Attempted logical explanation of Trinity & deity of Christ

[Chappie]

Chappie, can you explain to me...logically... how Jesus, while on earth...was not half God and half man...but FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN?

I can sure try huh? But first I would ask a favor of you. In your first response to my answer, would you please deal first with any portion of my response that you consider illogical. Unscriptural we can deal with after that...

I realize that logic does not always produce a perfect answer, still it is all that we have to work with (coupled with information) that has the slightest chance of producing the reality that we seek.

It is folly to try and formulate doctrine based on illogical and unreasonable conclusions. We may not always find truth using logic, but we will never find truth using illogic and unreasonableness...

Now to answer your question with scripture as the foundation, and logic and reasonableness as the tools that we utilize in seeking truth...

You ask; “How Jesus, while on earth...was not half God and half man...
but FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN“?

Being that Christ used earthly realities to shed light on heavenly realities in his parables, I shall attempt the same. Parables was one of Christ’s most effective teaching tools…

Your answer, in parable form:
A friend of mine is a party clown, she dresses up in a clowns garments (the incarnation) and performs for children’s birthdays. Before she putt’s on the clowns garments (prior to the incarnation Christ is The Word) she is Tonya. After she putt’s on the clowns garments, she is bozo, the clown. After the incarnation, Christ was known as Jesus. Before, he is The Word. When Tonya puts on her clown garments, she remains fully Tonya, but now because she meets all the criteria for being a clown, she is now fully a clown. (Remember, at this point I need only remain faithful to logic.)

By putting on a clowns garments and becoming fully a clown, Tonya does not cease being Tonya. Although she looks like a clown, act's like a clown, and meets all the personal requirements for being a clown, logic will tell us that she is a clown, and in reality (that reality) she really is a clown. She fully meets all the definitions of a clown.

Christ clothed himself within the reality that is human, by clothing himself in humanity, meeting all the criteria for being human, he essentially became a human in all respects. (He walked, he talked, he loved, he hated, he hungered, he thirsted, he worked, he rested, he laughed, and he cried. (Bible does not say so, but I think he even took baths… A small giggle) Still he never ceased to be God. But while in the flesh in order to be human, he had to be subject to the same thing that humans are subject to. And he had to deal with those things with tools that are indigenous to humans. He had to overcome obstacles with only devices that are available to humans.

Christ did not trade his deity in on humanity, his deity took on humanity. He set aside that position (position, not essence) of deity that he had as The Word, and added the position of a human being with all of it's lamentations.

In John 17 he prays to the father to return him to that position of glory that he had as The Word with the Father before the world was..... The word did not change in essence, his position changed for the work of the cross... (Show me illogic only, we can discuss scripture later.)

and can you explain to me...logically, of course... how God is...three persons... Father...Son...and Holy Spirit... the Father is God...
the Son is God... and the Holy Spirit is God... and yet...they are ONE ESSENCE... they are ONE GOD? And... don't forget to explain it logically, please.

The essence of God is spirit. The essense of God is an immaterial essense. God "is" Spirit. Notice, the bible does not in saying who God is, that he is "A" spirit. God is spirit...

Three persons, the personage of the Father is Spirit, the personage of the son is Spirit, and the personage of the Holy Spirit is Spirit. Three persons, one Spirit.

Three persons, one spirit, one God. God is essentially Spirit.

The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, they are three persons, each meet all the criteria indigenous to being a person, but as Spirit, they are one Spirit. Three persons, one Spirit. One Spirit, one God. God is not a person, God is Spirit.

Men are not spirit. Men have a spirit. Men are {1) body, {2) soul, and {3} spirit. One body, one soul, and one spirit constitutes one person. Father (1) Son, (2) Holy Spirit (3) One Spirit. One God. Three persons, one Spirit, one God.

Now, please show me where I deviated from what is logical and what is reasonable... Show me an unreasonable and illogical sequence of events. Bottom line, we do not have to be truthful to be logical, but if we are illogical, even if we stumble upon truth, we can not logically explain how we got there....

Thank you for this opportunity to discuss gainfully. I gave it my best, that is all that I present it to you as.....

[Chappie]

Huuuuummmmm......

[seer]

It sounds reasonable to me Chappie.

[RoadRunner]

Chappie you said, "God is not a person, God is Spirit".

Could you clarify this a little more? You mean that God is three Persons and not just a Person, right?

[Chappie]

Chappie you said, "God is not a person, God is Spirit".

Could you clarify this a little more? You mean that God is three Persons and not just a Person, right?

Right....
Main Entry: per·son
Pronunciation: 'p&r-s&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French persone, from Latin persona actor's mask, character in a play, person, probably from Etruscan phersu mask, from Greek prosOpa, plural of prosOpon face, mask -- more at PROSOPOPOEIA
1 : HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL -- sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes <chairperson> <spokesperson>
2 : a character or part in or as if in a play : GUISE

3 a : "one of the three" modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b : the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures

4 a archaic : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being; also : the body and clothing <unlawful search of the person>
5 : the personality of a human being : SELF
6 : one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties
7 : reference of a segment of discourse to the speaker, to one spoken to, or to one spoken of as indicated by means of certain pronouns or in many languages by verb inflection.

Person... While being a full description of one man, it represents only 1/3 of the description of God.. God is Spirit, the oneness occurs in the Spirit with God. God is Spirit. In the Trinitarian existence; Body, soul, & spirit constitutes one person in men. In the Trinitarian existence of God, the oneness occurs in the Spirit. Three persons, one Spirit, one God. God is Spirit... Not "A" Spirit.. Spirit...

I realize that this concept of the trinity is not taught nor considered in this light within the christian community. Still it appears to be logical, reasonable, & and scriptural to me.

[Chappie]

Where are the nay sayers.. I need to discuss this one. Any brave souls out there?

[mickiel]

Where are the nay sayers.. I need to discuss this one. Any brave souls out there?



God is not a person, he is a Spirit. Every definition of - person- details humanity. Be it a person, a personality, a personage or a persona, all mean human, none mean Spirit.When simplicity evades a mind, the mind is not paying attention to it. Men pay attention to themselves, listen to themselves, think like themselves, so they only hear themselves.

[Chappie]

God is not a person, he is a Spirit.

God is not a Spirit, God is Spirit. Therein lies the essense of his existence.

God is not a person as ascribed to humanity, yet we were created in his image. So there must be some semblance there…

What do we mean when we say "person"?
Main Entry: per·son
Pronunciation: 'p&r-s&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French persone, from Latin persona actor's mask, character in a play, person, probably from Etruscan phersu mask, from Greek prosOpa, plural of prosOpon face, mask -- more at PROSOPOPOEIA
1 : HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL -- sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes <chairperson> <spokesperson>
2 : a character or part in or as if in a play : GUISE (3 a : external appearance. SEMBLANCE b : PRETEXT ) {External appearance, not necessarily physical. Semblance, Apparition, image, likeness.

3 a : one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b : the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures
4 a archaic : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being; also : the body and clothing <unlawful search of the person>

Personality… 3 : the complex of characteristics that distinguishes an individual or a nation or group; especially : the totality of an individual's behavioral and emotional characteristics

Although God is not a human being, he certainly possess all the attributes that are indigenous to a person. Meaning an individual that has characteristics though they may be the same in essence, they are always separate and apart from another individual.

A person is distinct in form, character, and is capable of expression separate and apart from another individual. (Person) So in speaking of the trinity, I believe that, that which is indigenous to personage can be applied then speaking of the Trinitarian existence of God. Still, if we were to say that he was three entities united in one spirit, that I believe would be a correct expression also.

Every definition of - person- details humanity.

Yet men are created in God’s image, so the semblance is there..

Be it a person, a personality, a personage or a persona, all mean human, none mean Spirit.

Yet God has all the qualities of each…

When simplicity evades a mind, the mind is not paying attention to it. Men pay attention to themselves, listen to themselves, think like themselves, so they only hear themselves.

So, what am I to conclude when I read the words of a man. Men are what we are, all of us. We have no other existence which which to enlighten us...

Where is the simplicity that you mention. You have made a statement that denies, that’s easy. Now can you explain and affirm through discourse, the trinity. What would you call them? How would you refer to them in a way that you could be understood, yet biblical and accurate. Would you consider, the three entities of the trinity to be more accurate than the three person of the trinity

[mickiel]

[[Where is the simplicity that you mention. You have made a statement that denies, that’s easy. Now can you explain and affirm through discourse, the trinity. What would you call them? How would you refer to them in a way that you could be understood, yet biblical and accurate. Would you consider, the three entities of the trinity to be more accurate than the three person of the trinity[/QUOTE]



The trinity is mans effort to explain God. Mans effort to explain God is an well established means of satans will being accomplished in the confusion of mankind. He uses the tradition of men, or the established thinking patterns of men, to explain God. In God we live and move, and have our being. Meaning God is responsible for all levels of mankinds understanding. For satan to insert deception, he must factor God out of this equation, and replace that void with the wisdom of men. Cause them to lean on their own understanding. The trinity is the understanding of men. It is created by the wisdom of men. There is only one God, there is only one Jesus. This is what Jesus meant when he said I and my father are one. They are one being each independantly. The wisdom of men interpits his statement to mean he and God are one being imposed into each other in some weird symbiosis. They include the Holy Spirit into this union and the trinity doctrine( or way of explaining God) was created. The Holy Spirit is not a person. God is not a person.

A person is human, end quote. A spirit is not human. God cannot be a person. Is God a personage? NO! Even a personage is human. Does God have a personality, or a human quality--- NO! Nothiong about God is human. Even Gods image is not human. God is devine and holy, nothing human can be devine. God is perfect and sinless. Nothing in flesh, except Christ, is perfect and sinless. God is uncreated, nothing that has a personage is uncreated. God created all flesh, or all personalitys.

How many personalitys does God have? NONE. Personalitys are human content. Now, does God have a mind?. YES. How many minds does God have? Everything God gave a mind, he gave it a Spirit. God has SEVEN Spirits that he has REVEALED, who knows how many more he has. If he has given everything with a mind, a Spirit, and this be patterned after himself, then it is highly possible that God has upwards of seven minds, nothing even remotely reflecting some limited trinity concept. God is far MORE than we know. He cannot be limited by numerical context or limited human definition, as in persons.

[Chappie]

Where is the simplicity that you mention. You have made a statement that denies, that’s easy. Now can you explain and affirm through discourse, the trinity. What would you call them? How would you refer to them in a way that you could be understood, yet biblical and accurate. Would you consider, the three entities of the trinity to be more accurate than the three person of the trinity

The trinity is mans effort to explain God. Mans effort to explain God is an well established means of satans will being accomplished in the confusion of mankind. He uses the tradition of men, or the established thinking patterns of men, to explain God. In God we live and move, and have our being. Meaning God is responsible for all levels of mankind’s understanding. For Satan to insert deception, he must factor God out of this equation, and replace that void with the wisdom of men. Cause them to lean on their own understanding. The trinity is the understanding of men. It is created by the wisdom of men. There is only one God, there is only one Jesus. This is what Jesus meant when he said I and my father are one. They are one being each independently. The wisdom of men interpits his statement to mean he and God are one being imposed into each other in some weird symbiosis. They include the Holy Spirit into this union and the trinity doctrine( or way of explaining God) was created. The Holy Spirit is not a person. God is not a person.
A person is human, end quote. A spirit is not human. God cannot be a person. Is God a personage? NO! Even a personage is human. Does God have a personality, or a human quality--- NO! Nothing about God is human. Even Gods image is not human. God is divine and holy, nothing human can be divine. God is perfect and sinless. Nothing in flesh, except Christ, is perfect and sinless. God is uncreated, nothing that has a personage is uncreated. God created all flesh, or all personalitys.

How many personalities does God have? NONE. Personalities are human content. Now, does God have a mind?. YES. How many minds does God have? Everything God gave a mind, he gave it a Spirit. God has SEVEN Spirits that he has REVEALED, who knows how many more he has. If he has given everything with a mind, a Spirit, and this be patterned after himself, then it is highly possible that God has upwards of seven minds, nothing even remotely reflecting some limited trinity concept. God is far MORE than we know. He cannot be limited by numerical context or limited human definition, as in persons.

First you tell me; "The trinity is mans effort to explain God. Mans effort to explain God is an well established means of Satan’s will being accomplished in the confusion of mankind. ".

Then you proceeded with your definition of what God is and is not. (Emboldened) Is this just another satanic effort on man's part to define God. In light of that statement, you discredit and even vilify your own assumptions about God... Are you making the same mistake that you warn others about?

[Arimathea]

The question, as being explored here in various ways, might be summarized as: Exactly what (or who) is God? Essence. We (mortal men) are attempting to answer it.

What if God weighed in on this subject? After all, He would be the expert. We can speculate, but He knows the truth of it.

What if God sat down at our round table, and drafted a post, in His own words, to answer the question, what would it be?

This, I submit, has taken place, and God chose a different medium to contain His answer. The wineskin of verbal discourse could not contain the wine that is God's essence. His chosen medium was (and is) Christ. That is one very important reason He came, not to "tell us" but to "model out" an answer to the age old question. If any man wonders, "what is God?" I submit, look upon Jesus, the answer to the question that HE sent, and you will not be able to improve upon it, if you had a million keyboards to type on, and a million hands to type with, and a million thoughts to impart.

Shalom,

Ari

[mickiel]

First you tell me; "The trinity is mans effort to explain God. Mans effort to explain God is an well established means of Satan’s will being accomplished in the confusion of mankind. ".

Then you proceeded with your definition of what God is and is not. (Emboldened) Is this just another satanic effort on man's part to define God. In light of that statement, you discredit and even vilify your own assumptions about God... Are you making the same mistake that you warn others about?


\

Well perhaps I am, we can do no more than think with what we have been given to do so with. Although I may state what I think God is or is not, I truly admit to not knowing anything about him. I can only give my own views. In these views, or any view of man, I believe we can know what God is not, by our study of scripture. In my experience with christians, I know I see scripture differently than they do. I see it differently than Catholics do, Prodestants, Jehovahs Witnesses, Muslims, any religon out there, I differ with them all. I do not expect any to understand me, I simply do what you do, explain what you believe.

I do not know God, nor Jesus Christ, and will make no such claims. I am a sinner in search of hope, and have not found this hope in any of the above listed religons, I see only confusion in them, but I see it in myself also. So I do not seek out men to gain understanding of what or who God is, I seek only him. If one looks to men, then the answers you receive can only come from what men know and understand, your answers can only go as far as they have gone, I find that distance as complettely innsufficent for me, I need to go futher than men have gone.

How men see three Gods to me is simply innsufficent, I see more in God than any number listed in the cataloged knowledge of mankind. And I know that what I see is through a dark glass, simply unclear. Because in me, in my flersh, is no good thing. My thoughts, my understanding clouded by sin and satan. I conclude that the scripture is then true, no man can understand the things of God, what God is, unless God reveals it to the man himself. So God is responsible for the confusion of mankind. He made satan to be "the author of it", and satan was a liar from his beginning, his conception, his creation, he was never good and then "fell" as many believed, and I first believed.

Salvation then is far greater than I first believed. God is more than I first believed. I am led then to study, and seek Gods truth because the veil on mankinds understanding of God , is from God himself, Rom. 11:32. But I see a great hope in God, as explained in Jeremiah 29:31-34, the time is willed by God to come when everyman will receive and understand the things of God, everyone. Such is the beauty that now shapes my mind. The hope that includes everyone and seperates none from Christ. This then is the gospel of grace that grips my mind, my hope, and this gospel determines my understanding of God.

[Ormly]

So what preacher gave you a kick start in the direction your taking? Moon, Koresh, Yogi bear, who? It had to be somebody. Always is.

[mickiel]

So what preacher gave you a kick start in the direction your taking? Moon, Koresh, Yogi bear, who? It had to be somebody. Always is.



If I may seriously answer a question born of foolishness, I listen to no preacher, and no fabrication of anything you may think has influenced me. I trust nothing encased in flesh, and comming out of the mouth of men, yourself included.

[avegen]

God's Triunity:
God the Father: He is commonly known as the Creator. No living human can look upon Him. He assigns the angels what to do. He keeps the Book of Life.
God the Son: He is the Savior of mankind. He took on the entire world's burden of sin while remaining sinless Himself. So when someone asks His forgiveness, He will tell the Father "Hey, this guy is okay, He's with me". He keeps the Book of Life of the Lamb.

God the Holy Ghost: He performs the miracles through the followers of the Son (e.g., speaking of tongues, miraculous healings, et cetera).

The most commonly asked question about the Triunity is "How can God be three different beings but also One at the same time?" Well, simple: how can time exist of three separate things, but they're all one and the same? Past is different from Present which is different from Future, yet they are all Time. The same for Solid, Liquid, and Gas as making up Matter. Or Length, Width, and Height making up Dimensions. They're all three separate things but they all make up one whole thing. And to top it off, Time, Matter, and Dimensions are all separate things, but they also make up the Universe. So basically, we live in a triunity of triunities.

As to answer why there is a Triunity: How can someone love others if they have no one else to gain love for? As such, God is a Triunity made up entirely of love. He expressed His love to His creations by creating them in the first place.

Finally, proof in even the Old Testament of the Bible, specifically, Genesis, that there is a Triunity is that God refers to Himself, during the Creation, as "Us" and "Our". Also, in the Hebrew text, He is called "Elohim". If you have read about the Cherubim or Seraphim in the Bible, you will know that Cherubim is plural for Cherub, and Seraphim is plural for Seraph. So if God is referred to as Elohim, as opposed to the word "El" (mighty one) then this suggests that God is more than just one being. Also, both the Old Testament, and Jesus in the New Testament, say that absolutely no living human can see God the Father. But in the OT, people have seen God sitting on His throne. If no living human can see God [the Father], then it suggest they've seen God [the Son].

[mickiel]

God's Triunity:
God the Father: He is commonly known as the Creator. No living human can look upon Him. He assigns the angels what to do. He keeps the Book of Life.
God the Son: He is the Savior of mankind. He took on the entire world's burden of sin while remaining sinless Himself. So when someone asks His forgiveness, He will tell the Father "Hey, this guy is okay, He's with me". He keeps the Book of Life of the Lamb.

God the Holy Ghost: He performs the miracles through the followers of the Son (e.g., speaking of tongues, miraculous healings, et cetera).

The most commonly asked question about the Triunity is "How can God be three different beings but also One at the same time?" Well, simple: how can time exist of three separate things, but they're all one and the same? Past is different from Present which is different from Future, yet they are all Time. The same for Solid, Liquid, and Gas as making up Matter. Or Length, Width, and Height making up Dimensions. They're all three separate things but they all make up one whole thing. And to top it off, Time, Matter, and Dimensions are all separate things, but they also make up the Universe. So basically, we live in a triunity of triunities.

As to answer why there is a Triunity: How can someone love others if they have no one else to gain love for? As such, God is a Triunity made up entirely of love. He expressed His love to His creations by creating them in the first place.

Finally, proof in even the Old Testament of the Bible, specifically, Genesis, that there is a Triunity is that God refers to Himself, during the Creation, as "Us" and "Our". Also, in the Hebrew text, He is called "Elohim". If you have read about the Cherubim or Seraphim in the Bible, you will know that Cherubim is plural for Cherub, and Seraphim is plural for Seraph. So if God is referred to as Elohim, as opposed to the word "El" (mighty one) then this suggests that God is more than just one being. Also, both the Old Testament, and Jesus in the New Testament, say that absolutely no living human can see God the Father. But in the OT, people have seen God sitting on His throne. If no living human can see God [the Father], then it suggest they've seen God [the Son].



Nowhere in scripture is God called the Holy Spirit. Nowhere in scripture is the Spirit called God. Nowhere in scripture is Jesus called the Holy Spirit. The word trinity is nowhere in scripture. But now in the MIND of christianity, there is more power than the written word. If its in the mind of a christian, it does not matter if its not in the bible. The mind of a christian is more powerful than the written word. It superseeds Gods word. This is where the trinity came from.

[Ormly]

If I may seriously answer a question born of foolishness, I listen to no preacher, and no fabrication of anything you may think has influenced me. I trust nothing encased in flesh, and comming out of the mouth of men, yourself included.
Well, if we follow your lead and do the same thing why then don't you just shut up?

[avegen]

Nowhere in scripture is God called the Holy Spirit. Nowhere in scripture is the Spirit called God. Nowhere in scripture is Jesus called the Holy Spirit. The word trinity is nowhere in scripture. But now in the MIND of christianity, there is more power than the written word. If its in the mind of a christian, it does not matter if its not in the bible. The mind of a christian is more powerful than the written word. It superseeds Gods word. This is where the trinity came from.
Look in the Bible. No where are omniscience, omnipotence, or even omnipresence mentioned. Yet there are very many verses that make the immediate implication that God has these attributes. For instance, how can God know be all knowing of us, if He created each and everyone of us? God created the universe, so would it make sense He make it if He could not know what is going everywhere in it at every second or if He made it so even He was limited to His own creation?

Considering the "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Ghost", are you speaking of the English version of the Bible? If so, it doesn't matter what the English wording of the "Holy Ghost" or "Holy Spirit" is as long as it refers to what the Holy Spirit really is. After all, Jesus isn't Jesus' real name. It's Yeshua, which, if properly translated to Engliah, would really make His name "Joshua". And, actually, the "Holy Spirit" is used in the Bible (read John 1:32-33), but as I said, it depends on what version. The King James Version might not have it, but the American Standard does. Take Peter for example. His name is "Peter" in English. But if you read the Hebrew writings, his name is "Caiphas". Read Matthew 28:18 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," It is made plainly obvious throughout the Bible that Jesus is also God. So, if Jesus is made level with God, being that He is God, who else can be made equal to God, if not a part of God, that being the Holy Spirit, as shown in this verse? And the reason Jesus isn't called God [the Father] or Jesus isn't called the Holy Spirit is because they aren't the same persons. As I said, Jesus is shown obviously to be God, but not the same as God [the Father]. So if that is possible, what is wrong with their being a third personage to the "Godhead", as He is sometimes called.

But there are multiples references and implications that the Holy Spirit is a part of God, just as Jesus is a part of God. First, we know there is God. Second, after studying both the Old Testament and the New Testament, it is made clear that Jesus is also God (should hope I don't need to expand on that part). And after more studying of the Bible, it can also be discovered that there is a part of God that is the Holy Spirit (or whatever it is you want to called it). First, the terms "Holy Spirit" is used in reference to the personage sent by God [and Jesus] to dwell in Christians (as mentioned in Acts at the Pentecost). Then, later in 1 Corinthians, chaper 3, verse 16, there is a reference to the "Spirit of God that dwells in you". Well, we know that the Holy Spirit dwells in people. Now this is saying the Spirit of God dwells in people. So this shows that the "Holy Spirit" and the "Spirit of God" are one and the same. Just as the "Son of God" and the "Lamb of God" are the same.

[mickiel]

Well, if we follow your lead and do the same thing why then don't you just shut up?



It shall be as you wish, these are my last words to you.

[mickiel]

Look in the Bible. No where are omniscience, omnipotence, or even omnipresence mentioned. Yet there are very many verses that make the immediate implication that God has these attributes. For instance, how can God know be all knowing of us, if He created each and everyone of us? God created the universe, so would it make sense He make it if He could not know what is going everywhere in it at every second or if He made it so even He was limited to His own creation?

Considering the "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Ghost", are you speaking of the English version of the Bible? If so, it doesn't matter what the English wording of the "Holy Ghost" or "Holy Spirit" is as long as it refers to what the Holy Spirit really is. After all, Jesus isn't Jesus' real name. It's Yeshua, which, if properly translated to Engliah, would really make His name "Joshua". And, actually, the "Holy Spirit" is used in the Bible (read John 1:32-33), but as I said, it depends on what version. The King James Version might not have it, but the American Standard does. Take Peter for example. His name is "Peter" in English. But if you read the Hebrew writings, his name is "Caiphas". Read Matthew 28:18 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," It is made plainly obvious throughout the Bible that Jesus is also God. So, if Jesus is made level with God, being that He is God, who else can be made equal to God, if not a part of God, that being the Holy Spirit, as shown in this verse? And the reason Jesus isn't called God [the Father] or Jesus isn't called the Holy Spirit is because they aren't the same persons. As I said, Jesus is shown obviously to be God, but not the same as God [the Father]. So if that is possible, what is wrong with their being a third personage to the "Godhead", as He is sometimes called.

But there are multiples references and implications that the Holy Spirit is a part of God, just as Jesus is a part of God. First, we know there is God. Second, after studying both the Old Testament and the New Testament, it is made clear that Jesus is also God (should hope I don't need to expand on that part). And after more studying of the Bible, it can also be discovered that there is a part of God that is the Holy Spirit (or whatever it is you want to called it). First, the terms "Holy Spirit" is used in reference to the personage sent by God [and Jesus] to dwell in Christians (as mentioned in Acts at the Pentecost). Then, later in 1 Corinthians, chaper 3, verse 16, there is a reference to the "Spirit of God that dwells in you". Well, we know that the Holy Spirit dwells in people. Now this is saying the Spirit of God dwells in people. So this shows that the "Holy Spirit" and the "Spirit of God" are one and the same. Just as the "Son of God" and the "Lamb of God" are the same.




There are no scriptures that affirm Jesus and God being the same being. Jesus is Gods son, period. God is greater than Jesus, period. That higher position is affirmed by Christ himself. So what men say or think is meaningless. Jesus never taught or even thought of himself as Gods equal, confused men only think that way. Jesus ALWAYS submits himself to God the Father.That is enough evidence for me, but not for the confused mind.

[7thangel]

I can sure try huh? But first I would ask a favor of you. In your first response to my answer, would you please deal first with any portion of my response that you consider illogical. Unscriptural we can deal with after that...

I realize that logic does not always produce a perfect answer, still it is all that we have to work with (coupled with information) that has the slightest chance of producing the reality that we seek.

It is folly to try and formulate doctrine based on illogical and unreasonable conclusions. We may not always find truth using logic, but we will never find truth using illogic and unreasonableness...

Now to answer your question with scripture as the foundation, and logic and reasonableness as the tools that we utilize in seeking truth...

You ask; “How Jesus, while on earth...was not half God and half man...
but FULLY GOD and FULLY MAN“?

Being that Christ used earthly realities to shed light on heavenly realities in his parables, I shall attempt the same. Parables was one of Christ’s most effective teaching tools…

Your answer, in parable form:
A friend of mine is a party clown, she dresses up in a clowns garments (the incarnation) and performs for children’s birthdays. Before she putt’s on the clowns garments (prior to the incarnation Christ is The Word) she is Tonya. After she putt’s on the clowns garments, she is bozo, the clown. After the incarnation, Christ was known as Jesus. Before, he is The Word. When Tonya puts on her clown garments, she remains fully Tonya, but now because she meets all the criteria for being a clown, she is now fully a clown. (Remember, at this point I need only remain faithful to logic.)

By putting on a clowns garments and becoming fully a clown, Tonya does not cease being Tonya. Although she looks like a clown, act's like a clown, and meets all the personal requirements for being a clown, logic will tell us that she is a clown, and in reality (that reality) she really is a clown. She fully meets all the definitions of a clown.

Christ clothed himself within the reality that is human, by clothing himself in humanity, meeting all the criteria for being human, he essentially became a human in all respects. (He walked, he talked, he loved, he hated, he hungered, he thirsted, he worked, he rested, he laughed, and he cried. (Bible does not say so, but I think he even took baths… A small giggle) Still he never ceased to be God. But while in the flesh in order to be human, he had to be subject to the same thing that humans are subject to. And he had to deal with those things with tools that are indigenous to humans. He had to overcome obstacles with only devices that are available to humans.

Christ did not trade his deity in on humanity, his deity took on humanity. He set aside that position (position, not essence) of deity that he had as The Word, and added the position of a human being with all of it's lamentations.

In John 17 he prays to the father to return him to that position of glory that he had as The Word with the Father before the world was..... The word did not change in essence, his position changed for the work of the cross... (Show me illogic only, we can discuss scripture later.)
Not a good parable, Chappie. You are omitting genuine descriptions that differs God unto men- invisible, spirit, omnipresence. Tonya and the clown is too far inappropriate to compare unto God making himself man.

The essence of God is spirit. The essense of God is an immaterial essense. God "is" Spirit. Notice, the bible does not in saying who God is, that he is "A" spirit. God is spirit...

Three persons, the personage of the Father is Spirit, the personage of the son is Spirit, and the personage of the Holy Spirit is Spirit. Three persons, one Spirit.

Three persons, one spirit, one God. God is essentially Spirit.

The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, they are three persons, each meet all the criteria indigenous to being a person, but as Spirit, they are one Spirit. Three persons, one Spirit. One Spirit, one God. God is not a person, God is Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is a spirit within one Spirit? How come the Holy Spirit is the only spirit among the three?

Men are not spirit. Men have a spirit. Men are {1) body, {2) soul, and {3} spirit. One body, one soul, and one spirit constitutes one person. Father (1) Son, (2) Holy Spirit (3) One Spirit. One God. Three persons, one Spirit, one God.

Now, please show me where I deviated from what is logical and what is reasonable... Show me an unreasonable and illogical sequence of events. Bottom line, we do not have to be truthful to be logical, but if we are illogical, even if we stumble upon truth, we can not logically explain how we got there....
What is the difference between man's spirit, the Holy Spirit, and the trinity as one Spirit?

Thank you for this opportunity to discuss gainfully. I gave it my best, that is all that I present it to you as.....
Thank you too! And I will try my best to understand......

[Chappie]

Not a good parable, Chappie. You are omitting genuine descriptions that differs God unto men- invisible, spirit, omnipresence. Tonya and the clown is too far inappropriate to compare unto God making himself man.......

A parable need only be an understandable similie. Nothing inappropriate or disrespectful to God in it. It need not be a detail to detail illustration to portray its intended point...

I have a book entitled "All the parables in the bible". Using them as a guideline, Tonya and the clown are acceptable...