Why was the crufixion necessary?

[Alien]

I understand the rules for this area to be that I can ask questions, then further questions when answers are given but not argue, correct? If so, I am in the right place.

As I am an atheist, I should probably emphasise that I am looking for information here, and I am genuinely interested in what you have to say. Obviously my interest is in what you believe rather than what is, but hopefully you will be kind enough to respond anyway. :) I will proceed from the position of someone that believes in God, but is looking for some explanations of Christian dogma.

OK, heres the subject. I have always been puzzled by the supposed necessity for the torture and death of Jesus in order to enable God to forgive us. Granting that we sin, and further granting that God can't be expected to simply put up with it, why cannot God demand a sincere repentance and a genuine attempt at following the rules thereafter, following which He simply forgives us? What does the sacrifice of Jesus add to this?

I look forward to your responses.

[dizzle]

Alien, let me get this started with some thoughts. God is both just and loving. Justice must be satisfied. While simply fogiving satisfies love, it does not satisfy justice. Similarly in our judicial system, we recognize that a mere sorry adn promise to do better does not satisfy justice. Miller has done some excellent work on this, I will try and find the links for you.

And you are right this is the place for these discussions. I think I will mention this in Religion 101 as the place for such things.

[Alien]

Yesterday @ 07:16 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=86815#post86815)
Dee Dee Warren:
Alien, let me get this started with some thoughts. God is both just and loving. Justice must be satisfied. While simply fogiving satisfies love, it does not satisfy justice. Similarly in our judicial system, we recognize that a mere sorry adn promise to do better does not satisfy justice. Miller has done some excellent work on this, I will try and find the links for you.

Thanks, Dee Dee.

You've made me realise I left out the punishment aspect from what I wrote (though not from my thoughts about this). So I'll add a subsidiary question: How does punishing someone else for my crime satisfy justice? Our judicial system does not allow a volunteer to serve a convicted criminal's sentence in his place. Nor does it seem morally right that this should be allowed.

If we compare the "deal" from the sinner's perspective, there's little difference between simple forgiveness (following sincere repentance) and punishing Jesus. In both cases the sinner "get off" without punishment.

[Jade]

Let me see if I can shed any light on this.

First of all God tells us that sin separates us from God (who is without sin) just as water separates from oil. They just do not mix. God and his justice cannot stand to be in the presence of sin.

Secondly God decreed that the wages of sin is death. Not only is this true in regards to punishment but also as it relates to natural consequences. God is not arbitrary in telling us that certain behaviors are sin. (Note: Now any sin (i.e. deviation from perfection) results in death. That is why Adam and Eve began to age and die. It's why all humans die.) God also tells us that no one is perfect except God. All have sinned and fallen short of perfection.

However, God also is merciful and had (and has) love for His creation even though they turned their back on Him. God did not want for his fallen creatures to be separated from Him. So He made a way for both his mercy and his justice to be fully satisfied.

God sent his Son, Jesus, to become a man (incarnation) just as we are. Jesus was born of a virgin (so as not to inherit sin from a earthly father). Jesus lived a perfect life here on earth in spite of strong temptation. Then Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice. He became sin for us. God put all of our sin on Jesus, God turned his back on Jesus (as God cannot look at sin), and then Jesus died.

This is only half of the picture. God raised Jesus from the dead to prove that sin had indeed been conquered. For only in resurrection could Jesus be the substitute for the whole human race. A subtitution that was once and for all people.

Now to all who accept this substitution, God places their sin on Jesus; and in return God gives Jesus' righteousness to us. Perfection isn't just the lack of sin, but also a life of right standing with God. Anything we, ourselves could call righteousness is nothing but filthy rags when compared to Jesus' righteousness. So from that point on even though the Christian may falter and mess up, all that God sees is Jesus' righteousness.

So a Christian isn't expected never mess up, but rather to learn about God and to love him for such a great gift of substitution -- a gift that could never be earned or repaid.

I hope this helps in your search, Alien. :smile:

[Alien]

OK, round two of questions, hopefully harder this time. :smile:

Perhaps I should say that I'm wanting to go past simple statements such as have been offered so far (not to disparage what has been written, its a good starting point). What I would like is an explanation that makes sense to me.

Yesterday @ 02:51 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=87405#post87405)
Jade:
First of all God tells us that sin separates us from God (who is without sin) just as water separates from oil. They just do not mix. God and his justice cannot stand to be in the presence of sin.

If Jesus is God, how did he stand to be around all the human sinners?


God sent his Son, Jesus, to become a man (incarnation) just as we are. Jesus was born of a virgin (so as not to inherit sin from a earthly father).

Why didn't he inherit sin from Mary? Is the Catholic concept of the immaculate conception necessary?

How is it possible to inherit sin? Aren't babies innocent?

Jesus lived a perfect life here on earth in spite of strong temptation. Then Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice. He became sin for us. God put all of our sin on Jesus, God turned his back on Jesus (as God cannot look at sin), and then Jesus died.

How can anyone "become sin"?

How can past and future sin be put on someone in present time?

In fact, how can sin be transferred from one person to another at all?

(I see sin as a description of an act (sinful), rather than some kind of object. In other words, I don't believe that it is possible to say "here is a lump of sin".)

This is only half of the picture. God raised Jesus from the dead to prove that sin had indeed been conquered. For only in resurrection could Jesus be the substitute for the whole human race.

I don't understand this.

Why was the resurrection necessary to prove sin had been conquered?

Why was the resurrection necessary to make Jesus a substitute?

Now to all who accept this substitution, God places their sin on Jesus; and in return God gives Jesus' righteousness to us. Perfection isn't just the lack of sin, but also a life of right standing with God. Anything we, ourselves could call righteousness is nothing but filthy rags when compared to Jesus' righteousness. So from that point on even though the Christian may falter and mess up, all that God sees is Jesus' righteousness.

You mean that Christians kind of hide behind Jesus and God can't see past him? How is this possible?

I hope this helps in your search, Alien. :smile:

Its a good start, and I appreciate your taking the trouble to answer my questions.

[Xmansmommy]

Yesterday @ 08:36 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=88466#post88466)
Alien:

OK, round two of questions, hopefully harder this time. :smile:

Perhaps I should say that I'm wanting to go past simple statements such as have been offered so far (not to disparage what has been written, its a good starting point). What I would like is an explanation that makes sense to me.



If Jesus is God, how did he stand to be around all the human sinners?

Alien, you ask some very valid questions. And thought provoking as well! Jesus, during His earthly ministry, was God in the flesh. He took upon Himself a body and made Himself lower than the angels in position, so that He could taste death for every man. I believe by being born in the world, He had some attributes of God the Father as a grown man, but certainly learned and grew in wisdom and stature. He could stand in the presence of sin because He was also a man.

Why didn't he inherit sin from Mary? Is the Catholic concept of the immaculate conception necessary?
The thought that comes to my mind as I read your questions regarding inheriting sin from Mary, is that God made it pretty clear that sin is inherited from Adam which would be the male. (Romans 5:12, 17 & 19)...not from the female. That's why Jesus did not have a biological father.


How is it possible to inherit sin? Aren't babies innocent?

As for babies being innocent...I would just say that they may not have sinned, but they have inherited the sin nature (since sin is in these fleshly bodies) and therefore would sin, eventually. Just in the same manner that your child would inherit your DNA, so do babies inherit the sin nature.

How can anyone "become sin"?

How can past and future sin be put on someone in present time?

In fact, how can sin be transferred from one person to another at all?

(I see sin as a description of an act (sinful), rather than some kind of object. In other words, I don't believe that it is possible to say "here is a lump of sin".)


Our sins were imputed to Him, as His righteousness is imputed to us, just as Jade said in her post. It was a debt that was paid long after, and long before, many sins had been committed. A ransom to be testified of in due time, but ever in the mind of God, as we see types and shadows all throughout the OT. He was imputed our punishment ...our death, our burial and also our ressurection, as he arose victorious for us after 3 days.


I don't understand this.

Why was the resurrection necessary to prove sin had been conquered?

Why was the resurrection necessary to make Jesus a substitute?



You mean that Christians kind of hide behind Jesus and God can't see past him? How is this possible?



Its a good start, and I appreciate your taking the trouble to answer my questions.

I'm still pondering the other quesions that I have not addressed, and don't have time to sufficiently address now. Not that I know the answers anyway...But I pray that these answers might help in some way. May you be blessed as you seek to understand.

In His Stead,
Linda

[djdavo]

Hi Alien! :smile:

just wanted to add a little biblical historical perspective, which may help clarify the 'why' part: a blood sacrifice was required throughout history to 'atone' for sins of people. the very first blod sacrifice was God himself killing an animal to cloth adam and eve right after they sinned and hid from him ('covered' them, as it were)

jews sacrificed animals (spilled their blood) to cover up their sins, as well.

instead of all of us having to follow a bunch of rules and sacrifice doves and lambs and such to 'cover' our sin today, Jesus came to be the permanent, final sacrifice for all of us.

why- sin entered the world through the sin of one man (adam), through the flesh,as it were. sin had to be conquered in the same manner: by the flesh (Jesus being born a man). by a sinless man.

as far as why resurrection: yes, it shows that Jesus (in the fleshly body) conquered sin and death for all of us.

here's a good link to other resources:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/jesuschrist.asp

[Alien]

Thanks to everyone that took the time to respond.

It's all very interesting .....

:smile:

[Xmansmommy]

You are very welcome Alien! Thanks for bringing up such an interesting topic. :thumb:

[djdavo]

you're welcome, alien :teeth: