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STR Ambassador
October 11th 2004, 10:37 AM
Since the Gospel alone transforms lives, some Christians wrongly conclude that political involvement is a waste of time. This myth of political passivity presumes that the Great Commission is our only responsibility. It’s not.

No Hint of Politics by Greg Koukl

It’s not only the left that expresses alarm when Christians jeopardize the “separation” between church and state when they stir from their slumber and begin to make a difference in the public square. Some Believers object, too. One Evangelical leader offered this stern warning: “There should not be even a hint of anything political in our public discourse.”

“Political action distracts the Church from its main calling,” the argument goes, “keeping us from communicating the good news of the Gospel. It does no good to pass laws enforcing our own parochial morality. Civic virtue won’t save anyone. We succeed only in sanitizing sin. Transformed society is the result of transformed people, those changed from the inside out, not from the outside in.”

This notion of political passivity has force because it properly emphasizes two things that are true. One, the Gospel has supernatural power to change lives. Two, no one can be pleasing to God through mere civic virtue. Christians wrongly conclude, however, that political involvement is, therefore, a waste of time.

There are serious problems with this way of thinking. Forgiveness through Jesus Christ is an imperative part of our message—indeed, the very cornerstone—but the Great Commission is not our only responsibility. Jesus said, “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s.” The Gospel is not communicated in a political and cultural vacuum. Paul told us to pray for those in authority that we might lead a tranquil, quiet life in godliness and dignity (1 Timothy 2:1-2). In a democratic society those prayers can and should be augmented by action.

The doctrine of political passivity is flawed in its understanding of the function of law, the changing definition of “politics,” the role of the Church in the moral education of a nation, and the original intent of the First Amendment.

The First Goal of Law: Changed Behavior

This view misunderstands the principle role of law. Laws are not primarily meant to change hearts, but behavior, and they accomplish that very well.

Peter tells us that government is for “the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right” (1 Peter 2:14). Paul teaches that government “is a minister of God to you for good...[and] an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil” (13:3-4). The book of Proverbs reminds us that, “The king gives stability to the land by justice” (29:4) and, “The execution of justice is joy for the righteous” (21:15 ).

The unmistakable conclusion of these verses is this: God intends government to use law to enforce morality. God’s people are an essential part of that process because the concepts of good and evil that Paul talks about can be twisted by evil men in power. If the Church doesn’t stand in the gap giving substance to the words “good” and “evil,” then nothing prevents leadership from reversing the definitions, praising evil and punishing good. Tragically, this is already happening.

Pinning Down “Politics”


Second, the term “politics” is vague. What specifically does it mean to say that Christians should avoid “politics”? Initially it meant that churches shouldn’t campaign for a particular candidate. “Keep religion in the domain of theology, morality, and family relationships,” we were told, “and leave politics to the pros.”

Little by little, though, more things have been included under the broad rubric of “politics.” One by one the secularists co-opted the moral issues, called them political, and told us to get off of the playing field.

The Church was told, “Oh, by the way, abortion is not merely a moral issue anymore. It’s political.” What about the morality of alternate sexuality like lesbianism, homosexuality, man-boy ‘love,’ and incest? “That’s ours, too.” Same-sex marriage? “A civic issue. No place for the church.” Family issues like divorce and child support, reproductive technologies, and the education of our children? “Back off.” Stewardship of the environment, the care of the poor, sex education, birth control, sexual harassment, pornography—including child porn? “All politics.”

Notice the outcome. When Christians follow a policy of “no politics,” it’s easy to silence the moral voice of the Church. Simply label any issue “political,” and believers wave the white flag.

This policy is tantamount to surrender. When we are pushed out of the public square, there’s nothing left to talk about but methods of baptism, eternal security, sovereignty and free will, transubstantiation vs. real presence—that kind of thing. We are allowed to have our parochial discussions behind the closed doors of our churches, but we can speak of nothing that—in the minds of those we are trying to reach—has anything to do with the real world. Is it any wonder our faith is called irrelevant?

Does the Scripture teach we should be silent on anything that doesn’t have to do with saving souls? Is it God’s desire that we abandon everything this side of the grave as profane and utterly lost? Is nothing in this life valuable, important, or worth redeeming?

Ironically, the Church is still being blamed for the moral silence of its past, including the abolitionist movement of the 19th century and the civil rights movement of the 20th century. Christian inactivity in the face of injustice then didn’t communicate purity, but approval of slavery and racial prejudice. Our past unwillingness to be involved in “politics” has been a blight on the Church ever since.

Laws Can Change the Heart

Third, a properly constructed set of laws can change the heart. David Lewellyn of the Simon Greenleaf School of Law observed: “Laws begin by imposing norms of conduct, but conclude by teaching morality and values. As these values are inculcated, the coercive power of law recedes as its moral force rises to govern the conduct of the people.”

How does this happen? A sound moral code—one that’s consonant with the internal capacity for moral development God has given each person (Romans 2:15)—tutors us by adding clarity to our innate sense of right and wrong.

The same process also works in reverse, Lewellyn points out. Because Christians have been silent, “debased public standards which are destructive of life, faith, family, personal morality, and social responsibility are now protected by new, coercive laws and constitutional principles.” Simply put, bad laws corrupt good morals. People are tempted to think that if it’s legal, it must be ethical.

When someone tells me that laws can never change a fallen person’s heart, I ask them if they apply that philosophy to their children. Does the moral training of our children consist merely of preaching the Gospel to them? Wouldn’t we consider it unconscionable to neglect a child’s moral instruction with the excuse that laws can never change a child’s rebellious heart? Don’t we give them rules to obey, then threaten them with punishment for disobedience?

Proverbs instructs us to “train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it” (22:6). We give children rules to obey, then praise or punish them according to their conduct. We expect that a faithful and judicious application of moral guidelines—with appropriate rewards and punishments for behavior—will develop habits of moral virtue.

If this works to build children, why can’t it work to build citizens? If it works to raise a family, why can’t it work to raise a collection of families known as a community? Why do we believe in the transforming power of moral instruction at home, but consider it powerless to inform the moral conscience of a country made up of families just like ours? Same people. Same laws. Same rules. Same process.

The “Separation” of Church and State

The current understanding of “separation of church and state”—the view that the state is thoroughly secular and not influenced by religious values, especially Christian—was completely foreign to the first 150 years of American political thought. Clearly the Fathers did not try to excise every vestige of Christian religion, Christian thought, and Christian values from every facet of public life. They were friendly to Christianity and encouraged its public practice and expression.

It wasn’t until 1947 that the United States Supreme Court first used the concept of “separation” to isolate government from religion. In Everson v. Board of Education, the court lifted a phrase from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a Baptist church in Danbury, Connecticut. The Court ruled, “Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another....In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between church and state.’”

The Infamous Danbury Letter

In the Everson v. Board of Education decision, the Supreme Court quoted Jefferson’s separation language as a normative guideline for understanding the First Amendment. As David Barton points out, “There’s probably no other instance in America’s history where words spoken by an individual have become the law of the land. Jefferson’s remark now carries more weight in judicial circles than does the writing of any other Founder.”

Thomas Jefferson wasn’t a member of the Constitutional Convention, and the phrase “separation of church and state” does not appear anywhere in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. Where did it come from?

On January 1, 1802, Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut, in which he used the phrase “a wall of separation between church and state.” His note was meant to quell the fears of the Danbury congregation who were concerned that a national denomination would be established. Here is the text in question:

I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and state.

What did Jefferson have in mind here? Is there an impregnable barrier erected by the founders that excludes religious-minded people from the political process, an ideological enmity between church and state?

The First Amendment

By contrast to the present confusion about separation, the First Amendment is startling in its clarity, offering no limit to the impact of religious and moral conviction of individual citizens on public policy. It is worth reading often. Here it is:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Please forgive me for stating the obvious: The First Amendment restricts the government, not the people. Jefferson’s wall is a one-way wall. Any religious person, any religious organization, any religious conviction has its place in the public debate. It’s called pluralism, in the classic sense of the word.

Notice there are not two distinct provisions here, but one. Non-establishment has no purpose by itself. Freedom of religion is the goal, and non-establishment is the means. The only way to have true freedom of religion is to keep government out of religion’s affairs. This provides for what Steven Monsma calls “positive neutrality.” This view “defines religious freedom in terms of a governmental neutrality toward religion in which no religion is favored over any other, and neither religion nor secularism is favored over each other.”

The First Amendment was rewritten twelve times to make clear its intent. The concept set forth in the Bill of Rights is “non-establishment,” not isolation. We should strike the “separation” language from our vocabulary.

Calling a Vice a Virtue

The Church can never replace the work of the cross with civic works of righteousness. This is beyond dispute. The goal of Christian political activity, though, is not to build civic righteousness to make a nation acceptable to God. It’s to insure a just society.

Believers should not be suppressed from without by a notion of separation foreign to the Constitution. Nor should they be silenced from within by misguided piety.

Author Philip Yancey put it this way, “We have no mandate to ‘Christianize’ the United States—an impossible goal in any case. Yet Christians can work simultaneously toward a different goal, the ‘moralization’ of society. We can help tether the values and even the laws of society to some basis in transcendence.”

The myth of political passivity unwittingly makes a Christian virtue out of the vice of negligence. When we ignore our obligation to morally instruct the nation merely because someone labels it “politics,” then it won’t be long before the country teems with injustice as every man simply does “what is right in his own eyes.”



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dizzle
October 11th 2004, 10:39 AM
Exactly. Don't want a pesky thing like our faith informing our whole lives.

Da Lone-Warrior
October 17th 2004, 09:37 PM
The separation of Church and State has historically meant their autonomy and this includes religious groups seeking to make changes to laws needing to work within the democratic process.

It also informally mandates that said religious group bear in mind that its public conducts in politics is part of its public witness of the group to others.

dlw

dizzle
October 17th 2004, 09:39 PM
It also informally mandates that said religious group bear in mind that its public conducts in politics is part of its public witness of the group to others.
Nonsense.

This is true, but it has nothing to do with the separation of Church and State which is nowhere stated in our laws to begin with.

Da Lone-Warrior
October 17th 2004, 09:55 PM
Nonsense.

This is true, but it has nothing to do with the separation of Church and State which is nowhere stated in our laws to begin with.

lip-twipping.

Neither is the doctrine of the trinity stated in the Bible, but its been acknowledged and accepted by Christians since the beginning.

Likewise, the separation of Church and State has always been a double-edged pillow from the beginning and the historic role that churches have played as intermediaries between people and the state has been possible due to the decentralization of ecclesiastical leadership due to the many denominations and prevalence of more congregational forms of worship.

So, there's nothing wrong with trying to change laws based on one's religious convictions, but one has to respect the democratic process and bear in tandem a particular venue for reform with the overall witness one bears to the rest of society.
dlw

FreddtFlash
February 27th 2006, 12:56 PM
[b]The “Separation” of Church and State

The First Amendment

By contrast to the present confusion about separation, the First Amendment is startling in its clarity, offering no limit to the impact of religious and moral conviction of individual citizens on public policy. It is worth reading often. Here it is:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Please forgive me for stating the obvious: The First Amendment restricts the government, not the people. Jefferson’s wall is a one-way wall. Any religious person, any religious organization, any religious conviction has its place in the public debate. It’s called pluralism, in the classic sense of the word.

Notice there are not two distinct provisions here, but one. Non-establishment has no purpose by itself. Freedom of religion is the goal, and non-establishment is the means. The only way to have true freedom of religion is to keep government out of religion’s affairs. This provides for what Steven Monsma calls “positive neutrality.” This view “defines religious freedom in terms of a governmental neutrality toward religion in which no religion is favored over any other, and neither religion nor secularism is favored over each other.” The First Amendment was rewritten twelve times to make clear its intent. The concept set forth in the Bill of Rights is “non-establishment,” not isolation. We should strike the “separation” language from our vocabulary.


Why don't we just say, as James Madison did, religion is the duty which we owe to the Creator, and is not within the cognizance of the government?

Fred Flash

Nanny
February 28th 2006, 05:11 AM
Why don't we just say, as James Madison did, religion is the duty which we owe to the Creator, and is not within the cognizance of the government?

Fred Flash
"All men are Created equal ... they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights... among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

FreddtFlash
March 7th 2006, 09:40 AM
"All men are Created equal ... they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights... among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

One of those unalienable rights is the right to worship God according to the dictates of conscience and to be free from government trespasses upon the jurisdiction of the Lord in the form of government attempts to influence our sentiments regarding the duty which we owe to the Creator..

Fred

Nanny
March 9th 2006, 01:05 AM
One of those unalienable rights is the right to worship God according to the dictates of conscience and to be free from government trespasses upon the jurisdiction of the Lord in the form of government attempts to influence our sentiments regarding the duty which we owe to the Creator..

Fred

How do you reconcile Madison's statement that "religion is not within the cognizance of government" with founding documents which refer to "the Creator" as being the basis for our liberties? That's what I couldn't understand. Maybe you can explain?

I think Koukl is on solid ground when he said:


The current understanding of “separation of church and state”—the view that the state is thoroughly secular and not influenced by religious values, especially Christian—was completely foreign to the first 150 years of American political thought. Clearly the Fathers did not try to excise every vestige of Christian religion, Christian thought, and Christian values from every facet of public life. They were friendly to Christianity and encouraged its public practice and expression.

FreddtFlash
March 14th 2006, 11:47 AM
How do you reconcile Madison's statement that "religion is not within the cognizance of government" with founding documents which refer to "the Creator" as being the basis for our liberties? That's what I couldn't understand. Maybe you can explain?

Dear Nanny:

Have you read the Memorial and Remonstrance? It begins with the fundamental and undeniable premise "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." Madison then reasons his way step by step to the conclusion that Religion is exempt from the authority of the Legislative Body (the government).

The "equal right of conscience" formulated by James Madison is the natural, moral and poltical/legal right of every man to be absolutely free to discharge his duty to render homage to the Creator only as he believes to be acceptable to his conscience convictions. Madison's "equal right of conscience" model of religious freedom is not the same as the "toleration" view of religious freedom articulated by John Locke in his famous 1688 essay. Madison's model of religious liberty replaced Lockes concept some time between 1774 and 1833. My view is that the Madisonian model had become the prevailing view, by a very slim margin, by 1787

Madison believed that the right of a man to be free from the attempts of anyone other than God to influence, direct or control the manner and methods he employs to discharge his duty to the Creator, flows from the obligation, imposed by God, to worship him only as he (not the government, not other men and not anyone other than God) dictates.

According to Madison's view a man may attempt, using reason and persuation, to influence another man's manner and methods of discharging his duty to the Creator, but his attempt should not in any way whatsoever employ the authority of the government. His attempt should be authorized by God or by those to whom God has ordained to speak for him in the temporal world (the ordained clergy of his church and even the people of his church provided they are convinced that it is God who directs them).

An excerpt from the Memorial and Remonstrance Madison wrote in 1785 containing Madison's reasoning behind his rule of "no cognizance" is presented below. It took me six months and dozens of readings to understand what Madison was saying.

We the subscribers, citizens of the said Commonwealth, having taken into serious consideration, a Bill printed by order of the last Session of General Assembly, entitled "A Bill establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," and conceiving that the same if finally armed with the sanctions of a law, will be a dangerous abuse of power, are bound as faithful members of a free State to remonstrate against it, and to declare the reasons by which we are determined. We remonstrate against the said Bill,

1. Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate.

This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator.

It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. (Note 1] This is the only religious duty the government should recommend to the people) This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign.

We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man's right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance. True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority.

2. Because Religion be exempt from the authority of the Society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the Legislative Body. The latter are but the creatures and vicegerents of the former. Their jurisdiction is both derivative and limited: it is limited with regard to the co-ordinate departments, more necessarily is it limited with regard to the constituents.

FreddtFlash
March 14th 2006, 12:10 PM
I think Koukl is on solid ground when he said: The current understanding of “separation of church and state”—the view that the state is thoroughly secular and not influenced by religious values, especially Christian—was completely foreign to the first 150 years of American political thought. Clearly the Fathers did not try to excise every vestige of Christian religion, Christian thought, and Christian values from every facet of public life. They were friendly to Christianity and encouraged its public practice and expression.

Dear Nanny:

How, during the Early Years of the Republic, did the Christian value of keeping the Sabbath influence political policy regarding the transportation and opening the mail on Sudays?

How, during the Early Years of the Republic, did Christian values influence political policy regarding the issuance of executive religious recommendations?

How, during the Early Years of the Republic, did Christian values influence political policy regarding prayer during legislative sessions?

How, during the Early Years of the Republic, did Christian values influence the use of legislative authority to allow or require displays of the Ten Commandments in Federal Courts or other facilities?

How, during the Early Years of the Republic, did Christian values influence the use of legislative authority to recommend religious beliefs such as a belief in “one Nation under God” to the people?

Please show me some of the Christian influences on the laws, treaties, policies and actions of the federal government during the Early Years of the Republic.

Fred

Nanny
March 14th 2006, 05:30 PM
Dear Nanny:

How, during the Early Years of the Republic, did the Christian value of keeping the Sabbath influence political policy regarding the transportation and opening the mail on Sudays?

How, during the Early Years of the Republic, did Christian values influence political policy regarding the issuance of executive religious recommendations?

How, during the Early Years of the Republic, did Christian values influence political policy regarding prayer during legislative sessions?

How, during the Early Years of the Republic, did Christian values influence the use of legislative authority to allow or require displays of the Ten Commandments in Federal Courts or other facilities?

How, during the Early Years of the Republic, did Christian values influence the use of legislative authority to recommend religious beliefs such as a belief in “one Nation under God” to the people?

Please show me some of the Christian influences on the laws, treaties, policies and actions of the federal government during the Early Years of the Republic.

Fred

Fred, can I keep this simple? Is it your position that "during the early years of the Republic," Christian values had no influence on political policy in the areas of: (1) Sabbath keeping in operation of mail service, (2) prayer during legislative sessions, (3) display of Ten Commandments in Fed. courts, (4) recommended religious belief(s)...?

Before I spend time doing lots of research on the first three, regarding (4), I think we can agree that there should be no obligation on citizens to believe in a certain way. This would be contrary to Christian belief as well. They were very guarded against the old European way. That's a far cry from saying that Christian values and ideals had no influence on affairs of government as well as on the formation of the Republic.

I understand that Hamilton was against the intrusion of government in the affairs of the church, but I have still be to convinced that they considered Christian ideals an intrusion in government.

Sorry I can't address your longer previous post. I just can't readily get my mind around the legal language. I'm not demeaning it, I just didn't thoroughly understand it.

Nanny
March 14th 2006, 08:08 PM
Sorry, Fred, I meant "Madison" not "Hamilton."

FreddtFlash
March 21st 2006, 10:23 AM
They were very guarded against the old European way. That's a far cry from saying that Christian values and ideals had no influence on affairs of government as well as on the formation of the Republic.

I understand that Hamilton was against the intrusion of government in the affairs of the church, but I have still be to convinced that they considered Christian ideals an intrusion in government.

Dear Nanny:

"Christian values and ideas" is vague and expansive concept that could be employed to smuggle just about anything into government legislation or policy. Please define your terms more precisely or provide some examples or illustrations of what you are referring to.

Religion, for First Amendment purposes, is the duty which we owe to our Creator. See James Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance (1785), The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom (1786); and Reynolds v. U. S. (1878) A duty which we owe to our Creator is an obligation imposed by God and owed exclusively to God. See James Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance (1785) and the Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom (1786). Examples: The duty to believe in the God that brought the Children of Israel out of bondage in the land of Egypt, the duty to make no graven images, the duty to worship no idols, the duty to keep the Sabbath, the duty to pray and the duty to contribute to the support of the Gospel.

A "civil duty" (as distinguished from a duty that is owed exclusively to the Creator) is one imposed by God or by man or by both that is owed by a man to his fellow man. Examples: The duty not to murder, steal, lie, cheat, perform an abortion, exceed the speed limit, park in a no parking zone or to practice Christian forbearance, charity and love.

*********************

The religion of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate...What is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. See James Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance (1785)

In matters of religion, no man's right is abridged by the institution of civil society and religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance...Because religion be exempt from the authority of the society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the legislative body. See James Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance (1785)

It is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere when religious principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order. See the Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom (1786)

Fred

Nanny
March 21st 2006, 05:06 PM
Dear Nanny:

"Christian values and ideas" is vague and expansive concept that could be employed to smuggle just about anything into government legislation or policy. Please define your terms more precisely or provide some examples or illustrations of what you are referring to.

Koukl quotes Philip Yancey, “We have no mandate to ‘Christianize’ the United States—an impossible goal in any case. Yet Christians can work simultaneously toward a different goal, the ‘moralization’ of society. We can help tether the values and even the laws of society to some basis in transcendence.”

I think that remark hints at a philosophical divide. Should the laws (and morality) of society have some basis in transcendence?

FreddtFlash
March 28th 2006, 08:58 AM
Koukl quotes Philip Yancey, “We have no mandate to ‘Christianize’ the United States—an impossible goal in any case. Yet Christians can work simultaneously toward a different goal, the ‘moralization’ of society. We can help tether the values and even the laws of society to some basis in transcendence.” I think that remark hints at a philosophical divide. Should the laws (and morality) of society have some basis in transcendence?

What values and what laws of society? Examples please.

FRF

Nanny
March 28th 2006, 08:48 PM
What values and what laws of society? Examples please.

FRF

To Fred and All:
Since Fred consistently takes over a week to respond, anyone can jump in here. Otherwise it's probably best I just drop it. I find it hard to converse after these lags.

And now, to respond -- what laws and values??? This question implies that certain laws have a basis in one belief system, while different laws rest on a different basis.

Without a cohesive legal system, the whole structure will eventually fall, or give way to another system. All laws are based on some belief system.

Our Republic was established on the belief in a transcendant Creator and natural law, I think in the words of Jefferson, "the law of nature and nature's God." Koukl in his excellent article reminds Christians of our responsibility to be involved in the political process. This involvement would reflect our belief in a transcendant God.



N.

FreddtFlash
April 4th 2006, 10:42 AM
Our Republic was established on the belief in a transcendant Creator and natural law, I think in the words of Jefferson, "the law of nature and nature's God." Koukl in his excellent article reminds Christians of our responsibility to be involved in the political process. This involvement would reflect our belief in a transcendant God.

James Madison believed in a transcendant Creator who ordined a Total Separation of Religion and Government as ordained by the Savior in Matthew 22:21. That belief was shared by most American's during the early years of the Republic.

During the early years, neither the federal government or many of the state government's issued religious recomendations via executive proclamation, posted religious commandments in courts and schools, legislated a recommendation to believe in "one Nation under God" or required the people's trust in God to be declared on the nations coins.

"The law of nature and nature's God" was a phrased coined by the Deists not by Christians. The "Natural law" advocated by Thomas Jefferson did not include the Bible or any form of "revelation."

Why should "Christians" be involved in politics? To encourage, promote or impose Christianity? To use the government to express their religion? Why?



***************

Who is Nature's God?

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.[1]

In the "Declaration of Independence," the founding document of what would become the United States, Thomas Jefferson mentions "nature's God." Unfortunately, this phrase is unclear. The religious beliefs of Jefferson were much debated in his time and still are over two centuries later. Through the letters and other writings of Jefferson, it is possible to construct an outline of his beliefs. Although he supported the moral teachings of Jesus, Jefferson believed in a creator similar to the God of deism. In the tradition of deism, Jefferson based his God on reason and rejected revealed religion.

Jefferson's parents reared him in the Episcopal Church. Although there is no known record of him being baptized, it is almost certain that an Anglican clergyman baptized him. Records show that both Thomas Jefferson and his father Peter were elected vestrymen. These positions, however, merely reflected the Jeffersons' social status; they were both land-owning and educated men. The positions were given "with small regard to their personal convictions or even their way of life."[2]

That Jefferson participated in the administration of the parish does not reflect his specific beliefs. Despite his social and familial ties to the Episcopal Church, Jefferson came to disbelieve its creeds and rejected most Christian doctrine. In his book The Religion of Thomas Jefferson, Henry Foote says that Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus but he viewed him as a "human teacher."[3] He believed only what his reason allowed: "His knowledge of science led him to reject all miracles, including the virgin birth and the bodily resurrection of Jesus."[4] By the time he was a young adult, Jefferson had developed his own religious views outside the framework of any sect.

Jefferson believed that the various sects of Christianity had corrupted the original message of Jesus: "They [the teachings of Jesus] have been still more disfigured by the corruptions of schismatizing followers, who have found an interest in sophisticating and perverting the simple doctrines he taught."[5] However, Jefferson did believe that the teachings of Jesus had some merit.

Jefferson felt that religion was a deeply private matter. People did not need to proclaim their beliefs: "I never told my own religion nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wish to change another's creed."[6] Jefferson saw religion as private and therefore found priests unnecessary. He wrote in the same letter "I have ever thought religion a concern purely between our God and our consciences for which we were accountable to him, and not to the priests."[7] He only spoke about his own religious beliefs when he was asked to, and only in his private letters did he speak clearly of his beliefs.

Without supporting revealed religion, Jefferson subscribed to the moral teachings of Jesus. He stated this belief explicitly in a letter to John Adams in which he wrote that the moral code of Jesus was "the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man."[8] Jefferson even made a collection of Jesus' moral teachings from the Bible which seemed to be in their original simplicity. He used this collection as an ethical guide to his own life.

Jefferson's God was the source of moral values. In a letter to his nephew Peter Carr, he wrote that "He who made us would have been a pitiful bungler, if He had made the rules of our moral conduct a matter of science."[9] Rather, God made man "with a sense of right and wrong."[10] People were responsible for their actions on earth and would be rewarded or punished in some kind of afterlife.

More important than beliefs to Jefferson was the way people lived their lives. "I have ever judged the religion of others by their lives . . . for it is in our lives and not from our words, that our religion must be read."[11] In a letter to Adams, Jefferson concluded about religion: "the result of your 50 or 60 years of religious reading, in four words 'be just and good' is that in which all our inquiries must end."[12] This emphasis on behavior over belief was at the core of Jefferson's creed, although he did think that morality was connected to belief in God.

Jefferson based his belief in God on reason. In a letter to John Adams, Jefferson wrote that he believed in God because of the argument from design:

I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe, in it's [sic] parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of it's [sic] composition. . . it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe that there is . . . a fabricator of all things.[13]

After applying his faculty of reason, in which he placed much faith, Jefferson found that he had to believe in a creator.

Jefferson believed most aspects of the creator could not be known. He rejected revealed religion because revealed religion suggests a violation of the laws of nature. For revelation or any miracle to occur, the laws of nature would necessarily be broken. Jefferson did not accept this violation of natural laws. He attributed to God only such qualities as reason suggested. "He described God as perfect and good, but otherwise did not attempt an analysis of the nature of God."[14] Also in a letter to Adams, Jefferson said, "Of the nature of this being [God] we know nothing."[15]

Although Jefferson never gave a label to his set of beliefs, they are consistent with the ideas of deism, a general religious orientation developed during the Enlightenment. Jefferson, being a non-sectarian, did not subordinate his beliefs to any label. He once said, "I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion...or in anything else."[16]

Deism was not actually a formal religion, but rather was a label used loosely to describe certain religious views. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word deist was used negatively during Jefferson's lifetime.[17] The label was often applied to freethinkers like Jefferson as a slander rather than as a precise description. Thus the deist label is not highly specific. Deists were characterized by a belief in God as a creator and "believed only those Christian doctrines that could meet the test of reason."[18] Deists did not believe in miracles, revealed religion, the authority of the clergy, or the divinity of Jesus. Like Jefferson they "regarded ethics, not faith, as the essence of religion."[19]

"Nature's God" was clearly the God of deism in all important ways. That Jefferson included God in the "Declaration of Independence" is very significant because it helped lay the foundation for a civil religion in America. Paul Johnson addressed the civil religion begun by the founders in his article, "The Almost-Chosen People,"[20] saying that the United States was unique because all religious beliefs were respected. People were more concerned with "moral conduct rather than dogma." So Jefferson helped create a society in which different religions could coexist peacefully because of the emphasis on morality over specific belief.[21]

Endnotes

1. Thomas Jefferson, The Complete Jefferson, ed. Saul K. Padover (New York: Duell, Sloan & Pearce, 1943), 28.
2. Henry Wilder Foote, The Religion of Thomas Jefferson (Boston: Beacon, 1947), 6.
3. Ibid., 57.
4. Ibid.
5. Ibid., 55.
6. Jefferson, 955.
7. Ibid.
8. Ibid., 951.
9. Arnold A. Wettstein, "Religionless Religion in the Letters and Papers from Monticello," Religion in Life, 46 (Summer: 1977): 158.
10. Ibid., 154.
11. Jefferson, 955.
12. William B. Huntley, "Jefferson's Public and Private Religion," South Atlantaic Quarterly, 79 (Summer 1980): 288.
13. Lester J. Clapton, ed., The Adams-Jefferson Letters (New York: Van Rees, 1959), 592.
14. Huntley, 79: 288.
15. The Adams-Jefferson Letters, 592.
16. Wettstein, 152.
17. J.A. Simpson and E.S. C. Weiner, eds., Oxford English Dictionary (Clarendon Press: Oxford, 1989), s.v. deism.
18. Marvin Perry, Western Civilization (Houghton Mifflin: Boston, 1990), 280.
19. Ibid., 280.
20. Paul Johnson, "The Almost-Chosen People," American History, R.J. Maddox, ed., vol.I, 10th ed. (Guilford, Conn: Dushkin Publishing Group, 1989): 34-37.
Ibid., 37.

FVF

FreddtFlash
April 4th 2006, 12:01 PM
Does anyone know where I might find the 1853 report of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary, in relation to the expediency of abolishing the office of chaplain in the public service?
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsj&fileName=044/llsj044.db&recNum=122&itemLink=D?hlaw:1:./temp/%7Eammem_eRC3::%230440123&linkText=1

FVF

Nanny
April 5th 2006, 08:35 PM
James Madison believed in a transcendant Creator who ordined a Total Separation of Religion and Government as ordained by the Savior in Matthew 22:21. That belief was shared by most American's during the early years of the Republic.

During the early years, neither the federal government or many of the state government's issued religious recomendations via executive proclamation, posted religious commandments in courts and schools, legislated a recommendation to believe in "one Nation under God" or required the people's trust in God to be declared on the nations coins.

"The law of nature and nature's God" was a phrased coined by the Deists not by Christians. The "Natural law" advocated by Thomas Jefferson did not include the Bible or any form of "revelation."

Fred,
My point was that the founders appealed to a transcendent basis for morality. I recognize the influence of Kant and Hume with the emphsis on reason over revelation. I also know something about the Deists (or as they were called).

You may like to refer to another well-footnoted Koukl article in which he says "Thomas Jefferson was more Unitarian than Deist or Christian."
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5703&printer_friendly=1

In this same article, he documents that 51 of the 55 Constitutional Convention were Christians and would have been greatly influenced by Christian thought.

Question: Do you hold the necessity for a transcendent basis for morality? I think I've asked you this before.


Why should "Christians" be involved in politics? To encourage, promote or impose Christianity? To use the government to express their religion? Why?

I'll quote just one small part, but might I suggest you read again Koukl's entire article. If the Church doesn’t stand in the gap giving substance to the words “good” and “evil,” then nothing prevents leadership from reversing the definitions, praising evil and punishing good. Tragically, this is already happening.

Certainly, Christians do not want to "impose Christianity" -- I've said it before. You seem to be on the defensive while, on the other hand, I believe the tide has turned in the other direction where Christians and Christian thought is being marginalized.

Your research also showed that (even) "Jefferson's God was the source of moral values."
Question: Do you agree that laws reflect moral values?

Hopefully, we're making progress. :wink:

FreddtFlash
April 8th 2006, 03:36 PM
Do you hold the necessity for a transcendent basis for morality?

No. Should I?

Certainly, Christians do not want to "impose Christianity" -- I've said it before. You seem to be on the defensive while, on the other hand, I believe the tide has turned in the other direction where Christians and Christian thought is being marginalized.

Too bad. The government is not one marginalizing it. Genuine Chiristianity cannot be marginalized. Are you familiar with the first 313 years of Christianity?

Do you agree that laws reflect moral values?

Some do. Sone don't. Some reflect concern for education, health and safety.

FVF

I am not receiving notices of new posts. Please send me an email @ 1slice@comcast.net when you post.

Nanny
April 9th 2006, 02:58 PM
No. Should I?

That puts you in opposition with the nation's founders.



Too bad. The government is not one marginalizing it. Genuine Chiristianity cannot be marginalized. Are you familiar with the first 313 years of Christianity?

If one lived previous to 300 AD, you'd be concerned about the lions. During Constantine, a Christian would be even more concerned about obligatory baptism, which imo was more dangerous to Christianity than the lions. However, I am a Christian and a citizen of the United States, and the danger here and now is apathy on the part of Christians and those who maintain traditional moral standards.



Some do. Sone don't. Some reflect concern for education, health and safety.

Please read my post #17. There is an element of right and wrong, justice and injustice, in every law. The debate is over what philosophical approach one takes. Maybe you'd like to tell how you determine right and wrong since you reject a transcendent basis?



I am not receiving notices of new posts. Please send me an email @ 1slice@comcast.net when you post.

I'll send you a PM. I think you can request to be notified when someone posts to a subscribed thread. Go to Control Panel. ... or maybe someone else who better knows their way around here can explain.

FreddtFlash
April 9th 2006, 04:27 PM
That puts you in opposition with the nation's founders.

What is your concept of a "transcendent basis?" When I discuss the founders I like to use the words that that used. What was their word for "transcendent basis?"

I am a Christian and a citizen of the United States, and the danger here and now is apathy on the part of Christians and those who maintain traditional moral standards.

Danger of what?

Please read my post #17. There is an element of right and wrong, justice and injustice, in every law. The debate is over what philosophical approach one takes.

Ok. I will do that and post a response later.

Maybe you'd like to tell how you determine right and wrong since you reject a transcendent basis?

I listen to my conscience. That's a transcendent basis, is it not?

I'll send you a PM. I think you can request to be notified when someone posts to a subscribed thread. Go to Control Panel. ... or maybe someone else who better knows their way around here can explain.

I have subscibed to this thread but I don't get notifications. Thanks for the PM my friend.

FVF

Nanny
April 12th 2006, 11:15 AM
What is your concept of a "transcendent basis?" When I discuss the founders I like to use the words that that used. What was their word for "transcendent basis?"

Nature/natural law was a philosophic presupposition, an attempt to find an absolute basis for law. This was the period of "enlightenment" and this veneration of Nature was discovered by reason. It was a transcendent base (absolute/objective), but inadequate in the area of morals. Nature is both peaceful and violent, etc.

The unique timing of the birth of our nation was that two streams of thought merged. The second stream that joined the "enlightenment" (natural law)was a religious one. The authority of Scripture (not the hierarchial church system) grew out of the Reformation; the Scriptures provided an objective, transcendent basis for morality. This moral consensus was not imposed by government; it was the result of personal belief. All were not Christians, but there was a general acceptance of Scripture (Judeo/Christian) as the basis for morality.

It was not the consensus that determined morality and law; it was the acceptance of an absolute/objective basis. See Justice pointing to the "Word of God" in painting by Paul Robert.



I listen to my conscience. That's a transcendent basis, is it not?

No. It is not an objective transcendent "absolute"; it is a subjective basis. The dictates of my conscience can vary, depending on the will. Lack of moral absolutes results in a fragmentation of both the individual and a society. There are long term results to short term, arbitrary decision making.

For instance, Materialism may speak of human rights, but w/o a sufficient absolute base in absolute truth, it can interpret, deny or apply the idea at will. That's why it has been said that our liberty eminates from a (transcendent) Creator, not the government. If the government gives liberty, it can take it away.

I would add to Mr.Koukl's excellent article that a second factor is necessary. That being serious minded Christians, rational/thoughtful Christians, who learn how to apply Scriptural principles to the decisions and policies of everyday life. Instead I fear we have faddish Christians, emotional Christians, superficial Christians, who give credence to the popular, distorted picture of Christianity that is used by the media and (sorry to say) the many of our academic elite. :sigh: In addition to apathy, we have a deeper problem; our problem is not faith in politics, it is a lack of deep faith that was apparent in our early leaders.


Sorry for the delay. These are busy days for me.
N.