Martyrdom In Islam means a murdering suicide bomber!!!

[Jude3b]

I am always curious how the murdering terroristic suicide bombers of Islam are called Martyrs by their so-called "religion of peace." How can this religion call these murderers "MARTYRS?"

How did this so-called peaceful religion become so off based?

How did the very word "Martyr" - get so changed from its original use - back when they fed Christians to the Lions in ancient Rome - who refused to deny their faith in Christ - to the way this Islamic religion uses it - to describe a murdering terrorist??

[micknc]

It is a far cry from what Martyr used to mean but the problem is with one sect of Islam. Just like in Christianity we have one book but many interpretations Islam has people on both ends of the spectrum. I meet people who are moderate Muslims and then ones who are liberal Muslims. The extreme radicals have interpreted Jihad into what is commonly known as the lesser jihad. The primary war is against ones self and sin, the battle to stay holy. The lesser has become the greater in the eyes of some.

It is sad that people are reduced to blowing themselves up to receive merit from God. I am glad that the real God has loved us due to his grace and mercy and not for who we really are.

[Krusader]

Close examination of the Quran and Hadith will verify that the jihadists who are becoming human candles are more in line with the original teachings than those Muslims who have modified "jihad" to a more spiritual meaning.

[Benster]

Agreed. Martyrdom doesn't mean you have to be peaceful. Christ's followers carried swords. Muslims who do suicide bombings think they are dying for their faith, because they believe that Islam is at war with the rest of the world. Like it or not (hopefully not!) they are fighting and dying for what they believe in.

And that has ALWAYS been the definition of martyrdom.

[Jude3b]

Agreed. Martyrdom doesn't mean you have to be peaceful. Christ's followers carried swords. Muslims who do suicide bombings think they are dying for their faith, because they believe that Islam is at war with the rest of the world. Like it or not (hopefully not!) they are fighting and dying for what they believe in.

And that has ALWAYS been the definition of martyrdom.
Martyrdom was Christians being killed for their faith in Jesus Christ. These Christians were not murdering terrorists like the Muslim suicide bombers.

[Timothy Leary]

1000 years ago, it was the Crusaders, with Muslims being the fairly tolerant ones. Today, it's the reverse. It is no more accurate to label all of Islam as "murdering" based on how some Muslims act today, than it would have been if I had done the same to Christianity 1000 years ago.

[Pilgrim]

I am always curious how the murdering terroristic suicide bombers of Islam are called Martyrs by their so-called "religion of peace." How can this religion call these murderers "MARTYRS?"

How did this so-called peaceful religion become so off based?

How did the very word "Martyr" - get so changed from its original use - back when they fed Christians to the Lions in ancient Rome - who refused to deny their faith in Christ - to the way this Islamic religion uses it - to describe a murdering terrorist??
I imagine they use the same line of reasoning that the Christian crusaders used.

[Beanieboy]

I am always curious how the murdering terroristic suicide bombers of Islam are called Martyrs by their so-called "religion of peace." How can this religion call these murderers "MARTYRS?"

How did this so-called peaceful religion become so off based?

How did the very word "Martyr" - get so changed from its original use - back when they fed Christians to the Lions in ancient Rome - who refused to deny their faith in Christ - to the way this Islamic religion uses it - to describe a murdering terrorist??
We have currently killed 100,000 civilians, yet our president claims to be a strong believer in God, and the "Prince of Peace." He is constantly referring to the Axis of Evil, denying that the US could ever do anything evil to another country.

Last night, I spoke to some foreigners about the war. They said that the US presents the new about the war in as positive way as possible. The rest of the world reports the war differently. While the US portrayed happy people in the square toppling the statue, people outside the filmed square were not happy at all. A woman said, "I know that Sadaam was a tyrant, but that is all I knew. That was my Iraq. And we were told that the US was evil, and now they have toppled our country, and are killing my neighbors."

And we are doing this because we are a good christian nation.

To them, they probably can't understand why we can claim to love God, the God of Love, yet kill 100,000 civilians in the name of peace. They can't understand why there has been no clear tie to 9/11 and Iraq, but we are warring with them any way. They can't understand why we claimed to rush into war because of WMD, when there were none, and claiming that we aren't lying.

Depends on how you look at it.

There is a movie called Reds. In the movie, another country has invaded the US. There is a small group of teens and their parents that rebel. They push baby buggies with bombs into stores, explode cars, assassinate the enemy. Because the enemy is, of course, better equipped, with tanks, and bazookas, etc., they begin with whatever they can find - molotov cocktails, car bombs.

As you watch the movie, you root for them. They are one the side of good. They are fighting the "evil enemy." There is a scene were a girl is shot and will die, so she holds a granade. When the enemy nudges her to she if she is dead, the pin is ripped out, and they both explode. She was a martyr.

Sound familiar?

Every side things that they are in the right, and that the other side is wrong, so if they must sacrifice themselves, God is on their side.

[Soundsurfr]

It is a far cry from what Martyr used to mean but the problem is with one sect of Islam. Just like in Christianity we have one book but many interpretations Islam has people on both ends of the spectrum. I meet people who are moderate Muslims and then ones who are liberal Muslims. The extreme radicals have interpreted Jihad into what is commonly known as the lesser jihad. The primary war is against ones self and sin, the battle to stay holy. The lesser has become the greater in the eyes of some.

I disagree with your assessment that the problem is with one sect of Islam. There may be one sect of Islam that is primarily responsible for carrying out suicide bombings and recruiting "martyrs" for that purpose, but a great number Islamic people are responsible for tacitly supporting these activities. If every Muslim cleric stood up and denounced suicide bombing as anti-Islam, then you would not have the situation you have. In fact, you have the opposite situation with many, many Mosques preaching hatred of jews and hatred of the West, and refusing to take a stand against the depraved idea that suicide bombing is somehow beneficial to any cause.


Soundsurfr has been given permission to post in this thread.

[Krusader]

We have currently killed 100,000 civilians, yet our president claims to be a strong believer in God, and the "Prince of Peace." He is constantly referring to the Axis of Evil, denying that the US could ever do anything evil to another country.

Last night, I spoke to some foreigners about the war. They said that the US presents the new about the war in as positive way as possible. The rest of the world reports the war differently. While the US portrayed happy people in the square toppling the statue, people outside the filmed square were not happy at all. A woman said, "I know that Sadaam was a tyrant, but that is all I knew. That was my Iraq. And we were told that the US was evil, and now they have toppled our country, and are killing my neighbors."

And we are doing this because we are a good christian nation.

To them, they probably can't understand why we can claim to love God, the God of Love, yet kill 100,000 civilians in the name of peace. They can't understand why there has been no clear tie to 9/11 and Iraq, but we are warring with them any way. They can't understand why we claimed to rush into war because of WMD, when there were none, and claiming that we aren't lying.

Depends on how you look at it.

There is a movie called Reds. In the movie, another country has invaded the US. There is a small group of teens and their parents that rebel. They push baby buggies with bombs into stores, explode cars, assassinate the enemy. Because the enemy is, of course, better equipped, with tanks, and bazookas, etc., they begin with whatever they can find - molotov cocktails, car bombs.

As you watch the movie, you root for them. They are one the side of good. They are fighting the "evil enemy." There is a scene were a girl is shot and will die, so she holds a granade. When the enemy nudges her to she if she is dead, the pin is ripped out, and they both explode. She was a martyr.

Sound familiar?

Every side things that they are in the right, and that the other side is wrong, so if they must sacrifice themselves, God is on their side.
Oh get real: "100,000 civilians," baloney. How many of those were terrorists who sat deployed by the roadside waiting to blow up our soldiers? How many were snipers? How many were human bombs? (All of this done in the name of the glorious "allah."

I recently talked to a soldier just returned from Iraq. He told me about the problem of distinguishing enemies from civilians in Iraq. He told me about the use of mosques to harbor terrorists. He told me about the roadside bombs that nearly daily destory cargo and men.

You call them civilians - but how many were terrorists, jihadists - the true believers of Islam who believe they will get 70 virgins and sip wine in everlasting bliss as a result of murder?

[Timothy Leary]

Oh get real: "100,000 civilians," baloney. How many of those were terrorists who sat deployed by the roadside waiting to blow up our soldiers? How many were snipers? How many were human bombs? (All of this done in the name of the glorious "allah."

I recently talked to a soldier just returned from Iraq. He told me about the problem of distinguishing enemies from civilians in Iraq. He told me about the use of mosques to harbor terrorists. He told me about the roadside bombs that nearly daily destory cargo and men.

You call them civilians - but how many were terrorists, jihadists - the true believers of Islam who believe they will get 70 virgins and sip wine in everlasting bliss as a result of murder?

This sounds so much like the Crusades. I find it odd that you would take such a name as your username if you truly were opposed to violence. Or do you condone the murdering of Jews by trapping them in their synagogues - and then burning them while singing songs to Jesus? I surely hope not.

[Soundsurfr]

Last night, I spoke to some foreigners about the war. They said that the US presents the new about the war in as positive way as possible. True.

The rest of the world reports the war differently. Yes, but not all of the rest of the world reports the war objectively. In fact, Arab television shows hundreds of pictures of US troops doing damage in Iraq and abusing prisoners at Abu Graib, but gives very little air time to insurgent beheadings and other such barbarics. They display pictures of Israeli tanks destroying Palestinian settlements almost non-stop, but do not give much air time to Palestinian suicide bombings in Jerusalem shopping areas and discos.

While the US portrayed happy people in the square toppling the statue, people outside the filmed square were not happy at all. That's a bit of a generalization. I think for the most part, the Iraqis were happy to see Saddam go. They are not happy with a US occupation, however.

[micknc]

Sure, I would agree with your assessment that more than one sect is to blame. Really the problem is the underlying premise that governs Islam. If you will not become a Muslim by choice they will make you by force or eliminate you.

You are right that more could stand up and disavow the actions of the terrorists but the flip side of that coin is that there are some who are doing it. I have seen all levels of Muslims ranging from some who just claim it because of heritage and those who cling to it with all they have.

I guess my point was that: to be a Muslim is not to be terrorist.

[Krusader]

You are assuming that all crusaders did was wantonly murder poor, innocent Muslims. Get a grip and read some history. Not all crusaders were marauding barbarians. Many genuinely desired to recapture the Holy Land from Muslim invaders who were destroying our holy sites - not to mention their persecution of the Jewish native population. Don't believe all the Muslim propaganda that you read. Just because Osama refers to all Westerners as "crusaders" shouldn't color your thinking. Think outside the box and do some research.

[Soundsurfr]

Oh get real: "100,000 civilians," baloney.
I think 100,000 is a fair estimate of Iraqi non-military casualties. Could be more, for all we know. The DOD doesn't report them.

How many of those were terrorists who sat deployed by the roadside waiting to blow up our soldiers? How many were snipers? How many were human bombs? (All of this done in the name of the glorious "allah."
I don't know, but in my opinion, you should be careful about how freely you throw around the term "terrorist". A terrorist, to me, is someone who indiscriminately targets non-combatants. Someone who targets US troops is an enemy fighter, not a terrorist. There are quite a few terrorists operating in Iraq, but the activities you describe above are not necessarily terrorist activities.

I recently talked to a soldier just returned from Iraq. He told me about the problem of distinguishing enemies from civilians in Iraq. He told me about the use of mosques to harbor terrorists. He told me about the roadside bombs that nearly daily destory cargo and men.
Yeah. War sucks.

You call them civilians - but how many were terrorists, jihadists - the true believers of Islam who believe they will get 70 virgins and sip wine in everlasting bliss as a result of murder?
Not too many of the Iraqis subscribe to this stuff. Those who are out to martyr themselves in the hopes of living it up in heavan are primarily foreign recruits from the madrassas in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and elsewhere. Don't fall prey to the propaganda that paints Iraqis as mindless killers. They are a relatively well-educated, non-extremist society, and a lot of them have been killed as a result of this war. Others, mostly children and the elderly, are dying as a result of the humanitarian crisis that has been brought about in the aftermath of the war and the ongoing insurgency.

It would be nice to think that very few Iraqi citizens are suffering thanks to the US military's "precision targeting" of Iraqi combatants, but the reality is, no matter how hard we try to minimize civilian casualties in Iraq, there have been many, many thousands wounded and killed and many more to follow.

So the question is - will it be worth it? Only if we can establish some sort of democracy in the region. I'm skeptical.

[Soundsurfr]

Really the problem is the underlying premise that governs Islam. If you will not become a Muslim by choice they will make you by force or eliminate you.
I doubt that most Muslims would agree that this is the underlying premise that governs Islam. Although I do think that it is not an overly pluralistic religion, even compared to its competitors.

[Krusader]

I think 100,000 is a fair estimate of Iraqi non-military casualties. Could be more, for all we know. The DOD doesn't report them.


I don't know, but in my opinion, you should be careful about how freely you throw around the term "terrorist". A terrorist, to me, is someone who indiscriminately targets non-combatants. Someone who targets US troops is an enemy fighter, not a terrorist. There are quite a few terrorists operating in Iraq, but the activities you describe above are not necessarily terrorist activities.


Yeah. War sucks.


Not too many of the Iraqis subscribe to this stuff. Those who are out to martyr themselves in the hopes of living it up in heavan are primarily foreign recruits from the madrassas in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and elsewhere. Don't fall prey to the propaganda that paints Iraqis as mindless killers. They are a relatively well-educated, non-extremist society, and a lot of them have been killed as a result of this war. Others, mostly children and the elderly, are dying as a result of the humanitarian crisis that has been brought about in the aftermath of the war and the ongoing insurgency.

It would be nice to think that very few Iraqi citizens are suffering thanks to the US military's "precision targeting" of Iraqi combatants, but the reality is, no matter how hard we try to minimize civilian casualties in Iraq, there have been many, many thousands wounded and killed and many more to follow.

So the question is - will it be worth it? Only if we can establish some sort of democracy in the region. I'm skeptical.
Read the Quran for yourself, and then I suggest you read a biography of Mohammed. You will see that Islam was founded and spread by the use of terrorism.

And let's not forget all the non-Iraqui terrorists who have infiltrated that country and whose aim is to install an Iranian type regime. Some of these mullahs make Sadaam look like St. Augustine!

[Timothy Leary]

You are assuming that all crusaders did was wantonly murder poor, innocent Muslims. Get a grip and read some history. Not all crusaders were marauding barbarians. Many genuinely desired to recapture the Holy Land from Muslim invaders who were destroying our holy sites - not to mention their persecution of the Jewish native population. Don't believe all the Muslim propaganda that you read. Just because Osama refers to all Westerners as "crusaders" shouldn't color your thinking. Think outside the box and do some research.

Oh, I don't need to read "Muslim" propaganda. Let's take some facts for ya.

Before the Crusades, there was a large amount of Karaite Jews, including the order called "The Mourners of Zion". Not only did the Muslims allow Karaites to worship in their own manner, but looked rather favorably upon them at the time. They encouraged the activities from them, such as Daniel Al-Kumisi, which could today be called "Zionist".

During the Crusades, nearly every Karaite Jew in Israeli was murdered. When Israel was reborn in 1948, only 2 Karaite Jewish families in Israel remained.

That's history for you.

[Krusader]

During Mohammed's time, EVERY Jew in Mecca was either murdered or sent packing out of Arabia. Mohammed slaughtered Jews after they refused to worship his moon-god. As far as Israel goes, if Muslims had there way today there wouldn't be a Jew in Israel!

[Timothy Leary]

As far as Israel goes, if Muslims had there way today there wouldn't be a Jew in Israel!

Most Muslims would do away with Israel if they had the chance. But that's another topic.

The fact remains: The crusaders murdered in cold blood thousands upon thousands of Jews, whilst at that time the Muslims treated them fairly well. Christianity has committed the same crimes that Muslims are committing today.

[Krusader]

Those so-called Christians were not Christians at all. Did they follow the admonition of Christ to love their enemies and do good to those that despitefully use you? Many were simply "Christian" due to infant "baptism." To use your logic, one would have to say that Nazis were Christians!

On the other hand, Muslims murder at the behest of their prophet and god - "slay the infidels wherever you find them!"

[Timothy Leary]

Guess what - I've heard Muslim arguments that say the same thing, in reverse! They even can add a nice little quote from your sacred writings to finish it all, just like you!

[Krusader]

How about this one, "those that live by the sword will die by the sword."

Read the Bible and compare it to the Quran. Especially, read the New Testament, and you will see a great deal of difference between the words of Christ and those of Mohammed.

Have you read the New Testament?

[Timothy Leary]

How about this one, "those that live by the sword will die by the sword."

Nope. They didn't use that one.

Have you read the New Testament?

Yes, I have, and multiple translations of it.

[Krusader]

Okay, so as a Jew, what did you think of the New Testament? I'd be interested in knowing.