James And Paul...

[seer]

Again...

Romans 4:

What then shall we say about Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. So also David pronounces a blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not reckon his sin."

James 2:

What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Paul clearly says that a faith without works saves. James says that faith alone can not save. That even Abraham's great faith needed works to be complete and to justify him. I personally can not reconcile the two - can you?

[Tercel]

My best guess is that James is defending Paul's writings against those who have misinterpreted him.

Paul has claimed that "faith" (by which I am convinced Paul means "devotion to God") is what justifies - that being accounted one of God's people (justification) is based on the heart, and isn't by birth as a Jew nor by performing some set works.

The word "faith" is pretty ambiguous in Greek and could be potentially taken to mean something like "belief". So some people may have misunderstood Paul as saying that all we have to do to be justified is have a very shallow belief in the existence of God.

James critiques this position, by arguing that such "faith" is useless and that even the demons have that sort of "faith". (I am pretty certain that Paul wouldn't agree the demons had "faith", which seems to show James is using a different meaning of "faith" to Paul) He then picks the same example of Abraham as Paul uses in Romans (which agrees with the idea he is defending Paul's ideas against distortion), and shows how Abraham's "faith" and deeds were complementary, thus shooting down those who want to twist faith into something purely intellectual or some kind of vague uncommitted good will and rather showing that what is needed is full devotion from the heart.

[Berean Todd]

Again...

Romans 4:

What then shall we say about Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. So also David pronounces a blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not reckon his sin."

James 2:

What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

Paul clearly says that a faith without works saves. James says that faith alone can not save. That even Abraham's great faith needed works to be complete and to justify him. I personally can not reconcile the two - can you?
I have no problem with it at all, you just have to look at the context. Paul is writting to people with the earthly perspective - he's saying "look, nothing you can do will earn your way to heaven, salvation is not of you. It's of God, you just put your faith in Him."

James is taking the heavenly view, he's saying "if you say that you have faith but you don't have works, then your faith is not real. Faith will bear fruit, works follow faith."

But, even Paul says this. Go to one of the most celebrated Pauline faith-only scriptures to see it.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

A beautiful passage of faith only. Now however, don't take it out of context, but rather keep reading to the very next verse:

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

You see, Paul also teaches that we will have works that follow our faith. From earthly perspective we are saved by that faith and faith alone. From the heavenly perspective, if that faith is not one which produces works, then it was never faith in the first place.

Faith is not belief; even demons belief. Faith is not merely trust - though it does involve trust. Look at the Hebrew language, that of God's chosen people. They do not even have a word in their language for faith! The use faithfulness, because to them you cannot separate faith from faithfulness, and with God it is the same. Faith will produce faithfulness, faithfulness to do what we have been called to do, to take up our crosses and follow Christ, to bear fruit, to go out into the fields that are white unto harvest.

[Berean Todd]

My best guess is that James is defending Paul's writings against those who have misinterpreted him.
Yes, if you look at the context too, James was writting to a people who were being taken over by a licentiousness. He was trying to make the point that, yes we are saved by faith, but what faith do you have? If your faith is not producing works it is not a faith at all. He was attacking their liberal, permissive behaviors in effect.

We can never forget that these letters were not written directly to us, we are in effect, reading someone else's mail, and to properly interpret scripture we have to take into account the original author's intent in writting to the original audience as well.

[RoadRunner]

Paul clearly says that a faith without works saves. James says that faith alone can not save. That even Abraham's great faith needed works to be complete and to justify him. I personally can not reconcile the two - can you?

They are each using the terms differently:

1) The faith that St. Paul talks about is the faith that works by love. The faith that St. James mentions is intellectual assent to theological truth.

2) The works that St. Paul talks about are the works of the Mosaic Law i.e. circumcision, animal sacrifices, dietary restrictions, etc. The works that St. James mentions are good works performed with God's grace.

[Ormly]

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.What no one ever seems to pick up on that is put forth in the above verse is that, as Paul stated: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me". Galatians 2:20 This is a very 'glossed over verse' by the reformed and orthodox. It is especially glossed over and manipulated by the Glitz TV Charismatics. Not to understand what Paul is saying potentially heaps condemnation on those who are told they don't enough faith. That sickens me. Condemnation leads to discouragement and then to despair. That is Satan's way.

If we are born again we take into ourselves the very life of Christ per Jn.20.22. It is now His Faith that Father wants to see exercised by us since it is His Son's life He is looking for to see in us; His Son's Faith who had the Mind of God and was one with His Father... It is now the ONLY Faith that will be pleasing to Him by the works it produces in and from our flesh, i.e., the purifying of our soul. James says: You have Christ? Show me yours works that you are able to testify of Him being in you --- "Put up or shut up", James is saying. Father is not looking for our faith but the Faith of His Son who lives in us! Does He live in us 24-7? It's our responsibility to make sure He does. The works from me will be seen as evidence ...as I learn to abide in Him and "by this shall all men know you are my Disciples..."

A simple yet perfect example of that Faith and reward that says that "...faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". Hebrews 11:1 .....is shown by the Disciples in reality receiving His life in Jn 20.22 and then exercising the faith of that "real life" when actually instructed by Jesus to wait in Jerusalem for the Promise of the Father per Acts 2: "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance". We know that approx. 500 followers were told to wait but only 120 obeyed those instructions, by faith. 120 pleased God while 380 didn't.

If understood this will clear up a lot of error in regards to the Christian walk, work, and how it is to be accomplished. Neither can be separated and be of God. See Jn. 17

[geebob]

Paul clearly says that a faith without works saves. James says that faith alone can not save. That even Abraham's great faith needed works to be complete and to justify him. I personally can not reconcile the two - can you?

2 things. When Paul spoke of works, he was speaking not of just doing things. He was not speaking of mere effort and initiative as implyed by an excessive lutheran interpretation that we have been struggling with.

Modern scholarship has found that such a view, that works as interpreted as mere legalism and effort really doesn't fit the historical context of Paul at all. His opponents weren't saying that you had to earn your way to heaven. What they really believed was that those of the faithful, the people of God, the beneficiary's of grace were identified by through Jewish decent and the mosaic law. So if you weren't a Jew and you wanted to follow Jesus, you had to get circumsized, keep kosher, and so on. You had to do works. What kind of works? good works? kind deeds? No. Works of the law. And did that save you? No, it identified you as one of the beneficiaries of God's grace. It identified you as one of the faithful. That was paul's oponent, and if you don't appreciate his opponent, you won't fully appreciate Paul.

Paul instead says that because of what Jesus did, we no longer are brought into the people of God through the Mosaic covenant but in the pattern of an older covenant, the Abrahamic one. God recognized the faith, the trust of Abraham and that is how he will now recon us as his children.

And what is the nature of faith? I called it trust. we to often associate it with mere belief, mere consent to believing that certain propositions are true about some man called Jesus. No, it's trust. It's not enough to recognize that certain propositions about Jesus are true. If you don't follow him, if you don't act on that trust, is it really trust? No.

I'm geussing that the audience of James made the same mistake that we protestants have made assuming that work is effort and faith/belief is mere consent to the truth of propositions.

[smaller]

Paul knew that men had sin indwelling them and evil present with them in their "flesh." Paul knew that the "carnal man" IS a slave of sin.

Paul did not equate himself with that "sin indwelling." He called "sin indwelling" NO LONGER I twice in Romans 7, and stated that he had evil present whenever he desired to do good.

It is undeniable that Jesus spoke to "entities" in mankind that were not the same as them. He spoke to demons in men nearly continually during His Ministry and cast them out (sometimes) and commanded them (sometimes) and even told them not to disclose who He was.

It is also undeniable that Jesus spoke to satan in Peter and satan in Judas. Jesus also spoke to devils in the Pharisees when He called them "children of."

When The Word speaks to any man, it really speaks to one of THREE potential separate and distinct identities. The Word may be speaking to that which INDWELLS YOUR FLESH (sin and evil as the produce of the devil) It may speak to YOU as a carnal slave of sin, or it may speak to you as ONE WHO SEES in and through Jesus Christ according to proper divisions.

[Ormly]

It is also undeniable that Jesus spoke to satan in Peter and satan in Judas. Jesus also spoke to devils in the Pharisees when He called them "children of."


Utter nonsense! To make that mean that is to declare Peter possessed of Satan. Peter wasn't, that's what is undenialable. And if he wasn't neither was Judas --- until Judas crossed over the line.

[seer]

They are each using the terms differently:

1) The faith that St. Paul talks about is the faith that works by love. The faith that St. James mentions is intellectual assent to theological truth.

2) The works that St. Paul talks about are the works of the Mosaic Law i.e. circumcision, animal sacrifices, dietary restrictions, etc. The works that St. James mentions are good works performed with God's grace.

Well no, the faith of Romans 4 does not work. As a matter of fact it is apart from works.

To put Romans 4 in your context it would read:

"Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. And to one who DOES NOT WORK but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH THAT WORKS LOVE is reckoned as righteousness.

It does not make sense.

[seer]

Yes, if you look at the context too, James was writting to a people who were being taken over by a licentiousness. He was trying to make the point that, yes we are saved by faith, but what faith do you have? If your faith is not producing works it is not a faith at all. He was attacking their liberal, permissive behaviors in effect.

We can never forget that these letters were not written directly to us, we are in effect, reading someone else's mail, and to properly interpret scripture we have to take into account the original author's intent in writting to the original audience as well.

But that counters Paul. Because Paul says the faith that saves is a faith that DOES NOT WORK.

[seer]

James is taking the heavenly view, he's saying "if you say that you have faith but you don't have works, then your faith is not real. Faith will bear fruit, works follow faith."

That is not what James is saying at all, again:

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can faith save him?"

Faith in and of it's self can not save.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works."

Was Abraham's faith genuine? Was His faith enough to justify him? No...

[smaller]

Utter nonsense! To make that mean that is to declare Peter possessed of Satan. Peter wasn't, that's what is undenialable. And if he wasn't neither was Judas --- until Judas crossed over the line.

Certain facts are on the table Ormly.

It is a FACT that God's Word speaks to a mans physical face, YET SPEAKS TO SOMETHING ELSE that is IN men, as multiple examples in The Word clearly SHOW.

You mistake what is spoken by God's Word to what is IN MEN, as to the men they occupy. It's that simple.

Sin is of the devil.

ALL have sin.

None can say they "have" no sin regardless of the overt and apparent acts of sin.

[Ormly]

Certain facts are on the table Ormly.

It is a FACT that God's Word speaks to a mans physical face, YET SPEAKS TO SOMETHING ELSE that is IN men, as multiple examples in The Word clearly SHOW.

You mistake what is spoken by God's Word to what is IN MEN, as to the men they occupy. It's that simple.

Sin is of the devil.

ALL have sin.

None can say they "have" no sin regardless of the overt and apparent acts of sin.
Ok [but not really] Point to the sin in what Peter said.

[RoadRunner]

Well no, the faith of Romans 4 does not work. As a matter of fact it is apart from works.

To put Romans 4 in your context it would read:

"Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. And to one who DOES NOT WORK but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH THAT WORKS LOVE is reckoned as righteousness.

It does not make sense.

If the faith of Romans 4 is not faith that works by love, then how can St Paul say, (1 Cor 13:2)"although I have all the faith necessary to move mountains -- if I am without love, I am nothing?" Can "nothing" be justified?

The "one who works" and the "one who does not work" do not refer to doing "works in general" but to doing "works of the Law," primarily circumcision.

The thrust behind this verse is that St. Paul is saying that God freely (according to grace) credited righteousness to Abraham because of his faith, even though God had not YET entered into a covenant that would "obligate" Him to repay Abraham for honoring the conditions of the covenant by doing works of Law.

[seer]

If the faith of Romans 4 is not faith that works by love, then how can St Paul say, (1 Cor 13:2)"although I have all the faith necessary to move mountains -- if I am without love, I am nothing?" Can "nothing" be justified?

The "one who works" and the "one who does not work" do not refer to doing "works in general" but to doing "works of the Law," primarily circumcision.

The thrust behind this verse is that St. Paul is saying that God freely (according to grace) credited righteousness to Abraham because of his faith, even though God had not YET entered into a covenant that would "obligate" Him to repay Abraham for honoring the conditions of the covenant by doing works of Law.

Ok, let's try that.

"Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. And to one who DOES NOT DO THE WORK OF CIRCUMCISION BUT DOES THE WORK OF LOVE and trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH THAT WORKS LOVE is reckoned as righteousness.


"So also David pronounces a blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from THE WORK OF CIRCUMCISION, BUT INCLUDING THE WORK OF LOVE : "Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not reckon his sin - IF HE WORKS LOVE."

[RoadRunner]

Ok, let's try that.

"Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. And to one who DOES NOT DO THE WORK OF CIRCUMCISION BUT DOES THE WORK OF LOVE and trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH THAT WORKS LOVE is reckoned as righteousness.

Seer, "works" in this verse is shorthand for "works of the Law" and "faith" here cannot mean intellectual assent apart from love because it means nothing without it.

try this instead:

"Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Now to one who does works of the Law, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. And to one who does not do works of the Law but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his 'faith working through love' is reckoned as righteousness."

To reiterate: Paul is pointing out that God has not yet entered into the Covenant of the Law with Abraham when He credits him with righteousness because of his faith. The Covenant of the Law is a contract, initiated by God, whereby God binds Himself to do certain things and binds Abraham to do certain things as well ("works of the Law").

[Ormly]

You all aren't making proper distinctions. You're hung up on salvation. That's not the issue of James or Paul when speaking of faith and works.

[seer]

"Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Now to one who does works of the Law, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. And to one who does not do works of the Law but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his 'faith working through love' is reckoned as righteousness."

Paul makes not such distinction between the kinds of works. And to love God and to love your neighbor ARE works of the law. Christ said that they are in fact the WHOLE law.

So it should read]"Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Now to one who does works of PART Of the Law, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due. And to one who does not do works of the CERTAIN LAWS but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his 'faith working through SOME OF THE LAWS is reckoned as righteousness.'

[RoadRunner]

Paul makes not such distinction between the kinds of works.

St. Paul does not associate "good works" with "works of the Law". He both rails against "works of the law" in Romans but commends "good works" in other epistles:

Eph 2:10 - created in Christ Jesus for good works
1 Ti 5:10 - having a reputation for good works
1 Ti 6:18 - be rich in good works

And even in Romans also, St. Paul points to doing good as something that is desirable, Rom 2:7 - to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

It would be quite inconsistent of him to do both if he saw no distinction between the two.


And to love God and to love your neighbor ARE works of the law.

Now you are confusing the Law with "works of the Law." For St. Paul, "works of the Law" are not everything the Law commands, but only those ceremonial aspects of the law, like circumcision. They are Jewish religious markers. That's why St. Paul says the Judaizers act as if God were God of the Jews only; i.e., because they are insisting that Gentiles were obliged to do things God commanded only of Jews.


Christ said that they are in fact the WHOLE law.

Sure, the Law is summed up in "love God and neighbor" but Christ never said that that was a "work of the Law".

[smaller]

Ok [but not really] Point to the sin in what Peter said.

The "alternatives" are fairly easy here Ormly.

1.) Satan was both Peter and Judas

2.) Satan was a separate entity that "temporarily" controlled the mind/bodies of these men.

If it is the later (that would be #2,) then you have prima fascia evidence of other entities in men that are and were addressed BY THE WORD.

As this would apply to Mr. Seers appliction, one who DOES NOT LOVE remains "controlled by" the enemies of God. Hello.

[Berean Todd]

But that counters Paul. Because Paul says the faith that saves is a faith that DOES NOT WORK.
I'm sorry, I do not in any way see that as what Paul says. Paul is stating the basis for salvation, he is focusing in on the point of salvation, and saying "look you can not work your way to heaven, you only will get there through your faith." James is not disagreeing with that, he just widens the perspective and says "ok, you say you have faith - prove it! faith will be accompanied by works, and if it isn't your 'faith' can not save you."

[Ormly]

The "alternatives" are fairly easy here Ormly.

1.) Satan was both Peter and Judas

2.) Satan was a separate entity that "temporarily" controlled the mind/bodies of these men.

If it is the later (that would be #2,) then you have prima fascia evidence of other entities in men that are and were addressed BY THE WORD.

As this would apply to Mr. Seers appliction, one who DOES NOT LOVE remains "controlled by" the enemies of God. Hello.Where does one learn this tripe? Satan did what to Peter??!! .... I give up. Please don't bother with a respsonse.

[seer]

I'm sorry, I do not in any way see that as what Paul says. Paul is stating the basis for salvation, he is focusing in on the point of salvation, and saying "look you can not work your way to heaven, you only will get there through your faith." James is not disagreeing with that, he just widens the perspective and says "ok, you say you have faith - prove it! faith will be accompanied by works, and if it isn't your 'faith' can not save you."

Let me ask you something BT. Did Abraham have genuine faith? Was that faith enough to justify him - according to James?

In other words: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." What kind of faith is James speaking of here - genuine faith or false faith?

[smaller]

Where does one learn this tripe? Satan did what to Peter??!! .... I give up. Please don't bother with a respsonse.

Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan

Are you so blinded into the eternal judgement of others that you are not able to see these things IN MEN that are NOT MEN???

[Berean Todd]

Let me ask you something BT. Did Abraham have genuine faith? Was that faith enough to justify him - according to James?

In other words: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." What kind of faith is James speaking of here - genuine faith or false faith?
Yes, Abraham was justified by faith alone according to the Scriptures, but it was a faith that produced works. Gen says it was by faith Hebrews says Abraham was saved by faith, James is just explaining that the faith of Abraham was a faith that produced works, as any true faith will.

[seer]

Yes, Abraham was justified by faith alone according to the Scriptures, but it was a faith that produced works. Gen says it was by faith Hebrews says Abraham was saved by faith, James is just explaining that the faith of Abraham was a faith that produced works, as any true faith will.

BT, that is not what James says at all. It says that Abraham was justified by works. Not a faith that merely produced works.

Again: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

How should this read "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith that works alone."

In other words - is the faith in this passage genuine?

[Berean Todd]

BT, that is not what James says at all. It says that Abraham was justified by works. Not a faith that merely produced works.

Again: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

How should this read "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith that works alone."

In other words - is the faith in this passage genuine?
Genesis 15
4 Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir."
5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.


Romans 4
3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Here we are told, OT and NT that Abraham was saved by faith. Now look at a Hebrews passage:

Hebrews 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God ...
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;

Hebrews now says that all of those works that Abraham was doing, he was doing through faith. You have to judge the less clear portions of scripture by the more clear ones. Yes, our works prove our faith; or works show that our faith is a true one, and thus in a sense they "perfect" our faith as James said. But it is still the FAITH that saves, the FAITH that motivates. The works are the fruit, the faith is the tree.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.Just as Roadrunner said that James and Paul are using works in two different senses (I agree!), I think they are also are viewing two different aspects of justification:

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

The Scripture, that Paul refers to in his discussion of faith, was fulfilled. So I think James is looking at the moment when we become "mature, complete" (Jas. 1:4), "young men" who have overcome the evil one (1 Jn. 2:13), with real, solid righteousness (Jas. 2:23), and not just imputed righteousness (Rom. 4:3).

Just as we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved, similarly, justification is not just once, at conversion, we are justified with imputed righteousness at conversion, then we are justified further, when we are "done with sin" (1 Pt. 4:1, though not perfect, Jas. 3:2), and maybe verses such as these even indicate that we will be justified in the future, when we are made perfect, without sin:

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Romans 4:24 … but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness-- for us who believe in him …

2 Timothy 4:8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day...

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

Hebrews now says that all of those works that Abraham was doing, he was doing through faith. You have to judge the less clear portions of scripture by the more clear ones. Yes, our works prove our faith; or works show that our faith is a true one, and thus in a sense they "perfect" our faith as James said. But it is still the FAITH that saves, the FAITH that motivates. The works are the fruit, the faith is the tree.

BT, I know what those other proof texts suggest. But I'am saying that they can not be reconciled.

Look, I asked you this two times now and you have refused to answer:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Is the faith spoken of here genuine?

[Ormly]

Hebrews now says that all of those works that Abraham was doing, he was doing through faith. You have to judge the less clear portions of scripture by the more clear ones. Yes, our works prove our faith; or works show that our faith is a true one, and thus in a sense they "perfect" our faith as James said. But it is still the FAITH that saves, the FAITH that motivates. The works are the fruit, the faith is the tree.

BT, I know what those other proof texts suggest. But I'am saying that they can not be reconciled.

Look, I asked you this two times now and you have refused to answer:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Is the faith spoken of here genuine?
How would anyone know if one's faith is genuine?!

[seer]

How would anyone know if one's faith is genuine?!

Sure, by their fruit. But again, that is not what James is saying. He is saying that faith, even the faith of Abraham, is not enough to justify.

Again: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

How should this read:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by false faith alone."

Or

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by genuine faith alone."

[Ormly]

How would anyone know if one's faith is genuine?!

Sure, by their fruit. But again, that is not what James is saying. He is saying that faith, even the faith of Abraham, is not enough to justify.

Again: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

How should this read:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by false faith alone."

Or

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by genuine faith alone."Naah ...Surely you can do better than that? That's just the standard pat answer that is no answer. You should know better than that. Atheists do what the mainstream Christian does and passes himself off as one.

"He was such a good person. Too bad he wasn't a Christian"

[seer]

Naah ...Surely you can do better than that? That's just the standard pat answer that is no answer. You should know better than that. Atheists do what the mainstream Christian does and passes himself off as one.

"He was such a good person. Too bad he wasn't a Christian"

I noticed Ormly that NO one yet has answered the question:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Is the faith being spoken of here genuine or false? Come on guy - you are usually a straight shooter...

[Jezz]

Just picking up on a quick point:

Paul clearly says that a faith without works saves.
Gotta disagree with this. Paul never says this. The idea of faith existing without works was foreign to Paul. Faith - ie, being faithful to a person - is always accompanied by works.

[Ormly]

I noticed Ormly that NO one yet has answered the question:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Is the faith being spoken of here genuine or false? Come on guy - you are usually a straight shooter...Indeed, I wish to be acknowledged as a straight shooter and not one like so many here who's only desire is to play "one-upsmanship". This is always serious business with me.

Jezz is correct in stating what he did about the term 'works' but it needs to be defined as being something IN God and NOT something from ourselves as a Atheist is capable of and he gets the glory for. False modesty can even cover that up that he appear humble. In saying that our works must IN God of course I mean they are to be anchored in Him AND NOT FOR REWARD but because we LOVE HIM and wish only to express Him to the world. The reward in that will take care of itself. So many believe they are doing FOR God but do so from a faith of themselves and from their mind, that is not His Mind. They don't know Him that well. Most "Christians" don't know Him at all and can't know because they don't by the Faith OF Christ, who did had His Mind. He's the only one who does and prayed, in Jn 17, that we become one with Him. Can you see the intimacy in that that will produce the works pleasing to the Father? Now, James can make more sense when he speaks of faith and works.

This is why I've been pointing up the big difference between the faith we are to have anchored IN Christ that HIS FAITH be THE FAITH that is revealed to the world. It is to be HIS life in us that the world sees....and they do and hate us for it when seen. Just look how divided this counrty is in this election. Most think it has to do with Iraq and the economy. I've news for you..... It's about Jesus Christ. There's a "one world government" of satan soon coming and right now the USA is in the way of that happening.
There has never been a time in Christian history where he needs the whole armour of God and if he doesn't know what that entails, he'd better wake up and get his robes cleaned.

[seer]

Just picking up on a quick point:


Gotta disagree with this. Paul never says this. The idea of faith existing without works was foreign to Paul. Faith - ie, being faithful to a person - is always accompanied by works.


So we are justified by faith and works?

[seer]

Indeed, I wish to be acknowledged as a straight shooter and not one like so many here who's only desire is to play "one-upsmanship". This is always serious business with me.

Jezz is correct in stating what he did about the term 'works' but it needs to be defined as being something IN God and NOT something from ourselves as a Atheist is capable of and he gets the glory for. False modesty can even cover that up that he appear humble. In saying that our works must IN God of course I mean they are to be anchored in Him AND NOT FOR REWARD but because we LOVE HIM and wish only to express Him to the world. The reward in that will take care of itself. So many believe they are doing FOR God but do so from a faith of themselves and from their mind, that is not His Mind. They don't know Him that well. Most "Christians" don't know Him at all and can't know because they don't by the Faith OF Christ, who did had His Mind. He's the only one who does and prayed, in Jn 17, that we become one with Him. Can you see the intimacy in that that will produce the works pleasing to the Father? Now, James can make more sense when he speaks of faith and works.

This is why I've been pointing up the big difference between the faith we are to have anchored IN Christ that HIS FAITH be THE FAITH that is revealed to the world. It is to be HIS life in us that the world sees....and they do and hate us for it when seen. Just look how divided this counrty is in this election. Most think it has to do with Iraq and the economy. I've news for you..... It's about Jesus Christ. There's a "one world government" of satan soon coming and right now the USA is in the way of that happening.
There has never been a time in Christian history where he needs the whole armour of God and if he doesn't know what that entails, he'd better wake up and get his robes cleaned.

Ormly, I agree 100% about the division in this country. I don't want to point fingers and say I'am good and the liberals are bad. But they do have an irrational hate towards Bush that I believe is spiritual in nature.

NOW ORMLY ANSWER MY QUESTION! ; )

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Is the faith here genuine or false?

[Ormly]

You really need to ask a better question.


NOW ORMLY ANSWER MY QUESTION! ; )

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Is the faith here genuine or false?

A man's faith takes him to God and his works will demonstrate his faith. In this is man justified and found righteous. In the OT that's all he could be because Peace with God had not be accomplished by Jesus that justification could be complete unto total redemption. Man could be found sinless or blameless in his deeds but no cigar for coming into the presence of a Holy God since the trangression of Adam still hung over him and had to be dealt with by sinless blood.

In the NT it remains the same for those justisfied who never hear the gospel but, should they die before hearing it, their way is now completed for redemption because Jesus has been to the cross for them. He died for all men.

For those who hear gospel and respond unto Discipleship is the priviledge they alone will enjoy that is beyond the free gift of salvation. It is God's desire to have many son's brought into glory. That's why Jesus said: "Go make Disciples of the nations". How this is done is by the new birth experience and the subsequent training unto sonship. Works follow in the process of becoming because they will reveal the life of one who authors their faith and now that is the only faith that is pleasing to the Father, per James. It is His faith that will produce the works. So your works will reveal your Faith and whether or not it is OF Christ who had the Mind of His Father.

There. Alot of that is repeat but perhaps I wasn't clear the first five or six times.

If it is the faith of Christ, how can it not be genuine?

[seer]

It is His faith that will produce the works. So your works will reveal your Faith and whether or not it is OF Christ who had the Mind of His Father.

Ormly, that is not what James said. He said that faith is not enought. Not that faith will produce good works. This is why my question - which EVERYBODY has so far avoided - is so important.

So let me try again:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Is the faith spoken of here genuine faith or false faith? Could you please give a direct answer this time? ; )

[smaller]

seer

You have avoided the inevitable conclusion to your own question for the YEARS that I have known you.

Faith WORKS through LOVE.

When a man has NO FAITH they remain a SLAVE OF DARKNESS.

Evidence of SLAVESHIP and DARKNESS is to condemn ANY person to eternal torture, annihilation, or separation from God.

Faith does not SAVE ONE FROM GOD. This notion of faith saving one from God is ABSURDITY.

Faith FREES a person from DARKNESS and SLAVESHIP.

Without the "evidence" you remain A SLAVE. Does this mean that God will annihilate THE CAPTIVES of darkness???

No. He will eradicate THE DARKNESS, just as He has done already in this life for SOME.

[Ormly]

Ormly, that is not what James said. He said that faith is not enought. Not that faith will produce good works. This is why my question - which EVERYBODY has so far avoided - is so important.

So let me try again:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Is the faith spoken of here genuine faith or false faith? Could you please give a direct answer this time? ; )Do you or anyone honestly believe that in possessing the life of Christ He will not produce works from Himself --- from us? Is that not the gauge that should be used as the testimony of His life within us? Works from Him, from us who possess Him go hand in hand with His faith we live by because it is His faith from His life. In this can be seen our intimacy with the Father. Intimacy speaks of trust. Father trusts the life of His Son within us. It is our responsibilty to protect His life within us. Our works will reveal His faith in His Father ---- we express that faith by our works..

Can you not see "justisfication" in this?

[lee_merrill]

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Is the faith being spoken of here genuine or false?
Genuine! And in the second sense of justification, when people have real character, and real righteousness (not just imputed righteousness), works are in the picture, works "done through God" (Jn. 3:21), and again, this is a different sense of "works" than what Paul means.

Blessings,
Lee

[Ormly]

Genuine! And in the second sense of justification, when people have real character, and real righteousness (not just imputed righteousness), works are in the picture, works "done through God" (Jn. 3:21), and again, this is a different sense of "works" than what Paul means.

Blessings,
LeeYou are totally without distinctions in this and very confusing.

What do you mean by: "The second sense of justification", "Not just imputed righteousness", "works done through God"? Good night shirt, how does one figure out all that?! Did you get all that from reading Pink, Piper, Sproul, MacAuthor or Mcgee?

[seer]

Do you or anyone honestly believe that in possessing the life of Christ He will not produce works from Himself --- from us? Is that not the gauge that should be used as the testimony of His life within us? Works from Him, from us who possess Him go hand in hand with His faith we live by because it is His faith from His life. In this can be seen our intimacy with the Father. Intimacy speaks of trust. Father trusts the life of His Son within us. It is our responsibilty to protect His life within us. Our works will reveal His faith in His Father ---- we express that faith by our works..

Can you not see "justisfication" in this?

Sheesh Ormly - it's like pulling teeth with you guys! ; )

One more time!

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Is the faith spoken of here genuine or false?

[Ormly]

Sheesh Ormly - it's like pulling teeth with you guys! ; )

One more time!

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Is the faith spoken of here genuine or false?
Listen, I gave you my answer. I gave you what I wanted to give you because it fits more precisely the issue of Justisfication by faith that is supported by works. You don't even bother to referrence my remarks but continue to assert your complaint. I don't understand that and concluded awhile back that it was a loaded question to begin with that didn't address the real issue of the matter of works and faith.

So again you ask is it genuine faith and again I state that "how can it otherwise if it is the faith of Christ?"

Now will you address that, please? In doing so I believe you will find your answer.

[RoadRunner]

Sheesh Ormly - it's like pulling teeth with you guys! ; )

One more time!

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Is the faith spoken of here genuine or false?
Genuine.

[Ormly]

Genuine.prove it. For that matter, prove justification. This is not a loaded question. There is scripture that can prove it.

[RoadRunner]

prove it.
James 2:19

For that matter, prove justification. This is not a loaded question. There is scripture that can prove it.
Not sure what your asking for here.

[Ormly]

James 2:19James 2:19 (NASB-U)
You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

Huh?? I asked you to prove "genuine". I don't believe you can from yourself unless other things are happening in your life that challenge the genuiness of your faith.

Not sure what your asking for here.Oh? First off what is justification? and second, are you following the instructions that satisfy you being justified?? I personally don't believe many here have a clue about that means after being born again. So: "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?" 2 Cor. 13:5 (NASB-U)

[RoadRunner]

James 2:19 (NASB-U)
You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

Huh?? I asked you to prove "genuine". I don't believe you can from yourself unless other things are happening in your life that challenge the genuiness of your faith.
Your asking me to prove that my personal faith is genuine? I thought you were asking me to prove that the faith in the verse was genuine as opposed to false as per the question Seer asked.

Oh? First off what is justification? and second, are you following the instructions that satisfy you being justified?? I personally don't believe many here have a clue about that means after being born again. So: "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?" 2 Cor. 13:5 (NASB-U)
1st question: Justification is (as the Council of Trent states) - A translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.
2nd question: Yes although I do fail at times.

[seer]

Listen, I gave you my answer. I gave you what I wanted to give you because it fits more precisely the issue of Justisfication by faith that is supported by works. You don't even bother to referrence my remarks but continue to assert your complaint. I don't understand that and concluded awhile back that it was a loaded question to begin with that didn't address the real issue of the matter of works and faith.

So again you ask is it genuine faith and again I state that "how can it otherwise if it is the faith of Christ?"

Now will you address that, please? In doing so I believe you will find your answer.

So James is speaking of genuine faith. Good so here is where that leaves us:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by genuine faith alone."

So even genuine faith is not enough to justify. Works are also necessary.

[Ormly]

So James is speaking of genuine faith. Good so here is where that leaves us:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by genuine faith alone."

So even genuine faith is not enough to justify. Works are also necessary.Please don't twist my words. James is speaking OF the faith Christ or is it your own that you think satisfies God when you do work for Him. How you do know you are not presumptuous and interfering with God when you say you'll do this or you'll do that? Do you have His Mind in the matter? The results of your work will reveal it.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

What do you mean by: "The second sense of justification"...Declared righteous, first sense: Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, we are viewed in God's sight as righteous, though he also knows we still struggle with sin.

Second sense: We reach "maturity, completeness, perfection" (though still not sinlessness), by victory over sin, as in 1 Jn. 2:13 and 1 Pt. 4:1, we are again "declared righteous," now because we have real godly character, which I think happened to Abraham, when he offered his son.

Third sense: We are made perfect in glory, declared righteous again, because indeed, we are.

"Not just imputed righteousness", "works done through God"? Imputed righteousness is indeed a well-known concept, as is "works done through God," that second phrase is a direct Scripture quote, even...

If you are saved, it is by the righteousness of Christ, through his atonement, his making a sacrifice for sin: his righteousness must be imputed to you, otherwise you cannot be saved.

What true Christian ever called good works our own works? Does not scripture say, "it is God who worketh in us, both to will, and to do?" Now if your faith may be called good and saving, because it is God’s gift, and power within you; then a Christian’s works may be called good and saving, or such as work out his salvation, because they are all wrought in God, and by his power working in him.

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

Please don't twist my words. James is speaking OF the faith Christ or is it your own that you think satisfies God when you do work for Him. How you do know you are not presumptuous and interfering with God when you say you'll do this or you'll do that? Do you have His Mind in the matter? The results of your work will reveal it.

Ormly buddy. I'am not trying to do anything except to get a straight answer:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Is the above faith that James speaks of genuine or not? Why won't anybody answer this honestly?

[Ormly]

Ormly buddy. I'am not trying to do anything except to get a straight answer:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Is the above faith that James speaks of genuine or not? Why won't anybody answer this honestly?I am answering it honestly. You are not seeing James that you ask the proper question.

You fail to understand that in either case, "faith" your's or Christ', that works are to follow that speak of that faith. Works, by themselves, without faith is dead. Faith without works to support or testify of that faith is no faith at all. Suppose the woman with the issue who needed healing and faith to believe Jesus could do it --- but she didn't go to Him. What good wouldn her faith have been? Would she have been healed? I don't think so. Do you?

[seer]

Faith without works to support or testify of that faith is no faith at all.

Again you are avoiding the question.

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Is the above genuine faith or not. Why can't you give a direct answer?

[Ormly]

I'm seeing this now, as a joke.

Please, no more.

[seer]

I'm seeing this now, as a joke.

Please, no more.

It's not a joke. If you would answer my simple question you will see that James and Paul can not be reconciled. Of course that is why you won't answer... You know your argument will fail.

But that's ok, we all have our blind spots...

[Ormly]

It's not a joke. If you would answer my simple question you will see that James and Paul can not be reconciled. Of course that is why you won't answer... You know your argument will fail.

But that's ok, we all have our blind spots...Sorry but my argument, from the way I presented it, will never fail. It is you who can't see it in that light. But there is a reason for it and it is this:

Romans 8:5 (NASB-U)
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
1 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. Cor. 2:14 (NASB-U)

I strive to dwell in the Spiritual environment of the issues. I believe this is where the answers are to be found that we mature, not from the intellect. This is why we're having this problem. Sorry if I don't see it quite like you but, based on what you've asked and how you've asked it, I understand.

[seer]

Sorry but my argument, from the way I presented it, will never fail. It is you who can't see it in that light. But there is a reason for it and it is this:

Romans 8:5 (NASB-U)
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
1 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. Cor. 2:14 (NASB-U)

I strive to dwell in the Spiritual environment of the issues. I believe this is where the answers are to be found that we mature, not from the intellect. This is why we're having this problem. Sorry if I don't see it quite like you but, based on what you've asked and how you've asked it, I understand.

No doubt, you are super spiritual and I'am a dog. Be that as it may Ormly let the readers know that you have refused to give me a direct answer...

[Ormly]

No doubt, you are super spiritual and I'am a dog. Be that as it may Ormly let the readers know that you have refused to give me a direct answer...But I haven't. You have failed to make proper application of what I submitted with all sincerity choosing instead to pick the perverbial fly dirt out of the pepper. What ever reasoning you attribute to Paul in Romans that you believe might be at odds with James must be reconciled with what he stated in Galations, in particular, 2.20. When you see that correctly you will begin to see the distinctions he makes that will help you.

[Jezz]

So we are justified by faith and works?
I would put it more precisely, and say that we are justified by works of faith. The type of works that Paul is talking about are faithless works - works that are done for the regard of the letter of the law only, and not the Spirit (see 2 Corinthians 3). It's the theme of hypocrisy found throughout the Bible, recast into different words. A person is not justified by doing works because they are required of him. He is justified when he is internally transformed so that he does the works because he wants to. He follows the Spirit, not the letter. The law is written on his heart, not in ink on paper.

An example: In the incident where Christ was telling the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10, from memory), the Pharisee who queries Jesus is trying to find out what the bear minimum checklist is in order to obey the command "love your neighbour". The Pharisee wants to know who qualifies as his neighbour in a legal sense, so that he can be sure that he can keep the law to the letter. For example, if Christ said "your neighbour is any person who lives within a 1 mile radius of your place of residence", then the Pharisee could have made sure to be nice to all those people, and not care about anyone else. In short, the Pharisee was concerned with the letter of the law - not its Spirit.

Christblew away this notion by telling the parable of the Good Samaritan. The point of his parable was to show that the Pharisee was approaching the Law in the wrong way - he was so busy focussing on the technicalities (ie, the letter of the Law) that he failed to heed the Spirit.

Christ made several similar statements in His ministry, where people were concerned with the letter, and He instead guided them towards its Spirit. A great example is the Sermon on the Mount. There are several examples there where Christ follows the formula: "You have heard it said A, but I say B". In "A" Christ gives the letter of the law, and then in "B" He goes on to explain its Spirit. Another example is the argument on divorce - the Shammai (sp?) and Hillel schools were arguing over the letter of the law, and Christ solves the argument by appealling to its Spirit.

I think in the whole "works righteousness" thing, Paul is combatting people who behave like these legalists. They see the Law as a checklist - a list of things that you get ticked off, and if you get them all ticked off then you are "righteous". Paul is trying to say that that approach is wrong. It is not the works themselves that are important, but the attitude in your heart. The Law is merely a pointer to something beyond it - the Spirit of the law (ie, the Holy Spirit). And it is following this Spirit (by doing His will) that matters - not following some lifeless, written code.

When Paul says we are not justified by works, what he means (IMO) is that, apart from faith, works are useless. Doing the right things for the wrong reasons does not justify a man in God's sight. It is faith - doing the right things for the right reasons - that justifies a man in God's sight.

My 2 cents.

[Ormly]

When Paul says we are not justified by works, what he means (IMO) is that, apart from faith, works are useless. Doing the right things for the wrong reasons does not justify a man in God's sight. It is faith - doing the right things for the right reasons - that justifies a man in God's sight.

Who's faith, yours or Christ'? That distinction must made. Until it is the Faith of Him the Father's will will never be ascertained. Gal.2.20 KJV.

[seer]

I would put it more precisely, and say that we are justified by works of faith. The type of works that Paul is talking about are faithless works - works that are done for the regard of the letter of the law only, and not the Spirit (see 2 Corinthians 3). It's the theme of hypocrisy found throughout the Bible, recast into different words. A person is not justified by doing works because they are required of him. He is justified when he is internally transformed so that he does the works because he wants to. He follows the Spirit, not the letter. The law is written on his heart, not in ink on paper.

An example: In the incident where Christ was telling the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10, from memory), the Pharisee who queries Jesus is trying to find out what the bear minimum checklist is in order to obey the command "love your neighbour". The Pharisee wants to know who qualifies as his neighbour in a legal sense, so that he can be sure that he can keep the law to the letter. For example, if Christ said "your neighbour is any person who lives within a 1 mile radius of your place of residence", then the Pharisee could have made sure to be nice to all those people, and not care about anyone else. In short, the Pharisee was concerned with the letter of the law - not its Spirit.

Christblew away this notion by telling the parable of the Good Samaritan. The point of his parable was to show that the Pharisee was approaching the Law in the wrong way - he was so busy focussing on the technicalities (ie, the letter of the Law) that he failed to heed the Spirit.

Christ made several similar statements in His ministry, where people were concerned with the letter, and He instead guided them towards its Spirit. A great example is the Sermon on the Mount. There are several examples there where Christ follows the formula: "You have heard it said A, but I say B". In "A" Christ gives the letter of the law, and then in "B" He goes on to explain its Spirit. Another example is the argument on divorce - the Shammai (sp?) and Hillel schools were arguing over the letter of the law, and Christ solves the argument by appealling to its Spirit.

I think in the whole "works righteousness" thing, Paul is combatting people who behave like these legalists. They see the Law as a checklist - a list of things that you get ticked off, and if you get them all ticked off then you are "righteous". Paul is trying to say that that approach is wrong. It is not the works themselves that are important, but the attitude in your heart. The Law is merely a pointer to something beyond it - the Spirit of the law (ie, the Holy Spirit). And it is following this Spirit (by doing His will) that matters - not following some lifeless, written code.

When Paul says we are not justified by works, what he means (IMO) is that, apart from faith, works are useless. Doing the right things for the wrong reasons does not justify a man in God's sight. It is faith - doing the right things for the right reasons - that justifies a man in God's sight.

My 2 cents.

That makes more sense...

[Ormly]

So what did he say that I didn't, ---- three different ways? :ahem:

[seer]

That makes more sense...


That we are justified by works - the work of faith...

[lee_merrill]

That we are justified by works - the work of faith...I'm not sure that's going to do, though, then faith=work, and we read "faith without faith is useless." And it's plural, "works," not "work," and faith is never plural, so I don't think they can correspond so directly...

Blessings,
Lee

[Ormly]

That we are justified by works - the work of faith...OT or NT? My faith or the Faith of Christ within me? Shall I go on?

Here's a few verses to ponder:

Romans 1:17 (NASB-U)
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."

1 Cor. 1:30 (NASB-U)
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

[Tercel]

My faith or the Faith of Christ within me? Shall I go on?Perhaps you could explain on why you insist on such a strange reading.

Consider these sentences:
1) "I wish I had the singing talent of Bob."
2) "You must have the speed of a tiger."
3) "Samson had the strength of 100 men."
These sentences have the same X-of-Y construction as that in "faith of Christ". What is meant for (1) is not that the person should have Bob's singing talent, but that they should have a level of singing ability like unto that which Bob had. In (2) the tiger does not have speed in you of which you partake, but rather you have a speed which is similar in level to that of the tiger's. Samson in (3) doesn't manipulate the strength of the 100 men to his own ends, but rather himself possesses a level of strength which is the same in degree of that possessed by the 100 men.

The obvious reading of "you should have the faith of Christ" is to mean "you should have faith like Christ's". Your insistence upon reading it as something like "you must have Christ's own faith in you" seems strange... why read it in such an abnormal way when the simple standard way makes perfect sense of Paul's theology?

[Ormly]

Perhaps you could explain on why you insist on such a strange reading.


The obvious reading of "you should have the faith of Christ" is to mean "you should have faith like Christ's". Your insistence upon reading it as something like "you must have Christ's own faith in you" seems strange... why read it in such an abnormal way when the simple standard way makes perfect sense of Paul's theology?
Quite frankly "you should have the faith of Christ" isn't ab-normal but rather saying "you should have the faith of Christ" or "you should have faith like Christ's" is a sub-normal rendering because of unbelief and a watering down of the Gospel of the kingdom. Especially the prayer of Jesus in John 17.

If His life is in you, His faith comes with it. Why should that be so difficult to grasp as the more correct rendering and the main point of understanding in Paul's teaching. Either you believe being a Disciple is one who carries about in his flesh the person of Christ or your whole walk is based on living by His principles --- which I believe most mainstream Christian folk are doing. To them there has been no real experience in Christ realized, onlt a conversion in the mind. The majorty harp on the standard evangelical line that we thank God for saving us and then leave the whole thing alone. ---- We cannot grow into holiness, we must grow in it. Growing in it demands the necessity of Christ and His faith lived out by us. He is the author of our newly created life.

Hebrews 2:10 (NASB-U)
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

Perhaps you can say how that is to be accomplished in you after your are saved? What will make the difference for success?