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Rusty T
December 1st 2004, 12:04 AM
I stumbled upon this article from the Zenit news service, but found it very interesting. Here is the link: http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=62694

LITTLETON, Colorado, NOV. 28, 2004 (Zenit.org (http://www.zenit.org/)).- The story of the Holy Grail has spawned numerous works of fiction and fantasy, including popular films. The truth about the actual whereabouts of the cup is less clear.

One scholar, Janice Bennett, author of "St. Laurence and the Holy Grail" (Ignatius), believes that the cup's history can be traced from St. Peter's journey to Rome, to St. Laurence in the third century, and then to its final resting place in Spain.

Bennett holds a master's in Spanish literature from the University of Colorado, and a certificate in Advanced Bible Studies from the Catholic Biblical School in Denver. She is a member of the Spanish Center for Sindonology, based in Valencia, Spain.

She shared with ZENIT why she believes that the Holy Chalice of Valencia is the same cup used by Jesus at the Last Supper.

Q: What exactly is the Holy Grail? How do you answer skeptics who say it is just a myth?

Bennett: For Christians, the Holy Grail is and always has been the cup used by Jesus to consecrate the wine at the Last Supper, the very receptacle that held the blood of Christ in the newly instituted sacrament of the Eucharist.

As such, it has been held in high esteem as a historically authentic object that was used by Jesus himself, the relic of singular importance for Christianity because it serves as a symbol for the Bread of Life.

People of all eras have wondered what has become of this precious relic, which has generated a considerable number of fantastic stories about knights, monks and kings embarking on a quest to find it.

This has been true not only for the people of the Middle Ages, but also for those of us living today, as seen in the continued popularity of the Grail legends and in films such as "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade," in which Indiana Jones discovers a large number of possible grails in the unlikely location of Petra, Jordan.

Unfortunately, the grail he determines to be authentic is the most unlikely historically speaking, because it is made of wood, a porous material that was forbidden for the Jewish Passover.

It is undeniable that Jesus used an actual cup for the consecration, and that this cup is a historical object, not a myth. Perhaps because of the mystery and fantasy that have surrounded this relic par excellence, some modern scholars have created a scenario by which the Holy Grail can be just about anything, from the Shroud of Turin to Mary Magdalene.

Others define the Grail as nothing more than a personal quest, or an exploration of self, or link it with all sorts of ancient legends and fertility rites, leading to a great deal of confusion about what it actually is.

Q: What got you interested in researching its existence and whereabouts?

Bennett: My husband and I visited the Chapel of the Holy Grail in the Cathedral of Valencia in the early 1990s. I thought it rather strange that they claimed to have the actual cup used by Jesus at the Last Supper, because I had never heard anything about it in the United States.

The only information available was a small leaflet that had been poorly translated into English, which mentioned that Pope Sixtus II entrusted the cup to St. Laurence in A.D. 258, and that St. Laurence sent it to Spain in the hands of a Spanish soldier. It also provided a brief history of the relic in Spain.

Years later, when researching relics in the National Library of Madrid, I remembered that leaflet. I searched for information on St. Laurence and found a very interesting translation of a document that was reportedly written by St. Donato in the sixth century, which not only contains a biography of St. Laurence's early life, but also confirms that this transfer had indeed taken place.

At the same time I found a small book written by the priest responsible for saving the relic at the start of the Spanish Civil War in 1936.

As I examined the photos of where it had been hidden during the conflict -- underneath the cushions of a sofa, in the secret compartment of a wardrobe and in a stone wall -- I was absolutely amazed by the difficulties this relic has suffered throughout the ages.

I immediately knew that I had to investigate the history of this cup in depth. The Holy Chalice of Valencia not only claims authenticity, but also has a long tradition and fascinating history that support that claim completely.

Q: What is believed to have happened to the Holy Grail immediately after the Last Supper?

Bennett: Most scholars believe that the Cenacle -- the room where the Last Supper took place -- and the Holy Cup were the property of the family of St. Mark the Evangelist, who served as interpreter for St. Peter in Rome.

St. Mark and St. Peter were very close, and it certainly makes sense that St. Mark would have given the Holy Cup to St. Peter, for the simple reasons that it was very important for the early Christians to use relics in the liturgy and that Peter was head of the Church.

Spanish tradition claims that St. Peter took the Holy Cup with him to Rome, where it was passed on to his successors until the Valerian persecution of 258.

Due to the extreme danger of the precious relic falling into the hands of the Romans, St. Sixtus II, knowing that he would soon be martyred, entrusted the cup to his treasurer and deacon, St. Laurence. St. Laurence in turn gave it to a Spanish soldier with the request to take it to Huesca, Spain, where he knew that his family would care for it.

This very early tradition is supported by many factors: the Roman Canon of the Mass, the fact that the cup is not mentioned in Rome after the third century, various documents and the traditional and historical presence of the Holy Chalice in Spain.

Q: What is your theory about the Holy Grail's history and current location?

Bennett: Most people believe that there are hundreds of possibilities for the authentic Holy Grail, which goes well with the old saying that if all the supposed relics of the True Cross were gathered together, there would be enough wood for a dozen crosses. This is definitely not the case.

It is true that by the 16th century there were about 20 cups that claimed the honor of being the authentic cup used by Jesus at the Last Supper. But today none of these are considered authentic -- with the exception of the Holy Chalice of Valencia and the silver cup of Antioch.

The cup of Antioch has a two-liter capacity and is much too large to have been passed around the table of the Last Supper for the Eucharist. What is interesting, however, is the fact that St. Jerome mentions that there were two cups on the table of the Last Supper, a silver cup that held the wine for the meal, and one of stone that was used for the institution of the Eucharist.

Only the Holy Chalice of Valencia, with its upper cup of agate stone, fits St. Jerome's description of the cup used by Christ for the consecration. When one examines its tradition and history in detail, it is quite evident that everything makes perfect sense. I don't believe that anything could ever disprove the theory that the Holy Grail is indeed the Holy Chalice of Valencia, Spain.

Q: What erroneous tales have modern scholars put forth about the Holy Grail and those involved in its transfer?

Bennett: When speaking about the Holy Chalice of Valencia, one problem has been a lack of substantial, factual information that goes beyond the St. Laurence tradition, and another has been the erroneous claim that there are many Grails in existence that claim to be the one given to St. Laurence by Pope Sixtus II.

Facts are sometimes mixed with false claims and legendary material in such a way that it casts doubt on the possibility of ever knowing the truth.

One serious rival to the St. Laurence tradition, at least in popular opinion, is the legend that Joseph of Arimathea brought the Holy Grail to England.

It is based on the poem "Joseph of Arimathea" by the poet Robert de Boron, who confirms the apocryphal legend of Nicodemus, adding that Joseph brought the Grail to Glastonbury, thus joining Christianity to the bones of the legendary Arthur that are supposedly buried there.

It relates that Joseph collected the blood of Christ in a vessel that had served as a dish for the bread and the paschal lamb at the Last Supper, and later gave it to the Celtic god Bron who took it to the West as a talisman of immortality.

It is not difficult to see that this legend is based on nothing of any substance whatsoever, and the grail in this case is not a historical cup, but rather a dish that doesn't even exist in reality. It is a perfect example of the mixture of fantasy, literature and legend that permeates most discussions of the Holy Grail.

Q: Why should the Holy Grail matter to modern Christians today?

Bennett: The Holy Grail should matter to modern Christians today for the very same reason it has always been venerated through the ages, as the actual cup used by Christ to institute the Eucharist.

How appropriate that this latest "discovery" about the Holy Grail should coincide with the Year of the Eucharist that was proclaimed by Pope John Paul II on the feast of Corpus Christi in June, and began this October. In this yearlong celebration of this sacrament that is so central to the Faith, Catholics are called to honor the Eucharist, to receive it more faithfully and to reflect more deeply on its meaning in their lives and in the life of the Church.

The story of the Holy Chalice of Valencia is a beautiful reminder of the importance of this sacrament in the life of the Church, so evident in the care the vessel used by Christ to institute the Eucharist has received throughout the ages.

The story begins with St. Peter, the first head of the Church, who brought the sacred cup to Rome to be used in the liturgy of the Mass. It continues with Sts. Sixtus and Laurence, both of whom were martyred for refusing to turn it over to the Romans.

The Church in Spain went to great lengths to protect the vessel from the Muslim invasion in the eighth century, and years later we see the same respect and heroic courage in those who saved the cup from destruction during Spain's War of Independence and Civil War.

Thanks to their personal strength and dedication, in 1982 the Holy Father became the very first Pope to say Mass with the relic since St. Sixtus II in the third century, and today Christians worldwide are able to venerate this very special cup.

This is a modern-day miracle that should give us all cause for deep reflection on the importance of the Eucharist in our daily lives, so that we can publicly proclaim that the sacrifice of Christ is for the salvation of the whole world, as the Holy Father desires.

Minnesota
December 1st 2004, 12:12 AM
Didn't you read the Da Vinci Code?

Rusty T
December 1st 2004, 12:45 AM
Didn't you read the Da Vinci Code?
Nope. Should I?

rusty

Minnesota
December 1st 2004, 02:08 AM
Absolutely you should read it. It's a quick, fun read, and will give you a very different slant on what the Holy Grail really is.

TheOneAndOnly
December 1st 2004, 08:00 AM
Minn, have you read Holy Blood, Holy Grail? DVC was partly based on it.

Rusty T
December 1st 2004, 10:44 AM
Uhm, we have very early records as to what the Grail really was. Geesh. Minn, I'm taking applications for a Tweb rival. Perhaps you should apply.

:)

Rusty

Pilgrim
December 1st 2004, 10:52 AM
Do people really think that Christ would have used a jewel encrusted gold cup? Come on, the very design of the cup shows that it is not age appropriate to Christ's time.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3946/santocaliz/

TheOneAndOnly
December 1st 2004, 12:28 PM
Uhm, we have very early records as to what the Grail really was. Geesh. Minn, I'm taking applications for a Tweb rival. Perhaps you should apply.

What do you mean? AFAIK the grail romances predate Christianity and probably originated in Celtic folklore, the Welsh legend of Bran etc. Bran posessed a platter on which any food he dreamt of was instantly obtained. Bran's head was decapitated and placed as an omen, or talisman, in London. This shares some parallels with later grail legends.

The first grail romance was probably by Chretain de Troyes in the 12th century, Les Roman de Perceval. Perceval is the son of a widow lady who embarks on a quest to win his knighthood. On his travels he encounters the mysterious Fisher King, who invites him to his castle for refuge. Here Perceval sees a damsel carrying the "grail". The grail was studded with jewels and golden.
Chretain makes no link with Jesus though, he doesn't explain what the grail is and it's left to the reader (or listener in those days) to ponder.
Perceval doesn't know that he is supposed to ask a question of the grail, "who does one serve with it?" Perceval doesn't ask this enigmatic question which apparently causes a disaster on the land.
Later he learns that the Fisher King is his uncle and he himself is of the "grail family". And since his bad experience with the grail Parcevel makes the strange pronouncement that he no longer believes in god.
This perpelexing grail story is mentioned in Holy Blood, Holy Grail.

Another grail romance was by Robert de Boron between 1190 and 1199, Roman de l'Estoire du Saint Graal. Robert was possibly the first to make the grail a specifically Christian icon. Robert claimed his poem was inspired by a "great book" whose secrets were revealed to him.
Robert claimed that the grail was the cup of the last supper, much like today's images of it. The poem chronicles the lives of the "grail family" in keeping the grail safe. Joseph of Arimathea took the grail and it passed to his brother-in-law Brons, who carries it to England and becomes the "Fisher King". The enigmatic Perceval is said to be Brons gradnson, as opposed to his nephew. This romance is set specifically in the first century, as opposed to the vague Arthurian timeline of Chretain's.


A third romance of importance is the anonymously written Perlesvaus, around the same time as Robert. One theory says that this poem was written by a Templar, yes they had to appear sometime. Authors were almost always attributed to poems as they were held highly regarded in the middle ages., so it seems strange that this oem is unattributed.
The Perlesvaus has much more detailed history than either of the other two poems.
Perceval, again, is on a quest and happens upon a castle where he is received into some sort of order (Templars?) Two masters dressed in white with red crosses perform the rite. Their uniforms are much like Templar robes.
One master claims to have seen the grail and knows of Perceval's lineage. It's interesting that all three poems stress Perceval's lineage, as though his bloodline is important somehow. Perceval is described as holy and related to Joseph of Arimathea. The perlevaus deviates into alchemical symbolism and the like, an art the Templars were supposedly interested in.
One of the masters says enigmatically to Perceval

"There are heads sealed in silver, and there are heads sealed in lead, and the bodies where unto these heads belonged; I tell you that you must make come thither the head of the king and of the queen."-Holy Blood Holy Grail.

Again, like the previous poems Perceval is the Son of a Widow Lady. There is also a lot of Pagan rites and allusions in the poem, strange for a heavily Christianised society.

Now here's the interesting part: A red cross is erected in a forest and a white beast is torn apart by hounds. Perceval watches this as a knight and damsel approach with golden chalices and collect the torn flesh of the beast, kiss the cross and then return into the dark forest. Perceval then kneels and kisses the cross.
All of a sudden,two Priests approach him through the forest and one shouts "Sir Kinght, withdraw yourself away from the cross, for no right have you to come nigh it." Perceval does as told and the priest walks up to the cross, kisses it and adores it.
The second priest then, using a rod, attacks the first priest, removing him away from the cross. Then he continues to beat the cross with his rod. Perceval, shocked, exclaims, " Sir, herein seem you to be no priest! Wherefore do you so great shame?"
The priest dismisses Perceval, saying it is of no concern of him what the priests do. Perceval lets the priest be.

Other strange events occur, such as Sir Gewain being warned by a priest
"for behoveth not the secrets of the Saviour, and them also to whom they are committed behoveth keep them covertly."
So the grail, now involves some sort of secret involving Jesus and this secret is kept only by a select few (the Templars?). The cups and chalices seem to be metaphorical, no?
Gewain eventually sees the grail and upon it is the figure of a child, and Gewain senses this child is a King or royalty of some sort. In Perlevaus the grail consists of a series of images and visions; The first a crowned king, then crucified; A child; a man wearing a crown of thorns; The fourth is somewhat ambiguous; the fifth a chalice. The appearance of the grail is also accompanied by sweet fragrences.
So the grail seems to be far deeper than the shallow interpretation of a cup. It seems to be a series of visions, of experiences, possibly Gnositc, alluding to a lineage or family which Perceval is part of.

The next interesting poem decribed in HBHG is Wolfram von Echenbach's Parzival, written sometime between 1195 and 1216. Wolfram claims Chretain's history is wrong and his grail story is the true one. He claimed it was passed to him by a certain Kyot de Provence, who could possibly be the same as Guiot de Provence, a travelling monk and allegiate of the Templars. Guiot supposedly wrote attacks on the church among other things.
Wolfram unequivocally that there is more to the grail story than meets the eye, and makes clear that the grail is not merelya physical object, but something of great consequence and fate.
Again Perceval, or Parzival, encounters the Fisher King and takes refuge in his castle and witnesses the grail. The grail still is not specified as anything.
Later Wolfram alludes to it being some sort of stone, "lapsit exillis"- stone from the heavens, or possibly a corruption of lapsit ex caelus - the philosopher's stone. Apparently this stone can bring great worldly comforts, bountiful food and drink etc. Apparently it can also call people into service.
"On the stone appears letters incscribed giving the name and lineage of each one, who is to take the blessed journey...Poor and rich alike rejoice if their child is called to join the company... from sinful shame they are more protected than others, and receive good reward in heaven"
Wolfram alludes to the grail being possessed by a particular family or lineage. Also the grail is linked to a castle of Munsalvaesche, a pretty good likeness for Montsalvat, a Cathar stronghold with Templar links.
The Fisher King, Parzival's uncle is wounded in the genitals and unable to die. However at the end of the poem a curse is lifted and he dies and Parzival becomes heir to the grail.
The grail has the power, or right to make kings and many other strange things.
Later, especially with Mallory the grail symbolism is entirely lost and it beomces merely a cup.



If you enjoy this sort of stuff I really, really reckommend buying Holy Blood Holy Grail.

Pilgrim
December 1st 2004, 12:56 PM
Wait a minute, you say on one hand that grail romance predates Christianity and then in the next paragraph you state that the first grail romance was probably in the 12th century?

TheOneAndOnly
December 1st 2004, 01:09 PM
The grail legends' orgins predate Christianity and grail like objects are found in ancient Celtic folklore.
Chretain de Troyes' romance has very little to do with Jesus or Christianity, it alludes to mystrious symbolism and Pagan magic. It's strnage that Wolfram's story is a Christianised deviation of this. Both poems are extremely similar but Wolfram offers more knoweldge about what the grail really is; it is holy; to do with Jesus; has something to do with an important lineage; isn't necessarily a physical object. And the places in Wolfram's poem have strange similarities with medieval centres of heretical learning, that is, Cathar castles and Templar names.
It seems the physical grail, the platter, cup or chalice and the other grail, the mystical images, experiences and royal lineages merged in these stories. So the physical grail may have pagan, Celtic roots, but the other grail seems to have roots in early gnosticism and mystical thought. That's if HBHG is to be believed anyway.

Here's some links to some of the grail romances
http://www.greenmanreview.com/troyes.html
http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/chretien.htm
http://sociologyesoscience.com/wolframst.html

Celtic origins?
http://www.ynysprydein.org/bran/grail.htm
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/bran2.html

Welsh mythological ruler of ancient Britain and model for the keeper of the Grail, the Fisher King. He originally is a Celtic god (see: Bran) and, though he is gigantic, he is practically humanized and called 'the Blessed' but this might be a Christianization of a pagan epithet. Bran is wounded in battle with a poisoned spear after leading an army to Ireland in the 'Mabinogion'.

http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/arthurian_legend/grail/fisher/

Some of these view contradict HBHG, but don't pay any attention to those. =)

C. D. Ward
December 1st 2004, 01:26 PM
Do people really think that Christ would have used a jewel encrusted gold cup? Come on, the very design of the cup shows that it is not age appropriate to Christ's time.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3946/santocaliz/If you do a little more searching, you'll see that the cup itself is only the stone vessel on top of all that gold and jewel encrustation. The "jewelry" was added later, as a veneration. The cup itself looks like a simple stone bowl.

Note, I'm not saying that this is THE cup, but it is a better candidate than any golden chalice would be...

Rusty T
December 1st 2004, 01:28 PM
Do people really think that Christ would have used a jewel encrusted gold cup? Come on, the very design of the cup shows that it is not age appropriate to Christ's time.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3946/santocaliz/
If you read the description of the cup from that website, you'd find:

The Santo Caliz, 17 cm high, is a set of three pieces put togheter in a whole Chalice: a cup (on top), a foot and a body or base.

The Holy Grail is the upper piece, a hemispheric 9.5 cm diameter cup, carved out of a big gem of agate 'Oriental Carnelian' ; it was a individual piece, a very old cup built in Egypt, Syria or perhaps Palestine about the IVth - Ist B.C. century. It has been studied by Antonio Beltran et al. (Depart. Archaeology of University of Zaragoza).

Rusty

Rusty T
December 1st 2004, 01:33 PM
What do you mean? AFAIK the grail romances predate Christianity and probably originated in Celtic folklore, the Welsh legend of Bran etc. Bran posessed a platter on which any food he dreamt of was instantly obtained. Bran's head was decapitated and placed as an omen, or talisman, in London. This shares some parallels with later grail legends.
How can stories of the Holy Grail (used in the upper room, remember) predate Christianty? You can say "Grail-like" legends, but be specific please. Also, I'm not talking about "romances", I'm speaking of actual historical records. If you read the article (which I'm sure you did), you'd read:

Years later, when researching relics in the National Library of Madrid, I remembered that leaflet. I searched for information on St. Laurence and found a very interesting translation of a document that was reportedly written by St. Donato in the sixth century, which not only contains a biography of St. Laurence's early life, but also confirms that this transfer had indeed taken place.

rusty

TheOneAndOnly
December 1st 2004, 01:42 PM
My point was that there are no real "grails" like on Indiana Jones. The grail was originally a pagan symbol, a cup or platter of bounty, that was transformed into a Christian one, using the same images of chalices etc. Only later did the chalice become a physical object, in the late romances.
Seraching for the grail is like searching for neverneverland. You'll never find it. But there are theories that the grail was actually something else, something the Church didn't want people to know so poets would disguise the true messege of the grail behind these shallow cup and chalice stories. See my long post.

Rusty T
December 1st 2004, 02:01 PM
So, you completely ignore early Christian testimony (St. Jerome for instance) that mention specifically the cup used at the institution of the Eucharist - and the subsequent veneration of that cup? You skip over a few hundred years and start using romance myths to justifiy saying things like "the grail was originally a pagan symbol." Call me incredulous.

rusty

TheOneAndOnly
December 1st 2004, 07:20 PM
I don't know about St. Jerome's veneration of a cup. I'm not aware that this has anything to do with the origins of the Holy Grail.
After the first romances were written in the 12th and 13th centuries many towns, cities and monasteries throughout Europe claimed to have the Holy Grail. Rival monasteries vied for legitimate claims and I think Glastonbury Abbey, one of the Grail legend hotbeds, was graffitied to give some more legitimacy to its claim as grail resting place.

Here's the Cath Encyclopedia's view:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06719a.htm

A brief browse through that showed nothing of St. Jerome.

Minnesota
December 1st 2004, 09:18 PM
TheOneAndOnly,

Yeah, I did read it (Holy Blood Holy Grail) back in the early '80s. V E R Y interesting.

shunyadragon
December 2nd 2004, 09:21 AM
If you read the description of the cup from that website, you'd find:

The Santo Caliz, 17 cm high, is a set of three pieces put togheter in a whole Chalice: a cup (on top), a foot and a body or base.

The Holy Grail is the upper piece, a hemispheric 9.5 cm diameter cup, carved out of a big gem of agate 'Oriental Carnelian' ; it was a individual piece, a very old cup built in Egypt, Syria or perhaps Palestine about the IVth - Ist B.C. century. It has been studied by Antonio Beltran et al. (Depart. Archaeology of University of Zaragoza).

RustyA simple agate cup could not be dated as 'it was a individual piece, a very old cup built in Egypt, Syria or perhaps Palestine about the IVth - Ist B.C. century. It has been studied by Antonio Beltran et al. (Depart. Archaeology of University of Zaragoza).'

This a common stone everywhere in the world made into everything from jewelry to cups and small statues. The oldest are from China and drinking cups and the mortor and pistol was a common item made by them throughout their known history. The most prized of the oriental cups were made of nephrite jade for the emperor and royalty.

Rusty T
December 2nd 2004, 09:51 AM
From what I know of dating stoneware (which is little), the dating is done according to style - not so much the material (although it does play a pivotal role).

rusty

TheOneAndOnly
December 2nd 2004, 09:59 AM
Tizzidale, just out of interest, do you actually believe the grail exists? As an actual physical cup?

shunyadragon
December 2nd 2004, 10:15 AM
From what I know of dating stoneware (which is little), the dating is done according to style - not so much the material (although it does play a pivotal role).

rusty
The simple style does not help in dating, because even the range given be those giving the opinion is too broad, 'it was a individual piece, a very old cup built in Egypt, Syria or perhaps Palestine about the IVth - Ist B.C. century.' I have reviewed the material long ago and the simple style identified in the literature cannot be identified with one particular culture.

Meh_Gerbil
December 2nd 2004, 06:31 PM
WARNING: MEAN SPIRITED RANT

There is NO holy grail.
Get over it already.

Christ and His Sacrifice is what was significant -- not the stupid cup He used to get a drink. Bits of wood from the 'true cross', holy discarded burial rags, and sanctified dishes do not have any value whatsoever. Objects are NOT imbued with power or significance. What is this? Witchcraft 101?

Even if you found the cup Christ used it would have no more significance than the pen used to sign the Declaration of Independence. It might be a fun historical oddity but it is completely without intrinsic value.

For crying out loud, in the Middle Ages they had shrines that featured vials of Mary's breast milk. It is this sort of idiocy that really wears me thin in the old temper department. The disciples thought NOTHING of the meal they took with Christ that evening because they ended up napping during Christ's hour of need. Out of the thousands of cups He drank out of in His lifetime there was no reason to think this one would be special.

Please, check the materialistic superstition at the door.

The dang 'cup' is in an ancient landfill -- it is worthless -- it shouldn't be seen as valuable because the entire world is due to 'pass away' and only Christ and His elect will see the other side. Did you get that? All the 'junk', including that cup are due to be destroyed. That stupid fake shroud may have escaped a fire in the 14th century but it won't escape the final fire, you can bank on that.

Build your faith on a person, not a trunk full of memoribilia.

TheOneAndOnly
December 2nd 2004, 09:40 PM
Mad Gerbil, the grail isn't a cup or chalice or wine glass or coffee mug. The grail was a metaphor for the mystical journey to enlightenment. Each knight would seek the grail, in the romances, and discover truths about himself and his faith.

Only later did it become a simple cup that gave you powers

Meh_Gerbil
December 2nd 2004, 09:53 PM
Mad Gerbil, the grail isn't a cup or chalice or wine glass or coffee mug. The grail was a metaphor for the mystical journey to enlightenment. Each knight would seek the grail, in the romances, and discover truths about himself and his faith.

Only later did it become a simple cup that gave you powers
I'm okay with metaphors.
Idols make me itch.

Rusty T
December 2nd 2004, 11:46 PM
I don't know if the Grail exists. It is an interesting subject.

rusty