Salvation in Christ: Can it be lost? [Archive]

GrayPilgrim

February 1st 2003, 01:07 AM

I wonder if this difference comes from the different conceptions of salvation in the Catholic Church and the Protestant, or is it just another form of something akin to Arminianism? Cadet, I'd be interested to hear your response.

My two cents on the question that has Freak brought up. I will be using the ESV, unless stated in my post.

I will start with one of my favorite passages in all of Scripture.

Romans 8:28-39 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died- more than that, who was raised- who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We could spend a life time in these 12 verses and not plumb their depths. But for the current discussion I will first address what I think is the different perspectival (sp?) view of OSAS that I have than say Jaltus, (I’m using him b/c we are friends and have discussed this many times and have a general grasp of each other’s positions). When I look at this issue I see the end result, so that if someone makes a profession and then falls away, I would say that it is only he who abides to the end that was saved in the beginning. Jaltus would say that I have completely ignored the warning passages, and that one who falls away was saved at that point but is now apostate and unable to come back (that is one thing I do respect for, Jaltus’ view of Hebrews 6 is consistent and believes that if one falls away then he cannot come back) so in the end we would agree that this person when he stands before the Judgment seat of Christ will be found to be clothed in his own self-righteousness and not in the righteousness of Christ. IMHO in both views we state a difference between the Christian who genuinely struggles with sin, but like David has a contrite spirit and the person who apostasizes (sp?). The difference? I would say that this shows by this person’s fruit that he was never saved, Jaltus would say that he might have been saved but fell away and thus is no longer saved. It may seem a quibble, but it shows that we are viewing salvation differently. I see it, in this instance, holistically, whereas Jaltus is looking at experientially.

I would recommend John Flavel’s take on verse 32 “He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?” If God did not spare His Son how will he not preserve (I prefer preservation by God over against perseverance of the Saints) those for whom he died. [I could get in to particular redemption here, but that would just open up a can of worms that we wont be able to close in a thousand threads.] But to me the most compelling reason as seen in these verses is:

For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing means nada, nil nothing! So for that reason I think God will continue the work he began until the Day of Christ Jesus! [What about sin and wickedness? “By their fruit you shall know my disciples” (GP Revised Slandered Version)]

Hebrews 13:5-6 Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." So we can confidently say, "The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?"

We see that this passage is assurance and comfort to the suffering who are in want. Verse 5 is one of my favorite verses. It states that God will never leave or forsake you. Fine you say, but what does that have to do with one losing their salvation? Look at verse 6b, “what can man do to me?” The obvious answer to this rhetorical question is, Nada! Well as we define “man” does that include me? Well I am male, but that does not mean that a female could harm me, so while this one is open to debate, it holds more water IMHO than Jaltus’ rebuttal to I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." In personal conversation Jaltus has said that “Yeah, well we can jump out, which is in line with cadet’s post. I for one find it unconvincing, as this verse says that man, which would include myself, could cause to cease to be the Help and Refuge of the redeemed.

GrayPilgrim

February 1st 2003, 01:09 AM

Then they are not saved. Only saved people are saved. If there is any possible chance that they will not be saved, then they are not saved.

Unsaved people can become saved, but saved people cannot become unsaved. It is against all logic and reason to suggest otherwise.

Not to mention Scripture, IMHO!

Sozo

February 1st 2003, 01:25 AM

GrayPilgrim:
Not to mention Scripture, IMHO!

:thumb: Scripture is obvious for those who understand it. But, for those who lean on their own understanding, they cannot prove that "saved" means anything less than what the term implies.

smilax

February 1st 2003, 01:58 AM

We've gone this route already.

1. Those who persevere will be saved.
2. Those who are saved will persevere.

Keep in mind that "saved" and "preserved" are the same word.

And I agree that those who do not persevere were not really saved.

Sozo

February 1st 2003, 02:05 AM

smilax:
We've gone this route already.

1. Those who persevere will be saved.
2. Those who are saved will persevere.

Keep in mind that "saved" and "preserved" are the same word.

And I agree that those who do not persevere were not really saved.

Thank you!

I just wanted to bring home the point to those who call themselves saved, and then teach that it can be forfeited or lost, that they are void of logic and reason.

PRAISE

February 1st 2003, 02:58 AM

If anyone has any doubts about losing their salvation, I sincerly ask them to go to TOL's home page & check out the article entitled "MY TESTIMONY". You can find this at:
www.theologyonline.com I am known as bibliophile1954 over there! Praise God that you never will lose your salvation-I am living proof that you can always come back home! Please check it out-God has moved several people by it, & I believe He can do the same for anyone else as well!!! ALL GLORY TO GOD & HIM ALONE! Thank-you-Jesus!

Praising Him for one major miracle in bringing me back!
PRAISE:thumb:

Freak

February 1st 2003, 11:12 AM

Cadet--

I believe my original post speaks for itself (which btw you didn't address).

:argh:

smilax

February 1st 2003, 11:17 AM

spl_cadet:
1 Corinthians 6:8-10 (KJV)
Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Christians can clearly be unrighteous, given verse eight.Wrong, wrong, wrong. Context, context, context!

I Corinthians vi, 11: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Ergo, verse eight does not refer to Christians, at least not presently. But then again, considering you are a Catholic, do you even buy into synthetic justification?
I rather disagree with the statement of yours. We willingly came to Christ, we can willingly leave. God forces no one to love Him, if we wish to repudiate Him, He has no choice but to let us do so.God has no choice? Really?
Also, how shall we know if we are saved: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9)I John v, 13: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

spl_cadet

February 2nd 2003, 08:03 PM

Ok, sorry in advance if I don't get to some posts or arguments. Firstly I'm not used to arguing with large amounts of Biblical verses (I'm more logic oriented in my thinking and apologetics) and I've got to leave for Mass in about an hour.

Freak
I wonder if this difference comes from the different conceptions of salvation in the Catholic Church and the Protestant, or is it just another form of something akin to Arminianism?

In my experience debating Protestantism vs Catholicism over at CARM (www.carm.org), I've come to the conclusion that the only real differences is in how we perceive the order in which works and faith come. With Catholics we believe that you turn to Christ and as a part of your repentance and turning towards him you perform good works (see James 2 for the meaning of that) which makes your faith a True Faith™. Protestants on the other hand hold that when you turn to Christ you have a True Faith™ simply from that and that the good works are a sign of that. In my opinion it's more of a philosophical debate.

Not being familiar with Arminianism I really can't say anything about that.

Jaltus would say that I have completely ignored the warning passages, and that one who falls away was saved at that point but is now apostate and unable to come back (that is one thing I do respect for, Jaltus’ view of Hebrews 6 is consistent and believes that if one falls away then he cannot come back)

Well I'd have to disagree with him there, as I was at one point an apostate and then came back.

For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing means nada, nil nothing! So for that reason I think God will continue the work he began until the Day of Christ Jesus! [What about sin and wickedness? “By their fruit you shall know my disciples” (GP Revised Slandered Version)

I agree, nothing can seperate us from God's love. God is always loving us and always calling us to Him. But I don't believe that it applies to OSAS, because God loves everyone and not just the Christians.

We see that this passage is assurance and comfort to the suffering who are in want. Verse 5 is one of my favorite verses. It states that God will never leave or forsake you. Fine you say, but what does that have to do with one losing their salvation? Look at verse 6b, “what can man do to me?” The obvious answer to this rhetorical question is, Nada! Well as we define “man” does that include me?

I have to disagree. Again, God always loves us and will never leave or forsake us, but we can leave Him rather easily. As for 6b, I believe that it refers to man as an outside force, (ie how could other people seperate me from God). I don't think it refers to oneself, it wouldn't fit gramattically (English-wise that is, I don't happen to know Greek).

Sozo

I just wanted to bring home the point to those who call themselves saved, and then teach that it can be forfeited or lost, that they are void of logic and reason.

Correct, that is why we say that "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15)." (Kudos to Catholic Answers for that btw).

Smilax

I Corinthians vi, 11: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

However, verses seven and eight clearly refer to the fact that the Christians living in Corinth are defrauding one another, prompting St. Paul to write that letter. Also, the argument that you makes seems to be that a true Christian cannot sin at all, which is manifestly untrue.

Ergo, verse eight does not refer to Christians, at least not presently. But then again, considering you are a Catholic, do you even buy into synthetic justification?

Would you mind explaining that, as I've never really learned just what everyone means by justification (I probably know the concept but haven't applied the concept to the word).

God has no choice? Really?

God cannot force us to love Him, that would not be love at all. It makes as much sense as saying that you forced your wife to love you.

I John v, 13: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

That does not however mean that by looking at our hearts we can know that, no matter what we do, we will be saved 50 years hence.

John 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Sozo

February 2nd 2003, 08:16 PM

spl_cadet:
I was at one point an apostate and then came back.

That would be a hard thing to prove.

spl_cadet

February 3rd 2003, 10:56 AM

Sozo:
That would be a hard thing to prove.

Well, I suppose it would be rather hard to prove my experiences, but I did indeed abandon the Christian faith at one point, last February. I came back around the beginning of April (I realized I was being an idiot).

GrayPilgrim

February 3rd 2003, 01:28 PM

spl_cadet:
I agree, nothing can seperate us from God's love. God is always loving us and always calling us to Him. But I don't believe that it applies to OSAS, because God loves everyone and not just the Christians.

I concur that there is a love of God towards all of his creation. But I would say that what is discussed in Romans 8 is the particularized love of God for Christians. As he has just discussed the godlen chain of redemption-->glorification that seems to be what is in question (esp. if you look at 9-12 and the questions of Paul's detractor).

I'm more logic oriented in my thinking and apologetics It takes both kinds, cause I as you could probably tell I'm more biblically oriented. It's great to have your input here!

smilax

February 3rd 2003, 08:50 PM

spl_cadet:
With Catholics we believe that you turn to Christ and as a part of your repentance and turning towards him you perform good works (see James 2 for the meaning of that) which makes your faith a True Faith™. Protestants on the other hand hold that when you turn to Christ you have a True Faith™ simply from that and that the good works are a sign of that. In my opinion it's more of a philosophical debate.No, it is a semantics debate. I view "faith" as faithfulness, or more practically, loyalty, not simply as a moment of belief. (If you want to know why, go ahead and ask.) We see works as a result of salvation, not as a prerequisite for it. Consequently, apostasy is the opposite of faith, and it cannot be said that such people had salvation to begin with.

Further, I deny that James is referring to either God's perspective or salvation; rather, it has to do with works before men and vindication proving faith. But anyway...
I agree, nothing can seperate us from God's love. God is always loving us and always calling us to Him. But I don't believe that it applies to OSAS, because God loves everyone and not just the Christians.The difference between perseverance of the saints and eternal security is that the former (Calvinist view) contends that perseverance is necessary, (as both a must and a will; there is no assurance for those who do not persevere.) Now the next question: does God love everyone equally?
Correct, that is why we say that "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15)." (Kudos to Catholic Answers for that btw).I'm glad you pointed out the already/not yet aspect to salvation. Now... is it possible to have only the first part? Can someone "be saved" who "will not be saved"? As I view salvation as "preservation," (not momentary escape,) I would say it makes no sense.
However, verses seven and eight clearly refer to the fact that the Christians living in Corinth are defrauding one another, prompting St. Paul to write that letter.This does not at all mean that verse nine refers to them. Indeed, it fits more as a parenthetical statement exhorting them on to holy living.
Also, the argument that you makes seems to be that a true Christian cannot sin at all, which is manifestly untrue.Positionally, we can't. Our sins are blotted out.
Would you mind explaining that, as I've never really learned just what everyone means by justification (I probably know the concept but haven't applied the concept to the word).Here is one of the major disagreements between Catholics and Protestants. The Catholics say that justification is analytic, meaning it is tautological: you are justified (declared righteous) because you are already just. The Protestants, on the other hand, say it is synthetic, and thus something that was not already there: you are just because you are justified.
God cannot force us to love Him, that would not be love at all. It makes as much sense as saying that you forced your wife to love you.This seems to put the final say in man's hands, exalting human freedom over divine sovereignty. John vi, 39 ensures that the Son will lose nothing that the Father gave Him.
That does not however mean that by looking at our hearts we can know that, no matter what we do, we will be saved 50 years hence.I agree that there is a very real need to test yourself, (I Corinthians ix, 27, II Corinthians xiii, 5, Philippians ii, 12,) but at the same time, there is assurance for those that persevere. And I insist that once God thinks you are saved, you are guaranteed it forever.
John 6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."Sittin' in a garage don't make you no car, and sittin' in a church don't make you no Christian."

GrayPilgrim

February 3rd 2003, 11:44 PM

smilax:
Here is one of the major disagreements between Catholics and Protestants. The Catholics say that justification is analytic, meaning it is tautological: you are justified (declared righteous) because you are already just. The Protestants, on the other hand, say it is synthetic, and thus something that was not already there: you are just because you are justified.

Just a quick question of clarification. A tautology would be e a=b because a=b correct?:huh: [I always forget the exact meaning.]

spl_cadet

Let me try to not only show the difference but posit a basic reformed protestant understanding of justification (btw reformed in protestant lingo means followin the Augustinian-Calvinistic tradition, but has about as much meaning any more as gentleman, which IMHO is not a hill of beans).

Based on the finished work of Christ, God forensically applies Christ's righteousness to the believer, and thus declares him righteous. This declaration is independent of the believer’s merit. According to Romans 5, all humanity is placed under two different leaders, they are either in Adam or in Christ. Those who are in Adam have Adam’s sin imputed to them as well as the charge of their individual sins levied against them. However, when we are transferred from being in Adam by the forensic act of justification, then we have Christ’s righteousness imputed to us, as well as remission of all sins.

In classical protestant understanding, sanctification, which follows from the moment of justification onwards, is synthetic. Sanctification is the synthetic process in which the justified person is slowly refined and purified so that their character will more represent their position before God. Generally, it is believed that this process is not completed in this life. However, there have been some who hold that after justification a Christian either will not sin (Sozo on this forum would represent this view) or that a justified person can have a subsequent experience after which they will be free from all sin (John Wesley, the 18th Century evangelist held this view).

-----------------------------------------
As an aside, historically, the Book of Romans has long been seen among Protestants as the heart of the Gospel. In Joseph(?) Fitzmeyer’s commentary on Romans, in the Anchor Bible Series, his take on and understanding is very close to classical Protestantism, though he is RC. I would recommend either Cranfield’s (International Critical Commentary) or Schreiner’s (Baker Exegetical Commentary Series) commentary on the book of Romans (Cranfield written in the 70’s though would lack information on the newer research especially concerning Pauline research.

AVmetro

February 4th 2003, 01:52 AM

"Sittin' in a garage don't make you no car, and sittin' in a church don't make you no Christian."

There's a few people I know who need to realize this. At least *just* sitting in church.

Shayla

February 4th 2003, 02:01 AM

Hmmm... I'm considering to reply or not to reply to what has already been said. In essence, I'm replying, but I'm not addressing anything. I'm OSAS, so maybe i shouldn't. You guys have missed the point.

smilax

February 4th 2003, 09:38 PM

GrayPilgrim:
Just a quick question of clarification. A tautology would be e a=b because a=b correct?:huh:Close. It would be a statement that is necessarily true.

- "Either you are right, or you are wrong."
- "Fish are fishy."
- "It is rainy because it is raining."

So when forensic justification is said to be tautological by the Catholics, that means that "justification" in itself isn't really anything, because the people who are justified were already just.
that a justified person can have a subsequent experience after which they will be free from all sin (John Wesley, the 18th Century evangelist held this view).Did he actually believe that it was possible to be completely free from sin? I thought that was simply an aberrancy of Finney.
[i]Shayla:
You guys have missed the point.No way! Biblical tension is a great place to go to if you want to grow. Sovereignty/responsibility, already/not yet, position/practice, assurance/perseverance...

GrayPilgrim

February 4th 2003, 09:48 PM

smilax:
Did he actually believe that it was possible to be completely free from sin? I thought that was simply an aberrancy of Finney.

Wesley's description of it was very muddled and contradicotry, so where he stood on it exactly is a hard thing to ascertain. Finney and his group leading to the Holiness Movements (e.g. Nazarene's) are legitmately following in Wesley's wake and do not deviate from his as much is often portrayed by other Wesleyans. At least that is the picture I have taken from my readings (I took a course of Methodist polity last year where I researched this topic to some extent.)

GP

spl_cadet

February 5th 2003, 11:31 AM

Sorry for not getting back to you guys, I've been a bit apathetic about things lately. Hopefully I'll get to this later today.

GrayPilgrim

February 5th 2003, 07:14 PM

It is your Birthday after all! :yipee: :yipee: :yipee:

Dee Dee Warren

February 6th 2003, 07:09 AM

I wish someone who make and someone would accept a challenge on this for the Ring. It is a great subject.

GrayPilgrim

February 6th 2003, 09:43 PM

This is one subject I swore off debating with Jaltus, it tends to be a little tuff on our friendship, we just leave it at agree to disagree and tease each other about it.

spl_cadet

February 7th 2003, 11:53 AM

Dee Dee Warren:
I wish someone who make and someone would accept a challenge on this for the Ring. It is a great subject.

Well, I don't think I'm good enough for a formal debate on the subject. Maybe if Dave Armstrong or Karl Keating you could get a challenge over there.

Smilax
No, it is a semantics debate. I view "faith" as faithfulness, or more practically, loyalty, not simply as a moment of belief. (If you want to know why, go ahead and ask.)

Well, I viewed it as philosophical in the genre of "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

Further, I deny that James is referring to either God's perspective or salvation; rather, it has to do with works before men and vindication proving faith. But anyway...

Well actually I was pointing to that as a list of that which are considered good works.

Now the next question: does God love everyone equally?

I could be wrong but I would say yes. He desires everyone to recieve salvation.

Can someone "be saved" who "will not be saved"?

Yes, if they should fall away from the faith or go and willingly violate the 10 Commandments for example.

As I view salvation as "preservation," (not momentary escape,) I would say it makes no sense.

Well, that can only apply if God is forcibly preserving you. If you don't want anything to do with Him anymore, He'll let you go imho.

This does not at all mean that verse nine refers to them. Indeed, it fits more as a parenthetical statement exhorting them on to holy living.

I disagree. Why write the letter otherwise? Why point out that the unjust do x, y, and z and also point out that they are defrauding each other, which is itself unjust.

Positionally, we can't. Our sins are blotted out.

Our sins might be forgiven, but that doesn't mean that we can't still sin. To do so would violate 1 John 1:9-10 imho.

This seems to put the final say in man's hands, exalting human freedom over divine sovereignty.

Yep. 2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we shall deny him, he also will deny us: (ASV)

It is God's will "that all shall shall come to repentance," (2 Peter 3:9) but obviously not everyone is going to do that. That's because it, like John 6:39, when in reference to man, is a part of His moral will, not His sovereign will.

I agree that there is a very real need to test yourself, (I Corinthians ix, 27, II Corinthians xiii, 5, Philippians ii, 12,) but at the same time, there is assurance for those that persevere.

Of course. That reminds me of a nice quote I've got.
One day when a certain man who wavered often and anxiously between hope and fear was struck with sadness, he knelt in humble prayer before tha altar of a church. While meditating on these things, he said: "Oh if I but knew whether I should persevere to the end!" Instantly he heard within the divine answer: "If you knew this, what would you do? Do nowwhat you would do then and you will be quite secure." The Imitation of Christ, Book One, Chapter 25.

As long as you persist in living the Christian life, and repent of the sins you commit, you shall have an assurance of salvation. Where we differ is that while I believe in the "Yes I know I'm going to Heaven should I die now" I don't believe in the "Yes I know that 50 years down the line I'll be going to Heaven."

And I insist that once God thinks you are saved, you are guaranteed it forever.

Agreed. But we hold it to Him thinking that at the Judgement after you've died, not here in our temporary mortal lives.

And just because I like the bananas: :yipee: :yipee: :yipee: :yipee: :yipee: :yipee: :yipee:

GrayPilgrim

February 7th 2003, 12:31 PM

spl_cadet,

I know that it used to be a sin of presumption to claim to have assurance of salvation in the Catholic Church. Is that still a doctrine of the RCC?

smilax

February 7th 2003, 01:34 PM

spl_cadet:
I could be wrong but I would say yes. He desires everyone to recieve salvation.Care to explain Romans ix, 13?
Yes, if they should fall away from the faith or go and willingly violate the 10 Commandments for example.Philosophically, that makes no sense. How do you define salvation in a way that it can be lost?
Well, that can only apply if God is forcibly preserving you. If you don't want anything to do with Him anymore, He'll let you go imho.Forcibly? Remember that our (the Reformed) view is that there is a coincidence: God preserves, and we persevere.
I disagree. Why write the letter otherwise? Why point out that the unjust do x, y, and z and also point out that they are defrauding each other, which is itself unjust.Exhortation, of course. No one said that once you're saved, you're done.
Our sins might be forgiven, but that doesn't mean that we can't still sin. To do so would violate 1 John 1:9-10 imho.It's not that we don't sin, but that we don't sin in God's eyes. To be forgiven means He no longer remembers those sins. We Protestants view repentance as a one-shot deal, too, although there will be continual repentance thereafter, although it is the singular, initial act that leads to justification. This, of course, differs vastly with the concept of penance.
Yep. 2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we shall deny him, he also will deny us: (ASV)Again, the verse does not say human freedom goes over divine sovereignty. It simply describes consequences.
It is God's will "that all shall shall come to repentance," (2 Peter 3:9) but obviously not everyone is going to do that. That's because it, like John 6:39, when in reference to man, is a part of His moral will, not His sovereign will.I do not believe John vi, 39 is part of the moral will, but rather the sovereign. This is one of the main features of Reformed soteriology.
Where we differ is that while I believe in the "Yes I know I'm going to Heaven should I die now" I don't believe in the "Yes I know that 50 years down the line I'll be going to Heaven."Well, what kind of faith is that that doesn't last fifty years? Not of eternal value, I'd say.
Agreed. But we hold it to Him thinking that at the Judgement after you've died, not here in our temporary mortal lives.So if someone is "saved," but will not be saved, (and hence at the moment of "salvation" was not saved in God's eyes,) then in what sense does this person have salvation? Seems rather illusory to me.

spl_cadet

February 7th 2003, 03:58 PM

I only have a couple minutes at the moment so I'll get to Smilax's post later on in the day hopefully.

GrayPilgrim:
spl_cadet,

I know that it used to be a sin of presumption to claim to have assurance of salvation in the Catholic Church. Is that still a doctrine of the RCC?

To claim that down the line you have assurance, yes. To state that at this moment you have an assurance isn't, because the only thing that prevents a Christian from going to Heaven is being in a state of mortal sin, which you can know yourself.

spl_cadet

February 7th 2003, 11:15 PM

Smilax
Care to explain Romans ix, 13?

Ok, my bad, he was love less. (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans9.htm#foot5)

Philosophically, that makes no sense. How do you define salvation in a way that it can be lost?

By rejection of it. Imagine for example that someone offered you help on building something, help you desperately needed. You are free at anytime to say, before the job is done, "I don't need your help anymore."

Forcibly? Remember that our (the Reformed) view is that there is a coincidence: God preserves, and we persevere.

And in our view there isn't.

And something tells me that this is a worldview matter which means it isn't going to be resolved anytime soon.

Exhortation, of course. No one said that once you're saved, you're done.

Really? That's only applicable if you can do something to affect your salvation.

This, of course, differs vastly with the concept of penance.

Not at all. Penance is really just a method of showing we really were sorry. It's not a punishment thing. For example, after my second confession (which was my first in eight years or so), I confessed to apostasy, heresy, lust, and a host of other really nasty sins. My penance was to pray in thanksgiving about God's mercy.

Again, the verse does not say human freedom goes over divine sovereignty. It simply describes consequences.

True, but cross-reference it with 2 Peter 3:9. If God wants all to come to Him, yet we can deny Him, then it would logically follow that human will can trump divine sovereignity when that is expressed as a part of His moral will.

Well, what kind of faith is that that doesn't last fifty years? Not of eternal value, I'd say.

The kind of faith that is poorly informed. If I hadn't had the most minimal amount of apologetics training that I did have and the stubborness to find answers for the questions, I probably wouldn't be Christian right now. Being raised Christian is both a blessing and a curse. Blessing because I'd probably be too stubborn to become Christian, or never come across the one thing that would make me Christian (the Resurrection evidence) and a curse because our faiths tend to be less informed, and we never have that conversion experience.

So if someone is "saved," but will not be saved, (and hence at the moment of "salvation" was not saved in God's eyes,) then in what sense does this person have salvation?

They are saved until they reject their salvation.

smilax

February 7th 2003, 11:32 PM

spl_cadet:
Ok, my bad, he was love less. (http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans9.htm#foot5)Right. Therefore, God's love is not the same for everyone. But I would say that this hate is more than just a lack of love, given the existence of hell. God's "wrath" is not God's "less love."
By rejection of it. Imagine for example that someone offered you help on building something, help you desperately needed. You are free at anytime to say, before the job is done, "I don't need your help anymore."Do you think this analogy is possible, given the concept of being born again?
And in our view there isn't.I John ii, 19.
And something tells me that this is a worldview matter which means it isn't going to be resolved anytime soon.You got that right.
Really? That's only applicable if you can do something to affect your salvation.Affect? "Work out," more like.
Not at all. Penance is really just a method of showing we really were sorry. It's not a punishment thing. For example, after my second confession (which was my first in eight years or so), I confessed to apostasy, heresy, lust, and a host of other really nasty sins. My penance was to pray in thanksgiving about God's mercy.Hmm... So is one-shot repentance sufficient for justification?
True, but cross-reference it with 2 Peter 3:9. If God wants all to come to Him, yet we can deny Him, then it would logically follow that human will can trump divine sovereignity when that is expressed as a part of His moral will.Hey, hey, no false equivocation here!

Sovereign will: never trumped.
Moral will: can be trumped.

Divine "sovereignty" can never be trumped. It makes no sense to speak of "sovereignty... as part of His moral will." The sovereign will is completely different.
The kind of faith that is poorly informed.Hmm, that's not good. The eleventh chapter of Hebrews gives a list of people who were well-informed, (contra the common misinterpretation of faith as "blind," which pervades Western thinking.)
If I hadn't had the most minimal amount of apologetics training that I did have and the stubborness to find answers for the questions, I probably wouldn't be Christian right now.All of God's grace, no?
Being raised Christian is both a blessing and a curse.My parents are still non-Christians.
Blessing because I'd probably be too stubborn to become Christian, or never come across the one thing that would make me Christian (the Resurrection evidence) and a curse because our faiths tend to be less informed, and we never have that conversion experience.Hmm, maybe. I've noticed that "spoon-fed" Christians tend to take things for granted, which is very saddening to see.
They are saved until they reject their salvation.You'd have to be pretty insane to do that.

spl_cadet

February 8th 2003, 12:04 AM

Stop replying so quickly!:bawl:

I'll get to your argument tomorrow hopefully. Right now I'm an emotional mess and it's getting a bit late anyway.

GrayPilgrim

February 8th 2003, 12:51 AM

Ok, my bad, he was love less.

The passage, in context, is referring to election and reprobation. In this passage Paul is stating that when God elected Israel to receive the promise, that he was turning his back on Esau and htus cutting him off from the covenant.

smilax

February 8th 2003, 03:17 AM

spl_cadet:
Stop replying so quickly!:bawl:You could always give up and accept Reformed theology, you know.
I'll get to your argument tomorrow hopefully. Right now I'm an emotional mess and it's getting a bit late anyway.Ah. Will be praying for you.

spl_cadet

February 8th 2003, 06:12 PM

smilax:
You could always give up and accept Reformed theology, you know.

Never! The Church forever!

Ah. Will be praying for you.

I'm fine now, I just went into a depressive funk over some stuff. I tend to do that about monthly.

How come we can't post images hosted on other sites btw?

JCA

February 13th 2003, 11:47 AM

I've read all through this, and through all the other discussions about it on many different boards.. I don't think we will know the answer for this for sure, until Judgment day.

Of course I already know some will say "Well I know now", and I say that's fine.

Personally, I don't like to believe that I am saved, even if I know I apparently meet the requirements.. Why? Because if I get complacent, if I become "Lukewarm" then although I might be saved, I still might not do as Christ commanded to my full ability.

In other words.. my "hope" that I am saved keeps me persevering in ways I see others not even bothering.. and all becasue they feel they are aunable to sin, and therefore don't have to worry. I believe at the moment of ReBirth, you are cleansed completely, and given the 'tools' that you will need, and the armor, so that you can then attempt to live a life like Christ, but until the body falls way, one cannot be fully righteous.

As I said, I am not 100% sure, so prefer to be on the 'safe side'. I already had this big discussion with Sheepdog about it, so I'm not really going to get into all the verses again etc., as I say, it wasn't solved then, it won't be solved now.

Here is a thought though, some of the reasons I continue to believe as I do, even in the light of all that is said here:

Is lying a sin? When does a sinful lie turn into a 'righteous' act?

If a "saved" Christian lies, is it a lie?

Does that saved Christian need to repent, and if so, why?

What exactly is a lie when you are a 'saved' Christian?

Before you even attempt to answer these questions (if you where going to bother), think about this... just about each one of you in this thread, at one time or another, have called others "Unsaved", or "NON-Christian", or have said that someone else is going to hell..

How do YOU know that? And if you are wrong, have you lied? If so, what is the "Saved" Christians punishment for such a lie?

After all, as has been said, even in this thread, no one knows the mind of God, no one knows if someone is "chosen" or "predestined" to become saved at a later point.. so calling ANYONE unsaved until they are dead is actually UN-Righteous.

Plus the myriad of other small lies that get told by people each day about other people that they don't know.

And as far as I know, no one with sin can enter the Kingdom of God, and lying is a sin of the soul, not the flesh - which you will drop.

Plus, I find that thinking that God manipulates our free will quite repugnant. WE choose to come to God, just as He chooses to give us the Grace to do so. At no time will God force you to come to Him.. He will point things out to you, He will give you signs that lead to Him.. but YOU have to follow them.. you don't, and just like being in a maze, you will end up in a dead end. Literally.

There are too many warnings being ignored to say that one is forever righteous once reborn. Especially, when even people such as Moses and all the prophets before hand where not righteous.. no, not one of them. Are there Christians who are above these people now?

Sorry if this sounds rough.. I need my morning coffee :)

And it's just MHO.

Love and Peace

JCA

GrayPilgrim

February 13th 2003, 01:27 PM

JCA,

Just a quick reply. I think that your stance on perserverance and vigillance is well stated. While I do believe in God's preservation of the saints, I would say that hte warnign passages are genuine, that it is possible for a person to be deluded into believeing that they are redeemed, when in fact they are still dead in their sins. All tha tto say that we are to examine our hearts, and I beleive it is healthy to engage in what the puritans called "self-suspicion". This self-suspicion is not navel gazing, rather it is a constant reliance upon the Holy Spirit to reveal the inner workings and deceitfullness of the heart.

GP

JCA

February 13th 2003, 01:54 PM

Thank you GrayPilgrim. :)

I think you hit the nail on the head, at least in my case, with this "Self Suspicion" angle.

I know how easy it is for Man to deceive not only himself, but others as well, so I live in hope, and remain vigilant that I am following Christs Commands to the best of my ability.

Love and Peace

JCA

Jaltus

February 13th 2003, 04:31 PM

Hey, hey, no false equivocation here!

Sovereign will: never trumped.
Moral will: can be trumped.

Divine "sovereignty" can never be trumped. It makes no sense to speak of "sovereignty... as part of His moral will." The sovereign will is completely different. Total balderdash! There is no such thing as this distinction, it is a nonbibilical way to try to repudiate what the Bible clearly says. It is just a rationalization of equivocation.

Where in scripture does God declare He has two wills? NOWHERE! It is just a concept foreign to the Bible. Sorry, but this is one thing that really hacks me off, Calvinists claiming to be much more biblical than Arminians and then pulling this rabbit out of their hat instead of taking it from the Bible. Sorry, don't buy it at all.

The biggest problem with it is that Smilax's argument hinges on this. Defeat this point and it all crumbles, which is why I think his case does not work.

spl_cadet

February 13th 2003, 07:08 PM

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to abandon this debate, at least for now. I simply don't have the time at the moment to keep participating in it.

smilax

February 13th 2003, 07:19 PM

Jaltus:
Where in scripture does God declare He has two wills?Perhaps the same place where He declares He only has one.

Seriously, though, given passages like II Peter iii, 9, would you say that the will of God is strictly preceptive in nature? (As in... the law of gravity, and, "Thou shalt not kill.")
The biggest problem with it is that Smilax's argument hinges on this. Defeat this point and it all crumbles, which is why I think his case does not work.Psst... The Catholic believes in something similar.

Jaltus

February 13th 2003, 07:24 PM

Seriously, though, given passages like II Peter iii, 9, would you say that the will of God is strictly preceptive in nature? I'm an Arminian, I think God's will can be overcome.

Luke 7:30, after all.

joelkaki

February 22nd 2003, 07:25 PM

I find that truly sad. If God's will can be overcome, then He isn't God.

Joel

Freak

February 23rd 2003, 02:54 PM

02-22-2003 @ 11:25 PM
joelkaki:

I find that truly sad. If God's will can be overcome, then He isn't God.

Joel

Romans 8:30 tells me there is eternal security.

Arminian

February 24th 2003, 04:49 AM

Romans 8:30 tells me there is eternal security.

No it tells you about the Israel of God, of which you are a memeber, conditionally.

Freak

February 24th 2003, 10:32 AM

02-24-2003 @ 08:49 AM
Arminian:

No it tells you about the Israel of God, of which you are a memeber, conditionally.

I'm sort of embarrassed for you. That interpretation of yours is quite bizarre.

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

The apostle Paul tells us "those he justified, he also glorified."

If you have been justified God promises to glorify you. This is a eternal promise for those placed their faith in Christ. Eternal security!

Rdr. Arsenios

February 24th 2003, 11:45 AM

[QUOTE]02-24-2003 @ 06:32 AM
Freak:

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

The apostle Paul tells us "those he justified, he also glorified."

If you have been justified God promises to glorify you.

Actually, your quotation of the verse is correct - "glorified", and not, as you have changed it to read, "[will] glorify"...

I suppose a really interesting line of questions might be:

Can we be saved outside repentance - eg unrepentant? Is there such a thing as unrepenant salvation?

And if not, then can we say that repentance saves? And if not, [for it is Christ Who saves, not our repentance, yes?] then can we say that our failure to repent damns us?

And if yes to this last, morality enters the picture, and we we have human agency seeking God's mercy in repentance...

God glorified those who repented thoroughly, the "perfected saints" as Paul calls them - And Paul was, of course, himself one of these when he wrote the words above, which were a part the work of that divine glorification... [We call it (Paul's writing) Biblical inerrance these days, yes?]

Paul was not the only one... There were many others with him, in addition to the apostles, and there will always continue to be until the end of the age...

How is it, do you think, that outside of the work of repentance, which is ours to do, we can become "conformed to the likeness of his Son"? We have the image, yes?

geo

Sozo

February 24th 2003, 12:10 PM

02-24-2003 @ 09:45 AM
George Blaisdell:

How is it, do you think, that outside of the work of repentance, which is ours to do, we can become "conformed to the likeness of his Son"? We have the image, yes?

geo

If I may interject...

The only sin that is repented of is unbelief. Once we believe (as God judges the validity of), we are in the image of Christ... Holy, righteous, perfect, etc.

Freak

February 24th 2003, 12:27 PM

02-24-2003 @ 03:45 PM
George Blaisdell:

[QUOTE]02-24-2003 @ 06:32 AM
Freak:

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

The apostle Paul tells us &quot;those he justified, he also glorified.&quot;

If you have been justified God promises to glorify you.

Actually, your quotation of the verse is correct - "glorified", and not, as you have changed it to read, "[will] glorify"...

I suppose a really interesting line of questions might be:

Can we be saved outside repentance - eg unrepentant? Is there such a thing as unrepenant salvation?

And if not, then can we say that repentance saves? And if not, [for it is Christ Who saves, not our repentance, yes?] then can we say that our failure to repent damns us?

And if yes to this last, morality enters the picture, and we we have human agency seeking God's mercy in repentance...

God glorified those who repented thoroughly, the "perfected saints" as Paul calls them - And Paul was, of course, himself one of these when he wrote the words above, which were a part the work of that divine glorification... [We call it (Paul's writing) Biblical inerrance these days, yes?]

Paul was not the only one... There were many others with him, in addition to the apostles, and there will always continue to be until the end of the age...

How is it, do you think, that outside of the work of repentance, which is ours to do, we can become "conformed to the likeness of his Son"? We have the image, yes?

geo

Looks like you failed to deal with the truth of Romans 8:30.

You said incorrectly: God glorified those who repented thoroughly, the "perfected saints" as Paul calls them -

The Scriptures says: And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Justification is what will bring about glorification. If you have been justified then God promises to bring about glorification (wanna talk about eternal security). The burden of proof lies with you my friend to prove otherwise.

Rdr. Arsenios

February 24th 2003, 01:30 PM

02-24-2003 @ 08:10 AM
Sozo:

> If I may interject...

Sozo, your thoughts are as the morning dew!

> The only sin that is repented of is unbelief. Once we believe (as God judges the validity of), we are in the image of Christ... Holy, righteous, perfect, etc.

I disagree on the following grounds:

All demons believe. Theological knowledge without the corresponding practice of it is the theology of demons, you see... They are all Bible experts... They never sleep... The Apostolic Church exercises power over them, as did Christ in His walk upon the earth.

So that turning from unbelief is hardly adequate... And besides, given the nature of most beliefs, unbelief is not always that unhealthy!

And we were created by God in His holy image, and we fell away in what we did, for all have sinned... The path to the regaining of the kingdom of heaven, the contest to which we are called, the cross which we are to daily pick up, so as to follow Christ, is repentance, which incarnates into our bodies and souls the beliefs that otherwise are without praxis, for these unenacted beliefs are the theology of demons, who believe, but do not do, the Word of God...

geo

Sozo

February 24th 2003, 01:43 PM

Demons believe in God as I believe in a Coke bottle. I know it's there, but I have not surrenderd my will, my hope, and my life to it.

Regeneration is an event, not a process. Those whom have believed the gospel belong to Him, they have passed from death to life.

Are you "saved" geo? Or is it your hope, that you might be?

Rdr. Arsenios

February 24th 2003, 01:55 PM

Freak writes:

> Looks like you failed to deal with the truth of Romans 8:30.

8:30 "...these whom He justified, He also glorified."

> You said incorrectly: God glorified those who repented thoroughly, the "perfected saints" as Paul calls them -

[snip]

I agree that justification is sequentially prior to glorification, as you argued in the [snip]...

The interesting question for you is the role of repentance in justification, and the issue of Paul being glorified by God in his ministry, in his writing of the epistles, his establishing of the Churches, even in his "thorn in the flesh", and in his great suffering...

Do you recognize the Pauline term "perfecting of the saints"? And what do you think is its vehicle, from the human perspective? Does ongoing repentance have anything to do with this process? [I believe you call it 'sanctification.]

The issue in 8:30 is the past tense [aorist] of "glorified"... My question to you is: "Just when, in the past, is Paul referring to, that those justified were glorified? Could you provide me with a list of names of those so glorified? And their dates?" You see, you changed the tense to the FUTURE glorified, yet it clearly is NOT a future tense...

geo

Rdr. Arsenios

February 24th 2003, 02:13 PM

[QUOTE]02-24-2003 @ 09:43 AM
Sozo:

> Demons believe in God as I believe in a Coke bottle. I know it's there, but I have not surrenderd my will, my hope, and my life to it.

Bingo!!! You get the prize! You have precisely placed your finger on the difference between belief and praxis! Faith, you see, is belief in action, and not, as you had earlier argued, a mere turning from unbelief...

> Regeneration is an event, not a process.

"I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins..."

So are you saying that repentance is over once you are baptized? If so, you make the apostolic Church of the first century a liar...

> Those whom have believed the gospel belong to Him, they have passed from death to life.

The Greek pisteuo is a much better word than the English 'believe', for it means praxis combined with mental assent...

> Are you "saved" geo? Or is it your hope, that you might be?

I was saved when Christ died upon the Cross, I will be saved when I am baptized in 9 days [God willing - Please pray for me], and I shall be saved if I then remain faithful in Him "to the end", as Paul says ["Working out salvation in fear and trembling..."].

I will not be saved if I then decide to become an axe murdering serial killer who curses God into the grave... And outside of ongoing repentance, I will do no better than such a one as that.

Probably worse...

How about you?

geo

Freak

February 24th 2003, 02:48 PM

George--

This is simple--

Glorification occurs after justification. Glorification is the last stage of our salvation experience. God promises that those whom are justified will experience glorification. Done deal. Secure!

Now to your issue of the past/future tense of glorification station in life. Did you not know that, for example, in Isaiah 53, the work of the servant of Jehovah is spoken of as though His sacrifice had already been made? In the realms of the Divine-the event had occured. This is a Divine mystery. In God's foreknowledge He knows those whom are justified and glorified because He promises to complete the work He has started (see Phil. 1:6). My point still stands-those whom are justified will be glorified. Eternal security at its clearest.

Now, to your concerns of times and dates? I don't have. The fact is those whom have been justified will experience glorification.

Freak

February 24th 2003, 02:51 PM

One curious note: Can one who has been adopted as a child of God (see John 1:12) be at any point unadopted? I believe undoption, in the strictest Biblical terms, is a foreign idea.

Sozo

February 24th 2003, 02:55 PM

02-24-2003 @ 12:13 PM
George Blaisdell:

"I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins..."

So are you saying that repentance is over once you are baptized? If so, you make the apostolic Church of the first century a liar...

There is one baptism... the baptism into the body of Christ, by the Holy Spirit.

Repentence is a one time event concerning sin. Exactly what sin are you going to repent of?
was saved when Christ died upon the Cross, I will be saved when I am baptized in 9 days [God willing - Please pray for me], and I shall be saved if I then remain faithful in Him "to the end", as Paul says ["Working out salvation in fear and trembling..."]

I will not be saved if I then decide to become an axe murdering serial killer who curses God into the grave... And outside of ongoing repentance, I will do no better than such a one as that.
.

Then you have no idea what the word "saved" means.

If you have the Son, you have LIFE! You don't get life, you have life.

"It is the Spirit who gives life "

"He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive"

"...you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

"Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"

"...your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own"

"for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise"

"And we know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."

"By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit."

Salvation is receiving the very LIFE of God!

Salvation cannot be lost, otherwise it is not salvation. Once it becomes salvation it is impossible & illogical to refer to it as unsalvation. The only ones who are unsaved, have never been saved.

The word "unsaved" can only possibly have one meaning. It cannot mean "undo". It is as ludicrious as saying one is "uncleansed", there is no such word. Even the bible makes that evident in Hebrews "the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins".

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life"

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

So, although there may be disagreement as to the validity of when someone believes, there is no doubt that once someone is a believer they are SAVED & they have ETERNAL LIFE! The cannot become "unsaved"!

An "unbeliever" is not someone who has once believed and no longer believes. They are only those who have never believed. The word "unbelieves" is not in the bible, and in fact is not even a word, it doesn't exist! A person who has placed their trust in Christ, and is saved according to the bible, cannot "unbelieve". Again the adjective "un" can only mean "non" when applied to believers. You can be lost, but you cannot be "unfound", the word does not exist.

Rdr. Arsenios

February 24th 2003, 03:30 PM

Freak writes:

> George--

> This is simple--

> Glorification occurs after justification. Glorification is the last stage of our salvation experience. God promises that those whom are justified will experience glorification. Done deal. Secure!

I could not agree more. IF we are being justified, THEN we shall be glorified. I utterly agree with your presentation of the matter of sequencing.

> Now to your issue of the past/future tense of glorification station in life.

"glorification station" ??? It would help when you paraphrase me to include a little of the original text... I do not recognize my having said anything about a glorification station in life where past-future tenses are at issue...

> Did you not know that, for example, in Isaiah 53, the work of the servant of Jehovah is spoken of as though His sacrifice had already been made? In the realms of the Divine-the event had occured. This is a Divine mystery.

Indeed, yet Paul is speaking here pastorally, and not prophetically, and he is telling the Romans that this is the way that matters occur, and this all in the past tense of the aorist. My point is that he does indeed have specific people in mind, namely the holy ones perfected in the faith - In Greek, "hoi teleoi tou pistou" [or en th pisth]...

His pastoral advice is for those who are NOT so perfected, so that they should become so perfected, to each according to their measure of faith and the providence of God...

> In God's foreknowledge He knows those whom are justified and glorified because He promises to complete the work He has started (see Phil. 1:6).

Indeed, while we are still wearing our skins, in which we were banned from the garden, we perceive but in a glass darkly, having an earnest of the age to come, but not it's fulness, yes?

> My point still stands-those whom are justified will be glorified. Eternal security at its clearest.

I agree with this - What I disagree with is your re-writing the tense of the word "glorifIED" in the Bible to reflect your understanding [WILL glorify], rather than conforming your understanding to the word written...

> Now, to your concerns of times and dates? I don't have.

Good! Me too! Yet I bet you remember Paul chiding the Corinthians [I think]: "Yet I speak as if to the mature in Christ." These are those who are glorified, wouldn't you say? And not those who are still milk-fed, like us?

> The fact is those whom have been justified will experience glorification.

I do not disagree with this fact at all. The question has to do with "WHEN IN THE PAST?" For Paul was writing as a father of the Church prescriptively from history, and not prophetically from vision, as was Isaiah...

So when in the past did God glorify those whom he had justified?

geo

Rdr. Arsenios

February 24th 2003, 04:02 PM

[QUOTE]02-24-2003 @ 10:55 AM
Sozo:

> Repentence is a one time event concerning sin. Exactly what sin are you going to repent of?

Sin??? I have bizillions of them, and they are legion - As a matter of fact, if you were to gut me of all my sins, you would find but scarcely a trace of anything of me left over!

And the laver of baptism is unto the remission of sins, as indeed we are given a clean slate out of its regeneration, and then sealed in the Holy Spirit, yet we then go forth upon the contest set before us, as Paul says, the arena of conflict, the progressive emergence of our tendencies toward sinning, to each according to their life lived, and the progressive cleansing in confession and repentance, keeping faith to the end, as Paul says. He even described his own efforts, with well directed blows, lest he be found at the end to have preached what he did not practice... Remember that line?

Then you have no idea what the word "saved" means.

Salvation is a life lived, and in the world, one can fall away - Judas cast out demons and healed the sick and baptized, yet fell away... We have far less than he had...

> If you have the Son, you have LIFE! You don't get life, you have life.

Yes. And what do you DO with it? Hang out at the mall munching Big-Macks? You will lose it that way... Anyone who deliberately sins having Life loses that Life, for it withdraws from him... It is thus that we are sorely chastened by the Lord...

"It is the Spirit who gives life "

Well, if you think that you are saved once and for ever, just deliberately commit sin, and you will find out, with Peter, that you need repentance... For you will experience a desolation that you will not ever wish to repeat... Peter denied knowing Christ...

[Lots of wonderful quotes snipped]

> Salvation is receiving the very LIFE of God!

Exactly so, and then walking the course set before us, remaining faithful to the end, lest we lose it.

> Salvation cannot be lost, otherwise it is not salvation. Once it becomes salvation it is impossible & illogical to refer to it as unsalvation. The only ones who are unsaved, have never been saved.

"Un-salvation?" Damnation is more like it, for we are not ignorant any longer, but have known Christ...

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life"

Ongoing present tense: "The 'one who is [keeping on] believing' in the Son is [keeping on] having eternal life..."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

Same ongoing present tense verbs in all these...

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

> ...there is no doubt that once someone is a believer they are SAVED & they have ETERNAL LIFE! They cannot become "unsaved"!

Then they cannot sin - And believers sin - The saved ones confess their sins and repent from them, and this is their saved way of living in repentance from their own sinfulness. You can't just proudly proclaim your election and sit on your hands in your [false] assurance of salvation without the great work of the soul in living a repentive live walking the course [contest] set before you unto the perfection of your soul... The one God perfects for you as you confess and repent of your sinfulness, one day at a time... Lest you become a speaker and not a doer of the faith...

geo

Freak

February 24th 2003, 04:39 PM

George--

Their glorification is realized at death (upon eterning the eternal presence of Christ).

Justification then glorification-this is a promise to all believers in Christ. Eternal security! Very secure to me, my friend. No semantic gymanastics on your part changes this beautiful promise.

Sozo

February 24th 2003, 05:02 PM

As a great theologian once said "If you don't know you're saved, you probably ain't"

I feel sorry for you and your lack of faith in God and confidence in the cross of Christ.

Why do you turn the truth of God, into a lie?

Only sinners sin, so I would suggest that you confess to God that you are a sinner and that you trust in His provision of the shed blood of Christ that takes away the sin of the world, and He will give you His life, and you will know that you are saved!

Rdr. Arsenios

February 24th 2003, 05:23 PM

[QUOTE]02-24-2003 @ 12:39 PM
Freak:

George--

> Their glorification is realized at death (upon eterning the eternal presence of Christ).

OK - Then you simply need to assert that you interpret this word "glorified" to refer to the life after the death of the one justified, and not to refer to anyone still living in the flesh.

> Justification then glorification-this is a promise to all believers in Christ. Eternal security! Very secure to me, my friend.

Me too - Yet we understand the times differently, for my tradition lives upon the earth as if not upon the earth ["making no provision for the flesh..."], and believes that in this life of turning from the concerns of the world, God glorifies believers upon their 'perfection' in the practice of the faith - In other words, like the Church in Acts, such believers, the saints, become wonder-workers in God, miraculous in the power of the Holy Spirit - And we call them saints, and normally do not call them that to their face, but only after their repose. The apostle Paul was one of these... His actions were glorified, and indeed in this glory he glorified God glorifying him, even in that pesky "thorn in my flesh" he asked to have taken from him...

> No semantic gymanastics on your part changes this beautiful promise.

May semantic gymnastics never take this promise from you, dear friend, nor anything else either... I agree with you, yet have an understanding that differs from yours a little, in that while agreeing that such glory does indeed come after repose in the Lord, it also comes to those who have been perfected in the faith prior to their repose, [of whom I am not one!]

The verb is simply a past tense, so that Paul must have had particular [glorified] people in mind... The gymnastics of converting that to a future tense is not mine, but yours, and it is bed-rock solid as a conclusion to be drawn from this passage, yet the passage itself does not use the future tense, as this one implicit meaning that you so rightfully cherish, does...

It's a past tense...

geo

Rdr. Arsenios

February 24th 2003, 05:48 PM

[QUOTE]02-24-2003 @ 01:02 PM
Sozo:

> As a great theologian once said "If you don't know you're saved, you probably ain't"

If you walk around thinking in the certainty of your own mind that you are saved, you probably aren't...

> I feel sorry for you and your lack of faith in God and confidence in the cross of Christ.

Well, Sozo, I appreciate your compassion for my [numerous] shortcomings -

And you are right - IF I had no lack of faith in God, and full confidence in the cross of Christ, I would live in reality a vastly different life - I would live a sainted life free from sin, and perfected in the faith...

> Why do you turn the truth of God, into a lie?

I do not look to you, dear Sozo, to learn the truth of God, for that would be a tradition of men... I look to the foundation and pillar of the Truths of God, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church for this understanding, and not to men outside Her communion... I understand you want security, but you want it outside self-responsibility unto a lifelong repentance from sinfulness, and prefer to have a pronouncement of righteousness, and imputation without you having to do anything, and rest on Christ's laurels for your guarantee. Yet Christ commands us to deny our self, and pick up our own cross, and follow Him, and this for salvation, and not just profession of belief...

> Only sinners sin,

That be you and me, yes?

> so I would suggest that you confess to God that you are a sinner

I AM a sinner - I confess that 500 times a day minimum!! How about you?

> and that you trust in His provision of the shed blood of Christ that takes away the sin of the world,

I absolutely trust in His provision... That is why I seek and practice repentance from my sinful and sinning self -

Are you like the Pharisee?: "I thank you God that I am not like these other sinners, in that you have declared me righteous regardless of how unrepentant I am, and for having for-ordained me from the beginning of the world unto a forensically declared righteousness that I should enjoy salvation no matter what I should ever do or not do, and that you have not made me like unto these other poor unsaved slobs who are beating their breasts in repentance and calls for Your mercy, for they have no confidence in You! THANK-YOU GOD!!!"

It is an endlessly tough nut, Sozo...

geo

Freak

February 24th 2003, 06:25 PM

George--

With all your concerns over the past/future tenses you are passing over the obvious and that is if you are justified you will experience glorification. Secure salvation one can possess if one is spiritually reborn by Jesus Christ.

Sozo

February 24th 2003, 06:27 PM

02-24-2003 @ 03:48 PM
George Blaisdell:

Are you like the Pharisee?: "I thank you God that I am not like these other sinners, in that you have declared me righteous regardless of how unrepentant I am, and for having for-ordained me from the beginning of the world unto a forensically declared righteousness that I should enjoy salvation no matter what I should ever do or not do, and that you have not made me like unto these other poor unsaved slobs who are beating their breasts in repentance and calls for Your mercy, for they have no confidence in You! THANK-YOU GOD!!!"

It is an endlessly tough nut, Sozo...

geo

No, you idiot!

The Pharasee is the one like you who professes that it is his efforts that makes him righteous (just as you just confirmed about yourself).

I am the righteousness of God in Christ because of His work, not mine!

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith"

Just because the RCC is the slut that seduces the world with the lies of Satan, does not mean that you are required to listen to her.

Freak

February 24th 2003, 06:29 PM

George--

Amazingly, you said: I AM a sinner - I confess that 500 times a day minimum!! How about you?

Is 500 enough? Or is simply once enough for God?

When you confess your sins to God, He forgives
all your sins. This in light of of this beautiful passage:

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Note: He forgave us all our sins.

What does the word "all" mean to you?

Rdr. Arsenios

February 24th 2003, 11:18 PM

[QUOTE]02-24-2003 @ 02:25 PM
Freak:

George--

> With all your concerns over the past/future tenses you are passing over the obvious and that is if you are justified you will experience glorification.

Yes, moving from glory to glory, I believe the text reads... I mean, even in the Old Testament there was glorification before death, such that the Tribes could not look upon the face of Moses, and that just in the giving of the law upon lifeless stone tablets unto death and conviction of sin.

How much MORE glorious than this is the Glory of the children of God in Christ, of which the giving of the tablets to moses was but a stopgap measure!

TMB translation:

2Co 3:7 - But if the ministration of death, written and engraved in stones was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was to be done away with,

AND:

2Co 3:18 -But we all, with uncovered face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

What do you do with "into the same image [as] the glory of the Lord, from glory to glory,"??? This is not describing glorification after death, is it? Or do you believe that we are looking "as in a glass [darkly]" AFTER our deaths??

I mean, it is really a no-brainer...

> Secure salvation one can possess if one is spiritually reborn by Jesus Christ.

I agree, one can, and one WILL if one lives a repentant life in obedience to Christ, and Christ will not do this FOR anyone - We are each responsible for our sins, and salvation is FROM sin, so that IF you claim salvation, you had BETTER claim a sinless life, and I really do not think that anyone claims to be free from sin forever after their spiritual rebirth in Christ... You are not claiming this, are you? You know you sin, in thought and word and deed, and all these AFTER your rebirth, yes?

Secure salvation is predicated upon God's honoring of the freedom of the human will in the image of God, and the choice of that person to live in obedience to Christ in repentance from all sin, persevering to the end.

I mean, do you not believe that we are to persevere to the end in our resisting sin? What about the passage that says to the saved: "Not yet unto blood have you resisted sin."??? Meaning more trials are coming. Security comes from looking foreward, not backward [remember that passage, where the farmer needs to look to the ground not yet plowed, and not behind him to what he has already plowed?] So what is this business of boasting:

"Well sure, Pard - Aah repented once an' got saved back on the 24th of June in '87, an' Aah've been proud to be counted among God's predestined elect ever since! Too bad 'bout them poor fellers over there, beatin' their chests an' all, 'fraid they ain't saved like me..." That is looking back, [to June 24, 1987] when the hard earth of our hardened hearts that heaven requires us to soften into rich soil with the plow of repentance is yet before us...

Aah, but enough about ME!!! :-)

geo

Rdr. Arsenios

February 24th 2003, 11:33 PM

02-24-2003 @ 02:29 PM
Freak:

George--

> Amazingly, you said: I AM a sinner - I confess that 500 times a day minimum!! How about you?

Sorry for the rant - A couple of hundred would be closer to the truth...

> Is 500 enough?

Dep[ends on how much I am sinning, wouldn't you think?

> Or is simply once enough for God?

Ooh! Well... My goodness, yes...

Once is definitely enough - I would not dream of bothering Him with the same sins over and over again, unless, of course, I was DOING the same sins over and over again - Which I AM. I mean, I am getting a small handle on a very few of my grosser overt actions of sin, but back that up to words and I am a mess, and don't even imagine going to the sinfulness of my thoughts!

So you do one sin, confess it, repent of it, obtain forgiveness, and it is a done deal. Once is definitely enough!

> When you confess your sins to God, He forgives
all your sins. This in light of of this beautiful passage:

Indeed... When you confess your sins. Are you suggesting that we confess our FUTURE sins???

Naaaaagh!!! No way! You can't mean THAT!

> For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Note: He forgave us all our sins.

What does the word "all" mean to you?

It means every one confessed and repented from... What do you make of the "public spectacle of them"? That is an allusion to, I should think, confession and repentance in the early Church. What do you think?

geo

Freak

February 24th 2003, 11:51 PM

02-25-2003 @ 03:33 AM
George Blaisdell:

It means every one confessed and repented from... What do you make of the "public spectacle of them"? That is an allusion to, I should think, confession and repentance in the early Church. What do you think?

geo

So, when one comes to Christ do you need to bring a notebook of all the sins one has committed (sins of ommission & commission)? Or can we simply accept God's offer of forgiveness of all our sins by acknowledging to God we are sinners and thank Him for the forgiveness He provides. So, when we ask Him to forgive us does forgive us ALL our sins or not, in light of this passage:

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Note: He forgave us all our sins.

What does "all" mean to you my friend?

You asked in a previous post: Secure salvation is predicated upon God's honoring of the freedom of the human will in the image of God.

Nope. Because we are His children whom He loves He makes sure no-one can snatch us out of His hands (including ourselves).

Freak

February 24th 2003, 11:53 PM

George, Jesus was clear:

Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

We are eternally secure "in Him"----

Rdr. Arsenios

February 25th 2003, 12:06 AM

02-24-2003 @ 02:27 PM
Sozo:

> No, you idiot!

Sozo, my dear child - You are adorable! But even so, when children misbehave like this at the dinner table, and start throwing food like this, and calling people names, the usual procedure is to give them a spanking and send them to their rooms.

Or perhaps you would prefer MS WARREN, for when you're being THIS NASTY!
':bow:'':whip:'

:smile:

> The Pharasee is the one like you who professes that it is his efforts that makes him righteous (just as you just confirmed about yourself).

I have never said this. I have said that if you do not do your part and repent and call upon the name of the Lord, you will not be made righteous, that there is no salvation outside the works of repentance and turning to God. You seem to think that YOU are the saved one who sits on his past whose actions have no bearing on his salvation. In my tradition, the apostolic one, this is a sure fire formula for arrogance and hippocracy.

> I am the righteousness of God in Christ [because of His work, not mine!]

Well, I am nothing but a sinner needing forgiveness, so who is the Pharisee? The one claiming righteousness: Or the one claiming sinfulness?

> "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith"

It matters not WHY you claim righteousnss...

> Just because the RCC is the slut

My goodness, child... You really should probably check in to an anger management class, and sign up for humility 101, and don't forget the soap to wash out your potty little mouth!!

> that seduces the world with the lies of Satan, does not mean that you are required to listen to her.

I do not listen to the Church of Rome... Are you fixated on her? She is, after all, YOUR mother, you see... She birthed the protestant reformation.. So that your fixation is understandable...

My Church is your grandmother. Your mother hurt us too, in the crusades, when She killed our faithful, and looted the treasures of our Churches for some 70 years, so long did it take to haul off all that loot in wooden ships...

All the other Christian Churches maintained communion together except the Roman one that later, through Her apostacy and disobedience, birthed the Protestant Reformation... And She turned viciously against them, seeking the imposition of her authority...

But that is another story...

geo

Rdr. Arsenios

February 25th 2003, 12:43 AM

02-24-2003 @ 07:51 PM
Freak:

> So, when one comes to Christ do you need to bring a notebook of all the sins one has committed (sins of ommission & commission)?

Depends on how Cleopatrian you are... She was the Queen of Denial, after all... :-)

There are some who do indeed keep a journal of their sins in deed, in word, and in thought... So that they remember to confess them all... There is some meat to that...

> Or can we simply accept God's offer of forgiveness of all our sins by acknowledging to God we are sinners and thank Him for the forgiveness He provides.

I would thank Him for that forgiveness at each and every confession - But I am just not baptized yet, so I do not get to confess regularly yet...

> So, when we ask Him to forgive us does He forgive us ALL our sins or not, in light of this passage:

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

It means all our sins, which we do indeed confess prior to baptism. Do you somehow think that it means all our FUTURE SINS???? Where does scripture say this? Or are you just making it up?

Note: He forgave us all our sins.

Yes, and NOT our FUTURE SINS... Unless you have a different Bible than the one I read - Got a quote proving forgiveness in the present of sins to be committed in the future? I don't think so... Is there any record of such a teaching in the early Church? No... You are but giving a testimony of men, having neither Biblical nor Ekklesial support for the first millennium and a half of Christian history...

I believe God, the Bible, and the apostolic Church - I do not believe some new doctrine that arose a mere 400-500 years ago against an apostate Roman Church...

What does "all" mean to you my friend?

It means all our sins up to baptism...

Nope. Because we are His children whom He loves He makes sure no-one can snatch us out of His hands (including ourselves).

Well, if you believe that, I've got a really nice bridge that I am sure you will want to buy in Brooklyn... We are told to be vigilant, to exrcise vigilance, over our hearts... Why would this be commanded if there were no sin to fear... It is precisely our old SELVES that we have to be vigilant against, that old man who is overpowered, but not dead until we die... Or do you discard vigilance now along with repentance? [I remember now - somebody said they repented once, so they don't have to any more, and anyone who keeps on repenting is exhibiting a lack of faith in God's forgiveness - Only demons wish you to stop repenting - Or do you disregard the unseen warfare of the soul too? (The heart of the practice of the faith of Christianity)...]

Sorry to be so confrontational, but you guys have got some really wierd ideas...

geo

Sozo

February 25th 2003, 12:46 AM

Again you show off your ignorance, and foolish blabbering.

I am not a Protestant. There is nothing about the RCC that is worthy of protest. It is, and always has been a cult, that worships another Jesus, and a God of self-righteousness, (Most of which, being passed down to the Protestant churches). I do not consider your religion is in any way related to "the early church", but rather to the church of Satan.

I see that you find it consistent with your false traditions to spit in the face of Jesus and to call His blood unworthy to take away your sin, and so you continue to seek to justify yourself by taking His place and performing your acts of self-redmption! Your Jesus is still on a cross, because you are insistent on sacrificing Him over & over again through your blasphemous disrespect for God's love, and your insults of His grace and the Holy Spirit!

Your "traditions" are the very reason that the world despises the gospel that is "the power of God unto salvation, for everyone that believes" You have turned the grace of God into a lie by adding your "filthy rags" of deeds that feed your delusional world that you live in.

Be reconciled to the true God, before your demons lead you too far from the truth!

Arminian

February 25th 2003, 04:04 AM

Freak,

I'm sort of embarrassed for you. That interpretation of yours is quite bizarre.

Grow up.

The apostle Paul tells us "those he justified, he also glorified."

If you have been justified God promises to glorify you. This is an eternal promise for those placed their faith in Christ. Eternal security!

You're really confused, Freak. You had to change the verb tense to make your interpretation work. Unfortunately for you, the verse says that the people he is speaking of were already justified and glorified. The verse doesn't apply to you, individually, because you were not justified before you were born, nor were you glorified. This is not a "promise to those who placed their faith in God" because it refers to a people PRIOR to anyone having FAITH! In fact, faith isn't mentioned because Paul is speaking corporately of the Israel of God! Yet you have to add "faith" to what Paul said and change the tense of the verbs.

Instead of employing your outcome-based theology, why not consider what Paul says in context. Paul had earlier argued that both Jew and Gentile alike were members of the first Adam. The true Jew was anyone who was circumcised in the heart, and the children of Abraham who were credited with righteousness where those of faith, not those who were merely of the flesh of Abraham. The people of the Second Adam are the true people of God and children of the promise.

Paul's message infuriated his opponents, as we can imagine. They argued that they were God's chosen people according to the promise made to Abraham, and so they argued that anyone who wanted to be one of God's justified people needed to be circumcised (i.e., become a Jew), and that anyone who was a Jew and turned back would be cut off from God's TRUE predestined people. Therefore, they argued that they were God's called, foreknown, predestined, justified and glorified people, based upon the promise made to Abraham. They argued that if Paul was correct, "God's word has failed." After all, the promise was made to "Abraham and his seeds" -- or so they thought! (I just love irony!!)

So, you see, neither Paul nor his opposition were concerned with this issue of individualism at this point. Both the Jews and Paul were arguing for the identity of the called and glorified people of God, and how justification (i.e., becoming a member of the chosen people) came about. The Jews claimed that they were that people and anyone who did not join or who fell away would be damned. Paul also made the same argument, but claimed that those in Messiah were that people. Here's how Paul addressed the issue in Galatians 3:16:

16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

It wasn't the Jews (or a bunch of individuals, for that matter) to whom the promise was spoken, but to Christ. Those in him (those who love God) become partakers of that promise through faith.

Now consider the only analogy that Paul uses to describe the situation in Romans 11:17-22:

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Paul here describes the olive tree. Those who stand do so by faith. Those who are cut off are cut off because of unbelief. Those Jews who were righteous before God and rejected Messiah when he arrived lost their position in the justified and glorified people of God (cf. Acts 3:23). Those who joined through faith can also be cut off if they do the same thing. What any given person does can't possibly negate God's love for the olive tree, but that obviously doesn't prevent them from being cut off of it ( God's justified people in Messiah).

So, Freak, I agree that those he justified he glorified. It happened long before you were born. Nothing can separate us-- the people of the Messiah -- from the love of Christ. You had better remain one of us, or you too will be cut off from us: his justified and glorified people. :bawl:

Paul's argument PROVES who God's true Israel is!

Arminian

February 25th 2003, 04:14 AM

Freak,

What does the word "all" mean to you?

What do the words "in Christ" mean to you? Perhaps you should avoid being cut off?

Freak

February 25th 2003, 09:33 AM

02-25-2003 @ 04:43 AM
George Blaisdell:

Well, if you believe that, I've got a really nice bridge that I am sure you will want to buy in Brooklyn... We are told to be vigilant, to exrcise vigilance, over our hearts... Why would this be commanded if there were no sin to fear... It is precisely our old SELVES that we have to be vigilant against, that old man who is overpowered, but not dead until we die... Or do you discard vigilance now along with repentance? [I remember now - somebody said they repented once, so they don't have to any more, and anyone who keeps on repenting is exhibiting a lack of faith in God's forgiveness - Only demons wish you to stop repenting - Or do you disregard the unseen warfare of the soul too? (The heart of the practice of the faith of Christianity)...]

Sorry to be so confrontational, but you guys have got some really wierd ideas...

geo

Yes, your theology is flaky due to the lack of Scripture you provide to base your wacky idea that somehow we can be unadopted.

BTW, George, be careful in quoting me. I noticed you quoted me incorrectly in a previous post. Thanks.

Freak

February 25th 2003, 09:42 AM

Arminian--

You said incorrectly:

The verse doesn't apply to you, individually, because you were not justified before you were born, nor were you glorified. This is not a "promise to those who placed their faith in God" because it refers to a people PRIOR to anyone having FAITH!

Reread verse 29 of chapter 8. Paul tells us: "For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to His likeness..." My friend, God foreknew US and thereby predestined us to be conformed to His likeness. God's foreknowledge about ones future salvation is not a mystery. He is outside of this time & space realm. The burden of proof lies with you to prove your off base assertion. God's Word has spoken clearly-now deal with it!

Freak

February 25th 2003, 09:45 AM

Arminian you said incorrectly:

"You had better remain one of us, or you too will be cut off from us: his justified and glorified people."

My salvation does not rest upon me. My salvation rests in Christ. In fact I rest in His hands.

Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

NOTE: No one can snatch them out of my hand. That would naturally include yourself too. Pretty secure to me!

Rdr. Arsenios

February 25th 2003, 11:45 AM

[QUOTE]

> Freak, You had to change the verb tense to make your interpretation work.

He doesn't seem to care... He seems more interested in potty-mouthing the Roman Church and castigating those who disagree with him...

I mean, if I were to find out that I had to re-write the Bible to hold my 'theology', I would walk away from the 'theology'. And he does this without a second glance...

I guess he just doesn't know what to do with the tense of that verb, and it does make sense that it is also a promise for our future, just as it was for those previously glorified, so he clings to his re-writing of the Bible and potty-mouths anyone who tells him that his empror is naked.

This is a very strange discussion - I normally do not converse with juvenile God bullies who vomit up words like "slut" upon those with whom they disagree.

> ...Yet you have to add "faith" to what Paul said and change the tense of the verbs.

Yes, he does not hesitate to re-write the Bible for his own interpretation...

> Now consider... Romans 11:17-22:

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

The relevant excerpt being:

"...be afraid.
21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off."

"BE AFRAID... YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF."

We are here plainly told that we are to be afraid lest we be cut off due to our failure to persevere in the faith. What can be more plain? If we are cut off, we lose salvation. It clearly can be lost, and we are not to live in some fat historical guarantee that we are saved no matter what we do, but we are to live in fear that we should be cut off should we not persevere... Nothing at all here about God forcing us to persevere.

"BE AFRAID... YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF."

And clearly Paul is exhorting them to faith, and is NOT telling them that they have nothing to worry about, that they are secure in God, who will save them regardless ofwhat they do, because after all he picked them from before the foundation of the world.

"BE AFRAID... YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF."

He tells them to persevere or die... And to live in that fear... [Working out our salvation in fear and trembling, as he writes in another epistle.]

Very strange conversation - Most lists I have been on do not tolerate a person posting like Sozo has done.

Sozo Buddy! I know you are reading this. I think you owe an apology here... And some repentance - Hurling the "slut" epitaph up through your being and out upon creation out of your mouth is not good for you...

I fear FOR you, Sozo...

geo

ps - I utterly disagree that being cut off is irreversible - Paul simply writes that if one loses faith, one does not need to be re-baptized. Repentance is what is needed...

For Peter, as for any Christian living in Christ, the loss was palpable, as soon as the rooster crowed, and he was greatly grieved... As will we be, should we be cut off, having once found salvation...

I work for a living - So only limited responses from me, if at all...

gb

edited ps - I fear I may haveFreak and Sozo confused in this post - Please forgive me if I do... geo

Freak

February 25th 2003, 11:51 AM

02-25-2003 @ 01:45 PM
Freak:

Arminian you said incorrectly:

"You had better remain one of us, or you too will be cut off from us: his justified and glorified people."

My salvation does not rest upon me. My salvation rests in Christ. In fact I rest in His hands.

Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

NOTE: No one can snatch them out of my hand. That would naturally include yourself too. Pretty secure to me!

George, you really need to stop attributing things to me that have never been stated by me.

Please deal with these sayings from the Son of God (see above quote).

Rdr. Arsenios

February 25th 2003, 04:57 PM

Freak writes:

> George, you really need to stop attributing things to me that have never been stated by me.

Freak - You really need to be more specific.

geo

Rdr. Arsenios

February 25th 2003, 05:24 PM

Christ said:

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."

Christ did not say:

"My sheep can be unrepentant sinners and still be saved."

The meaning is clear, that we are to have confidence in the trials we endure in our lives in Christ, for in the world, we will find tribulation, and in Him, peace that passeth all understanding. The opposition to our progress in Christ is no match for Christ or the Father, and we are to move foreward in our ongoing repentance with confidence in the outcome of the unseen warfare in the arena of conflict that is the process of transforming our fallen souls into the new man in Christ that we are called to become.

It does not mean that we are saved regardless of our conduct, that we can sin and not repent because we have been 'saved'... It is not a license to do evil with impunity and still be saved, nor a sentence upon the unsaved to repent without hope of or confidence in a salvation they can only hope they have been pre-selected for...

Yes, we have assurance of salvation in our walk in Christ, and no, we are not guaranteed salvation should we then become unrepentant sinners.

I am kind of shocked to have to argue for this here...

Do you really think you can sin unrepented and be saved? Do you really think that your entry into salvation is some kind of license to do evil and still be saved???

What is your answer to Romans 11:20-23?

20 ...Be afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

What do you say to this? You have not answered it.

"BE AFRAID... [lest] YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF."

Our salvation is utterly dependent upon our conduct, and our conduct of itself is utterly incapable of effecting our salvation, and if you cannot hold these two sentences simultaneously in your understanding, then you will not understand salvation, and the essential perseverence by us in our conduct to the end for it to occur.

If it is all God's doing, then we have nothing to do, and no ethics, and no choices to make, and on and on - If it is all God, then we are out of the picture, and the Bible is for nothing. And yet it is ONLY God who saves, and not ourselves...

Back to work! [sorry for any unedited typos!]

geo

Sozo

February 25th 2003, 07:09 PM

02-25-2003 @ 02:57 PM
George Blaisdell:

Freak writes:

> George, you really need to stop attributing things to me that have never been stated by me.

Freak - You really need to be more specific.

geo

You alluded to Freak using the term "****" in your post, when it was clearly I that called the RCC a "****', when I should have said "Great ****" or "Whore".

There are no Catholic believers in the Christ of the bible. You can not believe in Christ as redeemer and Mary as co-redemptress. There is one redeemer, who is Christ!

She is not mediator, nor a perpetual virgin, nor free from sin at birth, nor bodily assumed into heaven, or the daughter of zion, or Mother of God!

The Catholics worship a false Mary, a false Jesus, and a false God.

The Catholic gospel is another gospel, and not the gospel of Christ Jesus, nor the gospel delivered unto the saints through the Apostle Paul, or any of those who walked with Jesus.

The RCC teaches a message of self redemption, self-justification, and self-righteousness. They are not brothers & sisters in Christ, but are accounted as those who are lost, and in need of Christ. The gospel must be shared with all those whom claim to be Catholic, Morman, Jehovah's Witness, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, and so on.

If you think that I will coddle you into the kingdom with sweet words and flowery thoughts of what good people Catholics are, and how we should accept you as being of same mind and purpose, I will not. Furthermore, any so-called Christian, that accepts Catholics as "children of God", are being seduced by the enemies of the gospel of Christ, and opening up the door of deception to their children.

[Edited for content by moderator]

JCA

February 25th 2003, 11:02 PM

I have a question..

Once then "saved" forever, does one need to produce the Fruits of the Spirit, or try?

Also, I also see a discrepency concerning this:

He forgave us all our sins

Yes, this is true.. my sins where forgiven when I was reborn. Forgiven and Forgave are past tense.. I must admit, I would like to see the scripture that says we are now forgiven ALL sins from that point on.

Also:

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish

Doesn't everyone have eternal life? Or are you an annihilist? Even the damned lived forever do they not?

There is also the fact that I too am saved and reborn in Christ.. however, I too do not believe that I cannot fall way. The warnings are very clear, and they don't need to be stated again.. everyone in this thread knows them, even if they feel they can ignore them..

I beleive that at the end of my life, I will be judged by God/Christ, and IF I have followed the commands, kept myself pure, produced fruits of the Spirit, and repented any NEW sin I may commit, THEN I will have fulfilled what is needed for Salvation.

I do not understand how anyone can say that ALL sins are forgiven of you, if I haven't committed a particular sin yet. For instance, at my time of rebirth, I had never commited even the thought of Adultery. Is it now being said that my HUMAn body, still ripe with the Sin of Adam, cannot induce lustful thoughts? Are you saying that even though I never committed the sin prior to my rebirth, that I now cannot commit adultery, period?

Can I be like Sozo and act in a hateful manner with my words, and make unrighteous judgments about ALL Catholics?

BTW - I am not Catholic, but I know many, and my wife is one. So I'm not quite sure where you are getting all your information from, but some of the things being said do not hold true for every Catholic.

Also, I did a quick search in the Catholic catechism for salvation, here is what I found.

161. "Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him FOR our SALVATION is NECESSARY FOR obtaining that SALVATION

183. "Faith is NECESSARY FOR SALVATION. The Lord himself affirms: 'He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned' [Mk 16:16 .]."

1257. "The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is NECESSARY FOR SALVATION.[Cf. Jn 3:5 .] He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.[Cf. Mt 28:19-20; cf. Council of Trent (1547) DS 1618; LG 14; AG 5.] Baptism is NECESSARY FOR SALVATION FOR those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking FOR this sacrament.[Cf. Mk 16:16 .] The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are 'reborn of water and the Spirit.' God has bound SALVATION to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments."

There is little talk of Mary as an 'official' giver of Salvation, and I thnk you are getting what the Catholic church has been examining over the past 100 years, as being what is actually followed by most lay Catholics.

I do agree that many Catholics have taken these new 'understandings' to heart, and have then gone of to preach them, but I still feel that blanketing the whole of the Catholic religion as "heresy" as going a bit far.

But that's just me :teeth:

I would also like to know, seeing as everythig is so predestined as some seem to believe.. why God will be bothering to search the hearts and minds of people as He will in Revelations 2 (I think)?. What is the purpose of all this if God is already aware of those who will and will not be His in the end? Why are we living this out? God can end this now, save ALL the suffering, and just push those into the lake of fire that are destined to be there, and give the ones who are predestined to be 'righteous', Heaven right now! Why the wait? If it's so clear already, why does God and Christ have to wait until a second coming?

I don't see the reasoning behind life if it is already so predetermined that no matter what I do, my fate is decided.

In fact, I know that kind of thinking turns peple away from Christianity and most religions.. that thinking makes even botehring with religion pretty pointless, as no matter what we do, you are either Chosen, or you aren't..if you are, it makes no difference if you sin, and if you aren't, it makes no differnce if you live the life of a saint.

It sounds strange to me is all.. :smile:

In Love and Peace

JCA

Rdr. Arsenios

February 25th 2003, 11:31 PM

[QUOTE]02-24-2003 @ 08:46 PM
Sozo:

> Again you show off your ignorance, and foolish blabbering.

Please forgive me for offending you.

> I am not a Protestant.

OK...

> There is nothing about the RCC that is worthy of protest. It is, and always has been a cult, that worships another Jesus, and a God of self-righteousness, (Most of which, being passed down to the Protestant churches). I do not consider your religion is in any way related to "the early church", but rather to the church of Satan.

She was in communion with the whole of Christianity for her first thousand years, Sozo. If you are going to blow off the historical Church, then you are stuck with blowing off the Bible that She gave you...

Plus your bullying usage of rude and potty-mouthed language is really hard to deal with. I have reported this post to the moderators...

> I see that you find it consistent with your false traditions to spit in the face of Jesus and to call His blood unworthy to take away your sin, and so you continue to seek to justify yourself by taking His place and performing your acts of self-redmption! Your Jesus is still on a cross, because you are insistent on sacrificing Him over & over again through your blasphemous disrespect for God's love, and your insults of His grace and the Holy Spirit!

Do you really think that by hurling rude and outraged accusations that you can bully your way through conversations? It won't work, Sozo...

> Your "traditions" are the very reason that the world despises the gospel that is "the power of God unto salvation, for everyone that believes" You have turned the grace of God into a lie by adding your "filthy rags" of deeds that feed your delusional world that you live in.

That won't help either - You DO have it clearly in your mind that I am NOT a Roman Catholic, yes?

> Be reconciled to the true God, before your demons lead you too far from the truth!

I fear you are at least partially right, in that we have different Gods... My God does not tell me to vomit forth epitaphs of accusation and judgement against my brother...

Yet your advice to not be led too far from the truth by demons is appreciated. Please forgive me and pray for me...

geo

Rdr. Arsenios

February 25th 2003, 11:45 PM

[QUOTE]02-25-2003 @ 05:33 AM
Freak:

> BTW, George, be careful in quoting me. I noticed you quoted me incorrectly in a previous post. Thanks.

Well, what can I say?

I am sorry -

In my haste, and in the flurry of discussion aimed my direction, I laid on you a false accusation. I got you and Sozo confused in the fray, and assailed you instead of Sozo, who is the bullying potty mouth, and apparently proud of it...

So I am sorry for confusing you with him, and castigating you for what you did not do, although being the recipient of an unjust accusation is not always such a bad thing - Look at Christ...

The HURLING of an unjust accusation, however, is always a bad thing, which is what I did to you, and I can only ask your forgiveness - I was flat out wrong.

geo

AVmetro

February 25th 2003, 11:45 PM

Please watch the type of language you use in this forum. This is a family board and we do not condone the use of such language. Also, please make an effort to debate one another in a respectful manner. Thank you.

-AVmetro

Sozo

February 26th 2003, 01:16 AM

02-25-2003 @ 09:45 PM
AVmetro:

Please watch the type of language you use in this forum. This is a family board and we do not condone the use of such language. Also, please make an effort to debate one another in a respectful manner. Thank you.

-AVmetro

What language?

Sozo

February 26th 2003, 01:41 AM

02-24-2003 @ 03:48 PM
George Blaisdell:

I do not look to you, dear Sozo, to learn the truth of God, for that would be a tradition of men... I look to the foundation and pillar of the Truths of God, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church for this understanding, and not to men outside Her communion...

That won't help either - You DO have it clearly in your mind that I am NOT a Roman Catholic, yes?

Then what "Catholic" church do you boast of?

Salvation is a life lived, and in the world, one can fall away - Judas cast out demons and healed the sick and baptized, yet fell away... We have far less than he had...

Is the kind of false teaching that you picked up in your church?

Judas was never saved, nor was anyone else before the resurrection of Christ.

Salvation is the indwelling life of God "Christ in you, your only hope of glory". He who has the Son, has life! Do you have the Son, George?

What do you think the mystery of the gospel is? I suggest you do word studies on these three terms...

Life
Believe
Sin

Based on what the bible teaches, you have absolutely no idea what these terms mean.

AVmetro

February 26th 2003, 02:17 AM

Sozo writes:

What language?

"Sl*t" is not a word appropriate for use on this forum. The word itself borders on #1, and in conjunction with the nature of your post violates #3 . These two in addition to the rest of TW's rules apply to all posters on this forum:

[b]
1. No posts shall contain any intentionally blasphemous or obscene language, pictures, references, or links. A violation of this rule will result in suspension of 1 week with warning and may result in banishment from the forum.

3. We recognize that the nature of spirited debate may include the use of satire, humor, and strong statements of position; however, gratuitous name-calling, bullying, stalking, or outright rudeness will not be tolerated.

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=924#post924

Any questions you have may be sent by means of PM or email to the administrators.

Thank you--AVmetro

Rdr. Arsenios

February 26th 2003, 02:29 AM

Sozo writes:

> Then what "Catholic" church do you boast of?

Do I surprise you, Sozo? That I am not the Roman Catholic that you so gleefully attacked, and whose weaknesses you so readily cherished? Know you not that love is not a delight in another's sins and shortcomings? That this is hatred? And that if you do not even love your brother, your claim to love God is a lie?

What do you think happenned to the communion of Churches from which the Roman Church apostacized, and then attacked and sacked in Constantinople in the third Crusade?

That is the communion in Christ of which I boast, not that I have anything to boast of - I am not yet even baptized... The original communion of the apostolic Churches still exists, and their teaching is the same now as it has always been, adjusted verbally to the needs of cultures to acquire it, and the faith which it received at Pentecost it still has, and gives in turn to those coming into Her. She is one and Holy, and I am sorry you feel such a great need to attack what you are not knowledgable in...

She is the Apostolic Church of the Holy Fathers, known in the west as the Eastern Orthodox Church. You know her as Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, and on and on. These are the Churches from which Rome departed.

Look, Sozo - Please forgive my tone. When you want to talk, we can talk, but until you can get a leash on your demons of hatred and potty-mouthing and disrespectful outbursts of criticism of others, you will have to be content with my silence... I am sorry, but I am too sinful to see another way...

I will pray for you, Sozo...

Your behavior is not good for you...

Nor for me... I slip too easily into judgement of you...

geo

GrayPilgrim

February 26th 2003, 02:41 AM

Sozo,

We've had this talk before. I know that you get emotionally involved and get defensive when attacked, but I am asking you as a Brother in Christ to use a calmer tone in this discussion. As I've read this George has tried to be patient and although we disagree in terminology, I think we mostly agree in substance:

GrayPilgrim

February 26th 2003, 02:50 AM

George,

As I haven't posted on this thread in a while I was wondering if you would indulge me a little? I would like to see how you would respond to the following (note I will not be citing Scripture here, although I can ina subsequent post to back up the position that I will outline.

When one puts there faith in Christ they will produce fruit in keeping with repentence. That means that those who are in Christ will endure to the end with a repentant heart and attitude. Those who are truly in Christ endure. Those who fail to abide in Christ producing fruit prove that they are not in Christ.

As I've said before if we would humbly listen to one another we would see we generally agree on this issue. Everyone who has been debating has said

Christ Alone is our Righteousness
We must repent
We must endure to the end

If I spent the time I could probably list even more areas that each person has agreed upon, but I think that should do for now.

GP

Sozo

February 26th 2003, 03:21 AM

02-26-2003 @ 12:17 AM
AVmetro:

"Sl*t" is not a word appropriate for use on this forum. The word itself borders on #1, and in conjunction with the nature of your post violates #3 [both listed below]. These two in addition to the rest of TW's rules apply to all posters on this forum:

Any questions you have may be sent by means of PM or email to the administrators.

Thank you--AVmetro

Perhaps you could enlighten me on what words you consider obscene and what words you don't, as I am not familiar with your cultural mandates.

As for "blasphemous", why you tolerate that quite regularly.

The word "blasphemy" is nothing less than the act of claiming for oneself the attributes and rights of God.

There are more blasphemous statements found here than any broadcast of "The Osbournes".

People who continually take on the position of being their own redeemers, justifiers, and perfectors preaching their false gospels freely and with the seduction of a courtesan (is this one acceptable?)

Banning me is no shame to me, it is only the shame of those who tolerate their Lord & Savior's name to be maligned by Godless men who disguise themselves as "brothers", but are enemies of the cross where Christ's blood was shed.

Arminian

February 26th 2003, 05:36 AM

02-25-2003 @ 01:45 PM
Freak:

Arminian you said incorrectly:

"You had better remain one of us, or you too will be cut off from us: his justified and glorified people."

My salvation does not rest upon me. My salvation rests in Christ. In fact I rest in His hands.

Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

So I guess that means you couldn't reply directly to my post?

NOTE: No one can snatch them out of my hand. That would naturally include yourself too. Pretty secure to me!

The word "snatch" here refers to an outside person or force -- not to the person himself. If you begin at the beginning of the chapter you will notice who he says the "thieves" are. Now, taking in its context, it obviously doesn't refer to apostasy. John 15:1-9 does, however.

As for the rest of your comments, I will reply later today if time allows.

Freak

February 26th 2003, 10:33 AM

God's Word tells us clearly:

I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Notice the promise of God's Word. The work Christ began in us (justification-making us right before God) will (not might/or maybe) but will carry it on to completion (which is our realized glorification in the eternal presence of Christ). Completion means the finish. Wanna talk about eternal security.

Rdr. Arsenios

February 26th 2003, 11:25 AM

GrayPilgrim writes:

George,

> When one puts their faith in Christ they will produce fruit in keeping with repentence. That means that those who are in Christ will endure to the end with a repentant heart and attitude. Those who are truly in Christ endure. Those who fail to abide in Christ producing fruit prove that they are not in Christ.

Dear Pilgrim:

We ALL place our faith in Christ, and we ALL fall away. The question is: What should we do about it? We can deny that we have fallen away, affirming our staunchness of belief in the face of a mountain of sins that ever grows larger, or we can confess these sins in contrition and sorrow before our Lord and Savior in His Holy Church, and seek forgiveness, and turn from them in repentance calling on the name of the Lord in prayer.

If we do the latter, we will bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, and will live faithful lives. When we fail to do the latter, we fall away. The Heb 6:4-6 thread is about this, where Paul is asked what to do about those who have become fully Christian and saved, having tasted all the gifts, and then fall away? The question was, "Should we re-baptize them?" And the answer is no... They are to move foreward in repentance, not backward into a re-crucifixion of our Lord.

And it is ONLY those who are IN the Lord who CAN fall away, yes? [If one is not in Him, how can one fall away from Him??] So endurance to the end is not in any way guaranteed to a person in Christ outside of that person's willingness to endure. We are not puppets of God, we are His creation in His image, fallen in sin through death... And perseverance to the end involves falling away, and even if we do not, to endure anyway, when grace departs, as with the noble Job, for it is by this fire that our souls are purified even further, and there is no limit to that purity of soul in Christ.

You wrote: "Those who fail to abide in Christ producing fruit prove that they are not in Christ. "

There is a falling away, clearly shown in Hebrews 6, and its cure is not re-baptizing...

Everyone who has been debating has said

Christ Alone is our Righteousness
We must repent
We must endure to the end

Our repentance is but rags, yet without these rags, we repel ourselves from Christ, and "beareth thorns and briers" [sins, which are rejected by God] and bearing sins, we become "nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." [Heb 6:8]

We can indeed, having been truely saved, fall away into sins [thorns], and become accursed, should we not mend our ways in confession of these sins and repentance from them. Heb 6 is utterly clear on this... [Although some of the translations of it are a little murky...]

And yes, it has been a strange thread, where I seem to have been arguing that nobody repents or confesses FOR us, and that unconfessed and unrepented sinfulness is rejected by God... And finding all manner of opposition, for folks here seem to think that our security in Christ means that we can sin and not repent once we are reborn, and still be saved. The cause of falling away [as found in Heb 6] is unrepented sinning...

And we all sin, if not in deed, then in word, and if not in word, then in thought, and all these need to be purged from our souls, for blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God... And that purity is attained in our voluntary repentance, by faith, through God's Grace. All are needed...

geo

Rdr. Arsenios

February 26th 2003, 11:53 AM

02-26-2003 @ 06:33 AM
Freak:

> God's Word tells us clearly:

I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

> Notice the promise of God's Word. The work Christ began in us (justification-making us right before God) will (not might/or maybe) but will carry it on to completion (which is our realized glorification in the eternal presence of Christ). Completion means the finish. Wanna talk about eternal security.

God is faithful unto the ages of the ages, Freak, and He will indeed complete what He has begun. The only thing at issue is you and me, and whereas you are sure about you, I am not sure at all about me. I find my security in fear and trembling and contrition and repentance before the almighty Creator of the universe, and not in my gratitude for God's having preselected me from before I came into existence ["I thank-you God for not having made me like these other unsaved people..."] I am no better than the Publican, no better than the woman caught in adultery, than Saul who persecuted and had killed the followers of Christ... I am a sinner in constant need of forgiveness, and I do not claim Christ's righteousness, but seek union with God in repentance from sins that are legion...

"Heal my soul, for I have sinned against Thee" Ps 50/51

I cannot find in me any cause to live in anything but repentance. "My sin is ever before me..." And I pray that I will never lose sight of my sinfulness, that I will never consider myself "safe from sin" so as to let down my vigilance against sin in my soul. I need more, not less, such vigilance...

Speaking of which, have you found it in your heart yet to forgive an old sinner like me who has asked your forgiveness for wrongly accusing you?

geo

Freak

February 26th 2003, 01:40 PM

02-26-2003 @ 03:53 PM
George Blaisdell:

God is faithful unto the ages of the ages, Freak, and He will indeed complete what He has begun. The only thing at issue is you and me, and whereas you are sure about you, I am not sure at all about me. I find my security in fear and trembling and contrition and repentance before the almighty Creator of the universe, and not in my gratitude for God's having preselected me from before I came into existence ["I thank-you God for not having made me like these other unsaved people..."] I am no better than the Publican, no better than the woman caught in adultery, than Saul who persecuted and had killed the followers of Christ... I am a sinner in constant need of forgiveness, and I do not claim Christ's righteousness, but seek union with God in repentance from sins that are legion...

"Heal my soul, for I have sinned against Thee" Ps 50/51

I cannot find in me any cause to live in anything but repentance. "My sin is ever before me..." And I pray that I will never lose sight of my sinfulness, that I will never consider myself "safe from sin" so as to let down my vigilance against sin in my soul. I need more, not less, such vigilance...

Speaking of which, have you found it in your heart yet to forgive an old sinner like me who has asked your forgiveness for wrongly accusing you?

geo

George, I'm glad to hear you agree with God's Word in regards to the eternal security of the believer.

I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

As I pointed out earlier, we can rest within this beautiful promise that God will (note the word: WILL) complete the work He has begun. So, now I invite you rest in christ and not in your SELF.

Arminian

February 26th 2003, 03:39 PM

Freak,

Notice the promise of God's Word. The work Christ began in us (justification-making us right before God) will (not might/or maybe) but will carry it on to completion (which is our realized glorification in the eternal presence of Christ). Completion means the finish. Wanna talk about eternal security.

Actually, the "good work" begun is the ministry to the saints, but I can address that later.

The reason Paul has such confidence concerning the Philipians is found in the following verses. They have him in their heart (or he as them in his heart). They have identified with his chains and his service to the saints and have endured persecution. Seeing these things gives him great confidence concerning their future.

William James once said that the best way to predict future behavior is to observe past behavior.

Freak

February 26th 2003, 04:00 PM

02-26-2003 @ 07:39 PM
Arminian:

Freak,

Actually, the "good work" begun is the ministry to the saints, but I can address that later.

The reason Paul has such confidence concerning the Philipians is found in the following verses. They have him in their heart (or he as them in his heart). They have identified with his chains and his service to the saints and have endured persecution. Seeing these things gives him great confidence concerning their future.

William James once said that the best way to predict future behavior is to observe past behavior.

I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus

Note the words: in you.

He was speaking to a person. The work God has started in the saints He will carry it to completion. Eternal security in Christ.

spl_cadet

February 26th 2003, 04:07 PM

02-25-2003 @ 03:09 PM
Sozo:
There are no Catholic believers in the Christ of the bible.

I beg to differ. I happen to know quite a few who are, including myself.

You can not believe in Christ as redeemer and Mary as co-redemptress. There is one redeemer, who is Christ!

Well firstly, you don't have to believe in Mary being the co-redemtrix. Secondly, this is one of those weird translation things. The co means "with." It's like your boss and you are co-workers, you work together but aren't equal.

She is not mediator,

She can however interceed for us with her Son, as recorded in the wedding feast at Cana.

nor a perpetual virgin, nor free from sin at birth,

This despite the fact that the Early Church Father's believed that she was a perpeptual virgin and was free from sin from the moment of conception.

nor bodily assumed into heaven,

Then where are her relics? You know how much we like those things and how devoted we are to Mary. Where are the relics that we would have had of her?

or Mother of God!

Was Jesus God and did Mary give birth to Jesus?

The Catholics worship a false Mary,

Actually we don't worship her.

a false Jesus, and a false God.

Really? So the Protestant Trinity is different from the Catholic Trinity?

The RCC teaches a message of self redemption, self-justification, and self-righteousness.

Sorry, but we follow sola gratia. We actually believe the same thing as the Lutherans in regards to faith and salvation (we spent a couple centuries arguing over semantics).

If you think that I will coddle you into the kingdom with sweet words and flowery thoughts of what good people Catholics are, and how we should accept you as being of same mind and purpose, I will not.

How about a compromise then? How about you actually understand what we teach first?

Furthermore, any so-called Christian, that accepts Catholics as "children of God", are being seduced by the enemies of the gospel of Christ, and opening up the door of deception to their children.

Love you too:hmm:

If the mods want this moved over to religion I'll do that, just give me a PM.

JCA

February 27th 2003, 12:18 AM

Hmm.. I should feel slighted.. but somehow, being ignored when you have questions seems typical around people trying to get the best of each other.

:bonk:

2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

IN Love and Peace

JCA

Arminian

February 27th 2003, 01:11 AM

Freak,

Note the words: in you.

He was speaking to a person.

Sorry, but "you" is plural in the Greek. Besides, your point wouldn't affect my argument anyhow. But you won't find out why because you haven't addressed by arguments directly.

I'll be back....:yipee:

Freak

February 27th 2003, 10:43 AM

02-27-2003 @ 05:11 AM
Arminian:

Freak,

Sorry, but "you" is plural in the Greek. Besides, your point wouldn't affect my argument anyhow. But you won't find out why because you haven't addressed by arguments directly.

I'll be back....:yipee:

I understand that but apparently you didn't take the time to really read my post. I said:

I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus

Note the words: in you.

He was speaking to a person. The work God has started in the saints He will carry it to completion. Eternal security in Christ.

Now, Ariminian, did you note the word: saints

I realized Paul was talking about a group of believers. But you are desperate in wanting to push your faulty agenda you failed to read my post carefully resulting in you looking foolish.

The fact remains within the group are individuals-they consist of the saints. God promises to complete the work He has started. This is clear!

Freak

February 27th 2003, 10:49 AM

02-27-2003 @ 05:11 AM
Arminian:

Freak,

Sorry, but "you" is plural in the Greek. Besides, your point wouldn't affect my argument anyhow. But you won't find out why because you haven't addressed by arguments directly.

I'll be back....:yipee:

What part of eternal do you not understand? Eternal means just that eternal. Jesus gives us eternal life.

Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Wanna talk about eternal security.

I'm also wanting you to speak on this issue of adoption. It clear from passages like John 1:12 that we become "children of God" once we receive Christ. We are adopted into His family. Are you telling me we can become unadopted (this unadoption is foreign in Scripture)? By what objective standard do you use to test to see if we have been unadopted? No one seems capable to answer these questions. Hmmmm...

Rdr. Arsenios

February 27th 2003, 11:44 AM

02-26-2003 @ 12:00 PM
Freak:

I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus

Note the words: in you.

He was speaking to a person. The work God has started in the saints He will carry it to completion. Eternal security in Christ.

Arminian has already noted that the "in you" is referring to the Philippians, and not to a person, and I would add that exegetically, it is referring to the Church at Philippi, and not to individuals there, for he addresses in 1:1 'all the saints... bishops and deacons..." and in 1:5 'for your communion [in the evangel] [epi th koinwnia umwn eis to euaggelion].

And he does indeed go on in 6 to say: "Being persuaded of this very thing, that the One Who began a good work in you [all] will be bringing it to perfection until the day of Jesus Christ."

Hence we see that the "bringing to perfection" goes on "until the day of Jesus Christ." And note that Paul writes not "Every individual Christian in whom God has begun a good work..." but instead writes to this wonderful and Holy Church in Philippi that "I am persuaded... "[concerning you all - the Church at Philippi] [pepoiqws (pepoithoos) = I am persuaded]

So that he is thanking God for them, and is expressing confidence in their ongoing progression in perfection, that God will keep it progressing until the day of Christ, and this based on what he sees in that communion that is the Church in Philippi... Which he goes on to affirm in 1:25 "And having been persuaded of this, I know that I shall stay and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith..."

There is progress in faith, do you see, and there is also falling away, and Paul rejoices that this Church is progressing, and he goes on to instruct them that their "love be abounding yet more and more in full knowledge and all perception.." [1:9]

The security we have in Christ is in our progress in the faith, and not in the fact that in the past we have been given an 'earnest' of the age to come...

Why would anyone even want to look backwards to God [to some previous event, however holy] for their security in Him? That security comes in ever living in Him, in His commandments, in the ongoing and never-ending process of being perfected by Him and in Him through faith and a life lived unto Him in repentance from what is not of Him nor from Him... We are to look foreward for our security, not backward...

geo

Sozo

February 27th 2003, 11:57 AM

"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified"

"...to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me."

"...to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours"

"And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.

"For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren"

"By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all"

Rdr. Arsenios

February 27th 2003, 11:58 AM

>Armenian writes:

>Sorry, but "you" is plural in the Greek... you haven't addressed my arguments directly.

>Freak replies:

>What part of eternal do you not understand? Eternal means just that eternal. Jesus gives us eternal life.

Is this how you respond to a textual corrective? Do you just ignore it, change the subject, insult your corrector, and go on with a different issue?

Makes for wierd, Freak... I mean, granted Armenian was exulting on his banana over your error when you said 'you' means a person - Even so, this is a non-responsive reply...

And have you STILL not found it in your heart to forgive my transgression of you? I really am sorry for falsly accusing you of doing something you did not do... Will you forgive me?

geo

Freak

February 27th 2003, 03:16 PM

02-27-2003 @ 03:58 PM
George Blaisdell:

>Armenian writes:

>Sorry, but "you" is plural in the Greek... you haven't addressed my arguments directly.

>Freak replies:

>What part of eternal do you not understand? Eternal means just that eternal. Jesus gives us eternal life.

Is this how you respond to a textual corrective? Do you just ignore it, change the subject, insult your corrector, and go on with a different issue?

Makes for wierd, Freak... I mean, granted Armenian was exulting on his banana over your error when you said 'you' means a person - Even so, this is a non-responsive reply...

And have you STILL not found it in your heart to forgive my transgression of you? I really am sorry for falsly accusing you of doing something you did not do... Will you forgive me?

geo

Yes, I forgive you George.

I'm still interested in knowing what eternal means to you & Arminian? When Jesus said: I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Does eternal mean eternal to you?

Freak

February 27th 2003, 03:18 PM

02-27-2003 @ 02:49 PM
Freak:

What part of eternal do you not understand? Eternal means just that eternal. Jesus gives us eternal life.

Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Wanna talk about eternal security.

I'm also wanting you to speak on this issue of adoption. It clear from passages like John 1:12 that we become "children of God" once we receive Christ. We are adopted into His family. Are you telling me we can become unadopted (this unadoption is foreign in Scripture)? By what objective standard do you use to test to see if we have been unadopted? No one seems capable to answer these questions. Hmmmm...

George, perhaps you'd like to take a jab at this (see above).

Bill the Cat

February 27th 2003, 05:10 PM

I have 3 interesting questions to pose.

Could Satan repent?

Was Adam "saved" before he ate of the tree?

If 2 who were in the very presence of God could turn away, why can't we?

What about this verse? Wouldn't being seduced be losing your salvation? Adam and Eve were seduced.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

:huh:

Freak

February 27th 2003, 06:54 PM

02-27-2003 @ 09:10 PM
Bill the Cat:

I have 3 interesting questions to pose.

Could Satan repent?

Was Adam "saved" before he ate of the tree?

If 2 who were in the very presence of God could turn away, why can't we?

What about this verse? Wouldn't being seduced be losing your salvation? Adam and Eve were seduced.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

:huh:

Perhaps taking a jab at some my questions will help. I think the answers bring tremendous clarity to this issue.

Rdr. Arsenios

February 27th 2003, 11:43 PM

Freak writes:

> Yes, I forgive you George.

Glory to God! Thank-you! Third time was the ticket! I thought I was going to end up on my face on the ground at your feet asking you!!

> I'm still interested in knowing what eternal means to you & Arminian? When Jesus said: I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

> Does eternal mean eternal to you?

Eternal life is union with God in Christ - The alternative is eternal death. We can fall from union with Christ if we sin and do not repent. This is our responsibility. God will not confess for you, He will not repent for you... These are ours to do in His body the Church...

There is nothing that can separate us from the love of Christ, but we can fall from it. I do not recommend you finding out for yourself by deliberately committing a real sin... I did, and things got really ugly before I got back on track, and that with some blessed help. I won't do that again...

The ancient Church has been dealing with these kinds of issues competently since the time of Paul and Christ, and has never taught that once we commit to faith, and receive the gifts of God, that we cannot fall away. Hebrews 6 deals with this very issue, and when this happens, as it was happenning to the Hebrews, a new baptism is not in order, but better conduct, more faithful praxis, because those who have fallen away after justification [eg baptism, enlightenment, in the ancient church, (and in mine today as well)] are "NEAR to cursing, whose end is burning" [6:8]

This OSAS idea is a late-comer, even on the western Christian scene - It has never been at all a part of the original Church teaching - We are always at risk, and we always require constant vigilance against demonic attack in all the forms that the opposition musters, and when conducting this unseen warfare within the communion of the body of Christ, the Apostolic Church, the assaults are welcomed, for they provide, each and every one of them, an opportunity for the believer to progress in the faith unto the perfecting of his soul, for to those who believe, all things are for the good.

We will always prevail in these contests, for look Who we have on our side! Yet if we are not vigilant, and fall, as the Church has always taught that we can, and if we then do not get right back up, and confess, and repent, and move foreward in our walk, we can fall away. Our security in the faith is Christ, yet Christ does not sin, we do, and He does not repent for our sins, we do, and if we do not, we are headed for damnation, becoming a banquet and feast for the demonic powers and principalities awaiting our fall and rejoicing in our destruction...

A Christian has an awesome responsibility, and no power to do good... And outside the communion of Christ, we stand little chance of resisting the powers opposed to our salvation...

geo

Sozo

February 28th 2003, 01:12 AM

02-27-2003 @ 03:10 PM
Bill the Cat:

I have 3 interesting questions to pose.

Could Satan repent?No

Was Adam "saved" before he ate of the tree? No, and he also wasn't lost.

If 2 who were in the very presence of God could turn away, why can't we? Because then God would be a liar, and God cannot lie.

What about this verse? Wouldn't being seduced be losing your salvation? Adam and Eve were seduced.

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.It's not possible, and Adam and Eve didn't lose salvation. You must first be in a position of needing to be saved, to be saved.

Freak

March 2nd 2003, 12:34 AM

02-28-2003 @ 03:43 AM
George Blaisdell:

Freak writes:

> Yes, I forgive you George.

Glory to God! Thank-you! Third time was the ticket! I thought I was going to end up on my face on the ground at your feet asking you!!

> I'm still interested in knowing what eternal means to you &amp; Arminian? When Jesus said: I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

> Does eternal mean eternal to you?

Eternal life is union with God in Christ - The alternative is eternal death. We can fall from union with Christ if we sin and do not repent. This is our responsibility. God will not confess for you, He will not repent for you... These are ours to do in His body the Church...

There is nothing that can separate us from the love of Christ, but we can fall from it. I do not recommend you finding out for yourself by deliberately committing a real sin... I did, and things got really ugly before I got back on track, and that with some blessed help. I won't do that again...

The ancient Church has been dealing with these kinds of issues competently since the time of Paul and Christ, and has never taught that once we commit to faith, and receive the gifts of God, that we cannot fall away. Hebrews 6 deals with this very issue, and when this happens, as it was happenning to the Hebrews, a new baptism is not in order, but better conduct, more faithful praxis, because those who have fallen away after justification [eg baptism, enlightenment, in the ancient church, (and in mine today as well)] are "NEAR to cursing, whose end is burning" [6:8]

This OSAS idea is a late-comer, even on the western Christian scene - It has never been at all a part of the original Church teaching - We are always at risk, and we always require constant vigilance against demonic attack in all the forms that the opposition musters, and when conducting this unseen warfare within the communion of the body of Christ, the Apostolic Church, the assaults are welcomed, for they provide, each and every one of them, an opportunity for the believer to progress in the faith unto the perfecting of his soul, for to those who believe, all things are for the good.

We will always prevail in these contests, for look Who we have on our side! Yet if we are not vigilant, and fall, as the Church has always taught that we can, and if we then do not get right back up, and confess, and repent, and move foreward in our walk, we can fall away. Our security in the faith is Christ, yet Christ does not sin, we do, and He does not repent for our sins, we do, and if we do not, we are headed for damnation, becoming a banquet and feast for the demonic powers and principalities awaiting our fall and rejoicing in our destruction...

A Christian has an awesome responsibility, and no power to do good... And outside the communion of Christ, we stand little chance of resisting the powers opposed to our salvation...

geo

George, you waffle too much.

I asked: What does the word eternal mean to you and you reply: Eternal life is union with God in Christ.

But, is it eternal or not? That's my question.

When Jesus tells us He gives us eternal life-is that life eternal or not?

Gavin

March 2nd 2003, 12:45 AM

a debate between Arminian and Freak . . . this should be interesting!

:rofl:

Arminian

March 2nd 2003, 04:34 AM

a debate between Arminian and Freak . . . this should be interesting!

So far I'm the only real participant.

Freak

March 2nd 2003, 11:34 AM

03-02-2003 @ 08:34 AM
Arminian:

So far I'm the only real participant.

Perhaps you can help George in this discussion.

The Apostle John tells us:

Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

God has give us "eternal life"--is that life eternal or is it is really temporary since you believe we can lose it (salvation life)?

Jesus once said as recorded by the apostle John:

Then came the Feast of Dedicationat Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."
Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.* I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;* no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[ ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Jesus, made it crystal clear-"I give them eternal life"--what part of eternal do you have problems with? Jesus then goes on with this promise: and they shall never perish. Never means never (lest for course you have another dictionary, I'm unaware of that you'd like to use).

This life Jesus gives to us (His sheep) is first eternal and then secondly there's a promise that we'll never perish.

Rdr. Arsenios

March 3rd 2003, 12:05 AM

Freak writes:

> George, you waffle too much.

The mystery of the faith is held on the razors edge of a purified conscience - It defines the area between, for instance, self confidance and self despair... Egotism and despondency...

> I asked: What does the word eternal mean to you and you reply: Eternal life is union with God in Christ.

Indeed so - Were you wishing to talk about some other matter of eternality, when we are told in Revelation that the first heaven and the first earth will fall away and be no more?

> But, is it [eternal life] eternal or not? That's my question.

In this life in the flesh, my dear friend, it is eternal, for it is Christ, and the Life we are having is His, and both Christ and His Life are eternal, because Christ lived in the flesh. Yet we have another side to it, because entry into that Holy Life is predicated upon our obedience to Christ, and our union in Him is a product of our having turned away from sin and the concerns of the flesh, and the turning toward Christ, and the moving toward Him along the course set before us, from victory to victory, from glory to glory. You do recognize that all these things I am saying are from the Bible?

So that before Christ, we were walking away from Him in our sins, yes? And headed down a road of death in sin, and we are called to repentance, which means turning away from this walk away from Christ, and walking instead toward Him, yes? And insofar as we are walking toward Him, we are having eternal life, and if we get frustrated, throw our hands in the air, and just "bag" the whole effort of sustaining that walk toward Christ, then we will lose what we had, for we will then begin our sinful ways again, and fall away from the faith... So that the one who conquers has eternal life, and anyone CAN conquer, because they have Christ on their side, but their conquering is predicated upon their actions of faith, for faith without faithful action is demonic - For the demons know the truth, but do not DO the truth, and it is their fervent desire that we become like them, knowers of the truth, who HAVE the belief of it, but who knowing, do not DO it, because they think they are saved by their faith which they think is but assent to the truth without any action to back it up...

You really cannot head for a dictionary definition of eternal to understand AIONIC life... An aion is an "age", not 'endless' as you would have it...

> When Jesus tells us He gives us eternal life - is that life eternal or not?

It is indeed eternal, and it is indeed given, and if you think you can have it, that you can have a relationship of union, indeed of communion, with Christ, even though you scorn it and live a life of sin, on the grounds that your dictionary says that eternal means forever, you are simply mistaken... You can fall away from Christ after being 'saved' in the laver of baptism, and indeed that very problem is one that is addressed in Hebrews 6:4-6, where the issue was: "Should we rebaptize them? [the ones fallen away]" [And the answer is "No."]

We are told that we are to persevere in the faith to the end, and this for the obviously good reason that we CAN fall away, and that we SHOULD not do so... With the inevitable inference that our salvation is conditional upon our perseverence.

And the other side is that all the perseverence in the world will NOT save us, and if you can't understand how it is that both out perseverence AND God's grace are essential, and how it is that ONLY God's grace is sufficient, then I don't know how to explain it any better.

It is so obvious as to really not need all these words, except that there is a widespread idea that once 'saved' we are immune to being lost no matter what sins we then commit, and this idea can only bring glee to the demons, who want us to believe without doing what we believe, and join them in having theological knowledge without doing it, and giving us this crazy idea that our sins and our sinning is irrelevant to our salvation, at least once we have been handed it over as a free gift from God. You see, with that idea, salvation will certainly be wrested from us... It is an idea in which demons have a vested interest...

Look, my friend, we are lost in our sins, and saved FROM them, for Christ came to take away the sins of the world, yes? So what part of sinning do you think we will be able to keep in our salvation? That is why the Cherubim guard the Garden from our return to it, for God will not allow sin the 'benefit' of its immortality. Christ came that we find sinless lives, and did not come that we receive eternal life from Him, [as if it is some kind of commodity that is now our possession by right], so that we are thereby guaranteed permanentness of life in Him even if we then return into unrepentant sinners.

From the ancient Orthodox perspective of unchanged teaching for the last 2000 years, that idea is just plain nuts... Unconfessed and unrepented sin is utterly antithetical to salvation period, and I really do not think you are going to say that people who have been 'saved' are now all [or even some] living sin free lives, yes?

Enough!

geo

Sozo

March 3rd 2003, 12:29 AM

03-02-2003 @ 10:05 PM
George Blaisdell:
I really do not think you are going to say that people who have been 'saved' are now all [or even some] living sin free lives, yes?

If they aren't "sin free" than they will never enter the kingdom of God.

"And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

"...knowing this, that our old self was crucified with [Him], that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

" But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness"

I have never in my life ever heard more scripture twisting and perversion of the bible, than you have posted in that last post.

I'm sure you'll ignore the obvious evidence that I have posted here, but maybe someone will notice how deceived you are and help you out.

Bob Hill

March 3rd 2003, 12:57 AM

God said through Paul that our eternal life is secure. This is not only because we are predestined to be holy and blameless once we trust Christ, but also that examples of our security are our adoption and sealing.

According to Gal 4:3-5 we went from slaves to adopted sons. Gal 4:3-5 “Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.” Now, what does this adoption mean? We read in Gal 3:13-18, “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree’, 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant [or will diaqhkhn], yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.

How could Paul write that? We can change a will any time we want to, in America today. But the Galatian cities were under Greek law. And it was different under ancient Greek law. The greatest archeologist of Turkey, William Ramsay, wrote a lot about adoption in his Historical Commentary of Galatians, pp 349-355. He showed how the adopted son could not be disinherited even though the natural child could be disinherited. That’s why Ephesians 1 tells us of the security of our adoption. Eph 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

We enter into the full status of our inheritance and enjoyment of our adoption when the rapture takes place and we receive our glorified body. The time of our adoption, at the rapture, is shown in Rom 8:14-23 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

We also have the present results of our adoption. Gal 4:4-7 “But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

To show the surety of our adoption/salvation, God seals us and guarantees our inheritance and makes it all absolute by predestinating it. Eph 1:5-7,11-14 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works the all things [ta panta - the body of Christ ] according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” Our salvation is guaranteed and sealed by God. On top of that, it is all predestined. You can’t beat that.
In Christ,
Bob Hill

Rdr. Arsenios

March 3rd 2003, 01:06 AM

> From Sozo

> If they aren't "sin free" than they will never enter the kingdom of God.

Then we agree!

Yet the simple observable fact is that we do indeed sin, and the question is, what are we to DO about it? And the simple fact is that we are told to confess our sins and repent from them, finding forgiveness from sins in the Church. I do not think you will find any passage in the Bible where there is described any place outside the communion of the faithful where sins are confessed, repented, and forgiven, do you?

> "And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

> "...knowing this, that our old self was crucified with [Him], that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

> " But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness"

Exactly so!

> I have never in my life ever heard more scripture twisting and perversion of the bible, than you have posted in that last post.

Well, we disagree - From my perspective, you have ONLY heard it...

> I'm sure you'll ignore the obvious evidence that I have posted here, but maybe someone will notice how deceived you are and help you out.

I fully accord with your evidence... And I sorrow for your assurance...

And yet I appreciate your concern for me, as I hope you will appreciate mine for you. Will you please pray for me?

geo

- a sinner, who needs your prayers...

Rdr. Arsenios

March 3rd 2003, 01:24 AM

Bob Hill quotes:

> "Rom 8:14-23 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body."

The key relevancy to this notion that we are guaranteed salvation even if we become unrepentant sinners after being "saved" is, of course, 17... heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

And the key word in this sentence is IF... Which makes our salvation conditional upon our suffering together with Christ... So do you have another passage that tells us we are forced to suffer with Him? Or do we instead find Christ telling us that we are to deny ourselves, pick up our own cross, and follow Him? Hence our life of suffering, for the holy Cross is an instrument of torture unto death, yes? And this is something that Christ tells us WE ARE TO DO, yes? He does not tell us that He will do it FOR US, does He? So that our salvation requires our action, our willful suffering, and it is hard to endure, yet in Christ, it is a light burden, for we are no longer under the gravitous weight of sins, yes? This passage in NO way says we have an IF-LESS salvation regarding our chosen actions... Yet this suffering, if it is outside of God's grace, will not save...

geo

Arminian

March 3rd 2003, 02:44 AM

Freak,

Jesus, made it crystal clear-"I give them eternal life"--what part of eternal do you have problems with?
First of all, "eternal" is an adjective describing "life," not an adverb describing your possession of it. Life is in the Son (John 5:26; 1John 5:11), and it was always there, even before you existed. It would be there if you always had it, never have it or no longer have it. It continues to exist with or without you.

John equates eternal life with abiding in Christ in John 6:54-56. In verse 54 John quotes Christ saying that those who feed on Christ have eternal life, and in verse 56 he says the same thing, but he replaced "eternal life" with "abide," indicating that he either equates the two concepts or considers them directly related. 1 John 2:24-25 makes the identical observation and equates the "promise" of eternal life with continuing to abide in Christ. So it only seems logical to see John 15:1-9 as describing the same scenario, but with a view to falling away.

Arminian

March 3rd 2003, 02:48 AM

Freak,

Jesus then goes on with this promise: and they shall never perish. Never means never (lest for course you have another dictionary, I'm unaware of that you'd like to use).

I answered this question already.

The word "snatch" here refers to an outside person or force -- not to the person himself. If you begin at the beginning of the chapter you will notice who he says the "thieves" are. Now, taking in its context, it obviously doesn't refer to apostasy. John 15:1-9 does, however.

And who are his sheep? Those who listen and follow. Not those who used to listen and used to follow.

Rdr. Arsenios

March 3rd 2003, 06:13 AM

Jake the Lowly writes:

> And who are his sheep? Those who listen and follow. Not those who used to listen and used to follow.

"Well, Ol' Pard! Aah used te gie an ear an' foller, an' Aah figgered it out thet once'n Aah GOTS me that 'ternal life, Aah gots it fer ever'n'ever, so now Aah gits ter not listen ner foller, caus'n Aah'm already saved already - Aah GOTS MINE!! Too bad 'bout all you un-pre-selected udder fellers..."

Such is the Pandora's box of OSAS...

geo

Arminian

March 3rd 2003, 07:31 AM

Bob,

According to Gal 4:3-5 ...... yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.

Which is why they ae damned if they turn back. That's Paul's message.

Freak

March 3rd 2003, 11:40 AM

I asked George: When Jesus tells us He gives us eternal life - is that life eternal or not?

He answers again in double speak: It is indeed eternal, and it is indeed given, and if you think you can have it, that you can have a relationship of union, indeed of communion, with Christ, even though you scorn it and live a life of sin, on the grounds that your dictionary says that eternal means forever, you are simply mistaken..

You first say: It is indeed eternal --then leave it at that. It is eternal meaning everlasting, never ending. That simply means it never ends--Jesus gives it to you (through your simple faith in Him) and you possess it forever. This is not difficult to understand.

Freak

March 3rd 2003, 11:46 AM

03-03-2003 @ 06:44 AM
Arminian:

Freak,

First of all, "eternal" is an adjective describing "life," not an adverb describing your possession of it. Life is in the Son (John 5:26; 1John 5:11), and it was always there, even before you existed. It would be there if you always had it, never have it or no longer have it. It continues to exist with or without you.

John equates eternal life with abiding in Christ in John 6:54-56. In verse 54 John quotes Christ saying that those who feed on Christ have eternal life, and in verse 56 he says the same thing, but he replaced "eternal life" with "abide," indicating that he either equates the two concepts or considers them directly related. 1 John 2:24-25 makes the identical observation and equates the "promise" of eternal life with continuing to abide in Christ. So it only seems logical to see John 15:1-9 as describing the same scenario, but with a view to falling away.

The Son of God was quite clear. He tells us:

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Eternal life is a life where there will be no condemnation but a life where one has "crossed over from death to life." That looks like it's eternal to me. Secure in His promise.

Bill the Cat

March 3rd 2003, 01:11 PM

My question to boil the whole debate down is...when is salvation granted?

Rdr. Arsenios

March 3rd 2003, 01:32 PM

> Freak writes:

> I asked George: When Jesus tells us He gives us eternal life - is that life eternal or not?

> He answers again in double speak:

>[geo] "It is indeed eternal, and it is indeed given, and if you think you can have it, that you can have a relationship of union, indeed of communion, with Christ, even though you scorn it and live a life of sin, on the grounds that your dictionary says that eternal means forever, you are simply mistaken.."

Seems pretty clear to me - No double speak at all: This understanding is simply that we cannot live our lives in unrepentant sinning, according to the dictatorial rulership of the spirits of the air, and then regard ourselves as saved, simply because we have been entered into Christ at some time in the past. The consequence of sin is death, and outside of repentance, we are dead, for all have sinned...

> You first say: "It is indeed eternal" --then leave it at that. It is eternal meaning everlasting, never ending. That simply means it never ends.

Indeed it is eternal, this Life of Christ which is given us in the laver of baptism and the seal of the Holy Spirit. But it is our KEEPING of what is given us so freely by the Blood of Christ on the Holy Cross that is at issue. Our job as Christians is to *keep to* this simple faith we have received, to remain within it, to sturggle against sin, remaining faithful to the end... If we do not do so, we will lose what has been given, just as the Jews who grew on the True Vine lost their inheritance and were cut off by their lack of faith, and we are grafted in by our abiding faith... Yet should we not abide in faith, we too will be easily and surely cut off, and lose what we had gained in Christ.

> --Jesus gives it to you (through your simple faith in Him) and you possess it forever. This is not difficult to understand.

No, it is neither difficult to understand, nor is it Biblical, nor Christian. Nowhere in the Bible, nor in the entire history of Christianity, will you find this idea taught, that once you are "given eternal life" [as if it were some sack of potatoes you cannot lose!] you are home-free and can claim it even if you go out and commit future sins and do not either confess them nor repent of them... You have to really twist up the scriptures a LOT to squeeze them into THAT heresy... Nobody in the entire first thousand years of the undivided Church ever dared to try that one! It is nonsense on its face, and the deeper you get into it, the darker it gets...

As long as you are in the flesh, eternal life is conditional - And any presumption of human possession of it, regardless of their actions, is utterly vain and wrong-headed... Your relationship with Christ, your fully knowing Him, which IS eternal life, can be squandered in falling away.

The Biblical truth of this is seen in Hebrews 6: [The repetitions of 'once' in brackets are added for my emphasis.]

[4] For in the case of those who have once been enlightened, and have [once] tasted of the heavenly gift, and have [once] been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [5] and have [once] tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, [6] and {then} have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

The "once"s all mean previously, do you agree? And they do indeed constitute 'eternal life', or to be more precise, the earnest of it that we have as Christians upon this earth... And then those who have this - And Freak, are you presuming that you somehow have MORE than those whom Paul here describes as having fallen away? - Those who have had it all, so to speak, it is these very ones, is it not? It is these very ones who have fallen away, the very ones who have been enlightened, who have tasted of the heavenly gift, who have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the age to come... It is these very ones who can fall away - It is not any OTHERS who have fallen away, is it???

(':no:') [Good! Right answer!] :-)

That is the Biblical truth... And he goes on to say of these which have so fallen away [And this the very falling away that you so unbiblically deny the possibility of]:

[Heb 6:8] "But that which beareth thorns and briars is rejected and is nigh unto being cursed, whose end is to be burned."

"Nigh unto"... These folks who have fallen away are in a world of trouble, and need a lot of help... And help means confession, repentance and forgiveness of sins, for the original laver of baptism, which at first washed them clean from all their previous sins, is but once for each of them, as it is for us all...

So great was this issue that it was included in the Nicene Creed some 400 years later: "I acknowledge ONE baptism for the remission of sins..."

Rebaptism is wrong, for by it we re-crucify Christ unto ourselves... After that baptism, it is the water of our tears that keeps us washed clean in confession and contrition of sins committed after we are made clean in Christ in the Mystery of Baptism...

geo

Rdr. Arsenios

March 3rd 2003, 01:46 PM

Bill the Cat

> My question to boil the whole debate down is...when is salvation granted?

Christ granted it upon the Cross.

It was granted unto us at Baptism.

It is being granted to us in our living faithful lives.

It is granted us at our deaths IF we have persevered in the faith to the end.

It will be granted us at the final judgement -

Or NOT...

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom... [Because it softens the hardened earth of the arrogant and unrepentant heart - Paul carried his fear faithfully to the end, "working out our salvation in fear and trembling."

It is not some sack of potatoes we can claim to be credited to our account by God and thereby our personal possession, and irrevolkable.

If we do not remain faithful in the holy faith we receive at the illumination of baptism, we will not have salvation at the end...

The practice of the faith is essential, though certainly not sufficient, for our salvation...

geo

Freak

March 3rd 2003, 01:52 PM

George--

You said incorrectly:

"...eternal life is conditional."

Conditional upon what? It appears your teaching righteounsess by good works not through Christ.

Rdr. Arsenios

March 3rd 2003, 02:04 PM

Freak writes:

> George--

> You said incorrectly:

> "...eternal life is conditional."

> Conditional upon what?

It is conditional upon God's grace and our living faithful lives.

> It appears your teaching righteounsess by good works not through Christ.

I would suggest you get fresh glasses, because the ones you are seeing through are twisting my words.

You are clearly wanting ONLY God to have anything to do with salvation - And if eternal life is the relationship of unity we have in knowing the one true God, which is an ontological relationship, and not merely an epistemic one, then our participation is essential, yet only God saves. Why is that so hard? Why are you so gun-shy of Christian ethics, and the consequences of a Christian's unfaithfulness? Is it really so hard to acknowledge that our living faithless lives will result in our loss of salvation?

geo

Bill the Cat

March 3rd 2003, 02:09 PM

03-03-2003 @ 12:46 PM
George Blaisdell:

Bill the Cat

> My question to boil the whole debate down is...when is salvation granted?

Christ granted it upon the Cross.

It was granted unto us at Baptism.

It is being granted to us in our living faithful lives.

It is granted us at our deaths IF we have persevered in the faith to the end.

It will be granted us at the final judgement -

Or NOT...

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom... [Because it softens the hardened earth of the arrogant and unrepentant heart - Paul carried his fear faithfully to the end, "working out our salvation in fear and trembling."

It is not some sack of potatoes we can claim to be credited to our account by God and thereby our personal possession, and irrevolkable.

If we do not remain faithful in the holy faith we receive at the illumination of baptism, we will not have salvation at the end...

The practice of the faith is essential, though certainly not sufficient, for our salvation...

geo

So it is a continual thing? I keep getting salvation every day? And at the end of my days I get salvation, and at the resurrection of the righteous, I get it again?

And from your answer, you think that Baptism saves?
JP's article on "was this dip really necessary?" was quite informative.

I think one of the things that everyone that is faith+works is misunderstanding here is that we who are faith thru grace alone (clarified!!) don't want to do good works. I totally disagree with this assertation. I for one delight in showing the Spirit who lives in me by loving others. Oh, and someone posted somewhere that Jesus gave an added command to the Law by telling us to love. I believe it was a total summary of the whole law that Jesus gave. If we follow the two Jesus gave, all the other acts will follow.

Rdr. Arsenios

March 3rd 2003, 02:30 PM

Bill the Cat writes:

> So it [salvation] is a continual thing?

I pray that it is, don't you? Don't you pray that you do not fall away like those did who were described in Hebrews 6: 4-6?

> I keep getting salvation every day?

As long as you remain faithful in Christ. And this means that when you sin, you confess it in humility, and repent from it, and receive forgiveness in the Church, in which resides the power to bind and loose us from sins...

> And at the end of my days I get salvation,

"For to die is gain..."

> and at the resurrection of the righteous, I get it again?

The faithful will...

> And from your answer, you think that Baptism saves?

It presents us sinless into the body of Christ in His one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, Whose Head is Christ... So yes, we are saved in that illumination, and then sealed in the Holy Spirit, just as is referenced in Hebrews 6:4-6...

Our problem is our sins AFTER this initial entry into sinless relationship with Christ unto His death, and our initial rebirth as a very fragile "new-born" in Christ... For now begins the great work of the building up of this new-born in the face of his or her temptations and trials that we all face as Christians in the assaults of the demonic powers of the air... We are called to be conquering these, each one of us to become hO NIKWN, the one who is overcoming - Shaming the demons openly by the quality of our lives in Christ... Thereby running the race set before us, as Paul says.

> JP's article on "was this dip really necessary?" was quite informative.

Thanks, but I'll pass...

> I think one of the things that everyone that is faith+works is misunderstanding here is that we who are faith thru grace alone (clarified!!) don't want to do good works. I totally disagree with this assertation. I for one delight in showing the Spirit who lives in me by loving others. Oh, and someone posted somewhere that Jesus gave an added command to the Law by telling us to love. I believe it was a total summary of the whole law that Jesus gave. If we follow the two Jesus gave, all the other acts will follow.

Indeed...

Yet the only issue I have been addressing is that of CAN a Christian who has been "saved" fall away? And the Biblical answer, from Heb 6:4-6, is a resounding YES... And a caution to NOT do so... To keep on being faithful in Christ...

geo

Bill the Cat

March 3rd 2003, 02:38 PM

I concur totally that we can fall away.

My other issue was not with your idea, but another i was involved with on another thread. sorry, I got my replies crossed.

In reference to Baptism, I have always held that Jesus' blood was what washed our sins from us, and that baptism was that outward confession of the already accomplished grace imparted to us. If it is absolutely necessary, then someone else must be involved with our salvation other than us and God ( the one who does the baptism) thus, no longer making it personal. Or can we baptize ourselves?

Rdr. Arsenios

March 3rd 2003, 03:25 PM

> From Bill the Cat

> I concur totally that we can fall away.

Well Glory to God! I tell ya, it is flat out WIERD to have to argue for this!

> In reference to Baptism, I have always held that Jesus' blood was what washed our sins from us, and that baptism was that outward confession of the already accomplished grace imparted to us.

In the ancient Church, basptism constitutes the catechumen's entry into the Body of Christ, His Church, following a course of instruction in the faith, and the practice of prayer, fasting and repentance, that normally lasted some three years...

We do not divide the outward from the inward, for they are one, and a Holy Mystery of the Church, and outside of the event one can only speculate, as I am doing, without the illumination of the Mystery. [I am scheduled for baptism on the day after tomorrow.]

So that No, we do not affirm some inward baptism that is later re-enacted outwardly in symbolic form, but instead affirm that there is ONE baptism, and that it is both inward and outward, for this is the ontology of the incarnation, yes? We enter the Church as new-born babes, freshly illumined and sealed in the Holy Spirit, just as Hebrews 6:4-6 describes, and in the flesh, and it is our job to then transform ourselves in the grace of God into the likeness of the image in which God created us. And this by repentance, and calling on the name of the Lord... Within the communion of the saints, the Holy Ones, who have gone before and prepared the way for us, just as Christ did for them, and thereby for us all...

> If it is absolutely necessary, then someone else must be involved with our salvation other than us and God ( the one who does the baptism) thus, no longer making it personal. Or can we baptize ourselves?

Well, in the ancient Church, it IS absolutely necessary to be baptized into the Body of Christ. No one can baptize themselves. No one in the Bible ever did - Not even Christ...

It is personal, and it is communal, for it is the communion of the faithful in Christ that baptizes the catechumen into their communion, and this is Christ's Holy Church, the ground and pillar of truth...

There is no self-baptism...

geo

Bill the Cat

March 3rd 2003, 06:41 PM

I'm sorry, but I disagree with your baptismal regeneration theology. You said:

"So that No, we do not affirm some inward baptism that is later re-enacted outwardly in symbolic form, but instead affirm that there is ONE baptism, and that it is both inward and outward, for this is the ontology of the incarnation, yes?"

Notice the text here:
Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Notice John the Baptist baptized in Water, but Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

So Jesus' baptism was not one of water at all. And if there is but ONE baptism, is it John's (water) or Jesus' (Holy Spirit) ?

You also said:

"Well, in the ancient Church, it IS absolutely necessary to be baptized into the Body of Christ. No one can baptize themselves. No one in the Bible ever did - Not even Christ..."

I looked at some early Church Fathers' writing and came across Polycarp. Look at the condition of the promise at the end:

The Epistle of Polycarp to the Phillippians says
5:4 For if we be well pleasing unto Him in this present world, we shall receive the future world also, according as He promised us to raise us from the dead, and that if we conduct ourselves worthily of Him {we shall also reign with Him,} if indeed we have faith.

It spells out Faith here, not baptism. Baptism is an appeal for to a clear conscience before God.

Albert Barnes atates on 1 Pet 3:21
" that there was an examination among the early Christians when a candidate was about to be baptized, and of course such an examination is proper now. Whatever was the ground of the examination, it related to that which existed before the baptism was administered. It was not expected that it should be accomplished by the baptism. There is, therefore, implied evidence here that there was no reliance placed on that ordinance to produce that which constituted the “answer of a good conscience;” in other words, that it was not supposed to have an efficacy to produce that of itself, and was not a converting or regenerating ordinance."

Note he says Baptism was not the converting experience nor the regenerating factor

The Geneva Bible Commentary says on the same verse:
" for the preservation of Noah in the waters, was a figure of our baptism, not as though the material water of baptism shows us, as those waters which bare up the ark saved Noah, but because Christ with his inward virtue, which the outward baptism shadows, preserves us being washed, so that we may call upon God with a good conscience"

Note the water was not what saved Noah, but the Ark was and it was a type of Christ.

For me the toughie is that Christ came to free us from a legalistic obedience to rituals, so to make Baptism a requirement would be putting us back under the chains of law.

Freak

March 3rd 2003, 07:09 PM

03-03-2003 @ 06:04 PM
George Blaisdell:

Freak writes:

> George--

> You said incorrectly:

> "...eternal life is conditional."

> Conditional upon what?

It is conditional upon God's grace and our living faithful lives.

> It appears your teaching righteounsess by good works not through Christ.

I would suggest you get fresh glasses, because the ones you are seeing through are twisting my words.

You are clearly wanting ONLY God to have anything to do with salvation - And if eternal life is the relationship of unity we have in knowing the one true God, which is an ontological relationship, and not merely an epistemic one, then our participation is essential, yet only God saves. Why is that so hard? Why are you so gun-shy of Christian ethics, and the consequences of a Christian's unfaithfulness? Is it really so hard to acknowledge that our living faithless lives will result in our loss of salvation?

geo

George, with all due respect, you have a warped view of salvation and of God.

God's Word tell us:

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation

Note: Saved from God's wrath through Him.

My friend, with Jesus we are forever saved "from God's wrath"--rest in this promise.

God's Word also tells us we are guaranteed an inheritance:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

Note the word used: Guaranteeing!

Instead of trying to earn God's favor rest in His eternal promises. For remember you are complete in Christ (see Colossians 2:10).

Arminian

March 3rd 2003, 08:19 PM

Freak,

The Son of God was quite clear. He tells us:

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Eternal life is a life where there will be no condemnation but a life where one has "crossed over from death to life." That looks like it's eternal to me. Secure in His promise.

Thanks for making my point. He who BELIEVES has eternal life. He who no longer believes does not. That's been my point from the beginning. But you can't address my entire post.

Rdr. Arsenios

March 3rd 2003, 10:53 PM

Bill the Cat writes:

> I'm sorry, but I disagree with your baptismal regeneration theology.

Wouldn't be no discussion group if we all agreed!

> You said:

>> "So that No, we do not affirm some inward baptism that is later re-enacted outwardly in symbolic form, but instead affirm that there is ONE baptism, and that it is both inward and outward, for this is the ontology of the incarnation, yes?"

> Notice the text here:
Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

You are, of course, right... There is one baptism for the remission of sins, that of water, and another with the Holy Spirit, which in the ancient Church is given after the immersions, and is called 'chrismation', conferring the seal of the Holy Spirit, and is an annointing with consecratiing oil [Christing].

In Hebrews 6:4 it lists:
6:4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened"

e.g. Baptized in water

"and have tasted of the heavenly gift",

e.g. Partaken of communion...

> and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit",

e.g. Were annointed in the holy chrism of the Church, the baptism into the Holy Spirit...

> Notice John the Baptist baptized in Water, but Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

Exactly so - I spoke without precision... And the ancient Church baptizes in both...

> So Jesus' baptism was not one of water at all.

You mean when John the Baptist baptized Christ? That was water, and by that baptism, the waters themselves were elevated in their regenerative power in Christ...

Jesus' baptism is given in His body, the Church...

> And if there is but ONE baptism, is it John's (water) or Jesus' (Holy Spirit) ?

Both! There is but one unto the remission of sins, and another unto the Holy Spirit, but these are both, within the ancient Church, simultaneous with respect to ontology and ritual, although sequential with respect to each other. That was the issue, whether we separate the spiritual ontology from the ritual one, and the answer is we do not...

> You also said:

>> "Well, in the ancient Church, it IS absolutely necessary to be baptized into the Body of Christ. No one can baptize themselves. No one in the Bible ever did - Not even Christ..."

> I looked at some early Church Fathers' writing and came across Polycarp. Look at the condition of the promise at the end:

> The Epistle of Polycarp to the Phillippians says
5:4 For if we be well pleasing unto Him in this present world, we shall receive the future world also, according as He promised us to raise us from the dead, and that if we conduct ourselves worthily of Him {we shall also reign with Him,} if indeed we have faith.

> It spells out Faith here, not baptism.

yup...

> Baptism is an appeal for to a clear conscience before God.

You got that out of this quote from Polycarp? I missed it...

> Albert Barnes states on 1 Pet 3:21
" that there was an examination among the early Christians when a candidate was about to be baptized, and of course such an examination is proper now. Whatever was the ground of the examination, it related to that which existed before the baptism was administered.

The "examination" is one's life confession, in preparation for one's exit fron the world, renunciation of Satan, turning toward and embracing Christ, and committing oneself to God - Following this are the exorcisms of the Church, and the immersions in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. What emerges from those waters is a new-born in Christ...

> It was not expected that it should be accomplished by the baptism. There is, therefore, implied evidence here that there was no reliance placed on that ordinance to produce that which constituted the “answer of a good conscience;” in other words, that it was not supposed to have an efficacy to produce that of itself, and was not a converting or regenerating ordinance."

> Note he says Baptism was not the converting experience nor the regenerating factor

Barnes is mistaken in this... If you want to know the meaning of the mysteries of the ancient Church, the best source for finding out is the ancient Church - The rubrics for baptism are awesome...

> The Geneva Bible Commentary says on the same verse:
" for the preservation of Noah in the waters, was a figure of our baptism, not as though the material water of baptism shows us, as those waters which bare up the ark saved Noah, but because Christ with his inward virtue, which the outward baptism shadows, preserves us being washed, so that we may call upon God with a good conscience"

Well, that is the modern, western view, or more precisely one of several of them, and they all differ from the understanding of the ancient Church, which has not changed since Paul... Baptism is real, not merely symbolics...

Note the water was not what saved Noah, but the Ark was and it was a type of Christ.

> For me the toughie is that Christ came to free us from a legalistic obedience to rituals, so to make Baptism a requirement would be putting us back under the chains of law.

Well, we start out in slavery to the world, and convert from that to freedom in Christ, yet that freedom is attained in a discipleship that turns from the world, and shames the demons that would re-enslave us to seeking of pleasure and avoiding of pain, such that we willfully endure agony, and willfully avoid pleasure, that we should find tribulation in the world, yet peace and freedom in Christ, a peace that is provably not of the world, that passes all human [worldly and fleshly] understanding.

So that your fear of obedience to Christ as instituted in His Holy Body, the Church, is misplaced, for Paul often prefaces his epistles with a self-title as "a slave of Christ", a "servant of Christ" etc. Freedom in Christ is not freedom from discipleship in His Church, which is the pillar and ground of truth... And ANY blowhard can "claim" Christ, but the field is narrowed considerably when pleasure and pain are removed from the scene, and then reversed to the shame of the powers of the earth, the rulers of the air... Who will try to make us suffer our way vack to our previous discipleship of slavery to seeking pleasure and avoiding pain...

Paul rejoices in his sufferings for Christ... Claiming that by them he is making up for the deficiences of the sufferings of Christ in the flesh, all to the betterment of his spiritual children. ["Ye have many teachers, but few FATHERS"... A father suffers for his children...]

geo

Rdr. Arsenios

March 3rd 2003, 11:20 PM

Freak writes:

> From George--

> "...eternal life is conditional... upon God's grace and our living faithful lives."

> George, with all due respect, you have a warped view of salvation and of God.

I'm going to leave it here, Freak -

Thank-you for putting up with me, and for your forgiveness of my misdeed...

Please pray for me...

geo

Freak

March 4th 2003, 11:35 AM

03-04-2003 @ 03:20 AM
George Blaisdell:

Freak writes:

> From George--

> "...eternal life is conditional... upon God's grace and our living faithful lives."

> George, with all due respect, you have a warped view of salvation and of God.

I'm going to leave it here, Freak -

Thank-you for putting up with me, and for your forgiveness of my misdeed...

Please pray for me...

geo

I will. Please know I do forgive you. No reason to carry all that guilt around my friend.

Rdr. Arsenios

March 4th 2003, 12:09 PM

Jay writes:

>> Please pray for me

> I will.

Thank-you...

> Please know I do forgive you.

Indeed I do...

> No reason to carry all that guilt around my friend.

Especially when God forgives all.

And yet the blessing of God upon human forgiveness accrues much more to the human forgiver than to the one forgiven, yes?

May God continue to richly bless you...

geo

Apollos

March 6th 2003, 01:27 AM

Regarding 1 Peter 3:20-21...

I once concluded that Peter was saying that water baptism is the "like figure" of the flood waters that destroyed the world in the days of Noah (verse 20). This was a logical conclusion to draw since both verses are talking about "water"- the water of the flood and the water of baptism. Although this interpretation certainly does no harm to the truth about baptism, I am no longer convinced that this is what Peter had in mind. In order for you to see where I’m going, let me lay the two verses before you:

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." - 1Peter 3:20-21

Although Peter uses the word "figure" in this passage, he doesn't call baptism a figure of anything. Rather, he says that the salvation of Noah and his family was a figure of our salvation.

How so? Let me set these two verses side by side for comparison. I think it would be instructive to reduce verse 20 (the figure) and verse 21 (the substance) to their basic elements and set them side by side to see what Peter is saying.

1 Pet. 3:20 – The Figure or “Type”
- in the ark
-eight souls were saved
- by water.

1 Pet. 3:21 – The Substance or “Anti-type”
- even baptism
- now saves us
- by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Both verses speak of "salvation." Noah was “saved” from the wickedness that was in the world when the world was destroyed by water. He was “saved by water,” but this salvation was only effective because he and his family were "in the ark." If you will carefully examine the comparison I think it is hard to miss that the ark is used as a "Type" of baptism by Peter, and the "water" is a "Type" of the resurrection of Christ. Peter tells us that Noah was saved "by water" and he compares this (as a figure/type) to our salvation which is "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

The word "by" that Peter uses ("by water," v20, and "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ”, v21) is from the Greek word dia. According to Strong's Lexicon, the word dia is "a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act." This particular word is used to denote the medium or agent through which or through whom some defined action occurs.

We are saved "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." That is, the resurrection of Christ is the medium through which God saves us, just as water was the medium through which Noah was saved from the wicked world around him. But just as Noah could not be saved by the flood waters alone if he was outside the ark, so also we cannot be saved by the resurrection of Christ alone, outside of baptism.

Noah had to be "in the ark" to be saved by the flood waters… We have to be "in baptism" to be saved by the resurrection of Christ.

This interpretation of the passage directly connects our salvation to the resurrection of Christ, which is exactly where it belongs. Just as the ark was the means appointed by God to carry Noah through the flood waters, to be saved on the other side, so baptism is the means appointed by God to carry us through the resurrection of Christ, to be saved on the other side.

WATER is the medium God has chosen through which man appropriates salvation. Baptism doth also now save you!

1 Peter 3:20 – Type (Figure)

-Ark – Commanded/Blessings received by obedience/Place of salvation
-Salvation – “souls brought safely through water”
-Water (Flood) – Destroyed (washed away) the sinfulness of the world – made salvation possible – world buried by water
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1 Peter 3:21 – Antitype (Substance)

-Baptism (into Christ) - Commanded/Blessings received by obedience/Place of salvation
-Now saves us – our soul is “brought safely through water”
-Resurrection* of Christ – Destroys (washes away) all our earthly sins – makes salvation possible (*synecdoche for D/B/R of Christ ??) – We are buried in water

Bill the Cat

March 6th 2003, 02:19 PM

Very interesting exegesis.
I however see the opposite.

You wrote:
1 Pet. 3:20 – The Figure or “Type”
- in the ark
-eight souls were saved
- by water.

1 Pet. 3:21 – The Substance or “Anti-type”
- even baptism
- now saves us
- by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Both verses speak of "salvation." Noah was “saved” from the wickedness that was in the world when the world was destroyed by water. He was “saved by water,” but this salvation was only effective because he and his family were "in the ark." If you will carefully examine the comparison I think it is hard to miss that the ark is used as a "Type" of baptism by Peter,

### The Ark was a type of Christ, not the water of Baptism. It has a chiastic structure for comparison.

and the "water" is a "Type" of the resurrection of Christ.

### Water is the type for Baptism.

Peter tells us that Noah was saved "by water" and he compares this (as a figure/type) to our salvation which is "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

### I think it is important to understand the 2 occurrances side by side in comparison.

In the Flood, God destroyed the sin in the world. Sin was left in the water to die. Noah and his family NEVER TOUCHED the water. What saved their life was the fact that they were inside the Ark BEFORE the rain started. And when the water dried up, the world was new and clean.

Comparing to Jesus
In Jesus, God destroyed the sting of sin. It was left in the grave to die. What saves us now is being in our Ark (Jesus Christ) And when the judgement of God is over, we will be new and clean.

So the water represented judgement on Noah's world just as Jesus' death represents God's judgement on sin. The Ark was a place of refuge for Noah and his family just as Jesus is our refuge. It may not fit perfectly with what Peter was trying to prove, but it makes sense to compare the two incidents.

To boil it down, Baptism in my summation was what happened to the world, not Noah's family. The world was cleansed from sin, and the only thing that saved Noah's life was the fact that he wasn't in the water without the protection of the Ark. Baptism would be useless if we were not FIRST protected by our Ark.
Baptism cleanses our consciences but without the resurrection of Jesus, and us being in Him already, we would die in our sin as the world of Noah did.

Freak

March 6th 2003, 08:35 PM

Bill, some excellent points.

As I have stated on many occassions, justification occurs when one places their faith in Christ (see Romans 5:1). Water cannot save anyone but Jesus can.

Apollos

March 7th 2003, 01:08 AM

BtC –

Your reply was interesting, although I find that it does not follow the passage as Peter explained things. The passage is parallel, not “chiastic” (chiasmatic??) as you assert.

Peter tells us that Noah was saved in the ark and then states… “baptism now saves you”.
The ark, of necessity of comparison, is the type (as Peter states) of water baptism (the anti-type).

You said that Noah was “saved by water”, BUT… You desire to qualify what Peter said about Noah’s “salvation”. I am sorry, but this you cannot do!
### The Ark was a type of Christ, not the water of Baptism.
Can you point this out from this passage??

### Water is the type for Baptism.Not according to Peter. Peter tells us what “saves”. First he states it was then the ark, then he states it is NOW baptism!

BUT if you will insist, then it must, as you later said in your post… “The world was cleansed from sin…” – mean that water baptism now cleanes us from sin. Is this what you want to say ???

So the water represented judgement on Noah's world…Not so! God had already judged the world. The water of destruction was the sentence.

### I think it is important to understand the 2 occurrances side by side in comparison.Doesn’t this line dispose of your “chiastic” claims ???

There are many other points you attempted to make that Peter did not make in this passage. So to “boil it down” for me…

When Noah by faith submitted to obediently build the ark unto the “saving” of his house, he eventually ended up in the place of salvation God had chosen for Noah to be in. This is the TYPE as depicted by Peter.

When sinners today by faith submit obediently to being baptized in water (which Peter calls the “answer of a good conscience”), the one doing so ends up in the place of salvation God has chosen for him to be in! This is the ANTI-TYPE as depicted by Peter.

With the TYPE - the ark is the MEANS whereby salvation is obtained.

With the ANTI-TYPE - water baptism is the MEANS whereby salvation is obtained.

Please note that God chose the MEANS in both situations to obtain the salvation He offered by His grace. (“Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.”)
Both situations required faithful OBEDIENCE to His command to be successful !!

This is why Peter could say…

Baptism doth also now save you.” :thumb:

Apollos

March 7th 2003, 01:14 AM

Freak -

As I have stated on many occassions, justification occurs when one places their faith in Christ...

I am glad to see that you have finally admitted that a man must DO SOMETHING in order to obtain his salvation from God.

:yipee:

Rdr. Arsenios

March 7th 2003, 11:38 AM

Apollos writes:

With the TYPE - the ark is the MEANS whereby salvation is obtained.

With the ANTI-TYPE - water baptism is the MEANS whereby salvation is obtained.

Interestingly, in the Orthodox tradition, when baptism is not done in a river or an outdoor font, it is done in the Nave of the Church...

Nave... The Ark was a naval vessel, and my belly button is in my navel, and Jonah was in the nave of the whale, in it's belly, and the Children of God were saved from destruction by Pharoah when they safely passed through water that killed the legions of Pharoah, and these have their antitype in our demonic sins that pursue us unto our destruction...

The anti-type, or better understood in English, the 'reality' to which the Ark points is the Church, for whereas before the Ark rose to the top of the destroying waters and saved the economia [household] of Noah from them, so also does the Church, except that now the Church has the waters that destroy the sinfulness of the world under Her command, rather than outside of Her...

And I think you are both right, for the Church baptizes, and the Church is the Body of Christ, Who is Her Head, hence the Sacramental Mystery of Baptism, by effecting out death to the world, and our spiritual rebirth into Christ, indeed saves us, and then comes the contest set before us, that we should each be one who is conquering [Rev 3:12] the sinning that we find in ourselves as we enter the struggle against our own sinfulness in this newly baptized purity of heart.

Out priest likes to tell the newly about to be baptized: "You are about to throw a hand grenade into the camp of the enemy, so do not expect that he will throw you back marshmallows and snickers..." Yet victory is now assured, if only we persevere to the end, and we will be ones conquering, for if Christ is for us, who can stand against?

We are our own worst enemy in this struggle against demonic powers, for once baptized in water for the remission of sins, and in the Holy Spirit in the annointing of the Holy Oil, we only need to persevere to be gaining victory after victory, to be conquering the enemy and hater of mankind... Yet persevere we must, for our enemy is implacable, and has thousands of years experience against us. When the Israelites crossed over the Jordan and into the Promised Land, [another anti-type of baptism] it was there that they met and had to face the Giants, whom they feared to combat... Yet David came forth with a sling and a pebble and great faith, and Goliath in his boasting fell...

Let us not boast...

George Blaisdell died last Wednesday of two days ago, and out of the waters in the Nave of the ancient Orthodox Church came forth a new babe in Christ... After 4 years of struggle, I have finally, in my 58th year of a living death upon this earth, become a babe in Christ...

Glory to God!

geo

Bill the Cat

March 7th 2003, 02:24 PM

So, George, regardless of your struggles to conform to the life of Christ, if you would have passed away before your baptism, would you have been damned?? If your answer is yes, I totally disagree. From what I've read, Baptism is the New Covenant replacement for Old Covenant Circumcision. And we all know what value circumcision is. :smile: If you trusted that Jesus Christ was the ONLY way to the Father and spent your time trying to conform your life to Him, then you have Life. John 3:16 makes it abundantly clear.

IS the performance of the Baptism ritual consistent from John the Baptist? I believe it is, except the words repeated. So if Baptism was for the remittance of sin, why was Jesus baptized?

I read an article a few years ago that clarified it for me.

At the Baptismal scene, Jesus went through the process to become the High Priest. John the Baptist was of the line of Levi. In order for Jesus to become THE high priest, He had to be ceremonially washed (which His baptism accomplished) and anointed with Oil (a type of the Holy Spirit which descended on Him after His washing)

Exo 40:12 "Then you shall bring Aaron and his sons to the doorway of the tent of meeting and wash them with water.
Exo 40:13 "You shall put the holy garments on Aaron and anoint him and consecrate him, that he may minister as a priest to Me.

So if we follow Jesus in his baptism, we are being anointed as priests as well.

Freak

March 7th 2003, 05:30 PM

03-07-2003 @ 05:14 AM
Apollos:

Freak -

I am glad to see that you have finally admitted that a man must DO SOMETHING in order to obtain his salvation from God.

:yipee:

Apollos, my good friend,--

Re-read:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

What part of "not from yourselves" do you have trouble understanding?

Apollos

March 8th 2003, 04:54 PM

Freak -

As I have stated on many occassions, justification occurs when one places their faith in Christ...

LOL - What part of YOUR statement did YOU not understand !!
:dunce:

(I did not realize that when you write Romans 5:1, that you are really meaning Ephesians chapter 2.... LOL !!!)

Too funny !!

Apollos

March 8th 2003, 04:57 PM

Let us now read what Jesus has to say in Matthew 18 in reference to servants and their Master…

Matthew 18:23-35 -

23 - Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.
24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him…

The debt is sin, and ten thousand talents is a large amount, more than likely an unpayable amount.

25 - Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

He could not pay the debt, even selling everything he had would not make restitution.

26 - The servant fell on his knees before him. `Be patient with me,' he begged, `and I will pay back everything.

He begged for forgiveness from his master- so that the master would not sell him to be a slave forever to another master.

27 - The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

By the master's grace the servant's debt was forgiven, and the servant’s relationship with the Master was restored !!

28 - But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. `Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.

In the course of the man's life, others had sinned against him in the same way for which he himself had been forgiven. A hundred denarii however is a lot less – a payable amount.

29 - His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, `Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.

This man begged for mercy and asked for forgiveness from the man in the same way that he had earlier asked for forgiveness from his master and had received it.

30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt.

But he would not forgive his brother. He judged the other man as deserving prison until he should repay the debt.

31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 "Then the master called the servant in. `You wicked servant,' he said, `I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.

33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?'

34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

The servant, who was once redeemed - is now to be condemned… forever !!!

The master judged the man in the very same way that that the man judged his brother. In this case, the man had demanded repayment. The debts of sin the man owed to the master, if you recall, could not be repayed.

The conclusion is grim. This situation (torture) doesn't sound like heaven to me, nor does this man seem "saved" anymore. His sins were previously forgiven, but the servant appears to have disqualified himself!!!

35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

PuritanD

March 9th 2003, 02:26 AM

My apologies if I repeat what has been previously stated in this thread. I read the first seven pages and had to stop, then read the last page.

Hats off to Jaltus and Cadet in holding to a thorough Arminian view that if one has the freedom to choose Christ he must have the freedome to undo the choice. I have run into too many "baptists" who like to argue that I have a choice to be saved but am unable to undo such a choice. It is illogical and their system of thought crumbles.

In the debate on whether one can loose their salvation, it has been said that we have the power to snatch ourselves out of Jesus hand, which I admit is pretty powerful stuff but has to be argued by Arminians to maintain their logic.

My question is this, "Can we demonstrated Biblically when God's will has been thwarted, ever?" I am not looking for an OV response but an Arminian one.

Jonah got the raw deal if it is true. His actions indicated that he had no desire to go to Ninevah and if free will is true. God would have to have a hands off aproach and look to another prophet to fulfill His desire. But, as we all know, Jonah went to Ninevah. Another example is Balaam. Did he have the free will to annouce a curse on Israel as Balak paid him to do? It does look as if the answer is no.

These are just two examples that I have been unable to explain from an Arminian position for the libertarian free will and ability to "overcome" God's will.

Any takers!!!

Arminian

March 9th 2003, 07:06 AM

Luke 7
30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)

Acts 7
51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

1 Thessalonians 5:19
Quench not the Spirit.

1 Tim 2
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wills all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Rdr. Arsenios

March 10th 2003, 11:49 AM

Bill the Cat:[/i] writes:

So, George, regardless of your struggles to conform to the life of Christ, if you would have passed away before your baptism, would you have been damned?? If your answer is yes, I totally disagree.

Bill - It has now been 5 days since baptism, and I can tell you that I struggled greatly prior to it to conform myself to life in Christ, and yet did not have it. The difference from before and after is utter and profound, speaking personally, and as well, speaking from those who have gone before me into the sanctifying waters of the baptism of the Church - It is one of those things that I would really be at a loss to explain to "pre-baptismal George", for no matter how many words come forth, they are falling on an unbaptized person, so that that person's understanding can only be surmisive and speculative... That was my experience of understanding that was prior to, versus what is now after, baptism... All I knew going in was that I felt unclean, and now I feel clean, and have the job of keeping clean in Christ by His Holy Grace, confessing my current sins, living in deep repentance from them, receiving forgiveness, praying and fasting and calling on the name of the Lord, just as the Bible describes...

Now you asked "What if I had died prior to being baptized? Would I have been eternally damned?" And the answer is "I don't know." I am but a newborn babe in Christ, and such a pronouncement on my part would be arrogant and damning foolishness.

> From what I've read, Baptism is the New Covenant replacement for Old Covenant Circumcision.

In Orthodoxy, it is the entry of the penitent into the mystery of the faith given once for all to the apostles of the Church, and his sealing therein in the Holy Spirit... We find no talk of replacement of Old Covenants with New ones - If you wish to regard Christ as the new covenant, then I suppose you could talk about Christ as Moses' replacement... But such a discussion would seem to have but little benefit, except to engender the egotism of the disputants in the controversies of theorizing... I sure do not pretend expertise...

> And we all know what value circumcision is. :smile:

The circumsicion of the divided and scattered heart, the heart that prefers good AND evil to God, is a great value indeed... It is a spiritual circumcision...

> If you trusted that Jesus Christ was the ONLY way to the Father and spent your time trying to conform your life to Him, then you have Life.

Christ IS the only way to the father, that is a given, lest we make the incarnation optional from the point of view of human salvation. The problem arises when we then take that fact and stand forth as an individual trying to conform his or her life to Christ. I had done that for years, and the result was predictably non-salvific in terms of the life I lived in that effort. It was not until I was conceived in the pure and virginal womb of the Mother that is the Bride of Christ, that is indeed His own body, of which He is the Head, that I made any headway at all, and it was not until I actually died in the waters of baptism into Christ's death on the Cross, and was reborn into His holy body, the Church, that I began to get a small clue as to what is needful for salvation. The richness of grace surrounding the newly baptized in Christ is an awesome and humbling thing - The Church loves Her newborns!

So what I am eventually getting around to saying is that one does not have Life, as you write, in trying to self-conform oneself to Christ. One has Life in Christ, and the way into Life in Christ is baptism and annointing in Christ's Body, and that Body is His one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, the pillar and ground of truth, and against which the gates of hell shall not prevail...

> John 3:16 makes it abundantly clear.

Yes, "Whosoever believing in Him..." And this belief meant discipleship unto entry into his body, the Church.

Why did not the risen Christ heal Saul of his blindness, but instead sent him to Ananias for healing?

And did not Saul become Paul, entering the Church and receiving his new baptismal name? Yes, Christ called Saul to become Paul IN Christ's Church. But it was the Church, via Ananias, that healed his blindness, and entered him into Christ.

Saul was persecuting Christians, persecuting the Church, and yet Christ asked him NOT "Saul - Why are you persecuting these Christians and their churches?" No, He asked "Why are you persecuting ME?" He did not send Saul AWAY to Ananias for healing, but like the Good Samaritan, sent him to to the Inn, and paid the innkeeper, Ananias, for whatever healing was needed... And the scales were washed from Saul's blinded eyes... And he discovered that he had been blind all along, and what little sight he had left, even this was taken away...

Until the regenerational lavers of the waters of baptism into the Body of Christ, His Holy Church, we are all blind, and cannot know what is within Her, for those within are "hidden in Christ", and their communion in Christ is reflective of the communion that even God is, Who is One God, a *communion* of three hypostases...

So that the "Me alone with Jesus alone in faith alone [etc]" idea has no chance whatsoever... We are saved in communion... Even into communion...

> IS the performance of the Baptism ritual consistent from John the Baptist? I believe it is, except the words repeated. So if Baptism was for the remittance of sin, why was Jesus baptized?

"To fulfill all Righteousness." [Matt. 3] The waters of baptism have never been the same after Christ's entry into them, yes? Such was His blessing unto the fulfillment of all righteousness... The waters of baptism are now, since this, capable of doing what they could not do before...
Because Christ entered them...
And changed them forever...
And the Holy Spirit abides...

So if we follow Jesus in his baptism, we are being anointed as priests as well.

We follow Him unto His suffering on the Cross and His death, shedding our treasure of mortal life, indeed hating it, and putting on the robes of immortality...

If you seek baptism so you can call yourself a priest, you will likely have a long term of discipleship in my Church, to help you past that issue...

geo-the-newborn...

Freak

March 10th 2003, 12:38 PM

George--

Please read what the apostle Paul declared in Second Corinthinas 5:17:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Note: In Christ not in the waters. Jesus is what saves you--not something He created.

Rdr. Arsenios

March 10th 2003, 03:16 PM

Freak notes:

George--

> Please read what the apostle Paul declared in Second Corinthinas 5:17:

> Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Note: "In Christ" not "in the waters". Jesus is what saves you--not something He created.

Indeed we are a new creation in Christ, Jay - That has never been in question.

The issue is that of entry into Christ, and that entry, as Christ has commanded, is through baptism, as it has been from the beginnings. He instituted the Church that baptizes us into Him in the communion of one another in Him, Who is in communion with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Nowhere in the Bible, not even with Saul/Paul, do we find salvation outside the Church, nor entry into the Church outside of baptism... After his encounter with the risen Christ on the road to Damascus, Saul was taken to Ananias for his healing and his entry into the Church... And then became Paul... Through baptism... Into Christ...

geo

Freak

March 14th 2003, 06:25 PM

03-10-2003 @ 07:16 PM
George Blaisdell:

Indeed we are a new creation in Christ, Jay - That has never been in question.

The issue is that of entry into Christ, and that entry, as Christ has commanded, is through baptism, as it has been from the beginnings. He instituted the Church that baptizes us into Him in the communion of one another in Him, Who is in communion with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Nowhere in the Bible, not even with Saul/Paul, do we find salvation outside the Church, nor entry into the Church outside of baptism... After his encounter with the risen Christ on the road to Damascus, Saul was taken to Ananias for his healing and his entry into the Church... And then became Paul... Through baptism... Into Christ...

geo

Amazingly, you say George: "...and that entry, as Christ has commanded, is through baptism."

God's Word tells us that whoever enters Jesus finds life and is saved (see John 10:9). Looks like once again George you promote a belief that is outside the realms of orthodoxy.

Rdr. Arsenios

March 14th 2003, 11:11 PM

Freak:

Amazingly, you say George: "...and that entry, as Christ has commanded, is through baptism."

God's Word tells us that whoever enters Jesus finds life and is saved (see John 10:9). Looks like once again George you promote a belief that is outside the realms of orthodoxy.

Mt 28:19 - "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,"

And I agree with you, when one enters Christ one finds life and is being saved from sin and death...

geo

Freak

March 15th 2003, 12:24 AM

Today @ 03:11 AM
George Blaisdell:

Mt 28:19 - "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,"

And I agree with you, when one enters Christ one finds life and is being saved from sin and death...

geo

Great! Finally!

:yipee:

Rdr. Arsenios

March 15th 2003, 12:34 AM

Freak:

Great! Finally!

:yipee:

O garsh, Jay -

'Twarn't nuttin!

:love:

btw - You don't buy into any of that "dry baptism" stuff, do you?

geo

Apollos

March 15th 2003, 12:35 AM

George -

I have appreciated your posts.

Remind me to tell Freak that John 10:9 does NOT tell us the means of entry into Christ. (Freak can't even find the door.)

But Galatians 3:27 does !!! We are baptized INTO Christ !!

Water baptism is the means selected by God through which man appropriates the salvation that God offers man through His grace.

Rdr. Arsenios

March 15th 2003, 11:27 AM

Apollos:[/i] writes:

> George -

> I have appreciated your posts.

I read yours too - Thanks for the suport...

Remind me to tell Freak that John 10:9 does NOT tell us the means of entry into Christ.

It tells us that we must enter through the Door... But proof-texting to prove one's point to another seems to me such a sacrilege...

> (Freak can't even find the door.)

I have this huge log jammed into both my eyes and can't see enough to criticise my brother... Nor is Jay my servant to criticise, but serves the Lord as best he can, and I doubtless am a very poor second to him in God's eyes...

> But Galatians 3:27 does !!! We are baptized INTO Christ !!

"For as many of you as were baptised into [eis] Christ have put on [the Greek says in English transliteration "enduced" enedusasthe] Christ."

Water baptism is the means selected by God through which man appropriates the salvation that God offers man through His grace.

It is the unchallenged understanding that has come to us from the very beginnings. There has never even been a controversy about it...

And now we have this Johnny-come-lately revisionist religiosity that parades itself as knowing better than Christ's Church the meaning of the texts that were written from within it...

There's something foul afoot...

geo

Freak

March 16th 2003, 04:44 PM

George,

I think you are confused.

The Holy Scriptures tells us:

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Now, who is the author of the faith? Is it water? No! It's Jesus! Set your eyes upon Jesus instead of the water, George. Stop setting your eyes upon the water. God's Word is clear.

Rdr. Arsenios

March 17th 2003, 12:46 PM

Yesterday @ 12:44 PM
Freak:

George,

I think you are confused.

The Holy Scriptures tells us:

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Now, who is the author of the faith? Is it water? No! It's Jesus! Set your eyes upon Jesus instead of the water, George. Stop setting your eyes upon the water. God's Word is clear.

By placing your eyes on Jesus, you will see that he was baptized in the Jordan, and that we are to follow him... Christ sanctified the waters of baptism by His entry into them, thereby instituting the Christian baptism following His resurrection, when he sent out His disciples to teach and baptize [eg to evangellize]...

How on earth can you believe in keeping your eyes on Christ so as to follow Him and then NOT follow Him into baptism?

geo

Freak

March 17th 2003, 01:00 PM

Now, answer the question. Ought we fix our eyes upon the water or the author and perfector of our faith?

Rdr. Arsenios

March 17th 2003, 01:25 PM

Jay commands:

> Now, answer the question.

I have...

> Ought we fix our eyes upon the water or the author and perfector of our faith?

Yes.

The ancient Church does not fixate itself upon these kinds of false dichotomies, for they are injurious to both truth and the practice of the faith...

Having fixed our eyes upon the author and perfector of our faith, we follow Him into the waters of batism which He sanctified by His baptism... Just as He sanctified the Cross, by His bearing of it... And we are commanded to pick up our own cross, yes?

Are you arguing that we forget the cross that is ours to bear, and toss it aside along with the waters of baptism, and just fixate our eyes on Jesus and His cross, and have a Big Mack with Fries, Su-per Size?

Or do we actually have some responsibility... To actually WALK following Christ, denying our SELVES, and carrying our OWN instrument of torture unto death, our OWN cross, in repentance from our sins. Remember?: "Not yet unto BLOOD have you resisted sin..."]

geo

Freak

March 17th 2003, 06:07 PM

George--

This is my concern. You couldn't answer the question I posed: Ought we fix our eyes upon the water or the author and perfector of our faith?

You answered: Yes.

George, is Jesus God or water? It's rather simple. I'll ask you again: What is more important the person of Jesus Christ or some water?

You mentioned: The ancient Church does not fixate itself upon these kinds of false dichotomies, for they are injurious to both truth and the practice of the faith...

Yes, the ancient church made it clear George. The ancient holy church declared:

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Salvation is in the name of Jesus. Not water. Now embrace what the holy church has declared.

Rdr. Arsenios

March 17th 2003, 08:21 PM

Freak:[/i] writes:

George--

This is my concern. You couldn't answer the question I posed: Ought we fix our eyes upon the water or the author and perfector of our faith?

I answered it in the affirmative twice - We fix our eyes upon the author and perfector of our faith, and for that reason we enter the Church in the mystery of baptism... We not divide Christ from His Life, nor from his commandments. He has commanded us to be baptized, and we fix our gaze upon Him commanding us to be baptized...

> You answered: Yes.

> George, is Jesus God or water?

Are you really trying to boil this down to this question? Are we really to turn away from Christ's commandment to enter the baptismal water because Jesus is God and not water?

> It's rather simple.

Jesus Christ is God the Son incarnate, and has commanded us to be baptized in water - That is really simple - Do you disagree with Christ?

> I'll ask you again: What is more important the person of Jesus Christ or some water?

I can't believe you are fixated here, Jay... The real question is, "Do you affirm or deny Christ's commandment that we be baptized in water?"

You mentioned: The ancient Church does not fixate itself upon these kinds of false dichotomies, for they are injurious to both truth and the practice of the faith...

Yes, the ancient church made it clear George. The ancient holy church declared:

> Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Exactly...

> Salvation is in the name of Jesus.

Yes - And to be more precise, it is in the Person of Christ... The question is that of entry into the Person of Christ, and did Christ prescribe baptism for us to be entered into His Holy Body, the Church?

The answer is "Yes!"

> Not water. Now embrace what the holy church has declared. [/QUOTE]

Jay, you have a strange way of twisting my words into grist for your meatgrinder... We do not disagree on Christ being our salvation. The conversation has never had that fact in question whatsoever. The question is, and always has been, at least from my understanding, the ROLE of baptism in the life of a believer in the ancient Church - And that role has never been challenged in the history of the Church... This nutty idea of yours that in order to believe the first thousand years of Christianity you must believe in water instead of in Christ is the most bogus twisting of the truth that I have ever heard...

Are you really and truely living in the arrogance of the post-modern mindset that thinks that Christ failed, and that it is only the Protestant Reformation, some 1500 years after the fact, that actually succeeded in bringing salvation to mankind???

Tell me I'm wrong, PLEASE!

geo

Freak

March 17th 2003, 08:33 PM

George asks: Tell me I'm wrong, PLEASE!

Ok. Yes, your wrong!

Jesus made it rather clear:

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

You too can be saved, not through the created (i.e. water) but through the Creator--the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rdr. Arsenios

March 17th 2003, 09:27 PM

Freak:
You too can be saved, not through the created (i.e. water) but through the Creator--the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then you are left in your private and unscriptural opinion outside what the Church established by Christ has always taught, that baptizes believers into Christ by triple immersion in water...

As it has done from the beginnings...

And I should imagine that you have to affirm that Christ failed His mission until the Reformation came along in the wake of the Roman fiasco in the scholastic west some 1500 years after His death and resurrection. And that you thank God for finally getting it right thanks to us moderns and our descendents.

I tell ya, Jay, there is nothing like the arrogance of the post-modern west!

I offer the following without a great deal of optimism for your perusal...

Mr 1:9 -... Jesus ...was baptized by John in the Jordan

Mr 10:39 - And Jesus said unto them... "...with the baptism that I am baptized with, also shall ye be baptized."

Ac 8:38 - ...both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

No dry baptisms here, yes? And Christ baptized by his disciples, yes? And one of these was Philip, yes? And this Philip baptized the eunich in the water, yes? So that Christ baptizes in water, yes? And Christ was baptised in water, yes? And we are to be baptized in the same baptism as Christ, yes?

Why insist on the un-Biblical, and on what has never been taught by the disciples Christ sent out to teach and baptize the nations?

Amazing disagreement!

You take care, Jay...

geo

Rdr. Arsenios

March 17th 2003, 09:58 PM

More on water baptism...

Jay -

Ac 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Can you not see that the words here clearly state that the gift of the Holy Spirit, received by the believer, is to be received SUBSEQUENT to their being baptized???

geo

Freak

March 17th 2003, 11:17 PM

George my confused friend--

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Justifies those who have faith in Jesus----that my friend involves no water but simply Jesus!

Rdr. Arsenios

March 18th 2003, 12:26 AM

Freak:

> George my confused friend--

I love you too, Jay...

[Justification], my friend, involves no water but simply Jesus!

I think we have dried up this thread, Jay - Thank-you for your good heart!

:love:

geo

JesusFreakVOM

April 8th 2003, 03:52 PM

:thumb: we cant lose our salvation, but we can walk away with it. a person that says they have accepted Jesus as saviour,but the lives his life like a heathen, has a said faith rather than a real faith.

Freak

April 15th 2003, 05:50 AM

04-08-2003 @ 08:52 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=59371#post59371)
JesusFreakVOM:

:thumb: we cant lose our salvation, but we can walk away with it. a person that says they have accepted Jesus as saviour,but the lives his life like a heathen, has a said faith rather than a real faith.

Re-read Romans 8:30 and get back with me.

JesusFreakVOM

April 15th 2003, 08:46 AM

that means that GOD know who is going to come to saving faith and who is not.:read:

GrayPilgrim

April 15th 2003, 04:15 PM

Like I have said before, the issue is perserverance/preservation. One who says "Lord, Lord" but lives like there is no difference will be turned away b/c they never knew the Lord. I believe that one who is truly redeemed and regenerated cannot walk away as their nature has been so completely changed. But like I said the proof is in the pudding, unless they persevere than they were not truly regeenrate.

GP

JesusFreakVOM

April 15th 2003, 04:18 PM

a true believer will get back up after they fall down, we all fall down from time to time.:rockon:

Rdr. Arsenios

April 15th 2003, 05:05 PM

GrayPilgrim: wrote:

> Like I have said before, the issue is perserverance/preservation. One who says "Lord, Lord" but lives like there is no difference will be turned away b/c they never knew the Lord. I believe that one who is truly redeemed and regenerated cannot walk away as their nature has been so completely changed. But like I said the proof is in the pudding, unless they persevere then they were not truly regeenrate.

Raises an interesting aside, GP - Perseverence is TO THE END, yes? So that we cannot know if we are truely redeemed and/or truely regenerated UNTIL the end??

Kind of scruntches the whole idea of security, if the pre-destined cannot know until the end if they are pre-destined...

For us EO's, our security lies in our perpetual insecurity... Because it is insecurity that breeds vigilance...

geo

GrayPilgrim

April 15th 2003, 10:10 PM

George:

I had a prof who liked to call it "Eternal Vigilance". I would agree it is like Peter said:

2 Peter 1:5-11 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (Emphasis added)

Notice we are told to make are calling and election secure by evidenceing these qualities and persevering.

GP

Rdr. Arsenios

April 15th 2003, 11:56 PM

GrayPilgrim: writes:

George:

> I had a prof who liked to call it "Eternal Vigilance".

If it weren't for the fact that we constantly fall asleep at our posts, he might be right! Vigilance, of course, is an inward focus of the intellect acting in its appropriate role as attack dog, charged with attacking any thought and any image arising in the heart that is not of God, and especially those wedded to the cares and lusts of the flesh and the world and the self...

>I would agree it is like Peter said in 2 Peter 1:

3 His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue.

Notice we are called to glory AND virtue... Show me virtue with no works!

4 Thereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises, that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature,

This refers to theosis...

4c having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Hence the call to virtue...

5 And besides this, using all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge,

Notice the progression - The faith is received, and to this we are then to add virtue, and then - are you following this? - and THEN knowledge... Not at all faith, knowledge and virtue, which is the way of the world, but faith, virtue, and then knowledge... And virtue is works... And then a host of others... Then:

9 ...he that lacketh these things is blind and cannot see...

Christ heals the blind...

10 Therefore brethren, give diligence all the more to make your calling and election sure, for if ye do these things ye shall never fall.

> Notice we are told to make are calling and election secure by evidenceing these qualities and persevering.

Yes. If we DO these things, we shall never fall - And NOT: Ye were called to the elect of God and are therefore secure from falling in your salvation. Instead, we are told to NOT have such security, and instead to DO all these good spiritual things...

20 that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in olden times by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

This last in and of itself rules out sola [mia] scriptura, which has each and everyone of us privately interpreting scripture... And arguing about it... And even entering the BOXING RING on Theologyweb to fight it out, this meaning of scripture-prophesy... The truth of scripture will not be found in debating societies, but instead will be found in the pillar and ground of truth, the Church from ancient times... Even unto this day, against whom the gates of hell shall not prevail...

geo

GrayPilgrim

April 16th 2003, 12:17 AM

A friend of mine at church is a young believer. He said he got sick of reading the debates and so he know lives on a diet of the ECF. I thought you'd like that George.

JesusFreakVOM

April 16th 2003, 10:22 AM

in my humble opinion, a relevant scripture would be the one that mentions that if a tree doesnt produce fruit it is worthy of being cut down and thrown into the fire.:read:

Rdr. Arsenios

April 16th 2003, 10:39 AM

GrayPilgrim: writes:

> A friend of mine at church is a young believer. He said he got sick of reading the debates and so he know lives on a diet of the ECF.

':thumb:'

> I thought you'd like that George.

I am sitting here in a kind of helpless and gentle chuckle - Thanks...

I assume that ECF means Early Church Fathers, and Lord knows they are wonderful indeed, but when he gets a ways along with these, he will get in some really even more engrossing stuff when he simply reads the Eastern Church Fathers. They have been writing in a rich tradition for 2000 years now and counting. St. Isaac the Syrian out of Arabia, Brianchaninov [The Arena] out of Russia, Greeks galore, but most of these still in Greek, yet Father Romanides who wrote both in Greek and in English, St Seraphim of Sarov, ... If he starts reading these writers, he will find out that when he picks up a sermon book out of the western tradition, he has to really force himself to pay attention to the words, and the reading is a chore, rather than a joy, and this with the same authors that used to give him so much joy... And unless he is forced in a class to do so, he will probably NOT be able to force himself to read anything on western hermaneutics or textual criticism or exegetical studies... That stuff just all flushes away in the radiance of the writings of the Fathers, old and new. They never stopped writing, you know...

I happened to start out like a dumb bimbo with the Philokalia vol 1, and I was reading along like I knew what I was doing, and was really enjoying this guy, who so obviously knew my spiritual path, and was comfortable with the kinds of events that had led me to reading him - It was like I was sitting down at Starbucks with an old childhood friend across a cup of Jo... And when I got done, I thought "Cool!" Gee, I wonder who this new friend is? And lo and behold, he was some old monastic guy in black robes with a white beard who spoke Greek and wrote in it in the 5th Century...

And I was hooked!

I am now currently reading Fr. Seraphim Rose's translation of St. Nichodemus of the Holy Mountain's work on Saints Barsanuphius and John, Guidance toward Spiritual Life. These two saints were both monks of Gaza, in Palestine, in the 6th Century, and theirs is very much a work of the alphabet of Christian life, leaving the higher rungs to others - Hence their value to me!

The difference between the eastern Fathers and the western arguments is reflected in reverse in their respective diets, for in the west, we eat McDonalds hamburgers, stuffed turkey with all the trimmings, roast beef and prime rib - But these old guys ate hard bread with sometimes some olive oil poured out upon it, with some raw vegetables and occassional fruit, and these in portions that would seem like starvation fare to our opulence...

One is turned away from, and the other toward, the world... And their output differs accordingly... I never tire of reading the Fathers... Their fare is as rich as their diet is spare...

Yor friend is right to avoid arguments...

geo

Wesley's son

April 17th 2003, 04:01 PM

02-04-2003 @ 08:48 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=8426#post8426)
GrayPilgrim:

Wesley's description of it was very muddled and contradicotry, so where he stood on it exactly is a hard thing to ascertain. Finney and his group leading to the Holiness Movements (e.g. Nazarene's) are legitmately following in Wesley's wake and do not deviate from his as much is often portrayed by other Wesleyans. At least that is the picture I have taken from my readings (I took a course of Methodist polity last year where I researched this topic to some extent.)

GP

Getting into the game late...

On behalf of Wesley I gotta represent yo!

A Plain Account of Christian Perfection is helpful in understanding his position.

Every Christian should read it, the implications will rock your world:rockon:

GrayPilgrim

April 18th 2003, 01:08 AM

A Plain Account of Christian Perfection is helpful in ascertaining his position only to an extent. The problem was that in his sermons and letters he equivocated qquite a bit on the issue. SO while I think that Finney followed Wesley's positon to its logical conclusion, I don't think Wesley went there. So I put Wesley w/in orthodoxy, but think Finney was heterodox.

GP

Wesley's son

April 18th 2003, 01:07 PM

Today @ 01:08 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=71743#post71743)
GrayPilgrim:

A Plain Account of Christian Perfection is helpful in ascertaining his position only to an extent. The problem was that in his sermons and letters he equivocated qquite a bit on the issue. SO while I think that Finney followed Wesley's positon to its logical conclusion, I don't think Wesley went there. So I put Wesley w/in orthodoxy, but think Finney was heterodox.

GP

I did not know that...

In what manner was Finney heterodoxical?

Freak

April 28th 2003, 04:26 PM

04-15-2003 @ 09:18 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=68066#post68066)
JesusFreakVOM:

a true believer will get back up after they fall down, we all fall down from time to time.:rockon:

True but the believer as a result will never lose their salvation.

Ethos

May 3rd 2003, 02:46 AM

Faith without action is dead...

JesusFreakVOM

May 4th 2003, 09:27 AM

a tree will be known by its fruits. which is far different from the messages from the lds false prophets, why say, that our good works help attain us a place in the celestial kingdom. theres only 1 heaven and 1 hell. Practising a religion that teaches "
GODHood" is a good way to end up the the latter of the 2. Yes, truth matters and people shouldnt be nonchalant about it.

Rdr. Arsenios

May 19th 2003, 11:30 AM

Jaltus:
>Where in scripture does God declare He has two wills?

Mt 26:42 - He went away again the second time and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if this cup may not pass away from Me, unless I drink it, Thy will be done."

Christ has a human and a divine will, in right relationship, as we will have in Him. One person, two wills, without confusion, one human and one divine will, one God in three Persons. It is Christ Who brought God's will to man in His Person, thereby elevating the human will that is in Him...

geo

e4e

May 31st 2003, 11:20 PM

George Blaisdell
Christ has a human and a divine will, in right relationship, as we will have in Him. One person, two wills, without confusion, one human and one divine will, one God in three Persons. It is Christ Who brought God's will to man in His Person, thereby elevating the human will that is in Him...

e4e If what you say is true then Jesus was not the Son of God. Jesus had only one will and that was to do the will of the Father.
:poke:

Rdr. Arsenios

June 1st 2003, 10:13 PM

e4e writes::

George Blaisdell had written:
Christ has a human and a divine will, in right relationship, as we will have in Him. One person, two wills, without confusion, one human and one divine will, one God in three Persons. It is Christ Who brought God's will to man in His Person, thereby elevating the human will that is in Him...

e4e If what you say is true then Jesus was not the Son of God. Jesus had only one will and that was to do the will of the Father.
:poke:

Christ was the Son of Man and the Son of God - He was born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary - Two natures, two wills. He is the God-man Who is both fully God and fully human - Indeed He is the ONLY one who is fully human - We are all rather INhuman, to varying degrees, according to our sinfulness...

As a man, Christ saw the cup from which He was to drink, and asked the Father that it be taken from Him, but that if not, then THY will be done... It is because of Christ's divine nature that this side asked submissively... They were in right relationship, Christ in perfect obedience to the Father because of His divinity.

Beyond this, the rectification of the human condition is based upon Christ's assumption of the entirety of the human nature and condition - What Christ does not assume in His being is not healed, and there is nothing in man that Christ did not assume, and that includes His assumption of the human will, wherein He is the Son of Man...

Would ya mind not poking me in the eye again?? ':eek:'

geo

David O

July 1st 2003, 10:52 AM

I lived licentiously for a few years, but never renounced my faith. It was pretty terrifying at the end. I was walking away. There is a sin unto death that needn't be prayed for. The taking of the mark of the Beast is unforgiveable, as is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It seems very clear that a Christian can choose to do both of those things. Adam and Eve both chose to sin and leave their union with God. He promises to keep us if we stay, no one else can yank us away. We can leave. It is impossible to come back once you have tasted and left, though.

Sorry, I was responding to an earlier portion of this thread. I didn't realize it was so long.

Bill S

July 1st 2003, 11:30 AM

Eph 4:30__
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

This scripture settles the question. I think it means what it says and says what it means.

Bill

Rdr. Arsenios

July 1st 2003, 10:36 PM

Today @ 08:30 AM
Bill S:

Eph 4:30__
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

This scripture settles the question. I think it means what it says and says what it means.

Bill

That's the truth! It says DO NOT GRIEVE the Holy Spirit of God, and it even says why: This is the very Holy Spirit by Which ye are sealed unto the day of redemption... You will grieve this One at your own risk...

geo

OldShepherd

July 1st 2003, 11:35 PM

Why do Trinitarians refer to the Holy Ghost/Spirit as a person distinct from the Father and the Son? Because the Holy Spirit does all these individual, personal, activities, distinct from the Father and the Son!

The Holy Spirit independently; comforts, reveals, bears witness, helps, has a mind, loves, leads, makes intercession, speaks, anoints, gives utterance (causes to speak), can be tempted, bids (tells, instructs); approves, suffers (permits) and forbids actions; searches hearts and consciences, can be insulted, can be lied to, can be grieved, can be quenched, bears witness; can be blasphemed and spoken against, distinct from the son; teaches, thinks, witnesses, sanctifies, sends and is sent, and ordains to office.

These are all characteristics of a person, not an impersonal force, energy, power, etc.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities:

Ro 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit,

Ro 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit,

Mt 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit

Mt 10:20 the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Lu 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted,

Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Ac 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?

Ac 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip,

Ac 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him,

Ac 11:12 And the Spirit bade (told, instructed) me go with them

Ac 16:7 but the Spirit suffered them not.

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: the Spirit itself maketh intercession

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things,

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly

Heb 10:29 and hath done despite (insult) unto the Spirit of grace?

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness,

1 Jon 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;

Re 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit,

Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost,

Mr 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Lu 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost,

Lu 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost

Lu 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance

Ac 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Ac 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

Ac 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,

Ac 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost,

Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying,

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say,

Bill S

July 2nd 2003, 08:35 AM

That's the truth! It says DO NOT GRIEVE the Holy Spirit of God, and it even says why: This is the very Holy Spirit by Which ye are sealed unto the day of redemption... You will grieve this One at your own risk...

geo [/QUOTE]

If we are truly saved and grieve the Holy Spirit will will lose rewares but not our salvation.

ROM 11:6 And if by grace, then [it is] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more.

Rdr. Arsenios

July 2nd 2003, 10:39 AM

Bill S:

[geo]
>> That's the truth...

>> It says DO NOT GRIEVE the Holy
>> Spirit of God, and it even says why:
>> This is the very Holy Spirit by Which
>> ye are sealed unto the day of
>> redemption... You will grieve this
>> One at your own risk...

[Bill]
> If we are truly saved and grieve the
> Holy Spirit will will lose rewards but
> not our salvation.

"If we are truely saved..."

Do you mean:
If God loves us?
If God does not hate us?
If God has truely chosen us?

If God???

For is this not the burning question upon which this whole lopsided "only God and nothing human" theory of salvation comes to rest?

And how can anyone know IF...??? Do YOU know the mind of God, that He has chosen YOU???

We know we are called to repent and be baptized, and to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, persevering in our struggle against sin to the end, that we be saved...

We can always turn away from God, just as Adam did, as long as we are alive on earth. And likewise we can always repent, on earth. [After death it is too late, for we then do not have our bodies, which we need for repentance... Yes?]

ROM 11:6 And if by grace, then [it is] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more.

In the same chapter he goes on to say: [Rom 11:20]

"Because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear; [21] for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee."

Unless I am utterly blinded, this says that Christians stand by faith, and should fear greatly, lest like the Jews they ALSO be not spared... And these Christians, like you and me, stand by faith, and that faith is very plainly from this passage NOT the faith that they are "saved no matter what" by divine pre-selection, for that would mean that God has spared them no matter what, and the passage plainly says: " take heed lest He also spare not thee."

Are we on the same page here? In the same Bible?

We are called to repentance, and our salvation depends on it, just as it does upon our being called, for it is all of grace, yet like Israel of old, should we become high-minded, presuming ourselves to be saved by grace regardless of our faith, of our repentance, we are in great danger, as indeed even now we all are, for how many live in fear of not being spared? We are not natural branches, like the Jews are, but wild ones in great need of much greater change that we should be saved, which means much more faithful effort in fear and trembling as we work out our salvation in repentance, for outside this, how can we be saved? And is not repentance a work? And surely you are not arguing that God repents FOR us??? [That Biblical quote does not exist!]

There is no such thing as "effortless" Christian salvation, for we are called to love God with ALL our strength, to wrest ourselves from our worldly mind, putting it to death, as we nurture and cause to grow, by God's grace, into maturity, the new creature in Christ - This is the great work of salvation by grace in the human soul, and we are called to it through a life of turning away frin self and away from the world, and turning toward God, Who is faithful and gracious unto the struggles against sin of His faithful...

The Orthodox do not divide salvation from sanctification, and do not hippocritically say that you can have one without the other. We are called to conquer sin in ourselves, by God's grace, in a struggle unto the death, for the salvation of our souls...

Enough of this rant! Sorry for being so windy... And for any offense...

geo

Bill S

July 2nd 2003, 02:15 PM

GEORGE WRITES:

And how can anyone know IF...??? Do YOU know the mind of God, that He has chosen YOU???

We know we are called to repent and be baptized, and to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, persevering in our struggle against sin to the end, that we be saved... >>>>

BILL WRITES:

I DO NOT BELIEVE IN PREDESTINATION AS YOU IMPLY GEORGE. THE SCRIPTURES SAY WE ARE TO 'WORK OUT' NOT WORK FOR OUR SALVATION.

GEORGE WRITES:

We can always turn away from God, just as Adam did, as long as we are alive on earth. And likewise we can always repent, on earth. [After death it is too late, for we then do not have our bodies, which we need for repentance... Yes?]

In the same chapter he goes on to say: [Rom 11:20]

"Because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear; [21] for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee."

Unless I am utterly blinded, this says that Christians stand by faith, and should fear greatly, lest like the Jews they ALSO be not spared... And these Christians, like you and me, stand by faith, and that faith is very plainly from this passage NOT the faith that they are "saved no matter what" by divine pre-selection, for that would mean that God has spared them no matter what, and the passage plainly says: " take heed lest He also spare not thee."

Are we on the same page here? In the same Bible?

We are called to repentance, and our salvation depends on it, just as it does upon our being called, for it is all of grace, yet like Israel of old, should we become high-minded, presuming ourselves to be saved by grace regardless of our faith, of our repentance, we are in great danger, as indeed even now we all are, for how many live in fear of not being spared? We are not natural branches, like the Jews are, but wild ones in great need of much greater change that we should be saved, which means much more faithful effort in fear and trembling as we work out our salvation in repentance, for outside this, how can we be saved? And is not repentance a work? And surely you are not arguing that God repents FOR us??? [That Biblical quote does not exist!]

There is no such thing as "effortless" Christian salvation, for we are called to love God with ALL our strength, to wrest ourselves from our worldly mind, putting it to death, as we nurture and cause to grow, by God's grace, into maturity, the new creature in Christ - This is the great work of salvation by grace in the human soul, and we are called to it through a life of turning away frin self and away from the world, and turning toward God, Who is faithful and gracious unto the struggles against sin of His faithful...

The Orthodox do not divide salvation from sanctification, and do not hippocritically say that you can have one without the other. We are called to conquer sin in ourselves, by God's grace, in a struggle unto the death, for the salvation of our souls...

Enough of this rant! Sorry for being so windy... And for any offense...

geo [/QUOTE]

Bill S

July 2nd 2003, 02:21 PM

[
GEORGE WRITES:

And how can anyone know IF...??? Do YOU know the mind of God, that He has chosen YOU???

We know we are called to repent and be baptized, and to work out our salvation in fear and trembling, persevering in our struggle against sin to the end, that we be saved...

BILL WRITES:

I DO NOT BELIEVE IN PREDESTINATION AS YOU IMPLY GEORGE. THE SCRIPTURES SAY WE ARE TO 'WORK OUT' NOT WORK FOR OUR SALVATION.

GEORGE WRITES:
George writes:

We are called to repentance, and our salvation depends on it,
There is no such thing as &quot;effortless&quot;

Bill writes:

Of coures we repent. It is a result of the Grace of God at salvation. I did not say we are not called to repentence but it is not what saves us as you imply.

George writes:

The Orthodox do not divide salvation from sanctification, and do not hippocritically say that you can have one without the other. We are called to conquer sin in ourselves, by God's grace, in a struggle unto the death, for the salvation of our souls.

Justification is part of salvation not sanctification. Sanctification is a prgressive work all our lives.

If we could lose our salvation then there were strings attached and it was not a gift by definition. Also see Romans 11:29, which says the gifts and the call of the Lord are without repentance (irrevocable in some other versions).

Romans 11:20-22 -- Paul tells us that the Jews were cut off from God because they failed to believe in Christ. Certainly the same is also true of the gentiles. The legalist should be wary since he is making the same mistake the Jews made which can be seen by reading the beginning of the chapter (verses 1 through 6).

Romans 8:13 -- Paul simple warns the church that believers are not after the flesh but in the Spirit (vss. 8-9). Who we serve, sin or God, reveals whether we have been regenerated or not (Romans 6).

3) Galatians 5:19-21 -- These verses list off several sins and then says at the end that those who do such sins will not inherit the kingdom of God. Most expositors agree that Paul is describing someone who has not escaped from the bondage of sin through Jesus Christ (Romans 6:10, 14; 2 Peter 1:4). Mr. Corner's alternate interpretation is that we will lose our salvation if we commit these sins. How he can say this after reading the first four chapters of Galatians is amazing. The whole book is an apologetic against works based salvation and repeatedly states that the law can in no way justify us before God (Galatians 2:16, 3:3, 5:4). Note especially Galatians 3:3 which asks if after starting in the Spirit, are we made perfect through the flesh? Salvation through works is complete and utter heresy and the Apostle says let those be accursed who would pervert the gospel to preach another(Gal.1:6-9). They in effect have made Christ dead in vain (Galatians 2:21). This applies specifically to the legalist, since faith + works happened to be the same false doctrine being preached at Galatia.

Hebrews 10:14 says in simple terms that we as Christians have been made perfect forever. How can some who has been made perfect forever lose his or her salvation? It just does not make any logical sense to say such a person could lose their salvation.

Dave Hunt says

According to Hebrews 6:4-9, the “falling away” doctrine, rather than glorifying Christ, once again holds Him up to shame and ridicule before the world for two reasons:

if we could lose our salvation, then 1) Christ would have to be crucified again to save us again; and 2) He would be ridiculed for dying to purchase a salvation but not making adequate provision to preserve it—for giving a priceless gift to those who would inevitably lose it. If Christ’s death in our place for our sins and His resurrection were not sufficient to keep us saved, then He has foolishly wasted His time. If we could not live a good enough life to earn salvation, it is certain we cannot live a good enough life to keep it. To make the salvation He procured ultimately dependent upon our faltering works would be the utmost folly.

“Falling away” doctrine makes us worse off after we are saved than before. At least before conversion we can get saved. But after we are saved and have lost our salvation (if we could), we can’t get saved again, but are lost forever. Hebrews 6:6 declares, “If (not when) they shall fall away…it is impossible…to renew them again unto repentance.” That “falling away” is hypothetical is clear (verse 9): “But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.” So “falling away” does not “accompany salvation.” The writer is showing us that if we could lose our salvation, we could never get it back without Christ dying again upon the cross. This is folly. He would have to die an infinite number of times (that is, every time every person who was once saved sinned and was lost and wanted to be “saved again”). Thus, those who reject “once saved, always saved” can only replace it with “once lost, always lost.”

Dave Hunt

trueseeker

July 2nd 2003, 03:23 PM

I think part of the question has to do with definitions. What is 'predestination', a 'sinner', what is 'repentence', what is 'salvation', etc.. Here is my perspective on the issue.

God's destiny for everyone is to be transformed into the likeness of His Son Jesus. We are His children created in His image, we fell from fulfilling that destiny, and His desire for all of us is to help us get back on the path to fulfilling that destiny. This fulfilling of our destiny is what predestiny is referring to, and it is referring to everyone.

Being a sinner is falling short of fulfilling our destiny. A sinner is going the wrong direction and has no chance of becoming what God wants us to.

Repentence is changing direction and beginning to go the right direction, to fulfill our purpose in life--our destiny of becoming like Jesus.

Salvation is when we become like Jesus. When our hearts have been purified so that the heart and pure motives of our Lord are built in us. If we are becoming more like Jesus, we are no longer sinners, we aren't missing the mark, we are on target with our lives. And finally, when we see Him, we shall become like Him. Not in power or position, but in our hearts. Then we shall have truly obtained our salvation.

If someone accepts Jesus' sacrifice for their sins, and starts down the right path of becoming like Jesus, then gets off it. So that they become a sinner again, off the track of becoming like Jesus, they do not need to accept Jesus' sacrifice for their sins again. That is a one time process, Jesus didn't die many times for them. But they do need to repent again (change the direction of their lives) and allow the Holy Spirit to again start changing their hearts so they are being transformed into the likeness of Christ.

Those who are not willing to die to themselves and be transformed into the likeness of Jesus, to become what God made us to be, will not obtain salvation. This includes those who never started down the road to salvation, and those who did who turned aside and didn't continue down it. However, for those who accept Jesus' sacrifice and are willing to die to themselves and allow God to shape us into what He designed us to be, there is eternal security. As long as we are willing to be shaped by Him, He will not drop us.

Bill S

July 2nd 2003, 04:27 PM

After one accepts Christ what does it mean to be saved? It means no longer being under the condemnation of God, and no longer being subject to His wrath (Romans 8:1). Those who accept Jesus Christ by faith receive eternal life (John 3:16, 36). Salvation is a gift wholly from God. Jonah 2:9 says, "Salvation is from the LORD". Salvation is granted by the grace of God through faith, apart from good works on our part.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Being saved means being brought from a lost condition by Christ (Colossians 1:13) into a saved condition that provides the believer with great blessings the moment we trust Him. These blessings are very comprehensive, for our "salvation includes every divine undertaking for the believer from his deliverance out of the lost estate to his final presentation in glory conformed to the image of Christ" (L.S. Chafer, Systematic Theology [Dallas: Dallas Seminary Press, 1948], 3:6). Paul declares that God has already blessed us with all spiritual blessings in Christ (Ephesians 1:3).

Some of the principal blessings of salvation include first of all, regeneration, which is an immediate work of the Holy Spirit in originating a new nature in the believing sinner so as to transform the believer from a state of spiritual death to spiritual life (John 3:5; 10:10, 28; 1 John 5:11-12). Secondly, justification, by which God declares the believer righteous since clothed in the righteousness of Christ (Romans 3:21-26). A third blessing of salvation is freedom from the dominion of sin (Romans 6:2-14). A fourth blessing is being given as a gift from the Father to the Son (John 17:2-24). And a fifth blessing includes being a member in the spiritual body of Christ, the church (1 Corinthians 12:13). There are many other blessings associated with salvation, many more positive acts of God that transform the lost, unregenerate sinner into a vessel of the Holy Spirit--a person being conformed into the image of Christ.

But the question remains: Can a Christian lose his salvation? Can a person once saved, having received God's free gift of eternal life and having been born into the family of God, again return exactly and completely to the position of being a lost and guilty sinner in the eyes of God? Of course not! The very nature of the spiritual life that has been received is eternal, and God, the source of that life is more than strong and able to Himself "confirm, strengthen, and establish" the believer to salvation (1 Peter 5:10).

This Biblical doctrine that a person who has received Jesus Christ, been born into the family of God, and justified by faith, can never again be lost is sometimes called eternal security. Others speak of it as the perseverance of the saints. The latter expression might better be termed the perseverance of God in behalf of the saints, because the security of our salvation does not rest on us but on God. 1 Corinthians 1:8 says that it is Jesus Christ who confirms the believer to the end.

"For a believer to lose his salvation would demand a reversal and an undoing of all the preceding works of the Father, Son, and Spirit. The key issue in the discussion of the believer's security concerns the issue of who does the saving. If man is responsible for securing his salvation, then he can be lost; if God secures the person's salvation, then the person is forever secure" (Paul Enns, The Moody Handbook of Theology [Chicago: Moody Press, 1989], p. 341).

Some important questions to consider would be the following. If one is truly saved by grace apart from works through faith in Christ, do good works allow one to "keep" his salvation? If so, where would the focus be? On Jesus, or on personal performance? Can one be assured of his salvation by looking at his personal performance? Scripture says one cannot!

"Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified." (Galatians 2:16)

"Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:20)

How many of our sins were nailed to the cross with the Lord Jesus? The answer is all! How many of our sins were future when the Lord Jesus died? The answer again is all! There are, however, those today who would agree to all of this, and yet teach that it is possible for a true born-again believer through sin, backsliding, or some other means, to lose his salvation. It is true that the Bible never uses the phrase "eternal security" as such. It does however use some better terms: "eternal redemption" (Hebrews 9:12), "eternal salvation" (Hebrews 5:9), and "eternal life" (John 3:16).

Bill S

July 2nd 2003, 04:57 PM

From: joemizzi@global.net.mt

BY FAITH, NOT OF WORKS

Joe Mizzi

One day my brother came home and asked me a very strange question: "Do you realize that we are saved by faith in Christ, and not by our good works?" At that time, little did I know that the religious conversation that followed would mark the beginning of a dramatic change in my life.

Malta of Acts 28:1

I was born in 1966. My country, Malta, is a small island in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea. It is mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles. The ship taking the apostle Paul to Rome was shipwrecked on our shores. "And when they were escaped, then they knew that the island was called Melita. And the barbarous people shewed us no little kindness: for they kindled a fire, and received us every one, because of the present rain, and because of the cold." Luke calls the inhabitants "barbarous" because they did not speak the Greek language. The Maltese are hospitable and kind people, even as they were two millennia ago.

Today, Malta is intensely Roman Catholic. Someone has said that Malta is more Catholic than the Vatican. The population is almost 400 thousand, of which about 96% are Roman Catholic. There are almost one thousand priests on the island and about 360 churches. One could hear mass in a different church every day for a whole year. The religious zeal of the Maltese people can be seen in the hundreds of missionaries sent to Africa, South America and Asia who have laboured to convert thousands to the Catholic religion. The tourists are impressed by the beauty of our churches and the extravagant feasts organized all over the island. Catholicism pervades every aspect of the Maltese social, cultural and political life.

Catholic upbringing

My dear parents were hard-working people. They had to take care of all of us, three brothers and three sisters. Though my father was employed full-time, his salary was not sufficient to support the family and so he also worked as a farmer. I do not miss those days helping in the fields under the hot summer Mediterranean sun. There was one exception, however: I eagerly volunteered to join my father and brothers to go out picking grapes in September. My mother was just as busy, taking care of the house and the family. She did not know the meaning of idleness. Even during her rest, she used to knit woolen cardigans to earn some extra money. When I was young I hated her minestrone, which is really strange, because now it is my favourite food. She must have learned how to cook since then.

My parents were God-fearing people and they made sure to teach us the Catholic faith. Apart from the daily religion lessons at school, they also sent me to catechetical lessons after school hours in preparation for the communion, and later on for the sacrament of confirmation. Attendance to mass on Sunday was absolutely obligatory; my mother encouraged us by word and example to attend church daily. Every evening my father gathered all the family for the recitation of the rosary.

When I was a young teenager undergoing secondary education at the Gozo seminary, I was a proud member of the Catholic Church - the one true church of our Lord Jesus Christ. I didn’t know much about other religions but we were told that the Greek Orthodox and Protestant churches were breakaway bodies guilty of schism in the Church of Christ. They had some truth, but the fullness of truth was only to be found in the Roman Catholic Church.

A strange question

It was at this time that my brother, Paul, shocked me with the statement that a person is saved by faith in Christ and not on account of personal good works. It sounded like Martin Luther. To my mind that idea was both wrong and dangerous. It was wrong because St James says that we are justified by works and not by faith only; and dangerous because it obviously encouraged laziness and religious indifference. What, if a person is saved by faith, he can just believe and go on living an immoral life, never attend church or say a prayer, and still end up in heaven when he dies. The very thought is repulsive.

I soon found out what had happened to my brother. He had met some Evangelical tourists. They engaged in conversation with him and within a few short days they managed to convert him to their religion. How could he deny the true church and the faith that we cherished so much? I couldn’t believe that such a tragedy had happened to our family, and I was determined to convince him of his error and to bring him back to the Catholic Church.

Defending the Catholic Faith

My first line of argument was this. We need faith in Christ to be saved. But we also need to show our faith by good works. Therefore both faith and works are necessary for salvation. St James could not be clearer:

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?…Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone…shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works…" (James 2:14ff).

The answer to James’ rhetorical question is obvious: faith alone, faith without works, cannot save anyone. How can anyone teach that we are saved by faith alone and not by works also? Here was an impregnable fortress that would resist any Protestant attack.

But there was a little nagging feeling within me that I was not being quite sincere. Yes, without doubt good works such as prayers, obedience to the commandments, attending church and helping those in need, are the sure evidence that a person truly believes in Jesus. But as practicing Catholics, we did not consider such works merely as the evidence of our faith. At that time, I did not know anything about the sixth session of the Council of Trent on Justification, where the Catholic Church officially rejects the idea that good works are necessary because they are the natural results of faith, and therefore prove that faith is genuine. For example canon 24 states clearly:

"If any one saith, that the righteousness received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

Works are not merely the "fruits and signs." Works also "preserve" and "increase" the initial righteousness received in baptism. I was unable at that time to express my Catholics beliefs in theological terminology, but I knew from experience that works are necessary not only to prove that my faith is real, but also to actually keep me on the way to heaven and finally to merit eternal life.

We were taught that we merit more grace by attending mass and participating in the Eucharist. Moreover, I would commit mortal sin if I failed to attend Mass on Sunday except for a valid reason such as serious illness. If I died before I confessed this sin, I would end up in Hell forever. It did not matter that I believed in Jesus and that I generally lived a moral and religious life that proved that my faith was real. One mortal sin at the end and I would loose all my merits and my soul. So, although we saw salvation as somehow related to Jesus and his cross, it was equally clear that the crucial factor that determines where I spend eternity was my personal contribution by my good deeds, or lack of them.

Without doubt I had a definite part to play to achieve forgiveness and to be accepted by God. After confessing my sins to a priest, he used to prescribe some works of penance to make satisfaction for my sins. Usually the penance would consist of saying Padre and Ave Maria for a definite number of times. My heart remained stained with sin, even though I was forgiven, until I performed penance. I did not recite those prayers merely to prove that my faith was real, nor were those prayers the expression of my personal faith in God. Prayer, which ought to be the joy of every Christian to have communion with our heavenly Father, is turned into a penance, a punishment for sin!

The feast of our Lady of Sorrows is a very special occasion in my country. Solemn processions are organized in many towns and villages, which are attended by a good proportion of the population. Our family was not an exception. It was a day of fasting and in the evening we would join the penitential procession, saying the rosary and other prayers while we walked behind the statue of Our Lady. What did that mean? We were doing something - fasting and praying - to make satisfaction for our sins. We performed those religious works to make ourselves fit for heaven for we knew that we weren’t good enough yet.

The many pictures and statues depicting ‘souls’ in the flames of purgatory were a constant reminder that we needed to do more and more good works to prepare ourselves for death. The mind of a young boy could not remain unimpressed by the scene of men and women in the agony of fire. The horror of that picture can only be surpassed by the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory itself. The faithful must pay a debt of punishment by penance and good works on earth, and failing to do so, they must finish the satisfaction by personal suffering and torments in purgatory.

So, I was quite unhappy about my apologetic on faith and works. I was claiming that works are necessary to prove faith, but I knew that the Roman Church’s teaching went beyond that. As a Catholic I did not rest my salvation in the hands of Jesus, but I was striving to obey the commandments, participating in the sacraments, praying and fasting, in order to merit eternal life. So, St James was not actually promoting the Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation. Rather he teaches in no uncertain terms that genuine faith is manifest by good works; and if faith is alone, it only proves that the profession of faith is fake, dead and impotent to save. Proving faith by works is not the same as adding works to faith to merit eternal life.

Naturally, I did not admit this to my brother Paul. Although he protested that genuine faith is always accompanied by good works, I insisted that his formula of "salvation by faith and not by works" was wrong. My confidence in the Roman Catholic Church was not shaken and I was unhindered in my purpose to bring him back to mother church. But there was only one way that I could convince him. He had a knack of quoting the Holy Bible to support his arguments on every subject, whether it was salvation, confession, purgatory, Mary, the papacy and the mass. I knew that I had to study the Bible for myself in order to disarm him and to prove that the doctrines of the Catholic Church are found in the Bible.

Studying the Bible

And study I did! I read in the Catholic Bible, both in English and Maltese. I also asked questions to my religion teacher so that I’ll be better prepared. A passage of Scripture, Ephesians 2:8-10, was especially helpful to understand the relationship between faith and works in salvation.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

I must have read this passage a hundred times. Why does the apostle Paul say that we are not saved by works, and then immediately adds that we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works? It seemed that Paul was contradicting himself, first denying and immediately afterward affirming the necessity of good works. To my mind, verses eight and nine supported the Protestant position, whereas verse ten supported the Catholic teaching! Eventually, I had to admit (to myself, of course, and not to my brother) that this whole passage was perfectly consistent with the message preached by Protestants and that it seriously undermined the Catholic doctrine about salvation.

So, do personal works save us? The apostle Paul gives a definite "No!" for an answer: We are not saved by works! Firstly, because we are saved by grace. Secondly, because we are saved through faith. Thirdly, because salvation is not of ourselves. Fourthly, because salvation is the gift of God. Fifthly, because salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast. Sixthly, because saved people are God’s workmanship (God performed the work for our salvation). And lastly, because we are saved unto good works.

As a Catholic I did not merely believe that we are saved to do good works. Rather, I was supposed to do good works in order to merit eternal life. So, verse ten did not really support the Catholic position. The apostle Paul speaks about the role of good works. Negatively, he excludes works as the basis of salvation, for he says that we are saved "not of works." Positively, he includes doing good works as part and parcel of salvation, for, he says, we are created in Christ Jesus "unto good works." Therefore good works are not the cause but the fruit of salvation. A dead tree would not come to life if someone attaches some fruits to its withered branches. God does something better. He gives life to the tree. The good fruit that the tree produces shows that it is indeed alive. Intellectually that was not very difficult to understand, but I was not yet spiritually prepared to receive it.

The Bible reaches my heart

The reading of the Bible had an unexpected and unforeseen affect. Initially I used the Bible merely as an argumentative tool. Gradually, however, the words of Scripture began to penetrate the very depths of my soul. There was a gradual shift from a religious argument about salvation, to a pressing concern about my personal salvation and relationship with the Lord.

The Sermon on the Mount was particularly impressive and I determined to make it the standard of my life. I tried as best as I could to follow the teaching of the Lord. Yet the harder I tried, the more evident it became that I could never reach the high moral and spiritual standard of Christ. His standards are beyond my reach. How could I be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect?

An overwhelming sense of frustration and defeat forced me to reconsider my religious beliefs about good works. I had been trying to win God’s favour by my obedience and goodness, but I was failing miserably. When I discovered what the apostle Paul had to say about this matter, it was as if he was speaking directly to me:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20). "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Galatians 3:24). I was trying to be right with God by obeying His law. Instead, the law was revealing my failures and weakness. God was breaking my pride and preparing me to believe in Jesus.

Christ, the sin-bearer

As a Roman Catholic I was taught that salvation had to do with the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. We used to repeat this prayer, especially during Lent, "We adore You, O Christ, and we praise You. Because by Your Holy Cross You have redeemed the world." We were taught that Jesus opened the gate of heaven that had been closed by Adam’s sin, and that now, it was up to us to enter that open door by doing good and participating in the sacraments.

Reading of the Bible, I discovered that the Lord Jesus accomplished something more than that. He did not merely make salvation possible. He actually took upon himself the sins of His people and carried them to the cross. He became the sinner’s substitute. I loved to read the following scriptures:

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:6).

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree" (Galatians 3:13).

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God" (1 Peter 3:18).

God placed the sins of his people on Christ. Jesus, who was without sin, took upon himself the sins of others, and endured the curse of the Law in their place. He died that they might live. Thus, having taken away their sins, they are reconciled to God. The punishment for my sins is not repeating a few prayers or suffering in the fires of purgatory. Jesus died in the place of sinners. Maybe that’s why the Bible teaches that salvation is not of our work; salvation is the work of Another.

Believing in Christ

Several months after the initial conversation with my brother, I read through the Gospel of John. When I finished the book, I asked myself: What’s the overall message of this gospel? The answer was quite obvious. On scores of occasions the writer emphasizes the centrality of believing in Jesus. John 3:16 was the most memorable verse: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." The apostle John would not allow us to miss this great truth. CONTINUED>>

Bill S

July 2nd 2003, 04:58 PM

§ But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

§ That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

§ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

§ He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

§ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

§ Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

§ And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

§ And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

§ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

§ Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

§ She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

§ And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

§ While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

§ I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

§ Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

§ Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

§ And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

§ Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

§ That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

§ And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

§ But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

That was the answer I was looking for. God wants me to believe in His Son! Up to that time I assumed that I was already believing in Him, and of course, I assented to all the truths about the Deity, incarnation, death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Yet I did not completely trust in Jesus. The very works - prayer, attending church, fasting, and obedience - that should be the evidence of my faith in Christ, actually exposed my lack of faith in Him. I was performing them for the wrong motive. Up to that point I was hoping to get to heaven because of the merits of my religious works. Ironically, the works which are ‘good’ in themselves were keeping me away from believing in Christ.

God brought me to this crossroad. On one hand I could continue to live according to the religion that promised eternal life on the merits of my works if I died in the state of grace. On the other hand, I could abandon that teaching and completely trust in the Lord Jesus Christ alone for my salvation. I was by myself at home one day, I knelt down and prayed. I acknowledged my sin and guilt. I admitted that I could not pay my debt by doing good, and I asked God to receive me for the sake of Jesus Christ His Son. The joy in my heart was unspeakable.

Bitter sweet experience

The following Sunday I went to mass as usual. During the sermon, the priest was saying that unless we do works with a good motive, they would not have any merit for salvation. I turned to my friend, who was sitting beside me. "Did you hear what he said? But we can’t merit salvation by our works. We are saved by faith in Christ. The Bible says…." And I quoted Ephesians 2:8,9! "I cannot remain a member in a church that teaches such things." When I left church that day, I left the Roman Catholic religion for good.

The repercussions were not easy to bear. I could not understand why my best friend would not even say hello any longer. Years later he admitted that a priest had told him not to speak to me. The worst torment came from the strained relations with my dear parents. Understandably, they were very worried about me, and at one point they tried to force me to go to church on Sunday. Naturally, I wished I could obey them, but how could I? I could not go against my conscience, and thankfully, they accepted that. I also feel socially and culturally isolated in the Maltese Catholic society. In a very real sense I became a stranger in my own country, the feeling can be very uncomfortable indeed.

Yet all that is nothing when compared with the exceeding joy of experiencing the peace of God. "Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee" (Psalm 73:25). Now I am free from the bondage of sin, and for the first time in my life I can do good for the pure motive of love rather than to gain merit for salvation. I avoid sin because I love God, not because of the threat of purgatory or hell. I am certain that God embraces me with his love today. The blood-stained cross of Calvary, the empty grave outside Jerusalem and the Son of God sitting at the right hand of the Majesty on high are my assurance of salvation.

Loving Catholics

I desire to tell everyone the Good News of Jesus Christ. I feel especially drawn to Catholics, whom I know and understand so well. From what I observe, they could be divided into two groups. First, there are those who are nominally Catholic; they don’t really care much about religion. They are preoccupied with their business, money and pleasures. They are comfortable with their cheating, lying, pride, gossip, animosity and immorality. And yet somehow they delude themselves thinking that all will be well at the end. After all they are Catholics and attend church sometimes. They need to be told that their ‘faith’ is dead because it is devoid of good works. Their religion cannot save them and they urgently need to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus.

Then there is another group, the devout Catholics, who are genuinely concerned about their spiritual state. They are aware of the holiness of God, their sinfulness, the judgement to come and the possibility of hell. They strive to obtain peace with God through faithful submission to the Roman Catholic system. They need to hear the good news that salvation is not by works, but by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. They are desperate for the rest and peace that God gives to those who trust their salvation in the hands of His Son, Jesus.

As long as God gives me breath, I want to proclaim the same message that opened the door to my freedom. Dear reader, do you realize that we are saved by faith in Christ, and not by our good works?

Rdr. Arsenios

July 2nd 2003, 05:42 PM

[geo]:
> > We are called to repentance, and our salvation depends on it,
> > There is no such thing as effortless salvation...

[Bill writes]:

> Of coures we repent. It is a result of the Grace of God at
> salvation.

Repentance comes AT salvation??? Are you seriously arguing that repentance is not unto salvation??? That God saves unrepentant sinners???

Show me a scripture that says THAT!!

> I did not say we are not called to repentence

No, you didn't - But you DO say that we repent AT salvation, so are you saying that the calling IS salvation???

> but it is not what saves us as you imply.

By saying that without repentance you will not be saved, I am not saying that repentance saves... I AM saying that if you do NOT repent, then you WILL NOT [future tense] be saved... Without repentance God will not save you... And God does not repent FOR you, yes?

This is not rocket science...

geo

trueseeker

July 2nd 2003, 05:56 PM

Bill S,

The doctrine of eternal security the way you are stating it, is not the doctrine of the early Believers, it is the interpretation of Calvin.

Of course, forgiveness of sins and new life and the Spirit leading us and molding us to be like Jesus are free gifts of God. We didn't do anything to earn them. He has offered them freely to us. But doctrine that takes all personal responsibility away from people, is not true to the scriptures. The scriptures clearly state that we must choose to accept Jesus and follow Jesus.

If you accept the teachings of Calvin, they boil down to that there is no personal responsibility or free will. If you are predestined to become a Christian, you will and you can't fall away. If you are not predestined to be a Christian, you cannot become one. He eliminates, free will, personal responsibility, choice, need for perserverence, need to evangilize, need to be concerned about treating others around you in way that might effect their eternal destiny. Calvin's doctrines are not consistant with the scriptures.

The scriptures call us to choose who we will follow. Tell us to continue in the faith and persevere and not fall away. Tell us that God wants everyone to be saved. All these thngs and many more have to be explained away as not meaning what they clearly state, to believe in Calvin's doctrines.

So my question to those who were taught and raised to accept Calvin's interpretations of the scriptures is: Are you more concerned about defending what you have been taught and have believed to this point, or are you more interested in finding the true meaning of the scriptures?

The only way to do so, is to be willing to give up what you believe now, and ask God to lead you into a better understanding of the scriptures. From my perspective Calvinism is false doctrine that stunts the spiritual growth of millions of Christians. Of the hundreds that I have talked to only a handful have been willing to reevaluate their position and reread the New Testament with a open mind to accept what it says, instead of what they have been taught. All without exception, that I have know who have asked God to show them the truth about Calvin's doctrines of predestination and eternal security and have reread the New Testament without commentary, have rejected Calvinism.

Bill S

July 2nd 2003, 06:16 PM

George Blaisdell:[/b][/i]

[Bill writes]:

Of coures we repent. It is a result of the Grace of God at
salvation.

George writes:

Repentance comes AT salvation??? Are you seriously arguing that repentance is not unto salvation??? That God saves unrepentant sinners???

Bill writes:

Well, Hmm. No He does not and I did not say He does save unrepentence sinners. You can not repent until you have been moved on by the Holy Spirit. you can not do it on your own. No man comes to the Father unless the Holy Spirit draws him.

Bill writes:

; I did not say we are not called to repentence

George writes:

No, you didn't - But you DO say that we repent AT salvation, so are you saying that the calling IS salvation???

Bill Writes
At, with, slightly before, slightly after, at the same time, whatever. The point is, repentence does not save but is the result of God convicting.

George writes:

By saying that without repentance you will not be saved, I am not saying that repentance saves... I AM saying that if you do NOT repent, then you WILL NOT [future tense] be saved... Without repentance God will not save you... And God does not repent FOR you, yes?

Bill writes:

Of course you will repent if you are being saved. That is not rocket science .

George writes:
This is not rocket science...

geo [/QUOTE]

OldShepherd

July 4th 2003, 10:13 AM

My favorite Calvinism proof text is Jeremiah 13:23. This verse proves that man is predestined to be either saved or condemned and man is completely helpless to change his condition.
Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
The leopard cannot change the spots on his skin, and the Ethiopian cannot change the color of his skin. Therefore mankind cannot change from doing evil to doing good. There it is, predestination in a nutshell. And if we read earlier in this chapter we will find another proof text.
Jere 13:11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
God had told Jeremiah to acquire a new girdle or waist sash and to bury it in the stones near the Euphrates river. After a period of time God told Jeremiah to go recover the sash. When he did so it was decayed and useless. The God compared the nations of Israel and Judah to the rotted, useless sash.

Notice God said that just as a sash clings to the loins of a man He caused, i.e. “predestination” not just some certain chosen persons, but the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, to cleave to Him in the same manner. And since God’s will is omni-supreme, whatever God wills or predestines will come to pass. God’s “predestination” for the entire nation of Israel and Judah was to be, “a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory” But although God “predestined” that, they would not hear and because they would not hear or obey God, He said that He would, “not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them”
Jer 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
The word translated “I will cause to cling” is the Hebrew word דבק, to cling or to cleave, and it is in the perfect mood.
08816 Perfect

The Perfect mood expresses a completed action.

1) In reference to time, such an action may be:

1a) one just completed from the standpoint of the present
"I have come" to tell you the news

1b) one completed in the more or less distant past
in the beginning God "created"
"I was (once) young" and "I have (now) grown old" but
"I have not seen" a righteous man forsaken

1c) one already completed from the point of view of another
past act
God saw everything that "he had made"

1d) one completed from the point of view of another action
yet future
I will draw for thy camels also until "they have done"
drinking

2) The perfect is often used where the present is employed in
English.

2a) in the case of general truths or actions of frequent
occurrence — truths or actions which have been often
experienced or observed
the grass "withereth"
the sparrow "findeth" a house

2b) an action or attitude of the past may be continued into
the present
"I stretch out" my hands to thee
"thou never forsakest" those who seek thee

2c) the perfect of intransitive verbs is used where English
uses the present; The perfect in Hebrew in such a case
emphasises a condition which has come into "complete
existence" and realisation
"I know" thou wilt be king
"I hate" all workers of iniquity

2d) Sometimes in Hebrew, future events are conceived so
vividly and so realistically that they are regarded as
having virtually taken place and are described by the
perfect.

2d1) in promises, threats and language of contracts
the field "give I" thee
and if not, "I will take it"

2d2) prophetic language
my people "is gone into captivity"
(i.e. shall assuredly go)
And OBTW the Calvinist proof text Jer 13:23 is addressed to Israel and Judah, because of their sins, NOT all of mankind.