Regeneration a LITERAL rebirth of your human spirit

[lifesharer]

Hello < this will be my first, but not my last post to this forum.
The subject is regeneration: what is it and what are its effects?
Regeneration from the KJV Titus 3: 5 and Matt. 19: 28 is in the Greek paliggenesia. a Return to a former nature; based on it's roots meanings. A literal or figurative spiritual rebirth. Strongs Concordance.
Regeneration (also called: "being born again") is Jesus most emphasisied teaching in scriptures. He used "verily" four times in five short verses , more than any other teaching he gave.
The reason for this is clear when you have a firm grasp of what regeneration is and it's effects.
Jesus defined what it is in John 3:6: "That which is born of flesh is flesh, but that which is born of the (S)pirit is (s)pirit." The subject (you/ spirit) Must be born again in your spirit by the holy Spirit. This promise is first seen in scriptures in Ezekiel 11: 19 and jeremiah 31: 33 Based on the root words this refers to a restoration of your human spirit to the state and functions God originaly created it to be ( "divine nature" as in divinely created original nature 2Peter1:4); as in Adam before he sinned and his spirit was cut off (died) from God by sin. Hench: a return to a former nature.
Regeneration is the foundation of a christians spiritual life, spiritual maturity and spiritual abilities. Without it a christian will remian a carnal person of the flesh and soul natures only, severly limited in thier ability to be used of God and given to carnal understandings and actions. Many false doctrines and evil acts are done by such in Christ's name saddly.
Regeneration is the foundation of so much in a christian life: like overcoming our flesh (john 3:8 + Gal. 5: 16-18 and ro. 8: 1-17) being able to have intimate private communion with, and leading of the holy Spirit. ( john 3:8 and 1 Cor. 2: 9-16) and even our ability to be used by God in His KINGDOM is based on our first being in our regeneration (john 3:5, Matt 19: 28), and walking in its effects. to become spiritualy mature of the measure and stature of Christ is founded on regeneration ( Ephesians 4: 13) because we must be able to be led by the Spirit and spiritualy discern the Kingdom to "enter the KINGDOM" ( JOhn 3:8, 3:3 and 3:5 respectivly) to participate in it (inferred in John 3:5 and stated in matt. 19: 28).
NO wonder Jesus thought this was important!
Theres much more about this too: Regeneration is essential to rightly divide the word of God , to weld the power and authority of Gods in the KINGDOM and to know his perfect will.
So starting from this shall we consider it further? There is still more to this marvelouse truth for us to understand. I am excited by the power of it's truth and its foundational quality!
lifesharer

[Mercuryrules]

This is all very well, but was there something you wanted to discuss with others? And by the way- Hello!, and welcome to the community, I just joined myself recently.


Hello < this will be my first, but not my last post to this forum.
The subject is regeneration: what is it and what are its effects?
Regeneration from the KJV Titus 3: 5 and Matt. 19: 28 is in the Greek paliggenesia. a Return to a former nature; based on it's roots meanings. A literal or figurative spiritual rebirth. Strongs Concordance.
Regeneration (also called: "being born again") is Jesus most emphasisied teaching in scriptures. He used "verily" four times in five short verses , more than any other teaching he gave.
The reason for this is clear when you have a firm grasp of what regeneration is and it's effects.
Jesus defined what it is in John 3:6: "That which is born of flesh is flesh, but that which is born of the (S)pirit is (s)pirit." The subject (you/ spirit) Must be born again in your spirit by the holy Spirit. This promise is first seen in scriptures in Ezekiel 11: 19 and jeremiah 31: 33 Based on the root words this refers to a restoration of your human spirit to the state and functions God originaly created it to be ( "divine nature" as in divinely created original nature 2Peter1:4); as in Adam before he sinned and his spirit was cut off (died) from God by sin. Hench: a return to a former nature.
Regeneration is the foundation of a christians spiritual life, spiritual maturity and spiritual abilities. Without it a christian will remian a carnal person of the flesh and soul natures only, severly limited in thier ability to be used of God and given to carnal understandings and actions. Many false doctrines and evil acts are done by such in Christ's name saddly.
Regeneration is the foundation of so much in a christian life: like overcoming our flesh (john 3:8 + Gal. 5: 16-18 and ro. 8: 1-17) being able to have intimate private communion with, and leading of the holy Spirit. ( john 3:8 and 1 Cor. 2: 9-16) and even our ability to be used by God in His KINGDOM is based on our first being in our regeneration (john 3:5, Matt 19: 28), and walking in its effects. to become spiritualy mature of the measure and stature of Christ is founded on regeneration ( Ephesians 4: 13) because we must be able to be led by the Spirit and spiritualy discern the Kingdom to "enter the KINGDOM" ( JOhn 3:8, 3:3 and 3:5 respectivly) to participate in it (inferred in John 3:5 and stated in matt. 19: 28).
NO wonder Jesus thought this was important!
Theres much more about this too: Regeneration is essential to rightly divide the word of God , to weld the power and authority of Gods in the KINGDOM and to know his perfect will.
So starting from this shall we consider it further? There is still more to this marvelouse truth for us to understand. I am excited by the power of it's truth and its foundational quality!
lifesharer

[themuzicman]

Let's look at Matt 19:28 and Titus 3:5:

28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

One thing to keep in mind is context. In Matt 19:28, Jesus isn't talking about the salvation of individuals, or even people. He's referring to the regeneration of the earth. The NIV interprets this as all things, and I think rightly so, because Jesus is speaking escatologically, and not soteriologically.

Titus 3:5, while speaking soteriologically, is also talking about a continuous process. The washing of the Holy Spirit is clearly a reference to sanctification, a process that is ongoing in each Christian's life, and will only be completed upon resurrection.

Michael

[smaller]

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Most "christians" probably felt this for just a moment or two before the enemy stole it from you.

[lifesharer]

hello i wanted to discuss regeneration :)

[themuzicman]

I think the two verses you cited are referring to two different regenerations, one the process of sanctification of Mankind, and the other of the regeneration of the earth.

Michael

[smaller]

The "born again" experience you cited from John 3 was called by Jesus as an "earthly thing" in John 3:12, not some "mysterious process" whereby men get to judge others validity in spiritual matters.

[lifesharer]

Hello Micheal,
I am afraid you have misunderstood my statements and the context of Matt. 19: 28 in light of John 3:5.
IN Matt, 19: 28 Jesus is NOT talking about " salvation" as you correctly surmised; he is talking about REGENERATION from the SAME greek word in Titus 3:5: paliggenesia.This word's defintion does NOT refer to the renewal of the earth or "all things" as you suggested, NOR does it refer to salvation in any sense as the plain defintion speaks clearly to what it does mean. Simply look up the term in your Strongs concordance. It means a "spiritual rebirth" and in context refers to the humans he was speaking to,... NOT to the future (hint look up the greek word for "follow"). It's root words speak of a return to a former nature of old. Jesus was refering to THIER regeneration (spiritual rebirth) and more precisely to those who would walk IN spiritual mindedness and true spiritual life (Ro. 8: 1-17 , Ro. 2: 28-29 + Col. 2: 11-14) which is obediance to the personal private communion and leading of the holy Spirit (john 3:8, Ro. 8: 1-17). The KEY is the concept of authority (to JUDGE); one of the three principles of "KINGDOM" life. Those who are regenerated can move on to spiritual maturity of the stature of Christ and walk in the authority to Judge (1 Cor. 2: 9-16) or exercise KINGDOM preogatives. While those who were NOT regenerated ("born again" John 3:6 speaks plainly as to what that means),.... (like the thief on the cross) would NOT be able to "enter the KINGDOM" (john 3:5) which is why Jesus said "this day you will be with me in paradise" and NOT kingdom or even heaven since that last word does carry the connotation of kingdom (of heaven). Paradise means literaly : "a garden" and is synonimous with Heaven, except: it carries NO connotattion of "kingdom" in it. Jesuis always spoke exactly what he meant NEVER arbitrarily!
This word "enter" (john 3:5) carries the connotation of PARTICIPATION IN the KINGDOM just as "entering the army" would. The thief would be a spiritual "babe" in christ, in heaven for eternity, as are all those "saved", who die without regeneration and spiritual renewing. Would you give power or authority to such a one who could not even percieve the Kingdom (spiritualy discern: (john 3:3) or be led by the Spirit (john 3:8)? By the way "power" is the second element of the Kingdom.
This brings me to Titus 3:5. the term regeneration as a LITERAL rebirth of our human spirit; is instant and complete at the time it occures (during water baptism (see Ro. 2: 28-29 + Col. 2: 11-14) BUT there remains a process: "renewing"(titus 3:5) the second half of this scripture, which refers to the soulical process (it takes TIME) of having our minds renewed by the washing of the water of the word, being confomed to Christ, putting on the mind of Christ, etc. By the working of the Spirit as the manifest two edged sword of the word making it alive and able to bring us to spiritual maturity; where our soul and spirit are in accordance again as God originaly intended ("the divine [ly created] nature " 2 Peter 1:4). The "dividing asunder of soul and spirit by the two edged sword..." is simply an anology of our learning to distinquish that which is merely soulical in us (and therefore carnal) as apposed to the quiet ministrations of the (S)pirit to our (s)pirit. this refers to the breaking of the bondage of our carnal " old man" nature into a newness of life ( Ro. 6: 1-? and Col. 2: 11-16).This is what "renewing" refers to; and NOT to an "ongoing regeneration process" as you errantly put it.
The first (regeneration is typified by Israel passing through the red sea and being set free soveriegnly (by the holy Spirit John 3:6 in the case of regeneration) from bondage to the flesh as typified by Egypt and its soldiers.
The second (renewing) is typified clearly by the wilderness experience which was stated to be for the removal of unbelief and sin and to teach the church (in the wilderness) to walk with God in truth and obediance. This last term then clearly refers to sanctification as you suggested. It is a ongoing process as apposed to regeneration proper.
Jesus said that unless you are regenerated ( born again ) you cannot see the KINGDOM.(spiritualy discern) He did NOT say Heaven or salvation here since regeneration is not essential to have mere salvation but for spiritual life, abilities and maturity so to be able to participate in Gods "KINGDOM", which Jesus said is NOT a " place" and could be "in us" ( Luke 17: 21)
I agree that a certian aspect of restoration is waiting for the return of Christ when our flesh shall finaly be changed to immortal spiritual bodies but the context of titus 3:5 is not about the flesh but about the spirit and soul of man. Ephesians 4:11-16 states that we can NOW and here be spiritualy mature to the measure and stature of Christ.
Thankyou for your insights Micheal, but they are not well thought out yet; though i do believe you're getting there. I encourage you to read Watchman Nees foundational book: 'The Spiritual Man' as a better guide to understanding these things. He was called of God to be a "Teacher" (Eph. 4: 11) I also encourage you to read each verse i gave in context (KJV) and throw away that perverse NIV version as it is not clearer but clouding the truth with to many words! (see G.A. Riplingers book : 'New Age bible versions')
Finally, the third principle of the "Kingdom" is the ability to know Gods perfect will in all things. (john 3:8) Combined, these three are God's manifest soveriegnty or "Kingdom".


Let's look at Matt 19:28 and Titus 3:5:

28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

One thing to keep in mind is context. In Matt 19:28, Jesus isn't talking about the salvation of individuals, or even people. He's referring to the regeneration of the earth. The NIV interprets this as all things, and I think rightly so, because Jesus is speaking escatologically, and not soteriologically.

Titus 3:5, while speaking soteriologically, is also talking about a continuous process. The washing of the Holy Spirit is clearly a reference to sanctification, a process that is ongoing in each Christian's life, and will only be completed upon resurrection.

Michael

[themuzicman]

I am afraid you have misunderstood my statements and the context of Matt. 19: 28 in light of John 3:5.
IN Matt, 19: 28 Jesus is NOT talking about " salvation" as you correctly surmised; he is talking about REGENERATION from the SAME greek word in Titus 3:5: paliggenesia.This word's defintion does NOT refer to the renewal of the earth or "all things" as you suggested, NOR does it refer to salvation in any sense as the plain defintion speaks clearly to what it does mean.

However, context determines meaning. Let's remember that there is more at stake that just the salvation of men. Christ came to reconcile all creation to Himself:

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Yet, Paul uses reconcile for people, too:

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

So, what we see is that the same word, in different contexts, can have very different meanings.

You can't go setting the meaning of a given word, in this case regeneration, into one mold, and then trying to make every use of that word fit your preconcieved notions.

1) Christ talks about one regeneration in Matt 19:28, not many.

2) Christ also talks about this regeneration happens when he is sitting on His throne in glory, with the twelve sitting on thrones, judging Israel.

Clearly this ISN'T about individual salvation.

Since the remainder of your argument seems based upon this faulty interpretation, we should probably stop here.


Michael

[Starkman]

I don't think the issue of regeneration is ontological at all, at least for the Christian. An assertion, I know, but what I believe to be true.

If we could pry into and spy upon the "spirit" of a person prior to them being saved, I don't think we'd see some decrepid, old, evil (or otherwise) looking entity. And if we were to do the same to a "born-again" Christian, I don't think we'd see shining white with glow from being regenerated. I think that misses the whole boat.

The core of the issue is that man has been displaced; he is out of relationship with God (or, rather, the relationship he has with God is by no means good). He is in an environment that is outside of where God resides: in truth, love and in the incorruptable. Man exists in an environment almost the opposite of this. It's almost as if sin is some sort of thing--a substance or otherwise--that is in all of us...as if God extracts it from us when we get saved. That's just not the Biblical concept portrayed.

To be regenerated is to have come into relationship with God where you are no longer in that old sphere of existence. You are "spiritually" outside of its domain and of its dominion of you. You may still feel the physical affects (and effects) of the Fall, but that, too, will one day be taken care of when we are resurrected.

I think we internalizing the matter far too much and make it ontological when it is not. I do admit, however, that there is the Jewish concept of being "born again" that must be kept in mind when talking about this within a first-century context. I don't know the subject well enough to talk about it, and would love some input on this.

For regeneration,

Starkman

[themuzicman]

i think with "Born Again" you have to keep in mind that the Jews thought that they belonged to God because they were descendents of Abraham, meaning that they were born into it, and, in fact, received eternal life by birth.

Thus, when Jesus says, "You must be born again", he is challenging that idea, and repeatedly challenged that though throughout scripture. (God can raise up from these stones descendents for Abraham, is one of them, is it not?)

Nicodemus' response bears this out, as he thinks that he has to go back into his mother's womb and be born again, because that is how they become God's people.

Thus, when Jesus responds, he says, You must be born of water (natural birth) AND of the Spirit (faith, see 3:16), in order to receive eternal life.

[Starkman]

i think with "Born Again" you have to keep in mind that the Jews thought that they belonged to God because they were descendents of Abraham, meaning that they were born into it, and, in fact, received eternal life by birth.

Thus, when Jesus says, "You must be born again", he is challenging that idea, and repeatedly challenged that though throughout scripture. (God can raise up from these stones descendents for Abraham, is one of them, is it not?)

Nicodemus' response bears this out, as he thinks that he has to go back into his mother's womb and be born again, because that is how they become God's people.

Thus, when Jesus responds, he says, You must be born of water (natural birth) AND of the Spirit (faith, see 3:16), in order to receive eternal life.
Apparently, the "born again" experience was what Jews called it when a Gentile converted to Judaism, but I can't prove this yet.

Starkman

[themuzicman]

Then why would Nicodemus not know what Jesus meant?

[smaller]

Then why would Nicodemus not know what Jesus meant?

Nicodemus SHOULD have seen the obvious statements in the Old Testament, that ALL OF ISRAEL are God's Children.

As such they were SEPARATED OUT OF GOD and MADE TO BE GOD'S CHILDREN and SENT INTO THE EARTH of their bodies being born of SPIRIT and of WATER (hello-water sac,) and were thus "born again."

Jesus said to Nicodemus that He spoke to him of "earthly things." Nicodemus did not understand. His understanding was darkened, as it is with ALL MEN, by the SIN INDWELLING THEM who is NOT THEM.

"God bound all men to disobedience SO THAT He may have MERCY upon ALL MEN." Romans 11:32

All of Israel shall be saved, even the enemies of The Gospel. So it is with the Gentiles as well, as God is God of BOTH.

[Starkman]

Then why would Nicodemus not know what Jesus meant?
If the concept of being born again was in regard to Gentiles coming into Judaism, then it makes sense that Nicodemus wouldn't know what Jesus is talking about; after all, Nic's a Jew. How then can he be born again? He's already been born into the Judaism as a Jew. What, does he have to do it all over again? Obviously Jesus was creating something new that didn't apply to Gentiles (at that time).

Starkman

[Chappie]

If the concept of being born again was in regard to Gentiles coming into Judaism, then it makes sense that Nicodemus wouldn't know what Jesus is talking about; after all, Nic's a Jew. How then can he be born again? He's already been born into the Judaism as a Jew. What, does he have to do it all over again? Obviously Jesus was creating something new that didn't apply to Gentiles (at that time).

Starkman

I think that it applied to everyone, to the Jew first, then to the gentiles....

[lifesharer]

I think the two verses you cited are referring to two different regenerations, one the process of sanctification of Mankind, and the other of the regeneration of the earth.

Michael TY Michael for your response BUT < lolol
The WORD is the SAME one used in both places and has No connotation of a physical restoration of the planet IN IT! This means that you cannot apply it to the earth as that would NOt be an accurate use of the word according to the defintion. It speaks of a " spiritual rebirth" and nothing more or less. to apply it to the earth simply does not make sense, since the earth is physical NOt spiritual. looking closer at the terminolgy of Matt 17: we see that Jesus said that those MEN who followed Jesus INTO (and NOT ALL OF THEM) the regeneration PALIGGENESIA, (spiritual rebirth) would be able to exercise authority (as typified by the twelve thrones of Judgement). there is NO reference to the earth in this passage!
secondly NONE of these men lived to see the earth restored as is spoken about of the millenium. The context of this passage MUST be supported by other scripture as titus 3: 5 does beautiful as well as john 3:5.
Thirdly: The KIngdom of GOD is NOT a place nor is it awaiting the last days to be established since we have the kingdom IN US now by the indwelling Holy Spirit and in the earth in so far as men walk with God in obediance to the holy Spirit.
fourthly: even excluding this passage from the study since so much time has been used trying to get you to apply simply english diagramming and sentence structure to allow it to speak for itself the ISSUE is about regeneration of MEN so allowing you to have your poorly framed understanding until the Holy Spirit decides to awake you from this personal opinion is fine with me :).
Let us let the matter rest,... as i am quite sure that what i have stated about thise verse is accurate.
It speaks of the regeneration of the men allowing them to walk in spiritual maturity and therefore be fit to Judge others by the revelation of Gods spirit to thier spirit, as typified by the symbol of "12 thrones" a clear typology for judgement and authority such thrones which have no need to be actual to a glorified spiritual man like we will eventualy be. ( 1 Cor. 2: 9- 16) thankyou for your comments
lifesharer

[lifesharer]

I think the two verses you cited are referring to two different regenerations, one the process of sanctification of Mankind, and the other of the regeneration of the earth.

Michael TY Michael for your response BUT; < lolol
The WORD is the SAME one used in both places and has No connotation of a physical restoration of the planet IN IT! This means that you cannot apply it to the earth as that would NOt be an accurate use of the word according to the defintion. It speaks of a " spiritual rebirth" and nothing more or less. To apply it to the earth simply does not make sense, since the earth is physical NOT spiritual. Looking closer at the terminology of Matt 17: we see that Jesus said that those MEN who followed Jesus INTO (and NOT ALL OF THEM) the regeneration, PALIGGENESIA, (spiritual rebirth) would be able to exercise authority (as typified by the twelve thrones of Judgement). There is NO reference to the earth in this passage!
Secondly: NONE of these men lived to see the earth restored as is spoken about of the millenium. The context of this passage MUST be supported by other scripture as titus 3: 5 does beautifully as well as john 3:5. And since John 3:3-8 is about regeneration (spiritual rebirth, John 3:6) it applies clearly to thie concept.
Thirdly: The KIngdom of GOD is NOT a place nor is it awaiting the last days to be established since we have the kingdom IN US now by the indwelling Holy Spirit and in the earth in so far as men walk with God in obediance to the holy Spirit. (see the Lords prayer)
Fourthly: even excluding this passage from the study since so much time has been used trying to get you to apply simply english diagramming and sentence structure to allow it to speak for itself,....... the ISSUE is about regeneration of MEN so allowing you to have your poorly framed understanding until the Holy Spirit decides to awake you from this personal opinion is fine with me :).
Let us let the matter rest,... as i am quite sure that what i have stated about thise verse is accurate.
It speaks of the regeneration of the men allowing them to walk in spiritual maturity and therefore be fit to Judge others by the revelation of Gods Spirit to thier spirit, as typified by the symbol of "12 thrones" a clear typology for judgement and authority. Such thrones which have no need to be actual to a glorified spiritual man like we will eventualy be. ( 1 Cor. 2: 9- 16) Thankyou for your comments,
lifesharer

[themuzicman]

Well, since Jesus is talking about one definate regeneration in Matt 19:28, maybe you could tell us who the lucky person is.

Michael

[lifesharer]

Well, since Jesus is talking about one definate regeneration in Matt 19:28, maybe you could tell us who the lucky person is.

Michael Michael , the context of regeneration as a doctrine is singular in that it applies to each person ONCE not to one single instance of regeneration. WE do NOt need repeated regeneration of our spirit as once is all that is required which is why Titus 3:5 speaks also of the "renewing" of us and this applies to the change in our souls to make us apply our spiritual/ soul life correctly and to bring us to the "mind of Christ". Further a dominant trait of Greek is that terms such as "the" are not found in it, consider that when reading this passage! .....Those who follow me in [thier] regeneration ..... is just as applicable.
Lifesharer

[themuzicman]

Let me assure you (being one who is studying greek), that "regeneration" has a definate article, and is singluar.

Futhermore, Jesus isn't talking about the regeneration of each person, but of one regeneration. Let's read it again, shall we?

27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, "See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?" 28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

Notice that this regeneration takes place the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, and since "sits" is an aorist verb, the time aspect is of something happening, generally punctilliar, especially in the presence of "when".

So, if we're to take it your way,then everyone who is going to be regenerated is regenerated in the same moment, when Christ takes His seat...

Michael

[lifesharer]

Once again it is YOU Micheal that is NOT allowing the plain defintion of the word to be as it is clearly stated. And the diagramming of this senternce is understood BY a clear understanding of regeneration as it is USED in other verses and NOT by how you want it to apply. Your understanding is simply not logical or proper exegesis of this verse.

[lifesharer]

OR,....... Micheal,...... as I said the SAME regeneration for ALL of US as in: of our spirits, is what is applicable and NOT ONE regeneration as you are trying to pevert what i said INTO. Again Jesus is OUTside of TIme, so i find your application of time factors simply a silly misunderstanding since Jesus is IN Heaven shortly after this yet we still do NOT see the earth "regenerated" Finaly its NOT important to the subject if this verse or is NOT added > i find complete satisfaction with the understanding i have and it supports all other scriptures i use in a logical clear and consise manner: As I define it. While your application and redefintion of regeneration does NOT. To much education is much of the problem with carnal understanding of the word since it is Gods spirit that reveals the true meanings to us if we but listen ( 1 Cor. 2:9-16)

[themuzicman]

OK, Lifeshare, you're not getting what I'm saying...

Let's try this again:

Context determines meaning.

Just because you see regeneration here and regeneration there doesn't automatically mean that they're referring to same event!

As I showed before, Colossians refers to the reconciliation of all things to Christ, and to the reconciliation of us to Christ. However, our reconciliation has already happened, whereas the reconciliation of all things happens in the end times.

We have the same thing with regeneration, here. Matt 19:28 refers to a single, future event, when Christ sits on his throne. I realize that you want these to be the same things, but they simply cannot.

(Oh, and Jesus cannot be outside of time and be fully human.)

Michael

[lifesharer]

In deed it IS a Earthly thing since it is about OUR regeneration as HUMANS. but this in NO way invalidates the clear statements of 1 Cor. 2: 15, nor the obvious effects regeneration has on us. In this light it is ontological and even cosmological.

[lifesharer]

well Micheal you are not getting what I am saying either it seems,lolol
Irreguardless of what your assumed context IS,.... I see a clear parallel to the concept of regeneration of men's spirits as essential to attain spiritual maturity and abilities and our abilities to be "judges" ( SEE 1 Cor. 2: 15 ( the SPIRITUAL MAN....) which is what "Thrones" refers to or suggests.
SECONDLY: you fail to grasp that irrequardless of the final outcome of the exegesis of this passage it is NOT the cornerstone or foundation of the concept of regeneration as used in titus 3:5 John 3:6, Ezekiel 11: 19, ro. 2: 28-29 + Col. 2: 11-14, Ro. 6-8:1-17 and other clear verses which DO speak to a LITERAL rebirthing of our human spirit as the foundation of spiritual life and maturity essential to a christian who wants to "enter the KINGDOM ". seems you so addicted to being right your willing to ignore the true importance of Jesuis' teachings on regeneration in order that a very archaic and somewhat suspect belief about what this verse speaks to is more important than the REAL issue: OUR regeneration. why don't we agree to disagree on this verse so that we can discuss the REAL subject ? OK ?
Lifesharer OH and Michael , I have LONG since lost any appreciation or awe for large words, like soterology or ontology when trying to relate the simplicity of scriptures
Please refrain from using them if you wish to discuss with me as it will aid normal people to understand the points you are trying to make. Thank you

[lifesharer]

Actualy Starkman< you very close to the true meaning of John 3:5:" that one must be born of water and the Spirit...."
In the time of Christ the eastern traditions held sway and it was always the proper polite manner to answer the questioners question first THEN address truth.
The term :" born of water" is a judaic (slang) term which speaks of being born of the linage of Abraham. And Jesus used it to Nic's question in order to clarify what he was speaking about. IN a dual dialouge Jesus FIRST answered Nics Question about a new physical birth in a way that would spare him from embarrassment before the people and would clear up what Jesus was talking about. Interestingly, Jesus RESTATES this in John 3:6 in a much plainer way:" That which is born of flesh is flesh, but that which is born by the Spirit is spirit." In this repeat of John 3:5 we see that physical birth is NOT what Jesus is talking about but a birth of OUR (s)pirit [YOU must be born again] by the holy (S)pirit, Exactly as stated in Titus 3:5, Ez. 11: 19, Ro. 2: 28-29+ Col. 2: 11-14 and John 3:6. Interesting also is the idea that we who are grafted into the vine are adopted and made fellow hiers with Abraham as the slang term suggests being added to that family as other verses speak of.
Lifesharer

[lifesharer]

SO true Starkman My sentiments exactly !
It is saddening to me that men are so unable to hear the great wonderful thing that regeneration presents to US! Instead they will nitpick one verse as Michael has done in order to waste time, and cloud the issues.
Regeneration does NOT hinge on one verse in Matthew but is found in many many verses under many differing names. Here is a partial list of them:
Regeneration, newness of life , new creation , spiritual man , remission of sin(S), IN christ, Circumcision of the heart and others.
The subject here IS regeneration NOT which regeneration is being referred to.
I suspect there is but ONE and its about OUR spirits rebirth as i have tried to share here. I find that many many scriptures have come to be clear due to the simple understanding that was NEVER taught to me by men in ANY denomination I have attended. Regeneration is a LITERAL rebirth / restoration of our human spirit to how God originaly intended it to be and function. Its quite simple really and should not be so much of an affront to any true christian who struggles to overcome sin or the flesh as its clearly how God will give us a way to overcome where none existed (hench the type and shadow of Israel passing through the red sea is its TYPE).
Rather we should be rejoicing in that God has heled us to walm in the measure and stature of Christ IF we will be spiritualy minded.
The sad state of spiritual maturity in the christians of America today does NOT speak favorably of the high minded intellectual scholars who seek to divert the scriptures to satisify thier already errant positions and carnal understandings.This being a repeated pattern in all organized religions and schools of a inevitable failing to maintain true spiritual life and grasp of Gods word; SOME remanant is always excepted since God will always have some.
WE have more Bible "cemetaries" and liberal left anti-christ theologians than most countries in the world, yet America's spirituality is NOT the standard of holiness and truth that many men in persecution in the rest of the world and ignorance of words like soteriology have exhibited. Ichabod
Lifesharer

[lifesharer]

I believe that both Smaller and Starkman have some good points, but it still amazes me that you have not grasped the real defintion of regeneration in your comments.
Regeneration is The Holy Spirit LITERALY rebirthing/ restoring OUR spirit (john 3:6) which is what paliggenesia MEANS. And what God said he would do in Ez. 11:19. This rebirth restores the functions of our spirit ( communion intuition and conscience) enabling us to participate in the KINGDOM because we can NOW exercise spiritual abilities and come to spiritual mindedness and maturity which is not possible for a unregenerated person.
The " water" in JOhn 3:5 is Jesus' answer to Nic. It refers to the cultural religious terminology concept of being born in the "linage of Abraham", of which we are grafted (adopted) into by our faith. Jesus, as was customary in those days, always answered the questioners question then gave more truth. This is a traditional judaic/ eastern manner used in such situations. BY answering this way Jesus addressed Nic's confusion about physical birth while NOT embarrasing Him before the people Nic was suppose to lead as a spiritual teacher himself. (He made Nic his sidekick, so to speak, as the means to bounce this idea off of; so others would understand better )
Both JOhn 3:5 and it's reiteration by Jesus (John 3:6) are a dual dialouge consisting of two parts: the answer to Nics question: A) 3:5, water / 3:6, born of the flesh and: B) born by the (3:5), Spirit; (3:6)our spirit. This dual dialouge fits perfectly with the understanding of customary practices and the religious and slang terminology of that day. It is in fact a BRILLANT answer to Nics question. and since Ro. 2: 28-29 + Col. 2: 11-14 and Ro. chapter 6 support the truth that regeneration of men occurs at the time of water baptism ("circumcision of the heart" being an allegorical name for this) it has a third meaning in it which is not appearant.
The term: "remission of sin(S)" is another judeo religious concept which has not been understood by many today. Where the plural usage (sin(S)) is used it refer NOT to sins we have done in particular, since only the shed Blood can wash those away scripturaly speaking, but to a NATURE which is changed. (Regeneration is a return to a former nature; based on it's root word meanings). And this regeneration occurs at the time of baptism as in John's baptism for the "remission of sins". So we have this hidden third meaning to "water" which is to my mind: quite extraordinary!
"Remission of sins" is another name for regeneration. It is one of many in scriptures.
Nic DID understand what being born into the family of God and according to judeo doctrine that was by physical birth. Through the promise given to Abraham, yet they failed to see that it was singular "seed" (refering to Jesus) and NOT plural seeds. We who are of the faith of Abraham are adopted into that family.
Finaly the lack of understanding we as unregenerated men have is not because of sin itself, but because of this cut off spirit unable to "know the things of God" (1Cor. 2: 9-16) the unregenerated man must rely upon the carnal soul's intellect which is faulty and unable to rightly divide the word by itself.

Nicodemus SHOULD have seen the obvious statements in the Old Testament, that ALL OF ISRAEL are God's Children.

As such they were SEPARATED OUT OF GOD and MADE TO BE GOD'S CHILDREN and SENT INTO THE EARTH of their bodies being born of SPIRIT and of WATER (hello-water sac,) and were thus "born again."

Jesus said to Nicodemus that He spoke to him of "earthly things." Nicodemus did not understand. His understanding was darkened, as it is with ALL MEN, by the SIN INDWELLING THEM who is NOT THEM.

"God bound all men to disobedience SO THAT He may have MERCY upon ALL MEN." Romans 11:32

All of Israel shall be saved, even the enemies of The Gospel. So it is with the Gentiles as well, as God is God of BOTH.

[themuzicman]

well Micheal you are not getting what I am saying either it seems,lolol

What I see is you using scripture improperly.

Irreguardless of what your assumed context IS,.... I see a clear parallel to the concept of regeneration of men's spirits as essential to attain spiritual maturity and abilities and our abilities to be "judges" ( SEE 1 Cor. 2: 15 ( the SPIRITUAL MAN....) which is what "Thrones" refers to or suggests.

1 Cor 2:14, in reference to the unspiritual man, is referring to those who are already saved. It points to the Corinthian church, who has not matured sufficiently to receive the wisdom of God. Go read the whole chapter (or start with the beginning of the book) to get the context. So, "spiritual man" does not refer to all those who are saved.

SECONDLY: you fail to grasp that irrequardless of the final outcome of the exegesis of this passage it is NOT the cornerstone or foundation of the concept of regeneration as used in titus 3:5 John 3:6, Ezekiel 11: 19, ro. 2: 28-29 + Col. 2: 11-14, Ro. 6-8:1-17 and other clear verses which DO speak to a LITERAL rebirthing of our human spirit as the foundation of spiritual life and maturity essential to a christian who wants to "enter the KINGDOM ".

Then make your case based upon these, and without Matt 19.

seems you so addicted to being right your willing to ignore the true importance of Jesuis' teachings on regeneration in order that a very archaic and somewhat suspect belief about what this verse speaks to is more important than the REAL issue: OUR regeneration.

What I'm addicted to is truth, and in this case, truly exegeting scripture properly (oops... does that count as a big word?)

why don't we agree to disagree on this verse so that we can discuss the REAL subject ? OK ?

As long as we don't assume your point about this verse, ok.

Lifesharer OH and Michael , I have LONG since lost any appreciation or awe for large words, like soterology or ontology when trying to relate the simplicity of scriptures
Please refrain from using them if you wish to discuss with me as it will aid normal people to understand the points you are trying to make. Thank you

I use them because they accurately represent what I wish to say. If you want to understand them get a dictionary.

www.dictionary.com

Michael

[lifesharer]

Sorry Micheal its a waste of time to pursue your fixation further. Irreguardless of this verse's final intend . it is neither important to or foundational to the subject of this post . Your wasting everyone time by harping on it and being unable to grasp the plain meaning due to excessive intellectualism and poor reasoning skills, as well as no spiritual discernment of the issue itself which is REGENERATION of MEN. ENOUGH,..... further comments from you will be ignored as useless and without spiritual discernment.
TY bye .

[lifesharer]

Icheal if you had any respect to others in Christ and paid attention to my posts you would have NOTED that i said regeneration is NOT " salvation" how typicaly you ignore all put that which you wish to rend!.
I see that your incapable of following the simple logic of this study?? Why is that?
Regeneration for your information is a LITERAL rebirth of your human spirit and nothing more or less. Salvation is your positional standing before God to be enabled to spend eternity with God, nothing more of less. Simple huh!? I encourage you to repent of intellecual pride and soulical works which have blinded you to the real meaning of Matt. 19: 28 and to the SUBJECT of this study which is NOT based on mastt 19: 28 but onmany many other verse. The SUBJECT which you seem incapable of understanding or following.
Lifesharer

[themuzicman]

Sorry Micheal its a waste of time to pursue your fixation further. Irreguardless of this verse's final intend . it is neither important to or foundational to the subject of this post . Your wasting everyone time by harping on it and being unable to grasp the plain meaning due to excessive intellectualism and poor reasoning skills, as well as no spiritual discernment of the issue itself which is REGENERATION of MEN. ENOUGH,..... further comments from you will be ignored as useless and without spiritual discernment.
TY bye .

Well, i would encourage you to enroll in a hermeneutics class at a good seminary (preferably at a master's level) or find some good books on heremeneutics (Fee & Stuart come to mind) so that you may exegete scripture properly.

Michael

[lifesharer]

Thanks BUT NO thanks those schools of foolishness and human endeavor are WHY we have "higher criticism" and other such nonsense! I believe God when he said that the holy Spirit will guide us into all truth. IF men need such schools God would have said so but did NOT because the things of God are spiritualy discerned and and NOT based in intellectual efforts. I HAVE rightly understood this verse. and suspect your position is based on the effort of men rather than the Spirit.
BYE

[themuzicman]

Odd how those who are shown to be wrong wrap themselves in the false dichotomy between the Holy Spirit and intellectual efforts.

Michael

[lifesharer]

wanna bet ?
If it will get you to quit being a carnal man i will allow you your false sense of superiority as Gods word CLEARLY says I am right in 1Cor. 2: 9-16 and that your high minded legalistic flesh has quenched the Spirit in this study , YOUR'S ALONE!