Do Protestants and Catholics agree on a common form of Orthodoxy?

[AndyN]

Hello there.
Doing an essay on Orthodoxy and Heresy in early church history and contemporary society.
I have heard various people say that Catholics and Protestants can see a basic form of 'orthodoxy' which they say they can agree on. Is this view echoed in prominent Church leaders? Links/Book recommendations much appreciated!!!!

[Berean Todd]

Hello there.
Doing an essay on Orthodoxy and Heresy in early church history and contemporary society.
I have heard various people say that Catholics and Protestants can see a basic form of 'orthodoxy' which they say they can agree on. Is this view echoed in prominent Church leaders? Links/Book recommendations much appreciated!!!!
I don't know that there is a common ground between us ... it comes close - the trinity, the virgin birth, the divinity of Christ, etc, etc. But where the rubber meets the road, and whether they want to admit it or not, Catholicism teaches a works-righteousness; moreover I think most prots have an issue with catholics over the borderline, if not out and out, idolotry often ascribed to Mary and the "saints". I don't know that most protestants would want to cross that bridge, those are major issues that I see as stumbling blocks between the two sides.

[elysian]

Lutherans believe that if a person can subscribe to the Ecumenical Creeds (http://www.elca.org/co/creeds/creeds.html), then that person falls into what we would call orthodox (note the small "o", not to be confused with Eastern Orthodox) Christian belief. The Ecumenical Creeds are the Apostles', Nicene and Athanasian Creeds.

This doesn't mean that all Christians believe exactly the same things, but you can be fairly confident you are a Christian if you can confess and believe what's in the Creeds. The Creeds are summaries of Christian belief that were derived from Scripture.

[Jezz]

Hello there.
Doing an essay on Orthodoxy and Heresy in early church history and contemporary society.
I have heard various people say that Catholics and Protestants can see a basic form of 'orthodoxy' which they say they can agree on. Is this view echoed in prominent Church leaders? Links/Book recommendations much appreciated!!!!
Hi Andy,

The short answer is no. Some Protestant groups might acknowledge Catholics as orthodox (as elysian noted - you should not use a capital O, as that refers specifically to a group of denominations like the Greek and Russian Orthodox). But in Roman Catholic theology, orthodoxy is by definition Roman Catholicism.

This does not mean that the RCC consider other churches to be non-Christian. They simply believe that the other Chrisian churches are not fully orthodox - they do not possess the fullness of truth.

As for links and recommendations - well, you can't do much better than going to the source. The Vatican web site has some stuff like a Catholic Catechism and the Vatican II documentation. The one that is most relevant from Vatican II is called Lumen Gentium (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html) and discusses the nature of the Church from a Roman Catholic perspective.

[Amazing Rando]

I've got a more ecumenical view. I consider the Apostles' creed to be my backbone of belief. Anyone who subscribes fully to the apostles creed (including its original intent) is orthodox in my opinion.

[George Murphy]

I don't know that there is a common ground between us ... it comes close - the trinity, the virgin birth, the divinity of Christ, etc, etc. But where the rubber meets the road, and whether they want to admit it or not, Catholicism teaches a works-righteousness; moreover I think most prots have an issue with catholics over the borderline, if not out and out, idolotry often ascribed to Mary and the "saints". I don't know that most protestants would want to cross that bridge, those are major issues that I see as stumbling blocks between the two sides.Your statements about "works-righteousness" and "idolatry" are considerably overstated. On the former issue you should look at the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification" between the RCC and the churches of the Lutheran World Federation. This can be found at http://www.elca.org/ea/Ecumenical/romancatholic/jddj/jddj.html .

The following statement (in paragraph 15) should especially be noted.

"Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works."

JDDJ doesn't resolve all the issues connected with justification but it certainly makes it clear that RC teaching is not crass "works righteousness." There are of course many RCs who hope to get to heaven by good works, but that's true of other churches as well. That's the natural religion of sinful human beings.

As far as the saints are concerned see the papers from Round 8 of the RC-Lutheran dialogue in the US, The One Mediator, The Saints, and Mary, edited by H. George Anderson, J. Francis Stafford and Joseph A. Burgess (Augsburg, 1992).

The serious differences that remain between Lutherans and RCs have to do with issues of ministry and authority in the church. Other "Protestants" will have different views. (Like many Lutherans, I am not entirely comfortable with the Protestant label.)

Shalom,
George

[elysian]

Your statements about "works-righteousness" and "idolatry" are considerably overstated. On the former issue you should look at the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification" between the RCC and the churches of the Lutheran World Federation. This can be found at http://www.elca.org/ea/Ecumenical/romancatholic/jddj/jddj.html .

The following statement (in paragraph 15) should especially be noted.

"Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works."

JDDJ doesn't resolve all the issues connected with justification but it certainly makes it clear that RC teaching is not crass "works righteousness." There are of course many RCs who hope to get to heaven by good works, but that's true of other churches as well. That's the natural religion of sinful human beings.

As far as the saints are concerned see the papers from Round 8 of the RC-Lutheran dialogue in the US, The One Mediator, The Saints, and Mary, edited by H. George Anderson, J. Francis Stafford and Joseph A. Burgess (Augsburg, 1992).

The serious differences that remain between Lutherans and RCs have to do with issues of ministry and authority in the church. Other "Protestants" will have different views. (Like many Lutherans, I am not entirely comfortable with the Protestant label.)

Shalom,
George

George, thank you for pointing this out. My mother is RC and she and I have gone through much of this dialogue, including many discussions on the role of works and faith vs. works, etc. as well as the necessity of doing penance. I am thankful that I can pray and worship with my mother as a fellow Christian even though as a Lutheran I cannot consider myself to be under the authority of the Pope or subject to the leadership of the RC. In some ways the divisions are rather sad- she may take Communion in my church (as in my church the table is open to all baptized Christians, with the understanding that Christ is present in, with and through the elements of bread and wine) yet I may not take Communion in her church. I agree that we have come to a far greater understanding in the past 20 years. I have a Lutheran catechism book from 1946 I bought out of curiosity on e-Bay and there are several statements in it that are rather hostile to RC's (and to Reformed for that matter.) At least we have come to a point where we can confess a common faith in Jesus Christ. The starting point for me would be agreement on believing the statements in the Creeds.

As to the "priesthood of all believers" and vocation, this is an area in which RC's are becoming more and more open to, especially as they do not have enough ordained clergy to meet the needs of their parishes.

[spl_cadet]

There's also my article on Catholicism and works here. (www.catholic-cadet.com/apol/works.html)



As to the "priesthood of all believers" and vocation, this is an area in which RC's are becoming more and more open to, especially as they do not have enough ordained clergy to meet the needs of their parishes.

While, if memory serves, there is the belief in the priesthood of all believers, there is a higher degree of priesthood, those who are ordained. Letting the laity perform the sacraments, aside from baptism (in an emergency) or marriage (where, in the Latin Church, the sacrament is conferred by the bride and groom), is impossible under Catholic dogma.

As to whether there is a basic form of orthodoxy that Catholic and Protestans can agree on, there is. However, this is simply a bare-bones, superficial belief of the Nicene Creed. Anything more than that, such as looking at what the drafters of the creed meant by certain phrases, and Protestants won't agree.

[George Murphy]

As to whether there is a basic form of orthodoxy that Catholic and Protestans can agree on, there is. However, this is simply a bare-bones, superficial belief of the Nicene Creed. Anything more than that, such as looking at what the drafters of the creed meant by certain phrases, and Protestants won't agree.I suggest that you look at the first of the Lutheran-RC dialogues in the US, "The Status of the Nicene Creed as Dogma of the Church." This can be found in Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue I - III, edited by Paul C. Empie and T. Austin Murphy (Augsburg, n.d.). (This is probably also available from some RC source but I don't have that information.) The reason that this was chosen as the topic for the first dialogue (1965) was that it was anticipated that there would not be significant disagreement on the topic, and the Summary Statement (pp.31-32) confirms that this was the case.

As far as Lutherans are concerned, your statement "Protestants won't agree" is untrue. The significant agreements that were reached on other topics, including Baptism (Dialogue II), Eucharist (III & IV) and other topics, and especially the international agreement on justification to which I referred, which was not only agreed to by the participating theolgians but formally approved by the Vatican and the churches of the Lutheran World Federation, are also significant. Again restricting my attention to Lutheran-RC relations, your claim is without merit.

Shalom,
George

[AndyN]

This is all very good. I have some evidence for the viewpoint in my essay that there has arisen a general consensus in the late 20th century that a common orthodoxy is possible, although perhaps quite 'bare'. It's interesting that the creeds are used for this. Is 'lutherian' a reference to the specific Protestant denomination, or protestantism as a whole?

[George Murphy]

This is all very good. I have some evidence for the viewpoint in my essay that there has arisen a general consensus in the late 20th century that a common orthodoxy is possible, although perhaps quite 'bare'. It's interesting that the creeds are used for this. Is 'lutherian' a reference to the specific Protestant denomination, or protestantism as a whole?By "Lutheran" I mean churches that subscribe to the Confessions of the Lutheran Church - specifically, the Augsburg Confession and Luther's Small Catechism. Other protestant churches - especially those of the Anglican communion - have been in dialogues with the RCC & EO Church, as well as withone another, but I'm not as well able to comment on them. There is also the "Baptism, Eucharist and Ministry" statement of the WCC.

Not all Lutheran churches - and especially the more conservative ones, have accepted JDDJ. In the United States, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (which is a member of the Lutheran World Federation) has accepted it. The ELCA is in communion with the Episcopal Church in the USA, 3 Reformed bodies, and the Moravian Church.

Shalom,
George