Eternal security makes no sense to Rando!

[Amazing Rando]

None whatsoever. I can appreciate the idea of God's providence being in control of everything, but the idea that once you've accepted Christ, all is said and done just doesn't seem to me to hold true to the bible. Or to my real-life experiences, for that matter. I find it very difficult to believe that all apostates from the Christian faith "weren't really saved" to begin with.

[spiritmech]

There he goes again, talking in the 3rd person. :)

[razzendahcuben]

To deny eternal security is to say that salvation is dependent in some way upon man's puny works. True believers, as I hope you know, bear fruit. At the same time, I am sure that some true believers did become what we may consider apostates, but were still really saved. God will never let go, he is a jealous God.

[bar Jonah]

Did I hear you right, Robert? Did you just say you base your theology partly on personal experience? Even more specifically, a doctrine concerning life after death, which we can't even observe directly? Even in the face of Paul saying that a man who doesn't even have faith anymore is still saved?

[Trout]

AR,

Are you saying "Saved_by_Grace_Maintained_by_Works?"

[Amazing Rando]

To deny eternal security is to say that salvation is dependent in some way upon man's puny works.

Not nessesarily.


True believers, as I hope you know, bear fruit. At the same time, I am sure that some true believers did become what we may consider apostates, but were still really saved. God will never let go, he is a jealous God.

I just don't think so. It's inconceivable to me that God would embrace someone who has turned his back on his gift of eternal life, even after he had already accepted it.

[Amazing Rando]

Did I hear you right, Robert? Did you just say you base your theology partly on personal experience?

No- I allow my experience to color my interpretation of the Bible- as long as it doesn't clearly contradict it.

Even more specifically, a doctrine concerning life after death, which we can't even observe directly? Even in the face of Paul saying that a man who doesn't even have faith anymore is still saved?

I don't think that's what Paul was saying at all -nor do I have any idea what passage you're referring to. Simply put, based upon what I know from the Bible- that any who embrace Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will be saved- if someone rejects the Lord, then the Lord will in turn reject him.

[Amazing Rando]

AR,

Are you saying "Saved_by_Grace_Maintained_by_Works?"

No, I'm saying that if someone turns his back on God and Jesus Christ, God will in turn turn his back on that person.

All three of you guys have assumed I'm saying something that I'm not. Perhaps I should have been more specific in my OP. :tongue:

[Xmansmommy]

Rando, I personally don't believe it would or could happen easily, but I do believe a Christian can walk away from God. I think we are secure as long as we have faith. Once we completely give up placing our faith in Him, we lose our salvation. Even still, I think He will always try to woo us back to Him. It's a matter of, will we respond in love or not? Just my two cents. :shy:

[Trout]

No, I'm saying that if someone turns his back on God and Jesus Christ, God will in turn turn his back on that person.

Scary, so it's up to us to remain in a state of grace.

[Amazing Rando]

Rando, I personally don't believe it would or could happen easily, but I do believe a Christian can walk away from God. I think we are secure as long as we have faith. Once we completely give up placing our faith in Him, we lose our salvation. Even still, I think He will always try to woo us back to Him. It's a matter of, will we respond in love or not? Just my two cents. :shy:

Ya know what Xmom? That's exactly my view as well. :wink: Thanks for chiming in!

[GoBahnsen]

Rando: "I just don't think so. It's inconceivable to me that God would embrace someone who has turned his back on his gift of eternal life, even after he had already accepted it."

Of course you're bothered based on your presupposition of conditional election.

[Amazing Rando]

Scary, so it's up to us to remain in a state of grace.

Just check out Xmom's post above. She stated my views exactly. It's a really, really hard thing to do to lose one's salvation, and it takes a deliberate act of the will to to so as well.

Take a look at Dan Barker- preacher turned atheist. I can't think of any way I could be convinced that he and all other apostates like him in the world, just "weren't really saved." Sure, this is the case for some of them- they have a superficial understanding of the good knews that they later reject, but for others, the case is quite different.

[Amazing Rando]

Rando: "I just don't think so. It's inconceivable to me that God would embrace someone who has turned his back on his gift of eternal life, even after he had already accepted it."

Of course you're bothered based on your presupposition of conditional election.

Go Bahnsen, Go! :tongue:

Most likely, yes. And I'd love for you to help me get to the heart of the matter! :teeth: See my posts in this thread for my primary objection- that of the fact of apostates. Especially with Scripture so ambiguous on the matter.

[Trout]

Just check out Xmom's post above. She stated my views exactly. It's a really, really hard thing to do to lose one's salvation, and it takes a deliberate act of the will to to so as well.

Take a look at Dan Barker- preacher turned atheist. I can't think of any way I could be convinced that he and all other apostates like him in the world, just "weren't really saved." Sure, this is the case for some of them- they have a superficial understanding of the good knews that they later reject, but for others, the case is quite different.

But still, don't you think that implied in your view is the idea that we must maintain a state of salvation?

[Amazing Rando]

But still, don't you think that implied in your view is the idea that we must maintain a state of salvation?

We must maintain belief and discipleship, yeah. But you're not alone in that endeavor.

The reason I find this to be the case is not just my experience as you might suspect- I see this theme articulated time and time again in the Bible- persevere! Don't fall away! Etc. And no, RI, not just in the "circumcision." It's in Paul as well.

[Trout]

We must maintain belief and discipleship, yeah. But you're not alone in that endeavor.

The reason I find this to be the case is not just my experience as you might suspect- I see this theme articulated time and time again in the Bible- persevere! Don't fall away! Etc. And no, RI, not just in the "circumcision." It's in Paul as well.

So then we are saved by a combination of God's grace and our perseverance.

Seems to be contrary to the verses you've chosen in your signature.

[Amazing Rando]

No- we're saved by grace alone through faith- that's what I'm saying! If we stop having faith, I don't think God's going to save us. Simple as that.

[Trout]

No- we're saved by grace alone through faith- that's what I'm saying! If we stop having faith, I don't think God's going to save us. Simple as that.


But I'm pretty sure that our faith is a gift from God also AR:

For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not by works lest anyone should boast.

So if faith is a gift from God, why would He take it away?

[Xavier]

But I'm pretty sure that our faith is a gift from God also AR:

For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not by works lest anyone should boast.

So if faith is a gift from God, why would He take it away?

Maybe grace is the gift from God.

I would argue that the difference between the views present at the moment would go back to the basic presupposition on the action of grace in the life of a believer.

If one holds to conditional election, then eternal security does not follow.
If one holds to unconditional election, then eternal security may or may not follow. (Leaving the possibility that God may need apostates for some reason)

Yours,
Xavier

[bar Jonah]

No- we're saved by grace alone through faith- that's what I'm saying! If we stop having faith, I don't think God's going to save us. Simple as that.
You think it's your faith that is saving you?

[GoBahnsen]

No- we're saved by grace alone through faith- that's what I'm saying! If we stop having faith, I don't think God's going to save us. Simple as that.Certainly from our side of things, I can see what you're saying. But what I'm trusting in is for God to save me, not my faith and making sure I keep it up. I'm trusting in God to be greater than my faith or lack thereof. And I have to believe that this confidence is Holy Spirit produced.

Just like faith that the Bible is God's Word is Holy Spirit produced. You can give a person a ton of evidence to believe the Bible is God's Word, but ultimately the difference between the true believer and the false is the activity of the Holy Spirit.

If my faith is not Holy Spirit produced then it is not genuine and I might believe for a while and fade away. Either way, I wasn't saved if my faith is not produced by God's Spirit.

So it is God who saves from beginning to end. Author and Finisher of my faith. If I author my faith it is nothing and will not be saved. If God Author's my faith, He will sustain it and Finish it. Make sense?

[Ormly]

No- we're saved by grace alone through faith- that's what I'm saying! If we stop having faith, I don't think God's going to save us. Simple as that.
What you are not seeing is that you are speaking of two faith's. One is yours that leads to Him for salvation and the other is His that He is the author of that you are now to live by.

Here are three examples of one's faith unto their salvation:

Mark 5:34 (KJV)
And he said unto her, Daughter, your faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
Mark 10:52 (KJV)
And Jesus said unto him, Go your way; your faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
Luke 7:50 (KJV)
And he said to the woman, your faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

There is nothing metaphysical in this of their faith whereby God granted them something that they believe. They had a need. They cried out. God has always worked that way throughout the Bible. In this instance they simply believed Jesus when they saw/heard. Their need was great and hope was kindled within them by His words and example. Read Ps.107.

Here is one from Paul after the fact:

Galatians 2:20 (KJV)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Some translations read "in the Son of God". I'll take either way to be something I am responsible for, to protect and be built up in. It's His faith in me that produces the works that please Him. It's the only faith that will. My obligation is to "abide-abandoned in Him." The question for all who claim Him is: "How much do you/I love Him?" If you don't know or know how -- learn, because that is the key to the door. No one gets in unless he/she has the key.

When I fail in this I thank God He is faithful to forgive and restore. He know's me.:smile: :smile:

[seer]

You are quite right Rando. Jesus taught exactly this. That some can have faith then fall away:

Luke 8:11-13

"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away."

Notice that in context, the belief Christ is speaking of is belief unto salvation. And some do believe "for a while." There is simply no honest way to dismiss this text.

[Ormly]

You are quite right Rando. Jesus taught exactly this. That some can have faith then fall away:

Luke 8:11-13

"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away."

Notice that in context, the belief Christ is speaking of is belief unto salvation. And some do believe "for a while." There is simply no honest way to dismiss this text.That's an excellent text that goes hand in hand with what I posted. I hope you see that as well. :smile: :smile:

[smaller]

Perhaps Rando, Seer, or any other adherent of "temporal security" can provide one named human example of any believer who lost their "eternal security" and is said to be going to the Lake of Fire???

One would think that a named example for such a thing is in order.

Unquestionably one can fall prey to "the devil" after "salvation." This does not equate to "eternal loss" of same.

[geebob]

Did you just say you base your theology partly on personal experience?

If our experience plays no role in our theology, if it is all shaped merely by scripture and our "faith", then we run the risk of living in a fantasy world. We are not a tabula rosa for scripture. that is an evangelical/protestant myth.

The fact is, scripture helps us interpret our experience, but once you realize that, you must understand that that which is interpreted necessarily makes constraints in the possibilities for interpretation. If it were not so, then there would be no way that reality is (can you say, postmodernism?, or more accurately, ultramodernism?). Thus those constraints make for a reflexive range of interpretations back on the paradigm that was originally doing the interpreting.

If Rando can't reconsile his experience with your interpretation of scripture, then then it could be that his interpretation of his experience is wrong. But that isn't the only reasonable possibility. It could be that your interpretation of scripture is wrong.

The idea that we should start with scripture is not only wrong. It is impossible. before we start reading scripture, we have already lived a life of learning and experience that will shape our understanding the first time we hear or read scripture.

But as for priority, there is none. We need to take them in parrallel. Without experience, we have nothing to apply scripture to, and hence, we have no basis for living our life by scripture.

[Ormly]

I don't understand enough of what you wrote to determine whether I agree or disgaree. Much to complicated for my wee brain to sort out in the time alotted me.

[smaller]

If our experience plays no role in our theology, if it is all shaped merely by scripture and our "faith", then we run the risk of living in a fantasy world. We are not a tabula rosa for scripture. that is an evangelical/protestant myth.

The fact is, scripture helps us interpret our experience, but once you realize that, you must understand that that which is interpreted necessarily makes constraints in the possibilities for interpretation. If it were not so, then there would be no way that reality is (can you say, postmodernism?, or more accurately, ultramodernism?). Thus those constraints make for a reflexive range of interpretations back on the paradigm that was originally doing the interpreting.

If Rando can't reconsile his experience with your interpretation of scripture, then then it could be that his interpretation of his experience is wrong. But that isn't the only reasonable possibility. It could be that your interpretation of scripture is wrong.

The idea that we should start with scripture is not only wrong. It is impossible. before we start reading scripture, we have already lived a life of learning and experience that will shape our understanding the first time we hear or read scripture.

But as for priority, there is none. We need to take them in parrallel. Without experience, we have nothing to apply scripture to, and hence, we have no basis for living our life by scripture.

geebob, I have not followed any of your presentations, but the logic you have applied here is quite exceptional.

[geebob]

ormly

To make things easy I'll just say that yes you agree and you'll be sending me pearls.

thanks in advance.

smaller, thanx

[Ormly]

ormly

To make things easy I'll just say that yes you agree and you'll be sending me pearls.

thanks in advance.
I believe, now help my unbelief.:wink:

[seer]

Perhaps Rando, Seer, or any other adherent of "temporal security" can provide one named human example of any believer who lost their "eternal security" and is said to be going to the Lake of Fire???

That is just silly Eel. The bible does not generally name those who go into the lake of fire. I would assume that Judas did - but scripture does not say that he is going into the lake of fire.

But I would say that these two would fit:

"Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme."

[smaller]

Perhaps Rando, Seer, or any other adherent of "temporal security" can provide one named human example of any believer who lost their "eternal security" and is said to be going to the Lake of Fire???
[quote]
That is just silly Eel. The bible does not generally name those who go into the lake of fire. I would assume that Judas did - but scripture does not say that he is going into the lake of fire.

Uh, that is my point seer. You and others have no problem promoting such eternal judgments, even when The Word is largely devoid of such actions measured to named people. I find such things stinkingly arrogant as you well know.

But I would say that these two would fit:

"Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme."

Shipwrecking ones faith and being tortured forever in fire are two different things Mr. J.

I do not deny the enemy exists IN MEN, and that those enemies can and do overcome a person, AS YOU WELL KNOW.

The Mantle of judging another named human being to be eternally tortured has not been granted to any member of mankind because sin remains in you as well, regardless of your external appearances.

In this equation then, your "eternal" judgment will remain false as it is not AS LOVE.

[themuzicman]

22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Notice the ongoing condition to reconciliation. (Why is this so hard?)

Michael

[seer]

Uh, that is my point seer. You and others have no problem promoting such eternal judgments, even when The Word is largely devoid of such actions measured to named people. I find such things stinkingly arrogant as you well know.

Eel, once again your problem is with the teachings of Christ - not me. It was Him that said that some can "believe for a while." And men will be in the lake of fire - men who reject Christ. Will it be eternal? Is it annihilation? Who knows. There is however no evidence that anybody ever comes out...

The Mantle of judging another named human being to be eternally tortured has not been granted to any member of mankind because sin remains in you as well, regardless of your external appearances.

Except I am justified by the blood of Christ by faith. Those not in Christ are lost. That is not me - it is scripture...

[geebob]

RightIdea, I geuss I want to discuss your last two points as well

Even more specifically, a doctrine concerning life after death, which we can't even observe directly?

Salvation and membership in the people of God isn't just about life or punishment after death. It involves the here and now as outlined in mathew 25. And if we can't be confident in the current status of the salvation of others, I find that very problematic for my own piety which is not just between me and God but is and should be facilitated by the church. As John 1 says, The word tabernacles amongst them. "you shall know them by their love". "You shall know them by their fruit."

If those who have been living a confident and fruitful life in God fall away because they never were saved, then I have to wonder if I am saved or if I will one day "fall away" because I never was saved but was only as decieved as they were. And you could say that I was wrong in psycologizing them so, but nevertheless, a christian who may occassionally have doubts is not necessarily helped but may be hurt by such a doctrine.

Furthermore, the idea of salvation involves more than merely escaping hell anyway (I already mentioned Matthew 25). Cornelius made Paul draw the conclusion that God does not show favoritism but accepts men in any nation who fear him and do what's right. A very strange conclusion if at that point in Cornelius life if he was headed to hell. And yet in the next chapter, we hear that such a conclusion was made before Cornelius would speak words "by which he would be saved".

Even in the face of Paul saying that a man who doesn't even have faith anymore is still saved?

who's that?


Ormly,

I'll give a further explanation of my post, but If you'd interact with it and say specifically what confuses you It would be easier for me to explain myself.

[smaller]

Uh, that is my point seer. You and others have no problem promoting such eternal judgments, even when The Word is largely devoid of such actions measured to named people. I find such things stinkingly arrogant as you well know.


Eel, once again your problem is with the teachings of Christ - not me.

Uh, Jesus made no such eternal judgments against any named person either, now did He J? Why don't you be at least honest and conceed a fact.


It was Him that said that some can "believe for a while."

Again, the temporal loss of faith is NEVER equated to the person involved with the eternal loss of salvation. Such a position does not exist as there is NO NAMED EXAMPLE.


And men will be in the lake of fire -

The observation will apply to this false belief as well seer. There is no named person in the entire Bible who is said to be going to the infamous Lake, or even threatened with such a fate.

So is it remotely possible that you could be mistaken here??? go figure.


men who reject Christ. Will it be eternal? Is it annihilation? Who knows.

The observation is quite secure seer. Your position in these matters is without specific merit on the basis on non-existence in the scriptures.

What I MIGHT see here Mr. SEEr, is the possibility that GRACE AND TRUTH has dropped into "our laps" the "opportunity" to make such ETERNAL JUDGMENTS against our "neighbors" to show us WHAT IS IN US. get it?

Grace and Truth is like THE LAW, only AMPLIFIED. The Law reveals SIN IN US. Grace and Truth has revealed SIN IN US to an even GREATER DEGREE, and sin has been caused by Grace and Truth now to appear IN US as THE FALSE ETERNAL JUDGMENT of our "neighbors" whom Jesus and The Law commanded us TO LOVE.


There is however no evidence that anybody ever comes out...

I have not abandoned the eternal damnation scriptures j. Just applied them where they RIGHTFULLY and CLEARLY are intended.

I agree that nothing that goes into said Lake come out. You know I made this argument vehemently before the "uknees" prior to acceptance of the position.

But in order to get named human beings OUT, or permanently IN, you must get them there first by SCRIPTURE.

Scripture has not measured YOU or any other MAN that position. It has measured the opportunity for you to make false judgment however, and that much is easily apparent.

If you saw clearly you would not condemn the innocent with the guilty.

The Mantle of judging another named human being to be eternally tortured has not been granted to any member of mankind because sin remains in you as well, regardless of your external appearances.


Except I am justified by the blood of Christ by faith. Those not in Christ are lost. That is not me - it is scripture...

I will tell you with a certainty that when you judge any other named person to be tortured or annihilated by The Word when no such Word exists, then it is NOT GOD who is speaking through you seer, because such a position does not exist in The Word.

[Ormly]

It was Him that said that some can "believe for a while."


[quote]Again, the temporal loss of faith is NEVER equated to the person involved with the eternal loss of salvation. Such a position does not exist as there is NO NAMED EXAMPLE.
<I can hardly contain myself>

What would have happened if, after believing she could be healed, the woman with the issue of blood had not gone to Jesus due to some change of heart/mind? What would she have missed out on and can it not be equated with the parable of the sower?
Do you remember how the story went, smaller and what Jesus to her? Suppose she somehow lost what she had before going to Him? -- for physical regeneration

[smaller]

[QUOTE]It was Him that said that some can "believe for a while."


<I can hardly contain myself>

What would have happened if, after believing she could be healed, the woman with the issue of blood had not gone to Jesus due to some change of heart/mind? What would she have missed out on and can it not be equated with the parable of the sower?
Do you remember how the story went, smaller and what Jesus to her? Suppose she somehow lost what she had before going to Him? -- for physical regeneration

As a reminder Jesus is both Author and Finisher OF FAITH.

His Faith has measured the righteousness of God to everyone, regardless of their INDIVIDUAL MERIT. (Romans 3:22 and 1 Timothy 4:10)

The justification of Jesus has come upon ALL regardless of their "current condition" of "having sin." (Romans 5:18)

[Ormly]

As a reminder Jesus is both Author and Finisher OF FAITH.
Only His own

[smaller]

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18

Your limits cannot overcome Love Ormly.

[Ormly]

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18

Your limits cannot overcome Love Ormly.
Overcome love, twister of words? How about self?

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Luke 8:11-13

"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away."

Notice that in context, the belief Christ is speaking of is belief unto salvation. And some do believe "for a while." There is simply no honest way to dismiss this text.Um, I guess I'm going to do something dishonest, then. I would reply that "receive with no root" implies a partial belief, they believed in the good part, but not in the difficult part.

John 6:64 "Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

Now this was spoken to disciples, people who had, in a sense, believed in Jesus. But Jesus says here "you do not believe." So I do think belief is spoken of in different senses in the Bible, sometimes meaning saving faith, and sometimes spurious faith, partial faith:

John 8:30-31,47 Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him. To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said "…The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

"Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme."I think here the faith is genuine, and the ship can be rebuilt. They are being handed over, for correction, I think, in expectation that they will learn their lesson here, and change, "so that they may be taught" implies salvation still, to me.

Smaller: As a reminder Jesus is both Author and Finisher OF FAITH.

Ormly: Only His own.Are you saying there was a time when Jesus didn't have faith?! Surely this means our faith, and Jesus starts it, and he will finish it, otherwise he comes under his own condemnation:

Luke 14:29-30 For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'

But I think Jesus is a better builder than that:

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Blessings,
Lee

[Ormly]

Now this was spoken to disciples, people who had, in a sense, believed in Jesus. But Jesus says here "you do not believe." So I do think belief is spoken of in different senses in the Bible, sometimes meaning saving faith, and sometimes spurious faith, partial faith:


Unregenerate disciples. Lets not convienently overlook that. In other words they were mere converts to Him. Unless you honestly can't make those simple distinctions .....?... and it would seem that way since you haven't.

Are you saying there was a time when Jesus didn't have faith?! Surely this means our faith, and Jesus starts it, and he will finish it, otherwise he comes under his own condemnation:

Never. It is His faith in you that He is the author of, not your faith.Gal 2.20 -- Yours only took you to Him, like the woman with the issue of blood. If you don't believe that then you are left with a contradiction since it was the faith she had when she went to Him for healing whereby she was healed. He said so. Who authored the faith in her but her?

[smaller]

Overcome love, twister of words? How about self?

Again Ormly, you really need to keep that accuser in check.

Your "activation" or non activation will not change the effectiveness of God's Work in Jesus Christ. Romans 5:18 gives the cause and the overcoming of it, and neither of them have anything to do with YOU.

[GoBahnsen]

Only His own
This Orm said in refererence to Jesus being the Author of faith (Heb 12:2). But virtually all the Bible translators refer to Jesus as being the Author of "our" faith. Why would Jesus Author His faith? Was Jesus saved by faith? No...He needed no Salvation. He is the giver of Salvation and the One who Author's our's, if we have it, and He Finishes it as well.

In John 10 we're told by Jesus that none can snatch us out of His hand or the Father's. That's pretty secure.
Heb 12:2

(ALT) looking with undivided attention to the Originator and Perfecter of [our] faith-Jesus-who, because of the joy being set before Him, endured a cross, having disregarded [the] shame, and has sat down at [the] right hand of the throne of God.

(ASV) looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

(BBE) Having our eyes fixed on Jesus, the guide and end of our faith, who went through the pains of the cross, not caring for the shame, because of the joy which was before him, and who has now taken his place at the right hand of God's seat of power.

(ESV) looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

(ISV) looking off to Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of the faith, who, in view of the joy set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

(KJV+) Looking872 unto1519 Jesus2424 the3588 author747 and2532 finisher5051 of our faith;4102 who3739 for473 the3588 joy5479 that was set before4295 him848 endured5278 the cross,4716 despising2706 the shame,152 and5037 is set down2523 at1722 the right hand1188 of the3588 throne2362 of God.2316

(LITV) looking to the Author and Finisher of our faith, Jesus, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, "and sat down at the right" of the throne of God. Psa. 110:1

(Webster) Looking to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

(WNT) simply fixing our gaze upon Jesus, our Prince Leader in the faith, who will also award us the prize. He, for the sake of the joy which lay before Him, patiently endured the cross, looking with contempt upon its shame, and afterwards seated Himself-- where He still sits--at the right hand of the throne of God.

(YLT) looking to the author and perfecter of faith--Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him--did endure a cross, shame having despised, on the right hand also of the throne of God did sit down;

[Trout]

GB,

You are a bible quoting maniac.

[GoBahnsen]

GB,

You are a bible quoting maniac.I'll take that as a compliment. I do find it consistent that the Arminians (some of them) on this board, do believe they can lose their salvation. Afterall, they start theirs, so they think.

And then they have a field day with all the exhortations to believers to not depart from the faith (as if true elect believers could). But they seem to ignore the powerful truth of Scripture that Salvation is of the Lord. He has mercy an whom He wills and whom He wills He hardens.

I remember as a young Arminian I was often taken up with youthful lusts and temptations. At times I would yield under the idea that "I'll repent later".
"After all...I'm young, I have time...I can eat some forbidden fruit, spit it out later and tell God I'm sorry."

I lacked the Reformed understanding that would have warned me that repentance is not within my own power ultimately. I thought, as an Arminian, I was in control of faith and repentance. Little care had I that God could have determined that I should not come back to Him. I played games with God, because I thought I could.

A proper understanding of faith and repentance causes one to value them above gold, yeah much fine gold. They are gifts of grace, never to be treated as if they are within our power to execute at our determined time and place.

The Arminians have God in a place of hoping we will "get it together" and stay that way. They fail to see adoption and God's determination to not lose any of His own. Because, after all, just like in adoption, the children don't go looking for their new parents...rather they are found by them. When God adopts us, He does so with a design to take us all the way, not half way.

[lee_merrill]

Lee: Now this was spoken to disciples, people who had, in a sense, believed in Jesus. But Jesus says here "you do not believe." So I do think belief is spoken of in different senses in the Bible...

Ormly: Unregenerate disciples. Lets not convienently overlook that. In other words they were mere converts to Him.Yes, I am saying "you do not believe … you are of your father the devil" cannot mean real saving faith in Jn. 8:30, and similarly in the soil that had no root.

Lee: Surely [Heb. 12:2] means our faith, and Jesus starts it, and he will finish it, otherwise he comes under his own condemnation:

Ormly: Never. It is His faith in you that He is the author of, not your faith. Gal 2.20 -- Yours only took you to Him, like the woman with the issue of blood. If you don't believe that then you are left with a contradiction since it was the faith she had when she went to Him for healing whereby she was healed. He said so. Who authored the faith in her but her?If it's faith that has a beginning, because it has an author, then our faith must be the focus, the Bible does speak in this way. Thus Jesus authored the faith of the woman who came for healing, it is literally "the author of faith" as you pointed out, so if you are reading this verse in this way, then Jesus must be the author of the woman's faith.

If I have faith that takes me to Jesus, that Jesus is not the author of, then Heb. 12:2 is false, no matter how you translate it.

And Jesus will complete the job his started! Let's not skip that part, that's the focus of this thread, if he begins to build, he will finish…

Blessings,
Lee

[GoBahnsen]

Where is Rando? He comes in here to Theo 201...author's a thread and now he's not going to finish it? I put up a good post last time and I got nothing.

[Amazing Rando]

Sorry! GB, I was out all day! I see this thread's blossomed a lot since I was here last. I'll go hunt for your post.

[Amazing Rando]

You think it's your faith that is saving you?

:ahem: No, I think that it is God's grace that is saving me through my faith.

[Amazing Rando]

Certainly from our side of things, I can see what you're saying. But what I'm trusting in is for God to save me, not my faith and making sure I keep it up. I'm trusting in God to be greater than my faith or lack thereof. And I have to believe that this confidence is Holy Spirit produced.

Just like faith that the Bible is God's Word is Holy Spirit produced. You can give a person a ton of evidence to believe the Bible is God's Word, but ultimately the difference between the true believer and the false is the activity of the Holy Spirit.

If my faith is not Holy Spirit produced then it is not genuine and I might believe for a while and fade away. Either way, I wasn't saved if my faith is not produced by God's Spirit.

Would you then argue that all apostates never had the Holy Spirit? Not even at their most faithful to God?

So it is God who saves from beginning to end. Author and Finisher of my faith. If I author my faith it is nothing and will not be saved. If God Author's my faith, He will sustain it and Finish it. Make sense?

Yes- I'm not disputing that. But we are saved by grace- through faith. If we end that faithful relationship, there's no means by which grace can work.

[Amazing Rando]

Perhaps Rando, Seer, or any other adherent of "temporal security" can provide one named human example of any believer who lost their "eternal security" and is said to be going to the Lake of Fire???

One would think that a named example for such a thing is in order.

Unquestionably one can fall prey to "the devil" after "salvation." This does not equate to "eternal loss" of same.

How about Judas? :nsm:

You don't have to look far. Just go into the Apologetics section and ask the former Christians there who have fallen away from their faith if they were "real believers." Almost all will answer in the affirmative. Are they lying to us?

[Arminian]

I'll take that as a compliment. I do find it consistent that the Arminians (some of them) on this board, do believe they can lose their salvation. Afterall, they start theirs, so they think.

And then they have a field day with all the exhortations to believers to not depart from the faith (as if true elect believers could). But they seem to ignore the powerful truth of Scripture that Salvation is of the Lord. He has mercy an whom He wills and whom He wills He hardens.

I remember as a young Arminian I was often taken up with youthful lusts and temptations. At times I would yield under the idea that "I'll repent later".
"After all...I'm young, I have time...I can eat some forbidden fruit, spit it out later and tell God I'm sorry."

I lacked the Reformed understanding that would have warned me that repentance is not within my own power ultimately. I thought, as an Arminian, I was in control of faith and repentance. Little care had I that God could have determined that I should not come back to Him. I played games with God, because I thought I could.

A proper understanding of faith and repentance causes one to value them above gold, yeah much fine gold. They are gifts of grace, never to be treated as if they are within our power to execute at our determined time and place.

The Arminians have God in a place of hoping we will "get it together" and stay that way. They fail to see adoption and God's determination to not lose any of His own. Because, after all, just like in adoption, the children don't go looking for their new parents...rather they are found by them. When God adopts us, He does so with a design to take us all the way, not half way.


Your strange and ironic (ironic in a number of ways you apparently are unaware of...) introspective ramblings aside, the traditional Arminian interpretation of Hebrews 12:2 is based upon grammar. In fact I've yet to see a Calvinist commentary make a grammatical argument for your interpretation. Calvinist commentaries usually either agree with the Arminian interpretation, assert your interpretation without grammatical and contextual support, or give an exegetical explanation using the grammar which is identical to the Arminian explanation and then throw in your explanation as "something that is also obviously true."

Also, as long as faith is being spoken of objectively instead of subjectively, "our" fits well with the Arminian explanation, even though it's not called for.

[seer]

They fail to see adoption and God's determination to not lose any of His own. Because, after all, just like in adoption, the children don't go looking for their new parents...rather they are found by them. When God adopts us, He does so with a design to take us all the way, not half way.

You mean the way God delt with His "people" His "children" His "sons" His "beloved" His "wife" in the OT. Most of them were lost... Sorry GB - none of it makes sense apart from LFW.

[Solly]

Funny how this goes back and forth; one minute salvation is in Christ assured in him and faith is his gift - or at least the grace that creates faith; next minute faith is what saves us and we can lose it. One minute he is tha anchor of our soul and hope, next, cos we have LFW, we can cast off anytime we choose.
I thought the whole point about the New Covenant was that we were not able to save ourselves, as Israel showed us under the Old Covenant, so God would ensure that we will be saved despite our failings. Israel were not spiritually saved, despite Seer's use of them, only a remnant was saved because God kept them.
The whole issue seems a bit more complex than the usual game of throwing proof texts at each other. One side gives the idea we can brush God aside even after all he has done, the other gives the impression that God won't go away no matter how bad we are.
If God has not made my salvation secure, and it is still based on my puny sinful attemtps to remain faithful - and you can talk about prevenient grace all you want, it all seems to be suspended on the pinnacle of the upsidedown pyramid - then where is the encouragement, where is the removing of burdens, and of the fear of failure?
Of course, it is right to accuse those who teach eternal salvation - or as I refer to it, the perseverance of the saints in holiness - if it leads towards antinomianism, with a reminder from Heb 12 about God's chastisements, and Paul's comments about building with hay, straw, and stubble. But AFAIC, the New Covenant was specifically dsigned to overcome my penchant for failure, both by his enabling grace and his forgiving grace. That some appear to apostatise is a warning that the whole thing can be fairly well mimicked, and I should work out my salvation in fear and trembling, but confident that it is God that works in me.

[Ormly]

:ahem: No, I think that it is God's grace that is saving me through my faith.
...and that's the correct way to see it. Any other way will lead to all sorts of "mystery" when dealing with other scripture. :smile:

[Ormly]

Rev. 22:11-14 (NASB-U)
"Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy." "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. [13] "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. What I read in the above is a whole lot of responsibility given to us as Christians and the judging of us will be proportional to the results in righteousness Christ finds when He judges in that day. Now if you say He is the author of 'our' faith that produces all that He requires of us doesn't it follow based on the above that, at the least, we are responsible for handling His faith in us? After all, it is His life we claim to have residing within us that He has given us. Why would we be given it if not to protect it; to cherish it? It is a marriage, is it not? If given to protect then it only follows that we can also "unprotect it" as spoken of above by the imply of "dirty robes". Doesn't that all speak of man's ability to choose? And doesn't it also speak to the fact that God sets before us life and death that we have a choice? Does it not follow that we can reject even after we accept the life of Christ given us by the indwelling? "Self" doesn't die easily and must always be in subjection to the Spirit we desire from above. How much do we love Him? Our allegiance to Him must always come out of a freewill or it's not allegiance in the slightest. See the wilderness experience of Jesus, our role model. :smile:

[smaller]

How about Judas? :nsm:

Unsubstantiated by the scriptures.

You don't have to look far. Just go into the Apologetics section and ask the former Christians there who have fallen away from their faith if they were real believers." Almost all will answer in the affirmative. Are they lying to us?

If anyone does not believe they are blinded by the god of this world. Why is it most of you seek to condemn captive slaves of darkness? Jesus did not come to burn captives alive forever in fire.

[Calvinist4Him]

None whatsoever. I can appreciate the idea of God's providence being in control of everything, but the idea that once you've accepted Christ, all is said and done just doesn't seem to me to hold true to the bible. Or to my real-life experiences, for that matter. I find it very difficult to believe that all apostates from the Christian faith "weren't really saved" to begin with.

This is where "Perseverance of the Saints" comes into the mix....

If they were really saved, why are they no longer saved? This is where conditional election and unconditonal election bump heads. As for me, well, I'm saved by grace. What then shall seperate us from the love of Christ?

[Arminian]

Funny how this goes back and forth; one minute salvation is in Christ assured in him and faith is his gift - or at least the grace that creates faith; next minute faith is what saves us and we can lose it. One minute he is tha anchor of our soul and hope, next, cos we have LFW, we can cast off anytime we choose.
I thought the whole point about the New Covenant was that we were not able to save ourselves, as Israel showed us under the Old Covenant, so God would ensure that we will be saved despite our failings. Israel were not spiritually saved, despite Seer's use of them, only a remnant was saved because God kept them.
The whole issue seems a bit more complex than the usual game of throwing proof texts at each other. One side gives the idea we can brush God aside even after all he has done, the other gives the impression that God won't go away no matter how bad we are.
If God has not made my salvation secure, and it is still based on my puny sinful attemtps to remain faithful - and you can talk about prevenient grace all you want, it all seems to be suspended on the pinnacle of the upsidedown pyramid - then where is the encouragement, where is the removing of burdens, and of the fear of failure?


This is where I prefer the more classical type of Calvinism practiced by those such a GP. To such Calvinists the warnings are read just as Arminians read them, but with the idea in mind that the warnings will most certainly work. Therefore the fear of failure is in response to the outcome if a particular path is followed, and the "removing of burdens" is in reference to the original context -- that being the law.

Considering what we now know of the socio-cultural world and writings of the ancients, and how the same imagery and phrases are used by the NT authors, no "easy-believism" theology will be able to stand the scrutiny. As a fellow Baptist, I too am surrounded by such thinking. I just love it when a classical Calvinist sits at my table on Sunday morning, because I'll have at least one person to agree with.

Considering the portion of Hebrews you quoted, I'd say my Calvinist freinds would suggest you consider it in context, rather than with the backdrop of your present LFW\anti-LFW notions. Of course, the warnigs don't work on everyone, and that opens the next "can of worms."

[Ormly]

This is where "Perseverance of the Saints" comes into the mix....

If they were really saved, why are they no longer saved? This is where conditional election and unconditonal election bump heads. As for me, well, I'm saved by grace. What then shall seperate us from the love of Christ?Why don't you consider their ability to reject or turn away. That's certainly shown in scripture that man has done numerous times, even Paul refers to it in: Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB-U)

"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away ......"

[Calvinist4Him]

Why don't you consider their ability to reject or turn away. That's certainly shown in scripture that man has done numerous times, even Paul refers to it in: Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB-U)

"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away ......"

Where in Hebrews 6:4-6 does it mention they were saved?

[Ormly]

Where in Hebrews 6:4-6 does it mention they were saved?
Where doesn't it say it?? Do you NEED to see the word 'saved' before making distinctions? Who can taste of any heavenly gift without regeneration or at least being saved? Being "once enlightened and entered into" means they came and received and then turned away. No mystery in that I can see.:smile:

[Calvinist4Him]

Where doesn't it say it?? Do you NEED to see the word 'saved' before making distinctions?

Actually, it would help.

Who can taste of any heavenly gift without regeneration or at least being saved?

:hehe: I dunno.

Being "once enlightened and entered into" means they came and received and then turned away. No mystery in that I can see.:smile:

Actually, I think the phrase "partakers of the Holy Spirit" provides the strongest support.

John Gill has quite alot to say concerning those verses, though you may not agree, you may be interested in reading his commentary. For your reading pleasure...

Heb 6:4 - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,.... The Syriac and Ethiopic versions render it, "baptized"; and the word is thought to be so used in Heb_10:32. And indeed baptism was called very early "illumination" by the ancients, as by Justin Martyr (i), and Clemens Alexandrinus (k), because only enlightened persons were the proper subjects of it; and the word once here used seems to confirm this sense, since baptism, when rightly administered, was not repeated; but then this sense depends upon an use of a word, which it is not certain did as yet obtain; nor does the apostle take notice of baptism in a parallel place, Heb_10:26. This gave rise to, and seems to favour the error of Novatus, that those who fall into sin after baptism are to be cut off from the communion of the church, and never more to be restored unto it; contrary to the promises of God to returning backsliders, and contrary to facts, as well as to the directions of Christ, and his apostles, to receive and restore such persons; and such a notion tends to set aside the intercession of Christ for fallen believers, and to plunge them into despair: it is better therefore to retain the word "enlightened", in its proper sense, and to understand it of persons enlightened with Gospel knowledge; there are some who are savingly enlightened by the Spirit of God, to see the impurity of their hearts and actions, and their impotency to perform that which is good, the imperfection of their own righteousness to justify them, their lost state and condition by nature, and to see Christ and salvation by him, and their interest in it; and these being "once" enlightened, never become darkness, or ever so fall as to perish; for if God had a mind to destroy them, he would never have shown them these things, and therefore cannot be the persons designed here; unless we render the words, as the Syriac version does, "it is impossible"----Nwjxy bwtd, "that they should sin again"; so as to die spiritually, lose the grace of God, and stand in need of a new work upon them, which would be impossible to be done: but rather such are meant, who are so enlightened as to see the evil effects of sin, but not the evil that is in sin; to see the good things which come by Christ, but not the goodness that is in Christ; so as to reform externally, but not to be sanctified internally; to have knowledge of the Gospel doctrinally, but not experimentally; yea, to have such light into it, as to be able to preach it to others, and yet be destitute of the grace of God:

and have tasted of the heavenly gift; either faith, or a justifying righteousness, or the pardon of sin, or eternal life; which are all spiritual and heavenly gifts of grace, and which true believers have real tastes of; and hypocrites please themselves with, having some speculative notions about them, and some desires after them, arising from a natural principle of self-love. Some think the Holy Ghost is intended; but rather Christ himself, the unspeakable gift of God's love, given from heaven, as the bread of life. Now there are some who have a saving spiritual taste of this gift; for though God's people, while unregenerate, have no such taste; their taste is vitiated by sin, and it is not changed; sin is the food they live upon, in which they take an imaginary pleasure, and disrelish every thing else; but when regenerated, their taste is changed, sin is rendered loathsome to them; and they have a real gust of spiritual things, and especially of Christ, and find a real delight and pleasure in feeding by faith upon him; whereby they live upon him, and are nourished up unto eternal life, and therefore cannot be the persons here spoken of: but there are others who taste, but dislike what they taste; have no true love to Christ, and faith in him; or have only a carnal taste of him, know him only after the flesh, or externally, not inwardly and experimentally; or they have only a superficial taste, such as is opposed to eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ, by faith, which is proper to true believers; the gust they have is but temporary, and arises from selfish principles.

And were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; not his person, nor his special grace; there are some who so partake of him, as to be united to him, in whom he becomes the principle of spiritual life, and motion: such have the fruits of the Spirit, and communion with him; they enjoy his personal presence and inhabitation in them; they have received him as a spirit of illumination and conviction, of regeneration and sanctification, as the spirit of faith, and as a comforter; and as a spirit of adoption, and the earnest and seal of future glory; but then such can never so fall away as to perish: a believer indeed may be without the sensible presence of the Spirit; the graces of the Spirit may be very low, as to their exercise; and they may not enjoy his comforts, gracious influences, and divine assistance; but the Spirit of God never is, in the above sense, in a castaway; where he takes up his dwelling, he never quits it; if such could perish, not only his own glory, but the glory of the Father, and of the Son, would be lost likewise: but by the Holy Ghost is sometimes meant the gifts of the Spirit, ordinary or extraordinary, 1Co_12:4 and so here; and men may be said to be partakers of the Holy Ghost, to whom he gives wisdom and prudence in things natural and civil; the knowledge of things divine and evangelical, in an external way; the power of working miracles, of prophesying, of speaking with tongues, and of the interpretation of tongues; for the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost seem chiefly designed, which some, in the first times of the Gospel, were partakers of, who had no share in special grace, Mat_7:22.

Heb 6:5 - And have tasted the good word of God,.... Not the Lord Jesus Christ, the essential Word of God, who seems to be intended before by the heavenly gift; but rather, either the Scriptures of truth in general, which are the word of God, endited by him, and contain his mind and will; which he makes use of for conviction, conversion, instruction, and comfort; and which are preserved by him: and these are a good word; they come from him who is good; they are a revelation of good things; they make known things true, pleasant, and profitable: or else the Gospel in particular, of which God is the author; and in which is a wonderful display of his wisdom and grace; and which he owns and blesses for his own glory, and the good of others: and this is a "good word", the same with דבר טוב, "good matter", or "word", in Psa_45:1 פתגם טובי, "my good word", or "the word of my goodness", in the Targum on Isa_55:11 for it is the word of righteousness, reconciliation, peace, pardon, life, and salvation. And there is a special and spiritual taste of this good, word, which is delightful, relishing, and nourishing; and such who have it can never totally and finally fall away; because they who taste it, so as to eat and digest it, and be nourished by it, to them it becomes the ingrafted word, which is able to save them: but there is such a taste of this word as is disrelishing, as in profane sinners, and open opposers and persecutors of the word, or as in hypocrites and formal professors; which is only an assent to the Scriptures, as the revelation of God, or a superficial knowledge of the doctrines of the Gospel without the experience of them, and a temporal faith in them, and a natural affection for them, and pleasure with them for a time; as the Jews, and Herod with John's ministry, and the stony ground hearers.

And the powers of the world to come; meaning either the state of the church, and the glorious things relating to it, after the first resurrection, which they might have some notional apprehensions of; or the ultimate state of glory and happiness, the powers of which are the immortality, incorruption, and glory of the body, the perfect holiness and knowledge of the soul, entire freedom from all evils of every kind, full communion with Father, Son, and Spirit, and a complete enjoyment of all happiness for ever; which hypocrites may have a notional knowledge of, a natural desire after, and delight in the contemplation and hope of, as Balaam had; or rather the δυναμεις, miracles and mighty works in the former part of the Gospel dispensation, or times of the Messiah, the Jews' world to come; see Gill on Heb_2:5, are intended; which many, as Judas and others, were able to perform, who were not sincere Christians, or true believers.

Heb 6:6 - If they shall fall away,.... This is not supposed of true believers, as appears from Heb_6:9 nor is it to be supposed of them that they may fall totally and finally; they may indeed fall, not only into afflictions and temptations, but into sin; and from a lively and comfortable exercise of grace, and from a degree of steadfastness in the Gospel; but not irrecoverably: for they are held and secured by a threefold cord, which can never be broken; by God the Father, who has loved them with an everlasting love, has chosen them in Christ, secured them in the covenant of grace, keeps them by his power, has given them grace, and will give them glory; and by the Son, who has undertook for them, redeemed and purchased them, prays and makes preparations in heaven for them, they are built on him, united to him, and are his jewels, whom he will preserve; and by the Holy Ghost, whose grace is incorruptible, whose personal indwelling is for ever, who himself is the earnest and seal of the heavenly inheritance, and who having begun, will finish the good work of grace: but falling away, so as to perish, may be supposed, and is true of many professors of religion; who may fall from the profession of the Gospel they have made, and from the truth of it, and into an open denial of it; yea, into an hatred and persecution of what they once received the external knowledge of; and so shall fall short of heaven, and into condemnation: for,

to renew them again unto repentance, is a thing impossible: by "repentance" is meant, not baptism of repentance; nor admission to a solemn form of public repentance in the church; nor a legal repentance, but an evangelical one: and so to be "renewed" unto it is not to be baptized again, or to be restored anew to the church by repentance, and absolution; but must be understood either of renovation of the soul, in order to repentance; or of the reforming of the outward conversation, as an evidence of it; or of a renewing of the exercise of the grace of repentance and to be renewed "again" to repentance does not suppose that persons may have true repentance and lose it; for though truly penitent persons may lose the exercise of this grace for a time, yet the grace itself can never be lost: moreover, these apostates before described had only a show of repentance, a counterfeit one; such as Cain, Pharaoh, and Judas had; and consequently, the renewing of them again to repentance, is to that which they only seemed to have, and to make pretensions unto; now to renew them to a true repentance, which they once made a profession of, the apostle says is a thing "impossible": the meaning of which is not only that it is difficult; or that it is rare and unusual; or that it is unsuitable and improper; but it is absolutely impossible: it is impossible to these men to renew themselves to repentance; renovation is the work of the Holy Ghost, and not of man; and repentance is God's gift, and not in man's power; and it is impossible for ministers to renew them, to restore and bring them back, by true repentance; yea, it is impossible to God himself, not through any impotence in him, but from the nature of the sin these men are guilty of; for by the high, though outward attainments they arrive unto, according to the description of them, their sin is the sin against the Holy Ghost, for which no sacrifice can be offered up, and of which there is no remission, and so no repentance; for these two go together, and for which prayer is not to be made; see Mat_12:32 and chiefly because to renew such persons to repentance, is repugnant to the determined will of God, who cannot go against his own purposes and resolutions; and so the Jews (l) speak of repentance being withheld by God from Pharaoh, and, from the people of Israel; of which they understand Exo_9:16 and say, that when the holy blessed God withholds repentance from a sinner, אינו יכול לשוב, "he cannot repent"; but must die in his wickedness which he first committed of his own will; and they further observe (m), that he that profanes the name of God has it not in his power to depend on repentance, nor can his iniquity be expiated on the day of atonement, or be removed by chastisement:

seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh; who is truly and properly God, begotten of the Father, and of the same nature with him, in whom he greatly delights; this is Christ's highest name and title; and it was for asserting himself to be the Son of God that he was crucified; and his being so puts an infinite virtue in his sufferings and death; and it heightens the sin of the Jews, and of these apostates, in crucifying him. He was once crucified, and it is both impossible and unnecessary that he should be, properly speaking, "crucified afresh", or "again"; it is impossible, because he is risen from the dead, and will never die more; it is unnecessary, because he has finished and completed what he suffered the death of the cross for; but men may be said to crucify him again, when, by denying him to be the Son of God, they justify the crucifixion of him on that account; and when they lessen and vilify the virtue of his blood and sacrifice; and when both by errors and immoralities they cause him to be blasphemed, and evil spoken of; and when they persecute him in his members: and this may be said to be done "to themselves afresh"; not that Christ was crucified for them before, but that they now crucify him again, as much as in them lies; or "with themselves", in their own breasts and minds, and to their own destruction. Now this being the case, it makes their renewal to repentance impossible; because, as before observed, the sin they commit is unpardonable; it is a denial of Christ, who gives repentance; and such who sin it must arrive to such hardness of heart as to admit of no repentance; and it is just with God to give up such to a final impenitence, as those, who knowingly and out of malice and envy crucified Christ, had neither pardon nor repentance; and besides, this sin of denying Christ to be the Son of God, and Saviour of men, after so much light and knowledge, precludes the way of salvation, unless Christ was to be crucified again, which is impossible; for so the Syriac version connects this clause with the word "impossible", as well as a foregoing one, rendering it, "it is impossible to crucify the Son of God again, and to put him to shame"; and so the Arabic version. Christ was put to open shame at the time of his apprehension, prosecution, and crucifixion; and so he is by such apostates, who, was he on earth, would treat him in the same manner the Jews did; and who do traduce him as an impostor and a deceiver, and give the lie to his doctrines, and expose him by their lives, and persecute him in his saints.


Reading further Hebrews 6:9 "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak."

[Ormly]

John Gill is much too convoluted in his thinking that what he states can be of any value in this.

May I suggest this instead: Matthew 5:13 (NASB-U)
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

[lee_merrill]

May I suggest this instead: Matthew 5:13 (NASB-U)
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
There are some questions here, though! How can salt become unsalty? Maybe this indicates that the interpretation might be more than what our first thoughts would suggest. Next, "not good for anything" implies loss of benefit to others, but not necessarily loss of salvation.

Blessings,
Lee

[Ormly]

There are some questions here, though! How can salt become unsalty? Maybe this indicates that the interpretation might be more than what our first thoughts would suggest. Next, "not good for anything" implies loss of benefit to others, but not necessarily loss of salvation.

Blessings,
LeeI thought the issue was how to make it salty again not how it becomes unsalty? So please stick to the issue that Jesus speaks of, ok? If you will then the passage in question in Hebrews will make more sense to you. Of course the end result will be that you will have to throw out Calvin's approach to the "P" in tulip in order to grasp what is spoken by the writer of Hebrews.

[GoBahnsen]

Would you then argue that all apostates never had the Holy Spirit? Not even at their most faithful to God?
Yes I would. I base that on God's omniscience. God isn't a man that He should be fooled has the OVT's would believe. If God authors genuine faith, then He doesn't author faith to not finish it. He doesn't adopt children to abandon them later when they are being rebellious. Rather He chastens His own and they do get the message. Though it may result in a rather sore hinny.

So again, God isn't going to regenerate a vessel created for wrath. He isn't going to save a man whom He knows is going to hell. In Matt. 7 Jesus says to certain ones "I NEVER knew you". He doesn't say, I knew you for awhile and we had a relationship going, but then you blew chowder and I stopped knowing you. No, He never knew them. They had a false faith. They trusted in their own abilities. They pointed to things they had done that should commend them to God.


Yes- I'm not disputing that. But we are saved by grace- through faith. If we end that faithful relationship, there's no means by which grace can work.
This is the weakness of your Arminianism my friend. ( And I do consider you a friend.) You are holding God's hand, in your view, and should you let go He cannot save you. We Calvinists are stuck on John 10 and we love both of those infinite hands of strength wrapped around us. We know that if God left it up to us to make sure we held on, we would never make it to glory.

So what of the passages that warn believers to persevere? They are there for our good. True elect believers heed the warnings. Yet not perfectly, sometimes wandering away from the fold. To which our Shepherd comes after us and with His rod we are guided back into the fold, so that He loses nothing of that which the Father has given Him.

What do you make of those verses were Jesus says He loses nothing of that which the Father gives to Him? You who say that people can believe (be born again) in a genuine sense then leave the fold, you make Jesus a liar, do you not?

[Berean Todd]

Yes I would. I base that on God's omniscience. God isn't a man that He should be fooled has the OVT's would believe. If God authors genuine faith, then He doesn't author faith to not finish it. He doesn't adopt children to abandon them later when they are being rebellious. Rather He chastens His own and they do get the message. Though it may result in a rather sore hinny.

So again, God isn't going to regenerate a vessel created for wrath. He isn't going to save a man whom He knows is going to hell. In Matt. 7 Jesus says to certain ones "I NEVER knew you". He doesn't say, I knew you for awhile and we had a relationship going, but then you blew chowder and I stopped knowing you. No, He never knew them. They had a false faith. They trusted in their own abilities. They pointed to things they had done that should commend them to God.

This is the weakness of your Arminianism my friend. ( And I do consider you a friend.) You are holding God's hand, in your view, and should you let go He cannot save you. We Calvinists are stuck on John 10 and we love both of those infinite hands of strength wrapped around us. We know that if God left it up to us to make sure we held on, we would never make it to glory.

So what of the passages that warn believers to persevere? They are there for our good. True elect believers heed the warnings. Yet not perfectly, sometimes wandering away from the fold. To which our Shepherd comes after us and with His rod we are guided back into the fold, so that He loses nothing of that which the Father has given Him.

What do you make of those verses were Jesus says He loses nothing of that which the Father gives to Him? You who say that people can believe (be born again) in a genuine sense then leave the fold, you make Jesus a liar, do you not?
GoB, it's been truly a blessing to read some of your recent posts, and this one was a gem. Great argumentation :smile:

[GoBahnsen]

GoB, it's been truly a blessing to read some of your recent posts, and this one was a gem. Great argumentation :smile:How kind of you to say so. I will also say that when I see your name pop up on a thread, I know I'm going to find something decent and coherent to read. I have high hopes for you Todd.

So keep up the good posting and don't let certain ones get too far under your skin :hehe: .

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

I thought the issue was how to make it salty again not how it becomes unsalty? So please stick to the issue that Jesus speaks of, ok?Well, that was a minor point, just to show that we may have some work here to understand this statement.

But what about the main point of the reply? "No good use" doesn't imply no salvation...

Here is a similar verse:

Luke 14:34-35 Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Again, we have a similar difficulty, why is salt good for soil? It's not, actually, if the point is for agriculture (Jer. 48:9). Or the manure pile? I do not understand that, either. And what is the context?

Luke 14:33 In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

I don't think a person can be a child of God, and not be a disciple, yet how many real believers do you know who have some attachment to their stuff? I might have a problem, too, and I'm not sure I've come to the point where I've really given up everything.

So again, I think this may not indicate issues of salvation...

Blessings,
Lee

[GoBahnsen]

Hi everyone,

Well, that was a minor point, just to show that we may have some work here to understand this statement.

But what about the main point of the reply? "No good use" doesn't imply no salvation...

Here is a similar verse:

Luke 14:34-35 Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Again, we have a similar difficulty, why is salt good for soil? It's not, actually, if the point is for agriculture (Jer. 48:9). Or the manure pile? I do not understand that, either. And what is the context?

Luke 14:33 In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

I don't think a person can be a child of God, and not be a disciple, yet how many real believers do you know who have some attachment to their stuff? I might have a problem, too, and I'm not sure I've come to the point where I've really given up everything.

So again, I think this may not indicate issues of salvation...

Blessings,
LeeI wanted to go off on this one paragraph lee in which you said :
"I don't think a person can be a child of God, and not be a disciple, yet how many real believers do you know who have some attachment to their stuff? I might have a problem, too, and I'm not sure I've come to the point where I've really given up everything."

I appreciate your candidness. I want to confess that for years I ran from the Lord because I could not see pony-ing up to His demands. I thought to myself "man Lord...you are so radical...if I really follow you in the way I think you are saying...people will think I've gone off the deep end. In fact it is such a deep end, I can't bring myself to dive in." So I ran and I ran and I ran. I was on a good run. But then I got tired. I got very tired. Then I saw that there was no where to run anymore. Isn't God's grace marvelous to His people?

So I did the only sane thing a child of God can do. I threw my hands in the air. I said "I've got a lot of baggage here Lord, and I like it very much, but You have at it, because I can't free myself. I'd like to, but I can't or i won't or whatever it is, I'm stuck."

I remember the joy of that day not too long ago, about March of 2003. It may come as a surprise to some, but the first thing I did as I realized the Christian life was more than I could handle and that Jesus and I had made friends again (though He was always there). The strange thing we did, that might raise many a condemning evangelical brow, is we had a beer. We just had a beer together and talked. It was all I could do.

I sensed no condemnation from Him. For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. We've had quite a few beers since and we walk in unbroken fellowship, knowing that He was pierced for my sin and bruised for my iniquity.

[Jawa Man]

My position's flavor seems to a meal prepared using the ingredients from most of your positions.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

This verse says that we were made to do good because of God. This leads me to think that God is the source of all good that we do - if he is the reason we are programmed to take up good works, then all works we do are because of Him, whether we serve Him or not. This would be grace. This is why I believe that grace is the source of all good things, including spiritual growth, even the atheist helping an old lady across the street, all actions in response to the grace of the God the individual allows himself to yield to. That's why grace cannot help us grow spiritually when we decide to not accept it.

Now I think that salvation is only possible by grace, but requires us to keep it going. That is, if we choose to no longer accept grace and let God transform us, we will be cut off for not bearing fruit, because grace is what makes us bear fruit. This parable helps get this across, in my opinion:

"For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.' And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.' He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.' But his master answered him, 'You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed and gather where I scattered no seed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

I believe salvation is a process, which is conceived when we first believe (which is God's grace given to those willing to have faith). Just as the men who received the money, we all receive some grace from God in response to our submitting, which is what starts our spiritual journey (faith). Then at judgment, He will see what we have done with that initial grace. The first two men found ways to increase the money they received - this is like letting grace transform us and then receiving more grace as we continue being sanctified, which allows us to do more good works. We must take up our cross and follow Jesus to allow this. But the third man did not allow grace to change him, but instead only remained at his first state - just belief maybe, or just belief that had one work behind it. He did not yield to God and allow him to transform him more, but became like the fruitless vine that is cut off. So when Jesus came back and saw that he didn't do anything with his money (or grace), he cast him into outer darkness, being Hell, while the others were glorified for being true servants of God.

Also, here's what Paul says about it.

Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Paul even says that we must race to achieve this prize, which is an imperishable wreath, or our Resurrection and salvation. Racing would be allowing grace to change us, and responding to grace by becoming disciples, taking up our crosses and following Jesus.

So yes, I do believe we are saved by grace through faith, as Paul said. But grace is not something that happens at points in time, but is an everlasting process that even the unsaved go through. Once we have faith, which is given to us by grace and is the first step of discipleship, we gain momentum, continuing to receive more grace and finally achieve sanctity. Once grace stops, so does salvation.

Whew.

[Jawa Man]

First off, sorry if I was redundant, but I wrote so much now and it's 11:38 that I can't revise it without my head exploding.

I did want to add one thing, however.

Faith without works is dead, we hear from James. Now all works come about because of grace, as I said before. Therefore, if we are no longing growing in grace, or allowing it to work in us, we will no longer have the means to doing good works which need to accompany faith, and so our faith dies, which is our means to salvation, making our soul die. However if we yield to grace, there is no way we can avoid doing works. That's why it's not works that save you, but discipleship is, because it is the response and yielding to grace through faith, sanctifying and transforming you into full partakers of the divine nature. If you don't do works, it shows you are not running the race anymore, have ceased from being a disciple, and have ended the process, becoming like the man who had one coin and kept it at one, assuring you a nice summer home after death.

[GoBahnsen]

First off, sorry if I was redundant, but I wrote so much now and it's 11:38 that I can't revise it without my head exploding.

I did want to add one thing, however.
In the future you can do that by just editing your post and adding to it. Doing it this way violates decorum rules, just so you know.

Faith without works is dead, we hear from James. Now all works come about because of grace, as I said before. Therefore, if we are no longing growing in grace, or allowing it to work in us, we will no longer have the means to doing good works which need to accompany faith, and so our faith dies, which is our means to salvation, making our soul die. However if we yield to grace, there is no way we can avoid doing works. That's why it's not works that save you, but discipleship is, because it is the response and yielding to grace through faith, sanctifying and transforming you into full partakers of the divine nature. If you don't do works, it shows you are not running the race anymore, have ceased from being a disciple, and have ended the process, becoming like the man who had one coin and kept it at one, assuring you a nice summer home after death. The whole problem I have with your posts is that you have man in the driver's seat. The "God is my co-pilot" bumper sticker would fit nicely with your Theology. You also place the emphasis on man and his efforts and faithfulness, rather than on Christ and His efforts/work and His faithfulness on our behalf. Classic Arminian, moving toward Pelagian stuff.

[Jawa Man]

Are you dismissing what I said with just that, or just stating what I believe from your point of view? I don't see a problem with God not controlling as much as you see it.

I also don't see how the "God is my co-pilot" would work. I determine if I want to be saved, but God is the one doing the saving. So I could easily say back, God is the one driving, and he sees me on the side of the road, so He pulls over and asks if I want a ride. When I deny myself and follow Him, I hop in the passanger seat, and as long as I deny myself I follow His will, and His grace will keep me with Him and sanctify me. The only choice I have is if I want to get in the car, not "Where do I want to drive it today?"

[GoBahnsen]

Are you dismissing what I said with just that, or just stating what I believe from your point of view? I don't see a problem with God not controlling as much as you see it.

I also don't see how the "God is my co-pilot" would work. I determine if I want to be saved, but God is the one doing the saving. So I could easily say back, God is the one driving, and he sees me on the side of the road, so He pulls over and asks if I want a ride. When I deny myself and follow Him, I hop in the passanger seat, and as long as I deny myself I follow His will, and His grace will keep me with Him and sanctify me. The only choice I have is if I want to get in the car, not "Where do I want to drive it today?"You think you determine if you want to be saved. Jesus says no man can come to Him unless the Father draws him. You give yourself too much credit friend. Repentance and faith are gifts of grace. If they come your way, it isn't because you decided you would have them. God holds all the salvation cards. Good thing too!

[Berean Todd]

I also don't see how the "God is my co-pilot" would work. I determine if I want to be saved, but God is the one doing the saving. So I could easily say back, God is the one driving, and he sees me on the side of the road, so He pulls over and asks if I want a ride. When I deny myself and follow Him, I hop in the passanger seat, and as long as I deny myself I follow His will, and His grace will keep me with Him and sanctify me. The only choice I have is if I want to get in the car, not "Where do I want to drive it today?"
Because in your paragidm, as pointed out, God is not the one saving, it is you who make that choice. Under your view, the only reason that you are saved and "Heathen A" sitting next to you is not is because there is somehow something in you yourself that makes you better than him so that you made the right choice and he didn't. It doesn't have anything to do with God.

Ephesians 2:8 For you have been saved by grace through faith, and that is the gift of God ...

You see that very passage tells us that our faith is a gift from God. It's not anything that we, in and of ourselves would ever have come to, if not for being drawn by the Holy Spirit, because God chose us before the foundations of the earth.

[smaller]

I am with GB and B Todd on this matter. SEE, there is SOME agreement.

I am waiting for a SINGLE NAMED EXAMPLE in the text of someone who LOST their eternal security.

There is NONE.

For lack of scriptural evidence, even on the basis of a THREAT of same loss to a named person the doctrine of "loss of salvation" is FALSE.

It is true that many can FALL in this life AWAY FROM LOVE. This in NO WAY equates to them being "eternally tortured or annihilated."

[Amazing Rando]

Unsubstantiated by the scriptures.


If anyone does not believe they are blinded by the god of this world. Why is it most of you seek to condemn captive slaves of darkness? Jesus did not come to burn captives alive forever in fire.

Yes, I agree with that. But it doesn't answer my question- what am I to think of people who have now lost their saving faith in Christ- yet claim fervently that they had faith in Christ as their redeemer at one time. Are they lying? Or just decieving themselves? Or could it be they're spot on- that they once had faith, and do not have it anymore?

[Amazing Rando]

This is where "Perseverance of the Saints" comes into the mix....

If they were really saved, why are they no longer saved? This is where conditional election and unconditonal election bump heads. As for me, well, I'm saved by grace. What then shall seperate us from the love of Christ?

If you knowingly turn your back on his grace, then you could be lost. The folks who lost their faith ardently insist that they once had it. You could say that they "once were found, but now are lost!"

[Amazing Rando]

Yes I would. I base that on God's omniscience. God isn't a man that He should be fooled has the OVT's would believe. If God authors genuine faith, then He doesn't author faith to not finish it. He doesn't adopt children to abandon them later when they are being rebellious. Rather He chastens His own and they do get the message. Though it may result in a rather sore hinny.

So again, God isn't going to regenerate a vessel created for wrath. He isn't going to save a man whom He knows is going to hell. In Matt. 7 Jesus says to certain ones "I NEVER knew you". He doesn't say, I knew you for awhile and we had a relationship going, but then you blew chowder and I stopped knowing you. No, He never knew them. They had a false faith. They trusted in their own abilities. They pointed to things they had done that should commend them to God.

This is the weakness of your Arminianism my friend. ( And I do consider you a friend.) You are holding God's hand, in your view, and should you let go He cannot save you. We Calvinists are stuck on John 10 and we love both of those infinite hands of strength wrapped around us. We know that if God left it up to us to make sure we held on, we would never make it to glory.

So what of the passages that warn believers to persevere? They are there for our good. True elect believers heed the warnings. Yet not perfectly, sometimes wandering away from the fold. To which our Shepherd comes after us and with His rod we are guided back into the fold, so that He loses nothing of that which the Father has given Him.

What do you make of those verses were Jesus says He loses nothing of that which the Father gives to Him? You who say that people can believe (be born again) in a genuine sense then leave the fold, you make Jesus a liar, do you not?

This is a well- argued post GB. Thanks for the thoughts!

You're absolutely right that there are a great many passages that seem to be arguing for eternal security. But I believe that I am also correct when I observe that many passages seem to argue against it as well.

RightIdea and other assorted and sundry Mid-Acts Dispensationalists try to pawn off this seeming contraditction on the premise that there are different rules for different "dispensations," as they call them. RI, for example, believes that for the Jewish apostles and Jesus, one could fall away from faith. He siezes upon the fact of Judas, Hebrews 6 4:6, and the various "endure" and "persevere" passages as their evidence. Yet they neglect to notice or take into account passages like John 10 you noted above that seem to contradict this.

However they believe that under the Pauline "dispensation of grace," as they call it, one could not lose one's salvation- eternal security in other words. They frequently cite Ephesians 4:30 as evidence of this. But this also ignores the fact that Paul also repeatedly encourages his readers to "endure" in the faith.

There are passages for it and there are passages against it- this much seems obvious to me. Many Calvinist explanations of the passages opposing their viewpoints seem to contradict the plain sense of the text, as do many Arminian explanations of the passages opposing theirs. At this point, that's my judgment of the scriptural evidence- a very mixed bag. That's why I turn to my experiences to help me inform my theology and make sense of the muddle that the bible has left us in at this point.

[Amazing Rando]

I'd be interested in hearing what non-Protestants have to say on the issue- tizzidale, I can see you reading this thread!

[lee_merrill]

... I realized the Christian life was more than I could handle and that Jesus and I had made friends again (though He was always there). ...

I sensed no condemnation from Him. For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus...That's good encouragement, GB! Jack Deere has a similar testimony, where he looked at where the bar was set, and said "There's no way..." But the Lord did find him as a friend, later on, too...

I do find the standard set by Jesus to be like telling a drowning man how he has to do a triple somersault to get a passing grade!

And [a person] cannot get into the right relation until he has discovered the fact of our bankruptcy. When I say "discovered," I mean really discovered: not simply said it parrot-fashion. Of course, any child, if given a certain kind of religious education, will soon learn to say that we have nothing to offer to God that is not already His own and that we find ourselves failing to offer even that without keeping something back. But I am talking of really discovering this: really finding out by experience that it is true. Now we cannot, in that sense, discover our failure to keep God's law except by trying our very hardest. Unless we really try, whatever we say there will always be at the back of our minds the idea that if we try harder next time we shall succeed in being completely good. Thus, in one sense, the road back to God is a road of moral effort, of trying harder and harder. But in another sense it is not trying that is ever going to bring us home. All this trying leads up to the vital moment at which you turn to God and say--"you must do this. I can't."

The law is the bad news, I need to hear that, before I hear the good news! And it's good encouragement too, to hear that coming to Christ means he takes us, just as we are, and starts from there, and promises to lift us over the bar, we don't have to jump it.

I think the rich young ruler went away sad, because he didn't ask for help...

Blessings,
Lee

[smaller]

Yes, I agree with that. But it doesn't answer my question- what am I to think of people who have now lost their saving faith in Christ- yet claim fervently that they had faith in Christ as their redeemer at one time. Are they lying? Or just decieving themselves? Or could it be they're spot on- that they once had faith, and do not have it anymore?

They are the very real casualties of WAR when they depart from the "faith."

But WHO are the REAL casualties?

Those who hate their neighbors and their fellow mankind via eternal torture in fire or annihilation are the ones who LIVE in darkness, promote DARKNESS, and are the instruments OF DARKNESS.

It is any wonder why some leave "the faith?" I left such "faith" which masquerades as faith long ago, yet remain in God's Living Word by HIS LOVE. First His Love from Him to ALL (even to those who have fallen in this life) and from His Love through us to ALL.

There is nowhere else to STAND.

[Jawa Man]

You think you determine if you want to be saved. Jesus says no man can come to Him unless the Father draws him. You give yourself too much credit friend. Repentance and faith are gifts of grace. If they come your way, it isn't because you decided you would have them. God holds all the salvation cards. Good thing too!
I agree with everything you say except the third to last sentence.

Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
(Rev 3:19-21, ESV)

Jesus is calling this Church to repent, but He clearly shows this is an option to these people. If they choose not to open the door to grace and allow that grace to bring them repentance, they cannot repent.

Because in your paragidm, as pointed out, God is not the one saving, it is you who make that choice. Under your view, the only reason that you are saved and "Heathen A" sitting next to you is not is because there is somehow something in you yourself that makes you better than him so that you made the right choice and he didn't. It doesn't have anything to do with God.
God is saving, but He waits for the door to open before He comes in and dwells in the believer, in other words, they have to choose to accept His grace so they may repent. God has everything to do with it, because without His grace we would be unable to even have the care for repentance, or doing good works, or sancitification.

And what you're saying in the second half does not follow what I said. "Something in you"? That something is the grace of God, which doesn't just come on its own, but by Jesus dwelling in you. That doesn't make me better than the other guy, however. We are commanded in the Bible to maintain our spiritual lives - so by your logic, doesn't that mean a Christian who maintains his spiritual life is a better person than the one who doesn't? Both are sinful - heathens and Christians are sinful.

By the way Amazing Rando, I don't represent a Protestant view. I'm actually trying to say as best I can the Orthodox view of salvation, which I believe is true, though I admit I don't believe all Orthodoxy.

[tizzidale]

I'd be interested in hearing what non-Protestants have to say on the issue- tizzidale, I can see you reading this thread!



I was asked to look into the thread and give my opinion about a certain poster's comments (by that poster). I haven't had time to respond today in full, and I don't even know if I'll be able to finish right now.



I would like to start by saying that I'm not really interested in knowing the percentages of my salvation. Is it 99% God and 1% me? Can that 1% truly be said to be of me - since all things are by God and in God and of God? We have the Lord's Prayer as an example. Jesus taught us to say, "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." What is our debt? It is that gulf that separates man from God. The unapproachable-ness of the God that dwells in that Holy Mountain has been made accessible by the Incarnation and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Such a debt can never be repaid – we are in constant awe of God’s love for man and His Grace toward us.



We are told to simply deny ourselves – follow Him. In the same way that we can never put a man into Hell by our intimations, how can we presume to know if we will finish the race set before us? We are told to look unto Jesus, Who is the Author and Finisher of our faith – but we’re also told to hold fast, not look back, etc. If we are rewarded at the end of our journey - a continued trusting in Christ for Grace – can we say that it was our running that saved us? Isn’t it some mystery – how God became man – but we have to know how exactly we are saved? I am reminded of the passage in Philippians where Paul says, “ . . . work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” But then he continues, “for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” How is this working accomplished? Does God override our will? Or does he work with our will? How are we to know? Why do we have to know?



The best we can expect is to do what we are asked to do. Follow hard after God – keep His commandments. Abide in Him, and He in us. And in the end, let us be as the servants in Luke 17 and say, “We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.” For what is salvation if not a gift of God that is unearned and undeserved. Rather than discerning which part I play in the wondrous mystery, I should recognize that I will be indebted to God for eternity. Though I’m hungry and thirsty, I’ll never cease feasting at the table of the Lord.



I guess my best answer to the OP would be that it makes no sense to me either. But honestly, the more I learn about God – the more I know how little I understand. When we look back over our lives, and we see the times we’ve faltered and failed; the times we’ve left God and declared ourselves independent – I think we will not be surprised to see the hand of God on our lives through all of those times. Grace is like the rain – it falls on the just and the unjust. Some respond, and others do not. Trying to understand how all of this looks from God’s perspective is fruitless. Let’s only deny ourselves, looking unto God for our only hope – for redemption will not be found in intellectual curiosity or theological understanding. Salvation is found in denying ourselves and following Christ.



rusty

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

I am reminded of the passage in Philippians where Paul says, “ . . . work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” But then he continues, “for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” How is this working accomplished? Does God override our will? Or does he work with our will? How are we to know? Why do we have to know?That's a good point, and it does seem that God is willing to override our will sometimes (1 Cor. 11:30). The pertinent question then becomes "Is God willing to override our will in the area of salvation?" This is kind of an odd question, though, for it seems to say if we choose to disbelieve, maybe God can say "No, you won't!" But I expect God works differently than that, I would tend to ask "Does God control our wills so that we won't choose to stray beyond certain boundaries?"

I think the best focus in answering that is in heaven! Will people in heaven be able to sin, and fall out, and lose their salvation? If not (most people would say no), then why is it unreasonable to suppose that the same is true of believers on earth? That though they are not yet perfect, there is still a similar boundary.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Blessings,
Lee

[Amazing Rando]

They are the very real casualties of WAR when they depart from the "faith."

But WHO are the REAL casualties?

Those who hate their neighbors and their fellow mankind via eternal torture in fire or annihilation are the ones who LIVE in darkness, promote DARKNESS, and are the instruments OF DARKNESS.

It is any wonder why some leave "the faith?" I left such "faith" which masquerades as faith long ago, yet remain in God's Living Word by HIS LOVE. First His Love from Him to ALL (even to those who have fallen in this life) and from His Love through us to ALL.

There is nowhere else to STAND.

I think your evaluation of people and their beliefs is a bit too simplistic. How many Christians have you known that have lost their faith in Christ as savior? I know a few earnest ones. The church today is in a sad state of affairs, and unfortunately, this type of situation isn't that uncommon.

[Amazing Rando]

Thank you Rusty, very good reflections!

[smaller]

I think your evaluation of people and their beliefs is a bit too simplistic. How many Christians have you known that have lost their faith in Christ as savior? I know a few earnest ones. The church today is in a sad state of affairs, and unfortunately, this type of situation isn't that uncommon.

As previously noted the very real fact that some lose faith in this life does not equate to their being eternally tortured by their "former in their minds" Saviour.

[Catholic Guy]

Hi Everybody
This is my first post here. Interesting discussion even though I don't follow all of it. I am curious on your interpretations of the bible verse that says something about working our your salvation in fear and trembling?
thanks in advance
David Zamora

[seer]

Hi Everybody
This is my first post here. Interesting discussion even though I don't follow all of it. I am curious on your interpretations of the bible verse that says something about working our your salvation in fear and trembling?
thanks in advance
David Zamora

Welcome Daivd. My personal understanding is that we are to work out (or express) the life that God works in us. But who knows...

[Ormly]

By GoBo,You think you determine if you want to be saved. Jesus says no man can come to Him unless the Father draws him. You give yourself too much credit friend. Repentance and faith are gifts of grace. If they come your way, it isn't because you decided you would have them. God holds all the salvation cards. Go