of Moses was long lost. The words of Torah were assumed to lengthy to actually be worn on such a small form, so the few verses that come from the Torah command were all that were used.

The tefillin becomes an essential relic in the persausiin of Chrustians to understand many "secrets of the manna" called Kabbalah.


Your wear tefillin you say....interresting...I never knew Christians wore it unless your one of those messianics.

Actually the whole tefillin thing has never been lost, it can be found in the Oral Torah...


You ridicule of my hallucination concerning this lost secret is not insulting to me, but informs me of your ignorance (no injury to your pride intented, mind you).

You either are ignorant of our Jewish secret esoteric knowledge which is called Qabbalah, or you are ignorant of what it means and do not honor it.

OR I am saying you are hallucinating and am not as ignorant as you think since your arguments are easily refutable..

The Lost secrets my rear end....the next thing you will tell me is that there are codes in the Hebrew text that allude to the coming of the reign of the Chipmunks on earth with Alvin as the King Chipmunk.

The Jewish forefathers have lost the Urim and Thummim, the wisdom of the Qabbalah, the true construction of the tellifin, the ark, the temple, the daily sacrifice, the art of the Kohanim, the geometric construction of the breastplate of judgement, the Book of Deuteronomy, and the first place in line.

Some Jews said that a long time ago about the "discovery" of the Zohar to be the works of Rabbi Shimeon bar Yochai. When in reality it was produced by Moshe de Leon.

The actual construction of Tefillin, the ark, the temple, the daily sacrifices, the art of the Kohanim, the breastplate construction...etc can all be found in the Talmud.

The Book of Deuteronomy, and your first place in line can be found in the Torah.



Why would it be unbelievable that they lost their way, that they missed the messiah ben Joseph?

I know for a fact we didnt lose our way, in fact we kept our way and observe them.

Messiah ben Yosef....Tell me was this messiah ben Yosef from the tribe of Yosef(Ephraim or Menasseh) as the Talmud says.. If you are speaking of "jesus," you just hit a wall. Since he had no mortal biological father to declare a pedigree to, he had no tribal line period...

[Menachem]

Sorry Shuny I will look at the prophecies as soon as possible and post my response.....Shalom Aleichem

[kofh2u]

eliyosef:
Your wear tefillin you say....interresting...I never knew Christians wore it unless your one of those messianics.

KOFHY:
Hebrew Christian.

eliyosef:
Actually the whole tefillin thing has never been lost, it can be found in the Oral Torah...

KOFHY:
Perhaps you might tell me more. Especially why the insertation of only those few verses from Dueter. we rationalized as the only way to wear the words of Torah. Why if the Oral Torah is explicit was this pondered so late?

I am not disputing what yoi said. Where, in the Oral Torah, does the cube-shaped construction get acknowledged?

eliyosef:
OR I am saying you are hallucinating and am not as ignorant as you think since your arguments are easily refutable..

KOFHY:
Yes, you are saying that over and over again. You are not picking on me, in particular. That is your posture with all your responses, stiff-necked self-right and contentedly assured. Probably you imagine people MUST be angry with you. As a Jew, I am not angered by such behavior.

I was raised in that atmosphere of self-indulgent superiority to other people in general. And, in the easy dismissal of a Jew who conquered Western Culturaled world.

eliyosef:
The Lost secrets my rear end....the next thing you will tell me is...

KOFHY:
No way.
I wouldn't qualify to tell you or the observant Jewish community anything. Before anyone would even be entertained he would need be examined by the rabbi to assure they could stamp his words as OK by them.

I was merely pointing out that these "experts" will tell anyone who asks that the "Kabbalah is the SECRET esoteric knowledge of Israel," because no one, not even these experts know the secret.

They do have the keys to the kingdom of the scriptures, but they won't use them, or haven't been able to understand how they have ben used, and they won't let anyone else demonstrate how they were/are used.

eliyosef:
Some Jews said that a long time ago about the "discovery" of the Zohar to be the works of Rabbi Shimeon bar Yochai. When in reality it was produced by Moshe de Leon.

KOFHY:
Is Kabbalah a product of Moshe de Leon? Before him, there was no Kabbalah?

eliyosef:
The actual construction of Tefillin, the ark, the temple, the daily sacrifices, the art of the Kohanim, the breastplate construction...etc can all be found in the Talmud.

KOFHY:
Great!

I have never had a good explanation for a square breastplate arrangement of 4 rows three deep.

Every sketch and picture always shows a rectangular breastplate.

Since the Torah DOES contain the necessary information to support an unusal square arrangement, if one reads the subtle hints, I would love to have the collateration of the Talmud on this.

How does the Tulmud describe tjis square geometry? Were might I read about the square shape of 3x4 jewels?

eliyosef:
The Book of Deuteronomy, and your first place in line can be found in the Torah.

KOFHY:
Yeah, today. But the Jews did lose it for many centuries. They lucked into discovering it when king Joshua insisted they act like Jews, not just pretend to such religious belief.

Remember? The book was lost?

eliyosef:
I know for a fact we didnt lose our way, in fact we kept our way and observe them.

KOFHY:
But, you lost all these other items and these other important elements, the Urim&Thummim, Deuteronomy, the SQUARE Breastplate, and Israel, as a particular message to you to reconsider your self satisfied self-assurance, didn't you?

eliyosef:
Messiah ben Yosef....Tell me was this messiah ben Yosef from the tribe of Yosef(Ephraim or Menasseh) as the Talmud says..

KOFHY:
Do you still look for this "suffering messiah" to appear?

Or, is your question poised for Christians to answer about Jesus, How can he be from David and represent messiah ben Joseph?

eliyosef:
If you are speaking of "jesus," you just hit a wall. Since he had no mortal biological father to declare a pedigree to, he had no tribal line period...

KOFHY:
Now, make a note that I am expressing my own personal conviction concerning this matter.

As a poing of discussion, you might agreevthat, ultimately, God is the father of all children.

The Orthodox Christian belief does recognize an intervention, perhaps a genetic "adjustment" we might technically call,a mutation in the science of bio-genetics.

Many Christian recognize that the lineage of Christ is rather convulted in the New Testament, Matthew one being different than Luke 3.

A possible explanation is that this purposifully reported difference is a support for a link between Jesus and the line of Joseph, a surprise for Christian and Jewish theologians.

Christians even srgue the meaning of the Hebrew word, some debating that Mary was either technically a "virgin" or perhaps just an "unmarried girl."

But, I assume you distain the New Testament and only examine it to oppose Christians by their own Word.

Otherwise, I would ask about John the Baptist. The report we have is that the rabbi even came to him for baptism. And, of course, they are reported as fearing to oppose him be\ause he was so widely accepted by Jews of his day, Jews like you, not rabbi or scrbes of the Sopherim.

All this suggests that Jews of your persausion won in that one single generation of Jews and have ever since indoctrinated future generations such as yourself to voice their "party line."

Nevertheless, Israel today welcomes the evangelical support for their very existence, being "saved" by the work of a single Jew, Jesus.


Isa. 60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud (from the Americas), and as the doves (of peace) to their (cathedral) windows?

Isa. 60:9 Surely the isles (of the New World) shall wait for me, and
the ships of Tarshish first (from Western Europe), to bring thy sons (of Abraham) from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD, (Christ) thy God, (the Word of scripture), and to the Holy One of Israel, (Jesus), because he hath glorified thee (in Christianity).

Isa. 60:10 And the sons of strangers (from the Americas) shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister peace unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee (in Holocaust), but in my favour (restoring my chosen to Israel) have I had mercy on thee.

[Drashi]

Inerestingly enough, the Saducees, who were the assimilationists and did everything the opposite of the Observant Jews wore round tefillin (one or more examples were found in Qumran, indicating that those parts were either Sadducean or some Observant Jews found them and deposted them for burial as we do today).

According to the Torah, one who would pray to an Elohim Acharim (a manifestation of G-d, whether it be physical or metaphysical) would cease being part of the Jewish people. Many Jews of the 2nd temple took on such behaviors and rather than put them to death, the Sanhedrin exiled themselves from the Temple, eliminating capital judgments by the year 30. Worshipping Elohim Acharim has been our downfall in history, and still such people like to call themselves part of the Jewish people when, in reality, they have intentiannally cut themselves off.

[Timothy Leary]

Which Saducees are you thinking of, Drashi? I believe it could be said that the Bouethisians (sp?), who are sometimes called Saducees were that way, as from what I've studied of at least the Saducees who survived beyond the Second Temple period, they were very religous. And odd. (Similarly, during the Karaite-Rabbinic debates, Karaites were sometimes referred to as Saducees, even though they were another sect [which still existed at the time])

[Drashi]

Read the history of Alexander Yannai. While a few decades earlier, it represented a particular mindset that continued (based on a book by Rabbi Beryl Wein). The Qumran statement was based on "Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls" which lables the residents as most likely Sadducean because of their anti-Pharisaic sect (and the round tefillin was an interesting bonus).

[Timothy Leary]

A Karaite friend of mine in Jerusalem is working with Emmanuel Tov on the well-known DSS project. From what they have studied, he said, it appears that at least 3 different groups inhabited the caves, and they are only fairly certain that the Saducees and Pharisees were at one time. (Pharisees, during the Bar Kokhba Revolt)