NOVA: "Ancient Refuge in the Holy Land"

[Goose]

Next on NOVA: "Ancient Refuge in the Holy Land"

http://www.pbs.org/nova/scrolls/

Broadcast: November 23, 2004, 8 p.m.
(NOVA airs Tuesdays on PBS at 8 p.m. Check your local listings as
dates and times may vary.)

"From Shimon Bar-Kokhba to Yehonathan...get ahold of the young men
and come with them. And I shall deal with the Romans." So wrote
legendary Jewish patriot Shimon Bar-Kokhba to his supporters during
a desperate uprising for religious freedom in the year 132. In this
program, NOVA returns to the last refuge of one group of
Bar-Kokhba's followers with Jewish historian Richard Freund, whose
bold theories have rocked the world of biblical archeology. The
expedition takes NOVA to a remote cave in the Judean desert, first
excavated by the famed Israeli archeologist Yigael Yadin in 1960-61.
The place is called the Cave of Letters, and the NOVA team is
certain it still holds startling secrets.

[NeilUnreal]

Thanks. I'm pretty active lately in the evening, but this looks worth making time for; I'll try to watch.

-Neil

[Goose]

You're welcome.

But, as the show hits the 40-minute-mark, it becomes clear that he is not going to unearth the Ark of the Covenant. Instead, Freund focuses on proving the wonders unearthed in the commode aren’t stolen Roman objects but rescued items from the Second Temple.

Freund believes the Cave of the Letters is the “Cave of the Column of two openings” mentioned in the “Copper Scroll,” a metallic list of all the treasure Jews saved from the marauding Romans.

According to the Copper Scroll, the bronze treasures should have been buried at 3 cubits deep. They were.

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/24137/format/html/displaystory.html

[Goose]

Anyone get to watch it?

I think what was interesting was that he found 1st century coins on the same level he found what is believed to be the temple utensils with the greek artwork.

[spiritmech]

I looked for it, but my PBS station was showing something else. I may need to ask them.

[NeilUnreal]

Last night was an online RP-gaming night for me so I recorded it and watched it after work today.

It was interesting. The confluence of evidence pointing towards the artifacts as first revolt was good, yet also within the bounds of coincidence. It was intriguing that the Roman scene on the bowl was similar to the scene on the temple artifact depicted on the arch (Titus’ Arch, IIRC). It’s not unusual for one religion to incorporate the imagery of another (look at the Vatican, for example), but I’m guessing it would be a surprise to find out that was the case in official first century Judaism. Still, as was pointed out, Herod was a cosmopolite and Judea was a crossroads of the time.

I also like what Freund said near the end:

If I do have a theological agenda, it’s that sense of discovery. That sense that all that we need to know is not yet known, and that I can play a part in the unraveling of God’s destiny for the world. If that is a theological agenda, it’s also the agenda of science.

-Neil

[Goose]

Anyone get to watch it?

I found it interesting and very convincing evidence that their were hellenist items used within the temple. It was interesting to see a 1st century coin found at the same level of the temple items, when Yadin, and those after him, considered it only a 2nd century cave.

The authentic Netzarim (http://www.netzarim.co.il) have been publishing for years that the 1st Century priesthood, mainly comprised of Sadducees, were puppets of the Romans. The Sadducees were mostly in control of the temple functions.

[Goose]

If the Sadducees were believed to be in control of the Temple and puppets, or even just appeasers to the Romans, then that puts a whole new spin in the Gospels on the late one night trial in the Temple before crucifixion. By logic alone, the trial was an illegal trial as in Jewish law:

capital trials were held by the "Sanhedrin"
capital trials took place during the day, so everyone could participate(not at night, like in the Gospels)
capital trials lasted for at least 40 days, so witnesses had time to come forth(not just a few hours, like in the Gospels)


And with the Pharisees being the majority of the population, this is why the Sadducees probably held this illegal conterfeit trial at night for a few hours while everyone was sleeping. The implications of this suggest that even by the Christian NT, it wouldn't have been the Jewish majority, but rather, a sect of Roman puppets/politicians, the Sadducees, that wanted to see him dead for political reasons most likely. It's also important to note that many of his teachings are Pharisaic in nature, and many of the Pharisees would have sided and defended him. The Sadducees knew the majority would not stand for it.

[Goose]

It's also interesting to note, that the arch in Rome, that depicts the battles of Titus, has a relief of the Menorah that was in the Temple being carried away by Roman soldiers. In that relief, you can see that the Menorah's base has Greek g-ds in a hexagonal pattern. This isn't the same Menorah described to have a 3 pronged base in Jewish literature.

http://www.photo.net/photo/pcd0800/...detail-22.4.jpg

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Sho...15_Menorah.html

[furay]

I found it to be a compelling program. I wasn't too familiar with Bar-Kokhba, so it was interesting to learn about him. The archeologist makes some good points, but I'm not yet sure if I would agree with his conclusion... I'd like to see some more evidence.

[ArchaicGuy]

I disagree with Freund's conclusion that the Cave of Letters is the Cave of the Column mentioned in the Copper Scroll for several reasons. The first reason is during the program line 25 of the Copper Scroll was shown with a pictograph of two verticle lines representing a wadi left of two humps representing the Cave of the Column. It looks something like this: // nn . At the Cave of the Letters site. The wadi is in front of below the caves. The two verticle lines should be horizontal beneath the symbol representing the Cave of the Column. The Cave of Letters, being two entrances with a column between them only one entrance faces east. The other entrance faces South-southeast. North of Qumran there is a match with the Copper Scroll's pictograph of the wadi // and Cave of the Column nn . The wadi is called The river Ha Kippa(River of the Dome) which is south of the Cave of the Column complex near Qumran but the two cave entrances north of the Wadi Ha Kippa facing east towards Jordan. The Copper Scroll gives a location for the Cave of the Column on the way from Jericho to Sacacah. Sacacah is today called Qumran. The Cave of the Column has to be in the area between Qumran and Jericho. The only location matching the decription in the Copper Scroll so far was discovered in September 1968 by Vendyl Jones.

[Sacrificial Ram]

I disagree with Freund's conclusion that the Cave of Letters is the Cave of the Column mentioned in the Copper Scroll for several reasons. The first reason is during the program line 25 of the Copper Scroll was shown with a pictograph of two verticle lines representing a wadi left of two humps representing the Cave of the Column. It looks something like this: // nn . At the Cave of the Letters site. The wadi is in front of below the caves. The two verticle lines should be horizontal beneath the symbol representing the Cave of the Column. The Cave of Letters, being two entrances with a column between them only one entrance faces east. The other entrance faces South-southeast. North of Qumran there is a match with the Copper Scroll's pictograph of the wadi // and Cave of the Column nn . The wadi is called The river Ha Kippa(River of the Dome) which is south of the Cave of the Column complex near Qumran but the two cave entrances north of the Wadi Ha Kippa facing east towards Jordan. The Copper Scroll gives a location for the Cave of the Column on the way from Jericho to Sacacah. Sacacah is today called Qumran. The Cave of the Column has to be in the area between Qumran and Jericho. The only location matching the decription in the Copper Scroll so far was discovered in September 1968 by Vendyl Jones.

I was under the impression Vendyl Jones is one of those archelogical types that find something, and then interpret it to be a fantastic temple artifact to match his rather unique religious beliefs, and to sucker people to giving him donations to try to find other artifacts of religious signifigence.

Do you have an article about this in a scholarly journal, rather than just claims by him?

[ArchaicGuy]

Sacrificial Ram: The road from Jericho to Sacacah(Sp?) comes from the Copper Scroll. As does the pictograph of the wadi and Cave of the Column. That was on the Nova special Ancient Refuge in the Holyland. How does your accusations against Vendyl Jones disqualify the Cave of the Column complex north of Qumran as the site mentioned in the Copper Scroll? It doesn't!!

[Sacrificial Ram]

Sacrificial Ram: The road from Jericho to Sacacah(Sp?) comes from the Copper Scroll. As does the pictograph of the wadi and Cave of the Column. That was on the Nova special Ancient Refuge in the Holyland. How does your accusations against Vendyl Jones disqualify the Cave of the Column complex north of Qumran as the site mentioned in the Copper Scroll? It doesn't!!

Then you have an article by vendyl jones in a peer reviewed archelogical journal on this??

Could you please give me the information about it?

[ArchaicGuy]

Sacrificial Ram: No, I do not have an article by Vendyl Jones published in a peer review publication. What you are clearly implying is that if the archaeologist hasn't published any peer reviewed articles of his work, then in your so called "learned opinion" that person must be a fraud. As was stated in another thread there are many archaeological materials still awaiting publication in peer reviewed journals. Unpublished materials does not disqualify or invalidate the archaeologist's conclusions! However, if you wish to know(Which I doubt that you do) you can read Vendyl Jones work at Qumran in the copies of his Researcher at his website: www.vendyljones.org.il Now answer my question: How does your accusations against Vendyl Jones disqualify the Cave of the Column complex north of Qumran as the site mentioned in the Copper Scroll?