Wycliffe heresies

[spl_cadet]

Here's some intersting heresies of Wycliffe that I found condemned at the Council of Constance:
Every person is God.
Every creature is God.
Every being is everywhere, since every being is God.
God ought to obey the devil… It is against sacred scripture for ecclesiastics to have possessions… A prelate excommunicating a cleric who has appealed to the king or the king's council is thereby a traitor to the king and the kingdom… Members of religious orders are not members of the Christian religion… Universities, places of study, colleges, degrees and academic exercises in these institutions were introduced by a vain pagan spirit and benefit the church as little as does the devil… Oaths taken to confirm civil commerce and contracts between people are unlawful…God does not approve that anyone be judged or condemned by civil law… God cannot annihilate anything, nor increase or diminish the world, but he can create souls up to a certain number, and not beyond it.

But hey, he translated the Bible into Really Old English, so his absurd heresies don't matter at all! :ahem:

[bar Jonah]

I'm not disputing any of it (or accepting it at face value either) .... just curious if you would provide some backing for those claims about Wycliff.

Arigato in advance.

[spl_cadet]

I'm not disputing any of it (or accepting it at face value either) .... just curious if you would provide some backing for those claims about Wycliff.

Arigato in advance.

The council says that the first three came from the Oxford condemnations of his works. The others came from the council's condemnations of his works. Citation was apparently an unknown art back then.

[bar Jonah]

Alright, but where are you getting any of this? I have no stake in Wycliffe, I don't care either way. But you're making accusations without even a biased source, much less a relatively neutral one. Did you get it out of a book? Website? Some priest? Where?

I can hardly take hold of what you're saying and convey it to others if my only source is... you. (No offense. LOL)

[Dee Dee Warren]

and does that mean he could not translate?

Thayer is a Unitarian heretic (denied the deity of Christ) yet his Greek work is well respected

[spl_cadet]

Alright, but where are you getting any of this? I have no stake in Wycliffe, I don't care either way. But you're making accusations without even a biased source, much less a relatively neutral one. Did you get it out of a book? Website? Some priest? Where?

As I said, it comes from the Council of Constance. Do a google search, you'll find the records.


DDW, it was simply an interesting observation of mine based on the fact that Protestants frequently treat him as though he were some sort of übersaint and that it was a mean and evil Rome that condemned him and his works.

[Dee Dee Warren]

okay

[bar Jonah]

and does that mean he could not translate?

Thayer is a Unitarian heretic (denied the deity of Christ) yet his Greek work is well respected
I disagree. I would not trust someone like that for translation. They may indeed get it right... but bias is a serious issue in translation, and even at best, it gives the appearance of impropriety.


As I said, it comes from the Council of Constance. Do a google search, you'll find the records.


DDW, it was simply an interesting observation of mine based on the fact that Protestants frequently treat him as though he were some sort of übersaint and that it was a mean and evil Rome that condemned him and his works.
Ahhhh, so you spout off a claim in the OP, and leave us to do the work, even when you're asked for more info. Okay, just checking.

[spl_cadet]

Ahhhh, so you spout off a claim in the OP, and leave us to do the work, even when you're asked for more info. Okay, just checking.

It's known as "I'm tired, I don't feel like regrabbing the link, and it'll take you all of 5 seconds on google."

[Dee Dee Warren]

Ahhhh, so you spout off a claim in the OP, and leave us to do the work, even when you're asked for more info. Okay, just checking.
Are you throwing out all of your nonX9 translations?

[spl_cadet]

Wycliffe is condemned in Sessions 8 and 15. (http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum16.htm)

[bar Jonah]

Wycliffe is condemned in Sessions 8 and 15. (http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum16.htm)
Is this then still an allegation from some enemy of Wycliffe's? You don't actually have any material from Wycliffe that shows this? That's not the most neutral source... Again, I'm not invested in Wycliffe in the least; I'm just interested in getting to the truth.

[bar Jonah]

Are you throwing out all of your nonX9 translations?
Ah, Dee Dee, you know quite well that's not the case.

But using what you know to be an imperfect translation from someone with whom you disagree on secondary issues.... is a far cry from relying on the translation from someone who is a heretic and an unbeliever. Like I said, even if they might have got it right, we can't trust them.

I don't know if Wycliffe fit that description; just responding to your point, in general.

[Dee Dee Warren]

We don't know the beliefs of persons who work on our translations - there could be a few heretics thrown in.

One thing I will say for Thayer is that he acknowledges words that teach the divinity of Christ, he just doesn't believe it. Some secondary issues in translation can be just as bad because they are more subtle. the gender neutrality issue and feminism is a big issue in translation

[bar Jonah]

Fair enough. You go you way, and I'll go mine. :riblack:

[Contarini]

Here's some intersting heresies of Wycliffe that I found condemned at the Council of Constance:
Every person is God.
Every creature is God.
Every being is everywhere, since every being is God.
God ought to obey the devil… It is against sacred scripture for ecclesiastics to have possessions… A prelate excommunicating a cleric who has appealed to the king or the king's council is thereby a traitor to the king and the kingdom… Members of religious orders are not members of the Christian religion… Universities, places of study, colleges, degrees and academic exercises in these institutions were introduced by a vain pagan spirit and benefit the church as little as does the devil… Oaths taken to confirm civil commerce and contracts between people are unlawful…God does not approve that anyone be judged or condemned by civil law… God cannot annihilate anything, nor increase or diminish the world, but he can create souls up to a certain number, and not beyond it.

But hey, he translated the Bible into Really Old English, so his absurd heresies don't matter at all! :ahem:
Wycliff didn't believe that everyone is God or that God ought to obey the devil. It's hard for me to believe that the Council really claimed that he did believe this, but if you've read the actual decrees of the Council I'll bow to your superior knowledge. If they did claim anything so silly, they didn't know what they were talking about. Some of the others make sense as being Wycliffe's actual teaching, particularly the condemnation of religious orders and the stress on royal authority as opposed to the Church.

In Christ,

Edwin