Mercy For The Enemies Of God?

[seer]

Romans 11, concerning the Christ rejecting Jews:

28: As regards the gospel THEY are ENEMIES of God, for your sake; but as regards election THEY are BELOVED for the sake of their forefathers.
29: For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
30: Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of , THEIR DISOBEDIENCE
31: so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you THEY also may receive MERCY.

[lee_merrill]

Yes, indeed! Much agreed...

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

Yes, indeed! Much agreed...

Blessings,
Lee


Where are all the Calvinists?

[lee_merrill]

Where are all the Calvinists?Eeek! I think I'm a four-point Calvinist. This is the point I disagree with though, that God doesn't love and purpose to save everyone. Here are some similar verses to the one you posted:

Jeremiah 12:7-8 I will forsake my house, abandon my inheritance; I will give the one I love into the hands of her enemies. My inheritance has become to me like a lion in the forest. She roars at me; therefore I hate her.

Love for those God is hating at the same time! This must mean love in one sense (like the Greeks considered that there were four different kinds of love, with different names for them), and hate in another sense.

Jeremiah 11:14-15 Do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them, because I will not listen when they call to me in the time of their distress. "What is my beloved doing in my temple as she works out her evil schemes with many?"

Similarly here, "Do not pray for them, I will not listen … my beloved …"

Blessings,
Lee

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

Romans 11, concerning the Christ rejecting Jews:

28: As regards the gospel THEY are ENEMIES of God, for your sake; but as regards election THEY are BELOVED for the sake of their forefathers.
29: For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
30: Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of , THEIR DISOBEDIENCE
31: so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you THEY also may receive MERCY.

I've always found it extremely interesting that the gospel is here distinguished from election with respect to a group of people. And this is one of those passages whose resolution seems to belie much of the common run of systematic theology....

[smaller]

Seer, your question on this particular chain poses problems for free willers as well as Calvies, but of course there are quite a number of professional dodge ball players in the fields of "christian" theology.

[seer]

Seer, your question on this particular chain poses problems for free willers as well as Calvies, but of course there are quite a number of professional dodge ball players in the fields of "christian" theology.

Not really Eel. In the context, whether these Jews, now in rebellion, actually receive this mercy is conditional.

Go back to vs.22,23

"Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others, IF they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

[smaller]

Not really Eel. In the context, whether these Jews, now in rebellion, actually receive this mercy is conditional.

Go back to vs.22,23

"Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others, IF they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

We have grappled with the continual in out cycle of God's "conditional" love before J, and found the reality of that position to be nothing less than us loving ourselves..;)

There is a branch of Israel that is cut off, fallen, perpetually in unbelief, and not "all" of Israel. That branch is not able to be seen by the flesh. It is the "disobedience" that "all" men are "bound to."

Does not make "us" the same as "them."

All of Israel is stated multiple times in the text to be God's Children.

God does not kill (eternally) His Own Children, but continually refines and nourishes.

The difficult part to see is The Fathers Divine Judgment in this life of the things that "we" are all bound with that also serves a longer term beneficial purpose.

[Calvinist4Him]

Romans 11, concerning the Christ rejecting Jews:

28: As regards the gospel THEY are ENEMIES of God, for your sake; but as regards election THEY are BELOVED for the sake of their forefathers.
29: For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
30: Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of , THEIR DISOBEDIENCE
31: so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you THEY also may receive MERCY.

So your going to base your entire theology on one passage? Oh, your just trying to make a point. Might I suggest that the context of the entire chapter, the entire writing would help to shed light on just exactly what Paul is talking about? Finally, what are you suggesting by mercy, and what is Paul suggesting by mercy? Context seems to be underated these days. :sigh:

[seer]

So your going to base your entire theology on one passage? Oh, your just trying to make a point. Might I suggest that the context of the entire chapter, the entire writing would help to shed light on just exactly what Paul is talking about? Finally, what are you suggesting by mercy, and what is Paul suggesting by mercy? Context seems to be underated these days.

No I have many more texts - would you like to see them. Also, there is nothing in the context that takes away the weight of this passage. That God seeks to have mercy even on these gospel rejecting jews. And I would assume that it is the same "kind" of mercy that is offered to us believers in context. In other words - I do not believe that Paul is speaking of two kinds of mercy.