Republicans at it Again?

[TheOneAndOnly]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3956129.stm

A secret document obtained from inside Bush campaign headquarters in Florida suggests a plan - possibly in violation of US law - to disrupt voting in the state's African-American voting districts, a BBC Newsnight investigation reveals.

Two e-mails, prepared for the executive director of the Bush campaign in Florida and the campaign's national research director in Washington DC, contain a 15-page so-called "caging list".

It lists 1,886 names and addresses of voters in predominantly black and traditionally Democrat areas of Jacksonville, Florida.

An elections supervisor in Tallahassee, when shown the list, told Newsnight: "The only possible reason why they would keep such a thing is to challenge voters on election day."

Ion Sancho, a Democrat, noted that Florida law allows political party operatives inside polling stations to stop voters from obtaining a ballot.

Mass challenges

They may then only vote "provisionally" after signing an affidavit attesting to their legal voting status.

Mass challenges have never occurred in Florida. Indeed, says Mr Sancho, not one challenge has been made to a voter "in the 16 years I've been supervisor of elections."

"Quite frankly, this process can be used to slow down the voting process and cause chaos on election day; and discourage voters from voting."

Sancho calls it "intimidation." And it may be illegal.

In Washington, well-known civil rights attorney, Ralph Neas, noted that US federal law prohibits targeting challenges to voters, even if there is a basis for the challenge, if race is a factor in targeting the voters.

The list of Jacksonville voters covers an area with a majority of black residents.

When asked by Newsnight for an explanation of the list, Republican spokespersons claim the list merely records returned mail from either fundraising solicitations or returned letters sent to newly registered voters to verify their addresses for purposes of mailing campaign literature.

Republican state campaign spokeswoman Mindy Tucker Fletcher stated the list was not put together "in order to create" a challenge list, but refused to say it would not be used in that manner.

Rather, she did acknowledge that the party's poll workers will be instructed to challenge voters, "Where it's stated in the law."

There was no explanation as to why such clerical matters would be sent to top officials of the Bush campaign in Florida and Washington.

Private detective

In Jacksonville, to determine if Republicans were using the lists or other means of intimidating voters, we filmed a private detective filming every "early voter" - the majority of whom are black - from behind a vehicle with blacked-out windows.

The private detective claimed not to know who was paying for his all-day services.

On the scene, Democratic Congresswoman Corinne Brown said the surveillance operation was part of a campaign of intimidation tactics used by the Republican Party to intimate and scare off African American voters, almost all of whom are registered Democrats.



Now remember, don't shoot the messenger.

[Captain Ochre]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3956129.stm


Now remember, don't shoot the messenger.

Is the messenger aware of the "provisional voting" rules implemented after 2002, without knowledge of which it is probably impossible to fairly judge the information that you presented?

[edit to add]
Actually this case looks more like an attempt to collect evidence of possible voter fraud, given that so many registration forms have been apparently bogus.

If you want to intimidate voters, you dont' hide the camera--unless you're blackmailing the subject with what you capture on video.

[edit again to add]:

And what's this "at it again" business?

[TheOneAndOnly]

Is the messenger aware of the "provisional voting" rules implemented after 2002, without knowledge of which it is probably impossible to fairly judge the information that you presented?

Probably not, since I haven't got a clue what you're talking about. Frankly I've stayed out of the US election debates on this board (for the most part), but I simply posted this as it seemed interesting and pertinent to Americans and others who are interested. It's up to you to digest and critique the article. Don't shoot the messenger.


[edit to add]
Actually this case looks more like an attempt to collect evidence of possible voter fraud, given that so many registration forms have been apparently bogus.

If you want to intimidate voters, you dont' hide the camera--unless you're blackmailing the subject with what you capture on video.

True.


[edit again to add]:

And what's this "at it again" business?

Republicans-Florida-Elections. You connect the dots. (note I put a question mark at the end of the title.)

[Captain Ochre]

Probably not, since I haven't got a clue what you're talking about. Frankly I've stayed out of the US election debates on this board (for the most part), but I simply posted this as it seemed interesting and pertinent to Americans and others who are interested. It's up to you to digest and critique the article. Don't shoot the messenger.

The messenger added editorial content via his thread title.
Stay low.
:wink:


Republicans-Florida-Elections. You connect the dots. (note I put a question mark at the end of the title.)

There was no credible evidence from the 2000 election that the Republicans made any sort of effort to intimidate voters.
An investigation was done, and the anecdotal evidence was made up of things like "There was a squad car near the polling place." Why that would intimadate somebody who was only there to vote (while not being wanted by the law) is frankly beyond me. There was a squad car near my polling place a few elections ago. Maybe one would have to be a minority to perceive the intimidation factor. I didn't detect it.

So, my complaint with the messenger is that he uses a story of dubious value to lend implicit credence to a myth about the 2000 election.

[Jimmy Higgins]

Is the messenger aware of the "provisional voting" rules implemented after 2002, without knowledge of which it is probably impossible to fairly judge the information that you presented?Well, NPR had a thing this morning regarding Republicans having advisors at the polls in Ohio. It was a talk show, and it was a Republican that was saying this. The whole point is to challenge voters. But I've got to wonder, how would they know who to challenge?


Actually this case looks more like an attempt to collect evidence of possible voter fraud, given that so many registration forms have been apparently bogus.How'd they get the names?

[Captain Ochre]

Well, NPR had a thing this morning regarding Republicans having advisors at the polls in Ohio. It was a talk show, and it was a Republican that was saying this. The whole point is to challenge voters. But I've got to wonder, how would they know who to challenge?

By their "Kerry for Prez" buttons?

Your report is short on detail, sir.


How'd they get the names?

From me. I gave them the names.

Only kidding.

I don't know specifically how they obtained the names, but the earlier article said something about lacking responses from direct mailings.
Voter rolls are public, I suspect.

Florida:
State voter records have been open to public inspection for years, along with voter rolls kept by counties.
http://news.tbo.com/news/MGB086487WD.html

[Jimmy Higgins]

By their "Kerry for Prez" buttons?

Your report is short on detail, sir.Sorry. The guy just said they wanted to be their to ensure the voter's rights were enabled, whatever that means. I just think that its awfully bizarre that Dems and Repubs are sending their minions to the polls in Ohio and Florida, and perhaps elsewhere. If it were in that much doubt, shouldn't a third party be called in?


From me. I gave them the names.

Only kidding.

I don't know specifically how they obtained the names, but the earlier article said something about lacking responses from direct mailings.
Voter rolls are public, I suspect.Hmmm. They mentioned that direct mailings thing on NPR. That ballots were mailed out but were returned because no one lived their anymore. I think this, the people on the show, was referring specifically to Cuyahoga County (read Cleveland). The Democrat said people moved. And that could be very well true. And some could be illegimate registrations.


Florida:
State voter records have been open to public inspection for years, along with voter rolls kept by counties.
http://news.tbo.com/news/MGB086487WD.htmlThose can't possibly be up to date though, can they? There must be a lag in there somewhere. That would also suggest that these records are being matched to other records. I don't know how much I like third parties doing that. And furthermore, if these people are not legit voters, why weren't they contested well before the election!?

All of this stuff is making me very uneasy.

[Captain Ochre]

Sorry. The guy just said they wanted to be their to ensure the voter's rights were enabled, whatever that means. I just think that its awfully bizarre that Dems and Repubs are sending their minions to the polls in Ohio and Florida, and perhaps elsewhere. If it were in that much doubt, shouldn't a third party be called in?

Like who, who like?
Seems like most supposed third parties have a bias. Having the major parties policing the process ensures that neither side gets a distinct advantage if there's shady stuff going on.
So long as the policing is legal, anyway.


Hmmm. They mentioned that direct mailings thing on NPR. That ballots were mailed out but were returned because no one lived their anymore. I think this, the people on the show, was referring specifically to Cuyahoga County (read Cleveland). The Democrat said people moved. And that could be very well true. And some could be illegimate registrations.

Agreed. In either case, the registrant should not vote in that district unless the move was within the district.


Those can't possibly be up to date though, can they?

Seems like they could, unless we count provisional voters.
It is, after all, the same sort of list that the precincts use on election day.


There must be a lag in there somewhere.

No doubt--but OTOH people have been newly registering to vote for quite some time.


That would also suggest that these records are being matched to other records. I don't know how much I like third parties doing that.

Welcome to the Computer Age. There's not much to be done about it.


And furthermore, if these people are not legit voters, why weren't they contested well before the election!?

Maybe because there's a lag in there somewhere.
:smile:


All of this stuff is making me very uneasy.

Join the club.
:frown:

I'm concerned that the provisional voting deal could make a real mess of this election. Almost-good idea turning very bad indeed, IMHO.
We're looking at the possibility of contest proceedings based on allegations of fraud based on solid evidence--and that evidence could potentially be widespread.
Here's hoping that my Republican colleagues keep their mitts clean, and that the election gives us a true legitimate winner untainted by cheating.

[Jimmy Higgins]

Maybe because there's a lag in there somewhere.
:smile:If that was the lag, they wouldn't have them on the voter registration rolls.



Join the club.
:frown:

I'm concerned that the provisional voting deal could make a real mess of this election. Dude, provisional votes are the least of the problems. We've got partisan officials in the polls to police the polls? I just don't find any comfort in that. If neither side can be trusted, how can they be trusted to cancel each other out? I don't like it at all.


Here's hoping that my Republican colleagues keep their mitts clean, and that the election gives us a true legitimate winner untainted by cheating.Yeah right, and the Democrats are going to be clean too. :ahem:

This has 1876 written all over it. And the US will become a laughing stock to the World. Our democracy is at stake here. And what is the most unbelievable of all this, we had 4 years to prevent this from happening. 4 years! And right now, the populous is too polarized to care. Rather, its democrats do this or republicans do that. Governments are failing us, not democrats or republicans. Governments!

[Captain Ochre]

If that was the lag, they wouldn't have them on the voter registration rolls.

Don't blame me! It was your theory!
:smile:



Dude, provisional votes are the least of the problems. We've got partisan officials in the polls to police the polls?

Yep, and we've got partisan judges working the olympics. The former is the greater problem, afaics.


I just don't find any comfort in that. If neither side can be trusted, how can they be trusted to cancel each other out? I don't like it at all.

Each side will be policing the other. You don't think you can trust them to look closely at what the other guy is doing?
Seems to me that's as close to a guarantee as you could possibly hope for.


Yeah right, and the Democrats are going to be clean too. :ahem:

I don't see anything wrong with me hoping that my party doesn't do anything illegal, and further I don't see any reason to put an eye-rolling smilie up in response to what I said.
One would think that Jimmy thinks that I secretly hope that the Republicans out-cheat the opposition.


This has 1876 written all over it. And the US will become a laughing stock to the World.

Thank Al Gore.
:smile:


Our democracy is at stake here. And what is the most unbelievable of all this, we had 4 years to prevent this from happening. 4 years! And right now, the populous is too polarized to care. Rather, its democrats do this or republicans do that. Governments are failing us, not democrats or republicans. Governments!

The government is only failing us because the more radical types in the parties are failing us. The corrective laws were well-intentioned, but the shady types quickly figured out ways to exploit loopholes (legally and otherwise).
You can't legislate morality in terms of making the people moral through the passage of law. There are people involved in both major parties who see the election as so crucial that they are willing to cheat in order to obtain the result that they wish to see.

People like that need to be prosecuted when they break the laws. The prosecution should be such that it deters further shenanigans.
Lawsuits such as the one that challenged election results in 2000 in a way not in accord with the legislative scheme in Florida, and those that seek ludicrous expansion of provisional voting need to be struck down by the courts (constructionist judges are more likely to accomplish that task, fwiw).

When the illegal stuff isn't worth it, then it will subside.