Islam and terrorism

[raj215]

can anyone help me fine two islamic sources?
1. the source that validates terrorism
2. the sources that refute terrorism

[Rdr. Arsenios]

The following is from: http://www.zipcon.net/OCW/2004/ocw_1540.html

A MUSLIM SECT TURNS VICE INTO A TOOL AGAINST WESTERN ENEMIES

Investigators of the 3/11 terrorist attack on Spain have found that the leader of the radical Islamic cell was a drug dealer who traded a load of hashish for the explosives that killed 191 people. Spanish authorities are finding that the al-Qaeda-related terrorists are also tangled up in organized crime, the underworld of robbery, counterfeiting, fraud, drug dealing, and murder.

How can that be? A Muslim who steals is to have his hand cut off. Islam forbids the use of drugs. How can there be an alliance between fundamentalist Islam and organized crime? The answer, reports Sebastian Rotella of the Los Angeles Times, is the existence of a particular Islamic sect: the Takfirs. Nearly all of today's radical Islamic groups trace their lineage to the Muslim Brotherhood, which was founded in the 1960s. One offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood was an order called the Takfir wal Hijra. The name means "Excommunication and Exile." Outwardly, members appear to be excommunicated from Islam, conforming to Western ways and even Western vices. But inwardly, they are devout Muslims in exile in a strange land. This split between their outward behavior and their inner piety is justified, according to Takfir theology, as a tactic of jihad. "Takfiris accept drinking and vice and encourage short hair, fashionable dress, and an outwardly Western lifestyle as a holy warrior's disguise against detection," explains Mr. Rotella. "In the Takfir creed of outward conformity and internal exile, crime is a means of waging war against the West."

The 9/11 terrorists fit the Takfir profile: They were clean-cut, wore Western clothing, and spent the days before their "martyrdom" drinking in strip clubs and receiving lap dances. The biggest breeding ground for Takfiri is the underworld of Northern Africa and Europe, with its vast underclass of Muslim immigrants. The major center of Takfiri evangelism, if one can call it that, is prison. Mr. Rotella quotes De Bousquet de Florian, the French intelligence chief: "Crime that was once practiced with no trace of an Islamic reference, once they have converted, rather naturally acquires an objective, a justification, a religious legitimization. Because the base of Takfir doctrine explains that crime can be committed for the good of the cause." Takfir is spreading beyond the European immigrant community. Reportedly, a leader of the Mafia in Naples has converted to Islam. According to an Italian prosecutor, he has set up an operation with terrorists trading arms for drugs.

Criminals are human beings. They may feel plagued by guilt. A Christian chaplain can offer them Christ's forgiveness for what they have done and usher them into a new life in the gospel. A Takfir imam can offer them a redemption that allows them to remain criminals. Crime even can become a means of redemption. According to Islam - and this is orthodox Islam, not just this particular sect - after death a person's deeds are weighed in a balance: Those whose evil deeds outweigh the good deeds they performed in their lives are thrown into hell. If the good deeds outweigh the evil deeds, the person will be accepted into paradise. But it is impossible to know whether one's deeds are sufficient for salvation.

But those who wage jihad, holy war, against non-Muslims can have their sins forgiven. Dying as a "martyr" while killing the enemies of Allah is about the only way a person can be assured of going to paradise. For a criminal weighed down by his bad deeds, knowing that he faces certain damnation, the gospel of jihad will appear as very good news indeed. And he doesn't even have to change his ways. Rather, he can feel self-righteous, even as he retains his vices, giving his life meaning as he strikes at the infidels by stealing from them, selling them drugs, or blowing them up. Takfir shows how a legalistic religion can be twisted to justify sin. It is reminiscent of the thugee, the Hindu sect that committed murder as a sacrifice to the god Kali, from which we get the word thug. Takfir may have a direct relationship to the hashishiyyin, the Muslim sect that would consume hashish as a prelude to the murder of enemy leaders, from which we get the word assassin. Postmodernists, relativists, and ecumenical types who believe that all the world's religions are essentially the same and all equally beneficial should consider the Takfirs. Before the Takfirs get hold of them.

[Jude3b]

The following is from: http://www.zipcon.net/OCW/2004/ocw_1540.html

A MUSLIM SECT TURNS VICE INTO A TOOL AGAINST WESTERN ENEMIES

Investigators of the 3/11 terrorist attack on Spain have found that the leader of the radical Islamic cell was a drug dealer who traded a load of hashish for the explosives that killed 191 people. Spanish authorities are finding that the al-Qaeda-related terrorists are also tangled up in organized crime, the underworld of robbery, counterfeiting, fraud, drug dealing, and murder.

How can that be? A Muslim who steals is to have his hand cut off. Islam forbids the use of drugs. How can there be an alliance between fundamentalist Islam and organized crime? The answer, reports Sebastian Rotella of the Los Angeles Times, is the existence of a particular Islamic sect: the Takfirs. Nearly all of today's radical Islamic groups trace their lineage to the Muslim Brotherhood, which was founded in the 1960s. One offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood was an order called the Takfir wal Hijra. The name means "Excommunication and Exile." Outwardly, members appear to be excommunicated from Islam, conforming to Western ways and even Western vices. But inwardly, they are devout Muslims in exile in a strange land. This split between their outward behavior and their inner piety is justified, according to Takfir theology, as a tactic of jihad. "Takfiris accept drinking and vice and encourage short hair, fashionable dress, and an outwardly Western lifestyle as a holy warrior's disguise against detection," explains Mr. Rotella. "In the Takfir creed of outward conformity and internal exile, crime is a means of waging war against the West."

The 9/11 terrorists fit the Takfir profile: They were clean-cut, wore Western clothing, and spent the days before their "martyrdom" drinking in strip clubs and receiving lap dances. The biggest breeding ground for Takfiri is the underworld of Northern Africa and Europe, with its vast underclass of Muslim immigrants. The major center of Takfiri evangelism, if one can call it that, is prison. Mr. Rotella quotes De Bousquet de Florian, the French intelligence chief: "Crime that was once practiced with no trace of an Islamic reference, once they have converted, rather naturally acquires an objective, a justification, a religious legitimization. Because the base of Takfir doctrine explains that crime can be committed for the good of the cause." Takfir is spreading beyond the European immigrant community. Reportedly, a leader of the Mafia in Naples has converted to Islam. According to an Italian prosecutor, he has set up an operation with terrorists trading arms for drugs.

Criminals are human beings. They may feel plagued by guilt. A Christian chaplain can offer them Christ's forgiveness for what they have done and usher them into a new life in the gospel. A Takfir imam can offer them a redemption that allows them to remain criminals. Crime even can become a means of redemption. According to Islam - and this is orthodox Islam, not just this particular sect - after death a person's deeds are weighed in a balance: Those whose evil deeds outweigh the good deeds they performed in their lives are thrown into hell. If the good deeds outweigh the evil deeds, the person will be accepted into paradise. But it is impossible to know whether one's deeds are sufficient for salvation.

But those who wage jihad, holy war, against non-Muslims can have their sins forgiven. Dying as a "martyr" while killing the enemies of Allah is about the only way a person can be assured of going to paradise. For a criminal weighed down by his bad deeds, knowing that he faces certain damnation, the gospel of jihad will appear as very good news indeed. And he doesn't even have to change his ways. Rather, he can feel self-righteous, even as he retains his vices, giving his life meaning as he strikes at the infidels by stealing from them, selling them drugs, or blowing them up. Takfir shows how a legalistic religion can be twisted to justify sin. It is reminiscent of the thugee, the Hindu sect that committed murder as a sacrifice to the god Kali, from which we get the word thug. Takfir may have a direct relationship to the hashishiyyin, the Muslim sect that would consume hashish as a prelude to the murder of enemy leaders, from which we get the word assassin. Postmodernists, relativists, and ecumenical types who believe that all the world's religions are essentially the same and all equally beneficial should consider the Takfirs. Before the Takfirs get hold of them.

Dear George:

Thank you for this informative post. It is eye opening and explains a lot of what has been going on.

[raj215]

Dear George:

Thank you for this informative post. It is eye opening and explains a lot of what has been going on.
I do not know where you are getting your infornation but if you are ready to discuss islam and is teachings, let me know :eek:

[Warcraft3]

I do not know where you are getting your infornation but if you are ready to discuss islam and is teachings, let me know :eek:

The source was listed right after the words "The following is from" in the post George made.

If you want to discuss other sources then just go ahead and make a post.......asking people if they are "ready to discuss" means nothing, becasue if you are looking for people to agree with you then you might want to look in other places than a debate site.

If you are here to eductae people with your perspective, then just go ahead and make a post. Saying things like: When you are "ready" (whatever you mean by "ready") to discuss ***insert some topic here***, let me know....doesnt really lead to discussion.

If you have something to say, just say it.




Russ

[raj215]

Dear friend I have plenty to say. first, i must restate my original position. you cant judge a religion by the action of some of its members. If I did that, I could say that all christians are homosexuals - look what is happening in the church. Or that they are murders -Jim Jones. I could list thousands of crimes committed by people who claim to be christian. Scarfo, capoine. Does that mean that all christians are criminals

[Augustine2004]

Can someone point to an estimate of how many Takfirs there may be in the world? And roughly what % of the Islamic terrorists do they constitute?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Can someone point to an estimate of how many Takfirs there may be in the world? And roughly what % of the Islamic terrorists do they constitute?


In warfare terms, they are simply imbedded, blending into the culture, awaiting their call to action, just like in any spy novel... Identifying them is hard. What you will not find them imbedded within is Christian Orthodoxy, and by far, the vast majority of the Arabs in the US are Christians, who are here so that they can survive... I really do think you will look along time to find an imbedded Muslim in the Christian Arabic Orthodox Church [That is MY Church, btw - The Antiochian dioscese or the Syrian Church - My bishop is Arabic] Us Orthodox Christians know our own!

So that identifying them is virtually impossible... Unless you are a mind-reader...

That is how Islam invades a country, like Kosovo - They emigrate Moslem families into the country, and they live there peacefully, and they form the human infrastructure that supports the 'criminal element' of Islamics who run around and create mayhem and disruption of the non-islamic government... And when that government reacts, or over reacts, they are watched, and the opportunities for further dicruption are determined and exploited... They have been taking over countries in the middle east like that for 1300 years - And to the ones helping Allah to take over the world for Islam, non-Islamics are utterly dispensable, to be killed without any thought whatsoever if doing so is seen as helpful for their purposes... In their way of thinking, killing you is a granting to you of the mercy of God...

And normal, peaceful Muslims have not had any ability to oppose them...

I remember a Special Forces captain explaining to me how there is this "criminal element" blowing up Christian Churches and monasteries in Kosovo under UN oversight, and how hard it was to stop them... And how they would attack anyone not a Muslim if not protected by force of arms... And thanks to us, that country has been virtually turned over to Islam - A fact not lost on the Islamic world...

I was impressed by the last night of two of the hijackers discovered by investigating them in Florida - They went to a strippers bar in the sleezy part of town, got into a fight, and left to kill thousands in burning JP4 the next morning... When I first heard this, I thought they were just getting their sexual thrills prior to their sure deaths to come, but now I am persuaded that they went there to get very clear in their minds what it is that their deaths were to work to destroy, for if there is a "Great Satan" in the US, is is the sex and intoxicant businesses, the sleeze-fare that is only matched by the amount of fat Americans are putting on their bodies...

Lord have mercy!

Billy Graham spoke well when he said that 9/11 was a call to American Repentance... His words, of course, were lost on all of us... For now we are sending men to die in Irak ostensibly to establish freedom there, which is noble and well, but in terms of us here, so that we can be free to stuff our faces and submerge into the sleezy ooze of porn and self gratification...

Anti porn is good...

But it is not enough to be opposed - what one affirms is much more important than what one opposes... I share the Islamic horror with our cultural exporting of materialism and sex... Hustler offered to send free magazines to our troops in Irak... In the name of Americanism... Red-White and Blue...

Lord have mercy!

Arsenios

[raj215]

In warfare terms, they are simply imbedded, blending into the culture, awaiting their call to action, just like in any spy novel... Identifying them is hard. What you will not find them imbedded within is Christian Orthodoxy, and by far, the vast majority of the Arabs in the US are Christians, who are here so that they can survive... I really do think you will look along time to find an imbedded Muslim in the Christian Arabic Orthodox Church [That is MY Church, btw - The Antiochian dioscese or the Syrian Church - My bishop is Arabic] Us Orthodox Christians know our own!

So that identifying them is virtually impossible... Unless you are a mind-reader...

That is how Islam invades a country, like Kosovo - They emigrate Moslem families into the country, and they live there peacefully, and they form the human infrastructure that supports the 'criminal element' of Islamics who run around and create mayhem and disruption of the non-islamic government... And when that government reacts, or over reacts, they are watched, and the opportunities for further dicruption are determined and exploited... They have been taking over countries in the middle east like that for 1300 years - And to the ones helping Allah to take over the world for Islam, non-Islamics are utterly dispensable, to be killed without any thought whatsoever if doing so is seen as helpful for their purposes... In their way of thinking, killing you is a granting to you of the mercy of God...

And normal, peaceful Muslims have not had any ability to oppose them...

I remember a Special Forces captain explaining to me how there is this "criminal element" blowing up Christian Churches and monasteries in Kosovo under UN oversight, and how hard it was to stop them... And how they would attack anyone not a Muslim if not protected by force of arms... And thanks to us, that country has been virtually turned over to Islam - A fact not lost on the Islamic world...

I was impressed by the last night of two of the hijackers discovered by investigating them in Florida - They went to a strippers bar in the sleezy part of town, got into a fight, and left to kill thousands in burning JP4 the next morning... When I first heard this, I thought they were just getting their sexual thrills prior to their sure deaths to come, but now I am persuaded that they went there to get very clear in their minds what it is that their deaths were to work to destroy, for if there is a "Great Satan" in the US, is is the sex and intoxicant businesses, the sleeze-fare that is only matched by the amount of fat Americans are putting on their bodies...

Lord have mercy!

Billy Graham spoke well when he said that 9/11 was a call to American Repentance... His words, of course, were lost on all of us... For now we are sending men to die in Irak ostensibly to establish freedom there, which is noble and well, but in terms of us here, so that we can be free to stuff our faces and submerge into the sleezy ooze of porn and self gratification...

Anti porn is good...

But it is not enough to be opposed - what one affirms is much more important than what one opposes... I share the Islamic horror with our cultural exporting of materialism and sex... Hustler offered to send free magazines to our troops in Irak... In the name of Americanism... Red-White and Blue...

Lord have mercy!

Arsenios
It sounds like you are also talking about the many so-called devout christians woh sell drugs, rob steal, rape and are the heads of all the crime families. I think if you check out the prison population in the United States, you will find that 90 percent of these criminals are christian. So, would I be correct in assuming all christians are criminals including you

[Augustine2004]

I googled 'takfir' and this is one of the webpages that I found:
http://rantburg.com/popArticle.asp?ID=45754

[raj215]

[QUOTE=Augustine2004]I googled 'takfir' and this is one of the webpages that I found:
http://rantburg.com/popArticle.asp?ID=45754[/QUOTE

I read the web article. It still does not answer my question. the takfir sect are terrorist that are bent upon political change through violence. They are still a very small group compaired to the one billion muslims worldwide. So, how can you judge the one billion, based upon the actions a few hundered criminals who may hiding in the ranks of tht faithful.

[raj215]

[QUOTE=Augustine2004]I googled 'takfir' and this is one of the webpages that I found:
http://rantburg.com/popArticle.asp?ID=45754[/QUOTE

I read the web article. It still does not answer my question. the takfir sect are terrorist that are bent upon political change through violence. They are still a very small group compaired to the one billion muslims worldwide. So, how can you judge the one billion, based upon the actions a few hundered criminals who may hiding in the ranks of tht faithful.
If you find one bad apple in the basket, do you throw away the whole basket:apple: ????

[Jude3b]

It sounds like you are also talking about the many so-called devout christians woh sell drugs, rob steal, rape and are the heads of all the crime families. I think if you check out the prison population in the United States, you will find that 90 percent of these criminals are christian. So, would I be correct in assuming all christians are criminals including you

Dear raj215:

I seriously doubt that you have any idea what a true Christian is. Perhaps you can tell me what you think a Christian is and who they are??

I find that Non Christians - normally only view Christianity as a large religion with lots of denominations. That is not true Christianity - that is Churchianity or Christendom.

You know doubt will not understand or comprehend this, but, a true Christian is not a true Christian because they attend a particular denominational group or sect. A true Christian is someone who has a personal relationship with their Lord and Savior - Jesus Christ. They are born-again, saved and they Love God and their fellow man. They are not criminals and drug dealers - as you have implied.

You owe the church of God, the body of Christ - an apology!

[Augustine2004]

Raj, my apologies. I wanted to know the sizes of the terrorist groups, how bad the Islamic terrorism problem is.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I read the web article. It still does not answer my question. the takfir sect are terrorist that are bent upon political change through violence. They are still a very small group compaired to the one billion muslims worldwide. So, how can you judge the one billion, based upon the actions a few hundered criminals who may hiding in the ranks of tht faithful.


Islam has been steadily taking over the world for 1300 years. Most of its faithful are peaceful. It is the peaceful ones who move into new countries by emigration from Islamic countries and by conversion of native populations. When there are enough of them, as in Kosovo, so that they are indistinguishable from the existing population by language and appearance, the first phase of the takeover is in place, for among these are dedicated warriers, Takfirs and others, whose job it is to blend in and wreak their havoc upon the country in preparation for taking it over by terror and by force.

Meanwhile, in those countries now run under Islamic Law, hatred of all people non-Islamic is being taught in schools, and the idea of a holy war to cleanse the planet of infidels is implanted. You can see these angry and hateful mobs of men turned out in the streets, with teen-age boys as well, yelling their hatred and shaking their fists for the cameras... This produces a pool of fighters, cannon fodder really, for the leadership - The leaders, in the confusion of battles, slip away when the battle goes against them, to lead the fight another day, and the soldiers are left to die, as 1500 of them just did in Faluja, martyring themselves for the sake of getting themselves to heaven.

But as long as things are going well, they stay, and turn the country or area they control into a terrorist state, terrorizing the population, and trying to terrorize those outside it with beheadings on TV, and on and on... Those of Islam who love peace have no chance against these terrorist leaders. And it is these that use territory siezed and run by their terror who are directing the expansion of Islam as it takes over another country. And the Koran teaches violence and terror. Enemies are to be humiliated before they die...

Next comes, by way of the mosques, the additional soldiers and specialists who know how to create problems for the existing infidel populations and their governments, and this they do with ever increasing effectiveness. Time is not a factor. A few hundred years is no big deal... It is the struggle that matters, and they have a track record that goes back a long ways, and remember, all the Islamic countries were once Christian, and now, under Islamic Law, being a Christian in an Islamic country is not a safe thing to be. And converting from Islam to Christianity is punishable by death.

Have I said anything untrue so far, Raj?

I mean, don't Muslims believe in Allah? And don't they believe that infidels who do not believe in Allah with them under the Prophet are destined for eternal punishment? And don't they believe that they are doing God's work to kill infidels and take over the world for God?

[ And it is VERY interesting to note that since the fall of Saddam, there have been NO suicide bombings to speak of in Israel... He was the one giving the families of the 'martyrs' $25,000 per suicide mission... Yet all for God, yes?]

So on the issue of Islam and Terrorism, which is the title of your topic, Raj, we find that there is an intimate connection to both within Islam, first to properly subject the populations to God's will, and second to bring the whole world, country by country, under this same will, at the hands of the Islamic violent...

The US and its depravity in freedom, and Christian wrongs are NOT what you wanted to discuss, yes?

[geo] Arsenios

[raj215]

Dear raj215:

I seriously doubt that you have any idea what a true Christian is. Perhaps you can tell me what you think a Christian is and who they are??

I find that Non Christians - normally only view Christianity as a large religion with lots of denominations. That is not true Christianity - that is Churchianity or Christendom.

You know doubt will not understand or comprehend this, but, a true Christian is not a true Christian because they attend a particular denominational group or sect. A true Christian is someone who has a personal relationship with their Lord and Savior - Jesus Christ. They are born-again, saved and they Love God and their fellow man. They are not criminals and drug dealers - as you have implied.

You owe the church of God, the body of Christ - an apology!
Jude, I am perfectly clear on what a christian is. To be a christian is to be christ like. I think that Christ said something about throwing the first stone and there is also something in the bible about first thking the speck out of your own eye, then you can see clearly to point to the speck in someone else's eye. I say this for this reason: You say that Christians have a personal relationship with jesus, they are born again, saved and love god and their fellow human beings.

I dont know why you are persistant in believing that Muslims dont Love God, We are peace loving people, we believe in praying, fasting, giving and helping the poor and needy, and loving our fellow human beings. And just as you love jesus, we also hold a great respect for him and his teachings. We believe that he was born of a virgin and that he will return. However, as Muslims, we believe that God also raised another prophet after Jesus who is the Seal of the prophet, and this is the PROPHET that we follow.
If you search history with an open mind, you will find that Prophet Muhammad did no more that perform the same job as all the Prophets before him.
He called the people to worship one God, Do not give god any partners or associates, help the poor and needy, to do what is right and forbid what is wrong, love you fellow human beings

If I use your same principle "a true christian is not a true christian because they attend a particular denominational group or sect." I suscribe to that same position. Fortunely or unfortunely you have proven my point. A TRUE MUSLIM IS NOT A TRUE MUSLIM BECAUSE THEY ATTEND A PARTICULAR DENOMINATIONAL GROUP OR SECT.

Just because someone claims to be a Muslims, but is committing all types of wrongful deeds. He may be a muslim but is he a true muslim. According to Prophet Muhammad, when a person commits these wrongful acts he has stepped outside the realm of Islam. A true muslim obeys Allah and His Prophet:
Allah states "if anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. And (likewise) if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind"

Also the Prophet Muhammad said A person performs the deeds which to the people appears to be the deeds befitting the dwellers of Paradise, but he is in fact one of the dwellers of the fire. This I apply to the terrorist criminals who claim to be true muslims outwardly and think their cowardly acts of terrorism solidifiies their belief

I think you owe the true believers in Islam an apology because we are not terrorist:stunned:

[ekklesias]

you cant judge a religion by the action of some of its members.

I'm a little computer illeterate so I didn't know how to show that the above is a quote----I agree that you can not always judge a religion by the actions of it's members, but while I know that not all muslims are terrorists ALL of the terrorists have been muslims. Just one question---if the actions of these particular members go against what a sincere muslim believes why is there no denouncment of these actions from those in charge--where is the outrage that they should have for the "misconceptions" that these people have put in many minds? The Bible does say that we shall know them by their fruit and the fruit that I see isn't very good. I have even heard prominent muslims say that given the right circumstance things like the hostage crises in Russia is acceptable. What are we to do with that? Doesn't sound very peacfull to me, but maybe I've missed something cause sometimes I'm a little daft. As far as sources the best one is the Koran--I picked up a parallel copy (english beside the arabic) at my local library and in all honesty some of the stuff in there scared me, but as I already said maybe I missed something.

[Jude3b]

you cant judge a religion by the action of some of its members.

I'm a little computer illeterate so I didn't know how to show that the above is a quote----I agree that you can not always judge a religion by the actions of it's members, but while I know that not all muslims are terrorists ALL of the terrorists have been muslims. Just one question---if the actions of these particular members go against what a sincere muslim believes why is there no denouncment of these actions from those in charge--where is the outrage that they should have for the "misconceptions" that these people have put in many minds? The Bible does say that we shall know them by their fruit and the fruit that I see isn't very good. I have even heard prominent muslims say that given the right circumstance things like the hostage crises in Russia is acceptable. What are we to do with that? Doesn't sound very peacfull to me, but maybe I've missed something cause sometimes I'm a little daft. As far as sources the best one is the Koran--I picked up a parallel copy (english beside the arabic) at my local library and in all honesty some of the stuff in there scared me, but as I already said maybe I missed something.

Dear ekklesias:

You have asked an excellent question: "WHY IS THERE NO DENOUNCEMENT OF THESE (acts of terrorism) ACTIONS FROM THOSE IN CHARGE - WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE FOR THE MISCONCEPTIONS THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE PUT IN MANY MINDS?"

I wish we could get an answer to that from those who are Muslim and claim it to be a religion of peace. I would also like to know why many of the Muslims in Iraq have turned on the Christians in Iraq, if Islam is such a "religion of peace" - since the fall of Sadaam?

[jwkenne]

Jude, I am perfectly clear on what a christian is. To be a christian is to be christ like. I think that Christ said something about throwing the first stone and there is also something in the bible about first thking the speck out of your own eye, then you can see clearly to point to the speck in someone else's eye. I say this for this reason: You say that Christians have a personal relationship with jesus, they are born again, saved and love god and their fellow human beings.

I dont know why you are persistant in believing that Muslims dont Love God, We are peace loving people, we believe in praying, fasting, giving and helping the poor and needy, and loving our fellow human beings. And just as you love jesus, we also hold a great respect for him and his teachings. We believe that he was born of a virgin and that he will return. However, as Muslims, we believe that God also raised another prophet after Jesus who is the Seal of the prophet, and this is the PROPHET that we follow.
If you search history with an open mind, you will find that Prophet Muhammad did no more that perform the same job as all the Prophets before him.
He called the people to worship one God, Do not give god any partners or associates, help the poor and needy, to do what is right and forbid what is wrong, love you fellow human beings

If I use your same principle "a true christian is not a true christian because they attend a particular denominational group or sect." I suscribe to that same position. Fortunely or unfortunely you have proven my point. A TRUE MUSLIM IS NOT A TRUE MUSLIM BECAUSE THEY ATTEND A PARTICULAR DENOMINATIONAL GROUP OR SECT.

Just because someone claims to be a Muslims, but is committing all types of wrongful deeds. He may be a muslim but is he a true muslim. According to Prophet Muhammad, when a person commits these wrongful acts he has stepped outside the realm of Islam. A true muslim obeys Allah and His Prophet:
Allah states "if anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. And (likewise) if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind"

Also the Prophet Muhammad said A person performs the deeds which to the people appears to be the deeds befitting the dwellers of Paradise, but he is in fact one of the dwellers of the fire. This I apply to the terrorist criminals who claim to be true muslims outwardly and think their cowardly acts of terrorism solidifiies their belief

I think you owe the true believers in Islam an apology because we are not terrorist:stunned:


I am glad you brought this up. I am going to be brutally honest here, and come right out and say that I consider the religion of Islam to be a violent one. Now, I have nothing to gain form thinking this way. I would very much like, and indeed have tried, to understand the statements of people like yourself who claim that it is a peaceful faith. The problem is, everytime I try and discuss it, we get the same old rhetoric of "one bad apple" rhetoric. Well, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt here. I believe you to be an honest person. (I have no reason to think otherwise) Please explain to me how you interpret the many passages in the Koran where the prophet condones violence. I will list a couple, and I am sure, if you have any knowledge of the Koran at all, that you are familiar with others. One catch: Please, for the sake of clarity and common sense, do not bring up the Old Testament, or the atrocities committed in the name of the Christian God. If you wish to discuss soem of the difficult passages in the Old Testament, I would be more than happy to do so, but in a different thread, or at the very least after you have explained the "problems" with the Koran.

[17.16] And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.


[21.11] And how many a town which was iniquitous did We demolish, and We raised up after it another people!

[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Particularily the last two. I don't want to get into another one of those "my religion is better" arguments. I honestly would like to know how you interpret these passages.
Thanks.

[bhukkadakota]

Terrorists are NOT all muslims.

There has been condemnation from the muslim leaders about terrorism from all over the world, many muslims do not share the same view as Osama bin laden. The situation in iraq is very different. These people are fighting because they dont want to become a puppet country in the middle east for the united states.

[raj215]

I am glad you brought this up. I am going to be brutally honest here, and come right out and say that I consider the religion of Islam to be a violent one. Now, I have nothing to gain form thinking this way. I would very much like, and indeed have tried, to understand the statements of people like yourself who claim that it is a peaceful faith. The problem is, everytime I try and discuss it, we get the same old rhetoric of "one bad apple" rhetoric. Well, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt here. I believe you to be an honest person. (I have no reason to think otherwise) Please explain to me how you interpret the many passages in the Koran where the prophet condones violence. I will list a couple, and I am sure, if you have any knowledge of the Koran at all, that you are familiar with others. One catch: Please, for the sake of clarity and common sense, do not bring up the Old Testament, or the atrocities committed in the name of the Christian God. If you wish to discuss soem of the difficult passages in the Old Testament, I would be more than happy to do so, but in a different thread, or at the very least after you have explained the "problems" with the Koran.

[17.16] And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.


[21.11] And how many a town which was iniquitous did We demolish, and We raised up after it another people!

[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Particularily the last two. I don't want to get into another one of those "my religion is better" arguments. I honestly would like to know how you interpret these passages.
Thanks.
I will do my best to get you information on these ayats. I am not a Imam or a religious scholar only a muslim trying to do whats right

[Jude3b]

Jude, I am perfectly clear on what a christian is. To be a christian is to be christ like. I think that Christ said something about throwing the first stone and there is also something in the bible about first thking the speck out of your own eye, then you can see clearly to point to the speck in someone else's eye. I say this for this reason: You say that Christians have a personal relationship with jesus, they are born again, saved and love god and their fellow human beings.

I dont know why you are persistant in believing that Muslims dont Love God, We are peace loving people, we believe in praying, fasting, giving and helping the poor and needy, and loving our fellow human beings. And just as you love jesus, we also hold a great respect for him and his teachings. We believe that he was born of a virgin and that he will return. However, as Muslims, we believe that God also raised another prophet after Jesus who is the Seal of the prophet, and this is the PROPHET that we follow.
If you search history with an open mind, you will find that Prophet Muhammad did no more that perform the same job as all the Prophets before him.
He called the people to worship one God, Do not give god any partners or associates, help the poor and needy, to do what is right and forbid what is wrong, love you fellow human beings

If I use your same principle "a true christian is not a true christian because they attend a particular denominational group or sect." I suscribe to that same position. Fortunely or unfortunely you have proven my point. A TRUE MUSLIM IS NOT A TRUE MUSLIM BECAUSE THEY ATTEND A PARTICULAR DENOMINATIONAL GROUP OR SECT.

Just because someone claims to be a Muslims, but is committing all types of wrongful deeds. He may be a muslim but is he a true muslim. According to Prophet Muhammad, when a person commits these wrongful acts he has stepped outside the realm of Islam. A true muslim obeys Allah and His Prophet:
Allah states "if anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. And (likewise) if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind"

Also the Prophet Muhammad said A person performs the deeds which to the people appears to be the deeds befitting the dwellers of Paradise, but he is in fact one of the dwellers of the fire. This I apply to the terrorist criminals who claim to be true muslims outwardly and think their cowardly acts of terrorism solidifiies their belief

I think you owe the true believers in Islam an apology because we are not terrorist:stunned:

Dear raj215:

Thank you for this post. You claim that Muslims believe in Jesus Christ. As a Muslim you claim that Jesus was a prophet of God and the Son of Mary and that you have great respect for him.

It is unfortunate my friend but you and Islam do not believe in the biblical Jesus. The Bible teaches that Jesus is God's one and only Son. Jesus Himself thaught this, e.g., "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life... Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" (John 3:16, 18; cf. Matthew 11:27; 26:64). God himself declared of Jesus at His baptism, "And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased'" (Mt. 3:17; cf. 17:5). Virtually every book in the New Testament either declares or assumes that Jesus is God's unique Son.

On the other hand, Islam asserts that Jesus was merely one of God's many prophets or messengers, and not God's only Son. Muslims strongly reject the idea that Jesus is the Son of God because the Koran repeatedly emphasizes that Jesus Christ is not the literal Son of God. The Koran emphatically denies that Jesus Christ is the Son of God - again, a teaching Jesus Himself just as emphatically affirmed (John 3:16,18; 10-36-38).

Ali's translation of Sura 5:73,78 from the Koran reads, "They do blaspheme who say: 'God is Christ the son of Mary.'... Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle." Obviously, then, Muslims deny that Jesus Christ was God incarnate. "The Messiah, Jesus Son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God..." Sura 43:59 asserts: "Jesus was no more than a mortal whom (Allah) favored and made an example to the Israelites."

THE KORAN AND THE MUSLIM RELIGION ARE IN ERROR CONCERNING THEIR TEACHINGS ON THE MOST IMPORTANT MAN OF HISTORY, JESUS CHRIST. Islam claims that it honors and reverences Jesus, but it rejects what the Bible teaches about Him and what He taught about Himself.

So, raj215 you cannot possibly know what a true Christian is, because you don't know who the true Jesus Christ is. You have taken unto yourself a false Christ - which is no Christ at all. That is the danger of every religion. That is Satans number one plan. If he can cause someone to believe on a false Christ - he has them. One cannot be saved who believes on a false Christ. Religion will not save you my dear raj215. There is no heaven, no paradise in the future for people who deny the true Jesus
Christ and who do not believe on and trust in Him. The true Jesus Christ - the only true Lord and Savior, is your only hope of heaven. Religion and religious practices will not save you. I pray that you will consider this and take this to heart. Get yourself a New Testament and read it for yourself - praying to God in the name of Jesus Christ - asking Him to reveal to you the truth. He will make Himself real to you - if you let him. He will save you, just as He did me - if your will believe On and Trust His Son Jesus Christ as your Personal Lord and Savior. Repent of trying to earn heaven by religion and trust in Christ. He Loves you and died on the cruel cross for you - just like He did for me.

[bhukkadakota]

Well muslims do believe that the prophet muhammad was sent down because people had warped jesus's teachings and started believing jesus was god himself instead of a prophet.

How do you know this might not be true? Maybe the teachings of jesus was warped by matthew mark john and luke. Either way god does not discriminate against people because of what they believe in. I know jesus says that he is the only way to god but this is not true. I have it on authority from God himself that the only criteria is truly being a good person as he said to me 'all religions are right, in that if believing in that religion makes you a better person then its right'. Whether it be christianity, islam, buddhism, zoroastrianism etc. Dont be fooled into thinking any religion is superior than another, all this creates is division amongst humanity.

[jwkenne]

I will do my best to get you information on these ayats. I am not a Imam or a religious scholar only a muslim trying to do whats right

I am not sure that I understand you. You get on this board and speak of the "goodness" of the Islamic faith, and yet you have to research to reply to just a couple of passages from the Koran?

[jwkenne]

Well muslims do believe that the prophet muhammad was sent down because people had warped jesus's teachings and started believing jesus was god himself instead of a prophet.

I have it on authority from God himself that the only criteria is truly being a good person as he said to me 'all religions are right, in that if believing in that religion makes you a better person then its right'. .

Um, do you mean that God himself told you this? What else did he tell you? Did he mention anything about this weekend's lottery numbers?

[raj215]

Raj, my apologies. I wanted to know the sizes of the terrorist groups, how bad the Islamic terrorism problem is.
No, my apologies to you A2004. I should have answered your question. you seen to be very leavel headed ,and a good sincere person in Christ who is sincerely seeking information

[raj215]

I am not sure that I understand you. You get on this board and speak of the "goodness" of the Islamic faith, and yet you have to research to reply to just a couple of passages from the Koran?
I hope you dont think you are trying to make me or islam look bad by your dumb comment. That is one of the problems now, you have people opening there mouths about islam and they do not really know what they are talking. I was trying to give you an answer that is correct, not an answer on what I THINK a verse in the Quran means.

[jwkenne]

I hope you dont think you are trying to make me or islam look bad by your dumb comment. That is one of the problems now, you have people opening there mouths about islam and they do not really know what they are talking. I was trying to give you an answer that is correct, not an answer on what I THINK a verse in the Quran means.

I am not trying to make you or Islam "look bad", as you put it. I do, however, find it rather ironic that you, a muslim who declares it to be a peaceful religion, seems to be unable to answer the simple question of how you interpret these verses, without researching. I am not sure what you mean by a "correct answer". I want to know how YOU interpret them. That is it. It seems from your answer (or lack thereof) that you haven't even bothered to consider them, much less make a rational decision on what it is your prophet may be trying to say. Let;s be clear. There are MANY muslims around the world who interpret these, and many other passages in the Koran to be advocating violence toward the "infidel". If I understand you correctly, it is your argument that these people are not "true" muslims, because they are interpreting the Koran incorrectly. My question to you is: How can you possibly make a judgement on someone else's interpretation of the Koran, when you cannot even interpret it yourself?

So again...how do you interpret these passages?

[raj215]

I am not trying to make you or Islam "look bad", as you put it. I do, however, find it rather ironic that you, a muslim who declares it to be a peaceful religion, seems to be unable to answer the simple question of how you interpret these verses, without researching. I am not sure what you mean by a "correct answer". I want to know how YOU interpret them. That is it. It seems from your answer (or lack thereof) that you haven't even bothered to consider them, much less make a rational decision on what it is your prophet may be trying to say. Let;s be clear. There are MANY muslims around the world who interpret these, and many other passages in the Koran to be advocating violence toward the "infidel". If I understand you correctly, it is your argument that these people are not "true" muslims, because they are interpreting the Koran incorrectly. My question to you is: How can you possibly make a judgement on someone else's interpretation of the Koran, when you cannot even interpret it yourself?

So again...how do you interpret these passages?
Once again, you are very cleaver in your responce. I will restate what I said earlier. One of the problems in Islam and other religions is that the lay person is left to use his own understanding to pull a meaning from the scripture. For example, in the Quran, there is a passage which states: (english trans.) do not take the Jews or christians as friends, for they are friends to one another. If this verse is taken on its face value, it would be stating that muslims should not befriend any Jew ore christian. This is an incorrect interpertation. To understand this verse correctly, you must know the history of its revelation.

At the time when the muslims were a very small community. They were being persecuted by the pagans of mecca. The meccans were killing the muslims at every opportunity that presented itself. After the muslims migrated to medina, they were still being persecuted by the meccan idol worshippers. Not only did the meccans persecute the muslims, the meccans allies also joined in. The muslims feared that they would be wiped out if they were attacked by the meccans and there allies. So, some of the muslims went to the Prophet and suggested that they should go to some of the jewish and christian tribes that were also living in medina and ask for there assistence.

This is when this verse was revealed. The muslims were instructed that they should not take the jews and christians a awliya (translated in english as friends) because they are friends to one another.
However, the translation of the arabic world awliya as friends is incorrect due to the historical background of this verse. According to Dr. David Dakake of Temple University, the verse should read do not take the jews and christians as "Protectors" This is the correct interpertation of the verse. Therefore, in order to provde you with the correct interpertation of the verses that you have cited. I must make sure that I do not use my own limited understanding to provide an answer.

This is what the terrorist do. They apply their limited understanding to what is stated in the quran without applying its historical context. I will not do that for you or anyone else. If you want your question answered, you will have to wait until I can provide the correct answer not a answer based upon what I think with my limited understanding.

[Krusader]

Once again, you are very cleaver in your responce. I will restate what I said earlier. One of the problems in Islam and other religions is that the lay person is left to use his own understanding to pull a meaning from the scripture. For example, in the Quran, there is a passage which states: (english trans.) do not take the Jews or christians as friends, for they are friends to one another. If this verse is taken on its face value, it would be stating that muslims should not befriend any Jew ore christian. This is an incorrect interpertation. To understand this verse correctly, you must know the history of its revelation.

At the time when the muslims were a very small community. They were being persecuted by the pagans of mecca. The meccans were killing the muslims at every opportunity that presented itself. After the muslims migrated to medina, they were still being persecuted by the meccan idol worshippers. Not only did the meccans persecute the muslims, the meccans allies also joined in. The muslims feared that they would be wiped out if they were attacked by the meccans and there allies. So, some of the muslims went to the Prophet and suggested that they should go to some of the jewish and christian tribes that were also living in medina and ask for there assistence.

This is when this verse was revealed. The muslims were instructed that they should not take the jews and christians a awliya (translated in english as friends) because they are friends to one another.
However, the translation of the arabic world awliya as friends is incorrect due to the historical background of this verse. According to Dr. David Dakake of Temple University, the verse should read do not take the jews and christians as "Protectors" This is the correct interpertation of the verse. Therefore, in order to provde you with the correct interpertation of the verses that you have cited. I must make sure that I do not use my own limited understanding to provide an answer.

This is what the terrorist do. They apply their limited understanding to what is stated in the quran without applying its historical context. I will not do that for you or anyone else. If you want your question answered, you will have to wait until I can provide the correct answer not a answer based upon what I think with my limited understanding.
Raj: Don't you see Mohammed's involvement in attacks on innocent caravans after his flight to Medina, and the Quran's insistence that Mohammed take a certain percentage of the spoils from these illegal activities, as a precursor to the terrorist acts we see today? After all, Mohammed set the example!

[raj215]

Dear ekklesias:

You have asked an excellent question: "WHY IS THERE NO DENOUNCEMENT OF THESE (acts of terrorism) ACTIONS FROM THOSE IN CHARGE - WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE FOR THE MISCONCEPTIONS THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE PUT IN MANY MINDS?"

I wish we could get an answer to that from those who are Muslim and claim it to be a religion of peace. I would also like to know why many of the Muslims in Iraq have turned on the Christians in Iraq, if Islam is such a "religion of peace" - since the fall of Sadaam?
All you have to do is google Islam denounces terrorism and you will find an unlimited anount of Islamic resources that will answer your post:bravo:

[raj215]

Raj: Don't you see Mohammed's involvement in attacks on innocent caravans after his flight to Medina, and the Quran's insistence that Mohammed take a certain percentage of the spoils from these illegal activities, as a precursor to the terrorist acts we see today? After all, Mohammed set the example!
how is that a peelude to todays acts fo terrorism. The muslims were at war with the idol worshippers. The muslims are not at war today. If we were at war, there would 0ne billion muslims on the battle field

[raj215]

I am not trying to make you or Islam "look bad", as you put it. I do, however, find it rather ironic that you, a muslim who declares it to be a peaceful religion, seems to be unable to answer the simple question of how you interpret these verses, without researching. I am not sure what you mean by a "correct answer". I want to know how YOU interpret them. That is it. It seems from your answer (or lack thereof) that you haven't even bothered to consider them, much less make a rational decision on what it is your prophet may be trying to say. Let;s be clear. There are MANY muslims around the world who interpret these, and many other passages in the Koran to be advocating violence toward the "infidel". If I understand you correctly, it is your argument that these people are not "true" muslims, because they are interpreting the Koran incorrectly. My question to you is: How can you possibly make a judgement on someone else's interpretation of the Koran, when you cannot even interpret it yourself?

So again...how do you interpret these passages?
I can make a judgement on someone interpretation of a quranic verse if it is outside what is commonly accepted as its meaning from the islamic shholars

[jwkenne]

Once again, you are very cleaver in your responce. I will restate what I said earlier. One of the problems in Islam and other religions is that the lay person is left to use his own understanding to pull a meaning from the scripture. For example, in the Quran, there is a passage which states: (english trans.) do not take the Jews or christians as friends, for they are friends to one another. If this verse is taken on its face value, it would be stating that muslims should not befriend any Jew ore christian. This is an incorrect interpertation. To understand this verse correctly, you must know the history of its revelation.

At the time when the muslims were a very small community. They were being persecuted by the pagans of mecca. The meccans were killing the muslims at every opportunity that presented itself. After the muslims migrated to medina, they were still being persecuted by the meccan idol worshippers. Not only did the meccans persecute the muslims, the meccans allies also joined in. The muslims feared that they would be wiped out if they were attacked by the meccans and there allies. So, some of the muslims went to the Prophet and suggested that they should go to some of the jewish and christian tribes that were also living in medina and ask for there assistence.

This is when this verse was revealed. The muslims were instructed that they should not take the jews and christians a awliya (translated in english as friends) because they are friends to one another.
However, the translation of the arabic world awliya as friends is incorrect due to the historical background of this verse. According to Dr. David Dakake of Temple University, the verse should read do not take the jews and christians as "Protectors" This is the correct interpertation of the verse. Therefore, in order to provde you with the correct interpertation of the verses that you have cited. I must make sure that I do not use my own limited understanding to provide an answer.

This is what the terrorist do. They apply their limited understanding to what is stated in the quran without applying its historical context. I will not do that for you or anyone else. If you want your question answered, you will have to wait until I can provide the correct answer not a answer based upon what I think with my limited understanding.

We are in agreement to a point. I believe, and what you say bears this out somewhat, that the Koran condones violence. Islamic fundamentalist terrorists do indeed take what the Koran says at face value, and in that they get their inspiration for terrorist acts. But why shouldn't they? What good is a prophet who speaks only to those who were alive at the same time as him? If this is the case, then why read the Koran at all? Again, I have to ask: Who are you to say that the terrorists are interpreting it wrong, if you have no interpretation yourself? A VERY large portion of the practicing muslims in the world are uneducated, if not illiterate. Did Mohhamed not take this into account before he wrote down such questionable things in a book that needs to be read, according to you, beside a history book, JUST TO GET THE MEANING OF ONE SENTENCE? I am all in favor of reading the Koran, and the Bible, in their historical contexts. That being said, if Mohhamed is explicitly commanding his followers to do something (in this case, to kill), then the historical context is not going to change that. In any case, I will await your thorough historical analysis, and we will see if it sheds any light on it. Simply saying "Islam is a peaceful religion" is not very convincing.
Justin

[jwkenne]

I can make a judgement on someone interpretation of a quranic verse if it is outside what is commonly accepted as its meaning from the islamic shholars

Um, What?

[raj215]

We are in agreement to a point. I believe, and what you say bears this out somewhat, that the Koran condones violence. Islamic fundamentalist terrorists do indeed take what the Koran says at face value, and in that they get their inspiration for terrorist acts. But why shouldn't they? What good is a prophet who speaks only to those who were alive at the same time as him? If this is the case, then why read the Koran at all? Again, I have to ask: Who are you to say that the terrorists are interpreting it wrong, if you have no interpretation yourself? A VERY large portion of the practicing muslims in the world are uneducated, if not illiterate. Did Mohhamed not take this into account before he wrote down such questionable things in a book that needs to be read, according to you, beside a history book, JUST TO GET THE MEANING OF ONE SENTENCE? I am all in favor of reading the Koran, and the Bible, in their historical contexts. That being said, if Mohhamed is explicitly commanding his followers to do something (in this case, to kill), then the historical context is not going to change that. In any case, I will await your thorough historical analysis, and we will see if it sheds any light on it. Simply saying "Islam is a peaceful religion" is not very convincing.
Justin
Once again, you have provided a very cute answer. However, I could take the nornal route and start attacking christians and the acts that they commit, but I am bigger than that. Is there something in the bible that states an eye fo an eye

[raj215]

Once again, you have provided a very cute answer. However, I could take the nornal route and start attacking christians and the acts that they commit, but I am bigger than that. Is there something in the bible that states an eye fo an eye
in addition, muslims were giving permission to defend themselves

[jwkenne]

Once again, you have provided a very cute answer. However, I could take the nornal route and start attacking christians and the acts that they commit, but I am bigger than that. Is there something in the bible that states an eye fo an eye

I must have missed where you actually responded to the passages I brought up. You give me an instance where Jesus told anyone to kill or harm someone else, and I will be glad to respond. You have had two days and counting to make some sense of the mutterings of your prophet Mohhamed. As of yet, you have not even cared to try.

[Augustine2004]

On the basis of this thread especially raj's posts, it does seem safe to assert that the Islamic world is two parts: one peaceful, the other violent. One or the other is the true Islam. However, whichever, Islamic terrorism is a real and serious problem and likely to remain so in the long run. (Of course a person may be peaceful at times and violent at others; or one may not be sure which is the true Islam, but shall we not bother with such niceties now?)

Raj seems to be trying to promote the peaceful interpretation of the Koran as the true one, and I wish him well.

[jwkenne]

On the basis of this thread especially raj's posts, it does seem safe to assert that the Islamic world is two parts: one peaceful, the other violent. One or the other is the true Islam. However, whichever, Islamic terrorism is a real and serious problem and likely to remain so in the long run. (Of course a person may be peaceful at times and violent at others; or one may not be sure which is the true Islam, but shall we not bother with such niceties now?)

Raj seems to be trying to promote the peaceful interpretation of the Koran as the true one, and I wish him well.

I agree. But if those who hold to the peaceful version of Islam only hold to it out of ignorance of the Koran, then we should be very worried. It is not something to be taken lightly. When faced with passages from the Koran which clearly advocate violence and even the murder of non-muslims, peaceful muslims should not be given a free pass. This sort of hush hush attitude is half of the problem, in my opinion.

[Krusader]

how is that a peelude to todays acts fo terrorism. The muslims were at war with the idol worshippers. The muslims are not at war today. If we were at war, there would 0ne billion muslims on the battle field
Raj: For Christians, attacks on innocent caravans and distributing the goods derived by theft and murder would be a sin. However, the Quran ascribes to Allah a sura allowing Mohammed to take a percentage of ill-gotten goods.

These were caravans, for the most part, travelling from Syria to Mecca. In other words, Syrian caravans. Was Mohammed at war with Syria as well as Mecca? Should he have allowed his followers to conduct these raids, taking innocent Syrian lives?

The fact is, that while in Medina Mohammed supported himself and his followers by banditry. For a Christian, this appears to be very sinful. Christians are taught to rely on God for their sustenance (take no thought for the morrow, neither what you shall eat or what you shall wear, said Jesus, because God, Himself will provide you with these things).

Apparently, for Muslims, this type of activity is seen as justifiable.

In the Hadith, also, you have a tradition which states that in the last days a Jew will be hiding behind a tree or a rock, and the tree or rock will call out to the Muslims, "Oh, Muslim, come here and kill this Jew."

I have read through the Quran twice, have read the biography of Mohammed, and also commentaries on the Quran. As a Christian, I have to admit, that the book is void of what Christian would call love. Allah simply demands allegiance and worship, and provides very stringent instructions on how Muslims are to carry out their lives in devotion to Allah.

Christians, on the other hand, are not forced to love God. Our God came to earth, Himself, and demonstrated His love to us by dying for our sins - and we have an assurance of our salvation.

A Muslim, as you know, has no such assurance - and sadly, according to the hadith, neither did Mohammed.

[raj215]

Once again, you are very cleaver in your responce. I will restate what I said earlier. One of the problems in Islam and other religions is that the lay person is left to use his own understanding to pull a meaning from the scripture. For example, in the Quran, there is a passage which states: (english trans.) do not take the Jews or christians as friends, for they are friends to one another. If this verse is taken on its face value, it would be stating that muslims should not befriend any Jew ore christian. This is an incorrect interpertation. To understand this verse correctly, you must know the history of its revelation.

At the time when the muslims were a very small community. They were being persecuted by the pagans of mecca. The meccans were killing the muslims at every opportunity that presented itself. After the muslims migrated to medina, they were still being persecuted by the meccan idol worshippers. Not only did the meccans persecute the muslims, the meccans allies also joined in. The muslims feared that they would be wiped out if they were attacked by the meccans and there allies. So, some of the muslims went to the Prophet and suggested that they should go to some of the jewish and christian tribes that were also living in medina and ask for there assistence.

This is when this verse was revealed. The muslims were instructed that they should not take the jews and christians a awliya (translated in english as friends) because they are friends to one another.
However, the translation of the arabic world awliya as friends is incorrect due to the historical background of this verse. According to Dr. David Dakake of Temple University, the verse should read do not take the jews and christians as "Protectors" This is the correct interpertation of the verse. Therefore, in order to provde you with the correct interpertation of the verses that you have cited. I must make sure that I do not use my own limited understanding to provide an answer.

This is what the terrorist do. They apply their limited understanding to what is stated in the quran without applying its historical context. I will not do that for you or anyone else. If you want your question answered, you will have to wait until I can provide the correct answer not a answer based upon what I think with my limited understanding.
If you want to know my individual understanding of any ayet of the Quran, here it is: I understand every ayet to mean that there is No God but Allah and Prophet Muhammad is his last and final messenger. that you I must not give god any partners or associates, that I must believe in all gods books, that I must believe in all his prophets, that I must believes that there is a life after death and each man will be judged by the deeds that he committed on this earth, and I beleave in gods divine decree. I understand from all the ayets of the Quran that I must enjoined what is right and forbid what is wrong, that I must be fair in all my dealings, that I must always be humbel and submisive, that I must prepare for the next life by doing good in this life. Do not judge another man and his beliefs because God is the best of Judges. And on the day of reserrection all things will be made clear and only god will decided who will be admitted into the gardens or casts into hell. To help the poor and needy and love all that has been created by god and do not trangress the limits set by god. This is the meaning that I get from ALL the ayets of the Quran.

[Krusader]

If you want to know my individual understanding of any ayet of the Quran, here it is: I understand every ayet to mean that there is No God but Allah and Prophet Muhammad is his last and final messenger. that you I must not give god any partners or associates, that I must believe in all gods books, that I must believe in all his prophets, that I must believes that there is a life after death and each man will be judged by the deeds that he committed on this earth, and I beleave in gods divine decree. I understand from all the ayets of the Quran that I must enjoined what is right and forbid what is wrong, that I must be fair in all my dealings, that I must always be humbel and submisive, that I must prepare for the next life by doing good in this life. Do not judge another man and his beliefs because God is the best of Judges. And on the day of reserrection all things will be made clear and only god will decided who will be admitted into the gardens or casts into hell. To help the poor and needy and love all that has been created by god and do not trangress the limits set by god. This is the meaning that I get from ALL the ayets of the Quran.
Raj: Those are noble words. However, do you believe that the Jewish state of Israel has a right to survive? What do you personally believe about the Jews? Do you agree with the tradition found in the hadith insisting that Muslims will kill Jews in the last days hiding behind trees and rocks (calling out to Muslims?). You say you believe in God's books - does that include the Bible? If so, do you believe that the Christian Bible is so corrupted that it cannot be believed. Do you believe that the Injil has been corrupted? Do you believe that Christians teach that the Father, Mary and Jesus are the Trinity (as the Quran falsely teaches)? Do you believe that Christians living in an Islamic country should have the right to build new churches for worship - or do you believe that they should pay the poll tax with humiliation and lodge Muslims in their churches as long as Muslims wish to stay there?

In other words, do you agree with the above Islamic precepts, or do you disagree with them?

[raj215]

[QUOTE=Augustine2004]On the basis of this thread especially raj's posts, it does seem safe to assert that the Islamic world is two parts: one peaceful, the other violent. One or the other is the true Islam. However, whichever, Islamic terrorism is a real and serious problem and likely to remain so in the long run. (Of course a person may be peaceful at times and violent at others; or one may not be sure which is the true Islam, but shall we not bother with such niceties now?)

Dear A2004, I love you for your insight, but it is safe to say that there maybe two Islams. One violent and the other peaceful. You as a christian only see the violence reported in the media, but no one reports on the love and peacefulness of the majority of the muslims around the world. I sencerely wish that I had the knowledge to answer all the queations that christians have about islam, but I dont. All I can say is that I love God and I shall continue to do what I understand to be correct according to my understanding of the message of muhammad. And this understanding in no way includes the violence that has be committed by some who claim to be muslims.

[bhukkadakota]

Um, do you mean that God himself told you this? What else did he tell you? Did he mention anything about this weekend's lottery numbers?

no. God just gave me that specific message. People can choose to believe it or not but i know what i saw and heard from him.

[Krusader]

[QUOTE=Augustine2004]On the basis of this thread especially raj's posts, it does seem safe to assert that the Islamic world is two parts: one peaceful, the other violent. One or the other is the true Islam. However, whichever, Islamic terrorism is a real and serious problem and likely to remain so in the long run. (Of course a person may be peaceful at times and violent at others; or one may not be sure which is the true Islam, but shall we not bother with such niceties now?)

Dear A2004, I love you for your insight, but it is safe to say that there maybe two Islams. One violent and the other peaceful. You as a christian only see the violence reported in the media, but no one reports on the love and peacefulness of the majority of the muslims around the world. I sencerely wish that I had the knowledge to answer all the queations that christians have about islam, but I dont. All I can say is that I love God and I shall continue to do what I understand to be correct according to my understanding of the message of muhammad. And this understanding in no way includes the violence that has be committed by some who claim to be muslims.
Muslims love to portray their religion as one of peace and justice, especially when they are living outside of a Muslim country. But, when they take control of a country, in accord with Quranic policy, Christian are given three options:

1. Become a Muslim
2. Pay a poll tax in humiliation to the Muslim state
3. Die

Christians are not allowed to build new churches in a Muslim state, or to repair old ones, according to Muslim commentators.

A Muslim who wishes to convert to Christianity is subject to a death sentence.

Islam is deceptive - but above all, it is not a religion of peace or justice!

[raj215]

Raj: Those are noble words. However, do you believe that the Jewish state of Israel has a right to survive? What do you personally believe about the Jews? Do you agree with the tradition found in the hadith insisting that Muslims will kill Jews in the last days hiding behind trees and rocks (calling out to Muslims?). You say you believe in God's books - does that include the Bible? If so, do you believe that the Christian Bible is so corrupted that it cannot be believed. Do you believe that the Injil has been corrupted? Do you believe that Christians teach that the Father, Mary and Jesus are the Trinity (as the Quran falsely teaches)? Do you believe that Christians living in an Islamic country should have the right to build new churches for worship - or do you believe that they should pay the poll tax with humiliation and lodge Muslims in their churches as long as Muslims wish to stay there?

In other words, do you agree with the above Islamic precepts, or do you disagree with them?
To tell you the truth, I dont care where the jews live,
I bbelieve that the bible has been tampered with trrough transliterations errors, interpolation, and translation errors

[jwkenne]

If you want to know my individual understanding of any ayet of the Quran, here it is: I understand every ayet to mean that there is No God but Allah and Prophet Muhammad is his last and final messenger. that you I must not give god any partners or associates, that I must believe in all gods books, that I must believe in all his prophets, that I must believes that there is a life after death and each man will be judged by the deeds that he committed on this earth, and I beleave in gods divine decree. I understand from all the ayets of the Quran that I must enjoined what is right and forbid what is wrong, that I must be fair in all my dealings, that I must always be humbel and submisive, that I must prepare for the next life by doing good in this life. Do not judge another man and his beliefs because God is the best of Judges. And on the day of reserrection all things will be made clear and only god will decided who will be admitted into the gardens or casts into hell. To help the poor and needy and love all that has been created by god and do not trangress the limits set by god. This is the meaning that I get from ALL the ayets of the Quran.

At the risk of stating the obvious, this has nothing at all to do with the verses that I quoted. If you cannot defend, nor even simply interpret these verses for me, then just say it. As I have said from the beginning, I really do want to believe that Islam is a noble and peaceful faith, but the Koran does not seem to bear this out. Do you not see a problem with the passages that I mention?????

[raj215]

Muslims love to portray their religion as one of peace and justice, especially when they are living outside of a Muslim country. But, when they take control of a country, in accord with Quranic policy, Christian are given three options:

1. Become a Muslim
2. Pay a poll tax in humiliation to the Muslim state
3. Die

Christians are not allowed to build new churches in a Muslim state, or to repair old ones, according to Muslim commentators.

A Muslim who wishes to convert to Christianity is subject to a death sentence.

Islam is deceptive - but above all, it is not a religion of peace or justice!
If that is what you want to believe, that is on you. I just sincerely hope that on the day of judgement that through the mercy of God, that I am speared the torment OF HELL. I will be able to state without fear and in a loud and clear voice that I never attribed a partner, assistant or shareholder who shared in the rulership of Gods creation. I worshipped no human, living or dead, and I have not worshipped any idols
like the people of moses, i committed no perversion like the people of sidom and I believed in the message of all your prophets and I did the good deeds. And when my book is read to me and my hands, feet, eyes ears and the rest of my limbs bear witness to my actions in this world ONLY THE JUDGEMENT OF GOD WILL COUNT. What you think about me or Islam really does not matter. So, I suggest that you not pray for me, but pray that god accepts all your good and through his mercy you will also be saved from the fire.

If you think that a person can keep committing sinful acts and still not punished because he believes jesus died for the sins of the world- I truely feel sorry for you

[raj215]

It has plenty to do with the verses you cited, I had planned on giving you a scholarly interpertation of these verses but you insisted that I explain or interpret these verses the way I personally understand them,, and this is what I have done in my previous post. Now it appears that you cannot not accept that. In addition, If you are so set in judging the many by the actions of the few, then judge the many by my actions and posts

[jwkenne]

It has plenty to do with the verses you cited, I had planned on giving you a scholarly interpertation of these verses but you insisted that I explain or interpret these verses the way I personally understand them,, and this is what I have done in my previous post. Now it appears that you cannot not accept that. In addition, If you are so set in judging the many by the actions of the few, then judge the many by my actions and posts

I don't judge the heart of many by the actions of the few. Go back and read my posts. Not once did I say that Islamic terrorists show Islam to be false or violent or anything else. Your book shows it to be that. Do you not judge Islam by the Koran? Have you ever even bothered to read it? You made a condescending statement at the start of this thread. You said "When you are ready to talk about Islam and its teachings, then let me know." Well, I am ready, but as soon as someone mentions the Koran, you run and hide. This type of converstaion goes nowhere. I wish you all the best, Raj, but if you cannot offer up any evidence for the things that you say on this board, then your time may be better served not saying anything at all. And if you cannot bear to even acknowledge the words of your "prophet", which you have yet to so much as comment on, then that does not speak very well of your "prophet", or your beliefs. I would be embarrassed.

[Krusader]

If that is what you want to believe, that is on you. I just sincerely hope that on the day of judgement that through the mercy of God, that I am speared the torment OF HELL. I will be able to state without fear and in a loud and clear voice that I never attribed a partner, assistant or shareholder who shared in the rulership of Gods creation. I worshipped no human, living or dead, and I have not worshipped any idols
like the people of moses, i committed no perversion like the people of sidom and I believed in the message of all your prophets and I did the good deeds. And when my book is read to me and my hands, feet, eyes ears and the rest of my limbs bear witness to my actions in this world ONLY THE JUDGEMENT OF GOD WILL COUNT. What you think about me or Islam really does not matter. So, I suggest that you not pray for me, but pray that god accepts all your good and through his mercy you will also be saved from the fire.

If you think that a person can keep committing sinful acts and still not punished because he believes jesus died for the sins of the world- I truely feel sorry for you
You totally misrepresent Christian belief. Christians believe that they are regenerated by the Blood of Christ, changed into New Creatures, and, though they may sin on occassion, it is not their "lifestyle."

On the other hand, I have not misrepresented Muslim beliefs. If I have, demonstrate to me by official references, that I have done so. Otherwise, familiarize yourself with the Quran and Hadith.

Also, if you feel the Bible has been corrupted, provide the evidence. The Dead Sea Scrolls testify to the fact that the Old Testament documents we have are accurate. The ancient New Testament manuscripts show no evidence of tampering. Have you uncovered some new information?

[ekklesias]

raj215 I believed in the message of all your prophets and I did the good deeds


John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the truth the way and the life. No one comes to the Father except throught me."
Do we get to pick and choose what the prophets (although I do not consider Jesus a phropet) said that we believe, and if you respect the teachings of Christ what do you do with his proclimations of who He is? Was He right some times and a lier at other times?

Crusader
Christians believe that they are regenerated by the Blood of Christ, changed into New Creatures, and, though they may sin on occassion, it is not their "lifestyle."

Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

Crusader, Amen brother!

[raj215]

raj215 I believed in the message of all your prophets and I did the good deeds


John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the truth the way and the life. No one comes to the Father except throught me."
Do we get to pick and choose what the prophets (although I do not consider Jesus a phropet) said that we believe, and if you respect the teachings of Christ what do you do with his proclimations of who He is? Was He right some times and a lier at other times?

Crusader
Christians believe that they are regenerated by the Blood of Christ, changed into New Creatures, and, though they may sin on occassion, it is not their "lifestyle."

Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

Crusader, Amen brother!
Dear Brothers, These last few days have been very rewarding and informative, I have gather more than enought information to complete my research paper on Islam and Terrorism. All of you have been very helpful with your replies. The only thing that bothers me is your uwillingness to accept the fact that there is some good in Islam. This can be proven by the millions of good muslims who do not subscribe to what you consider as the violent side of Islam.

There is violence in all religions. The Prophets taught one thing, but the people did something contrary. I will not waste your time by giving you examples of all the violence that has been committed in the name of christianity, or Islam and the other major religions of the world. However, I will say that I wish all of you the best and I sincerely hope that you remain steadfast in whatever or whoever you believe in. Whatever works for you, it is fine with me. The thought never entered my mind to try to turn you or anyone else away from what they believe.


Once again, may all of you find happiness in your faith. I have found happiness in mine. If any of you would like to continue with this thread, that is fine.
I still maintain my original position, you cant judge one billion people based upon the actions of a few hundered.

[raj215]

raj215 I believed in the message of all your prophets and I did the good deeds


John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the truth the way and the life. No one comes to the Father except throught me."
Do we get to pick and choose what the prophets (although I do not consider Jesus a phropet) said that we believe, and if you respect the teachings of Christ what do you do with his proclimations of who He is? Was He right some times and a lier at other times?

Crusader
Christians believe that they are regenerated by the Blood of Christ, changed into New Creatures, and, though they may sin on occassion, it is not their "lifestyle."

Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

Crusader, Amen brother!
Then I suggest that you keep doing what you have been doing

[raj215]

You totally misrepresent Christian belief. Christians believe that they are regenerated by the Blood of Christ, changed into New Creatures, and, though they may sin on occassion, it is not their "lifestyle."

On the other hand, I have not misrepresented Muslim beliefs. If I have, demonstrate to me by official references, that I have done so. Otherwise, familiarize yourself with the Quran and Hadith.

Also, if you feel the Bible has been corrupted, provide the evidence. The Dead Sea Scrolls testify to the fact that the Old Testament documents we have are accurate. The ancient New Testament manuscripts show no evidence of tampering. Have you uncovered some new information?
I also suggest to you that you should talk to a scholar in your religion snd ask him about interpolation in the scripture. In addition, ask him about the other books that are not included in the bible and on who's authority were they rejected. Ask him also what is the relationship between Constantine and the trinity.
Also ask him about the history of the neciean creed and why the church was divided on the issue of the belief in One God. I dont try to attack the bible, all I want you to do is accept the fact that you cannot judge the whole by the actions of the few. I am quite sure that one billion people around the world cannot all be wrong

[raj215]

I don't judge the heart of many by the actions of the few. Go back and read my posts. Not once did I say that Islamic terrorists show Islam to be false or violent or anything else. Your book shows it to be that. Do you not judge Islam by the Koran? Have you ever even bothered to read it? You made a condescending statement at the start of this thread. You said "When you are ready to talk about Islam and its teachings, then let me know." Well, I am ready, but as soon as someone mentions the Koran, you run and hide. This type of converstaion goes nowhere. I wish you all the best, Raj, but if you cannot offer up any evidence for the things that you say on this board, then your time may be better served not saying anything at all. And if you cannot bear to even acknowledge the words of your "prophet", which you have yet to so much as comment on, then that does not speak very well of your "prophet", or your beliefs. I would be embarrassed.
I don't run and hide, I just cant figure out why all of you are so set in trying to discredit islam. In addition, if you have read my posts, you will find that I have answered the questions about the meaning of the cited verses. I was asked for my personal interpertation of these verses and that is what I provided.

[raj215]

see my post #42 for answer on how I interpert these verses

[jwkenne]

I don't run and hide, I just cant figure out why all of you are so set in trying to discredit islam. In addition, if you have read my posts, you will find that I have answered the questions about the meaning of the cited verses. I was asked for my personal interpertation of these verses and that is what I provided.

You have got to be kidding. Just so I am clear, your interpretation of...

[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper

is... (from post #42)



...there is No God but Allah and Prophet Muhammad is his last and final messenger. that you I must not give god any partners or associates, that I must believe in all gods books, that I must believe in all his prophets, that I must believes that there is a life after death and each man will be judged by the deeds that he committed on this earth, and I beleave in gods divine decree. I understand from all the ayets of the Quran that I must enjoined what is right and forbid what is wrong, that I must be fair in all my dealings, that I must always be humbel and submisive, that I must prepare for the next life by doing good in this life. Do not judge another man and his beliefs because God is the best of Judges. And on the day of reserrection all things will be made clear and only god will decided who will be admitted into the gardens or casts into hell. To help the poor and needy and love all that has been created by god and do not trangress the limits set by god





Well, that clears it up then, doesn't it?

[Krusader]

I also suggest to you that you should talk to a scholar in your religion snd ask him about interpolation in the scripture. In addition, ask him about the other books that are not included in the bible and on who's authority were they rejected. Ask him also what is the relationship between Constantine and the trinity.
Also ask him about the history of the neciean creed and why the church was divided on the issue of the belief in One God. I dont try to attack the bible, all I want you to do is accept the fact that you cannot judge the whole by the actions of the few. I am quite sure that one billion people around the world cannot all be wrong
Raj, you really need to bone up on your history. You believe your Muslim scholars, but, apparently, scientific evidence is of no value to you.

The Pseudopigraphic and Apocarapha were examined by the church and rejected as spurious or non-inspired. However, Mohammed gleaned much of his information about Christianity from these, especially Gnostic documents, and thus we have the false view of Christian doctrine presented in the Quran.

You might especially note the silly story about Jesus, as a child, turning clay birds into live birds. This appears in the Quran and is directly taken from the Gnostic "gospel" of Thomas, which circulated in Arabia, but was rejected by Christians as authentic. Mohammed, your "prophet" failed to discern this.

Likewise, the Quran portrays the Trinity as consisting of the Father, Son and Virgin Mary. Of course, no Christian church has ever entertained this thought, and Mohammed's perception of Christianity was twisted by his apparent lack of knowledge regarding Christian doctrine.

Mohammed, as all men, was subject to error and often mistaken. He was a sinner, like us all, and even admitted that he was not entirely sure of his own eternal destiny.

Jesus, on the other hand, was sinless. Even your Quran states as much. Why follow a sinner when you can follow "Him who knew no sin?"

[Jude3b]

Well muslims do believe that the prophet muhammad was sent down because people had warped jesus's teachings and started believing jesus was god himself instead of a prophet.

How do you know this might not be true? Maybe the teachings of jesus was warped by matthew mark john and luke. Either way god does not discriminate against people because of what they believe in. I know jesus says that he is the only way to god but this is not true. I have it on authority from God himself that the only criteria is truly being a good person as he said to me 'all religions are right, in that if believing in that religion makes you a better person then its right'. Whether it be christianity, islam, buddhism, zoroastrianism etc. Dont be fooled into thinking any religion is superior than another, all this creates is division amongst humanity.

Well you just called God a liar - and you will have a mighty hot forever!

I pray you will repent and read the New Testament for yourself and find out the truth - before its to late.

[ekklesias]

There is violence in all religions. The Prophets taught one thing, but the people did something contrary.


I still maintain my original position, you cant judge one billion people based upon the actions of a few hundered.

While I agree holeheartedly that you can not judge a religion based on the actions of some of its followers (I have had this debate with my ex-satanist uncle about the crudades many times) and their have been christians that have done horrible things in the name of christianity but the teachings of Jesus whom we are to follow as christians DO NOT condone this type of behavior--His example showed us to turn the other cheek, not speak in our defense, to take abuse for His names sake. Muhammad on the other hand said if they will not convert to kill them and the example of his life was one of forced takeovers of other people's and he was a warlord. The part that scares me is that yes millions of muslims live peacable lives but they are not following the teachings of their own prophet it is those that we call extreme that are doing what Muhammad said to do. How am I to balance his life example with the parts of Islam that teach peace. So I will admit that their are good muslims, I will admit that there are good teachings to be found in muslim that created those good muslims but I still wonder how do you balance these totally different teachings from the same prophet, once again I ask do we get to pick and choose?

[Krusader]

While I agree holeheartedly that you can not judge a religion based on the actions of some of its followers (I have had this debate with my ex-satanist uncle about the crudades many times) and their have been christians that have done horrible things in the name of christianity but the teachings of Jesus whom we are to follow as christians DO NOT condone this type of behavior--His example showed us to turn the other cheek, not speak in our defense, to take abuse for His names sake. Muhammad on the other hand said if they will not convert to kill them and the example of his life was one of forced takeovers of other people's and he was a warlord. The part that scares me is that yes millions of muslims live peacable lives but they are not following the teachings of their own prophet it is those that we call extreme that are doing what Muhammad said to do. How am I to balance his life example with the parts of Islam that teach peace. So I will admit that their are good muslims, I will admit that there are good teachings to be found in muslim that created those good muslims but I still wonder how do you balance these totally different teachings from the same prophet, once again I ask do we get to pick and choose?
This is so true. The one's the media call "fundamentalist Muslims," are not being extreme at all when it come to what the Quran actually teaches. Also, compared to Mohammed's lifestyle, they are "right on." They are out there attacking those who do not follow "allah" and demanding that the world be subjected to Islam and its laws.

By 2030, Denmark will probably be a Muslim country. No that a whole lot of Danes are attracted to Mohammed's religion, but because lax immigration laws have allowed many Muslims to move to Denmark - and they reproduce at a spectacular rate.

The Netherlands is already experiencing profound problems with its Muslim population. As you probably know, a Dutchman was recently murdered by militant Muslims because of his anti-Islamic stance. The Dutch are not happy, and it remains to be seen what will come of this.

England has more mosques than Anglican churches, I'm told, and the Church of England is in really bad shape....much like its sister church, the Episcopal Church, here in the states. As Muslims continue to reproduce quickly, England will have to come to grips with her Muslims, as will France.

As the Western culture and Muslim culture continue to clash, we will see terrorism increase, especially in Europe. As Christians, we should be aware of what is going on, and what these events portend for us and the Western world.

[ekklesias]

This is so true. The one's the media call "fundamentalist Muslims," are not being extreme at all when it come to what the Quran actually teaches. Also, compared to Mohammed's lifestyle, they are "right on." They are out there attacking those who do not follow "allah" and demanding that the world be subjected to Islam and its laws.

By 2030, Denmark will probably be a Muslim country. No that a whole lot of Danes are attracted to Mohammed's religion, but because lax immigration laws have allowed many Muslims to move to Denmark - and they reproduce at a spectacular rate.

The Netherlands is already experiencing profound problems with its Muslim population. As you probably know, a Dutchman was recently murdered by militant Muslims because of his anti-Islamic stance. The Dutch are not happy, and it remains to be seen what will come of this.

England has more mosques than Anglican churches, I'm told, and the Church of England is in really bad shape....much like its sister church, the Episcopal Church, here in the states. As Muslims continue to reproduce quickly, England will have to come to grips with her Muslims, as will France.

As the Western culture and Muslim culture continue to clash, we will see terrorism increase, especially in Europe. As Christians, we should be aware of what is going on, and what these events portend for us and the Western world.


Once again I find myself saying "Amen Brother"!!!

[Krusader]

That should be, "amen, sister."

[Jude3b]

If that is what you want to believe, that is on you. I just sincerely hope that on the day of judgement that through the mercy of God, that I am speared the torment OF HELL. I will be able to state without fear and in a loud and clear voice that I never attribed a partner, assistant or shareholder who shared in the rulership of Gods creation. I worshipped no human, living or dead, and I have not worshipped any idols
like the people of moses, i committed no perversion like the people of sidom and I believed in the message of all your prophets and I did the good deeds. And when my book is read to me and my hands, feet, eyes ears and the rest of my limbs bear witness to my actions in this world ONLY THE JUDGEMENT OF GOD WILL COUNT. What you think about me or Islam really does not matter. So, I suggest that you not pray for me, but pray that god accepts all your good and through his mercy you will also be saved from the fire.

If you think that a person can keep committing sinful acts and still not punished because he believes jesus died for the sins of the world- I truely feel sorry for you

So Dear raj215, it sounds to me that you don't think that you do sins anymore? Is that correct, are you now perfect, no longer doing any sins anymore?

Also, I am curious about the Muslim definition of "Sin" - what is it exactly, if you care to share that with us.

Thank you,

[raj215]

To tell :sigh: the truth, I dont care where the jews live,
I bbelieve that the bible has been tampered with trrough transliterations errors, interpolation, and translation errors YOU ALSO KNOW THAT THE QURAN DOES NOT SAY THAT MARY IS INCLUDED IN THE TRINITY. yOU ALSO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE BIBLE AND THE INJIL. AS TO MARY THE ONLY THING THAT CAN IS THAT SHE BORE THE PROPHET jESUS THROUGH THE MERCY OF GOD. AS TO HER BEING A PART OF A TRINITY, YOU WOULD HAVE TO REFER THAT TO THE CATHOLICS WHO ARE CHRISTIANS. THEY ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE CONSTRUCTED A IDOL OF HER AND PRAY TO HER HER.

[raj215]

So Dear raj215, it sounds to me that you don't think that you do sins anymore? Is that correct, are you now perfect, no longer doing any sins anymore?

Also, I am curious about the Muslim definition of "Sin" - what is it exactly, if you care to share that with us.

Thank you,My dear Brother, yes I do commit sins. but I try my best to stay away from them. Each and every day I ask God to forgive me for the sins I have committed. And in addition, I try never to commit the same sin, but many times I fall short. According to Islam, there are Major Sins and Minor Sins and I avoid the Major Sins. Shirk is the greatest sin of all. Shirk is assigining God a partner who shares in the rulership of is creation.

[raj215]

My dear Brother, yes I do commit sins. but I try my best to stay away from them. Each and every day I ask God to forgive me for the sins I have committed. And in addition, I try never to commit the same sin, but many times I fall short. According to Islam, there are Major Sins and Minor Sins and I avoid the Major Sins. Shirk is the greatest sin of all. Shirk is assigining God a partner who shares in the rulership of is creation.
In addition to your loaded question, You know what sin is. Sin is when you partake in those things which are forbidden by God.

[Jude3b]

In addition to your loaded question, You know what sin is. Sin is when you partake in those things which are forbidden by God.

Dear raj215,

Thank you for your response to my questions. I do know what the Bible definition of sin is. But, I was not sure what the religion of Islam considers sin to be. I have a little better idea now.

In another post you gave an opinion that the Bible is corrupted. What do you base your opinion on? Do you have some facts you can share that definitely back up your statement?

Another issue: Since you stated that you must earn your salvation by being good enough. That is, I guess doing more good things tha bad things. What kind of good things do you do every day to earn heaven? What sins do you still do?

Since you do not have a Savior in Islam. How do you get forgiven for the bad things? Is it strictly the doing more good things, than bad things that maybe gives you a hope of heaven someday?

Do you feel you live up to Koranic standards? Have your read the whole Quran? Will you ever know for sure before you die, if you'll be accepted in heaven?

Not to change the subject, but have you ever read the whole Bible? Have you ever read the New Testament? It contains the actual words of the Lord Jesus Christ like this one , that you need to know: "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned" (John 5:24). In other words, if you will read the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and believe God the Father who sent Him - you will have eternal life and not be condemned. Wouldn't you like to be sure of going to heaven?

[raj215]

You have got to be kidding. Just so I am clear, your interpretation of...

[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper

is... (from post #42)



...there is No God but Allah and Prophet Muhammad is his last and final messenger. that you I must not give god any partners or associates, that I must believe in all gods books, that I must believe in all his prophets, that I must believes that there is a life after death and each man will be judged by the deeds that he committed on this earth, and I beleave in gods divine decree. I understand from all the ayets of the Quran that I must enjoined what is right and forbid what is wrong, that I must be fair in all my dealings, that I must always be humbel and submisive, that I must prepare for the next life by doing good in this life. Do not judge another man and his beliefs because God is the best of Judges. And on the day of reserrection all things will be made clear and only god will decided who will be admitted into the gardens or casts into hell. To help the poor and needy and love all that has been created by god and do not trangress the limits set by god





Well, that clears it up then, doesn't it?
It was never unclear to me. You are the one who is attacking islam. I have not once tried to discredit you or your religion. I strongly believe that everyone has the right to believe in whatever makes them happy. This is still America. Since you are so set in seeing what you want to see in islam. regurdless of what I say, it will not make you happy,

[raj215]

Dear raj215,

Thank you for your response to my questions. I do know what the Bible definition of sin is. But, I was not sure what the religion of Islam considers sin to be. I have a little better idea now.

In another post you gave an opinion that the Bible is corrupted. What do you base your opinion on? Do you have some facts you can share that definitely back up your statement?

Another issue: Since you stated that you must earn your salvation by being good enough. That is, I guess doing more good things tha bad things. What kind of good things do you do every day to earn heaven? What sins do you still do?

Since you do not have a Savior in Islam. How do you get forgiven for the bad things? Is it strictly the doing more good things, than bad things that maybe gives you a hope of heaven someday?

Do you feel you live up to Koranic standards? Have your read the whole Quran? Will you ever know for sure before you die, if you'll be accepted in heaven?

Not to change the subject, but have you ever read the whole Bible? Have you ever read the New Testament? It contains the actual words of the Lord Jesus Christ like this one , that you need to know: "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned" (John 5:24). In other words, if you will read the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and believe God the Father who sent Him - you will have eternal life and not be condemned. Wouldn't you like to be sure of going to heaven?
No one can be sure they are going yo heaven, only God can make that decision

[Jude3b]

No one can be sure they are going yo heaven, only God can make that decision

Dear raj215:

Thank you for your comment. I can understand why you would make this kind of a statement, being a Muslim that would be normal.

You know some other Muslims have desired to know that they have eternal life. Here is what they did. They were willing to accept the evidence and they had a desire to know the truth. They found after a study of the Word of God - especially the New Testament that Jesus promised that all who believe on Him can know that they now possess eternal life: "This is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent" (John 17:3).

They found out that Jesus also said: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life" (John 6:47).

Jesus also said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life" (John 5:24).

Raj215, if you have longed for a personal relationship with God, a relationship in which you know that God loves you - now is your chace. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." (Acts 16:30 & 31)

[raj215]

Islam has been steadily taking over the world for 1300 years. Most of its faithful are peaceful. It is the peaceful ones who move into new countries by emigration from Islamic countries and by conversion of native populations. When there are enough of them, as in Kosovo, so that they are indistinguishable from the existing population by language and appearance, the first phase of the takeover is in place, for among these are dedicated warriers, Takfirs and others, whose job it is to blend in and wreak their havoc upon the country in preparation for taking it over by terror and by force.

Meanwhile, in those countries now run under Islamic Law, hatred of all people non-Islamic is being taught in schools, and the idea of a holy war to cleanse the planet of infidels is implanted. You can see these angry and hateful mobs of men turned out in the streets, with teen-age boys as well, yelling their hatred and shaking their fists for the cameras... This produces a pool of fighters, cannon fodder really, for the leadership - The leaders, in the confusion of battles, slip away when the battle goes against them, to lead the fight another day, and the soldiers are left to die, as 1500 of them just did in Faluja, martyring themselves for the sake of getting themselves to heaven.

But as long as things are going well, they stay, and turn the country or area they control into a terrorist state, terrorizing the population, and trying to terrorize those outside it with beheadings on TV, and on and on... Those of Islam who love peace have no chance against these terrorist leaders. And it is these that use territory siezed and run by their terror who are directing the expansion of Islam as it takes over another country. And the Koran teaches violence and terror. Enemies are to be humiliated before they die...

Next comes, by way of the mosques, the additional soldiers and specialists who know how to create problems for the existing infidel populations and their governments, and this they do with ever increasing effectiveness. Time is not a factor. A few hundred years is no big deal... It is the struggle that matters, and they have a track record that goes back a long ways, and remember, all the Islamic countries were once Christian, and now, under Islamic Law, being a Christian in an Islamic country is not a safe thing to be. And converting from Islam to Christianity is punishable by death.

Have I said anything untrue so far, Raj?

I mean, don't Muslims believe in Allah? And don't they believe that infidels who do not believe in Allah with them under the Prophet are destined for eternal punishment? And don't they believe that they are doing God's work to kill infidels and take over the world for God?

[ And it is VERY interesting to note that since the fall of Saddam, there have been NO suicide bombings to speak of in Israel... He was the one giving the families of the 'martyrs' $25,000 per suicide mission... Yet all for God, yes?]

So on the issue of Islam and Terrorism, which is the title of your topic, Raj, we find that there is an intimate connection to both within Islam, first to properly subject the populations to God's will, and second to bring the whole world, country by country, under this same will, at the hands of the Islamic violent...

The US and its depravity in freedom, and Christian wrongs are NOT what you wanted to discuss, yes?

[geo] Arsenios
Your remark is not even worth responding to:stupid: :stupid: :stupid: :stupid: :stupid: :stupid:

[raj215]

[QUOTE=Jude3b]Dear raj215:

Thank you for your comment. I can understand why you would make this kind of a statement, being a Muslim that would be normal.

You know some other Muslims have desired to know that they have eternal life. Here is what they did. They were willing to accept the evidence and they had a desire to know the truth. They found after a study of the Word of God - especially the New Testament that Jesus promised that all who believe on Him can know that they now possess eternal life: "This is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent" (John 17:3).

They found out that Jesus also said: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life" (John 6:47).

Jesus also said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life" (John 5:24).

Raj215, if you have longed for a personal relationship with God, a relationship in which you know that God loves you - now is your chace. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." (Acts 16:30 & 31)[/QUOTE

I hate to dissapoint you but I already have a personal relationshisp with god. I also know or a fact that God loves all of his childern

[Jude3b]

[QUOTE=Jude3b]Dear raj215:

Thank you for your comment. I can understand why you would make this kind of a statement, being a Muslim that would be normal.

You know some other Muslims have desired to know that they have eternal life. Here is what they did. They were willing to accept the evidence and they had a desire to know the truth. They found after a study of the Word of God - especially the New Testament that Jesus promised that all who believe on Him can know that they now possess eternal life: "This is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent" (John 17:3).

They found out that Jesus also said: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life" (John 6:47).

Jesus also said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life" (John 5:24).

Raj215, if you have longed for a personal relationship with God, a relationship in which you know that God loves you - now is your chace. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." (Acts 16:30 & 31)[/QUOTE

I hate to dissapoint you but I already have a personal relationshisp with god. I also know or a fact that God loves all of his childern

Dear raj215:

Thank you for your response. Please if you don't mind, can you tell me about your personal relationship with god. How does a Muslim have a personal relationship with god? I am asking this because I would really be interested in knowing. Yes, I know that God loves all his children as you have rightly stated. Can you please tell me who his children are and how did they become his children. Also, how do you know that He loves you? Thank you.

[Jude3b]

Your remark is not even worth responding to:stupid: :stupid: :stupid: :stupid: :stupid: :stupid:

Dear raj215:

I think there are some valid concerns that this brother has shared and asked. Why would you not answer any of them and only make a sarcastic remark?

[raj215]

Dear raj215:

I think there are some valid concerns that this brother has shared and asked. Why would you not answer any of them and only make a sarcastic remark?
Answer forthcomming, must attend to other matters, like going to work. Will return later:eek:

[Krusader]

YOU ALSO KNOW THAT THE QURAN DOES NOT SAY THAT MARY IS INCLUDED IN THE TRINITY. yOU ALSO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE BIBLE AND THE INJIL. AS TO MARY THE ONLY THING THAT CAN IS THAT SHE BORE THE PROPHET jESUS THROUGH THE MERCY OF GOD. AS TO HER BEING A PART OF A TRINITY, YOU WOULD HAVE TO REFER THAT TO THE CATHOLICS WHO ARE CHRISTIANS. THEY ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE CONSTRUCTED A IDOL OF HER AND PRAY TO HER HER.
This is a typical Muslim lie. You know very well that the Quran has Jesus denying that he has asked that He and Mary be included in the Godhead. This was a major error of Mohammed! If he was a real prophet, he would have known that Christians have never taught such nonsence.

[jwkenne]

It was never unclear to me. You are the one who is attacking islam. I have not once tried to discredit you or your religion. I strongly believe that everyone has the right to believe in whatever makes them happy. This is still America. Since you are so set in seeing what you want to see in islam. regurdless of what I say, it will not make you happy,

I am not attacking Islam. I am asking an honest question. I see what is in the Koran. I asked for your interpretation of some of what I read, and you will not give it. Of course you have the right to believe as you want. Let me give you some advice. This is a debate forum. I welcome you to discredit my religion, or to ask a question if you have one. That is the only way that you will learn anything from anyone, and it is the only way that I can hope to learn from a good muslim like yourself. At this point, however, it is clear that you are woefully ignorant of the Koran and the very religion that you claim to be a part of. It is a waste of bandwidth for me to try and have an honest conversation with you, when you know nothing of the teachings of your own religion, as you have made clear. Go and read the Koran. It is short. Then we will talk. But do not, if you have any common sense, tell someone again that the terrorists have an incorrect understanding of the Koran, when you have not backed this statement up with even one verse or quote from your holy book. That is plain dishonesty on your part.

[Krusader]

Answer forthcomming, must attend to other matters, like going to work. Will return later:eek:
Raj, one of the things you really need to attend to, besides work, is to familiarize yourself with Jesus Christ and Christian belief. What you've learned from the imams and Muslim literature does not tell the true story of the Christian faith.

Do you have a New Testament. Well, Raj, if you do it wouldn't be a bad idea to crack it open and begin reading it. I've personally read through the Quran twice, so it's only fair that Muslims read the New Testament. Now, forget about what you've been taught about the reliability of the New Testament documents. The imams are speaking through their turbans - Christian 1st century documents exist, and there is no proof that the New Testament has been tampered with. Christian scholars are always seeking older and older documents - we are not afraid of archeological evidence and scholarship. To date, there are no indications that the books of the New Testament have not been transmitted to us virtually identical to the original autographs.

In the New Testament you will find the story of Jesus - and as you read, you will see a clear difference between Jesus' words and those of Mohammed.

For instance:

Jesus said, "ye have heard that it hath bee said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But I say unto you that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matt. 5:38,39

Mohammed said, "If then anyone transgress the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him." surah 2:194

Of Jesus, Scripture states:

"If any man sin, we have an advoicate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and He is the propitiation (the payment, or sacrifice) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world," 1 Jn. 2:1-2

But in the Quran it states:

"Whether thou ask for their forgiveness or not, if you ask seventy times for their forgiveness, Allah will not forgive them." surah 9:80

Jesus was sinless:

"Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth," 1 Peter 2:22

But Allah commanded Mohammed to repent of his sin:

"Ask forgiveness for THY fault, and for the men and women who believe," surah 47:19

As you read through the New Testament you will discern the divinity of its words. Then, compare it to what you have in the Quran. There is no comparison.

[Snarf]

Raj, one of the things you really need to attend to, besides work, is to familiarize yourself with Jesus Christ and Christian belief. What you've learned from the imams and Muslim literature does not tell the true story of the Christian faith.

Do you have a New Testament. Well, Raj, if you do it wouldn't be a bad idea to crack it open and begin reading it. I've personally read through the Quran twice, so it's only fair that Muslims read the New Testament. Now, forget about what you've been taught about the reliability of the New Testament documents. The imams are speaking through their turbans - Christian 1st century documents exist, and there is no proof that the New Testament has been tampered with. Christian scholars are always seeking older and older documents - we are not afraid of archeological evidence and scholarship. To date, there are no indications that the books of the New Testament have not been transmitted to us virtually identical to the original autographs.

In the New Testament you will find the story of Jesus - and as you read, you will see a clear difference between Jesus' words and those of Mohammed.

For instance:

Jesus said, "ye have heard that it hath bee said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But I say unto you that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matt. 5:38,39

Mohammed said, "If then anyone transgress the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him." surah 2:194

Of Jesus, Scripture states:

"If any man sin, we have an advoicate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and He is the propitiation (the payment, or sacrifice) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world," 1 Jn. 2:1-2

But in the Quran it states:

"Whether thou ask for their forgiveness or not, if you ask seventy times for their forgiveness, Allah will not forgive them." surah 9:80

Jesus was sinless:

"Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth," 1 Peter 2:22

But Allah commanded Mohammed to repent of his sin:

"Ask forgiveness for THY fault, and for the men and women who believe," surah 47:19

As you read through the New Testament you will discern the divinity of its words. Then, compare it to what you have in the Quran. There is no comparison.

Collectively, you guys sound like 6 year olds in a playground bragging about how big their daddies are.

In a point of agreement with Raj, quite frankly no one knows what happens after one dies. Since no one can know the validity of claims of Islam vs. claims of Christianity until after death, why argue about what cannot be argued?

In a point made by Jude earlier, the claim was that the Bible is not corrupt because of the fidelity of the translation. For the sake of argument, and there's evidece for this, let's say that the Bible today is the same as the Bible of 300 AD (before then there was no Bible). OK, now how does this show that the Bible is the word of God? Egyptian heiroglyphs are far older, and moreover are the actual originals, and not translated copies. So, does that mean that accounts of Osiris are really the ultimate truth because they have been more perfectly preserved than the scriptures from which the Bible came?

[CatholicSage]

Jumping in...


Collectively, you guys sound like 6 year olds in a playground bragging about how big their daddies are.

In a point of agreement with Raj, quite frankly no one knows what happens after one dies. Since no one can know the validity of claims of Islam vs. claims of Christianity until after death, why argue about what cannot be argued?


That attitude is contradictory to the whole idea of religious debate. We should argue about it because reason can help us determine the validity of a religion's truth claims. IMO, Islam's claims are weak compared to those of Christianity.



In a point made by Jude earlier, the claim was that the Bible is not corrupt because of the fidelity of the translation. For the sake of argument, and there's evidece for this, let's say that the Bible today is the same as the Bible of 300 AD (before then there was no Bible). OK, now how does this show that the Bible is the word of God?


I don't think that is the point of the argument. The point is that because the Bible is not corrupt, then one of Islam's claims is greatly weakened.

[jwkenne]

Collectively, you guys sound like 6 year olds in a playground bragging about how big their daddies are.

In a point of agreement with Raj, quite frankly no one knows what happens after one dies. Since no one can know the validity of claims of Islam vs. claims of Christianity until after death, why argue about what cannot be argued?

In a point made by Jude earlier, the claim was that the Bible is not corrupt because of the fidelity of the translation. For the sake of argument, and there's evidece for this, let's say that the Bible today is the same as the Bible of 300 AD (before then there was no Bible). OK, now how does this show that the Bible is the word of God? Egyptian heiroglyphs are far older, and moreover are the actual originals, and not translated copies. So, does that mean that accounts of Osiris are really the ultimate truth because they have been more perfectly preserved than the scriptures from which the Bible came?

It does sound a little bit like "my daddy is bigger than your daddy".I mentioned from the beginning that I did not wish for this conversation
to go that route, but it seems that it has. i am a logical person, and would very much like to discuss the merits/problems/questions of Islam, since that is the basis of this thread, and then move on to the merits/problems/questions that raj may have with Christianity. At this point however, Raj has made it very clear that he has neither the knowledge nor the time to answer others' questions concerning Islam. The thread is bound to become a "daddy-fest" with such a premise.

[Jude3b]

Collectively, you guys sound like 6 year olds in a playground bragging about how big their daddies are.

In a point of agreement with Raj, quite frankly no one knows what happens after one dies. Since no one can know the validity of claims of Islam vs. claims of Christianity until after death, why argue about what cannot be argued?

In a point made by Jude earlier, the claim was that the Bible is not corrupt because of the fidelity of the translation. For the sake of argument, and there's evidece for this, let's say that the Bible today is the same as the Bible of 300 AD (before then there was no Bible). OK, now how does this show that the Bible is the word of God? Egyptian heiroglyphs are far older, and moreover are the actual originals, and not translated copies. So, does that mean that accounts of Osiris are really the ultimate truth because they have been more perfectly preserved than the scriptures from which the Bible came?

The fact that the oldest available manuscripts clearly show that the Bible we have today is not corrupted - while not showing that the Bible is absolute truth. It does show that we can depend that it is the same as it was for some 2500 years in the case of the Old Testament and some 1900 years in the case of the New Testament.

Many other proofs demonstrate that it is absolute truth. One is fulfilled propehcy. Another is changed lives. If you ever get saved, you will know just how significant the "changed lives" part is in showing that the Word of God is absolute truth. I pray you will.

[Augustine2004]

Many other proofs demonstrate that it is absolute truth. One is fulfilled propehcy. Another is changed lives. If you ever get saved, you will know just how significant the "changed lives" part is in showing that the Word of God is absolute truth. I pray you will.Sorry, but alleged evidence of 'changed lives' is not why I became a Christian. Anecdotal stuff just doesn't cut it for me.

[jwkenne]

Sorry, but alleged evidence of 'changed lives' is not why I became a Christian. Anecdotal stuff just doesn't cut it for me.

Nor is it why I became one. But it may well be why I have stayed one.

[ekklesias]

That should be, "amen, sister."

So so sorry sister. I just took crusader as male, my bad!

Amen SISTER!!!!!!

[ekklesias]

The fact that the oldest available manuscripts clearly show that the Bible we have today is not corrupted - while not showing that the Bible is absolute truth. It does show that we can depend that it is the same as it was for some 2500 years in the case of the Old Testament and some 1900 years in the case of the New Testament.

Many other proofs demonstrate that it is absolute truth. One is fulfilled propehcy. Another is changed lives. If you ever get saved, you will know just how significant the "changed lives" part is in showing that the Word of God is absolute truth. I pray you will.


Also the Bible was written over a period of 1,400-1,500 years, by around 40 different authors in three different languages on four different continents and yet tells the same story--I would argue that this is humanly impossible. In Isaiah we are given many descriptions of Jesus and His life and this was 700 years before he was born, Psalms 22 gives a vived portrayal of the crucifixtion once again hundreds of years before it happened, also interesting to note at this time in history they hadn't started using crucification as a punishment yet, so how did they do that if it wasn't by God's hand. And this is just the tip of the propehcy iceberg. Check out fullfilled prophecies, I personnally find it extremly interesting.

[Snarf]

The fact that the oldest available manuscripts clearly show that the Bible we have today is not corrupted - while not showing that the Bible is absolute truth. It does show that we can depend that it is the same as it was for some 2500 years in the case of the Old Testament and some 1900 years in the case of the New Testament.

Many other proofs demonstrate that it is absolute truth. One is fulfilled propehcy. Another is changed lives. If you ever get saved, you will know just how significant the "changed lives" part is in showing that the Word of God is absolute truth. I pray you will.

The problem with "fulfilled prophecies" is this: 1) prophecies may be written so vaguely that they could be fulfilled by anything (e.g. statue with feet of cley described by Daniel) 2) later Biblical documents could have been documents could have been written to intentionally "fulfill" prophecies (i.e. great imagination of the author, as in the case of NT verses where it says
"thus fulfilling the prophecy of." 3) Interpretation of prophecies is often done by people who are convinced of the absolute truth of the thing (evangelicals, psychics, etc.) and cannot provide an objective opinion on the fulfillment of prophecy. For example, many interpreted Daniel's statue's feet of iron mixed with clay to be the Roman Empire which collapsed when hit by a rock (allegedly symbolizing Jesus). But if that was the case, then why did the Roman Empire not only NOT collapse, but continue to expand for the next few centuries?

Fora more modern view, I'm still waiting for Hal Lindsay and Jack Van Impe to stop repeating themselves ("the signs are here!!! The signs are here!!!!).

Changed lives: people have had their lives changed by Hinduism, Buddhism, Al-Anon, Overeaters Anonymous, and bad rock music. Which of these represent the ultimate truth, do you think? (hey they're changing lives!)

[Snarf]

Jumping in...



That attitude is contradictory to the whole idea of religious debate. We should argue about it because reason can help us determine the validity of a religion's truth claims. IMO, Islam's claims are weak compared to those of Christianity.



I don't think that is the point of the argument. The point is that because the Bible is not corrupt, then one of Islam's claims is greatly weakened.
Good points both, thanks. However, the "truth" of a religion can never be tested for certain without forensic evidence, because the religions in question rely on the certainty of certain past events. Unless I am wrong, neither God nor Allah have physical form, and the angel that spoke to Muhammed didn't leave fingerprints, nor did Jesus record His resurrection (surely an omnipotent God could've brought along a camcorder to make the info available to later generations).

[CatholicSage]

Good points both, thanks. However, the "truth" of a religion can never be tested for certain without forensic evidence, because the religions in question rely on the certainty of certain past events. Unless I am wrong, neither God nor Allah have physical form, and the angel that spoke to Muhammed didn't leave fingerprints, nor did Jesus record His resurrection (surely an omnipotent God could've brought along a camcorder to make the info available to later generations).

True, which is why the debate will rage for a long time to come. There are still many types of evidence that are possible, though: philosophic, historical, logical, archaeological, and maybe even scientific.

[ekklesias]

The problem with "fulfilled prophecies" is this: 1) prophecies may be written so vaguely that they could be fulfilled by anything (e.g. statue with feet of cley described by Daniel) 2) later Biblical documents could have been documents could have been written to intentionally "fulfill" prophecies (i.e. great imagination of the author, as in the case of NT verses where it says
"thus fulfilling the prophecy of." 3) Interpretation of prophecies is often done by people who are convinced of the absolute truth of the thing (evangelicals, psychics, etc.) and cannot provide an objective opinion on the fulfillment of prophecy. For example, many interpreted Daniel's statue's feet of iron mixed with clay to be the Roman Empire which collapsed when hit by a rock (allegedly symbolizing Jesus). But if that was the case, then why did the Roman Empire not only NOT collapse, but continue to expand for the next few centuries?

Fora more modern view, I'm still waiting for Hal Lindsay and Jack Van Impe to stop repeating themselves ("the signs are here!!! The signs are here!!!!).

Changed lives: people have had their lives changed by Hinduism, Buddhism, Al-Anon, Overeaters Anonymous, and bad rock music. Which of these represent the ultimate truth, do you think? (hey they're changing lives!)


Psalms 22 isn't at all vague and christians don't use phychics to interpret anything. Rome expanding for a few more centuries would only prove the prophetic weight of Daniel's writings--if it had happened within his lifetime then the document could have been written to intentually fullfill the prophecy--that is what prophecy is foretelling future events, not current events.

[raj215]

Raj, one of the things you really need to attend to, besides work, is to familiarize yourself with Jesus Christ and Christian belief. What you've learned from the imams and Muslim literature does not tell the true story of the Christian faith.

Do you have a New Testament. Well, Raj, if you do it wouldn't be a bad idea to crack it open and begin reading it. I've personally read through the Quran twice, so it's only fair that Muslims read the New Testament. Now, forget about what you've been taught about the reliability of the New Testament documents. The imams are speaking through their turbans - Christian 1st century documents exist, and there is no proof that the New Testament has been tampered with. Christian scholars are always seeking older and older documents - we are not afraid of archeological evidence and scholarship. To date, there are no indications that the books of the New Testament have not been transmitted to us virtually identical to the original autographs.

In the New Testament you will find the story of Jesus - and as you read, you will see a clear difference between Jesus' words and those of Mohammed.

For instance:

Jesus said, "ye have heard that it hath bee said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But I say unto you that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matt. 5:38,39

Mohammed said, "If then anyone transgress the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him." surah 2:194

Of Jesus, Scripture states:

"If any man sin, we have an advoicate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and He is the propitiation (the payment, or sacrifice) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world," 1 Jn. 2:1-2

But in the Quran it states:

"Whether thou ask for their forgiveness or not, if you ask seventy times for their forgiveness, Allah will not forgive them." surah 9:80

Jesus was sinless:

"Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth," 1 Peter 2:22

But Allah commanded Mohammed to repent of his sin:

"Ask forgiveness for THY fault, and for the men and women who believe," surah 47:19

As you read through the New Testament you will discern the divinity of its words. Then, compare it to what you have in the Quran. There is no comparison.
I HATE TO DO THIS TO YOU, BUT IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT HOW CORRUPT YOUR BIBLE IS, PLEASE GO TO www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm (http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm)
then you will know the truth.:bravo:

[raj215]

The fact that the oldest available manuscripts clearly show that the Bible we have today is not corrupted - while not showing that the Bible is absolute truth. It does show that we can depend that it is the same as it was for some 2500 years in the case of the Old Testament and some 1900 years in the case of the New Testament.

Many other proofs demonstrate that it is absolute truth. One is fulfilled propehcy. Another is changed lives. If you ever get saved, you will know just how significant the "changed lives" part is in showing that the Word of God is absolute truth. I pray you will.
Dear Jude, I hate to take you off of cloud nine, but if you really want to know how corrupt your bible is I suggest you go to www.answering-christiianity.com/contra.htm (http://www.answering-christiianity.com/contra.htm). The corruption is so intense that there is not enought room on this forum to display it:attn: :attn:

[Jude3b]

Dear Jude, I hate to take you off of cloud nine, but if you really want to know how corrupt your bible is I suggest you go to www.answering-christiianity.com/contra.htm (http://www.answering-christiianity.com/contra.htm). The corruption is so intense that there is not enought room on this forum to display it:attn: :attn:

Dear raj215:

I have already addressed and answered your accusations that the Christian Bible is corrupt. Your religious leaders are deceived also and unable of telling you the truth on this subject! It is well known that at many points the Qur'an does not agree with the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible. Your religious leaders therefore conclude that the Holy Bible must have been corrupted.

Historical evidence outways the false accusations of Muslim religious teachers.

Raj215, you do not feel any need to study evidence in detail - do you? One side of the story is sufficient for you. We shouldn't try to confuse you with the facts, because your mind is already made up. Isn't that right?

To you the only valid picture of Jesus Christ is that which is found in the pages of the Qur'an. Isn't that your opinion?

In other words, since you think the Koran is perfect, and the Bible contradicts it, therefore the Bible is wrong. Historical evidence has no relevance to you or this issue because to you it is impossible for the Koran to be wrong. Isn't that your true position on this subject?

Has it ever occured to you that the Holy Bible is the older revelation and it had been established for many hundreds of years before the Koran came into existence. How can you be so sure that its not the Koran thats wrong?

Are you really willing to risk an eternity - Lost and Undone - without the true God of Heaven?

I've read the Koran. Have you read the New Testament?

Historical facts show that it is the Koran that has been corrupted. Would you like me to point those facts out to you? I will if you want me to. But out of fairness to yourself - why not read the truth for yourself? You will find it, in the New Testament of the Holy Bible.

[raj215]

Dear raj215:

I have already addressed and answered your accusations that the Christian Bible is corrupt. Your religious leaders are deceived also and unable of telling you the truth on this subject! It is well known that at many points the Qur'an does not agree with the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible. Your religious leaders therefore conclude that the Holy Bible must have been corrupted.

Historical evidence outways the false accusations of Muslim religious teachers.

Raj215, you do not feel any need to study evidence in detail - do you? One side of the story is sufficient for you. We shouldn't try to confuse you with the facts, because your mind is already made up. Isn't that right?

To you the only valid picture of Jesus Christ is that which is found in the pages of the Qur'an. Isn't that your opinion?

In other words, since you think the Koran is perfect, and the Bible contradicts it, therefore the Bible is wrong. Historical evidence has no relevance to you or this issue because to you it is impossible for the Koran to be wrong. Isn't that your true position on this subject?

Has it ever occured to you that the Holy Bible is the older revelation and it had been established for many hundreds of years before the Koran came into existence. How can you be so sure that its not the Koran thats wrong?

Are you really willing to risk an eternity - Lost and Undone - without the true God of Heaven?

I've read the Koran. Have you read the New Testament?

Historical facts show that it is the Koran that has been corrupted. Would you like me to point those facts out to you? I will if you want me to. But out of fairness to yourself - why not read the truth for yourself? You will find it, in the New Testament of the Holy Bible.
Jude, why dont you respond to the web site and the charges of bible corruption therein. Are you afraid to see the truth??????

[jwkenne]

Dear Jude, I hate to take you off of cloud nine, but if you really want to know how corrupt your bible is I suggest you go to www.answering-christiianity.com/contra.htm (http://www.answering-christiianity.com/contra.htm). The corruption is so intense that there is not enought room on this forum to display it:attn: :attn:

Perhaps you should learn a little bit about your own religion, before you go speaking of another one. This thread is about Islam, not Christianity. Many, including myself have questioned you and raised valid points and you have not bothered to respond to any of them. You are beginning to sound like a spoiled little child at this point.

[Jude3b]

Jude, why dont you respond to the web site and the charges of bible corruption therein. Are you afraid to see the truth??????

I looked at your website and responded. Didn't you bother to read what I wrote?

Do you plan to answer any of the questions that I have asked of you, in several posts?

[Jude3b]

Perhaps you should learn a little bit about your own religion, before you go speaking of another one. This thread is about Islam, not Christianity. Many, including myself have questioned you and raised valid points and you have not bothered to respond to any of them. You are beginning to sound like a spoiled little child at this point.

Do you have nothing constructive to add? Just want to but in with your 2 cents worth of nothing?

You have a question for me about Biblical Christianity - go ahead and ask me. What question about Christianity have you asked of me?

[Jude3b]

The problem with "fulfilled prophecies" is this: 1) prophecies may be written so vaguely that they could be fulfilled by anything (e.g. statue with feet of cley described by Daniel) 2) later Biblical documents could have been documents could have been written to intentionally "fulfill" prophecies (i.e. great imagination of the author, as in the case of NT verses where it says
"thus fulfilling the prophecy of." 3) Interpretation of prophecies is often done by people who are convinced of the absolute truth of the thing (evangelicals, psychics, etc.) and cannot provide an objective opinion on the fulfillment of prophecy. For example, many interpreted Daniel's statue's feet of iron mixed with clay to be the Roman Empire which collapsed when hit by a rock (allegedly symbolizing Jesus). But if that was the case, then why did the Roman Empire not only NOT collapse, but continue to expand for the next few centuries?

Fora more modern view, I'm still waiting for Hal Lindsay and Jack Van Impe to stop repeating themselves ("the signs are here!!! The signs are here!!!!).

Changed lives: people have had their lives changed by Hinduism, Buddhism, Al-Anon, Overeaters Anonymous, and bad rock music. Which of these represent the ultimate truth, do you think? (hey they're changing lives!)

The Old Testament prophecies, numbering in the hundreds that are in fact fulfilled exactly by my Lord and Savior - Jesus Christ are not vague and you simply demonstrate your ignorance of the Word of God to make such a statement.

Nothing in the history of the World has shown people changed, after being saved, like a person receiving Christ as their Lord and Savior. Drunkards are set free, gamblers stop gambling, wife beaters start loving their spouses, homosexuals are set free from their perversions, adulterers stop their adultery. Hateful people, become loving people. All because they have met the Savior of the World - were born-again (saved) and get their mind renewed on the Word of God. You should try it Snarf - it is a far better way to live and for sure the only way to die.

[CatholicSage]

Do you have nothing constructive to add? Just want to but in with your 2 cents worth of nothing?

You have a question for me about Biblical Christianity - go ahead and ask me. What question about Christianity have you asked of me?

Uh, he was talking to raj in that reply.

[jwkenne]

Do you have nothing constructive to add? Just want to but in with your 2 cents worth of nothing?

You have a question for me about Biblical Christianity - go ahead and ask me. What question about Christianity have you asked of me?

I was actually responding to Raj. I have asked him a few questions about Islam, and he has responded by saying that I am "attacking Islam", and then quoting anti-Christian websites. If I have a question about Biblical Christianity, I will be sure to ask you first...

[Jude3b]

Uh, he was talking to raj in that reply.

Your right, he was, I misread it. I apologize.

[Jude3b]

I was actually responding to Raj. I have asked him a few questions about Islam, and he has responded by saying that I am "attacking Islam", and then quoting anti-Christian websites. If I have a question about Biblical Christianity, I will be sure to ask you first...

Your right, you were, I just went back and reread the post. I apologize.

[Snarf]

The Old Testament prophecies, numbering in the hundreds that are in fact fulfilled exactly by my Lord and Savior - Jesus Christ are not vague and you simply demonstrate your ignorance of the Word of God to make such a statement.

Quote one prophecy that could ONLY refer to Jesus and not to anyone else, please, and how do you verify that someone didn't write a fictitious account of Jesus to make it seem like He fit said prophecy?


Nothing in the history of the World has shown people changed, after being saved, like a person receiving Christ as their Lord and Savior. Drunkards are set free, gamblers stop gambling

Drunkards and gamblers are also cured by psychological counseling, and lots of saved Christians get drunk and gamble.


wife beaters start loving their spouses

Lots of Christian husbands beat their wives, using the verse "Wives submit to your husbands."

homosexuals are set free from their perversions

Then please explain why there are homosexuals who believe in Jesus and remain homosexual


adulterers stop their adultery

like Jimmy Swaggert?

Hateful people, become loving people

Like Reverend Paul Hill assisinating people, and you proclaiming "why should we love Muslims?" and saying that their core beliefs are violent? And your belief that it's OK to kill adulterers? The warmth of the love you have shown towards others' beliefs is comparable to an iceberg.

All because they have met the Savior of the World - were born-again (saved) and get their mind renewed on the Word of God. You should try it Snarf - it is a far better way to live and for sure the only way to die.

You asked me 5 times if I was saved, and I said yes 5 times, but apparently you still don't believe me. By denying my salvation you are committing the sin of judging the fate of someone's soul, which is only for God. Either you make up your own definition of who is a Christian (maybe we could call such people Judeans, since you elevate yourself to being the judge instead of Christ), or you simply can't read.

[Jude3b]

Quote one prophecy that could ONLY refer to Jesus and not to anyone else, please, and how do you verify that someone didn't write a fictitious account of Jesus to make it seem like He fit said prophecy?



Drunkards and gamblers are also cured by psychological counseling, and lots of saved Christians get drunk and gamble.



Lots of Christian husbands beat their wives, using the verse "Wives submit to your husbands."


Then please explain why there are homosexuals who believe in Jesus and remain homosexual



like Jimmy Swaggert?


Like Reverend Paul Hill assisinating people, and you proclaiming "why should we love Muslims?" and saying that their core beliefs are violent? And your belief that it's OK to kill adulterers? The warmth of the love you have shown towards others' beliefs is comparable to an iceberg.


You asked me 5 times if I was saved, and I said yes 5 times, but apparently you still don't believe me. By denying my salvation you are committing the sin of judging the fate of someone's soul, which is only for God. Either you make up your own definition of who is a Christian (maybe we could call such people Judeans, since you elevate yourself to being the judge instead of Christ), or you simply can't read.

First off, you lied again. I never said I would kill adulterers. I pointed out what God did during the Old Testament dispensation. That was the choice of God. This is His planet and His creation. That was His choice. I'm just grateful that he has forgiven me, because I deserve death for my sin as well. But thanks be to God and my Lord and Savior - Jesus Christ, who had mercy on me and spared my life and saved me and set me free.

No, I don't believe you. Jesus said, "By their fruits you will know them" - You snarf deny that someone can know about what happens after death and you support the shedding of innocent life because that is politically correct to you as a demoncrat.

"By their fruits you will know them" - We know you snarf by your words: You are critical of the body of Christ, making statements about "plenty of Christians beating their wives,etc." I personally don't know any true Christians who beat their wives. Is that one of your sins? Do you beat your wife?

You point out the adultery of Jimmy Swaggart. Do you commit adultery, Snarf? Is that one of your sins?

Do you get drunk and gamble snarf - is that why you point fingers at others who do. I personally do not know gambling/drunkard Christians. Are you one of those?

The Word of God states that "no murderer has eternal life." Mr. Politically correct demoncrat - The blood of those innocent babies is on your hands!

It is your own words that declare your position in or out of Christ, not mine.

[Snarf]

First off, you lied again. I never said I would kill adulterers. I pointed out what God did during the Old Testament dispensation. That was the choice of God. This is His planet and His creation. That was His choice..

You seem to have reading problems. My words were
"And your belief that it's OK to kill adulterers?"
which is based on your earlier statement
"The land of Canaan, which had long before been promised by God to Abraham and his seed, had become so defiled by the time of Joshua that God was completely vindicated in ordering the extermination of its incorrigibly wicked inhabitants, lest the people of Israel and eventually the whole world be corrupted by their influence, as in the world before the flood. The people of Canaan were promiscuous, into incest, homosexuality, bestiality, even burning their children in sacrifice to a pagan god (Lev. 18:21) and blaspheming the true God. God wanted his chosen people to "be holy" and the sins that were punishable by death was for the purpose of maintaining the holiness of the people as a nation set apart to God (Lev. 20:23-26)."

You say not that it was God's choice, but you said "VINDICATED", indicating your approval of God's decision to kill adulterers



No, I don't believe you. Jesus said, "By their fruits you will know them" - You snarf deny that someone can know about what happens after death and you support the shedding of innocent life because that is politically correct to you as a demoncrat.

Your disbelief has no bearing on my salvation, since it's up to God, not you.


"By their fruits you will know them" - We know you snarf by your words: You are critical of the body of Christ, making statements about "plenty of Christians beating their wives,etc." I personally don't know any true Christians who beat their wives. Is that one of your sins? Do you beat your wife?

It's funny reading Christians talk about how sinful and miserable they are, and how they deserve death for their sins, but then let someone else other than them point them out and they can't take the criticism. What's the matter, can't the sinful saved bear to hear how sinful they are? Or do the self-proclaimed 'only saved' cry about how sinful they are just because it sounds good? Come clean, are Christians truly sinful, or are you saying that to pretend humility while all the while thinking how superior you are, superior enough to decide that others are saved or not, and thus making yourselves God?



The Word of God states that "no murderer has eternal life." Mr. Politically correct demoncrat - The blood of those innocent babies is on your hands!

It is your own words that declare your position in or out of Christ, not mine.


Your words "The Word of God states that "no murderer has eternal life." Mr. Politically correct demoncrat - The blood of those innocent babies is on your hands!"

suggest an imbalanced mind, have you considered seeking counseling for why you believe that merely being pro-choice makes one responsible for millions of dead babies?

[Bill the Cat]

I HATE TO DO THIS TO YOU, BUT IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT HOW CORRUPT YOUR BIBLE IS, PLEASE GO TO www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm (http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm)
then you will know the truth.:bravo:


:I don't want to get into this one at all, but "answering Christianity??" :lmbo:

Boy you need to read some of Wildcat's stuff on tektonics

http://www.tektonics.org/guest/osama01.html
http://www.tektonics.org/guest/osama04.html
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/hoaxes.htm
http://www.tektonics.org/guest/osama02.html

Answering Christianity... please!!

:allsorts:

[raj215]

Dear raj215:

I have already addressed and answered your accusations that the Christian Bible is corrupt. Your religious leaders are deceived also and unable of telling you the truth on this subject! It is well known that at many points the Qur'an does not agree with the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible. Your religious leaders therefore conclude that the Holy Bible must have been corrupted.

Historical evidence outways the false accusations of Muslim religious teachers.

Raj215, you do not feel any need to study evidence in detail - do you? One side of the story is sufficient for you. We shouldn't try to confuse you with the facts, because your mind is already made up. Isn't that right?

To you the only valid picture of Jesus Christ is that which is found in the pages of the Qur'an. Isn't that your opinion?

In other words, since you think the Koran is perfect, and the Bible contradicts it, therefore the Bible is wrong. Historical evidence has no relevance to you or this issue because to you it is impossible for the Koran to be wrong. Isn't that your true position on this subject?

Has it ever occured to you that the Holy Bible is the older revelation and it had been established for many hundreds of years before the Koran came into existence. How can you be so sure that its not the Koran thats wrong?

Are you really willing to risk an eternity - Lost and Undone - without the true God of Heaven?

I've read the Koran. Have you read the New Testament?

Historical facts show that it is the Koran that has been corrupted. Would you like me to point those facts out to you? I will if you want me to. But out of fairness to yourself - why not read the truth for yourself? You will find it, in the New Testament of the Holy Bible.
Dear Jude, You have not addressed my clain as to the corruption in the bible. If you consider the claim of corruption, you will find that this claim is not only made by muslims, but also by scholars of religion. In addition, it is you that have attacted islam. I never attacked any claim that is in the bible. My position on the bible is that it is a book that was divinely inspired, however, due to translation errors and interpolation, you cannot know for sure what is divinely inspired and what is from man. All you have to do is check out your history of the bible and its revealtions.

Yes, I have read the Quran and both the new testament and the old. Why do you seperate the two, if they are both in your bible.

In addition, you have not given your scholarly responce to the website I have provided or must I post the information on this thread????

You also keep talkng about historical evidence, what i have mentioned is historical evidence.

Any facts that you have concerning the validity of islam that you would like to share is find with me.
But, when you share these facts, please keep in mind that these facts are one sided and based upon one sided information provided by one sided thinkers. Therefore, they can be refuted.

[Jude3b]

:I don't want to get into this one at all, but "answering Christianity??" :lmbo:

Boy you need to read some of Wildcat's stuff on tektonics

http://www.tektonics.org/guest/osama01.html
http://www.tektonics.org/guest/osama04.html
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/hoaxes.htm
http://www.tektonics.org/guest/osama02.html

Answering Christianity... please!!

:allsorts:

Thank you Bill, that is good stuff!

[raj215]

Perhaps you should learn a little bit about your own religion, before you go speaking of another one. This thread is about Islam, not Christianity. Many, including myself have questioned you and raised valid points and you have not bothered to respond to any of them. You are beginning to sound like a spoiled little child at this point.
Yes, this thread is about islam, and I am preparead to try and answer vaild questions. But, there are not valid questions, only attacks on islam

[Jude3b]

Dear Jude, You have not addressed my clain as to the corruption in the bible. If you consider the claim of corruption, you will find that this claim is not only made by muslims, but also by scholars of religion. In addition, it is you that have attacted islam. I never attacked any claim that is in the bible. My position on the bible is that it is a book that was divinely inspired, however, due to translation errors and interpolation, you cannot know for sure what is divinely inspired and what is from man. All you have to do is check out your history of the bible and its revealtions.

Yes, I have read the Quran and both the new testament and the old. Why do you seperate the two, if they are both in your bible.

In addition, you have not given your scholarly responce to the website I have provided or must I post the information on this thread????

You also keep talkng about historical evidence, what i have mentioned is historical evidence.

Any facts that you have concerning the validity of islam that you would like to share is find with me.
But, when you share these facts, please keep in mind that these facts are one sided and based upon one sided information provided by one sided thinkers. Therefore, they can be refuted.

Dear raj215:

I viewed that web site and there is not much to it. To take some Old Testament verses out of context and try to make them say something that they are not about, is not a work of superior apologetics.

Biblical inspiration and accuracy are independently verified by prophecy, archeology, manuscript evidence, and other means, including the individual "born-again" experience - which you cannot know anything about, since you are not saved.

Raj, you are either unknowingly and I will add regrettably, being misled by Muslim apologists whose primary arguments are based on subjectivism, logical fallacies, anachronism, and unfortunate historical errors. You are only being deceived - by your Muslim apologists and what they are telling you about the Bible. They do not know or understand the Bible and they do not have its Author as their Savior. They are lost, sinful men on the way to a Hell meant for the Devil and his demons, along with anyone else who holds the Righteousness of God - the Very Lord and Savior Jesus Christ - and the Word of God - the Holy Bible, in unrighteousness!

Now, this thread is supposed to be about ISLAM AND TERROISM. It is not about lies that some Muslim apologetic web site has to say about the Lord and Savior JESUS CHRIST, His Bible and Christianity.

So, Can we please get back to the subject at hand - ISLAM AND TERRORISM?

Islam, offers no genuine evidence for its claim that the Koran is inspired, other than Muhammad's own claim he was inspired by Gabriel. But what if Muhammad was wrong Raj? Raj, if the biblical God is the true God and if Muhammad were a prophet of God, he would never have denied God's revelation in the Bible. Let me show you why I say that.

Isn't it true that the Koran claims that Allah is the God who inspired the Old Testament and the New Testament? "...We gave to Moses the Book and the Salvation that haply you should be guided." Muslims are commanded, "Observe the Torah and the Gospel...what is revealed to them from Allah."

Elsewhere Muslims are told: "O believers, believe in God and His Messenger (Muhammad) and the Book He has sent down on His Messenger (the Koran) and the Book which He sent down before (the Bible). Whoso disbelieves in God and His angels and His Books, and His Messengers, and the Last Day, has surely gone astray into far error...God will gather the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in Gehenna."

In the above verses we see that those who reject God's books (plural) and Messengers (plural) are said to be unbelievers! Muslims are thus forbidden by Allah to accept only part of God's revelations.

What are you going to do Raj? If you accept what the Koran teaches, then you must accept what the Bible teaches - which rejects what the Koran teaches.

WHAT YOU GOING TO DO RAJ?

If a Muslim truly accepts the Bible and rejects what the Koran teaches, he can no longer remain a Muslim and should become a Christian.

SO HOW CAN A MUSLIM TRUST WHAT THE KORAN TEACHES WHEN IT SIMULTANEOUSLY UNDERMINES ITS OWN AUTHORITY?

Will you study the evidence or will you simply ignore the Historical evidence? Will you simply go on, like so many Muslims do and say, "SO IT IS, AND IT CAN BE NO OTHER WAY?" Will you simply say "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!"

I continue to pray that you will consider the true Jesus Christ of the Bible and how much He loves you and wants you to be one of his disciples. I pray that you will accept this in the Love with which I intend it.

[raj215]

Dear raj215:

I viewed that web site and there is not much to it. To take some Old Testament verses out of context and try to make them say something that they are not about, is not a work of superior apologetics.

Biblical inspiration and accuracy are independently verified by prophecy, archeology, manuscript evidence, and other means, including the individual "born-again" experience - which you cannot know anything about, since you are not saved.

Raj, you are either unknowingly and I will add regrettably, being misled by Muslim apologists whose primary arguments are based on subjectivism, logical fallacies, anachronism, and unfortunate historical errors. You are only being deceived - by your Muslim apologists and what they are telling you about the Bible. They do not know or understand the Bible and they do not have its Author as their Savior. They are lost, sinful men on the way to a Hell meant for the Devil and his demons, along with anyone else who holds the Righteousness of God - the Very Lord and Savior Jesus Christ - and the Word of God - the Holy Bible, in unrighteousness!

Now, this thread is supposed to be about ISLAM AND TERROISM. It is not about lies that some Muslim apologetic web site has to say about the Lord and Savior JESUS CHRIST, His Bible and Christianity.

So, Can we please get back to the subject at hand - ISLAM AND TERRORISM?

Islam, offers no genuine evidence for its claim that the Koran is inspired, other than Muhammad's own claim he was inspired by Gabriel. But what if Muhammad was wrong Raj? Raj, if the biblical God is the true God and if Muhammad were a prophet of God, he would never have denied God's revelation in the Bible. Let me show you why I say that.

Isn't it true that the Koran claims that Allah is the God who inspired the Old Testament and the New Testament? "...We gave to Moses the Book and the Salvation that haply you should be guided." Muslims are commanded, "Observe the Torah and the Gospel...what is revealed to them from Allah."

Elsewhere Muslims are told: "O believers, believe in God and His Messenger (Muhammad) and the Book He has sent down on His Messenger (the Koran) and the Book which He sent down before (the Bible). Whoso disbelieves in God and His angels and His Books, and His Messengers, and the Last Day, has surely gone astray into far error...God will gather the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in Gehenna."

In the above verses we see that those who reject God's books (plural) and Messengers (plural) are said to be unbelievers! Muslims are thus forbidden by Allah to accept only part of God's revelations.

What are you going to do Raj? If you accept what the Koran teaches, then you must accept what the Bible teaches - which rejects what the Koran teaches.

WHAT YOU GOING TO DO RAJ?

If a Muslim truly accepts the Bible and rejects what the Koran teaches, he can no longer remain a Muslim and should become a Christian.

SO HOW CAN A MUSLIM TRUST WHAT THE KORAN TEACHES WHEN IT SIMULTANEOUSLY UNDERMINES ITS OWN AUTHORITY?

Will you study the evidence or will you simply ignore the Historical evidence? Will you simply go on, like so many Muslims do and say, "SO IT IS, AND IT CAN BE NO OTHER WAY?" Will you simply say "Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!"

I continue to pray that you will consider the true Jesus Christ of the Bible and how much He loves you and wants you to be one of his disciples. I pray that you will accept this in the Love with which I intend it.
First of all,my dear brother, there is no verse in the quran that states "has surely gone astray...." So, that is another misrepresentation of yours concerning islam. In addition, musslims believe in all the revelations of god. We also believe that man has corrupted parts of it with their own ideas. Therefore, we dont know what is from god and what is from man.

[Jude3b]

First of all,my dear brother, there is no verse in the quran that states "has surely gone astray...." So, that is another misrepresentation of yours concerning islam. In addition, musslims believe in all the revelations of god. We also believe that man has corrupted parts of it with their own ideas. Therefore, we dont know what is from god and what is from man.

Dear raj215:

Yes, I already knew that Muslims view parts of the Bible as corrupted. I've already stated that to you twice in previous posts. My question to you is, why not read the Bible, especially the New Testament for yourself and while your reading - pray and ask God to show you the truth contained therein? Your not afraid to read it and study it, are you?

[Bill the Cat]

So why did Osama Abdallah buy the rights to http://www.answering-islam.com/ac.htm? To deceive people looking for answeringislam.com or answering-islam.org? Mighty cowardly from someone who is so confident in his religion...

Now to the OP, what say you of these particular passages?

from http://www.answering-islam.org/Terrorism/peace-loving.html

"Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah, whether he is slain or gets victory soon shall we give him a reward of great (value)" 4:74

"فَلْيُقَاتِلْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ الَّذِينَ يَشْرُونَ الْحَيَاةَ الدُّنْيَا بِالآخِرَةِ وَمَن يُقَاتِلْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ فَيُقْتَلْ أَو يَغْلِبْ فَسَوْفَ نُؤْتِيهِ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا" النساء"74:4

“Seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” 4:89

"وَدُّواْ لَوْ تَكْفُرُونَ كَمَا كَفَرُواْ فَتَكُونُونَ سَوَاء فَلاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ مِنْهُمْ أَوْلِيَاء حَتَّىَ يُهَاجِرُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَخُذُوهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ وَجَدتَّمُوهُمْ وَلاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ مِنْهُمْ وَلِيًّا وَلاَ نَصِيرًا" النساء 89:4

"Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home "4:95

"لاَّ يَسْتَوِي الْقَاعِدُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ غَيْرُ أُوْلِي الضَّرَرِ وَالْمُجَاهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ فَضَّلَ اللّهُ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ عَلَى الْقَاعِدِينَ دَرَجَةً وَكُـلاًّ وَعَدَ اللّهُ الْحُسْنَى وَفَضَّلَ اللّهُ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ عَلَى الْقَاعِدِينَ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا" النساء 95:4

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly" 8:60

"وَأَعِدُّواْ لَهُم مَّا اسْتَطَعْتُم مِّن قُوَّةٍ وَمِن رِّبَاطِ الْخَيْلِ تُرْهِبُونَ بِهِ عَدْوَّ اللّهِ وَعَدُوَّكُمْ وَآخَرِينَ مِن دُونِهِمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَهُمُ اللّهُ يَعْلَمُهُمْ وَمَا تُنفِقُواْ مِن شَيْءٍ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ يُوَفَّ إِلَيْكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ لاَ تُظْلَمُونَ" الأنفال 60:8

"O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding" 8:65

"يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ حَرِّضِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عَلَى الْقِتَالِ إِن يَكُن مِّنكُمْ عِشْرُونَ صَابِرُونَ يَغْلِبُواْ مِئَتَيْنِ وَإِن يَكُن مِّنكُم مِّئَةٌ يَغْلِبُواْ أَلْفًا مِّنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَوْمٌ لاَّ يَفْقَهُونَ" الأنفال 65:8

"Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, and heal the breasts of the Believers" 9:14

"قَاتِلُوهُمْ يُعَذِّبْهُمُ اللّهُ بِأَيْدِيكُمْ وَيُخْزِهِمْ وَيَنصُرْكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَيَشْفِ صُدُورَ قَوْمٍ مُّؤْمِنِين" التوبة 14:9

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" 9:29

"قَاتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَابَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُون" التوبة 29:9

"Say: can you expect for us (and fate) other than one of two glorious things (martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment (for not believing in Allah) from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you" 9:52

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practise regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” 9:5

"فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُواْ لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتَوُاْ الزَّكَاةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ" التوبة 5:9

Ibn Haban in his Sahih, vol. 14, p. 529, narrates: Muhammad said: “I swear by Him who has my soul in his hands, I was sent to you with nothing but slaughter.”

In his Musnad (vol. 2, p. 50) Imam Ahmed narrates by Ibn Omar: “the Prophet said: ‘I was sent by the sword proceeding the judgment day and my livelihood is in the shadow of my spear and humiliation and submission are on those who disobey me.’”

Omar Ibn al-Khatab said: “I heard the prophet of Allah saying: ‘I will cast Jews and Christians out of the peninsula and I won’t leave any one in it but Muslims.’” (Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 2, No. 28, from the Muhaddith program[2])

Ibn Ishaq and al-Waqidi report that the prophet said the morning after the murder (of Kab Ibn al’Ashraf), “Kill any Jew you can lay your hands on.” (El beddayah wa alnihaya – Ibn Katheer – vol. 4 – in the chapter on killing Ka’ab bin al’Ashraf)

[raj215]

So why did Osama Abdallah buy the rights to http://www.answering-islam.com/ac.htm? To deceive people looking for answeringislam.com or answering-islam.org? Mighty cowardly from someone who is so confident in his religion...

Now to the OP, what say you of these particular passages?

from http://www.answering-islam.org/Terrorism/peace-loving.html

"Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah, whether he is slain or gets victory soon shall we give him a reward of great (value)" 4:74

"فَلْيُقَاتِلْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ الَّذِينَ يَشْرُونَ الْحَيَاةَ الدُّنْيَا بِالآخِرَةِ وَمَن يُقَاتِلْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ فَيُقْتَلْ أَو يَغْلِبْ فَسَوْفَ نُؤْتِيهِ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا" النساء"74:4

“Seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” 4:89

"وَدُّواْ لَوْ تَكْفُرُونَ كَمَا كَفَرُواْ فَتَكُونُونَ سَوَاء فَلاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ مِنْهُمْ أَوْلِيَاء حَتَّىَ يُهَاجِرُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَخُذُوهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ وَجَدتَّمُوهُمْ وَلاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ مِنْهُمْ وَلِيًّا وَلاَ نَصِيرًا" النساء 89:4

"Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home "4:95

"لاَّ يَسْتَوِي الْقَاعِدُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ غَيْرُ أُوْلِي الضَّرَرِ وَالْمُجَاهِدُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ فَضَّلَ اللّهُ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ بِأَمْوَالِهِمْ وَأَنفُسِهِمْ عَلَى الْقَاعِدِينَ دَرَجَةً وَكُـلاًّ وَعَدَ اللّهُ الْحُسْنَى وَفَضَّلَ اللّهُ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ عَلَى الْقَاعِدِينَ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا" النساء 95:4

"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly" 8:60

"وَأَعِدُّواْ لَهُم مَّا اسْتَطَعْتُم مِّن قُوَّةٍ وَمِن رِّبَاطِ الْخَيْلِ تُرْهِبُونَ بِهِ عَدْوَّ اللّهِ وَعَدُوَّكُمْ وَآخَرِينَ مِن دُونِهِمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَهُمُ اللّهُ يَعْلَمُهُمْ وَمَا تُنفِقُواْ مِن شَيْءٍ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ يُوَفَّ إِلَيْكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ لاَ تُظْلَمُونَ" الأنفال 60:8

"O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding" 8:65

"يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ حَرِّضِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عَلَى الْقِتَالِ إِن يَكُن مِّنكُمْ عِشْرُونَ صَابِرُونَ يَغْلِبُواْ مِئَتَيْنِ وَإِن يَكُن مِّنكُم مِّئَةٌ يَغْلِبُواْ أَلْفًا مِّنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَوْمٌ لاَّ يَفْقَهُونَ" الأنفال 65:8

"Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, and heal the breasts of the Believers" 9:14

"قَاتِلُوهُمْ يُعَذِّبْهُمُ اللّهُ بِأَيْدِيكُمْ وَيُخْزِهِمْ وَيَنصُرْكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَيَشْفِ صُدُورَ قَوْمٍ مُّؤْمِنِين" التوبة 14:9

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" 9:29

"قَاتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَابَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُون" التوبة 29:9

"Say: can you expect for us (and fate) other than one of two glorious things (martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment (for not believing in Allah) from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you" 9:52

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular Prayers and practise regular Charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” 9:5

"فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُواْ لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلاَةَ وَآتَوُاْ الزَّكَاةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ" التوبة 5:9

Ibn Haban in his Sahih, vol. 14, p. 529, narrates: Muhammad said: “I swear by Him who has my soul in his hands, I was sent to you with nothing but slaughter.”

In his Musnad (vol. 2, p. 50) Imam Ahmed narrates by Ibn Omar: “the Prophet said: ‘I was sent by the sword proceeding the judgment day and my livelihood is in the shadow of my spear and humiliation and submission are on those who disobey me.’”

Omar Ibn al-Khatab said: “I heard the prophet of Allah saying: ‘I will cast Jews and Christians out of the peninsula and I won’t leave any one in it but Muslims.’” (Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 2, No. 28, from the Muhaddith program[2])

Ibn Ishaq and al-Waqidi report that the prophet said the morning after the murder (of Kab Ibn al’Ashraf), “Kill any Jew you can lay your hands on.” (El beddayah wa alnihaya – Ibn Katheer – vol. 4 – in the chapter on killing Ka’ab bin al’Ashraf)
I still do not understand what your point is. If you read those verses that you cited in there proper perspective, you will find that the muslims were given the permission to defend themselves against the transgression of those who were bent upon destroying islam and its prophet. Just as you are bent on trying to discredit islam with your misrepresentations. Reguardless of what you believe or think, the validity of islam has been well established over the past 1400 years. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world with well over one billion members worldwide.

I along with the vast majority of muslims have always encountered people like you who truly do not understand the purpose of religion or the message of scripture because you are so intent on your hatered or dislike for those who do not believe as you do. Just talking to you in this forum has made me glad that I am MUSLIM. I do not share your hatred of other people and other beliefs.

I do not try to discredit your scripture because I do not want to be held accountable for such a great sin on the day of judgement. So I suggest that you not only love jesus, but you love God even more and ask for his mercy for uttering a lie against god and his prophet.

I pray that the sickness you are stricken with will soon go away and god will bless you with understanding over knowledge. That was the problem with satan, he thought that since he was made from fire (knowledge) that he was superior to the angles and that is the attitude that got his kcked out of heaven. Take a good look at yourself and ask youself if you truly understand the purpose of religion and has it manifested in your life or are you just verse quoater????

[raj215]

I still do not understand what your point is. If you read those verses that you cited in there proper perspective, you will find that the muslims were given the permission to defend themselves against the transgression of those who were bent upon destroying islam and its prophet. Just as you are bent on trying to discredit islam with your misrepresentations. Reguardless of what you believe or think, the validity of islam has been well established over the past 1400 years. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world with well over one billion members worldwide.

I along with the vast majority of muslims have always encountered people like you who truly do not understand the purpose of religion or the message of scripture because you are so intent on your hatered or dislike for those who do not believe as you do. Just talking to you in this forum has made me glad that I am MUSLIM. I do not share your hatred of other people and other beliefs.

I do not try to discredit your scripture because I do not want to be held accountable for such a great sin on the day of judgement. So I suggest that you not only love jesus, but you love God even more and ask for his mercy for uttering a lie against god and his prophet.

I pray that the sickness you are stricken with will soon go away and god will bless you with understanding over knowledge. That was the problem with satan, he thought that since he was made from fire (knowledge) that he was superior to the angles and that is the attitude that got his kcked out of heaven. Take a good look at yourself and ask youself if you truly understand the purpose of religion and has it manifested in your life or are you just verse quoater???? In addition, it was very kind of you to post the first web cite in your responce. It does a very good job in answering all of your questions. but you fail to UNDERSTAND

Back to back replies to the same post are not allowed. Please allow a person to respond to your first post before replying a second time. If you need to add more information to your first post, you should use the "edit" button that is on the first post for 45 minites after you first entered that post and add in your additional thoughts there.

[Bill the Cat]

I still do not understand what your point is. If you read those verses that you cited in there proper perspective, you will find that the muslims were given the permission to defend themselves against the transgression of those who were bent upon destroying islam and its prophet.


I may bid the possibility for some of the verses, but not 9:5 (The verse of the Sword) It says ZERO about defending themselves. Nor does this explain anything in the Hadeeths. Your hand waving is a desperate act. Defend the hadeeths if you can.


Just as you are bent on trying to discredit islam with your misrepresentations.
I don't need to discredit plain text. It represents itself. When the phrase “Kill any Jew you can lay your hands on.” is used in a hadeeth by your so called prophet, the credit lays at his feet.


Reguardless of what you believe or think, the validity of islam has been well established over the past 1400 years.

By force alone, to be sure. "Convert or die!"


Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world with well over one billion members worldwide.

Solely because of birthrate in poorer Muslim countries and the inclusion of groups like Farrakahn's Nation of Islam. Christianity is still the largest religion in the world.


I along with the vast majority of muslims have always encountered people like you who truly do not understand the purpose of religion or the message of scripture because you are so intent on your hatered or dislike for those who do not believe as you do.
Dear sir, I do not hate you. I pity you in your legalistic religion. I pity your women who are treated worse than animals. I pity your men who are made to bow down to Mecca when Allah is supposed to be in Heaven. Yours is a sad lot and I feel sorry for you. By all means I do not hate you though.


Just talking to you in this forum has made me glad that I am MUSLIM. I do not share your hatred of other people and other beliefs.
You presume much. I have a dear friend who is a Mormon, one who is a Jehovah's witness, a Wiccan, and several professed Atheists and agnostics. I no more hate them nor what they stand for than I do you. I also know a kind gentleman here at my office who is a Muslim from Pakistan. Fine gentleman, just in doctrinal error.


I do not try to discredit your scripture because I do not want to be held accountable for such a great sin on the day of judgement.
You don't judge it? Boy, that Oscar Mayer would go great with some cheese. You accuse it of being corrupt, but don't know which part, you know so little about the New Testament that it's ridiculous. We as Christians are commanded BY THAT SCRIPTURE to test those things taught and expose error where we find it. Islam is in error and it must be exposed. There is no sin in obedience to the Bible. For you to say that it is betrays your ignorance of it.


So I suggest that you not only love jesus, but you love God even more and ask for his mercy for uttering a lie against god and his prophet.

Jesus is God incarnate, so loving "God" more than Jesus is an oxymoron. And if I were to really utter a lie against a real prophet, I can't find it in my posts. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else?


I pray that the sickness you are stricken with will soon go away and god will bless you with understanding over knowledge.
I assure you, I am in great health and spiritually, I am more in tune with God's desire for me and my family than I ever have been (long story)


That was the problem with satan, he thought that since he was made from fire (knowledge) that he was superior to the angles and that is the attitude that got his kcked out of heaven.
Wrongo! Satan tried to usurp the throne of God. THAT is why he was booted out.


Take a good look at yourself and ask youself if you truly understand the purpose of religion and has it manifested in your life or are you just verse quoater????

I can assure you, I know the purpose of religion, and I am a servant of the Lord Most High. He has manifest Himself in my life in a very real way. And as far as the "verse quoter" insult, please rest assured that I am called to be ready to defend myself against Satan and His minions with my Armor of God. If you had read the New Testament, you would understand that.

You also failed to answer why Osama bought that domain name. Mighty deceptive...

[raj215]

I may bid the possibility for some of the verses, but not 9:5 (The verse of the Sword) It says ZERO about defending themselves. Nor does this explain anything in the Hadeeths. Your hand waving is a desperate act. Defend the hadeeths if you can.


I don't need to discredit plain text. It represents itself. When the phrase “Kill any Jew you can lay your hands on.” is used in a hadeeth by your so called prophet, the credit lays at his feet.



By force alone, to be sure. "Convert or die!"



Solely because of birthrate in poorer Muslim countries and the inclusion of groups like Farrakahn's Nation of Islam. Christianity is still the largest religion in the world.


Dear sir, I do not hate you. I pity you in your legalistic religion. I pity your women who are treated worse than animals. I pity your men who are made to bow down to Mecca when Allah is supposed to be in Heaven. Yours is a sad lot and I feel sorry for you. By all means I do not hate you though.


You presume much. I have a dear friend who is a Mormon, one who is a Jehovah's witness, a Wiccan, and several professed Atheists and agnostics. I no more hate them nor what they stand for than I do you. I also know a kind gentleman here at my office who is a Muslim from Pakistan. Fine gentleman, just in doctrinal error.


You don't judge it? Boy, that Oscar Mayer would go great with some cheese. You accuse it of being corrupt, but don't know which part, you know so little about the New Testament that it's ridiculous. We as Christians are commanded BY THAT SCRIPTURE to test those things taught and expose error where we find it. Islam is in error and it must be exposed. There is no sin in obedience to the Bible. For you to say that it is betrays your ignorance of it.


Jesus is God incarnate, so loving "God" more than Jesus is an oxymoron. And if I were to really utter a lie against a real prophet, I can't find it in my posts. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else?


I assure you, I am in great health and spiritually, I am more in tune with God's desire for me and my family than I ever have been (long story)


Wrongo! Satan tried to usurp the throne of God. THAT is why he was booted out.



I can assure you, I know the purpose of religion, and I am a servant of the Lord Most High. He has manifest Himself in my life in a very real way. And as far as the "verse quoter" insult, please rest assured that I am called to be ready to defend myself against Satan and His minions with my Armor of God. If you had read the New Testament, you would understand that.

You also failed to answer why Osama bought that domain name. Mighty deceptive... YOU, MY BROTHER ALSO FAILED TO ADDRESS THE ISSUES SET FORTH IN THE WEB SITE. wHY DO YOU NOT REFUTE THOSE CLAIMES

Don't post in all caps.

[raj215]

YOU, MY BROTHER ALSO FAILED TO ADDRESS THE ISSUES SET FORTH IN THE WEB SITE. wHY DO YOU NOT REFUTE THOSE CLAIMES Since you know so much about what is in the quran and you cited the verse of the sword, please explain to me what was the circumstances upon which that verse was revealed. In your explaination, please include the verse of 9:13 which gives the reason for slaying the pagans.

This should prove that you really dont know what you are talking about:whack:


back to back posts are not allowed, see above

[raj215]

the above post waits to be answered by on of this cites so called scholars

back to back posts are not allowed, see above

[raj215]

I may bid the possibility for some of the verses, but not 9:5 (The verse of the Sword) It says ZERO about defending themselves. Nor does this explain anything in the Hadeeths. Your hand waving is a desperate act. Defend the hadeeths if you can.


I don't need to discredit plain text. It represents itself. When the phrase “Kill any Jew you can lay your hands on.” is used in a hadeeth by your so called prophet, the credit lays at his feet.



By force alone, to be sure. "Convert or die!"



Solely because of birthrate in poorer Muslim countries and the inclusion of groups like Farrakahn's Nation of Islam. Christianity is still the largest religion in the world.


Dear sir, I do not hate you. I pity you in your legalistic religion. I pity your women who are treated worse than animals. I pity your men who are made to bow down to Mecca when Allah is supposed to be in Heaven. Yours is a sad lot and I feel sorry for you. By all means I do not hate you though.


You presume much. I have a dear friend who is a Mormon, one who is a Jehovah's witness, a Wiccan, and several professed Atheists and agnostics. I no more hate them nor what they stand for than I do you. I also know a kind gentleman here at my office who is a Muslim from Pakistan. Fine gentleman, just in doctrinal error.


You don't judge it? Boy, that Oscar Mayer would go great with some cheese. You accuse it of being corrupt, but don't know which part, you know so little about the New Testament that it's ridiculous. We as Christians are commanded BY THAT SCRIPTURE to test those things taught and expose error where we find it. Islam is in error and it must be exposed. There is no sin in obedience to the Bible. For you to say that it is betrays your ignorance of it.


Jesus is God incarnate, so loving "God" more than Jesus is an oxymoron. And if I were to really utter a lie against a real prophet, I can't find it in my posts. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else?


I assure you, I am in great health and spiritually, I am more in tune with God's desire for me and my family than I ever have been (long story)


Wrongo! Satan tried to usurp the throne of God. THAT is why he was booted out.



I can assure you, I know the purpose of religion, and I am a servant of the Lord Most High. He has manifest Himself in my life in a very real way. And as far as the "verse quoter" insult, please rest assured that I am called to be ready to defend myself against Satan and His minions with my Armor of God. If you had read the New Testament, you would understand that.

You also failed to answer why Osama bought that domain name. Mighty deceptive...
Are you implying that that website was brought by osama bin laden??? If that is your best defence, it is very weak. Just answer the claims therein if you are so knowledgeable in religion

[Bill the Cat]

Dude, are you even reading my posts? Osama Abdella owns answering-christianity.com. He purchased answering-islam.com and I believe that is being deceptive to those seeking the other side of the arguments.

And as far as the claims on the website, they are useless in this thread. You hand wave every controversial verse and refuse to interact with any of my input. You are not even trying... if that's your best defense, maybe you need to rebury your head in the sand and ignore the blatant references in the hadeeths. "Kill any Jew you can get your hands on"? If you think for one minute that this is defending yourself, you are more clueless than you appear to be about the New Testament!!

[raj215]

Dude, are you even reading my posts? Osama Abdella owns answering-christianity.com. He purchased answering-islam.com and I believe that is being deceptive to those seeking the other side of the arguments.

And as far as the claims on the website, they are useless in this thread. You hand wave every controversial verse and refuse to interact with any of my input. You are not even trying... if that's your best defense, maybe you need to rebury your head in the sand and ignore the blatant references in the hadeeths. "Kill any Jew you can get your hands on"? If you think for one minute that this is defending yourself, you are more clueless than you appear to be about the New Testament!!
Yes DUDE, I read ll of your post, I still do not see the inportance of osama abdella owning a website, please enlighten me dear scholar. In addition, while reading through your book, I find that certain information seems to be missing, namely: The book of the wars of the lord, mentioned in Numbers 21;14, The book of the covenant of Moses mentioned in Exodus 24;7,
The book of the acts of Soloman mentioned in I Kings11;14, Book of Chronicles mentioned in Nehemiah 12:33, The book of visions of Isaiah, mentioned in II chronicles 32:32. Maybe you can tell me what happened to this information so my reading can be complete, or has someone tampered with your book.

Also in the verse of the sword that you mentioned Quran 9:5, If you had any real knowledge of islam you would would know that this verse was reveled at a time when the muslims were being killed and persecuted by the pagans and there allies. After receiving revelations to defend themselves and slay the pagans whereever you find them, the reason for this action is stated in verse 9;13 where it states will you not fight people who violated their oath, pplotted to expel the messenger, and took the agressive by being the first to assult you. Self defence. :eek:

[Krusader]

Raj, could you please give me the reference in the Quran which states that Mohammed believed that the Torah and Injil of his day were corrupted?

[Bill the Cat]

Yes DUDE, I read ll of your post, I still do not see the inportance of osama abdella owning a website, please enlighten me dear scholar.

LAst I checked, I was not a scholar, nor did I ever claim to be...:no:


In addition, while reading through your book, I find that certain information seems to be missing, namely: The book of the wars of the lord, mentioned in Numbers 21;14, The book of the covenant of Moses mentioned in Exodus 24;7,
The book of the acts of Soloman mentioned in I Kings11;14, Book of Chronicles mentioned in Nehemiah 12:33, The book of visions of Isaiah, mentioned in II chronicles 32:32. Maybe you can tell me what happened to this information so my reading can be complete, or has someone tampered with your book.

You're goofy... Paul quotes from a secular Greek author, Jude quotes from Enoch. Big deal. Just because something is referenced, it does not mean it is canonical. If these were so important, the Jews would have preserved them. Also, I said the NEW Testament. Get with the program...


Also in the verse of the sword that you mentioned Quran 9:5, If you had any real knowledge of islam you would would know that this verse was reveled at a time when the muslims were being killed and persecuted by the pagans and there allies. After receiving revelations to defend themselves and slay the pagans whereever you find them, the reason for this action is stated in verse 9;13 where it states will you not fight people who violated their oath, pplotted to expel the messenger, and took the agressive by being the first to assult you. Self defence. :eek:

So you are saying this was only a message for a specific time? That makes it irrelivant today? Or does it come into play whenever an excuse is needed to kill people who could be viewed as breaking an oath? What verses of the Koran get to be brought into today and which do not? If it can apply in the situation it was revealed in, then it can be used to apply to any remotely similar situation today, thus the link to terrorism is established.

[raj215]

LAst I checked, I was not a scholar, nor did I ever claim to be...:no:



You're goofy... Paul quotes from a secular Greek author, Jude quotes from Enoch. Big deal. Just because something is referenced, it does not mean it is canonical. If these were so important, the Jews would have preserved them. Also, I said the NEW Testament. Get with the program...



So you are saying this was only a message for a specific time? That makes it irrelivant today? Or does it come into play whenever an excuse is needed to kill people who could be viewed as breaking an oath? What verses of the Koran get to be brought into today and which do not? If it can apply in the situation it was revealed in, then it can be used to apply to any remotely similar situation today, thus the link to terrorism is established.Your logic is so misplaced just like your view of islam.
God distroyed the people of Sodem becaused they were sexually perverted, so according to your logic we should kill all homosexuals. Muslims were given permission to defend themselves from the pagans who were the ones who took to aggression. They feared the message of Muhammad like you do. The pagans did not want to give up their worship of the idols because they knew they would loose their status
in that pagan society, just like you know you will loose your status and so called self inportance and self worth if you stopped worshipping the personality of jesus and worship the One and Only God who all of the Prophets since the beginning of time worshipped. This is your only way to salvation, to worship God and God alone.

Also, I think there is something in your book that says an eye for an eye, does that not contradict turn the other cheek.

Where is the love and forgiveness that you claim jesus spoke of in the bible, for surely you are not the embodiement of his TEACHING, all you have to do is read your own posts. There is nothing but hate within your writting, also from the picture you chose tells me a lot about the type of person you are.

If someone was thinking about turning to christianity, after a conversation with you, they may turn to total disbelief if you are a representative of what christianity is all about.

I am not going to resort to name calling because that would place me on the same level as you because islam teaches me that I should respect all people and to be patient with those without knowledge. If you care to explain to me why YOU do not believe or accept the information in the Old Testement when it is a part of your bible, why should anyone else accept anything from the New Testement when both the old and new testament make up the bible.

If one is not to acceot what is in the old testament, then please explain to me your saying in the beginning was the word and the word.......

If jesus was walking the earth today, would he claim to be a christian, NO, he would more that likely claim to be servant of God who submits to his will which would make him a muslim because a muslim is one who submits to gods will. Just like the trinity, the term christianity was developed by the hands of men.
Woe be to those who have changed the scripture with their own hands and then claim it was from god.

You still have not established a creditable link to your claim that islam promotes terrorism. If your logic was accepted, there would one billion muslims from all around the world who would be killing non-believers. So, your points are worthless until the majority of the Muslims believe as you think they should believe. Thank God this will never happen. Islam promotes peace and brotherhood between men

[Krusader]

Your logic is so misplaced just like your view of islam.
God distroyed the people of Sodem becaused they were sexually perverted, so according to your logic we should kill all homosexuals. Muslims were given permission to defend themselves from the pagans who were the ones who took to aggression. They feared the message of Muhammad like you do. The pagans did not want to give up their worship of the idols because they knew they would loose their status
in that pagan society, just like you know you will loose your status and so called self inportance and self worth if you stopped worshipping the personality of jesus and worship the One and Only God who all of the Prophets since the beginning of time worshipped. This is your only way to salvation, to worship God and God alone.

Also, I think there is something in your book that says an eye for an eye, does that not contradict turn the other cheek.

Where is the love and forgiveness that you claim jesus spoke of in the bible, for surely you are not the embodiement of his TEACHING, all you have to do is read your own posts. There is nothing but hate within your writting, also from the picture you chose tells me a lot about the type of person you are.

If someone was thinking about turning to christianity, after a conversation with you, they may turn to total disbelief if you are a representative of what christianity is all about.

I am not going to resort to name calling because that would place me on the same level as you because islam teaches me that I should respect all people and to be patient with those without knowledge. If you care to explain to me why YOU do not believe or accept the information in the Old Testement when it is a part of your bible, why should anyone else accept anything from the New Testement when both the old and new testament make up the bible.

If one is not to acceot what is in the old testament, then please explain to me your saying in the beginning was the word and the word.......

If jesus was walking the earth today, would he claim to be a christian, NO, he would more that likely claim to be servant of God who submits to his will which would make him a muslim because a muslim is one who submits to gods will. Just like the trinity, the term christianity was developed by the hands of men.
Woe be to those who have changed the scripture with their own hands and then claim it was from god.

You still have not established a creditable link to your claim that islam promotes terrorism. If your logic was accepted, there would one billion muslims from all around the world who would be killing non-believers. So, your points are worthless until the majority of the Muslims believe as you think they should believe. Thank God this will never happen. Islam promotes peace and brotherhood between men
Raj: Please show us an example of Islam promoting peace and brotherhood between Muslims in Iraq. All westerners ever see is Muslims killing each other. Where is the peace and brotherhood?

[Bill the Cat]

Your logic is so misplaced just like your view of islam.
God distroyed the people of Sodem becaused they were sexually perverted, so according to your logic we should kill all homosexuals.

Unless we are God, no.


Muslims were given permission to defend themselves from the pagans who were the ones who took to aggression. They feared the message of Muhammad like you do. The pagans did not want to give up their worship of the idols because they knew they would loose their status
in that pagan society,
So is it applicable today or not. A simple yes or no will do.


just like you know you will loose your status and so called self inportance and self worth if you stopped worshipping the personality of jesus and worship the One and Only God who all of the Prophets since the beginning of time worshipped. This is your only way to salvation, to worship God and God alone.
If I were to give up my relationship with Jesus, then I would have no salvation. Do you really need to have me quote verses on this?



Also, I think there is something in your book that says an eye for an eye, does that not contradict turn the other cheek.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. The law quoted is found in Exod. 21:23-25 and Lev. 24:18-20. Moses intended it to protect person and property by prescribing what punishment the law should inflict. He who took a life should lose his life; he who robbed another of an eye should be punished by the loss of an eye. The Jews perverted it to justify private retaliation. Jesus does not forbid the judicial application of the law, but personal revenge, such as was common among the Jews. Instead of turning upon those who injure us, and becoming a party to personal broils, it is the duty of Christians to suffer meekly.
[I]The Peoples' New Testament


Where is the love and forgiveness that you claim jesus spoke of in the bible, for surely you are not the embodiement of his TEACHING, all you have to do is read your own posts.

There is a time to speak kindly, then there is a time to speak not kind. You have brreached the latter point. You have no interest in learning about the real Jesus, so you get straight forward answers.


There is nothing but hate within your writting,

If you took the time to really read my posts, you would see that I do not hate you, once again. I pity you and others enslaved by your religious system.


also from the picture you chose tells me a lot about the type of person you are.

Yup, it's true, I am a science fiction nut who loves X-Men. That what you mean?


If someone was thinking about turning to christianity, after a conversation with you, they may turn to total disbelief if you are a representative of what christianity is all about.

Actually, I am a preacher and several people have turned their lives over to Christ under my pastorship. We understand the historical and Biblical Jesus as revealed within the New Testament, not the delusional false Jesus of the Koran.


I am not going to resort to name calling because that would place me on the same level as you because islam teaches me that I should respect all people and to be patient with those without knowledge.

Granted, I may lack knowledge about Islam, but you are too arrogant to admit the same about the Bible, so we are at an impasse


If you care to explain to me why YOU do not believe or accept the information in the Old Testement when it is a part of your bible, why should anyone else accept anything from the New Testement when both the old and new testament make up the bible.

Who doesn't accept what happened in the Old Testament?


If one is not to acceot what is in the old testament, then please explain to me your saying in the beginning was the word and the word.......

That's the New Testament... :sigh: :no:


If jesus was walking the earth today, would he claim to be a christian,
That's a dumb question. A Christian is a follower of Christ. He was not a follower of Himself...:no:


NO, he would more that likely claim to be servant of God who submits to his will which would make him a muslim because a muslim is one who submits to gods will.
So Jesus travelled to Mecca and knelt on a rug 5 times a day to Mecca? If you truly believe that, you are more hopeless in understanding Christianity than I had thought.



Just like the trinity, the term christianity was developed by the hands of men.
Actually, all the words of the Bible and the Koran were developed by hands of men. Or are you suggesting that Allah gave a leather bound copy to Mohammed?


Woe be to those who have changed the scripture with their own hands and then claim it was from god.
OOOOOHHH...I'm quaking in my boots. Mohammed was the one changing stuff. The Bible existed for hundreds of years before Mohammed created the Koran and it's varoius misrepresentations of Jesus and His character.


Galatians 1
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

[Augustine2004]

Raj, perhaps Bill the Cat hates Islam, but why do you say that he hates Muslims?

[raj215]

Raj: Please show us an example of Islam promoting peace and brotherhood between Muslims in Iraq. All westerners ever see is Muslims killing each other. Where is the peace and brotherhood?Dear C, Why, Why, do you keep looking at Iraq and people like Osama whatever his name is, this is the medias picture of Islam. I'm just trying to get you to understand that Islam is not like that. Reguardless of what you say and what you believe about islam, there are millioms and millions of muslim who share my same feelings about the violence committed in the name of Islam, it makes us sick. I hold the greatest respect for anyone who believes in god and tries to live a good life, these are my brothers in faith. I am a American, born and raised:woohoo: :ale:

Dear C, I wish you and the others viewing this thread would do me one small favor, go to www.thisisislam.islamacademy.com (http://www.thisisislam.islamacademy.com) and get back and tell me what you think, ok

[raj215]

Raj, perhaps Bill the Cat hates Islam, but why do you say that he hates Muslims?One thing I can say about you, every time I get one of your post it has a cooling effect on the atmosphere.:lol:
The person who you are referring to seems to have a big problem. In my opinion, you can't seperate the two. I may be wrong, but that is how I feel.

In all of his posts, he does no more than attack Islam and muslims. Now he claims to be some kind of preacher, If that is true, I would hate yo go to his church. He reminds me of a jim jones type person or the other guy from wako texas

[heaven]

Dear C, Why, Why, do you keep looking at Iraq and people like Osama whatever his name is, this is the medias picture of Islam. I'm just trying to get you to understand that Islam is not like that. Reguardless of what you say and what you believe about islam, there are millioms and millions of muslim who share my same feelings about the violence committed in the name of Islam, it makes us sick. I hold the greatest respect for anyone who believes in god and tries to live a good life, these are my brothers in faith. I am a American, born and raised:woohoo: :ale:
Were you born into a muslim family, and if so, are you sunni or shiite?
Because of the later surias in the Koran, which are the opposite of what you believe, would you be open to turning from sin, and accepting and receiving the
love of Jesus, who said "Love all men as I have loved you". Once tasting of this
love and forgiveness, something so real inside of you, you only then know what
true love is and feels like. It is awesome!:innocent:

[raj215]

Were you born into a muslim family, and if so, are you sunni or shiite?
Because of the later surias in the Koran, which are the opposite of what you believe, would you be open to turning from sin, and accepting and receiving the
love of Jesus, who said "Love all men as I have loved you". Once tasting of this
love and forgiveness, something so real inside of you, you only then know what
true love is and feels like. It is awesome!:innocent:
My Dear Heaven, thanks for the offer, but no thanks. I have found what I am lookng for in Islam. I could never accept the christian doctrin of the trinity :no:

[raj215]

Raj, could you please give me the reference in the Quran which states that Mohammed believed that the Torah and Injil of his day were corrupted?
He never said to my knowledge they were corrupt. I do know that god said woe be to those who have changed the scripture with there own hands and say it was from god

[Jude3b]

My Dear Heaven, thanks for the offer, but no thanks. I have found what I am lookng for in Islam. I could never accept the christian doctrin of the trinity :no:

And the reason you could NEVER ACCEPT the Christians doctrine of the trinity? Please, give some reason, other than the fact that you don't understand it.

[raj215]

And the reason you could NEVER ACCEPT the Christians doctrine of the trinity? Please, give some reason, other than the fact that you don't understand it.Say. He Allah is One, the eternally besought all. He begets not, nor is he begotten. Quran
I am a strong believer in this concept and anything that is contray to it, I must reject. If I am to worship god, I will only worship god not some concept that was made up by man. I must worship the god of all the prophets. This is the god of both jesus and muhammad. The god who created both the heavens and the earth. The god who created jesus and the god who will judge me after I past from this life. I also believe that it is raceism to portray gods son as a european with blue eyes and long stright hair, contray to the description in ths bible. By portraying god as a european, it makes other people think that they are inferior because they are not a part of the god-like race. The trinity goes completely against all logic

[Sparko]

I also believe that it is raceism to portray gods son as a european with blue eyes and long stright hair, contray to the description in ths bible.
First, I don't believe Jesus was a white european with blue eyes, but can you show me the description in the bible that it goes against? You can find a searchable online bible at www.biblegateway.com - so please go there and find this description of Jesus you are talking about.

[Bill the Cat]

In all of his posts, he does no more than attack Islam and muslims. Now he claims to be some kind of preacher, If that is true, I would hate yo go to his church. He reminds me of a jim jones type person or the other guy from wako texas

:sigh: So much for not stooping to name calling. I never insulted you personally, nor did I lump you in with any terrorist organization the way you just did to me.

You asked a question on Islam and terrorism, and I showed to the best of my ability how it could be viewed. I asked you a simple question as to whether or not the verse of the sword could be used as justification for anyone breaking a perceived oath with Muslims, and you refused to answer twice now. I'm done with you...

[Krusader]

:sigh: So much for not stooping to name calling. I never insulted you personally, nor did I lump you in with any terrorist organization the way you just did to me.

You asked a question on Islam and terrorism, and I showed to the best of my ability how it could be viewed. I asked you a simple question as to whether or not the verse of the sword could be used as justification for anyone breaking a perceived oath with Muslims, and you refused to answer twice now. I'm done with you...
Look, Bill, I've dealt with Muslims many times. When they can't answer you they always resort to name calling and disparaging remarks. So what, it comes with the turf. Ignore it and continue your excellent commentary on Islamic terrorism!

[raj215]

[QUOTE=JohnSparks]First, I don't believe Jesus was a white european with blue eyes, but can you show me the description in the bible that it goes against? You can find a searchable online bible at www.biblegateway.com (http://www.biblegateway.com/) - so please go there and find this description of Jesus you are talking about.[/
QUOTE]

Dear Brother, you know more about the bible than I, I am quite sure you know the passage that states that jesus had hair hair like sheeps wool and his skin was the color of bronze or something like that.

As a matter of fact, since we are on the subject, there was a time when it was forbidden to draw or paint the likeness of god or the angles, what changed that and since the change, why are all the pictures of god or the angles in the likeness of europeans

[raj215]

Look, Bill, I've dealt with Muslims many times. When they can't answer you they always resort to name calling and disparaging remarks. So what, it comes with the turf. Ignore it and continue your excellent commentary on Islamic terrorism!
You can be done with me if you like, it really does not matter. I answered your question on the verse of the sword, but yoy refuse to accept it. I will like to focus your attention on the part that states that they were the first to assult the prophet and the muslims. That part, you did not see. As to the person who mentioned name calling, that person should read the post and see i have always been respectful in my address, never have I used the term dude until in directed at me. Life goes on......

[Sparko]

Dear Brother, you know more about the bible than I, I am quite sure you know the passage that states that jesus had hair hair like sheeps wool and his skin was the color of bronze or something like that.

As a matter of fact, since we are on the subject, there was a time when it was forbidden to draw or paint the likeness of god or the angles, what changed that and since the change, why are all the pictures of god or the angles in the likeness of europeans
That description is of Jesus in heaven in the book of Revelation. The wool reference was about the COLOR of his hair (white) - he was thirty years old on earth, do you think he had white hair then?

There is no direct description of Jesus as he appeared on earth. Other than in Isaiah where it describes how he was to be despised by his fellows. So as far as we know, he could have had blonde hair and blue eyes.

But while we are on the subject of the description of Jesus in revelation, that gives me a chance to point out that the verse is one that shows Jesus to be God.

In Daniel 7 - it speaks of God in judgment of mankind:

9 "As I looked, "thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.

Then jump to Revelation 1

14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

So you were right in saying that the description of Jesus in revelation says he had hair like wool (as in white) - but it also is a reference to Jesus being God almighty himself.

[raj215]

That description is of Jesus in heaven in the book of Revelation. The wool reference was about the COLOR of his hair (white) - he was thirty years old on earth, do you think he had white hair then?

There is no direct description of Jesus as he appeared on earth. Other than in Isaiah where it describes how he was to be despised by his fellows. So as far as we know, he could have had blonde hair and blue eyes.

But while we are on the subject of the description of Jesus in revelation, that gives me a chance to point out that the verse is one that shows Jesus to be God.

In Daniel 7 - it speaks of God in judgment of mankind:

9 "As I looked, "thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.

Then jump to Revelation 1

14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

So you were right in saying that the description of Jesus in revelation says he had hair like wool (as in white) - but it also is a reference to Jesus being God almighty himself.
Well Sir, If that is what you want to believe. All I know is that Jesus said to satan "Worship the lord your god and serve him only...." Mathew 4;10 to me that indicates that Jesus knew who was God. Also, I think Jesus also said " I praise you, Father, Loatd of the heavens and earth." That dose not sound like he was talking about praising himself

[Sparko]

Jesus is God. the Father is God. the Holy Spirit is God. All are fully God. But the Father is not the Son or Holy Spirit, each is a person, yet one Being. three persons, one being.

The concept of the trinity became clear from reading scriptures like I showed you above, where it clearly shows Jesus to be God, but then reading passages where Jesus is clearly not the Father. If both the Father and Jesus are God and yet are not the same person, and the same can be found about the Holy Spirit, then you find that you have what we call the Trinity.

[raj215]

Your right, the trinity is complety beyond all logic. However I think in is best to disgard the 3 in one concept and go with what jeasus and all the other prophets worshipped, ONE GOD, NOT THREE

This is the real faith of Jesus, to worship one God, not the pagan concept of constantine. It is a shame that so many of you do not truley understand your own religion. Ask those who are really knowledgeable in your faith and they will tell you the truth. Dont ask the verse citers because they have knowledge of the bible but do not understand its contents

[Sparko]

You are the one who does not understand our religion, Raj.

We do worship one God. There is only one God. God is one God, revealed in three persons.

Your silly misrepresentations just show your ignorance. How can you ever hope to convince any of us that we are wrong and you are right, if you don't even understand what we believe?

Do you like the Christians in here that say that Islam teaches Terrorism and all muslims believe in terrorism? No. why not? could it be because it is a misrepresentation of YOUR religion? probably so. So don't do the same back to us if you want our understanding of your views.

[Jude3b]

Say. He Allah is One, the eternally besought all. He begets not, nor is he begotten. Quran
I am a strong believer in this concept and anything that is contray to it, I must reject. If I am to worship god, I will only worship god not some concept that was made up by man. I must worship the god of all the prophets. This is the god of both jesus and muhammad. The god who created both the heavens and the earth. The god who created jesus and the god who will judge me after I past from this life. I also believe that it is raceism to portray gods son as a european with blue eyes and long stright hair, contray to the description in ths bible. By portraying god as a european, it makes other people think that they are inferior because they are not a part of the god-like race. The trinity goes completely against all logic

Dear raj215:

Thank you for your response. Please do not be offended, but, as an unsaved person, without a personal Savior - you simply cannot clearly understand the Godhead. If you would read the New Testament of the Holy Bible - and try to read it with an open heart and mind (which I understand is nearly impossible for you - because of your religious bias) - you would start to understand The Trinity. Reading it would prove to be a real blessing to you.

I cannot adequately explain the Trinity in the limited space of a single post, clearly enough to persuade you, but I will tell you what the Word of God teaches on the subject.

The theological term "trinity" signifies the union of three Persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - in the Godhead. If Christ, with his marvelous perfections, be not truly God, then instead of bringing man to God, he has only succeeded in revealing to us the impassable gulf that exists between us and the divine One; but if he truly is "God manifest in the flesh" for the purpose of transforming sinful man into his own image, then we are assured of our moral and spiritual correspondence and communion with the Father in heaven.

Now Raj, as I have already stated, you do not understand the concept of the trinity and you cannot, because you are not born-again. These things are "spiritually discerned" and a mystery to you. Even though incomprehensible to you and to so many others, no one has yet shown that it involves any real contradiction. What demonstrated truth does it oppose? Are we not surrounded by many things that are in a real sense mysterious?

Raj, please consider H 2 0 for a moment. It is always H 2 0 and yet we might see it as water, or perhaps it evaporates and becomes a gas, or when it gets cold, below 32 degrees - it turns into ice. But it is always H 2 0. So, even it is a type of trinity.

Raj, even you and I are a sort of trinity, possessing intellect, sensibility, and will; and yet these distinct elements are in some unexplained and perhaps unexplainable, manner wondrously blended in an undoubted unity.

While this does not explain nor prove the exact nature of the Godhead, yet it should lead us to expect in the Infinite One a greater degree of mystery than exists within ourselves, and should caution us against rejecting everything that can not be brought down to the level of the finite mind.

The basis of our theology respecting God should be laid solely in what is revealed to us in the Holy Scriptures (Holy Bible). If we appeal directly to them, we find it is impossible to avoid the doctrine of the Trinity taught therein without doing great violence to scores of plain texts bearing on the subject. The Word of God teaches:
1) The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit are represented as special persons distinct from each other.
2) They are classed together, separate from all other beings.
3) Divine titles are applied to each.
4) Divine attributes are ascribed to each.
5) Divine words are attributed to each.

YET THE WORD OF GOD STATES THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD!

If you need help with exact verses to check out the facts I have just stated, let me know and I will gladly supply them. There are many, many verses that clearly teach this in both the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible.

[Bill the Cat]

You can be done with me if you like, it really does not matter.
I was, but if there is one thing I detest more than ignorance, it is lies. And you have lied. Let's take a walk down memory lane, shall we?


I answered your question on the verse of the sword, but yoy refuse to accept it.
I asked you what you thought of the verses I posted in post #116 to which you replied:
I still do not understand what your point is. If you read those verses that you cited in there proper perspective, you will find that the muslims were given the permission to defend themselves against the transgression of those who were bent upon destroying islam and its prophet. Just as you are bent on trying to discredit islam with your misrepresentations.

So I'll ask AGAIN (The first question you said you answered, but didn't), can someone use these verses to claim that an enemy has transgressed Islam? Would they be justified?


I then asked the question about the Muslim man who runs answeringchristianity.com buying the rights to the domain answeringislam.com. I named him in post #116 as Osama Abdella, then in post #119, I referred to him again, but this time as just Osama, figuring you had read my post 3 posts up, but alas, you replied:
Are you implying that that website was brought by osama bin laden??? If that is your best defence, it is very weak.
I then replied to you in post #124 Dude, are you even reading my posts? Osama Abdella owns answering-christianity.com. He purchased answering-islam.com and I believe that is being deceptive to those seeking the other side of the arguments.

to which you responded:
Yes DUDE, I read ll of your post, I still do not see the inportance of osama abdella owning a website, please enlighten me dear scholar

You obviously either didn't read it or you didn't care what I posted. If you can't see the significance, then I'll explain it. If I were a dog lover and a cat hater and owned a domain called dogsrock.com, I would not buy catsrock.com and populate it with cool dog things. That is being deceptive.



I will like to focus your attention on the part that states that they were the first to assult the prophet and the muslims. That part, you did not see.

I DID SEE THAT. Can't you get it? If Muhammed justified it as the infidels broke an oath and assaulted muslims first, couldn't any other muslim use the same justification to kill all the betraying infidels they can get their hands on?



As to the person who mentioned name calling, that person should read the post and see i have always been respectful in my address,

OK, let's look at your version of respect...

Post #3, instead of interacting with George you smugly brushed him aside with this little gem:
I do not know where you are getting your infornation but if you are ready to discuss islam and is teachings, let me know :eek:

Post #27 you deftly responded:
I hope you dont think you are trying to make me or islam look bad by your dumb comment.

You did good for a while until post#74 when you responded to George:
Your remark is not even worth responding to :stupid::stupid::stupid::stupid::stupid:

I won't even get into your rudeness with me except the Jim Jones comment. You know dip about Jim Jones or the devastation he caused in Guyana. My former pastor is a missionary there now in Georgetown and I talk to him and his wife weekly. They see every day the devastation Jim Jones caused that entire nation. To compare me to someone who forced his followers to commit suicide and who devastated an entire country for decades after is one of the highest insults. You should be ashamed of yourself!!

You have been respectful... bull crud! You are a liar and your own words betray you.


never have I used the term dude until in directed at me.
Dude is a term used in California mainly, but it rubbed off on me from my friend who is from Fresno. I call lots of people dude, and never mean disrespect by it. By you retaliating, I once again showed how the verse of the sword can be used by terrorists in today's society. If you perceived disrespect from me, you could retaliate. If a muslim perceives that they were attacked first, they can seek out all the infidels and kill them in retaliation.


Life goes on......
That it does...

[Maimonides]

Terrorists are NOT all muslims.

There has been condemnation from the muslim leaders about terrorism from all over the world, many muslims do not share the same view as Osama bin laden. The situation in iraq is very different. These people are fighting because they dont want to become a puppet country in the middle east for the united states.
Exactly! And I'd recommend Mahmood Mamdani's Good Muslim, Bad Muslim: America, the Cold War, and the Roots of Terror.

And lest we forget... what about Christian terrorism in northern Ireland between Catholics and Protestants? Maybe they aren't bona fide "born-again" Christians; certainly they claim to be Christian. And what about the political kidnappings in Columbia? Not too many Muslims there, I understand.

[CatholicSage]

Exactly! And I'd recommend Mahmood Mamdani's Good Muslim, Bad Muslim: America, the Cold War, and the Roots of Terror.

And lest we forget... what about Christian terrorism in northern Ireland between Catholics and Protestants? Maybe they aren't bona fide "born-again" Christians; certainly they claim to be Christian. And what about the political kidnappings in Columbia? Not too many Muslims there, I understand.

Terrorism in Ireland and Colombia is not motivated by religion. Global terrorism performed by Muslims is motivated by religion.

[Amazing Rando]

Terrorism in Ireland and Colombia is not motivated by religion. Global terrorism performed by Muslims is motivated by religion.

How about terrorism against abortion clinics in the USA? The bombings and the shootings of abortion doctors. I'd venture to say that they're primarily religiously motivated.

[CatholicSage]

They certainly are, I won't deny that. And I unequivocally condemn the hypocrites who perform those acts. Still, those attacks are far, far less common than Islamic terrorism, especially when you consider the sizes of the two religions.

[heaven]

That description is of Jesus in heaven in the book of Revelation. The wool reference was about the COLOR of his hair (white) - he was thirty years old on earth, do you think he had white hair then?

There is no direct description of Jesus as he appeared on earth. Other than in Isaiah where it describes how he was to be despised by his fellows. So as far as we know, he could have had blonde hair and blue eyes.

But while we are on the subject of the description of Jesus in revelation, that gives me a chance to point out that the verse is one that shows Jesus to be God.

In Daniel 7 - it speaks of God in judgment of mankind:

9 "As I looked, "thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his sea
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.

Then jump to Revelation 1

14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

So you were right in saying that the description of Jesus in revelation says he had hair like wool (as in white) - but it also is a reference to Jesus being God almighty himself.
==========================================================

In the Transfiguration on the mount, Jesus suddenly changed in appearance
and appeared sitted with Moses and Elijah, as the Ancient of Days with hair
as white as wool .

This was before His death and ressurection and yet, here He walks up the
mount in His humanity and suddenly appears in His Divinity talking with Moses
and Elijah.:smile:

[ekklesias]

If you took the time to really read my posts, you would see that I do not hate you, once again. I pity you and others enslaved by your religious system.
I think your posts are great!!!!!




Yup, it's true, I am a science fiction nut who loves X-Men. That what you mean?
Your picture is toooo cool!! Next to Storm, Wolverine is my favorite X-man, and the santa suit, too much!!!







That's a dumb question. A Christian is a follower of Christ. He was not a follower of Himself...:no:
I was going to say that but you beat me to it, how could he follow himself?

Keep up the good work!!

[raj215]

Dear raj215:

Thank you for your response. Please do not be offended, but, as an unsaved person, without a personal Savior - you simply cannot clearly understand the Godhead. If you would read the New Testament of the Holy Bible - and try to read it with an open heart and mind (which I understand is nearly impossible for you - because of your religious bias) - you would start to understand The Trinity. Reading it would prove to be a real blessing to you.

I cannot adequately explain the Trinity in the limited space of a single post, clearly enough to persuade you, but I will tell you what the Word of God teaches on the subject.

The theological term "trinity" signifies the union of three Persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - in the Godhead. If Christ, with his marvelous perfections, be not truly God, then instead of bringing man to God, he has only succeeded in revealing to us the impassable gulf that exists between us and the divine One; but if he truly is "God manifest in the flesh" for the purpose of transforming sinful man into his own image, then we are assured of our moral and spiritual correspondence and communion with the Father in heaven.

Now Raj, as I have already stated, you do not understand the concept of the trinity and you cannot, because you are not born-again. These things are "spiritually discerned" and a mystery to you. Even though incomprehensible to you and to so many others, no one has yet shown that it involves any real contradiction. What demonstrated truth does it oppose? Are we not surrounded by many things that are in a real sense mysterious?

Raj, please consider H 2 0 for a moment. It is always H 2 0 and yet we might see it as water, or perhaps it evaporates and becomes a gas, or when it gets cold, below 32 degrees - it turns into ice. But it is always H 2 0. So, even it is a type of trinity.

Raj, even you and I are a sort of trinity, possessing intellect, sensibility, and will; and yet these distinct elements are in some unexplained and perhaps unexplainable, manner wondrously blended in an undoubted unity.

While this does not explain nor prove the exact nature of the Godhead, yet it should lead us to expect in the Infinite One a greater degree of mystery than exists within ourselves, and should caution us against rejecting everything that can not be brought down to the level of the finite mind.

The basis of our theology respecting God should be laid solely in what is revealed to us in the Holy Scriptures (Holy Bible). If we appeal directly to them, we find it is impossible to avoid the doctrine of the Trinity taught therein without doing great violence to scores of plain texts bearing on the subject. The Word of God teaches:
1) The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit are represented as special persons distinct from each other.
2) They are classed together, separate from all other beings.
3) Divine titles are applied to each.
4) Divine attributes are ascribed to each.
5) Divine words are attributed to each.

YET THE WORD OF GOD STATES THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD!

If you need help with exact verses to check out the facts I have just stated, let me know and I will gladly supply them. There are many, many verses that clearly teach this in both the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible.
The belief in god is not complicated. Jesus did not teach the trinity, moses did not teach the trinity, nor did any bof the other prophets, so why should anyone accept it Would you please provide me with its history and how and why it was developed and by whom

[Augustine2004]

Raj, I am taking this arena to thank you for your recent message to me. I had browser problems that prevented a reply through that other channel. The snow effect for one thing is making my browser go very very slow. I will report this problem. Again, thanks.

[raj215]

I was, but if there is one thing I detest more than ignorance, it is lies. And you have lied. Let's take a walk down memory lane, shall we?


I asked you what you thought of the verses I posted in post #116 to which you replied:

I still do not understand what your point is. If you read those verses that you cited in there proper perspective, you will find that the muslims were given the permission to defend themselves against the transgression of those who were bent upon destroying islam and its prophet. Just as you are bent on trying to discredit islam with your misrepresentations.

So I'll ask AGAIN (The first question you said you answered, but didn't), can someone use these verses to claim that an enemy has transgressed Islam? Would they be justified?


I then asked the question about the Muslim man who runs answeringchristianity.com buying the rights to the domain answeringislam.com. I named him in post #116 as Osama Abdella, then in post #119, I referred to him again, but this time as just Osama, figuring you had read my post 3 posts up, but alas, you replied:

Are you implying that that website was brought by osama bin laden??? If that is your best defence, it is very weak.
I then replied to you in post #124 Dude, are you even reading my posts? Osama Abdella owns answering-christianity.com. He purchased answering-islam.com and I believe that is being deceptive to those seeking the other side of the arguments.

to which you responded:

Yes DUDE, I read ll of your post, I still do not see the inportance of osama abdella owning a website, please enlighten me dear scholar

You obviously either didn't read it or you didn't care what I posted. If you can't see the significance, then I'll explain it. If I were a dog lover and a cat hater and owned a domain called dogsrock.com, I would not buy catsrock.com and populate it with cool dog things. That is being deceptive.




I DID SEE THAT. Can't you get it? If Muhammed justified it as the infidels broke an oath and assaulted muslims first, couldn't any other muslim use the same justification to kill all the betraying infidels they can get their hands on?



OK, let's look at your version of respect...

Post #3, instead of interacting with George you smugly brushed him aside with this little gem:

I do not know where you are getting your infornation but if you are ready to discuss islam and is teachings, let me know :eek:

Post #27 you deftly responded:

I hope you dont think you are trying to make me or islam look bad by your dumb comment.

You did good for a while until post#74 when you responded to George:

Your remark is not even worth responding to :stupid::stupid::stupid::stupid::stupid:

I won't even get into your rudeness with me except the Jim Jones comment. You know dip about Jim Jones or the devastation he caused in Guyana. My former pastor is a missionary there now in Georgetown and I talk to him and his wife weekly. They see every day the devastation Jim Jones caused that entire nation. To compare me to someone who forced his followers to commit suicide and who devastated an entire country for decades after is one of the highest insults. You should be ashamed of yourself!!

You have been respectful... bull crud! You are a liar and your own words betray you.


Dude is a term used in California mainly, but it rubbed off on me from my friend who is from Fresno. I call lots of people dude, and never mean disrespect by it. By you retaliating, I once again showed how the verse of the sword can be used by terrorists in today's society. If you perceived disrespect from me, you could retaliate. If a muslim perceives that they were attacked first, they can seek out all the infidels and kill them in retaliation.


That it does...
It seems very strange that you say you detest liers. I must add to your statement that you must detest yourself. You have provided me with this long post and on top of that you call me a liar. Lets look at your statement

you asked me about a verse in the quran and I responded to the best of my ability. YOUR FIRST LIE

You asked again, and I told you that I had answered in one of my replies to you or crusader i dont know who but I answered. YOU SECOND LIE

You asked me about someone who owns a website and I still do not know why it is important to know who owns a cite as long as the information is correct. If I told you a muslim ownes theologyweb, what difference dose it make. I still dont know who ownes it and really don't care. YOUR THIRD LIE

[Bill the Cat]

It seems very strange that you say you detest liers. I must add to your statement that you must detest yourself. You have provided me with this long post and on top of that you call me a liar. Lets look at your statement

you asked me about a verse in the quran and I responded to the best of my ability. YOUR FIRST LIE

No, I asked you if it could be applied today, which you still have not answered. Strike one...No lie there


You asked again, and I told you that I had answered in one of my replies to you or crusader i dont know who but I answered. YOU SECOND LIE

Yet you fail to provide this supposed information. Strike two...no lie there


You asked me about someone who owns a website and I still do not know why it is important to know who owns a cite as long as the information is correct. If I told you a muslim ownes theologyweb, what difference dose it make. I still dont know who ownes it and really don't care. YOUR THIRD LIE

How can my asking a question be a lie? You must not understand the English language very well. And you draw a false parallel to boot. Theologyweb includes Muslims, as this forum proves. I showed you in my simple analogy what I was talking about. Guess it was too far over your head, so I'll drop the request as you probably have to run off to your teacher to ask for an answer. But there was no lie because I asked a simple question. Strike 3... and you lose again!

Actually, this is kind of fun, so I'll hang out as long as you want to play the little "no answer" game. I'll make it simple for you. Don't respond to anything else I say until you give me a yes or no.

Can a faithful Muslim use the verse of the sword today to retaliate against someone for breaking an oath?

[Sparko]

The belief in god is not complicated. Jesus did not teach the trinity, moses did not teach the trinity, nor did any bof the other prophets, so why should anyone accept it Would you please provide me with its history and how and why it was developed and by whom
Raj, we were trying to. But this is not the right thread for that. Basically the trinity was developed by the early church fathers, like Tertulian to explain why the bible says that Jesus is God and the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet they are distinct from each other as persons. And there is only ONE God. If the bible is true, then we have three persons that are shown to be ONE God. The result is the Trinity.

But your objection above does not mean the trinity is false. Jesus did not preach the Quran or much of what is in it, neither did Moses or any of the other prophets. By your reasoning, that means the Quran is false.

[ekklesias]

Raj, we were trying to. But this is not the right thread for that. Basically the trinity was developed by the early church fathers, like Tertulian to explain why the bible says that Jesus is God and the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet they are distinct from each other as persons. And there is only ONE God. If the bible is true, then we have three persons that are shown to be ONE God. The result is the Trinity.

But your objection above does not mean the trinity is false. Jesus did not preach the Quran or much of what is in it, neither did Moses or any of the other prophets. By your reasoning, that means the Quran is false.


I would just like to add that just because we might not be able to completly comprehend the trinity does not mean it isn't so, I still can't understand how a 9foot tall tomato plant comes out of that itty bitty seed but it does and God tells us in Isaiah 55:8-9

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."

One question along these lines--if we could truely understand and completly comprehend everything about God would He be worthy of our worship?

[jwkenne]

I would just like to add that...

I would just like to add that this thread was originally about Islam, Terrorism, and whether or not the Koran condones violence against the "infidel". Myself and others have quoted passages from the Koran and asked for Raj's interpretation, and somehow, like every other muslim that I have ever debated on the subject, he/she has turned the discussion from Islam to Christianity, without even trying to reconcile the problem passages of the Koran that were mentioned.

I mean, seriously, if this thread is going to continue (I thought it was dead), then can we at least come to a conclusion as to how you reconcile the mentioned passages, Raj??? No more asinine blanket statements about "reading in context".It would be very easy. You can cut and paste the passages from my post and the others, and just post your thoughts on them. Is that too much to ask?

[ekklesias]

I would just like to add that this thread was originally about Islam, Terrorism, and whether or not the Koran condones violence against the "infidel". Myself and others have quoted passages from the Koran and asked for Raj's interpretation, and somehow, like every other muslim that I have ever debated on the subject, he/she has turned the discussion from Islam to Christianity, without even trying to reconcile the problem passages of the Koran that were mentioned.

I mean, seriously, if this thread is going to continue (I thought it was dead), then can we at least come to a conclusion as to how you reconcile the mentioned passages, Raj??? No more asinine blanket statements about "reading in context".It would be very easy. You can cut and paste the passages from my post and the others, and just post your thoughts on them. Is that too much to ask?


How very true. Direct, honest answers would be a welcome change. I posed a ? very early in this thread asking if we could just pick and choose what the prophets said that we believe, for they consider Jesus a prophet but do not accept all of His words. How do you reconcile this descrepency in beliefs? I was not answered either.

[raj215]

No, I asked you if it could be applied today, which you still have not answered. Strike one...No lie there



Yet you fail to provide this supposed information. Strike two...no lie there



How can my asking a question be a lie? You must not understand the English language very well. And you draw a false parallel to boot. Theologyweb includes Muslims, as this forum proves. I showed you in my simple analogy what I was talking about. Guess it was too far over your head, so I'll drop the request as you probably have to run off to your teacher to ask for an answer. But there was no lie because I asked a simple question. Strike 3... and you lose again!

Actually, this is kind of fun, so I'll hang out as long as you want to play the little "no answer" game. I'll make it simple for you. Don't respond to anything else I say until you give me a yes or no.

Can a faithful Muslim use the verse of the sword today to retaliate against someone for breaking an oath?
I think you need to check the dictionary for the definition of the meaning of the word lie, you called me one, but you have not showned as of yet a lie that I have tole, so that makes you the lier. checkmate!!!
:eek:
The answer to your question is no

[Bill the Cat]

I think you need to check the dictionary for the definition of the meaning of the word lie, surely....

www.dictionary.com

lie
n.
A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

v. lied, ly·ing, (lng) lies
v. intr.
To present false information with the intention of deceiving.
To convey a false image or impression: Appearances often lie.

Got that clear?


you called me one, but you have not showned as of yet a lie that I have tole,

First of all, it is TOLD not tole... and shown not showned... :dots:

Second, I provided lots of information, cited post numbers, and even the quotes you directly made. You said in your very own words. I'll post it one more time

OK, let's look at your version of respect...

Post #3, instead of interacting with George you smugly brushed him aside with this little gem:
I do not know where you are getting your infornation but if you are ready to discuss islam and is teachings, let me know

Post #27 you deftly responded:
I hope you dont think you are trying to make me or islam look bad by your dumb comment.

You did good for a while until post#74 when you responded to George:
Your remark is not even worth responding to :stupid::stupid::stupid::stupid::stupid:

I won't even get into your rudeness with me except the Jim Jones comment. You know dip about Jim Jones or the devastation he caused in Guyana. My former pastor is a missionary there now in Georgetown and I talk to him and his wife weekly. They see every day the devastation Jim Jones caused that entire nation. To compare me to someone who forced his followers to commit suicide and who devastated an entire country for decades after is one of the highest insults. You should be ashamed of yourself!!


Not sure what your definition of rude is, but since you seem to be so in love with the dictionary,

rude ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rd)
adj. rud·er, rud·est
3. Ill-mannered; discourteous: rude behavior.


Now, in my world and the world of 99% of America, calling someone stupid is considered rude. Equating someone to a mass murderer is rude. Calling someone's comment dumb is rude. You said directly in your previous post


that person should read the post and see i have always been respectful in my address,

You said you were ALWAYS respectful, I showed you to be ill-mannered and discourteous with your own responses. you said you were respctful, but proved to be not. That, by definition is a lie.


so that makes you the lier. checkmate!!!
:eek:

:tomato: clean the tomato off you before you try to avoid your words...


The answer to your question is no

And on what authority do you answer no? Your own interpretation? Seems to me that other Muslims would disagree, as well as former Muslims I have had the honor of interacting with.

[Faramir]

Lets try to keep the debate, well….a debate. Accusations and counter-accusations about lying only detract from the substantive debate. Such accusations belong in the Locker Room, and all future accusations should be posted in a new thread in the Locker Room. Posting an additional accusation and/or response to an accusation will have the same result. That is the post will be moved to a new thread in the Locker Room. So, do me a favor and post any such threads in Locker Room voluntarily. Don’t make me move the post for you.



Thanks,



Faramir.

[Krusader]

surely....

www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com/)

lie
n.
A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

v. lied, ly·ing, (lng) lies
v. intr.
To present false information with the intention of deceiving.
To convey a false image or impression: Appearances often lie.

Got that clear?



First of all, it is TOLD not tole... and shown not showned... :dots:

Second, I provided lots of information, cited post numbers, and even the quotes you directly made. You said in your very own words. I'll post it one more time

OK, let's look at your version of respect...

Post #3, instead of interacting with George you smugly brushed him aside with this little gem:
I do not know where you are getting your infornation but if you are ready to discuss islam and is teachings, let me know

Post #27 you deftly responded:
I hope you dont think you are trying to make me or islam look bad by your dumb comment.

You did good for a while until post#74 when you responded to George:
Your remark is not even worth responding to :stupid::stupid::stupid::stupid::stupid:

I won't even get into your rudeness with me except the Jim Jones comment. You know dip about Jim Jones or the devastation he caused in Guyana. My former pastor is a missionary there now in Georgetown and I talk to him and his wife weekly. They see every day the devastation Jim Jones caused that entire nation. To compare me to someone who forced his followers to commit suicide and who devastated an entire country for decades after is one of the highest insults. You should be ashamed of yourself!!

Not sure what your definition of rude is, but since you seem to be so in love with the dictionary,

rude ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rd)
adj. rud·er, rud·est
3. Ill-mannered; discourteous: rude behavior.


Now, in my world and the world of 99% of America, calling someone stupid is considered rude. Equating someone to a mass murderer is rude. Calling someone's comment dumb is rude. You said directly in your previous post



You said you were ALWAYS respectful, I showed you to be ill-mannered and discourteous with your own responses. you said you were respctful, but proved to be not. That, by definition is a lie.



:tomato: clean the tomato off you before you try to avoid your words...



And on what authority do you answer no? Your own interpretation? Seems to me that other Muslims would disagree, as well as former Muslims I have had the honor of interacting with.
And, getting back to the original theme of this thread, the following website lists All the vss. in the Quran regarding jihad and fighting against infidels, etc. I believe that one would be hardpressed to avoid the conclusion that Islam is a religious belief system built on the foundation of Mohammed's call for violence against those who did not embrace him as prophet:

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html

This material does not appear to be copyrighted.

[Sparko]

Crusader (and others), even if material is not copyrighted, dont just post a web link.

The proper way to give information from other sources is to post an excerpt of the RELEVANT information, a snippet if you will. And then post the source reference and the link if it is needed.

That way people can follow the conversation without having to click on the web link, and you are not just posting huge chunks of irrelevant information, copyrighted or not.

So,

1. Dont post entire articles, copyrighted or not.
2. Dont just post links alone to material - copyrighted or not.
3. If you do post a snippet from some other source, please post the reference or link to the rest of the info.
4. Just use the snippet as part of your argument, not the entire argument.

an example would be:
"Well, I think that blah, blah blah, means that blah, blah, is completely blah blah. One of the reasons I think blah blah is this:

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah (one or two paragraphs of relevent blah blahs) - Ref: The book of Blah, page 2. You can read the rest of the article at wwwblahblahcom


So, you see, this proves that blah blah is really blah. Not to mention that if you take two blahs and multiply them by a blah you get three times as many blahs."

You can do the cite boxes by putting cite tags around the sited text

text text text

So, just use a reasonable ammount of quoted text from some other source. The exception to this rule is if you start a thread to discuss a specific article, then you can quote the whole article in the opening post (still have to post the copyright notice and reference)

[Krusader]

Terrorism in Ireland and Colombia is not motivated by religion. Global terrorism performed by Muslims is motivated by religion.
Just for the record IRA "terrorists" nearly always called ahead to authorities to reveal where a new attack was to occur. Nobody, as far as I know, called the World Trade Center on 9/11, or the Pentagon.

[Jude3b]

How very true. Direct, honest answers would be a welcome change. I posed a ? very early in this thread asking if we could just pick and choose what the prophets said that we believe, for they consider Jesus a prophet but do not accept all of His words. How do you reconcile this descrepency in beliefs? I was not answered either.

Dear ekklesias:

Islam is ANTI-CHIRST and it does not believe what Jesus Christ said, despite the fact that they give lip service to Him being a prophet.

Muslims are wrong about Christ. On many occasions in the New Testament Jesus predicted both His death and His resurrection. For example, He told His disciples, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life" (Luke 9:22). After His resurrection He told His disciples that this was to fulfill the prophecies written about Him: (see Luke 24:44, 46, 46).

[Krusader]

Also, Jude 3b, Muslims believe that the Gospel was somehow "lost" or "distorted" beyond recognition. They make this statement with no proof whatsoever. For this reason, the so-called "prophet" Mohammed could put any words he wanted in our Lord's mouth and justify them by simply stating that Christians have no knowledge or undertanding of the Lord Jesus. Very convenient!

[raj215]

No, I asked you if it could be applied today, which you still have not answered. Strike one...No lie there



Yet you fail to provide this supposed information. Strike two...no lie there



How can my asking a question be a lie? You must not understand the English language very well. And you draw a false parallel to boot. Theologyweb includes Muslims, as this forum proves. I showed you in my simple analogy what I was talking about. Guess it was too far over your head, so I'll drop the request as you probably have to run off to your teacher to ask for an answer. But there was no lie because I asked a simple question. Strike 3... and you lose again!

Actually, this is kind of fun, so I'll hang out as long as you want to play the little "no answer" game. I'll make it simple for you. Don't respond to anything else I say until you give me a yes or no.

Can a faithful Muslim use the verse of the sword today to retaliate against someone for breaking an oath? This is the second time I have answered this question NO. Do not focus on oath breaking, focus on being the first one being attacted which was done by the pagans who attacted the muslims and ran them from mecca and killed them every chance they had. Why do you not read down a little further in the verse and it will answer your question. I have never tried to concience any of you concerning the validity of islam or its prophet. The Longivity of the religion speakes for itself along with its one billion followers

[Bill the Cat]

And the Muslim terrorists see Americans as having attacked them first, justifying their killing us on Sept 11 by using this very thing you say I don't understand. I really don't care what the historical context was because I am not the one who used it. The fact is that the Muslims who flew the planes into the WTC and the pentagon were using these very verses to justify their actions. Just because you do not agree with their justification, does not mean they were wrong for using it as their reason.

[Krusader]

This is the second time I have answered this question NO. Do not focus on oath breaking, focus on being the first one being attacted which was done by the pagans who attacted the muslims and ran them from mecca and killed them every chance they had. Why do you not read down a little further in the verse and it will answer your question. I have never tried to concience any of you concerning the validity of islam or its prophet. The Longivity of the religion speakes for itself along with its one billion followers
If the longevity of a religion justifies its teachings, then surely we should all be practicing witchcraft!

[Jude3b]

Also, Jude 3b, Muslims believe that the Gospel was somehow "lost" or "distorted" beyond recognition. They make this statement with no proof whatsoever. For this reason, the so-called "prophet" Mohammed could put any words he wanted in our Lord's mouth and justify them by simply stating that Christians have no knowledge or undertanding of the Lord Jesus. Very convenient!

Crusader:

I'm getting the impression that Joseph Smith was just small time compared to this Mohammed "so-called prophet"!

How can nearly a billion people be so deceived?

[Krusader]

Crusader:

I'm getting the impression that Joseph Smith was just small time compared to this Mohammed "so-called prophet"!

How can nearly a billion people be so deceived?
How can billions be deceived? I think the Scripture states that the devil has blinded the eyes of many, and caused them to believe a lie. It is only by the grace of the Holy Spirit that we, ourselves, have had the scales lifted from our own eyes and been given the grace necessary to believe.

[ekklesias]

Dear ekklesias:

Islam is ANTI-CHIRST and it does not believe what Jesus Christ said, despite the fact that they give lip service to Him being a prophet.

Muslims are wrong about Christ. On many occasions in the New Testament Jesus predicted both His death and His resurrection. For example, He told His disciples, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life" (Luke 9:22). After His resurrection He told His disciples that this was to fulfill the prophecies written about Him: (see Luke 24:44, 46, 46).


Yes I know this. I was curious as to what a Muslim would have to say about this. And he didn't answer me. Hmmmm.

[Jude3b]

How can billions be deceived? I think the Scripture states that the devil has blinded the eyes of many, and caused them to believe a lie. It is only by the grace of the Holy Spirit that we, ourselves, have had the scales lifted from our own eyes and been given the grace necessary to believe.

That is so true! God help me to remember this fact, in Jesus' name. Amen.

[heaven]

And the Muslim terrorists see Americans as having attacked them first, justifying their killing us on Sept 11 by using this very thing you say I don't understand. I really don't care what the historical context was because I am not the one who used it. The fact is that the Muslims who flew the planes into the WTC and the pentagon were using these very verses to justify their actions. Just because you do not agree with their justification, does not mean they were wrong for using it as their reason.

DEar Muslims:

Why do you say that the crusades justified 9/11. That is like saying that

we should bomb the arab nation because the moslems murdered when

invading Spain. The time frame makes non justification.:wink: