Meticulous Control?

[seer]

Does Proverbs 16 teach God's meticulous control over even the smallest detail:

1: The plans of the mind belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

9: A man's mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps.


33: The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is wholly from the LORD.

Any thoughts?

[lee_merrill]

Another Seer thread! I could make a Seer suit…

Does Proverbs 16 teach God's meticulous control over even the smallest detail:

1: The plans of the mind belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

9: A man's mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps.

33: The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is wholly from the LORD.

Any thoughts?I would say complete control of all acts and events, but not control of every detail, "The plans of the mind belong to man," thus man's thoughts do not seem to be all caused and controlled by God.

And I believe that God's children can really choose, within God's will, and that with more maturity, comes more responsibility, and more ability to really choose:

Luke 19:19 His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'

Revelation 3:21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Blessings,
Lee

[Alberta girl]

Does Proverbs 16 teach God's meticulous control over even the smallest detail:

1: The plans of the mind belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

9: A man's mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps.


33: The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is wholly from the LORD.

Any thoughts?
Hi Seer:
My bible says, 'The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tounge, is from the Lord.'

R.V. supposedly says, 'The preparations of the heart belong to man; but the answer of the tounge,is from God.'

That would seem to be a contradiction. That's not just making the english more understandable, that's changing the whole meaning of the phrase.

But as I read the second and third verse, what speaks to me is that if I direct all my planning and doing to God...As if to say 'Here God, these are my plans for the day. would you go over them and tell me what you think'...,then He will keep me from the insanity of self-righteousness.

What do you think of the apparent contradiction in the two versions of the same verse?

[geebob]

1: The plans of the mind belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

9: A man's mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps.

This actually plays a significant role in my view of libertarian free will.

We frequently plan something one way and it is our own plan and what we wanted. Did it come from God? Not necessarily. These verses definitely leave that notion out. And yet things don't go as we plan. For those who rebel, their rebellion is the plan of their own heart, and does it lead them to happiness. fulfillment and peace of Mind? Often not, and sometimes God may be using their plans against them or inspite of them.

And their's vice versa. we may have plans even in obedience to God. And I've heard often that some people say that they couldn't have imagined, they never would have planned the way their life had turned out as it was better than what they had in mind.

And of course, it's a proverb. Proverbs aren't absolute.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

What do you think of the apparent contradiction in the two versions of the same verse?What was that first version you quoted? It sure seems incorrect, I agree that it changes the whole meaning, all the translations I have show a contrast, and this translation removes the contrast.

We frequently plan something one way and it is our own plan and what we wanted. Did it come from God? Not necessarily.I agree that these verses seem to indicate that God is not the source of all thoughts, though all actions are under his control. I do think "directs his steps" in Prov. 16:9 may still allow for freedom for believers, that God leads us as needed, but allows real choices, too. His direction sometimes, for a believer, might be: "Make some decisions!"

Luke 19:17 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

Blessings,
Lee

[geebob]

I agree that these verses seem to indicate that God is not the source of all thoughts, though all actions are under his control.

proverbs are not absolutes. They are often generalities with exceptions.

example

15:22 Plans fail for lack of counsel,
but with many advisers they succeed.

[themuzicman]

Yeah, the idea of genre has been forgotten in using these verses. Wisdom literature is not intended to be didactic of absolute doctrine, but general direction and advice for living.

Michael

[Alberta girl]

Hi everyone,

What was that first version you quoted? It sure seems incorrect, I agree that it changes the whole meaning, all the translations I have show a contrast, and this translation removes the contrast.

LeeI quoted my king James Version, Thompson Chain Reference Bible, published by the B.B. Kirkbride Bible Company

[Ormly]

I quoted my king James Version, Thompson Chain Reference Bible, published by the B.B. Kirkbride Bible Company
Best one out there! I hope you have it on CD. --- by "Word Search". 37.00 @ CBD.

Orm

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Geebob: proverbs are not absolutes. They are often generalities with exceptions.

Michael: Wisdom literature is not intended to be didactic of absolute doctrine...
Certainly some proverbs are principles, not promises. But some proverbs are promises, not principles! We can't say "That's a proverb, and therefore not certain."

Prov. 1:3 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge...

Yes it is, always and forever...

Lee: What was that first version you quoted?

Alberta girl: I quoted my king James Version...

Thanks, I would take the newer translations here, and assume the KJV is incorrect here. But in any case, I think we need not worry about a contradiction, if a verse can be translated in two quite different ways, since it won't actually mean both meanings, just one...

Blessings,
Lee

[geebob]

Certainly some proverbs are principles, not promises. But some proverbs are promises, not principles! We can't say "That's a proverb, and therefore not certain."

distinguishing between which is which will often depend upon biases you already bring to the table. Of course you think the proverbs in question are absolute. But they in themselves do not indicate this.

they are not evidently promises either. your example of an absolute isn't necessarily an absolute either! Whether it is absolute or not, interpreting it as a promise is a subjective prefference. But quite frankly, eve if it isn't absolute, it is still a guiding principle for life. The beginning of knowledge is the fear of the Lord. Even if there were exceptions, it is still generally true and hence a rule to live by.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Whether it is absolute or not, interpreting it as a promise is a subjective prefference.
I don't know, I think we can be led by the Lord, to tell which is which. If I am choosing, then for sure I'm going to wind up in the ditch!

And I agree that promises are also principles...

Blessings,
Lee

[geebob]

I don't know, I think we can be led by the Lord, to tell which is which.

the Lord leads the church in the interpretation of scripture. Not lee merril individually. Lee Merril is not the universally recognized and sanctioned interpreter of scripture. You're a very nice man and surely a decent Christian, but that isn't enough for me to take your word when you say "God told me so" for me to take it that way.

Scripture has been given to the church and the church does not have just one decisive view on this scripture and is still in the process of learning the meaning of scripture including this one.

If God has lead you personally in the understanding of this verse, then you have far more to give us than merely "God told me so".

[lee_merrill]

I agree that my views are not authoritative! I sometimes don't agree with myself...

Blessings,
Lee