Looking for covenental input

[Berean Todd]

As many of you may have picked up from my posts, I am a dispensationalist (acts 2), however, on some levels I have been seeking in that area. In particular, the only real distinction between covenentalism and dispensationalism is that dispies see a differentiation between Israel and the church. In light of some recent studies I have been doing (Rom 11:11-24, Gal 3:7-8, Eph 2:11 and following) I am questioning that.

Ok, that sets the stage then, and my question is this. I'm not looking for debate on the point above, but outside of a few reformed theologians like Sprouhl, I have never really read any covenental writters. What I am looking for is a covenental theologian - and one who would be considered conservative, preferably holding to the literal, grammatical, historical method of interpreting scriptures - who has a good systematic theology text/set that I could pick up to read, study and consider. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated ...

[GoBahnsen]

O.Palmer Robertson is real good. He wrote a classic called The Christ of The Covenants (Presbyterian and Reformed publishing co.).

Actually, I'm pretty new to Covenantal Theology myself. I know it sets us apart from most Arminians and many Calvinistic Baptists for that matter. My Reformed teachers really bristle at Dispensationalism.

I've still yet to develop the hatred for it that they have. I'm getting the feeling that it's really bad stuff and of course, relatively new...which makes it look suspect to a Church that didn't know of it for 1,800 years.

I'm curious to see if any Reformed guys have a succinct post on Covenantal Theology to post here.

[Pilgrim]

How about Calvin himself? Or barring that maybe Hodges?

[dizzle]

Todd I have just the book for you. It is called The Israel of God in Prophecy by Hans K. LaRondelle. Now, Hans is an SDA, but that does not influence his work (sans a few nonobjectionable Hellen G. White quotes) - this book is in very very high regard by nonSDA persons and is (I heard anecdotably) responsible for a mass defection from dispensationalism in one year by DTS students.

I would also recommend HIGHLY "The Hope of Israel" by Philip Mauro.

If I think of any more I will let you know. I would be glad to help you in your quest. I am a former very committed dispensationalist, very much like you are now.

[Calvinist4Him]

Covenant Theology? The late Dr. Greg Bahnsen http://www.cmfnow.com/product.asp?0=506&1=508&3=10718 would be an excellent choice for source material. I must say, as a Calvinist, one of my issues with Dr. Bahnsen is his position on speaking in tongues. But fortunately, to me, it's not a major enough issue that I cannot benifit from his work on other topics and issues. It's just one of those things which irritate a person. I suppose one of the reasons I am irritated by is, is because Dr. Bahnsen was a brilliant man. Maybe if he had lived longer, he would have changed on that? :shrug: Who knows...

[Berean Todd]

this book is in very very high regard by nonSDA persons and is (I heard anecdotably) responsible for a mass defection from dispensationalism in one year by DTS students.
I must say, I had to chuckle at that bit, because I still at this point at least plan on attending DTS for my graduate work. I'm not totally defected from dispensationalism, I just have issues that are being raised and am seeking now. I am a BereanTodd-ist right now, because I don't really at present feel comfortable with dispensationalism, but I am not at all comfortable with some of the alternatives yhet, which is why I am seeking some good sources. Thanks for the suggestions.

[Berean Todd]

How about Calvin himself? Or barring that maybe Hodges?
If you mean Charles Hodges, I've read some of him, and I thought he was considered a dispensationalist? Am I wrong on that account? What I've read I've liked, I might have to look more thoroughly at some of his stuff if he is covenental ...

[Berean Todd]

Here's another question as well: can you give me some solid covenental or reformed seminaries I might make inquiries with? As I said I still, at this point, see my goal of being DTS, even if I do go in with diferences on dispensationalism, but I am curious to look into other seminaries. I know plenty of dispensational or mostly dispensational schools, but would be interested in other possibilities. Thanks again for any input.

[spiritmech]

Todd I have just the book for you. It is called The Israel of God in Prophecy by Hans K. LaRondelle. Now, Hans is an SDA, but that does not influence his work (sans a few nonobjectionable Hellen G. White quotes) - this book is in very very high regard by nonSDA persons and is (I heard anecdotably) responsible for a mass defection from dispensationalism in one year by DTS students.

I would also recommend HIGHLY "The Hope of Israel" by Philip Mauro.

If I think of any more I will let you know. I would be glad to help you in your quest. I am a former very committed dispensationalist, very much like you are now.

Which year did they defect? 70s, 80s, or 90s? I like Mauro's study on Daniel. Actually, I'd like to get some Mauro stuff on preteristlist.org if you want. I can help type things in or edit.

My dad works at DTS, not a professor, so I get to hear bits and pieces of things. Apparently their enrollment is going up, when almost every other seminary's enrollment is going down.

[dizzle]

Todd here is another suggestion - for quick reads go to my site at www.preteristlist.com and thereis a section called "contra-dispensationalism" - there is a listing there of some books and some online articles

[dizzle]

Which year did they defect? 70s, 80s, or 90s? I like Mauro's study on Daniel. Actually, I'd like to get some Mauro stuff on preteristlist.org if you want. I can help type things in or edit.
Let me see if I can get more specifics - I heard this once on a gentry tape that i have, so let me see if I can find the tape and see if more specifics were given to refresh my recollection

Mauro is awesome - anything you got together from him I would get on the site for certain



My dad works at DTS, not a professor, so I get to hear bits and pieces of things. Apparently their enrollment is going up, when almost every other seminary's enrollment is going down.
I wrote DTS without response to see if one of their students might be interested in a live structured paltalk debate on the Great Tribulation. I wrote twice and was utterly ignored.

[Tertius]

It's not what you asked for, but if you want a different perspective on dispensationalism (from a mid-Acts perspective), you can read "Things that Differ" by C.R. Stam online here:

http://www.bijbel.nl/things_that_differ.htm

:smile:

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

As far as Covenant/Reformed Theology goes, you might consult Louis Berkhof's Systematic Theology in one volume---it'll stand you in good stead. For contrast, from the Dispensational side, there's Charles Ryrie's Dispensationalism, which is a revision of his seminal book, Dispensationalism Today. As to DTS and progressive dispensationalism, I'd say try Blaising and Bock's work on the subject. If you'll read these, you'll have a substantial overview of what the issues really are. Berkhof and Ryrie are both good representatives of their theologies, and they are measured, remaining mostly untainted by the misleading polemical tendencies
which too often prevent genuine dialog, IMHO.

[dizzle]

I think Todd has already roundly rejected X9ism if I understood him correctly on another thread.

[Berean Todd]

I think Todd has already roundly rejected X9ism if I understood him correctly on another thread.
Absolutely ... I am very well read from a dispensational background, and I know all of the various schools of thought. I just am weak with respect to covenantalists. As far as X9ism goes it's borderline, if not out and out, heresy in my book. That's about as nice as I can keep my thoughts on their doctrine.

[Solly]

Try www.monergism.com as well, for many useful articles.

the only real distinction between covenentalism and dispensationalism is that dispies see a differentiation between Israel and the church

I'm not sure if this is the only distinction, although an important one...

[Berean Todd]

the only real distinction between covenentalism and dispensationalism is that dispies see a differentiation between Israel and the church

I'm not sure if this is the only distinction, although an important one...
It really is the only difference, unless you start talking about X9ism which starts getting weird, or very early 19th century dispie-ism, which for a time bordered on teaching different modes of salvation.

Dispies are all pre-mill - but there are pre-mil covenantelists; dispies believe in a literal reading of the Word - but that also is not exclusive to them. The distinguishing factor is the Israel/church factor, and the way that causes them to look at a whole host of issues.

[Solly]

It really is the only difference, unless you start talking about X9ism which starts getting weird, or very early 19th century dispie-ism, which for a time bordered on teaching different modes of salvation.

Dispies are all pre-mill - but there are pre-mil covenantelists; dispies believe in a literal reading of the Word - but that also is not exclusive to them. The distinguishing factor is the Israel/church factor, and the way that causes them to look at a whole host of issues.

Not arguing here, just clarifying.

Most of the premill amongst covenantalists has been classic historicist premill, while others have been historicist postmill or amillers.
Disp'ism started in the 19th cent with Darby, and you know a lot more about it than I do, so i don't know how it got into the covenantalist churches ala John MacArthur. I do know that Progressive Dispies are moving closer to covenantalists, and covenantalists are making some concessions to the PD's mostly amongst academics though.

On the literal reading, there isn't anyone who follows a purely literal reading, that is why we have the differences over the Israel/Church issue. All groups claim to use grammatico-historical methods, but each must take acocunt of spiritualisation, analogy, type, metaphor etc. It's just they disagree on what should be interpreted in what way.

I think the different structures of our interpretation, of Covenant and Dispensation is also a major difference, which has led to the aberrations you noted, in 19th cent Disp'ism and Mid-Acts disp'ism.
Probably most of the differences come down to a Reformed, or nonReformed influence.

[Tertius]

...As far as X9ism goes it's borderline, if not out and out, heresy in my book...
:yipee: Yippee. I love being the "heretic!" J/K LOL.

[Berean Todd]

:yipee: Yippee. I love being the "heretic!" J/K LOL.
Sorry, I don't mean it to offend, it is how I feel - the teaching that Christ and Paul taught different gospels, that most of the Bible isn't for Christians today, that baptism isn't for today, although Christ said to go into the world and baptize them. It's just foolishness in my eyes.

[dizzle]

Try www.monergism.com (http://www.monergism.com) as well, for many useful articles.

the only real distinction between covenentalism and dispensationalism is that dispies see a differentiation between Israel and the church

I'm not sure if this is the only distinction, although an important one...
Many modern dispie authors are making this statement that it is THE distinction and that there is much overlap in others... they are finally abandaning the notion of a consistently "literal" hermeneutic.

[Tertius]

Besides church and Israel, another one of the other differences you find is that "Lordship Salvation" goes with some of the convenantal crowd. Hope that helps....

[Tertius]

Sorry, I don't mean it to offend...
No apology needed, as no offense was taken. :teeth: