"God is outside of time" and "God can't learn"

[doogieduff]

"God is outside of time."
"God can't learn."

These are two things I hear, brought up in almost all theological discussions. I can't seem to find them in the Bible anywhere, can anybody help?

[nfactor13131313]

I don't think the Bible ever says anything quite so explicitly, though it does indicate that God does not perceive time as humans would (example, a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and vice versa).

Taking relativity theory into account, though, what time frame could we say God has if God does have one? Relative speed as well as being close to gravity sources can alter your time frame apparently (like in the twin paradox and other weird things like that). And tachyons are even stranger.
So if we did say that God is in time pretty much as we are, is it Earth Local Time, or what?
Is time simply an element of this Creation, or is it something that any and every being would experience regardless, including God?

Given how weird time seems to be given just our current scientific understanding, I guess it's difficult for me to say what time would mean to God if God is not subject to the laws of physics as we currently understand them.

What do you think?

[nomad]

the laws of physics don't govern time, they govern how things act on a time axis.

i must admit, philosophically, i wonder that if god is subject to time, if he is inside it so to speak, it makes it seem like it is greater than God. but time is such a weird concept to pin down, so this is probably not justified. but then again, if god is not a part of time, then time always existed along with God, but not intrinsic to him.

maybe though, it might be like the color of a box; to have a box, you must have a color of the box too; the brown is not part of the box or outside it, but doesn't exist without it either.

but definitely, when we say God 'is everywhere', we mean no matter how far you go in any direction in space, God is there. but time is somehow different.

[Kenny]

[QUOTE]Today @ 08:32 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=91262#post91262)
doogieduff:

"God is outside of time."

The Bible neither affirms nor denies this proposition. We are free to affirm it or deny it or be agostic about it --depending on our philosophical mindset.

"God can't learn."

Well, it depends on your definition of "learn." If one were to hold that God "learns" in ways consitent with all the other attibutes Scripture attributes to Him, then more power to them.

[doogieduff]

Today @ 02:29 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=91318#post91318)
nfactor13131313:

I don't think the Bible ever says anything quite so explicitly, though it does indicate that God does not perceive time as humans would (example, a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and vice versa).

I think this verse just shows that God does not "age" so to speak. We know a lifetime as about 70 years, and naturally percieve life as such. God has been around forever, and a thousand years to him probably does feel like a day does to us just because He's been around for so long! A day to me in kindergarten felt like forever, but now, since I've lived for so much longer, a day just blows by...



Taking relativity theory into account, though, what time frame could we say God has if God does have one? Relative speed as well as being close to gravity sources can alter your time frame apparently (like in the twin paradox and other weird things like that). And tachyons are even stranger.
So if we did say that God is in time pretty much as we are, is it Earth Local Time, or what?
Is time simply an element of this Creation, or is it something that any and every being would experience regardless, including God?


Given how weird time seems to be given just our current scientific understanding, I guess it's difficult for me to say what time would mean to God if God is not subject to the laws of physics as we currently understand them.

What do you think?

I don't think time is something to be in or out of, it's just a unit of measurement. Time didn't start when God created the earth, because, technically, we could measure with our units of time how long God existed prior to creation. Of course it would be infinite, but you get my point.

[Kenny]

P.S. On ways God might be said to “learn”:

If one defines ‘learn’ as ‘obtain knowledge one did not have before” then God might be said to learn in a couple of different ways:

First, perhaps one could say that God’s free knowledge (His knowledge of what He Himself has freely chosen to do as opposed to His natural knowledge of all contingent possibilities) was learned. Even if God’s free knowledge and God’s natural knowledge (put middle knowledge in there if you want, but I don’t believe it exists in a way that is distinct from God’s natural knowledge) come into being simultaneously (as classical theology maintains), God’s natural knowledge is logically prior to God’s free knowledge and contingent upon God’s will. So, one might say that God’s free knowledge is knowledge which God did not posses “before” (in a logical sense) He decided which contingent possibilities to actualize and therefore that it is learned knowledge.

Second, if an A theory of time holds, then God must know the truth values of tensed facts (via the doctrine of omniscience) and these truth values change as time passes. If A is occurring now, then the proposition ‘A is occurring now’ is true, but that proposition may not be true at a latter time. Instead, perhaps the proposition ‘A occurred in the past, but is not occurring now’ might become true. In that case, when the second proposition became true, God would know a fact that He did not know before (because it wasn’t a fact before).

But, since I think the classical doctrine of omniscience is Biblical, I don’t believe that it is Biblical to say that God can learn “surprising facts” (i.e. facts that God did not know would become true at a later time).

God Bless,
Kenny

P.P.S. Sorry about the color. My wife was watching me post and she wanted me to "make it purple."

[mickiel]

That superseeds time. Time, by defacto, has a beginning, and physically it will end. Time is simply measurement of Gods predestined thoughts in the physical realm. In Rev. 1:1, John was given a future view of things that had not even occured. God could show him these things, because God is alive in our past, he is alive and living in our present, he is alive and living in our future, he exist in all three time frames at the same time. We cam only exist in one. In Rev. 1:17, Jesus said he is the first and the last. He means he began time and will end it. There is no time, or measurement of Gods predestined physical doings, in eternity. Notice vs. 19, John was told to write the things he has seen, the things which are, and the things which shall take place after these things. All these events can be measured and cataloged, which is what time is, simply a temporary catalog of God.

All of the seals and trumpets in Revelation has to do with time. Time is not outside of God, it is inside of him, as are all things. All things that exist come from the mind of God. Study the seals and trumpets and bowls in Rev., they all are things God does in time, and they all will come to an end, as will time itself. Rev. 21:4, marks the end of time itself. Time is a "first thing", and the first things will pass away. God does not measure time, we do. Jesus can say behold i come quickly, to us that may take thousands of years, its been over 2 thousand years since he said he was comeing quickly. Time is nothing to them. Time is one of the reasons i do not accept the eternal burning in hell teaching, its insane once you look at how long forever really is. Imagine God tortureing someone for 99999 billion, 8888 trillion, 777thousand, 666quadrillion billiob quadrillion years constantly with no break, no mercy, and just think, even after all these years of suffering, they haven't even begun, and this will never never end. Its no way God would do something as crazy as that.

[doogieduff]

Yesterday @ 10:28 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=91709#post91709)
mickiel:

That superseeds time. Time, by defacto, has a beginning, and physically it will end. Time is simply measurement of Gods predestined thoughts in the physical realm. In Rev. 1:1, John was given a future view of things that had not even occured. God could show him these things, because God is alive in our past, he is alive and living in our present, he is alive and living in our future, he exist in all three time frames at the same time. We cam only exist in one. In Rev. 1:17, Jesus said he is the first and the last. He means he began time and will end it. There is no time, or measurement of Gods predestined physical doings, in eternity. Notice vs. 19, John was told to write the things he has seen, the things which are, and the things which shall take place after these things. All these events can be measured and cataloged, which is what time is, simply a temporary catalog of God.

All of the seals and trumpets in Revelation has to do with time. Time is not outside of God, it is inside of him, as are all things. All things that exist come from the mind of God. Study the seals and trumpets and bowls in Rev., they all are things God does in time, and they all will come to an end, as will time itself. Rev. 21:4, marks the end of time itself. Time is a "first thing", and the first things will pass away. God does not measure time, we do. Jesus can say behold i come quickly, to us that may take thousands of years, its been over 2 thousand years since he said he was comeing quickly. Time is nothing to them. Time is one of the reasons i do not accept the eternal burning in hell teaching, its insane once you look at how long forever really is. Imagine God tortureing someone for 99999 billion, 8888 trillion, 777thousand, 666quadrillion billiob quadrillion years constantly with no break, no mercy, and just think, even after all these years of suffering, they haven't even begun, and this will never never end. Its no way God would do something as crazy as that.

John wasn't necessarily given a view of future things to come, but rather a vision of something, what makes you think Revelation will happen like it says?

Jesus being first and last has nothing to do with creating and ending time.

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 03:18 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=91967#post91967)
doogieduff:



John wasn't necessarily given a view of future things to come, but rather a vision of something, what makes you think Revelation will happen like it says?

Read Rev. 1:1 Says very plainly these things shown to John MUST take place, your skeptisim cannot change that fact. I think what God revealed will happen exatly like he said, because i view God as exact and percise.



Jesus being first and last has nothing to do with creating and ending time.

I strongly disagree with that thinking. Time is nothing but Gods physical clock, Jesus is first and preeminet in all things created, including time. In John 1:1, in "a" beinning, the word was with God, this is actualy the creation of time. Read vs. 3, Jesus begins everything, and will end those things predetined to end.

[famousGandalf7]

Well, I believe that God exists in the Spirit-Realm, which is in eternity, and is not subject to time. He sits on the circle of the earth, which, I believe is time. Einstien theorized that this is the reason that the earth is round, matter is a 'warp' in the 'true' space-time continuum, which is eternal.

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: " -- Isaiah 40:22

I believe that He said that Jesus was slain from the foundation of the earth.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." -- Revelation 13:8

I also believe that He is the ONLY One who can speak in the future perfect tense, which is the way that His holy prophets spoke.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: " -- Isaiah 46:10

Personally, I believe that He prophecied every one of the elect into His Book of Life, before the creation began. He planned this whole shootin' match from the get-go.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29, 30

I have developed these theories about God by study and by observation. I also believe that if you study the Bible and listen to the Spirit of Wisdom as you do, you will find that there is NONE that can teach Him anything. I just can't picture God going: :doh: "Why didn't I think of that?"

Just as a side-note, I also believe that when one dies, the eternity we enter is the same eternity that all the ones who have gone 'before' (from our perspective) us have gone. The time of one's death will not be any different from anyone else's death, and will be at the same instant in eternity, which is not something we (human beings with a limited number of brain cells) can even comprehend, much less describe. Eternity does not have a clock, and God is the Ancient of Days to us, because He has ALWAYS been, not because He is Old, but because He is Eternal. His Knowledge is Eternal, as is His Existence.

[mickiel]

Today @ 01:32 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=93153#post93153)
famousGandalf7:

Well, I believe that God exists in the Spirit-Realm, which is in eternity, and is not subject to time. He sits on the circle of the earth, which, I believe is time. Einstien theorized that this is the reason that the earth is round, matter is a 'warp' in the 'true' space-time continuum, which is eternal.

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: " -- Isaiah 40:22

I believe that He said that Jesus was slain from the foundation of the earth.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." -- Revelation 13:8

I also believe that He is the ONLY One who can speak in the future perfect tense, which is the way that His holy prophets spoke.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: " -- Isaiah 46:10

Personally, I believe that He prophecied every one of the elect into His Book of Life, before the creation began. He planned this whole shootin' match from the get-go.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29, 30

I have developed these theories about God by study and by observation. I also believe that if you study the Bible and listen to the Spirit of Wisdom as you do, you will find that there is NONE that can teach Him anything. I just can't picture God going: :doh: "Why didn't I think of that?"

Just as a side-note, I also believe that when one dies, the eternity we enter is the same eternity that all the ones who have gone 'before' (from our perspective) us have gone. The time of one's death will not be any different from anyone else's death, and will be at the same instant in eternity, which is not something we (human beings with a limited number of brain cells) can even comprehend, much less describe. Eternity does not have a clock, and God is the Ancient of Days to us, because He has ALWAYS been, not because He is Old, but because He is Eternal. His Knowledge is Eternal, as is His Existence.

Very well written.

[famousGandalf7]

.

[doogieduff]

Today @ 06:32 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=93153#post93153)
famousGandalf7:

Well, I believe that God exists in the Spirit-Realm, which is in eternity, and is not subject to time. He sits on the circle of the earth, which, I believe is time. Einstien theorized that this is the reason that the earth is round, matter is a 'warp' in the 'true' space-time continuum, which is eternal.

So is God not here on earth? Is He just above the earth? I thought He was omnipresent?



"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: " -- Isaiah 40:22

I believe that He said that Jesus was slain from the foundation of the earth.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." -- Revelation 13:8

This verse says nothing about Jesus being slain from the foundation of the world. John recognized Jesus as the Lamb.

John 1:29
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, 'Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

It's clear here that John knew Jesus as the lamb. This is very important and we'll touch back on it in a minute. Many passages talk about the Book of Life. Phillipians 4:3, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8, Revelation 20:12, Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:27, and Revelation 22:19. Let's focus on the 3 verses here which are relevant to our discussion.

Revelation 17:8
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

This verse clearly tells us that the Book of Life is from the foundation of the world. I don't think there's really any arguement here. Next verse...

Revelation 21:27
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

This verse clearly tells us that the Book of Life is the Lamb's. It belongs to Him.

Now let's reread the verse with this knowledge of what's going on:

Revelation 13:8
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life (whose book of life?) of the Lamb slain (when is the book from?) from the foundation of the world.

You see, John knew Jesus as the Lamb, yet when he wrote Revelation around 90 AD, Jesus had already been crucified, so John now knew Him as the Lamb slain. So that's why John wrote the verse as he did.



I also believe that He is the ONLY One who can speak in the future perfect tense, which is the way that His holy prophets spoke.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: " -- Isaiah 46:10

What are you saying this verse implies? A referee declares the end from the beginning of a football game yet has no idea what will happen in between.



Personally, I believe that He prophecied every one of the elect into His Book of Life, before the creation began. He planned this whole shootin' match from the get-go.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29, 30

I guess I would then ask, if this were true then how can somebody's name be blotted out?

Revelation 3:5
5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

This verse does not fit in with your reasoning.



I have developed these theories about God by study and by observation. I also believe that if you study the Bible and listen to the Spirit of Wisdom as you do, you will find that there is NONE that can teach Him anything. I just can't picture God going: :doh: "Why didn't I think of that?"

I think you have been indoctrinated by a calvinist!



Just as a side-note, I also believe that when one dies, the eternity we enter is the same eternity that all the ones who have gone 'before' (from our perspective) us have gone. The time of one's death will not be any different from anyone else's death, and will be at the same instant in eternity, which is not something we (human beings with a limited number of brain cells) can even comprehend, much less describe. Eternity does not have a clock, and God is the Ancient of Days to us, because He has ALWAYS been, not because He is Old, but because He is Eternal. His Knowledge is Eternal, as is His Existence.

So are we sitting in the heavenlies right now watching this conversation?

[chance]

05-09-2003 @ 05:28 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=91709#post91709)
mickiel:

That superseeds time. Time, by defacto, has a beginning, and physically it will end. Time is simply measurement of Gods predestined thoughts in the physical realm. In Rev. 1:1, John was given a future view of things that had not even occured. God could show him these things, because God is alive in our past, he is alive and living in our present, he is alive and living in our future, he exist in all three time frames at the same time. We cam only exist in one. In Rev. 1:17, Jesus said he is the first and the last. He means he began time and will end it. There is no time, or measurement of Gods predestined physical doings, in eternity. Notice vs. 19, John was told to write the things he has seen, the things which are, and the things which shall take place after these things. All these events can be measured and cataloged, which is what time is, simply a temporary catalog of God.

All of the seals and trumpets in Revelation has to do with time. Time is not outside of God, it is inside of him, as are all things. All things that exist come from the mind of God. Study the seals and trumpets and bowls in Rev., they all are things God does in time, and they all will come to an end, as will time itself. Rev. 21:4, marks the end of time itself. Time is a "first thing", and the first things will pass away. God does not measure time, we do. Jesus can say behold i come quickly, to us that may take thousands of years, its been over 2 thousand years since he said he was comeing quickly. Time is nothing to them. Time is one of the reasons i do not accept the eternal burning in hell teaching, its insane once you look at how long forever really is. Imagine God tortureing someone for 99999 billion, 8888 trillion, 777thousand, 666quadrillion billiob quadrillion years constantly with no break, no mercy, and just think, even after all these years of suffering, they haven't even begun, and this will never never end. Its no way God would do something as crazy as that.

Did God exist before time began? Or did God begin to exist when He created time? Will there be a time after time ends?

[garthoverman]

05-08-2003 @ 09:29 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=91318#post91318)
nfactor13131313:

Taking relativity theory into account, though, what time frame could we say God has if God does have one? Relative speed as well as being close to gravity sources can alter your time frame apparently (like in the twin paradox and other weird things like that).
Relativity Theory tells us that space and time are inseperable. If God is in space, He is necessarily in time. I've heard some propose that God can enter and leave space-time at will such that he can exist "outside it" but subject Himself to it were he to enter our plane. Personally, I find these propositions lacking.


And tachyons are even stranger.
Tachyons have not been demonstrated to exist.


Is time simply an element of this Creation, or is it something that any and every being would experience regardless, including God?
Modern physics has reduced space-time to a mathematical abstraction (a "tensor field"), IOW space-time is abstracted from objective reality but is not an inherent property of it. Basically speaking then, space-time only exists in our minds. It may just be the case that we are as "outside of time" as God is.

Yours,
Garth

[mickiel]

As are any speculations on our part. Something being eternal has no gauge, no measurement of moments. To suggest that God may be on any equal plane with humans is rediculus and obsurd. Even when time is suggested as an equal plane. Time is not in Gods vocabulary, as same as the word failure. God does not fail, nor does he consider time. Nothing effects God, and he does not put himself into things, all things are in him.

[chance]

Today @ 09:53 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113040#post113040)
mickiel:

As are any speculations on our part. Something being eternal has no gauge, no measurement of moments. To suggest that God may be on any equal plane with humans is rediculus and obsurd. Even when time is suggested as an equal plane. Time is not in Gods vocabulary, as same as the word failure. God does not fail, nor does he consider time. Nothing effects God, and he does not put himself into things, all things are in him.

That was a good example of baseless crap!

Are you familiar with the passage in Revelation that says it was silent in Heaven for half an hour? Rev 8? There is time in heaven and for God who is in Heaven.

[Warcraft3]

garthoverman:
So we meet again Garth :smile:


I've heard some propose that God can enter and leave space-time at will such that he can exist "outside it" but subject Himself to it were he to enter our plane. Personally, I find these propositions lacking.

I do believe that I am that person you speak of. I made the following statements in a recent post......


.......... I believe God does indeed exist in an infinately dimensional reality (which our universe is a subset of) and so does exist outside of time. In a way, this means He also exists inside of time, but only as a subset of His more infinite existance. He has the ability to move both in and out of our dimensions at will...........


......... So my view is that God exists outside of time, but yet in a way He also experiences it.

I will try to defend my position against Garthoverman sometime on Sunday since I have Reserves this weekend. I have enjoyed our past debates Garth, and I look forward to doing this.....
:fight: to your arguments.
:teeth:

Until Sunday then.....


Russ

[garthoverman]

Today @ 11:09 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113118#post113118)
steadele:

I will try to defend my position against Garthoverman sometime on Sunday since I have Reserves this weekend. I have enjoyed our past debates Garth, and I look forward to doing this.....
:fight: to your arguments.
:teeth:
I can just hear the omninous musical score playing in the background.....

DUMMMM... DUMMMM... DA-DUMMMM.... DUM...DA-DUM-DUM-DUM-DUM-DUMMMMMM..... :eek:


Until Sunday then.....
PISTOLS AT DAWN!!! http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rough/comeandgetsome.gif

Yours,
Garth

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 10:34 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113092#post113092)
chance:



That was a good example of baseless crap!

Are you familiar with the passage in Revelation that says it was silent in Heaven for half an hour? Rev 8? There is time in heaven and for God who is in Heaven.

If you believe a half an hour exist in heaven, which is in eternity, then your understanding is baseless crap.

[chance]

Today @ 04:17 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113354#post113354)
mickiel:



If you believe a half an hour exist in heaven, which is in eternity, then your understanding is baseless crap.

Revelation 8:1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

FYI, eternity is just a word that means a very long time.

[mickiel]

Today @ 11:17 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113500#post113500)
chance:



Revelation 8:1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

FYI, eternity is just a word that means a very long time.

The half an hour was the percetion of John, he felt the space of time, he was the person IN time , at the time, not those in heaven. John was born in time, lived in time, so he views all things in time, he can do no less. Eternity cannot be measured, time can, these two words do not define each other. That is contridiction. Eternity does not mean a long, it means devoid of time.

[Theolog]

Here’s something to put in the old theological philosophical peace pipe and fire up.

Time is a method for cognizing events. Without time there is only one event.

Time and perception of it is relative to the speed of light.

The Doppler shift suggests that the speed of light is not fixed but rather slowing down.

Infinite light speed changes everything.

An infinite light speed would make all matter transparent and crystal clear.

In Revelation 20 John describes the Kingdom with transparent matter and the light source as infinite. And events are taking place.

The Bible and logic clearly teach events take place in heaven. To say God is not in time is to say that reality is only one event to God, twisted logic at best.

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 02:49 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113562#post113562)
Theolog:

Here’s something to put in the old theological philosophical peace pipe and fire up.

Time is a method for cognizing events. Without time there is only one event.

Time and perception of it is relative to the speed of light.

The Doppler shift suggests that the speed of light is not fixed but rather slowing down.

Infinite light speed changes everything.

An infinite light speed would make all matter transparent and crystal clear.

In Revelation 20 John describes the Kingdom with transparent matter and the light source as infinite. And events are taking place.

The Bible and logic clearly teach events take place in heaven. To say God is not in time is to say that reality is only one event to God, twisted logic at best.

I maintain that God is not in time, time is in God, as is all things. Although simple to me, i understand the inability to comprehend something that has no beginning or end, or is unaffected by time. I tend to lean toward reality being one event to God, which futher amazes me as i learn of him. Time is measurement, reduced to its simple definition, i maintain God cannot be measured. Its just not possible to place him in a measurement, or a time space. Space must be occupided by matter because space is physical, the spiritual world is not space or matter, therefore it cannot be occupied, it just is there. For example, what are the parimeters of heaven? Can heaven be measured, no it cannot, it does not occupy space, space is physical, you cannot use physical to understand spiritual.

[geebob]

Kenny, who has formal training in both philosophy and physics explains in the following link that physics is not decisive on this topic. The post linked and his next post are most relevent to that particular issue. He believes God is timeless here so it's not a bias against the position that drives him on this observation.

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=65607#post65607


Can heaven be measured, no it cannot, it does not occupy space, space is physical, you cannot use physical to understand spiritual.

physics may not fully describe time, and if it is of the presentist sort of thing, current physics does not. A definite now for all of existence may not be explained fully or at all by physicallaty but rather by metaphysics.

[mickiel]

Today @ 06:55 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=114212#post114212)
geebob:

Kenny, who has formal training in both philosophy and physics explains in the following link that physics is not decisive on this topic. The post linked and his next post are most relevent to that particular issue. He believes God is timeless here so it's not a bias against the position that drives him on this observation.

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=65607#post65607



physics may not fully describe time, and if it is of the presentist sort of thing, current physics does not. A definite now for all of existence may not be explained fully or at all by physicallaty but rather by metaphysics.

Metaphysics cannot explain God. No human vernacular can. Nothing in the vocabulary of humanity can explain God, it is a futile effort.

[geebob]

Then there's nothing more to talk about. Now we can close down this site!

:cheers:

for example, you couldn't say:


time is in God,

as that meaningfully describes a relation that God himself has


I tend to lean toward reality being one event to God, which futher amazes me as i learn of him.

which says that there is something that is something to God which gives us an insight to his nature, but that would give the vernacular too much credit.



But there's no reason that God had to make us so dumb that we couldn't meaningfully understand him and communicate that understanding with each other. If God couldn't do such a thing, then he clearly isn't omnipotent. And if he can, with scripture as an authority where God allegedly uses human language to reveal himself, there is no reason to assume that he created our minds with such that he is so inneffable to us.

If God is a certain way, and he understands himself, then there it is perfectly intelligible that means that there is at least one entity in existence who has an understanding of God. And if there is one entity that has that understanding, there is no reason that there can't be at least two or more entities with that understanding or a decent degree of that understanding. And if there are more than two, then they should be able to communicate this understanding back and forth.

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 08:14 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=114468#post114468)
geebob:

Then there's nothing more to talk about. Now we can close down this site!

:cheers:

for example, you couldn't say:


time is in God,

as that meaningfully describes a relation that God himself has



which says that there is something that is something to God which gives us an insight to his nature, but that would give the vernacular too much credit.



But there's no reason that God had to make us so dumb that we couldn't meaningfully understand him and communicate that understanding with each other. If God couldn't do such a thing, then he clearly isn't omnipotent. And if he can, with scripture as an authority where God allegedly uses human language to reveal himself, there is no reason to assume that he created our minds with such that he is so inneffable to us.

If God is a certain way, and he understands himself, then there it is perfectly intelligible that means that there is at least one entity in existence who has an understanding of God. And if there is one entity that has that understanding, there is no reason that there can't be at least two or more entities with that understanding or a decent degree of that understanding. And if there are more than two, then they should be able to communicate this understanding back and forth.

Heres what God himself says of what humans think of him; Isaiah 40:17, what we think of him is to him LESS than nothing and meaningless. God is not partial to human thought,Gal. 2:6, His thoughts are not on our plain, and ours cannot be on his, Isaiah 55:9. Everyone , because of sin, has fallen short in their understanding of God. Jeremiah states it differently, in 16:19, our fathers inherited nothing but lies about God, conversations that profit no one. I maintain that no one understands God, religon is proof of that. Religon is distorted, always has and will be. And one of the reasons it is, because men don't know what they are talking about.

[mickiel]

Anything that exist, does so because it is in Gods mind. In Job 42:2 God can do all things he wants to do, no purpose of his can be stopped. But the mind of man seeks to stop God. For example, Job 23:13 states this again, what God desires to do, his will will be done. 1Tim. 2:4, he desires all men to be saved, according to the bible, God is going to save all mankind, Jesus is called the savior o the world, but christians are teaching a totally oppisite view of salvation, they are teaching hell and condemnation--- why is this? Because they have THEIR OWN minds made up, they want most men to suffer, they desire it. Their thoughts are not Gods thoughts. Gods thoughts are reality, time is a reality because it exist in the mind of God, as does the total salvation of all of his children. Minds out of step with God cannot see this.

[geebob]

Isaiah 40:17, what we think of him is to him LESS than nothing and meaningless.

that had nothing to do with what we think of him. It said that the nations were nothing to him. It was hyperbole showing that God is not moved by the pagans (the alters of lebanon are not enough). I see no reason to generalize this inot a philosophical absolute.

And if you want to insist that what we think of him is less than meaningless, then so much for your posts about God. They are less than meaningless.


God is not partial to human thought,Gal. 2:6

How on earth did you derive anything remotely resembling that claim from that passage. Paul was speaking of mistakes of the Judaizers.


His thoughts are not on our plain, and ours cannot be on his, Isaiah 55:9.

this is one of the most abused of verses. God's ways are not our ways in that where we would not show mercy, he would. I see no reason to interpret the verse beyond it's context into a philosophical absolute.


Jeremiah states it differently, in 16:19, our fathers inherited nothing but lies about God, conversations that profit no one.

hyperbole refering to the israelites abandonment of the true God that they DID have.


Religon is distorted, always has and will be. And one of the reasons it is, because men don't know what they are talking about.

exactly. just check out the plank in the eye in the distorted scriptural interpretation two posts up.

[mickiel]

Its useless, your blind as a bat. You actually believe we understand God. You think he is concerned with our thoughts. God is majestic in holiness, Ex. 15:11, the majestic glory in 2 Pet. 1:17, the light of 1 John 1:5, no flesh concerns him, no flesh can glory in his presence. God has already taken care of men, its a done deal called salvation, and christians have distorted that message. The funny thing is, they don't know they are distorting it, as you don't know about God.

[geebob]

This is one reason i grow tired of using scripture

when one is fond of distorting the word, I would hope he would grow weary of it.

Mickiel, I don't recognize you as an authority. I don't expect you to recognize me as one either. But without a common authority which is examined with scrutiny and critical reasoning, such as your scriptural citations lack, there is little point in discussion.

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 04:44 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=115019#post115019)
geebob:



when one is fond of distorting the word, I would hope he would grow weary of it.

Mickiel, I don't recognize you as an authority. I don't expect you to recognize me as one either. But without a common authority which is examined with scrutiny and critical reasoning, such as your scriptural citations lack, there is little point in discussion.

Never let it be said that i hold back person who is leaving, i force my views on no one. True knowledge comes from God, the builder of all things. And through Jesus, nothing can be hiddened from his sight, all things are open to him. Men are not this way. Men are dull of hearing, lost by the elementary principles of the oracles of God. They have come to need milk, not meat. You are correct, there is no point in my discussion with you, your spirit is transparent, i see through it. Your understanding is the same, reflecting your own reasonate.

[Kenny]

Today @ 01:57 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=115975#post115975)
mickiel:



Never let it be said that i hold back person who is leaving, i force my views on no one. True knowledge comes from God, the builder of all things. And through Jesus, nothing can be hiddened from his sight, all things are open to him. Men are not this way. Men are dull of hearing, lost by the elementary principles of the oracles of God. They have come to need milk, not meat. You are correct, there is no point in my discussion with you, your spirit is transparent, i see through it. Your understanding is the same, reflecting your own reasonate.

Is it, perhaps, even conceivable that the log is in the other eye?

[garthoverman]

mickiel:
Anything that exist, does so because it is in Gods mind.
So are you a panentheist, then?

Panentheism
A model of the relation between God and the universe which regards the whole created order as contained within God, and yet considers that this does not exhaust the divine being.
http://www.meta-library.net/theogloss/pnenth-body.html

Yours,
Garth

[Warcraft3]

Sorry my response is a bit late......
garthoverman:



Relativity Theory tells us that space and time are inseperable. If God is in space, He is necessarily in time. I've heard some propose that God can enter and leave space-time at will such that he can exist "outside it" but subject Himself to it were he to enter our plane. Personally, I find these propositions lacking.
What exactly do you find lacking about the "Russ theory" of Gods relationship to space time?



Tachyons have not been demonstrated to exist.
Yeah, Garth is correct about that one.



Modern physics has reduced space-time to a mathematical abstraction (a "tensor field"), IOW space-time is abstracted from objective reality but is not an inherent property of it. Basically speaking then, space-time only exists in our minds. It may just be the case that we are as "outside of time" as God is.
Well there are other things that you can represent with tensors, but that does not mean that they do not exist at all. I do think that our concept of space-time is, to an extent, subjective, but I do not believe that implies that it contains no objective truth whatsoever.
I am not sure I would say that modern physics has "reduced space time to a "tensor field" ". I would say it has described space-time through the mathematical tool of tensors.


Russ

[garthoverman]

Today @ 05:34 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=116109#post116109)
steadele:

Sorry my response is a bit late......

No biggie.


What exactly do you find lacking about the "Russ theory" of Gods relationship to space time?
Falsifiability


Well there are other things that you can represent with tensors, but that does not mean that they do not exist at all. I do think that our concept of space-time is, to an extent, subjective, but I do not believe that implies that it contains no objective truth whatsoever.
It just seems to me that objective reality exists multidimensionally beyond space-time, and that the appearance of space-time is therefore an inherent quality of our physical perceptions but not necessarily an inherent property of objective reality itself. IOW, I don't believe that objective reality is bound by space-time, but instead space-time is something our perceptive mechanisms superimpose upon reality within our minds.


I am not sure I would say that modern physics has "reduced space time to a "tensor field" ". I would say it has described space-time through the mathematical tool of tensors.
"Reduced" may have been poor word choice, but I think that the mathematical representations are all that really exist as space-time. Space-time appears because of the natures of the relationships we perceive between elements of reality. These relationships are described mathematically, but (I believe) they don't have an objective existence. IOW, the relationship is something we interpret in our minds based on our observations, but without our minds to intuit that relationship, it basically doesn't exist.

Yours,
Garth

[Theolog]

Genesis 1 tells us that “God created”. Creating things requires a series of events, the very essence of time. If a person cannot learn this simple revelation from God what would be the point of reading more?:poke:

[Theolog]

Yesterday @ 08:02 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=114976#post114976)
mickiel:

Its useless, your blind as a bat. You actually believe we understand God. You think he is concerned with our thoughts. God is majestic in holiness, Ex. 15:11, the majestic glory in 2 Pet. 1:17, the light of 1 John 1:5, no flesh concerns him, no flesh can glory in his presence. God has already taken care of men, its a done deal called salvation, and christians have distorted that message. The funny thing is, they don't know they are distorting it, as you don't know about God.

Does this mean that you are not a Christian???

[geebob]

Genesis 1 tells us that “God created”. Creating things requires a series of events, the very essence of time. If a person cannot learn this simple revelation from God what would be the point of reading more?

What the defender of timelessness is going to say to this is that the bible is anthropomorphic and they take that to mean that when the bible speaks of God as in time, it is not to be taken at face value as this is merely God's way of accomodating our finite minds. Not that this view of language and metaphores is without problems. I argue against that view of metaphores in this thread: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=49102#post49102

So they would say that the reality that is behind that statement is that God is timelessly creating the world and he is doing so only logically prior to everything else as opposed to temporally prior. He acts timelessly, but the effects of his actions end up in time. It's like a doctor prescribing when a medicine is to be taken. The effect of his action is not in the same temporal order or on a parrallel with his actions.

[Theolog]

I do not doubt that time is necessary for God to cognize all events that will ever happen in an instant of one giant cosmic big bang of consciousness, but however if He plans to separate events which He apparently has, time and space is necessary even for God.

Perhaps this notion of timelessness makes some feel something that resembles spiritual but the idea of timelessness is hardly Biblical nor reasonable let alone spiritual. It is just plain nonsense. It is no wonder that the church is a mess with such looney logic.

Even thinking which is not physical requires a series of events.
Here is a great exercise. Try to stop your intellect from its endless series of events called thinking and you can experience timelessness.

[Warcraft3]

Garthovermen:

I said:

“ What exactly do you find lacking about the "Russ theory" of Gods relationship to space time? ”
And garth responded:

Falsifiability
Yeah, well I really can not argue with you on this one Garth. My theory is neither falsifiable or provable. But, in my defense, any theory on such a thing has those properties. So yeah, you got me on that one.

Garth--1 Steadele--0

Okay I also said:

“ Well there are other things that you can represent with tensors, but that does not mean that they do not exist at all. I do think that our concept of space-time is, to an extent, subjective, but I do not believe that implies that it contains no objective truth whatsoever. ”
And Garth replied:

It just seems to me that objective reality exists multidimensionally beyond space-time, and that the appearance of space-time is therefore an inherent quality of our physical perceptions but not necessarily an inherent property of objective reality itself. IOW, I don't believe that objective reality is bound by space-time, but instead space-time is something our perceptive mechanisms superimpose upon reality within our minds.
I agree with you to a point. Space-time may exist as an objective reality, but may be very different from our limited perspective on it. I do not think the ultimate objective reality is bound by space time, but I do think a "slice" of it may be.

I also said:

“ I am not sure I would say that modern physics has "reduced space time to a "tensor field" ". I would say it has described space-time through the mathematical tool of tensors. ”
And Garth commented:


"Reduced" may have been poor word choice, but I think that the mathematical representations are all that really exist as space-time. Space-time appears because of the natures of the relationships we perceive between elements of reality. These relationships are described mathematically, but (I believe) they don't have an objective existence.
And you may very well be correct that they do not. I do not hold that view myself though.


IOW, the relationship is something we interpret in our minds based on our observations, but without our minds to intuit that relationship, it basically doesn't exist.
Hmmm.........interesting point of view. I can not say you are wrong, but I can not say you are correct either. I guess I am at somewhat of an impasse.

But let me quote a line from the popular book, Why I am completely correct and you are horribly, horribly wrong by Russell Steadele


This is from chapter 1, page 1:
" I am completely correct and you are horribly, horribly wrong."

Yeah, it sure is hard to argue with such an obvious statement.

10.....
9....
8.....
Steadele is about to score........
7.....
6.......
5......
garthovermen tries desperately to hold onto victory.......
4.......
3......
2...
1.......Steadele scores!!!!

An amazing comeback!!!

Final Score-

Steadele: A ridiculously large number

Garthovermen: A pitiful......., sad.........., miniscule......... 1



:teeth:

Okay seriously............

I think you made some good points there Garth.



Russ

[garthoverman]

Today @ 02:16 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=116788#post116788)
steadele:

Garthovermen:

I said:

And garth responded:

Yeah, well I really can not argue with you on this one Garth. My theory is neither falsifiable or provable. But, in my defense, any theory on such a thing has those properties. So yeah, you got me on that one.
But, but, but! My first statement was that I personally find such hypotheses lacking, which was not intended to imply that YOU or anybody else must necessarily reject it. Heck, all it takes is faith, which nearly all Christians will freely admit to exercising. While I might take an occasional jab at what I perceive to be the relative reasonable-ness of whatever faith some Christian might have, I would wager that if your God exists, He would most likely interact as you described. The point should be clear that unfalsifiable does not immediately equal false.



I agree with you to a point. Space-time may exist as an objective reality, but may be very different from our limited perspective on it. I do not think the ultimate objective reality is bound by space time, but I do think a "slice" of it may be.
Yeah, its really hard to say. What's more, my belief that space-time is abstract might be just as unfalsifiable as your belief that we went over at the top of this thread. I don't know because I'm not so adept at concocting experiments that might test such a theory. It just seems intuitively obvious to me, and intuition has historically been my stronger suit.

<snip>


Hmmm.........interesting point of view. I can not say you are wrong, but I can not say you are correct either. I guess I am at somewhat of an impasse.

But let me quote a line from the popular book, Why I am completely correct and you are horribly, horribly wrong by Russell Steadele


This is from chapter 1, page 1:
&quot; I am completely correct and you are horribly, horribly wrong.&quot;

Yeah, it sure is hard to argue with such an obvious statement.

10.....
9....
8.....
Steadele is about to score........
7.....
6.......
5......
garthovermen tries desperately to hold onto victory.......
4.......
3......
2...
1.......Steadele scores!!!!

An amazing comeback!!!

Final Score-

Steadele: A ridiculously large number

Garthovermen: A pitiful......., sad.........., miniscule......... 1



:teeth:

Okay seriously............

I think you made some good points there Garth.
:rofl: :lol: :bow:

That was one of the funniest things I've read on a discussion board in a looooooooooooong time! You got a great sense of humor, Russ! :thumb:

Until we meet again.... :smile:

Yours,
Garth

[Warcraft3]

Garthovermen:

Hey, I am glad you like my sense of humor:thumb: I will respond to your latest post when I get the chance. For now I am posting this in all the threads I am active in.....

**Notice**
This will be my last post in this thread until sometime after June 22. I have to go away with the Reserves for two weeks and I need tonight and tomorrow to pack and get ready. So I will see you all when I get back.



Russ

[Chappie]

I found this article on the net at >http://www.custance.org/Library/Volume6/Part_I/chapter4.html< I found it fascinating, would apprediate any comments.

It's longer than I like to post, but it is interesting..


Time Contrasted With Eternity in Scripture
PEOPLE STILL pose the question that Augustine answered in the opening quotation: What was God doing before He created the universe? To which Augustine had replied, in effect: Since time did not exist, God did not have time to do anything. But this is a situation that we find exceedingly difficult to grasp. Augustine was doubtless perfectly right, and his achievement in sophistication is all the more remarkable because it was solely the result of a mature Christian mind seeking to comprehend something of the real nature of the spiritual world into which every child of God is born again. He did not have the advantage of the scientific discoveries of the past fifty years to give him a clue.

Perhaps it will help a little to consider what the concept of eternity does not mean. To begin with, the Theory of Relativity did not strictly concern itself with a world in which time was non-existent, but rather with a world in which time was relative. The Theory of Relativity, per se, therefore, is not concerned with eternity at all. When we come to the psychological aspects of time, we are again dealing with the relativeness of time, but in this case with its relativeness as experienced, rather than its relativeness as measured. We are still dealing with time, but not with eternity. In the first case, then, the physicist is concerned with measured relativity of time, and in the second the psychologist with the experienced relativity of time. Both are concerned with time. But there is neither measured nor experienced relativity of time in a purely spiritual world, because time belongs to the physical order.

It can be argued, of course, that in experience the passage of time could be so rapid as to be virtually eclipsed. It would then appear that you could have the experience of timelessness within the natural order of things. But I think this is a confusion of terms because it implies that if a thing is small enough, it is no thing at all. This is analogous to saying that there is no fundamental difference between something and nothing; or, to use a more familiar idea at the other end of the scale, that infinity is merely a very, very large number. The basic error here is that infinity differs from a very large number for the important reason that if you subtract one from a very large number (no matter how large it is), you have one less: if you subtract one from infinity, you still have infinity.

This principle has wide application. The difference between a Being who is absolutely righteous and a creature who is very, very good is as great as the difference between infinity and a large number. It is for this reason that righteousness is something which God must credit to us outright; no approach can ever be made by stages any more than one can count to infinity and arrive there. This may seem like a digression: actually it is not.

The really important thing to notice is that time stands in the same relation to eternity, in one sense, as a large number does to infinity. There is a sense in which infinity includes a very large number, yet it is quite fundamentally different and independent of it. And by analogy, eternity includes time and yet is fundamentally something other. The reduction of time until it gets smaller and smaller is still not eternity; nor do we reach eternity by an extension of time to great length. There is no direct pathway between time and eternity: they are different categories of experiences.

The fundamental point to grasp in all this is that when we step out of time, we step into eternity, and we cannot be in them both at once. But God can. In the New Testament, the Lord Jesus testified continually to this capacity. And every child of God, whether in the Old Testament or the New Testament, does pass in one unique situation back and forth from one to the other with remarkable consequences. This will become clearer as we study some of the passages in Scripture that make this assumption. Some passages, because of their familiarity to most readers, will at once come to mind in support of the view that God lives outside the ordinary limitations of time as we experience it.

For example there is the Lord's remarkable statement, "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). If we make the period before Abraham to be represented by the letter A, Abraham's time by the letter B, and the Lord's time of speaking by the letter C, we have the three periods A, B, C amalgamated as one and the tenses confused as though C preceded A. What we might have expected to find would have been the words, "Before Abraham was, I was" -- which would have satisfied our normal sense of time.

But this is not what the Lord said. What He did say is much more significant and is evidence of His living outside of time.It seems desirable, even at the risk of being repetitious, to re-state this situation again in slightly different terms. The subject of the conversation had been the patriarch Abraham. The Lord took Abraham's time as the pivot and spoke of two periods balanced on either side, namely, the ages which preceded Abraham, and all that followed (including the present). He then deliberately picked up the present and put it back before Abraham, but still referred to that distant period in the present tense. Though it was centuries ago, to Christ it was "now."

Even if He were here today, He would still refer to the time before Abraham as the "present" time. Why? Because He is God, and to God there is no passage of time, but all is "present." The reaction of the Jewish authorities to His statement suggests that in some strange way they had understood what He meant. The mystery of God's name, as revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:13,14 ‹ "the One who is existing always in the present" ‹ is unlocked here and undoubtedly determined the Lord's choice of words in speaking to the Jews.

Augustine reflected upon this, and his words reveal his insight. He said, (22) Thy years stand together at the same time . . . nor are some pushed aside by those that follow, for they pass not. . . Thy years are one Day, and Thy Day is not like our sequence of days, but is Today.

One is at once reminded of 2 Peter 3:8: "Beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." This is poetic language in one sense, and the contradiction it implies is therefore permissible by a special kind of license. Yet the very contradiction leaves one with a momentary perception of the kind of timelessness which seems to be involved in God's ever-presentness.

As the writer says ‹ though he certainly would not have formulated it this way ‹ there is neither a slowing up of time nor a speeding up of time with God, but both at once, which is no time at all as we understand it.

Another illustration of this apparent inversion of time is found in Isaiah 65:24, "Before they call, I will answer." Most people have taken this to mean simply that God foreknows what we shall pray for and thus anticipates our needs. But this is not really what it says; it does not actually say that before they prayed God would arrange provision so that the answer might follow immediately. What He says is that the fulfillment of the request will have been completed before the request is made, which would appear to render prayer quite unnecessary in the first place. The question may be asked, If22. Augustine, Confessions, book 11, chap. 13, section 16.God has already answered, why pray? ‹ a question which is meaningful in our time framework but it is not meaningful in God's, where there is no past, present, or future as we experience it.

The reader may recall the statement previously quoted from E. A. Milne in which he pointed out that a quite strict interpretation of the implications of the Theory of Relativity is that "future events have the same kind of reality as past events." Which means, in effect, that from God's point of view the prayer is already answered, because from God's point of view it is already prayed.

It may be thought that this is making far too much of the text. But this is not simply a text; this is God's Word. And while it is profoundly simple, it is also simply profound. Each reader draws from the Word of God that which meets his own level of sophistication, and the child and the philosopher read the same story with equal delight. It is in this sense that the Word of God is truly eloquent, for the words are for children and the thoughts for men.

There is yet a third example of the inversion of the time order, found in Revelation 13:8. Here the reference is to "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (23) Once again, the ordinary rule is to interpret this sentence as demonstrating God's foreknowledge. But it does not say that the Lamb was foreordained to be slain, before the foundation of the world. Or, to invert the sentence, that before the foundation of the world, the Lamb was foreordained to be slain. This is an entirely different thing: it is the foreordination which is before the foundation of the world in these sentences. But in the text it is the Lord who is slain, from the foundation of the world -- slain, in fact, out of time.

This was the sacrifice of God, an event which was timeless in itself. This is a truth which it is by no means essential that a man should understand in order to be saved, but it is a wonderful thing to enter into God's revelation and think His thoughts after Him. The Lord Jesus Christ continually lived in time for our sakes, and in eternity by His very nature. It is in this sense that He could speak of Himself while on earth as "the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13).

We come now with some diffidence to illustrations of this principle that have not always been recognized as such, but which are much more remarkable in some ways. We have said "with diffidence," because at first it will be difficult to escape from common-sense interpretations and penetrate into the real significance of the23. The expression "before the foundation of the world" (pro kataboles kosmou) or its equivalent "from the foundation of the world" (apo kataboles) is found in nine other places in the New Testament: Matthew 13:35; 25:34; Luke 11:50; John 17:24; Ephesians 1:4; Hebrews 4:3; 9:26; 1 Peter 1:20; Revelation 17:8.things revealed in Scripture about the relationship between time and eternity.

These relationships are so apparently conflicting that the revelation about them has to take an apparently contradictory form. And these contradictions have led to some rather weird and wonderful expositions of Scripture in the effort to resolve them. Here is one example. We have every assurance that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8). There is no ambiguity whatever about this statement, and many who have passed on to be with the Lord have, at the moment of departing, expressed their joyful delight when the call to go home was at last received.

But we also find the Lord comforting the disciples as He discussed His going away by assuring them that when He came again, He would receive them unto Himself (John 14:3). Did He mean that they must wait for His second coming before being received into His presence? It seems so. This statement is also unambiguous. Yet these assurances are contradictory. Can they both be true? Undoubtedly they are! Then how can these things be reconciled?

It is here that we apply something of what we now know about time and eternity as different categories of experience. And the light which these two passages receive is found to illuminate many other passages in an equally wonderful way.

The statement that follows requires very careful reading. When any Christian dies, he passes from this realm of time and space into another realm of pure spirit, that is to say, out of time as we experience it into a state of timelessness, the ever-present of God. As he makes this passage, every event in God's scheduled program for the future which, as revealed in Scripture must come to pass before the Lord's return, must crowd instantly upon him. He does not "wait" for the Lord's return: it is immediate. But the Lord's return is an event which, in the framework of historical time, cannot take place until the church is complete and the end of the age has come.

It must happen for him, therefore, that these events are completed instantaneously, though the living who survive him await these events in the future. Yet, for him, those who survive him must in his consciousness also have completed their journey home, and therefore he will not even experience any departing from them, but they with him rise to meet the Lord on His way for His second triumph with all other saints. Within the framework of time, this general resurrection is future, but to the "dying" Christian, it is a present event.

This is the meaning of the Lord's words "The hour is coming -- and now is. . ." (John 5:25). There is no difference between "is coming" and "now is." The thief on the cross said, "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy Kingdom." The Lord who knew that His kingdom was not to come yet ‹ historically speaking ‹ also knew that the man who spoke would "die" that day and in his experience would that very day be with Him in His kingdom (Luke 23:43)!

We have put the word die above in quotation marks: he did not die! While each man dies in so far as his contemporaries are concerned, they therefore need the assurance of resurrection that he may live again. But in his experience he passes at once to meet the returning Lord without any conscious interval and therefore without any conscious dying. "He that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live," said the Lord, speaking to the living who remain to mourn the lost one; but "he that liveth and believeth in me shall never die," says the same Lord to the saint who is about to depart (John 11:25,26).

As each child of God passes into glory, he therefore experiences no death nor the slightest pause in consciousness, nor even any sense of departure from the loved ones who remain. For him, the time that must elapse till they too "follow" is completely absent. They depart with him. Is it any wonder that men can die joyfully in the Lord and show no sadness in "leaving their loved ones behind"?

Now, this can be carried a little further. The experience of each saint is shared by all other saints, by those who have preceded and those who are to follow. For them all, all history, all intervening time between death and the Lord's return, is suddenly annihilated so that each one finds to his amazement that Adam, too, is just dying and joining him on his way to meet the Lord: and Abraham and David, Isaiah and the Beloved John, Paul and Augustine, Hudson Taylor and you and I ‹ all in one wonderful experience meeting the Lord m a single instant together, without precedence and without the slightest consciousness of delay, none being late and none too early.

(24) Enoch saw "the Lord coming with ten thousands of His saints" (Jude 14) ‹ though he was but the seventh generation from Adam when the population was still small ‹ at the very same moment that Stephen, four thousand years later, saw the same Lord about to come (Acts 7:56). In so far as our time sense is concerned, the Lord is seated at the right hand of God in expectancy. But when time was effaced for Enoch and Stephen, the Lord was found ready to return for His second triumph. For us who remain, this event is still future, an event greatly longed for: for those who have gone on, it has already happened ‹ but not without us.24.

This could be the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. It is in this sense that Scripture twice affirms, observing events from our point of view, that no man hath yet ascended into heaven (John 3:13), not even David (Acts 2:34). And yet, when we are absent from the body, we are present with the Lord in heaven. David is not there yet, nor any others, because we are not there!

As we have said, in one body, in one single experience, all pass together to be with the Lord, and all intervening time being eclipsed, the Lord is at that moment on His way back.

This wonderful fact is even found in a kind of allegorical form in a New Testament incident. The disciples had run into a severe storm. Their ship seemed about to be engulfed, with the haven of port far away. Suddenly they perceived the Lord, walking on the water toward them, and a moment later He had entered into the ship. Then there is this remarkable comment: "And immediately the ship was at the land whither they went" (John 6:21 ) ‹ in the Lord's presence and instantly at home, the intervening journey unaccountably eclipsed from the record.

The question may be asked, What happens to our sense of time when we do come back with the Lord? We are then, it seems, to share His reign as active participants over a world of very real space and time. Does this not at once re-introduce us to a temporal orientation? Probably it does. Thinking forward (forward, that is, to us who are still here), it may be that the experience will be like this: At death we pass out of time to be with the Lord, only to return at once into time to reign with Him. We may not be aware of these shifts from one category of experience to another, from time to eternity and back to time. Since the interval here marked by the word Eternity is timeless, there will in effect be no interval at all, and the experience of time will be continuous.

Since we have the assurance ‹ and somehow it is surely a comforting one ‹ that the passing of this old world will be the signal for a new heaven and a new earth, perhaps time will always be with us thenceforth. But we shall experience time not as limitation, but as opportunity. For us now, time is continually running out; then it will be continually opening up. We shall have all kinds of time to do all kinds of things.

So long as we are separated from the desired goal of being with the Lord, it is a comforting thought to know that there will be no consciousness of delay in meeting the Lord and our loved ones. When no such longings are experienced, it will be equally comforting to know that haste is never again required of us. Thus we shall probably have no desire in that new heaven and new earth to escape from time, even if such a thing should be possible.

[geebob]

Augustine was doubtless perfectly right,

Well heres a mistake already! :smile:

Thanks for posting the article. When I have time, I'll give some comments on some aspects that jump out at me.

AS for this:


He did not have the advantage of the scientific discoveries of the past fifty years to give him a clue.

I'll refer you to the link I posted on page two of this thread. The scientific discoveries are not decisive in this issue.

[Theolog]

“Timelessness” or “eternity” is what Buddhist’s call “Nirvana”, “nothingness” or the “void”, Zen Buddhist’s call it “annihilation”. The Acid freaks of the sixties called it “enlightenment”.

For some reason it doesn’t surprise me that a group of Christians are pushing this inane idea that God exists in timelessness. While sounding spiritual, God existing in timelessness is just exactly saying, “God does not exist” as I said a foolish thing for a Christian to say.

The Buddhist’s are right timelessness is nothingness. Without time and space there can only be nothing.
And nothing cannot exist.:rofl:

[Chappie]

Today @ 02:59 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=120150#post120150)
Theolog:

“Timelessness” or “eternity” is what Buddhist’s call “Nirvana”, “nothingness” or the “void”, Zen Buddhist’s call it “annihilation”. The Acid freaks of the sixties called it “enlightenment”.

For some reason it doesn’t surprise me that a group of Christians are pushing this inane idea that God exists in timelessness. While sounding spiritual, God existing in timelessness is just exactly saying, “God does not exist” as I said a foolish thing for a Christian to say.

The Buddhist’s are right timelessness is nothingness. Without time and space there can only be nothing.
And nothing cannot exist.:rofl:

The evidence for your opinion, is it scientific of scriptural....

[markporter]

Today @ 02:59 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=120150#post120150)
Theolog:

“Timelessness” or “eternity” is what Buddhist’s call “Nirvana”, “nothingness” or the “void”, Zen Buddhist’s call it “annihilation”. The Acid freaks of the sixties called it “enlightenment”.

For some reason it doesn’t surprise me that a group of Christians are pushing this inane idea that God exists in timelessness. While sounding spiritual, God existing in timelessness is just exactly saying, “God does not exist” as I said a foolish thing for a Christian to say.

The Buddhist’s are right timelessness is nothingness. Without time and space there can only be nothing.
And nothing cannot exist.:rofl:

I think I would have to disagree with this on several grounds, firstly if time is just another dimension then I don't see why it should be treated any differently from any other. To say that something transcends two or three dimensions is not to say that it doesn't exist within them, just that it has an existence outside of them, and I think that God can transcend all dimensions in this way.

Another point would be that the framework of space-time itself would seem not to be existing in time in the same way as most things do. The universe as a whole doesn't exist 'in' anything, so surely it can't exist?

Forgive me if that's a load of rubbish....I'm a music student really and so have no real knowledge of such things.

[Theolog]

We must keep in mind that our perception of reality is greatly limited. To cognize events beyond the visible light spectrum may seem to some as a different dimension or spiritual it surly is not. The very nature of reality demands the existence of time and space.

No time and space = no reality.

[Theolog]

Today @ 07:18 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=120155#post120155)
Chappie:
The evidence for your opinion, is it scientific of scriptural....


No it is scriptual of scientific.

Hello Rev

like a bad penny huh? always turning up.

Are you going to Try to get me banned from this forum too?

[Chappie]

06-11-2003 @ 04:02 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=120185#post120185)
Theolog:

No it is scriptual of scientific.

Hello Rev

like a bad penny huh? always turning up.

Are you going to Try to get me banned from this forum too?

Not my job here Theo.
I intend to show you due respect. I am not charged with the responsibility of keeping you civil here. I will discuss with you here as long as it does not become antagonistic, when it does, i will move on....

How's Max....

[markporter]

06-11-2003 @ 03:57 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=120181#post120181)
Theolog:
The very nature of reality demands the existence of time and space.

No time and space = no reality.

I disagree, I don't know why, but I do. I've been trying to think up a decent argument, but it doesn't want to happen.

aha...here it is....if they are mere dimensions then I don't see any reason why they can't be transcended, and if they can be transcended then I'm not sure that they are entirely necessary.

[mickiel]

06-11-2003 @ 03:57 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=120181#post120181)
Theolog:

We must keep in mind that our perception of reality is greatly limited. To cognize events beyond the visible light spectrum may seem to some as a different dimension or spiritual it surly is not. The very nature of reality demands the existence of time and space.

No time and space = no reality.

No time and no space = the only definition of the existance of God that we know of. Eternity removes time, which is simply the measurement of moments. So God , being eternal, or impossible to measure what has no beginning point to reference, and no ending to capichulate, will place mankind into eternity themselves. Now, no on can say that God has space to occupy, because space can be measured also. It is not possible for anyone to measure Gods mind, reality is the mind of God. If God wants it to exist, it is then reality. If God has not given his reality spacial measurement, then neither can the thoughts of man. I submit 2 Chronicles 6:18, as evidence that God cannot be measured, therefore does not exist in space, because space can be measured. The heavens, and the highest heavens, both of which can be measured, cannot contain God.

[markporter]

Today @ 08:19 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=122267#post122267)
mickiel:



No time and no space = the only definition of the existance of God that we know of. Eternity removes time, which is simply the measurement of moments. So God , being eternal, or impossible to measure what has no beginning point to reference, and no ending to capichulate, will place mankind into eternity themselves. Now, no on can say that God has space to occupy, because space can be measured also. It is not possible for anyone to measure Gods mind, reality is the mind of God. If God wants it to exist, it is then reality. If God has not given his reality spacial measurement, then neither can the thoughts of man. I submit 2 Chronicles 6:18, as evidence that God cannot be measured, therefore does not exist in space, because space can be measured. The heavens, and the highest heavens, both of which can be measured, cannot contain God.

ah, that's much better....someone that can actually think (as opposed to me.....don't want to offend anyone else by thinking I was referring to them).

[Theolog]

Today @ 12:10 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=122260#post122260)
markporter:



I disagree, I don't know why, but I do. I've been trying to think up a decent argument, but it doesn't want to happen.

aha...here it is....if they are mere dimensions then I don't see any reason why they can't be transcended, and if they can be transcended then I'm not sure that they are entirely necessary.


Reality is really like a multi facetted gem. Instead of the just gazing into one face I suspect Kingdom life will be like seeing at the focal point.

I have a hard time believing that “eternal state” is just one big long ohmmmm, hardly what I would call “life”.

I am not trying to put God in a box or measure Him but surely a “Living God” would experience some type of events. Series of events require some type of time and space.

The Bible seems pretty clear that God experiences events in some way.

The sound of a God that does not cognize events would seem to me to be like a needle screeching sideways across an eternal record.

[mickiel]

Today @ 04:26 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=122642#post122642)
Theolog:




Reality is really like a multi facetted gem. Instead of the just gazing into one face I suspect Kingdom life will be like seeing at the focal point.

I have a hard time believing that “eternal state” is just one big long ohmmmm, hardly what I would call “life”.

I am not trying to put God in a box or measure Him but surely a “Living God” would experience some type of events. Series of events require some type of time and space.

The Bible seems pretty clear that God experiences events in some way.

The sound of a God that does not cognize events would seem to me to be like a needle screeching sideways across an eternal record.

God experiences what he wishes, and ignores what he does. That is a fact that has absolutely nothing to do with him occupying space and time, two totally different things. God does not have to be his creations to understand them, he does not have to experience what he designs, and he is IN NO WAY SUBJECT to his creations, or affected by them. Time and space are creations of God, to suggest that he is imposed by them is inncorrect. In Job 42:2, study and think on this verse. There is NOTHING GOD CANNOT DO, no purpose of his can be intercepted, slowed down, or stopped. This means God cannot be affected by his doings, he cannot be bargained with, manipulated, or interfeared with by his creations.

[Theolog]

Yesterday @ 08:47 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=122651#post122651)
mickiel:



God experiences what he wishes, and ignores what he does. That is a fact that has absolutely nothing to do with him occupying space and time, two totally different things. God does not have to be his creations to understand them, he does not have to experience what he designs, and he is IN NO WAY SUBJECT to his creations, or affected by them. Time and space are creations of God, to suggest that he is imposed by them is inncorrect. In Job 42:2, study and think on this verse. There is NOTHING GOD CANNOT DO, no purpose of his can be intercepted, slowed down, or stopped. This means God cannot be affected by his doings, he cannot be bargained with, manipulated, or interfeared with by his creations.

Where is your Idea about "God created time and Space" from?

I believe that God created everything in time and space but time and space seem to be something that is not just confined to this physical world.

If you take the time to consider what I am saying about “time”, being a way to cognize events, and taking away the time factor stopping all conscious perhaps we can communicate.

I am not trying to put God in a Box or limit him in any way or looking for a fight, just trying to understand the nature of time and space and how Gods eternal nature relates to time and space. While the idea that God lives outside of time and space simplifies this issue I see no biblical support for that conclusion. If God is a living God, which he is, how can he experience life without a series of events?

Rational thought must have a series of events take place even if it is in your mind time is essential. Does God in this timeless state you are advocating think???

[mickiel]

Today @ 03:59 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=122804#post122804)
Theolog:



Where is your Idea about &quot;God created time and Space&quot; from?

Genesis 1:1, is OUR concept of time and space. Most translations render"in the beginning", i believe a more correct rendering is "in A beginning", God created. BEFORE God created the physical world, TIME AND SPACE DID NOT EXIST. God created the heavens, the stars, the universe as we know it, all of these things ARE SPACE AND TIME. All throughout the first chapter of Genesis, notice God is creating things, he says "let there be" this and that, then this stuff simply IS THERE. God has NO BEGINNING, TIME MUST HAVE A BEGINNING, but God IS before time, and God is not a spacial being. He is everywhere, there is no where that God is not there. David said no matter where we go, we cannot escape or hide from God.




I believe that God created everything in time and space but time and space seem to be something that is not just confined to this physical world.

If you take the time to consider what I am saying about “time”, being a way to cognize events, and taking away the time factor stopping all conscious perhaps we can communicate.

I hold no intrest in communicating with that which you cannot comprehend, that is not possible, i do not attempt to reason with the unreasonable. I simply do what you do, rightly devide what we see as truth.




I am not trying to put God in a Box or limit him in any way or looking for a fight, just trying to understand the nature of time and space and how Gods eternal nature relates to time and space. While the idea that God lives outside of time and space simplifies this issue I see no biblical support for that conclusion. If God is a living God, which he is, how can he experience life without a series of events?

God does not need to experience what he is, he IS LIFE, experience is HISTROCIAL, PAST, --- GOD HAS NO PAST, NO PRESENT, NO FUTURE, he is eternal, CONSTANT. You simply cannot comprehend this.



Rational thought must have a series of events take place even if it is in your mind time is essential. Does God in this timeless state you are advocating think???

God thinks, yes. It is simply not possible for God to experience events, any event that takes place, came from Gods mind. God is the fabric of existance, he is the "in betweener", he, and he alone, is the only explination of existance, no laws or boundries you think of can contain him. In Rev. 22:1-5, the creation of time is ended, time will be no more. It frightens me to meditate on this, but we will always be alive, and forever be with God. world without end. It scares me man.

[Chappie]

Time And Eternity

Perhaps time is like a book. It has a beginning, and it has an end. But from beginning to end it will always be there for us to enjoy. Perhaps time is just a single page in eternity..

Will my resurrected body represent a five year old, a twenty five year old, or perhaps a sixty five year old? Or will every age of my life be there for me to enjoy. What if I could visit every page and stage of time not only through my earthly existence, but also throughout all of time? I belong to one page, but I can visit and enjoy any page that I choose, and stay as long as I choose. Every page, but also every paragraph, every sentence, every word on every page....

You know, like I live on a page in 2003, but have a summer home on a page in 600 BC. What if I lived on earth, but was able to instantaneously visit a planet a billion light years away. Stay and learn for as long as I choose. Don't worry about how hospitable the surface is. My body is immune to pain, death, or suffering.

All of time, all of space, and all of eternity: There for me to experience and enjoy. That'll keep me busy for eons and not bored forever.... Now dat's an eternity... And no matter where I am, God is there, and I can still worship and praise him.

Eye hath not seen, ear hath not heard, neither hath it entered into the imaginations of man..... That means that it's better than that....

Scriptures to Revl, come in Revl.. Ok, ok; I was just dreaming.

[mickiel]

Today @ 08:49 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=122975#post122975)
Chappie:

Perhaps time is like a book. It has a beginning, and it has an end. But from beginning to end it will always be there for us to enjoy.

Will my resurrected body represent a five year old, a twinty five year old, or perhaps a sixty five year old. Or could I enjoy every age of my life. What if i could visit every page and stage of time not only through my earthly existence, but throughout all of time. I belong to one page but visit and enjoy any page that I choose, and stay as long as I choose. Not only every page, but every paragraph, every sentence, every word on every page?

You know, like live on a page in 2003, but have a summer home on a page page in 600 BC. What if I lived on earth, but was able to instantaneously visit a planet a billion light years away. Stay and learn for as long as I choose. Don't worry about how hospitable the surface is. My body is immune to pain, death, or suffering.

All of time, all of space, and all of eternity. There for me to experience and enjoy. That'll keep me busy and not bored forever.... Now dat's an eternity... And no matter where I am, God is there, and I can still worship and praise him.

Eye hath not seen, ear hath not heard, neither hath it entered into the imaginations of man..... That means that it's better than that....

Scriptures to revl, come in revl.. Ok,ok, I was just dreaming.



Your imaginations are closer to truth than most expect. The latter verse you quoted is a very percise description of eternity being beyound even our imaginations, what God has in store for us, the salvation of all mankind is one of them.

[Theolog]

Today @ 10:42 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=122887#post122887)
mickiel:



God thinks, yes. It is simply not possible for God to experience events, any event that takes place, came from Gods mind.


first you say God can do anythng
then you say God can not experience anything.

I guess I will move along and leave you to the rev.

[ProChoiceXtian]

No where in the Bible are all theological positions "explicity" stated in terms that require no doctrinal conclusions or carry out the implications of something to its end. When it is said GOD is outside of time or that He cannot learn....these are DOCTRINAL CONCLUSIONS based on the application and implication of more general truths. He is outside of time because He was before time and He is after time. Time is relative to human history. We only know time with respect to our existence. When the bible says GOD is I AM then we know He is outside of time because that is obviously outside of our time. As well, he enabled prophets and apostles to visit in various forms, future events. I don't believe it is a complex idea but one that is concluded based on various declarations such as those. As well, the concept that GOD cannot learn is based in His omniscience. Quite simply, if He is omniscient, and He is, then to learn is to lack knowledge of something and then gain knowlege of that. But do remember as well, this is anthropic language to accomodate the limited intellect of mankind. GOD has spoken clearly to us but certainly His word does not contain all that is true about GOD. Accordingly, the revelation of GOD by GOD to mankind cannot be communicated from one divine mind to another. Hence, the language used describes GOD at times in human terms (anthropic) simply for your frame of reference but you are required to always know that He is certainly not human and even our understanding of omniscience is limited to...well our human understanding of what omniscience is. But his omniscience...by implication means He cannot learn.

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 06:44 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=123494#post123494)
Theolog:



first you say God can do anythng
then you say God can not experience anything.

I guess I will move along and leave you to the rev.

After futher meditation and study, the statement that God does not experience things is inncorect, although i believe he does not learn things, he can experience his creative works. As we watch our children, so can he, just to "experience" what they do, and that does not bear on his existance or ability. For example, God wanted Adam to name the animals, he "wanted to experience" what Adam would call them, God could have named the creatures himself. I think this is an example of God wanting to experience something, which has nothing to do with his omnisense.

[Theolog]

Today @ 09:59 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=124488#post124488)
mickiel:



After futher meditation and study, the statement that God does not experience things is inncorect, although i believe he does not learn things, he can experience his creative works. As we watch our children, so can he, just to &quot;experience&quot; what they do, and that does not bear on his existance or ability. For example, God wanted Adam to name the animals, he &quot;wanted to experience&quot; what Adam would call them, God could have named the creatures himself. I think this is an example of God wanting to experience something, which has nothing to do with his omnisense.

Ok, I think I get it, There is nothing God can not do. God now can experience things but He cannot learn.

If God can travel through time then why doesn't he just look ahead through time instead of living in the now to see what Adam would name the animals??

If God died would time stop??

[geebob]

there's a step in the right direction! Or something like two steps forward though one step backward.

:rockon:

[mickiel]

Today @ 05:36 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=125147#post125147)
Theolog:



Ok, I think I get it, There is nothing God can not do. God now can experience things but He cannot learn.

If God can travel through time then why doesn't he just look ahead through time instead of living in the now to see what Adam would name the animals??

If God died would time stop??

I can give a thesis on the subject, but i avoid long written discourse on websites. As we study our children, we learn things about them, not from them. But eventually human children can teach their parents. This will never be with God. I think he does study some of us, but the study involves ingredients he has installed within the human anyway. It is not easy to understand God. At least not for me. God will slay, Job 13:15, just to rebuild a better ressurection. As you have noted, why not do perfect things in the first place. he pathology of God is different, putting first things last, or the assumed logic of last stuff-- first.

Its hard to say. I cannot entertain the question of if God died, that is foolishness. He is life itself. If it is possible for God to learn, in my view, it is because he simply chooses to do so. If it is possible for God "not " to know something, it can only be because he chooses not to know. He could know what we will do, but perhaps , in certain instances, he chooses not to know until it is done. Adam nameing the animals for example, is not a case of Gods foreknowledge being of nesseccity. Abraham deceiding to obey and sacrifice his son, could be an example of God not wanting to know ahead of time, but still in control of the events. Just wanting tosee firsthand what abram would do, but not "controling Abram", but still protecting the outcome of the event. I mean, God is awesome, he is so powerful, even he must contain himself, or limit himself in some cases.

[Chappie]

Great insights... Interesting

[Theolog]

06-17-2003 @ 11:04 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=125617#post125617)
mickiel:

Its hard to say. I cannot entertain the question of if God died, that is foolishness. He is life itself.


Do you believe the Bible?

As foolish as it may sound to you the Bible says that "God died".

Revelation 1:18 (KJV)


18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

God can do the impossible.

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 03:27 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=127729#post127729)
Theolog:




Do you believe the Bible?

As foolish as it may sound to you the Bible says that &quot;God died&quot;.

Revelation 1:18 (KJV)


18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

God can do the impossible.

I do not view Jesus as God. Jesus is Jesus, God is God, they are one, meaning one each.

[gnosis]

05-11-2003 @ 05:15 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=93290#post93290)
doogieduff:

So is God not here on earth? Is He just above the earth? I thought He was omnipresent?

This verse says nothing about Jesus being slain from the foundation of the world. John recognized Jesus as the Lamb.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." -- Revelation 13:8


It is important we recognize exactly what the lamb of the sacraficial system is. It is not a prophesy but an ante-type, a type that has always existed. Ante meaning 'prior' or 'prior to' while prophesy is present time or pointing forwards in time. You will find another ante-type pointing to the same event in the famous Isa 7:14 verse.

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

This ante-type is an interesting one as it is both an ante-type and a prophesy, the prophesy being fulfilled later in the book while the ante-type is refering to Christ. And again it is found in the virgin birth account of Jesus in the gospels. So I think it is accurate to say that statement is refering to just that, Christ being slain from the beginning.

gnosis