Traducianism: Origin of the Body and Soul

[elysian]

Now here's an interesting concept. All of us understand to some degree the biological, physical, bodily process of human life- conception happens, the cells divide and the body being created matures. Yet where does the soul come from? Is it created at the moment of conception as well or does God only put a soul in a body at x- point of development?

Some contend that our souls are pre-existing, that the soul was created before the body. Others contest that the soul is created by God alone with no involvement of human parents, and that the body alone carries the influence of the parents, i.e. genetic patterns, etc.

Traducianism (http://www.confessionallutherans.org/papers/little17.html) suggests that the whole person- the body and soul together, integrated and inseparable,are created by God through earthly parents at the time of conception.

I find this to be an amazing revelation of how God continues to work in and through His creation, especially given that God is not bound to our perception and experience of time and space.

Any thoughts?

[spiritmech]

I'm for pretty much anything that *doesn't* have the soul pre-existing. Otherwise things start to look a lot like the tenth book of Plato's Republic.

[Solly]

I'm a monist, and do not hold to a separate soul/mind and body. But I am not a reductionist, ie that there is only the body. so it all starts at conception, and at death God takes part of us, our personality, to be with him until the resurrection of the body and we are reunited.
This comes from what JPH calls the semitic totality concept, and what John Cooper calls holistic dualism. Kenny is your man for further on this.

[elysian]

I'm a monist, and do not hold to a separate soul/mind and body. But I am not a reductionist, ie that there is only the body. so it all starts at conception, and at death God takes part of us, our personality, to be with him until the resurrection of the body and we are reunited.
This comes from what JPH calls the semitic totality concept, and what John Cooper calls holistic dualism. Kenny is your man for further on this.

The idea of soul/body integration is a fairly new one for me. I was raised RC- and oddly enough we were taught the "creationist" model- your body comes from your parents while your soul is from God, the whole "body=physical, physical=bad, sinful, dirty" idea.

The more I study Scripture, especially from the Lutheran perspective, I discover that the physical realm is not inherently evil as it too is part of God's creation. God is constantly present in and through and with His creation. I am not sure if this is your interpretation of Monism (I had assumed Monism was rather like universalism, that God is everything and everything is God.) I've heard Monism explained as the understanding that God is present everywhere, in through and with His creation. That I can agree with, but not that created things are God.

[Solly]

The monism referred specifically to human beings and their makeup, contra the platonist derived dualism. But plato down through Kant has also involved a dualism in the way we see creation, which has led to a downplaying of the importance of creation, up to an including premillenial end of the world scenarios. The word for God present in and through his creation would be immanence, but we must not lose sight of his transcendance. that is the key.

[rmwilliamsjr]

traducianism is opposed to creationism with regards to the origin of the soul.

see: http://www.apuritansmind.com/FrancisTurretin/francisturretincrerationismtraducianism.htm
for a nice essay by Turretin on the subject.



Tertullian was the author of propagation (traducis) in Treatise on the Soul
it is orthodox Christianity in most cases. pre-existence of the soul, AFAIK, has not been orthodox, although i am interested in references that would discuss it.

i came across the topic while working on ensoulment, it is interesting and IMHO something most Christians are unaware of.

[elysian]

I think the only trouble I would have with the Puritan model, again is the idea of dualism- the soul being solely of God and the body of the Earth- which has become distorted into the popular misconception that the soul is good and the body is somehow not good. (The cartoon images of the devil-on-the-shoulder versus the angel-on-the-shoulder come to mind.)

The danger in traducianism is that one can twist the notion of body/soul integration- that both the body and soul are created by God through human parents at the moment of conception- into the idea that because God is everywhere and is present in and through His creation that creation itself is God.

Yet the traducian model is most congruent with Scripture. Nowhere is it said that we exist before that moment of conception- though God is not subject to our linear understanding of time. It is implied that a human life- body and soul as an integrated unit come into being and both are created and formed by God through human parents, at the moment of conception. (See Psalm 139:13-16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=psalm+139%3A13-16&x=7&y=5))

In the Genesis account God is said to breathe life into inanimate clay, yet He is both the Creator of the clay as well as the Author of life. (See Genesis 2:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=genesis+2%3A7))

[scholasticus]

Dear Elysian,

I was raised atheist, and converted to the Catholic faith!

We don't beleive that the body is bad. We beleive it is good, and for a reason which you actually stated:

"In the Genesis account God is said to breathe life into inanimate clay, yet He is both the Creator of the clay as well as the Author of life."

The body and soul are *distinct* but not separate. In fact, they are an amazingly intimate unity (though not identical). Physical death, the separation of soul from body, therefore seems like an awful prospect to us.

Sadly, both our bodies and souls are affected by original sin... that is one reason why we have *Sacraments* like baptism (in which we are freed from original sin) - physical signs and means of spiritual grace.

Peace

Keir

[elysian]

Dear Elysian,

I was raised atheist, and converted to the Catholic faith!

We don't beleive that the body is bad. We beleive it is good, and for a reason which you actually stated:

"In the Genesis account God is said to breathe life into inanimate clay, yet He is both the Creator of the clay as well as the Author of life."

The body and soul are *distinct* but not separate. In fact, they are an amazingly intimate unity (though not identical). Physical death, the separation of soul from body, therefore seems like an awful prospect to us.

Sadly, both our bodies and souls are affected by original sin... that is one reason why we have *Sacraments* like baptism (in which we are freed from original sin) - physical signs and means of spiritual grace.

Peace

Keir

Agreed that I may not have been taught 100% correctly as a kid growing up in an RC church. My mother actually used to believe all Protestants went to Hell, (do not pass go, do not collect $200 :lol: :lol: ) and honestly much of what my sisters and I were taught about Catholicism I have later found to be either distorted or not entirely true today (we grew up in a very conservative parish just as the Church was still adjusting to Vatican II, and my mother had converted BEFORE Vatican II.)

Lutherans and Catholics are very close in what they believe regarding the regenerative role of Baptism, and that all of creation is affected by Original Sin. I've not done it yet but perhaps I will investigate what the Catechism of the RCC has to say on the issue, in all fairness.