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pancreasman
11-04-2014, 03:11 PM
Not sure where this belongs. I'm seeing at the intersection of a church and society. However, if mods feel it belongs somewhere else, shift away!

A true story:

Some years ago, I lived in a small country town. I grew to like a man I met, called Graham. I taught his daughter, we went on a school camp together, he played guitar like me. He was an engineer with a very bright enquiring mind.

As I got to know him, I found he was very involved in a small Christian denomination. It took the Bible VERY seriously and they had Bible studies that I regularly attended. They had quite conservative theological views. I enjoyed the discussions. My wife and I considered joining.

We moved to another town. The church there mowed our lawn before we arrived and were very welcoming. After due consideration, I decided this wasn't the church for me. I heard no more from them ... at all.

Graham and his family moved over to the same town. We did not socialise much at all, however I can clearly remember one evening of 'deep' conversation at our house where Graham was in tears worrying that if he strayed from the mark, God was going to 'get' him in some way. This group called it 'processing'. God would 'process' you ... like lunch meat.

A few years pass. We hear Graham had left his wife (who always seemed fiercely neurotic to me) and the church. I contacted him on FaceBook. He was delighted to hear from me. He seemed very happy, and explained that after much soul searching he had left that church. The only alternative his wife gave him was to leave as she could not be yoked to an unbeliever.

Another year. Graham grows to like a lady in Dallas who he plays scrabble with on the internet. They meet and fall in love, eventually marrying. I meet Graham during this time. He looks years younger and is the happiest I have ever seen him. I am delighted for him.

His grown children in the church will not speak to him. He is not invited to their weddings. Money from an inheritance he lent to the church is never returned. He is not allowed to see his grandchildren. Graciously, he sadly accepts this, saying he is responsible for taking them to this church in the first place. He has long term plans for a slow reconciliation.

Less than one year after he is remarried, Graham is suddenly killed in a car accident. His new wife, a christian from a progressive baptist, church is bereft. His daughters do not come to his funeral. Only his son does. No one in the church of which he was an active member with deep friendships attends.

I can barely contain my rage. Those hateful, small minded people. They don't want to be 'stained' by association with this good man, this reprobate. They mumble among themselves that God killed Graham for leaving. It is very hard not to hate, I struggle with it.


These people are FERVENT. They are committed. They study and study. They are doctrinally conventional in most areas. How can they get it so wrong? Are they wrong? Are they Christians?

Raphael
11-04-2014, 03:28 PM
Not sure where this belongs. I'm seeing at the intersection of a church and society. However, if mods feel it belongs somewhere else, shift away!

A true story:

Some years ago, I lived in a small country town. I grew to like a man I met, called Graham. I taught his daughter, we went on a school camp together, he played guitar like me. He was an engineer with a very bright enquiring mind.

As I got to know him, I found he was very involved in a small Christian denomination. It took the Bible VERY seriously and they had Bible studies that I regularly attended. They had quite conservative theological views. I enjoyed the discussions. My wife and I considered joining.

We moved to another town. The church there mowed our lawn before we arrived and were very welcoming. After due consideration, I decided this wasn't the church for me. I heard no more from them ... at all.

Graham and his family moved over to the same town. We did not socialise much at all, however I can clearly remember one evening of 'deep' conversation at our house where Graham was in tears worrying that if he strayed from the mark, God was going to 'get' him in some way. This group called it 'processing'. God would 'process' you ... like lunch meat.

A few years pass. We hear Graham had left his wife (who always seemed fiercely neurotic to me) and the church. I contacted him on FaceBook. He was delighted to hear from me. He seemed very happy, and explained that after much soul searching he had left that church. The only alternative his wife gave him was to leave as she could not be yoked to an unbeliever.

Another year. Graham grows to like a lady in Dallas who he plays scrabble with on the internet. They meet and fall in love, eventually marrying. I meet Graham during this time. He looks years younger and is the happiest I have ever seen him. I am delighted for him.

His grown children in the church will not speak to him. He is not invited to their weddings. Money from an inheritance he lent to the church is never returned. He is not allowed to see his grandchildren. Graciously, he sadly accepts this, saying he is responsible for taking them to this church in the first place. He has long term plans for a slow reconciliation.

Less than one year after he is remarried, Graham is suddenly killed in a car accident. His new wife, a christian from a progressive baptist, church is bereft. His daughters do not come to his funeral. Only his son does. No one in the church of which he was an active member with deep friendships attends.

I can barely contain my rage. Those hateful, small minded people. They don't want to be 'stained' by association with this good man, this reprobate. They mumble among themselves that God killed Graham for leaving. It is very hard not to hate, I struggle with it.


These people are FERVENT. They are committed. They study and study. They are doctrinally conventional in most areas. How can they get it so wrong? Are they wrong? Are they Christians?

It is because they have forgotten about Grace.

It is by grace alone that I am saved. It is grace that covers my stumbles and my falls. Had the churches (and the family) in the story remembered that, then Graham would have had a very different experience.

There is way more I could say, but I'm meant to be working so will leave it for now.

pancreasman
11-04-2014, 03:38 PM
Thanks, Raph. Respect.

Darth Executor
11-04-2014, 04:38 PM
I can barely contain my rage. Those hateful, small minded people.

Are they really hateful? From the way you describe it they sound more like they're trying to avoid contagion. I wouldn't call someone trying to avoid catching a disease hateful. Paranoid might be a better fit. Callous at worst. Also, considering how well insular, fundamentalist religions do in terms of retaining their values, traditions and ways of life I'd say you're the one being small minded. Do you believe in evolution?


They don't want to be 'stained' by association with this good man, this reprobate. They mumble among themselves that God killed Graham for leaving. It is very hard not to hate, I struggle with it.

I'm surprised they'd share these kinds of thoughts with you considering you never heard from them again. Are you Christian?

pancreasman
11-04-2014, 04:46 PM
Are they really hateful? From the way you describe it they sound more like they're trying to avoid contagion. I wouldn't call someone trying to avoid catching a disease hateful. Paranoidn might be a better fit. Callous at worst. Also, considering how well insular, fundamentalist religions do in terms of retaining their values, traditions and ways of life I'd say you're the one being small minded. Do you believe in evolution?



I'm surprised they'd share these kinds of thoughts with you considering you never heard from them again. Are you Christian?

They didn't, but when I was on the edges of the group before I'd heard them say similar things. It's not a huge extrapolation. And no, I'm not a Christian. Used to be, but not now. Yes, I know I wasn't a 'real' Christian.

robrecht
11-04-2014, 05:25 PM
Lots of small minded or pusilanimous (small souled) people, Christian or otherwise, especially if one defines 'Christian' in terms of doctrinal beliefs. Christianity is first and foremost following a way, a way of life, a way of love, a way of courageous and moral vision.


Which of these three, do you think, was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?” He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

If you believe and practice that, you are a Christian. Unorthodox perhpas. Heretic maybe. All heresies will be forgiven. But Christian in the sense which matters more than any other.

pancreasman
11-04-2014, 06:11 PM
Lots of small minded or pusilanimous (small souled) people, Christian or otherwise, especially if one defines 'Christian' in terms of doctrinal beliefs. Christianity is first and foremost following a way, a way of life, a way of love, a way of courageous and moral vision.


Which of these three, do you think, was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?” He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

If you believe and practice that, you are a Christian. Unorthodox perhpas. Heretic maybe. All heresies will be forgiven. But Christian in the sense which matters more than any other.

Interestingly, my thoughts have continually gone to the parable of the Good Samaritan. As usual, robrecht, you strike a chord in my heart. Let's be heretics together.

Darth Executor
11-04-2014, 07:00 PM
They didn't, but when I was on the edges of the group before I'd heard them say similar things. It's not a huge extrapolation. And no, I'm not a Christian. Used to be, but not now.

It's not an extrapolation at all, it's a lie.


Yes, I know I wasn't a 'real' Christian.

I'm thinking that maybe you'd have fit in with them after all.

Cow Poke
11-04-2014, 08:03 PM
It almost sounds a bit cultish, Pman - maybe they practice "shunning"? It sounds like it. I am very sorry about this, because this kind of thing gives Christ a black eye, so to speak.

Cow Poke
11-04-2014, 08:04 PM
You're really not helping, DE. :sad:

One Bad Pig
11-04-2014, 08:14 PM
It is because they have forgotten about Grace.

It is by grace alone that I am saved. It is grace that covers my stumbles and my falls. Had the churches (and the family) in the story remembered that, then Graham would have had a very different experience.

There is way more I could say, but I'm meant to be working so will leave it for now.
This. All the knowledge won't help a lick if it never produces a change in the heart.

pancreasman
11-04-2014, 08:37 PM
It's not an extrapolation at all, it's a lie.



I'm thinking that maybe you'd have fit in with them after all.

One of your great qualities is your predictability. One of your great flaws is your predictability.

fm93
11-04-2014, 08:54 PM
One of your great qualities is your predictability. One of your great flaws is your predictability.
I knew you'd say that. :smug:

Catholicity
11-04-2014, 09:49 PM
I think only God can judge who is and isn't a Christian.

Darth Executor
11-04-2014, 11:29 PM
You're really not helping, DE. :sad:

Could you elaborate? Not helping with what?

Cow Poke
11-05-2014, 03:54 AM
Could you elaborate? Not helping with what?

Ya just don't kick a man when he's down, that's all.

Cerebrum123
11-05-2014, 06:04 AM
Lots of small minded or pusilanimous (small souled) people, Christian or otherwise, especially if one defines 'Christian' in terms of doctrinal beliefs. Christianity is first and foremost following a way, a way of life, a way of love, a way of courageous and moral vision.


Which of these three, do you think, was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?” He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

If you believe and practice that, you are a Christian. Unorthodox perhpas. Heretic maybe. All heresies will be forgiven. But Christian in the sense which matters more than any other.

:twitch:
Please tell me you mean those who repent of heresies.

Darth Executor
11-05-2014, 08:40 AM
Ya just don't kick a man when he's down, that's all.

I wasn't kicking, he just appears to be down for dubious reasons.

I originally had the same visceral reaction everyone else in this thread but unlike the rest of you I didn't stop thinking, even after I turned off my computer and went to bed at night. I've since concluded that the visceral reaction is a product of pancreasman's good writing skills and mostly unwarranted. Pancreasman makes a big case out of Graham's family placing their philosophy above family bonds, but in reality Graham is just as much (if not more) of a culprit. He wasn't willing to set aside his ideology for the sake of keeping his family together so he shouldn't be surprised if his family doesn't want to have anything to do with him anymore. It's entirely understandable that they might be resentful of a family head who takes them on one journey only to decide to do a 180 in the middle of it. Now I can understand why pancreasman might think everybody has an obligation to accomodate his radical changes because such an environment benefits him, but the Christian pile-on is mostly unwarranted, especially in light of pman's own admission that he has "embellished" the most important part of the story. I can also tell you that on my end I hate funerals and will not attend one if I can get away with it. And it has nothing to do with hating the dead individual.

Cow Poke
11-05-2014, 08:45 AM
I have the same hopes and feelings for Pman as I did for Punkinhead when she was a Mormon. Grace works much better than baseball bats. :shrug:

robrecht
11-05-2014, 09:12 AM
:twitch:
Please tell me you mean those who repent of heresies.
Of course. I think we all repent of heresies when we see the truth. In the meantime, I'm not sure anyone knows the truth perfectly so I will trust God.

robrecht
11-05-2014, 09:16 AM
... unlike the rest of you I didn't stop thinking, even after I turned off my computer and went to bed at night. ... dubious assumption

Paprika
11-05-2014, 10:11 AM
:twitch:
Please tell me you mean those who repent of heresies.
I have never cared to study the metaphysics of the Trinity and am pretty sure that whatever incoherent understanding I have would fall under heresy. That should also likely apply for many other Christians.

I don't think God will hold that against us.

Paprika
11-05-2014, 10:13 AM
Those hateful, small minded people. They don't want to be 'stained' by association with this good man, this reprobate. They mumble among themselves that God killed Graham for leaving. It is very hard not to hate, I struggle with it.

These people are FERVENT. They are committed. They study and study. They are doctrinally conventional in most areas. How can they get it so wrong? Are they wrong? Are they Christians?
Perhaps, as Darth suggested, they're not hateful? It is possible to associate with someone without hating them.

Cerebrum123
11-05-2014, 10:54 AM
Of course. I think we all repent of heresies when we see the truth. In the meantime, I'm not sure anyone knows the truth perfectly so I will trust God.

This, combined with your previous quote seems to imply universalism. Especially since many people do not repent once they see the truth, only harden themselves against it.

I never said anything about knowing truth perfectly. That's a red herring. There's a huge difference between not having 100% perfect knowledge, and things which are 100% wrong.

False teachers, and those who follow them are pretty clearly condemned in the NT.

Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

2 Peter 2 New International Version (NIV)

False Teachers and Their Destruction
2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Matthew 24:23-25New International Version (NIV)

23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

Revelation 14:8-10New International Version (NIV) [1]

8 A second angel followed and said, “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’[a] which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

2 Timothy 2:14 [ Dealing With False Teachers ] Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

1 Timothy 6:19-21New International Version (NIV) [2]

19 In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

20 Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith.

Grace be with you all.

[1] These are people fooled by the False Prophet, so it falls under false teaching.
[2] These are people who are leaving Christianity for the Gnostic heresy.


I have never cared to study the metaphysics of the Trinity and am pretty sure that whatever incoherent understanding I have would fall under heresy. That should also likely apply for many other Christians.

I don't think God will hold that against us.

Seriously? You are comparing that to "all heresies will be forgiven"? Surely you can see the difference between a damnable heresy(ie Gnosticism, Arianism, "no gospel at all", etc.), and a somewhat imperfect understanding of a complicated doctrine, right?

robrecht
11-05-2014, 11:03 AM
This, combined with your previous quote seems to imply universalism. ... Seeing as you've already asked me about my position with respect to universalism, and I've answered you, it seems silly for you to make assumptions about this.

Paprika
11-05-2014, 11:05 AM
Seriously? You are comparing that to "all heresies will be forgiven"? Surely you can see the difference between a damnable heresy(ie Gnosticism, Arianism, "no gospel at all", etc.), and a somewhat imperfect understanding of a complicated doctrine, right?
I'm not sure what you mean by 'damnable', and how you arrive at that conclusion for Arianism, for example. As to imperfect understanding of a complicated doctrine that is heresy, I only see that it only poses a problem for those who choose to claim that heretics are not Christians or that heretics will not be saved or the like, because many lay Christians do have such imperfect understandings and thus believe heresies.

Boxing Pythagoras
11-05-2014, 11:05 AM
Seriously? You are comparing that to "all heresies will be forgiven"? Surely you can see the difference between a damnable heresy(ie Gnosticism, Arianism, "no gospel at all", etc.), and a somewhat imperfect understanding of a complicated doctrine, right?I don't know about Paprika, but I certainly don't see the difference which you find to be so obvious. Especially since Arianism actually is just a minor difference in the understanding of a complicated doctrine.

robrecht
11-05-2014, 11:13 AM
I never said anything about knowing truth perfectly. That's a red herring. You seem to be assuming that I am engaged in an argument with your position about something. Otherwise, why would my statement supposedly be a red herring just because you have not said something? This seems most illogical on your part. Perhaps you could let me know just what it is that you think I am arguing with you about. I doubt that I would want to participate in such an argument, but at least I would know what you are trying to argue with me about.

Adrift
11-05-2014, 11:19 AM
Hello robrecht, if I'm remembering correctly, aren't you Catholic? If so, would it be off base to assume that you believe that all heresies will be repented of in purgatory? Or do you not believe in a purgatory? Maybe that's the disconnect between yourself and Cerebrum.

Cerebrum123
11-05-2014, 11:35 AM
Seeing as you've already asked me about my position with respect to universalism, and I've answered you, it seems silly for you to make assumptions about this.

I didn't make any assumptions. I said your previous posts imply that when taken together. That's why I had to ask you again. When you repeatedly imply a certain position in your posts, maybe you should at least consider that it might be the content of your posts that's the problem.

Here, answering this question will clarify things further for me. When you said that "people repent when they see the truth", are you talking about people who die and are thus seeing the Truth? If the answer is yes, then, you are clearly advocating universalism.

You also, again, have ignored the substance of my posts, and dodged my questions. You're also hiding behind your own ignorance.


I'm not sure what you mean by 'damnable', and how you arrive at that conclusion for Arianism, for example. As to imperfect understanding of a complicated doctrine that is heresy, I only see that it only poses a problem for those who choose to claim that heretics are not Christians or that heretics will not be saved or the like, because many lay Christians do have such imperfect understandings and thus believe heresies.

:sigh:
You really can't see how a heretic isn't a real Christian? I just gave examples of how the NT writers had false teachers, and those who followed them as not Christian. They condemned them in very strong terms. Their teachings are foolishness, and those who follow them end in ruin. What they teach was even said to be "no gospel at all", meaning it wasn't Christianity at all.

Arianism denies that Christ is LORD, which is not in any way shape or form what Christianity teaches. As for "damnable heresies" I mean the kind that put one outside the Body of Christ, and would mean that they are not saved.

Gnosticism, Arianism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, all fall well into a category that is clearly heretical. robrecht says all of these will be forgiven, and that all people repent when they "see the truth".

If he answers yes to my question, then you need to answer if you agree with him on that.

If a Christian isn't at least trying to make their views align with the Bible, then they are failing this admonition.

2 Timothy 2:14-16New International Version (NIV)

Dealing With False Teachers
14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.

And if it's due to a teacher, well, teachers have more to answer for.

James 3:1 [ Taming the Tongue ] Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.


I don't know about Paprika, but I certainly don't see the difference which you find to be so obvious. Especially since Arianism actually is just a minor difference in the understanding of a complicated doctrine.

:twitch:
Seriously?

Arianism
/ˈɛərɪəˌnɪzəm/
noun
1.
the doctrine of Arius, pronounced heretical at the Council of Nicaea, which asserted that Christ was not of one substance with the Father, but a creature raised by the Father to the dignity of Son of God

The underlined is very clearly heretical. You don't need to know much at all to know that. It's refuted quite clearly in John's Gospel.

John 1 New International Version (NIV)

The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

Simple reading comprehension is all that's needed to oust Arianism as false.

Cerebrum123
11-05-2014, 11:39 AM
You seem to be assuming that I am engaged in an argument with your position about something. Otherwise, why would my statement supposedly be a red herring just because you have not said something? This seems most illogical on your part. Perhaps you could let me know just what it is that you think I am arguing with you about. I doubt that I would want to participate in such an argument, but at least I would know what you are trying to argue with me about.

By calling it a "red herring" I meant that it had absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, and is only distracting from the conversation. You may not be intending to "win an argument", but you certainly seem intent on distracting from the issue at hand.

What I'm trying to do is get a clarification of your position, but what you've said so far clarifies nothing, and only distracts from what is being asked.

robrecht
11-05-2014, 11:44 AM
Hello robrecht, if I'm remembering correctly, aren't you Catholic? If so, would it be off base to assume that you believe that all heresies will be repented of in purgatory? Or do you not believe in a purgatory? Maybe that's the disconnect between yourself and Cerebrum.
I am Catholic, 'though I do not agree with every teaching of the Catholic Church. I do believe in or at least hope for a Purgatory of sorts, and suspect Jesus may have as well, as part of the Judaism of his time, so not necessarily as a doctrine of the Catholic Church. If there is a Purgatory, that would probably be a good place to continue our edification and repentance of heresies and other things, but I don't think we should delay our repentance. I can't speak for Cerebrum123,but he seems to think that the validity of at least some of my statements is somehow tied to things that he has or has not said. Most curious.

robrecht
11-05-2014, 12:15 PM
I didn't make any assumptions. I said your previous posts imply that when taken together. That's why I had to ask you again. But you did not ask me a question. I still think you were making an assumption.


When you repeatedly imply a certain position in your posts, maybe you should at least consider that it might be the content of your posts that's the problem. First, learn the difference between my supposedly implying something and your inferring something. Second, what exactly is the problem that you are referring to here? I was not aware that there was a problem.


Here, answering this question will clarify things further for me. When you said that "people repent when they see the truth", are you talking about people who die and are thus seeing the Truth? If the answer is yes, then, you are clearly advocating universalism.Earlier, I was merely quoting someone from a movie, Pope Innocent III, actually. I don't know if he was a universalist or not, but I don't think so, and I doubt he actually said this, but it was a good line in the movie. You are misquoting me here. This is one of the reasons why I find conversations with you to be so dreary. I did not say simply "people repent when they see the truth" and it is impossible for you to understand what I said in context as somehow "talking about people who die and are thus seeing the Truth." Your misinterpretation of my words seems to be based on your desire to interrogate me about universalism, despite the fact that I have already told me you my position and offerred to provide you with more detail from published articles, but you declined that previous offer. I did say, with reference to those of us who repent of heresies, ie, none of whom are dead to the best of my knowledge, that "I think we all repent of heresies when we see the truth."


You also, again, have ignored the substance of my posts, and dodged my questions. You're also hiding behind your own ignorance. I completely admit to ignoring much of and many of your posts. But, again, I don't think you had asked me any questions, so I have certainly not dogged any questions, and I have not hidden from anything, least of all my own ignorance. [/QUOTE]

Boxing Pythagoras
11-05-2014, 12:15 PM
:twitch:
Seriously?

Arianism
/ˈɛərɪəˌnɪzəm/
noun
1.
the doctrine of Arius, pronounced heretical at the Council of Nicaea, which asserted that Christ was not of one substance with the Father, but a creature raised by the Father to the dignity of Son of God

The underlined is very clearly heretical. You don't need to know much at all to know that. It's refuted quite clearly in John's Gospel.

John 1 New International Version (NIV)

The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

Simple reading comprehension is all that's needed to oust Arianism as false.I'd say that the definition of Arianism which you provided is somewhat inadequate. Arias did not deny the divinity of Jesus. He simply denied that Jesus and the Father were of one substance. I know quite a number of Christians who have held that view, ignorant of the complicated theology behind the Trinity.

Incidentally, I'm not a fan of the usual translation of John 1:1, and prefer καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος be translated as "and the Word was divine."

robrecht
11-05-2014, 12:15 PM
By calling it a "red herring" I meant that it had absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, and is only distracting from the conversation. You may not be intending to "win an argument", but you certainly seem intent on distracting from the issue at hand.

What I'm trying to do is get a clarification of your position, but what you've said so far clarifies nothing, and only distracts from what is being asked.What is 'the subject at hand' in your opinion? And, again, why would something I said be a red herring or not, merely based on whether or not you had said or not said something? This appears to be an assumption on your part that I am engaged in an argument with you about something. If so, I think it is fair for me to ask you, once again, what it is you think we are arguing about?

Cerebrum123
11-05-2014, 01:07 PM
I'd say that the definition of Arianism which you provided is somewhat inadequate. Arias did not deny the divinity of Jesus. He simply denied that Jesus and the Father were of one substance. I know quite a number of Christians who have held that view, ignorant of the complicated theology behind the Trinity.

Incidentally, I'm not a fan of the usual translation of John 1:1, and prefer καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος be translated as "and the Word was divine."

From what I understand Arianism teaches that Jesus was a created being, which would mean He was not equal with the Father. Again, even if you want to use your translation[1], this doesn't fit with other Biblical teaching.

Philippians 2:5-7New International Version (NIV)

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

1. We do have John Reece Tweb's resident scholar. I think I'm going to check his threads on this. It might have been lost in the crash, if so, I can ask him to take a look at this verse specifically.

@robreht, I have a response typed up, but I need to do something before I put it up. As for the "topic at hand" it's all about heresy, and forgiveness.

Boxing Pythagoras
11-05-2014, 01:30 PM
From what I understand Arianism teaches that Jesus was a created being, which would mean He was not equal with the Father. Again, even if you want to use your translation[1], this doesn't fit with other Biblical teaching.

Philippians 2:5-7New International Version (NIV)

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

1. We do have John Reece Tweb's resident scholar. I think I'm going to check his threads on this. It might have been lost in the crash, if so, I can ask him to take a look at this verse specifically.The word which the NIV is translating as "nature" is μορφῇ which more usually means "form" or "shape" or "outward appearance." I don't think this verse really works against Arianism, either.

Cerebrum123
11-05-2014, 01:32 PM
The word which the NIV is translating as "nature" is μορφῇ which more usually means "form" or "shape" or "outward appearance." I don't think this verse really works against Arianism, either.

It's not the "form" part it's the "equality with God" part. :poke:

But again, I can try asking John Reece about this one too. :yes:

Jedidiah
11-05-2014, 01:56 PM
Cere, I think you are wading in a swamp trying to argue heresy with an unbeliever. Good luck with that.

pancreasman
11-05-2014, 04:50 PM
Examining my thoughts, I recognise that I posted this thread hoping to reassure myself that not all christians were mean-spirited narrow minded legalists. Intellectually, I know this is certain, but on this very conservative site I thought if I could get some expressions of compassion and empathy, I would feel better. Simple as that.

For me personally, a kind, generous heart is of much more importance than a robust 'correct' theology. I know many of you disagree and that's ok. I thank CP, robrecht and others who have written with open hearts here. You guys give me hope that Christianity is not just another club dedicated to the proposition that 'we're right and good and you're wrong and bad'.

I suppose the take away message for me is that we all need to think how we look to others, not to slavishly gain approval, but rather to shine with forgiving, open hearts, offering love to all as a FIRST and primary response. If you shine this way, you will be a true saint imo, and you will attract others by your great love and humility. I think people like this are real saints and I find them everywhere, in every creed.

I understand this is heresy to some of you and I am a deluded unbeliever, but this is what I believe with the most integrity I can muster. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe it is possible to be this kind of person and be a Christian.

One Bad Pig
11-05-2014, 05:01 PM
I suppose the take away message for me is that we all need to think how we look to others, not to slavishly gain approval, but rather to shine with forgiving, open hearts, offering love to all as a FIRST and primary response. If you shine this way, you will be a true saint imo, and you will attract others by your great love and humility. I think people like this are real saints and I find them everywhere, in every creed.

I understand this is heresy to some of you and I am a deluded unbeliever, but this is what I believe with the most integrity I can muster. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe it is possible to be this kind of person and be a Christian.
The church has long struggled with the fact that some people profess Christ yet do not follow Christian principles while on the other hand some people follow Christian principles but do not profess Christ. Neither professing Christ nor following Christian principles are efficacious by themselves AFAIU.

robrecht
11-05-2014, 05:01 PM
Examining my thoughts, I recognise that I posted this thread hoping to reassure myself that not all christians were mean-spirited narrow minded legalists. Intellectually, I know this is certain, but on this very conservative site I thought if I could get some expressions of compassion and empathy, I would feel better. Simple as that.

For me personally, a kind, generous heart is of much more importance than a robust 'correct' theology. I know many of you disagree and that's ok. I thank CP, robrecht and others who have written with open hearts here. You guys give me hope that Christianity is not just another club dedicated to the proposition that 'we're right and good and you're wrong and bad'.

I suppose the take away message for me is that we all need to think how we look to others, not to slavishly gain approval, but rather to shine with forgiving, open hearts, offering love to all as a FIRST and primary response. If you shine this way, you will be a true saint imo, and you will attract others by your great love and humility. I think people like this are real saints and I find them everywhere, in every creed.

I understand this is heresy to some of you and I am a deluded unbeliever, but this is what I believe with the most integrity I can muster. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe it is possible to be this kind of person and be a Christian.Oh, Jesus, don't lump me into the same group as Cow Poker. I am an honorary Southern Baptist, whereas he is an ornery Southern Baptist. Big difference! And I say this with all the mean-spirited, narrow-minded, legalistic lack of compassion and empathy, right and good robust correct theology that I can muster in my unforgiving closed heart against his wrong and bad club! I certainly and slavishly hope and arrogantly expect that you will approve of this!

rogue06
11-05-2014, 05:41 PM
This thread has been moved to the Prayer Request and Praise Reports forum. Please keep in mind that this is a non-debate/non-arguing area before posting

Thank you

Jedidiah
11-05-2014, 08:29 PM
If you trust in Jesus Christ you are a Christian.

Paprika
11-05-2014, 08:41 PM
If you trust in Jesus Christ you are a Christian.
I regret to inform you that no debate is allowed here.

pancreasman
11-05-2014, 09:08 PM
Not talking about who does or does not fit the bill, talking about aspiring to live with a compassionate heart towards all.

Cow Poke
11-06-2014, 04:11 AM
I regret to inform you that no debate is allowed here.


I accidentally amen'd your post while trying to report it -- I'm not awake yet. Pap, PLEASE allow the moderators to decide what's debate and what's not. If you think somebody is debating here, use the report function. Thanks