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Thoughtful Monk
11-02-2014, 03:11 PM
Mark Driscoll has resigned and Mars Hill is disbanding. All the satellite branches are either closing or becoming independent churches.

So what's your take-away from this slow motion disaster?

For me when in a church, check the accountability structure around the pastor. If its "Jesus only", yes people, or otherwise none or minimal, run!

KingsGambit
11-02-2014, 05:41 PM
I think you have the right takeaway. Of course, the NT model isn't just one pastor, but rather a group of elders. I think as a practical matter, those churches (like mine) that may have one senior pastor but a committee of elders that can serve as a Diaconate and who do serve as a set of checks and balances are okay, as not every church has multiple people with a seminary education.

Truthseeker
11-02-2014, 07:11 PM
If its "Jesus only" . . ., run!What do you mean, what kind of church?

Paprika
11-02-2014, 09:04 PM
So what's your take-away from this slow motion disaster?
Propping up a abusive leader because he brings in the numbers is a monumentally stupid thing to do.

KingsGambit
11-03-2014, 05:43 AM
What do you mean, what kind of church?

He means if the minister claims only to have accountability to Jesus.

Adrift
11-03-2014, 07:15 AM
I think you have the right takeaway. Of course, the NT model isn't just one pastor, but rather a group of elders. I think as a practical matter, those churches (like mine) that may have one senior pastor but a committee of elders that can serve as a Diaconate and who do serve as a set of checks and balances are okay, as not every church has multiple people with a seminary education.

Can you expound upon the NT model you have in mind? When I think of the NT model, I think mostly of smallish house churches, occasional opportunities to preach in the synagogue, and usually an overseer over a region called Elder, or presbyter, or bishop (all of which seemed to be the same office initially). The exact role of a deacon seems to be a bit fuzzy, but it seems their role may have been to help serve either the Christian community or the overseer in some capacity, but if I'm remember correctly, a lot of scholars don't really see much difference between the office of deacon and bishop early on. Outside of leaders of house churches, and deacons/bishops, the greatest authoritative group seems to be the Apostles and the church located in Jerusalem.

Eventually, as the church grew, by the second century we seem to see a much more delineated church hierarchy.

KingsGambit
11-03-2014, 07:25 AM
Can you expound upon the NT model you have in mind? When I think of the NT model, I think mostly of smallish house churches, occasional opportunities to preach in the synagogue, and usually an overseer over a region called Elder, or presbyter, or bishop (all of which seemed to be the same office initially). The exact role of a deacon seems to be a bit fuzzy, but it seems their role may have been to help serve either the Christian community or the overseer in some capacity, but if I'm remember correctly, a lot of scholars don't really see much difference between the office of deacon and bishop early on. Outside of leaders of house churches, and deacons/bishops, the greatest authoritative group seems to be the Apostles and the church located in Jerusalem.

Eventually, as the church grew, by the second century we seem to see a much more delineated church hierarchy.

This is essentially what I had in mind; one of my seminary professors has made the argument that "deacon" finds its etymology in "dust gatherer" because they were rushing about so fast to do whatever needed to be done that they kicked up dust, and that it was kind of a nebulous position. In other words, they were improvising on the fly based on perceived needs, and we should not take this example from the still-fledgling church as normative for all time (especially because things would change by the second century as everything got consolidated, as you mention). At the same time, I do think it's worth noting the sort of "shared power" there that speaks against the sort of authoritarianism we see in some Protestant churches today, including Driscoll's. There were checks and balances in Driscoll's case, but they ended up being "in name only" due to the power he accumulated.

Paprika
11-03-2014, 07:26 AM
the NT model
Does that include voting in members to some or all of the leadership positions?

KingsGambit
11-03-2014, 07:33 AM
Does that include voting in members to some or all of the leadership positions?

No. I hope my last post made clear that I use the term "NT model" not so much to refer to something normative and binding but rather as an example of how the apostles addressed their own situation.

Truthseeker
11-03-2014, 03:32 PM
No. I hope my last post made clear that I use the term "NT model" not so much to refer to something normative and binding but rather as an example of how the apostles addressed their own situation.For some reason that is perhaps unique in my case (Sparko calls me a nut) I thought you are a RCC member. Or is Catholicity the one?

KingsGambit
11-03-2014, 03:59 PM
For some reason that is perhaps unique in my case (Sparko calls me a nut) I thought you are a RCC member. Or is Catholicity the one?

No, we both attend a Baptist church.

Thoughtful Monk
11-04-2014, 03:43 PM
What do you mean, what kind of church?

I mean a church where the pastor makes excessive noises about being only accountable to God and not to man. I went to one of those long enough to learn that was code for the pastor was going to do anything he wanted to and if you don't like it - even if you can also show its unBiblical, there's the door.