Were the 12 discples empowered to forgive sin...

[Chappie]

John 20:19;
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Can this passage be received literally, or is something lost or implied in the translation that is not there in the language of the bible?

[Amazing Rando]

I don't really know- Jesus himself certainly forgave sins... did he pass his authority to do so on to his disciples here? :nsm:

[Xavier]

I don't really know- Jesus himself certainly forgave sins... did he pass his authority to do so on to his disciples here? :nsm:
I think so... One could argue here or the Pentecost as the moment in which the Holy Spirit was imparted to the Apostles. I would argue for the earlier date with Pentecost being an affirmation of that indwelling.

An interesting side note would be that since only God can forgive sin, this would be an interesting collorary to the Trinity Doctrine. :teeth:

Yours,
Xavier

[Amazing Rando]

I think so... One could argue here or the Pentecost as the moment in which the Holy Spirit was imparted to the Apostles. I would argue for the earlier date with Pentecost being an affirmation of that indwelling.

:yes:

An interesting side note would be that since only God can forgive sin, this would be an interesting collorary to the Trinity Doctrine. :teeth:

Yours,
Xavier

Huh? I'm confused. It seems to me you're saying that since the disciples had Jesus' authority to forgive sin, then they too were one with the Father?

[Ormly]

I think so... One could argue here or the Pentecost as the moment in which the Holy Spirit was imparted to the Apostles. I would argue for the earlier date with Pentecost being an affirmation of that indwelling.

An interesting side note would be that since only God can forgive sin, this would be an interesting collorary to the Trinity Doctrine. :teeth:

Yours,
XavierBut it can't be argued objectively since these are two different manifestations of the Holy Spirit. And He did give power to forgive sins since it is Himself that now resides within them, in Jn.20.22. However, what does that say about the responsibilty layed upon the disciples and if you call yourself a disciple what does that say in regards to what you take upon yourself. Isn't that just something else, if understood correctly, that needs to be considered when "counting the cost" before becoming born again? Further, what does it say about discipleship in general that is grossly missing in todays church of cheap grace and Disneyland mentality?

Something to ponder when considering the above: We all know Jesus was born of the Father, full of the Holy Ghost. What happened at the river after JTB baptised Him in water? What did Jesus, the man, receive BEFORE beginning His earthy ministry and why do you suppose that even He HAD to have it?

:ahem:rm

[Chappie]

John 20:19;
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Can this passage be received literally, or is something lost or implied in the translation that is not there in the language of the bible?

Mark 11
25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
27 And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders,

Can the passage where Christ gives his disciples authority to forgive sin possibly be tied to this one. If we forgive a brother a trespass here on earth, God will forgive that trespass in heaven.

I have not formed an opinion yet, just asking in an effort to clear up some loose ends...

[Gabby]

How about

James 5:13-17
"Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praises. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much."

chris

ps, I'm not around this weekend so can't reply til Tues.

Happy Canadian Thanksgiving everyone!! :teeth:

[Xavier]

Huh? I'm confused. It seems to me you're saying that since the disciples had Jesus' authority to forgive sin, then they too were one with the Father?

Not the disciples, but rather the Holy Spirit through the disciples. I suppose it would depend on how you viewed the indwelling of the Spirit... :smile:

I'm just throwing this around at the moment. It isn't exactly a strong point of my systematic... :wink:

Yours,
Xavier

[A Beautiful Truth]

John 20:19;
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Can this passage be received literally, or is something lost or implied in the translation that is not there in the language of the bible?

Do you think it has any connection with I Cor. 6:2, 3?

Or do you not know that the sainst will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, matters of this life?

Also, as the account in John is like the great commisison accounts in the other gospels, perhaps this is another way of saying that we need to preach the forgiveness of sins and tell people their sins are indeed remitted as they accept the Lord's Christ and His forgiveness. If people do not accept the forgiveness, we can say that they are not forgiven.

[Ormly]

John 20:19;


19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.



Can this passage be received literally, or is something lost or implied in the translation that is not there in the language of the bible?

Why not literal, Chappie? If one considers themself to be a disciple isn't this the text their assumption [presumption] should be put up against? Or is it because we have gone down the road to not really knowing and assuming anyone "saved' to be a disciple to which we have/must of necessity conclude, "no way". Converted? Perhaps. But a disciple or even born again? I don't think so. First show the works by the faith that is OF Christ that we might have confidence.

Orm

[Alberta girl]

John 20:19;
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Can this passage be received literally, or is something lost or implied in the translation that is not there in the language of the bible?
Hi Chappie: Could this be spoken in more of a evangelical theme? Jesus said, 'Even as My Father hath sent me...' So the Father sent Christ to bring the good news of restoring the broken relationship between God and man, and now Jesus is sending them to carry on the mission. Who ever believed the Gospel, their sins would be remitted, those who remained in unbelief, their sins would be retained. Thank you for letting me share.

[Ormly]

Hi Chappie: Could this be spoken in more of a evangelical theme? Jesus said, 'Even as My Father hath sent me...' So the Father sent Christ to bring the good news of restoring the broken relationship between God and man, and now Jesus is sending them to carry on the mission. Who ever believed the Gospel, their sins would be remitted, those who remained in unbelief, their sins would be retained. Thank you for letting me share.Jesus said it would be the disciples who retained or forgave. What you suggest isn't that at all. It seems to be more specific a thing in what Jesus was enabling them to do. -- and why not if they are one with Him and the Father? Won't they have the mind of God in all matters? And what does this say about us if we claim to be His disciples --- are we one with Him?

Orm <sorry Chappie>

[Alberta girl]

Jesus said it would be the disciples who retained or forgave. What you suggest isn't that at all. It seems to be more specific a thing in what Jesus was enabling them to do. -- and why not if they are one with Him and the Father? Won't they have the mind of God in all matters? And what does this say about us if we claim to be His disciples --- are we one with Him?

Orm <sorry Chappie>Hi Ormly: Yes it's true what I suggested isn't that at all. But where I'm comming from is my old Catholic upbringing where the father supposedly had the power to forgive me in the confessional. I rebel against the idea that some person can be in a position between the Lord and me. So I don't want to believe what that scripture says literaly because it might mean that I was wrong about the priest thing. Maybe I won't really be forgiven till I go back to confession. That is why I made that suggestion.

Do I have the power to forgive what someone did to someone else. For example: Some years ago there was a horrible murder in a town and it was on the news that the townspeole were forgiving that murderer. But my question is, did the townspeople have the right to forgive the murderer? Wasn't it the place of the victim, or at most the victims family. Do I have any business forgiving the boys that did the Columbine thing, even though I'm not related to any of the victims, and don't even live there?

On the other hand, I've been taught that when I forgive others I release something in heaven and that it is a terrible thing to refuse to forgive others because it stops some kind of progression in the spirit world which I don't really understand.

[Ormly]

Hi Ormly: Yes it's true what I suggested isn't that at all. But where I'm comming from is my old Catholic upbringing where the father supposedly had the power to forgive me in the confessional. I rebel against the idea that some person can be in a position between the Lord and me. So I don't want to believe what that scripture says literaly because it might mean that I was wrong about the priest thing. Maybe I won't really be forgiven till I go back to confession. That is why I made that suggestion.I believe that if the priest was a Priest of God I would have little difficulty. There is that conflict within me that agrees with your conflict that speaks of the shortcoming we both know is there. Having said that, however, I do believe in accountability as a means of being held accountable by someone with flesh on him. We have the law of man in the secular realm and we need the law God exhibited in men and women we can trust in the Sprirtual. That's why trusting and relationships are so impotant.

Do I have the power to forgive what someone did to someone else. For example: Some years ago there was a horrible murder in a town and it was on the news that the townspeole were forgiving that murderer. But my question is, did the townspeople have the right to forgive the murderer? Wasn't it the place of the victim, or at most the victims family. Do I have any business forgiving the boys that did the Columbine thing, even though I'm not related to any of the victims, and don't even live there?No. -- nough said on that.

On the other hand, I've been taught that when I forgive others I release something in heaven and that it is a terrible thing to refuse to forgive others because it stops some kind of progression in the spirit world which I don't really understand.This applies only on the personal level and that having to do with what is released from God through you to that person and to yourself as well. That can be a very difficult thing to do but it is the Grace of God within you being released as perhaps the only grace the offending individual will ever get. One might just consider it --- a priviledge.

:smile:rm

[Alberta girl]

I believe that if the priest was a Priest of God I would have little difficulty. There is that conflict within me that agrees with your conflict that speaks of the shortcoming we both know is there. Having said that, however, I do believe in accountability as a means of being held accountable by someone with flesh on him. We have the law of man in the secular realm and we need the law God exhibited in men and women we can trust in the Sprirtual. That's why trusting and relationships are so impotant.

:smile:rm
O.K. Ormly: Since you put it that way, I do agree from this perspective: Step 5 in my 12 step group says, 'admitted to God, to ourselves, and to one other person the exact nature of our wrongs'. So I agree on the accountability issue. It's like saying that if the sin is not admitted to it's not really repented of. But i'm still having a problem with 'carte blanche' forgiveness from a third party.

If I tell my sponser of something I did that hurt another person, my sponser will suggest that I go to that person and make amends to them. But does my sponser forgive me or does she tell me that my forgiveness is a gift from God. If the person I hurt is dead, they certainly can't forgive me. I still can't get to the part where I could forgive you of something you did to someone else. I know God can, and I can tell you that He can, but can I actually forgive you? I could forgive you of something you did to hurt me...but does it really carry over to a third party?

If your out there Chappie, you better weigh in.
Thanks for letting me share.

[Ormly]

O.K. Ormly: Since you put it that way, I do agree from this perspective: Step 5 in my 12 step group says, 'admitted to God, to ourselves, and to one other person the exact nature of our wrongs'. So I agree on the accountability issue. It's like saying that if the sin is not admitted to it's not really repented of. But i'm still having a problem with 'carte blanche' forgiveness from a third party.

If I tell my sponser of something I did that hurt another person, my sponser will suggest that I go to that person and make amends to them. But does my sponser forgive me or does she tell me that my forgiveness is a gift from God. If the person I hurt is dead, they certainly can't forgive me. I still can't get to the part where I could forgive you of something you did to someone else. I know God can, and I can tell you that He can, but can I actually forgive you? I could forgive you of something you did to hurt me...but does it really carry over to a third party?At this juncture and realizing that dealing in the hypothetical isn't a very good way to come to a full understanding of any issue, I have to say, it's none of your business. You have no part in this as to forgiving anyone in such a senario. That should come as a relief to you, I hope. :smile:

But then, if you are a grandmother and the offense is to one of your grandchildren then I would say you might need a "gift from God" -- I would, depending on the offense.:ahem:

But again, that's the difficulty in dealing with the hypothetical.