Who is Satan in the OT?

[shunyadragon]

In a number of places like the following, the word 'Satan' is used in the Christian translations of the OT. According to the traditional belief of Judaism, who is this accuser?

Zechariah 3:1-2 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD , and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD , who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"

[cweb255]

What time period? He was the accuser angel in Job, the oldest book of the Bible, just a name for adversaries in Joshua/Kings, and by the later prophets took on a more demonic personality. HaSaTaN. STN - adversary.

Mythology gone too far.

This is a theist only area. Generally speaking, atheists do not post in this theist only forum without prior approval from a moderator.

[shunyadragon]

What time period? He was the accuser angel in Job, the oldest book of the Bible, just a name for adversaries in Joshua/Kings, and by the later prophets took on a more demonic personality. HaSaTaN. STN - adversary.

Mythology gone too far.
Big question. What time period?

Apparently he was still there as an angel in the court of God to be an accuser of Job. According to the Bible he was caste out long ago, and, ah . . . should not be there.

I was actually curious to hear from the Jewish members of Tweb, because they apparently do not consider Satan or the Devil to be the real.

[Drashi]

What time period? He was the accuser angel in Job, the oldest book of the Bible, just a name for adversaries in Joshua/Kings, and by the later prophets took on a more demonic personality. HaSaTaN. STN - adversary.

Mythology gone too far.
The first occurrence of the word appears in Berashit (Genesis) when there is an argument over a well and because of the emnity generated it was called "Sitnah" (the female variant of the word).

It is a verb.

And as such, verbs express against objects in order to be realized.

Now there is a concept in Judaism called the "Yetzer HaRah", which is the experience of being drawn towards self-centeredness, of creating a "Nefesh HaBehaima" (animal-soul) more than a Nefesh HaElokim (Divine soul), and as such HaSahtan, the experience of emnity is often related to as one's Yetzer HaRah.

We also have a tradition that the Zachariah 12 speaks of the death of the Yetzer HaRah prior towards the expression of righteousness, and that those caught in it's clutches will cry over knowing the evil that they had done, the veil lifted from their eyes.

Of course, from the Jewish point of view, this is all spoken in allegory as a method of understanding how we are to walk the straight line, and not of a demon who is palying some twisted metaphysical game of seeing who can collect the most souls before creation ends.

[Conductor42]

Watch out folks, Drashi is here :)

Welcome Drashi!

[Menachem]

Welcome to Tweb Drashi..... From your local Jewish Twebbers....

[kofh2u]

The first occurrence of the word appears in Berashit (Genesis) when there is an argument over a well and because of the emnity generated it was called "Sitnah" (the female variant of the word).

It is a verb.

And as such, verbs express against objects in order to be realized.

Now there is a concept in Judaism called the "Yetzer HaRah", which is the experience of being drawn towards self-centeredness, of creating a "Nefesh HaBehaima" (animal-soul) more than a Nefesh HaElokim (Divine soul), and as such HaSahtan, the experience of emnity is often related to as one's Yetzer HaRah.

We also have a tradition that the Zachariah 12 speaks of the death of the Yetzer HaRah prior towards the expression of righteousness, and that those caught in it's clutches will cry over knowing the evil that they had done, the veil lifted from their eyes.

Of course, from the Jewish point of view, this is all spoken in allegory as a method of understanding how we are to walk the straight line, and not of a demon who is palying some twisted metaphysical game of seeing who can collect the most souls before creation ends.

Yes, Egoism vs Altruism.

Ayn Rand presents the argument for Egoism in her work entitled, The Virtues of Selfishness.

But, where, in Zechariah 12 is there mention of this satan?

[shunyadragon]

The first occurrence of the word appears in Berashit (Genesis) when there is an argument over a well and because of the emnity generated it was called "Sitnah" (the female variant of the word).

It is a verb.

And as such, verbs express against objects in order to be realized.

Now there is a concept in Judaism called the "Yetzer HaRah", which is the experience of being drawn towards self-centeredness, of creating a "Nefesh HaBehaima" (animal-soul) more than a Nefesh HaElokim (Divine soul), and as such HaSahtan, the experience of emnity is often related to as one's Yetzer HaRah.

We also have a tradition that the Zachariah 12 speaks of the death of the Yetzer HaRah prior towards the expression of righteousness, and that those caught in it's clutches will cry over knowing the evil that they had done, the veil lifted from their eyes.

Of course, from the Jewish point of view, this is all spoken in allegory as a method of understanding how we are to walk the straight line, and not of a demon who is palying some twisted metaphysical game of seeing who can collect the most souls before creation ends.Thank you, Drashi! This is not far from the concept of Buddhist/Daoist enlightenment.

Are you referring to Zech 12:10-14. This interpretation would be in rather sharp contrast to the traditional Christian interpretation.

In this It appears to be a specific person called the accuser. Could the accuser be the ego of Job, and the new clothes be as a result of 'the evil being lifted from his eyes.'?

I have a thread in Comparitive religions on Zechariah. Your comments are welcome. I am on Chapter 1.

[kofh2u]

Thank you, Drashi! This is not far from the concept of Buddhist/Daoist enlightenment.

Are you referring to Zech 12:10-14. This interpretation would be in rather sharp contrast to the traditional Christian interpretation.

In this It appears to be a specific person called the accuser. Could the accuser be the ego of Job, and the new clothes be as a result of 'the evil being lifted from his eyes.'?

I have a thread in Comparitive religions on Zechariah. Your comments are welcome. I am on Chapter 1.


Yes.
By all means I hope to read posts in that thread on Zechariah 12.

The Orthodox Christian take on Zechariah 12 seems straight forward, rational, historically grounded, explicit, in context, and literally true. It is totally comprehensive, explaining all induendo.

I can not imagine where in Zech12 this satan appears, especially Zech 12:10-14.

The bracketed commentary in Zech 12:10-14 expresses the Orthodox Christian interpretation.
It suggests the total comprehensiveness of interpretation throughout the entirity of chapter 12.

It seems very hard to imagine a competitive analysis with as much common sense appeal coming from other guesses, even those based on ancient Jewish experts, the authors of a Talmud lacking the credence of our present 20-20 historical hindsight.

Zech. 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, (2K4), that I will seek to destroy all the (Islamic) nations that come against Jerusalem.

Zech. 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, (the lion of Judah, the root of David, Rev 5:5) and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, (the Jewish citizens of the State of Israel), the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me, (And they shall see his face [everywhere]; and his name [Jesus] shall be in their foreheads. Rev 22:4), whom they, (the rabbi), have pierced, (Ps 22), and they shall mourn for
him, (Jesus), as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn, (the first born son of God, Homoiousian sapiens).

Zech. 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of (the triangular landscape of) Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon, (because of the armageddon of the coming scriptural understandings).

Zech. 12:12 And the land (of the State of Israel) shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David, (the Hebrew-Christians community), apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan, (those who handed Jesus up), apart, and their wives apart;

Zech. 12:13 The family of the house of Levi, (the Cohanim), apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei, (the Rabbi of today), apart, and their wives apart;

Zech. 12:14 All the families (of the twelve tribes of Israel) that remain (scattered throughout the world), every family apart, and their wives apart.

[Drashi]

My association with the Yezter HaRah and Zachariah 12 is based on the Gemara (Sukkah 52a) where there is first the discussion about the Yetzer HaRah, the personification of it as "Moshiach Ben Yosef", and then the attributes of it. But again, you have to remember that the Gemara will often use satements by the Navi'im in non-traditional ways to explain (drasha) an idea, especially since the reference of a Moshiach ben Yosef (the only minor Talmudic reference to such a metaphor is found on that single page of text) is entirely Midrashic, as somethig that is evil and misleading, which will be destroyed prior to the end-of-days.

I did start a thread in another forum when I basically translated the Gemara,the Rash, and some of the other commentators on it to show some of the interesting twists that Chazal would often take to teach something.

So while I do agree that the more traditional explanations of Zachariah 12 does speak of a real person, or even a people (mepharshim are split on this), the drashic use of the Yetzer HaRah is compelling and does provide some food for thought. (Not the Rashi as well as the Redak commentary on 12:10 just to get a feel for the type of interaction going on. Although I am of the opinion that Rashi made his comment as a sort of back-handed slight at the Christians.

The key to it, is the idea of crying as described in the text. Who is crying, and why? There are multiple goanic interpretations of this, and when it comes from a Jewish context of Navi'im in general, they all work well. I think the primary problem that most Jews have is when a different contextual perception is used (non-Jewish) that transforms it into something foreign.

Finally, the use of dakar ("pierce") in 12:10 is better translated as "thrust-completely-through" - the first time it is used in the Torah is when speaking of Pinchas, where we speak of the spear going through one side of the body and coming out the other (think shish-ka-bob!). And in every case it means an extreme thrusing to pass through the body and causing immediate death. "pierce" is way to passive of a term.


[As a side note, if someone could PM me about how to set an avatar, I'd appreciate it!]

[shunyadragon]

I think the primary problem that most Jews have is when a different contextual perception is used (non-Jewish) that transforms it into something foreign.

Finally, the use of dakar ("pierce") in 12:10 is better translated as "thrust-completely-through" - the first time it is used in the Torah is when speaking of Pinchas, where we speak of the spear going through one side of the body and coming out the other (think shish-ka-bob!). And in every case it means an extreme thrusing to pass through the body and causing immediate death. "pierce" is way to passive of a term.Thank you again for more information. It got you five pearls. I am looking for different viewpoints from the Jewish perspective. This offers an introduction to several. Your note on dakar is also interesting.

[kofh2u]

My association with the Yezter HaRah and Zachariah 12 is based on the Gemara (Sukkah 52a) where there is first the discussion about the Yetzer HaRah, the personification of it as "Moshiach Ben Yosef", and then the attributes of it. But again, you have to remember that the Gemara will often use satements by the Navi'im in non-traditional ways to explain (drasha) an idea, especially since the reference of a Moshiach ben Yosef (the only minor Talmudic reference to such a metaphor is found on that single page of text) is entirely Midrashic, as somethig that is evil and misleading, which will be destroyed prior to the end-of-days.

I did start a thread in another forum when I basically translated the Gemara,the Rash, and some of the other commentators on it to show some of the interesting twists that Chazal would often take to teach something.

So while I do agree that the more traditional explanations of Zachariah 12 does speak of a real person, or even a people (mepharshim are split on this), the drashic use of the Yetzer HaRah is compelling and does provide some food for thought. (Not the Rashi as well as the Redak commentary on 12:10 just to get a feel for the type of interaction going on. Although I am of the opinion that Rashi made his comment as a sort of back-handed slight at the Christians.

The key to it, is the idea of crying as described in the text. Who is crying, and why? There are multiple goanic interpretations of this, and when it comes from a Jewish context of Navi'im in general, they all work well. I think the primary problem that most Jews have is when a different contextual perception is used (non-Jewish) that transforms it into something foreign.

Finally, the use of dakar ("pierce") in 12:10 is better translated as "thrust-completely-through" - the first time it is used in the Torah is when speaking of Pinchas, where we speak of the spear going through one side of the body and coming out the other (think shish-ka-bob!). And in every case it means an extreme thrusing to pass through the body and causing immediate death. "pierce" is way to passive of a term.


[As a side note, if someone could PM me about how to set an avatar, I'd appreciate it!]


Thrust through? How is this expressed in Zechb13:3? Is the same word used?


Zech. 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet
prophesy, then his (Catholic) father and his mother that begat him shall
say unto him, (during the 1000 year reign of Christ's Dark Ages), "Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD, (Jesus Christ): and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through."

And, in regard to Zechariah 12, I see the idea of piercing specifically referred to as a piercing of the hands:

Zech. 13:5 But he shall say (to the Catholic priests), I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.

Zech. 13:6 And one (of the Inquisitioners) shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine
hands, (Stigmata)? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

[Drashi]

Thanks for the use of the parenthasis. It illustrates how a different mindset can see and reinterpret the text in a a foreign way, but in a way that nurtures his or her own specific faith. That is why learning with someone of your own faith who is already learned in the texts of your ancestors is very important.

BTW, I was speaking of Dakar (d.k.r).

Zech. 13:6 uses a different word with the root (h.c.h) meaning to hit or strike (which you note as "wounds", but could also be black-and-blue marks, scrapes, or any blemish that results from a shap or blunt strike or any form of a beating).

Zech. 13:3 does use Dakar, so your use of "thrust through" is equally supported - to kill in a single thrust and pass through the body, rather than a torturous stab-stab-stab. This was also the manner in which Shaul HaMelech request his executioner kill him - in a single killing thrust through the body.

The Talmud goes into great detail of the extremes that we would go through in an execution in order to limit the pain of an execution to the least amount of time. Stoning (being tossed down over a cliff of stones), strangulation (two really strong guys pulling on either side of a taut rope wrapped around your neck), burning (forcing burning metal down the throat), and thrusting through with the sword. Getting it over quickly was imperative.

The Romans, however, enjoyed a good torturous death, and so the typical Jew would last about 2-3 days in a Crucifixion (exposure and shock were the primary causes of death). Persians liked a slow chopping of the body into little bits. The Inquisition seemed quite fond of fire.

[kofh2u]

Drashi:
Thanks for the use of the parenthasis.

KOFHY:
I see why you are held in such high esteem here by friends who wekcome your return.

You are self confident in your ability to manage rational discussion.

You are wise enough to know that debate essentially excludes the finality of a "verdict."

You are sensible enough to realize that the unique format of bracketing a particular interpretation directly in the context of the KJV of the bible is really no different than footnoting.

You recognize that the brackets permit expression of a mind-set... set to read the bible, plain out, in a more venacular understating of what it is saying (albeit, to the interpretor).

And, of course, as yoj say below, you underdtand my take on these passages.

"It illustrates how a different mindset can see and reinterpret the text in a a foreign way, but in a way that nurtures his or her own specific faith." (Drashi:)

Drashi:
That is why learning with someone of your own faith who is already learned in the texts of your ancestors is very important.

KOFHY:
Here we have a great difference of opinion. Though I respect the past and bear honor to the men of those times, the words of Daniel ring in my ears, and the common sense of realizing 2000 years of hindsight give us an enormous advantage to re-evaluate these scriptures which the failed interpretations of the past imply as necessary.
Giving equal weight to all the great seers, of all persuasions, the Esoteric S4cret Knowledge if Israel, the "hidden manna" of Christianity, has not been revealed in all that they tell us.

Dan. 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words (of the Old Testament), and seal the book (of death and hell), even to (2K4AD), the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, (traveling freely by land, sea, and even air), and knowledge (in an Age of Enlightenment) shall be increased.

Drashi:
BTW, I was speaking of Dakar (d.k.r).

Zech. 13:6 uses a different word with the root (h.c.h) meaning to hit or strike (which you note as "wounds",...

KOFHY:
The word "wounds" is used in the KJV. I assume you do not me, the word is not bracketed. You mean, KJV uses English for the Hebrew denotation that:
..."could also be black-and-blue marks, scrapes, or any blemish that results from a shap or blunt strike or any form of a beating)."

Drashi:
Zech. 13:3 does use Dakar, so your use of "thrust through" is equally supported - to kill in a single thrust and pass through the body, rather than a torturous stab-stab-stab. "

Drashi:
The Talmud...

KOFHY:
The Babylonian?
Which Talmud, the one written AFTER the Jesus matter?

Drashi:
The Romans, however, enjoyed a good torturous death, and so the typical Jew would last about 2-3 days in a Crucifixion (exposure and shock were the primary causes of death).

KOFHY:
True.
In the Phillipines, the ritual of actually being crucified is reinacted every Easter by a few willing Christians (who nevertheless live). Their legs are not broken, nor is the person speared in the chest.

One reads Psalm 22, and must wonder how the implied use of a typically Roman execution could have been suggested so long before there was a Rome.
As you note, the Persians and Greeks who proceeded the Romans used different deterents to civil disobedience.

Drashi:
The Inquisition seemed quite fond of fire.

Ha, yes. See, the human condition is to slowly learn from the mistakes of the past. No resurrection of prophets would be allowed with burning at the stake!

Rev. 11:4 These are the two olive trees, (the lost kingdom of Ephraim [Ez 28:13] and the kingdom of Judah) [Zech 4:14], and the two candlesticks, (the Old Testament [Zech 4:2] and New Testament [Jn 14:16,26]), standing before the God of the earth, (the Theistic, Almighty Universal Power).

Rev. 11:5 And if any man will hurt them (in denigrating them), fire
(at the stake) proceedeth out of their mouth, (preaching condemnation), and devoureth their (heretical) enemies: and if any man will hurt them (by interpretation), he must in this manner, (at the stake), be killed (in the Catholic inquisition).

[Drashi]

With those inserted "( )" it looks like you have a problem with Catholics. But the founder of the protestant movement (Martin Luther) also inspired Christians to kill and murder Jews.

It was a general problem based on the anti-semitic foundation. "The Devil in the Middle Ages" is a remarkable book to read, which shows the history of "Satan" in Christianity and how the jews were associated with the "devil" by the Church and the Reformers.

[kofh2u]

The first occurrence of the word appears in Berashit (Genesis) when there is an argument over a well and because of the emnity generated it was called "Sitnah" (the female variant of the word).

It is a verb.

And as such, verbs express against objects in order to be realized.

Now there is a concept in Judaism called the "Yetzer HaRah", which is the experience of being drawn towards self-centeredness, of creating a "Nefesh HaBehaima" (animal-soul) more than a Nefesh HaElokim (Divine soul), and as such HaSahtan, the experience of emnity is often related to as one's Yetzer HaRah.

We also have a tradition that the Zachariah 12 speaks of the death of the Yetzer HaRah prior towards the expression of righteousness, and that those caught in it's clutches will cry over knowing the evil that they had done, the veil lifted from their eyes.

Of course, from the Jewish point of view, this is all spoken in allegory as a method of understanding how we are to walk the straight line, and not of a demon who is palying some twisted metaphysical game of seeing who can collect the most souls before creation ends.


Then, it might be easier for Jews to accept the rationality,... if not the thological recognition,... of Rev 1:16?
This verse expresses the "Seven Doubles" in a Christian symbolism of seven stars.

There is a libidinal, physical manifestation and sexual connotation to Satan in Christian literature.
The Egoism of self-centered selfishness of "Yetzer HaRah" is also directly opposed to the proclamation of Altruism in Christian literature.

The implications of your statements are noted in this verse:

Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars,...
... [the sevenfold spirit of the psyche (nefesh): Id (YV), Libido (VH), Ego (VY), Anima (HV), Self (HY), Harmony (HH), Superego (YH):]

[kofh2u]

With those inserted "( )" it looks like you have a problem with Catholics. But the founder of the protestant movement (Martin Luther) also inspired Christians to kill and murder Jews.

It was a general problem based on the anti-semitic foundation. "The Devil in the Middle Ages" is a remarkable book to read, which shows the history of "Satan" in Christianity and how the jews were associated with the "devil" by the Church and the Reformers.


Yes, the hstory of the Europeans, before and after the replacement of their mythological/pagan religious institutions by Universal Catholicism is hardly less cruel. Nor did they treat the Jews much differently than the gentile pagan peoples of the middle east.

This observation is related to my statement of agreement with you, concerning the process set in motion by Christ, the suffering messiah, that he was. God is not done with these western European converts to monotheism, for sure.

As you point out, the Protestant movement hardly affected the Christianized European treatment of Jews.

The matter of Revelation does not concern a stamp of approval.
Revelation is what Christ prrdicted.
The whole book of Revelation is an ananalogous chronicle of what was to take place after the crucifixion. No prophets would be allowed.

And, yes, anti-semitism would culminate in the holocaust.

Zech. 8:13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, (those who have already been gather into the State of Israel), and house of Israel (those ten lost tribes throughout America and the world); so will I, (by my Spirit), save you (in 1948 AD) and ye shall be a blessing (to the Christian World): fear not, but let your hands be strong.

[kofh2u]

With those inserted "( )" it looks like you have a problem with Catholics. But the founder of the protestant movement (Martin Luther) also inspired Christians to kill and murder Jews.

It was a general problem based on the anti-semitic foundation. "The Devil in the Middle Ages" is a remarkable book to read, which shows the history of "Satan" in Christianity and how the jews were associated with the "devil" by the Church and the Reformers.

What you say about the harseness of organized religions in general is a lesson for all.

The Jews were no better with the early Christians than the turn-around that followed. All this was prophesied innOT and Nt, neither Book condoning the unmercifulness of men to one another, merely "reporting" the events of the future to come:

Isa. 66:5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word, (the Bible); Your brethren, (the Jews), that hated you, (you first Christians), that cast you out (of the synagogues) for my name’s sake, (Jesus), said, "Let the LORD, (YHVH), be glorified:" but he, Christ), shall appear (in 2K4) to your joy, and they, (your brethren) shall be ashamed.

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time
cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

[shunyadragon]

With those inserted "( )" it looks like you have a problem with Catholics. But the founder of the protestant movement (Martin Luther) also inspired Christians to kill and murder Jews.

It was a general problem based on the anti-semitic foundation. "The Devil in the Middle Ages" is a remarkable book to read, which shows the history of "Satan" in Christianity and how the jews were associated with the "devil" by the Church and the Reformers.
I realize that the Christians view Satan as a real evil lesser demi-god, and often used this as the scapegoat of religions, beliefs and Judaism. The Jews view the violent hateful anti-semitism in history as truely 'evil'. Apparently Jews view 'evil' as bad choices and not inspired by temptation and the conspiracy of an 'evil' archangel, the devil or satan.

I appreciate your contributions and insight in previous posts, but sometimes you left things hanging. I would like to here more from the different perspectives of Judaism on who is the 'accuser' and how evil is portrayed in the OT and in contrast how it is believed today in Judaism.

[kofh2u]

I realize that the Christians view Satan as a real evil lesser demi-god, and often used this as the scapegoat of religions, beliefs and Judaism. The Jews view the violent hateful anti-semitism in history as truely 'evil'. Apparently Jews view 'evil' as bad choices and not inspired by temptation and the conspiracy of an 'evil' archangel, the devil or satan.

I appreciate your contributions and insight in previous posts, but sometimes you left things hanging. I would like to here more from the different perspectives of Judaism on who is the 'accuser' and how evil is portrayed in the OT and in contrast how it is believed today in Judaism.


The evil spirits are the same in both books, OT and NT.

They are revealed in different ways. Jesus recog ized the evil in us, in each of us.
The Old Testament tells us about their collective behaviors in the social interaction.

1) Gad & Mini, God of chance &Fate = Id = Lucifer

2) Bel (Is 46:1), God of Law/order = Self = Baalzebub

3) Golden Bull, God of Gold= Ego = Mammon

4) Ashtorah (Is 47), God of women = Anima = Devil

5) Baal, God of men = Libido = Satan

6) Nebo (Is 46: 1), God of writing, science, knowledge = Superego = False Prophet

7) Marduk, shepherd of the Gods = Harmony = False Shepherd

[shunyadragon]

The evil spirits are the same in both books, OT and NT.

They are revealed in different ways. Jesus recog ized the evil in us, in each of us.
The Old Testament tells us about their collective behaviors in the social interaction.

1) Gad & Mini, God of chance &Fate = Id = Lucifer

2) Bel (Is 46:1), God of Law/order = Self = Baalzebub

3) Golden Bull, God of Gold= Ego = Mammon

4) Ashtorah (Is 47), God of women = Anima = Devil

5) Baal, God of men = Libido = Satan

6) Nebo (Is 46: 1), God of writing, science, knowledge = Superego = False Prophet

7) Marduk, shepherd of the Gods = Harmony = False Shepherd
Evil can be described in many ways and these may be alegories to the nature of evil, but the question is, are these evil entities or attributes of evil in existence.

[kofh2u]

shunyadragon:

Evil can be described in many ways:

1) allegories to the nature of evil(?)
2) evil entities (?)
3) attributes of evil (?) in existence (?)

KOFHY:

You can help me understand by being more definitive.

evil?
evil entities?
evil attributes?
evil nature?

Sin?


The Jews were admonished throughout their history by their prophets because the worshipped(?) false Gods.

In particular, Ba'al and Ashtoreh were mentioned over and over as the "evil entities (?)" the Jews "went a-whoring after." The phallus stone idols of Baal, which we find today in the middle east, what in plastic would be called a dildo today, are companions to vaginal shaped smooth flat stone idols (groves) of Ashtoreh.

Abortions, in the "high places" of Jewish society, the sacrificing of their children, is the evil nature (?) of those who behave as these "Gods" encourage them to so do, allegorically expressed in scripture as "worship."

The nature of Ba'al is Libidal
The manipulative nature of Ashtoreh is prostitution.

The "fires of Molech" is adolescence, a forced enculturation into the "religion" of the whoredom that western culture maintains even now.

The FBII makes this more graphic, but its pretty clear isn't it?

2Kgs. 23:7 And he brake down the houses of the sodomites,...
... that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.

Jer. 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal,..

... to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal,...

... which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

2Kgs. 21:6 And he made his son pass through the fire,...
... and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke
him to anger.

2Kgs. 23:6 And he brought out the grove from the house of the LORD, without Jerusalem, unto the brook Kidron, and burned it at the brook Kidron, and stamped it small to powder, and cast the powder thereof...

... upon the graves of the children of the people.

[shunyadragon]

shunyadragon:

Evil can be described in many ways:

[quote] 1) allegories to the nature of evil(?)
When the first humans (Adam and Eve) knew God and sin, Humanity was given human nature, 'free-will' and the knowledge of good and evil. Because of this they can chose between good and evil. The nature of these evil choices would be the nature of evil described as allegories.


2) evil entities (?) The belief in a literal spiritual/physical supernatural demi-god, with powers. Belief in Demons and other evil spirits and creatures, usually considered servents of the evil


3) attributes of evil (?) in existence (?)Some believe existence itself has evil attributes 'created by God' as in Isaiah 45:7. I do not believe natural existence itself has evil attributes, but the potential is there as that which is manifest in the evil choices of humans.

[kofh2u]

When the first humans (Adam and Eve) knew God and sin, Humanity was given human nature, 'free-will' and the knowledge of good and evil. Because of this they can chose between good and evil. The nature of these evil choices would be the nature of evil described as allegories.

The belief in a literal spiritual/physical supernatural demi-god, with powers. Belief in Demons and other evil spirits and creatures, usually considered servents of the evil

Some believe existence itself has evil attributes 'created by God' as in Isaiah 45:7. I do not believe natural existence itself has evil attributes, but the potential is there as that which is manifest in the evil choices of humans.

Your definitions are reasonable.

'free-will' has selfish motivation or altruistic.

Yes, spiritual in thst its mental, "belief in a literal spiritual/physical supernatural demi-god"...

Supernatural, before Freud... 1930, the second date of the Millerites, and the years the sign of the son of man was seen in the sky... the morning star...

? Isaiah 45:7.?
Here the reference is ti God, the Immanent God within...

[InChristAlways]

realize that the Christians view Satan as a real evil lesser demi-god, and often used this as the scapegoat of religions, beliefs and Judaism. The Jews view the violent hateful anti-semitism in history as truely 'evil'. Apparently Jews view 'evil' as bad choices and not inspired by temptation and the conspiracy of an 'evil' archangel, the devil or satan.

I appreciate your contributions and insight in previous posts, but sometimes you left things hanging. I would like to here more from the different perspectives of Judaism on who is the 'accuser' and how evil is portrayed in the OT and in contrast how it is believed today in Judaism. Actually, Jesus, God and Paul identified who the "satan/Leviathan" was in the "AGE", Judah/Levi, the rulers and preists of Jerusalem in the first century[the house of Israel was still divorced by God btw].
So the way I see it, when Paul said there was no more "jew" or gentile, he meant that pretty literally and His anger might be on those that call themselves "jews" today, instead of just "Israelites" or christians. Any views?

romans 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ with you. Amen.

1 peter 5: 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary [b]the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.


luke 21: 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

ezekiel 22: 20 '[As men] gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt so I will gather [you] in My anger and in My fury, and I will leave [you there] and melt you. [i]21 'Yes, I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and you shall be melted in its midst.23 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 24 "Son of man, say to her: 'You [are] a land that is not cleansed or rained on in the day of indignation.' 25 "The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey; they have devoured people; they have taken treasure and precious things; they have made many widows in her midst. 26 "Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known [the difference] between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.

I don't know how the "jews" of Judah or other Israelites from the house of Israel view this, but God specifically says the "jews" of Judah/Levi are burning in His anger forever. I felt this might be for the future crucifixion of God's Son Jesus since Jesus came from the house of Judah but it was also that house the was "blinded" and crucified our Dear Lord and Savior, don't know. Notice this isn't against Israel but JUDAH, which is where the jews came from.

Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, [i]2 While their children remember Their altars and their wooden images By the green trees on the high hills. 3 O My mountain in the field, I will give as plunder your wealth, all your treasures, [And] your high places of sin within all your borders. 4 And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."

According to malachi, the priests of the house of Levi/Judah have been cursed and God will spread Dung on their faces and the "messiah" will take them away with it in His vengeance.

Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take [it] to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already, Because you do not take [it] to heart. 3 "Behold, I will rebuke your descendants And spread DUNG on your faces, The DUNG of your solemn feasts; And [one] will take you away with it.