Only the remnant...

[lee_merrill]

Romans 9:27-28 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality."

Now we may ask, "Who makes people be born in one nation or another?" God does, and thus we must conclude that man's choice is not primary in salvation, most Jewish people in Isaiah's day, in Paul's day, and in our day, have not had a really free choice, most of them cannot come, while they are on earth, until their turn comes again, and salvation is based on God's decision, and not ours.

Blessings,
Lee

[Jezz]

Romans 9:27-28 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality."

Now we may ask, "Who makes people be born in one nation or another?" God does, and thus we must conclude that man's choice is not primary in salvation, most Jewish people in Isaiah's day, in Paul's day, and in our day, have not had a really free choice, most of them cannot come, while they are on earth, until their turn comes again, and salvation is based on God's decision, and not ours.
Lee, you cannot make such a huge conclusion from such a small passage, taken out of context. You need to read the passage in Isaiah in question which Paul is quoting, and you also need to read the entire section of Romans (chapters 9-11).

I have written somewhat more extensively on this elsewhere (see here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12137&page=4#post762922)). But in particular, you need to read 11:20-23. Paul states in verse 20 that those who were not preserved as part of the remnant were cut off because of their unfaithfulness. And in verse 23, he states that those who do not persist in their unfaithfulness will be grafted in again.

[lee_merrill]

Lee, you cannot make such a huge conclusion from such a small passage, taken out of context. You need to read the passage in Isaiah in question which Paul is quoting, and you also need to read the entire section of Romans (chapters 9-11).Yes, context is important, glad to hear correction if I've missed Paul's intent here.

Paul states in [Rom 11:20] that those who were not preserved as part of the remnant were cut off because of their unfaithfulness. And in verse 23, he states that those who do not persist in their unfaithfulness will be grafted in again.But the question still remains, that of the time frame. They were cut off because of unbelief, in the past. Yes, they can be grafted in again, but when? It must be outside of this time frame of when "only the remnant will be saved."

During this time frame, most of the Jewish people cannot come, they do not have a really free choice, most of them do not, just as most of the strong do not, or the smart, or the noble (1 Cor. 1:25-31).

Now God makes Jewish people, and strong people, smart and noble people.

And yet most of them cannot come, not now, their choice is not free, "if they do not persist in unbelief" is up to God, and not up to them...

Acts 13:48 ... and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Acts 18:27 ... those who by grace had believed.

Blessings,
Lee

[smaller]

When Paul wrote that not all of Isreal was "Israel" he spoke of the "sin indwelling" every one of them. Israel shall "ALL" be saved, even though in this life they were blinded by the enemies they were attached to. The remnant are the ones who walk in the Spirit (God is Love) in this world.

Israel remains a picture of the elect of God which is every person of mankind.

The portion that is "hated" is the "sin indwelling." Those are the invisible powers that we war against and these "invisible powers" are the vessel of destruction that is formed in every lump of clay called mankind.

The vessels of destruction are the "goat" nations of the devil and his messengers who cannot be seen, but dwell upon and with the "sheep."

Both positions serve God who is greater than "all things."

[Gabriel]

Very interesting ideas being put forth here!

Let's talk more about these vessels fitted unto destruction. Are they not contrasted with the vessels of mercy? How then can we say that those locked in disobedience are objects of God's mercy?

[smaller]

Very interesting ideas being put forth here!

Let's talk more about these vessels fitted unto destruction. Are they not contrasted with the vessels of mercy? How then can we say that those locked in disobedience are objects of God's mercy?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The "mistake" arrives when "we" confuse mankind with the "disobedience" that all are bound to. These are two separate positions.

For example we know from The Word that all of Israel are the Children of God from many scriptures including Deut. 14:1

Without separating mankind from the sin indwelling them false judgments of other people arise.

Some are MORE ENSLAVED than others. This does not mean they do not serve God's Purposes with the demonstration of Eternal Mercy. Perhaps the lowest slaves of sin will be even more greatful for Divine Mercy eh???

[Gabriel]

Eh, do all URists really hate you? why would that be the case?

Thanks for the feedback. I must agree with what you have said.

Peace!

[Alberta girl]

until their turn comes again

Blessings,
LeeGreetings lee_merrill

Could you tell me what you mean by this?

[smaller]

Eh, do all URists really hate you? why would that be the case?

Thanks for the feedback. I must agree with what you have said.

Peace!

When Jesus said you will be hated by "all" for My Names sake Jesus was not speaking of men, but of the sin that indwelling and evil present within all men that Paul called "no longer I."

Every person has these co-occupants and they truly hate all of mankind.

Therefore I am hated by all. So are you, and so is everyman.

enjoy!

smaller

[lee_merrill]

Hi Alberta girl,

Lee: until their turn comes again...

Alberta girl: Could you tell me what you mean by this?
Just this:

Romans 11:25-27 Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Blessings,
Lee

[Jezz]

Yes, context is important, glad to hear correction if I've missed Paul's intent here.
:thumb: No worries. This passage is one of the most misunderstood in modern evangelical Protestantism. The problem is that evangelicals (at least, it has been my experience on this forum) don't know their OT well enough. You really need to read Isaiah if you want to understand this passage - especially chapters 40 to about 56.

But the question still remains, that of the time frame. They were cut off because of unbelief, in the past. Yes, they can be grafted in again, but when?
When can they be grafted in again? When they cease from their unbelief. You're making this a lot more complicated than it is, Lee. :wink:

It must be outside of this time frame of when "only the remnant will be saved."
Why? All that this means is that not all of them will cease from their unbelief.

During this time frame, most of the Jewish people cannot come, they do not have a really free choice, most of them do not, just as most of the strong do not, or the smart, or the noble (1 Cor. 1:25-31).

Now God makes Jewish people, and strong people, smart and noble people.

And yet most of them cannot come, not now, their choice is not free, "if they do not persist in unbelief" is up to God, and not up to them...
No, persisting in their unbelief is up to them. If they

Btw, when Paul says "all Israel will be saved" in this passage, he is referring to the Church. You see, as I explained in my other post (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12137&page=4#post762922), the olive tree is Israel, and the branches are the people of God, and the root of the tree is Christ. The unbelieving Israelites are cut off of the tree - those that believe are not cut off (ie, they remain - they are the remnant). And in addition to cutting off the unbelieving native Israelites, God also grafts believing Gentiles (ie us) on to that same tree - ie, Israel. And so you end up with a tree (Israel) that has some native Israelites, and some Gentiles, and from which some native Israelites have been cut off. Those are the Jews who didn't believe - they were no longer part of the tree (Israel). When Paul says "all Israel will be saved" - he's talking about the Church.

So the "remnant" that Paul is talking about - that is the believing Jews. Ie, the Twelve, himself, the Marys, Joseph of Arimathea, etc, etc.

Note that "remnant" language is used throughout the OT in the prophets. God would periodically send trials against Israel to destroy them, but He always preserved a faithful remnant. In particular, in this passage in Romans Paul is drawing heavily on Isaiah 40ff - you really need to read this passage in Isaiah before you can properly understand what Paul was saying.

[smaller]

Btw, when Paul says "all Israel will be saved" in this passage, he is referring to the Church

Uh huh, right, sure.

Since when did the "church" include "enemies of the Gospel???"

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes

Why is it that people have to twist and turn to see that All of Israel are God's Children and HE WILL NOT BURN THEM, FAIL THEM, OR FORSAKE THEM??? Deut. 14:1/Psalm 82:6 etc etc etc

[Gabriel]

Smaller, your thoughts have blessed me. Especially what you said about the sin in everyman...I shall chew on this along with turkey over the holiday. shalom!

[Tercel]

Is it just me, or do half the posts in this thread make no sense?

Now we may ask, "Who makes people be born in one nation or another?" God does, and thus we must conclude that man's choice is not primary in salvationBut this is irrelevant in Protestant theology, due to the ideas of depravity: Man's circumstances can't cause salvation as man being depraved cannot come to God no matter what his natural circumstances are. This point only makes sense in an Arminianistic perspective where God gives grace to everyone to overcome the nature depravity, thus God would provide some men with what they needed to be saved - being born in the right nation and they would then choose to accept that salvation or not.


Jezz,
That's an interesting idea about "all Israel" = the Church. Not sure I agree though... I'll have a think about it.

[Alberta girl]

most Jewish people in Isaiah's day, in Paul's day, and in our day, have not had a really free choice, most of them cannot come, while they are on earth, until their turn comes again

Blessings,
LeeGreetings lee_merrill

So then you are not suggesting that some individual jew, say from the middle ages, will not be somehow re-incarnated in order to be given a choice he did not get because of the times he lived in. You are then speaking of the jews who will be living on the earth when the 'church age' comes to it's fullfilment. Have I got that right then?

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Lee: They were cut off because of unbelief, in the past. Yes, they can be grafted in again, but when?

Jezz: When can they be grafted in again? When they cease from their unbelief.No, when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled!

Romans 11:25 Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Lee: It must be outside of this time frame of when "only the remnant will be saved."

Jezz: Why? All that this means is that not all of them will cease from their unbelief.Not only they will not, but they cannot! The point to note is that most of them cannot be grafted in again, or else this prophecy is overturned.

Lee: Now God makes Jewish people, and strong people, smart and noble people.

And yet most of them cannot come, not now, their choice is not free

Jezz: When Paul says "all Israel will be saved" - he's talking about the Church.I don't think that works very well, though, for then we have "all who will be saved, will be saved."

So the "remnant" that Paul is talking about - that is the believing Jews. Ie, the Twelve, himself, the Marys, Joseph of Arimathea, etc, etc.Yes, I agree. But what about those who did not come, in Isaiah's day, in Paul's day? Most of them could not come, God said they would not, just as he said most of the strong will not come, either, and God makes people be strong or be Jewish.

Tercel: Man's circumstances can't cause salvation as man being depraved cannot come to God no matter what his natural circumstances are.Yes, man's circumstances don't cause salvation, but God said circumstances indeed indicate how many of a given group of people can come, for the Jewish people, for the strong and smart and noble. Yes, no one can come on their own, but most of the people who belong to these groups cannot come at all, they won't come, thus they do not have a really free choice.

Alberta girl: So then you are not suggesting that some individual jew, say from the middle ages, will not be somehow re-incarnated in order to be given a choice he did not get because of the times he lived in. You are then speaking of the jews who will be living on the earth when the 'church age' comes to it's fullfilment.I believe that people may be able to repent after death:

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, so that they might … live.

And I do believe that after "the full number of the Gentiles" come in, then Israel will have its turn again, and "all Israel will be saved," and also, this cannot refer simply to all the church:


Romans 11:26-28 "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies...

If this is the church, then they have godlessness, their sins are not taken away, and they are enemies of ... the church.

Blessings,
Lee

[Alberta girl]

Hi everyone,



I believe that people may be able to repent after death:

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, so that they might … live.

And I do believe that after "the full number of the Gentiles" come in, then Israel will have its turn again, and "all Israel will be saved," and also, this cannot refer simply to all the church:




Blessings,
Lee
Greetings lee_merrill

I do not believe people can repent after death. I believe God judges the hearts of people who never had exposure to the Gospel. I do not think the scripture supports the idea you present. Thanks for letting me share.

[lee_merrill]

Hi Alberta girl,

I do not believe people can repent after death. I believe God judges the hearts of people who never had exposure to the Gospel. I do not think the scripture supports the idea you present. Thanks for letting me share.

Maybe I am wrong! It has happened before, I must say, so I appreciate your thoughts on this.

Blessings,
Lee