Mohammed's terrible legacy

[Krusader]

Today's world is plagued by rabid Islamic jihadists who joyously snuff out lives of innocent victims while hollering Allahu Akbar. On what basis do these jihadists commit these horrendous acts? Who is their model?

Mohammed, the Muslim prophet, forged the foundation of jihadist terrorism in his Quran. Consider some of the following from the Quran and Muslim authorities:

Bukhari:V4B52N220: Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been made victorious with terror.'
Quran 8:12: I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.
Quran: 8:67: It is not fitting for any peophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Muslim:C20B1N4597: The Prophet said at the conquest of Mecca: 'There is no migration now, but only Jihad, fighting for the cause of Islam. When you are asked to set out on a Jihad expedition, you should readily do so.'
Quran 4:74: Let those who fight in Allah's Cause sell this world's life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah's Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward.

This is just a small taste of the traditions and surahs supporting modern jihadist terrorists. Osama is just following his master!

[kiwimac]

Qu'ran 8:12-14

008.012 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

008.013 This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.

008.014 Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire."

Al-Qur'an, 008.012-014 (Al-Anfal [Spoils of War, Booty])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.9

Qu'ran Sura 8: verse 65 onwards


008.065 O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.

008.066 For the present, Allah hath lightened your (task), for He knoweth that there is a weak spot in you: But (even so), if there are a hundred of you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred, and if a thousand, they will vanquish two thousand, with the leave of Allah: for Allah is with those who patiently persevere.

008.067 It is not fitting for a prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: And Allah is Exalted in might, Wise.

008.068 Had it not been for a previous ordainment from Allah, a severe penalty would have reached you for the (ransom) that ye took.

008.069 But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good: but fear Allah: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

008.070 O Prophet! say to those who are captives in your hands: "If Allah findeth any good in your hearts, He will give you something better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

Al-Qur'an, 008.065-070 (Al-Anfal [Spoils of War, Booty])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.9

Qu'ran Sura 4: 72 onwards

004.072 There are certainly among you men who would tarry behind: If a misfortune befalls you, they say: "Allah did favour us in that we were not present among them."

004.073 But if good fortune comes to you from Allah, they would be sure to say - as if there had never been Ties of affection between you and them - "Oh! I wish I had been with them; a fine thing should I then have made of it!"

004.074 Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).

004.075 And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

Al-Qur'an, 004.072-075 (An-Nisa [Women])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.9

Context is a marvellous thing Crusader. READ the Sura's you quote, ALL of the verses not just plucking one or two out, out of context. You would be angered if a Muslim did it to the Bible, why would you then do it with the Qu'ran?

Kiwimac

[Krusader]

Look at the results, my friend - remember 9/11, and the jihadists who were promised heaven for "fighting" in the cause of "Allah." I have read the Quran twice, the verses are not lifted out of context. In fact, one of the chief themes of the Quran is violence at the behest of the prophet and his god.

[Jude3b]

Look at the results, my friend - remember 9/11, and the jihadists who were promised heaven for "fighting" in the cause of "Allah." I have read the Quran twice, the verses are not lifted out of context. In fact, one of the chief themes of the Quran is violence at the behest of the prophet and his god.

Dear Crusader:

It appears that the Muslim terrorists have placed us into a slow burning type of World War III. Almost every single day - all over the world - we read about another terrorist act. These acts are being done by murderers in the name of the Muslim religion.

Mundir Badr Haloum, lecturer at a Syrian university, penned a column in the Lebanese newspaper Al-Safir (Sept. 13, 2004), which stated that Muslims are behind virtually all worldwide terrorism.

Obviously Islam is not a religion of peace!

[Krusader]

Dear Crusader:

It appears that the Muslim terrorists have placed us into a slow burning type of World War III. Almost every single day - all over the world - we read about another terrorist act. These acts are being done by murderers in the name of the Muslim religion.

Mundir Badr Haloum, lecturer at a Syrian university, penned a column in the Lebanese newspaper Al-Safir (Sept. 13, 2004), which stated that Muslims are behind virtually all worldwide terrorism.

Obviously Islam is not a religion of peace!
Quite right, Jude3b. Of course, I believe what we are seeing has all been laid out for us in Scripture, and will ultimately culminate in Israel being surrounded by all the armies of the world. Of course, the Lord told us that when we see these things come to pass, look up! Praise the Lord that we have that blessed hope!

[Cynic Sage]

Today's world is plagued by rabid Islamic jihadists who joyously snuff out lives of innocent victims while hollering Allahu Akbar. On what basis do these jihadists commit these horrendous acts? Who is their model?

Mohammed, the Muslim prophet, forged the foundation of jihadist terrorism in his Quran. Consider some of the following from the Quran and Muslim authorities:

Bukhari:V4B52N220: Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been made victorious with terror.'
Quran 8:12: I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.
Quran: 8:67: It is not fitting for any peophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land.
Muslim:C20B1N4597: The Prophet said at the conquest of Mecca: 'There is no migration now, but only Jihad, fighting for the cause of Islam. When you are asked to set out on a Jihad expedition, you should readily do so.'
Quran 4:74: Let those who fight in Allah's Cause sell this world's life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah's Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward.

This is just a small taste of the traditions and surahs supporting modern jihadist terrorists. Osama is just following his master!
Oy-Vey!

Do you realize that the same er...uh... "technique" is used by atheists/agnostics. Just post some "mean biblegod" verses, and then proceed to blame Moses, David, Jesus and/or Paul for salvery/crusades/inquisitions/wars/greedy televangelists/disco and bada-bing bada-boom, Xtianity is discredited.

You are portraying a very poor argument against Islam. One based on Emotionalistic appeal/argument by outrage. (http://www.tektonics.org/guest/fallacies.html)

I am a xtian who believes Muhammad to have been a false prophet. And let me say have seen that same sick, pathetic pile of hippie-vomit, that you are indeed now using as an argument against Islam, to emotionally manipulate people against the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[kiwimac]

Crusader,

I live in hope that you will read the verses in context. Including the socio-political context of the suras. But I may be hoping for far too much.

Kiwimac

[Krusader]

Christians don't use the term "xtian." nice try

[Timothy Leary]

Christians don't use the term "xtian." nice try

Most do not - others do. In fact, it's original use was by Christian scribes.

[Cynic Sage]

Christians don't use the term "xtian." nice tryHey Buddy, I use it cuz it's quicker to type with.

EDIT:

I actually consider myself a "Messianic Gentile."

[Zeluvia]

I have to remind myself of some historical facts about Islam.

Islam has been the one of the most historically tolerant religions throughout its long history, treating both Christians and Jews as equal citizens most of the time, since it was taught that both are "people of the book".

During the Dark Ages of Christianity, Islam kept alive much of the knowlegde of math and science, and protected it while the church was busy destroying it.

While Islam was founded in a time of uniting a diverse group of tribes into a functioning nation, it indeed did have a rough and violent birth, but no less than when the Jewish nation retook Palestine after the Exodus.

Now, how has all this gone so badly wrong, that they have fundamentalists spreading terror, and it seems to me that what now happens is Christians also become more fundamentalist and violent and less tolerant. Both sides seem quite scary to me, in their convictions of self righteousness, and far off the mark of both Jesus and Mohammend's intentions.

I am neither Christian or Muslim nor Jewish, if I am anything I guess I would be a Secular Humanist. But to take quotes out of their books with the idea of spreading fear and hatred, is just wrong.

Yesterday I saw a Christian Evangelical preacher state the the Muslim god was the god of the sword, and we must fight against them with our god of love.
The god of love wouldnt use weapons would he? Turn the other cheek?

Isn't it better to ask "Why do they hate us?" and look to those reasons than to find justifications to hate them back? Isn't it wisdom to look to the history of this and see where the problem started? In most cases with a hate as large as the one they carry, there has to be a reason, and at the bottom of it is probably fear, a fear of us, and a threat to their way of life.

We learned last century a war fought by escalating armaments was a pointless exercise in mass suicide. Why didn't we learn a war escalating hate and fear will lead to the same result?

Thank you for a forum to express my own fears, fear of all religions.

[CatholicSage]

I have to remind myself of some historical facts about Islam.

Islam has been the one of the most historically tolerant religions throughout its long history, treating both Christians and Jews as equal citizens most of the time, since it was taught that both are "people of the book".


Yeah, let's forget that whole "Dhimmitude" thing.


During the Dark Ages of Christianity, Islam kept alive much of the knowlegde of math and science, and protected it while the church was busy destroying it.


You reveal utter ignorance of history here. It is true that Muslim scholars kept much knowledge alive, but Christian monks throughout Europe (especially Ireland and Italy) did just as much, if not more; the church was in no way involved in destroying knowlege. The Byzantine Empire was also a great source of classical learning and culture. You should also know that no real historian uses the term "Dark Ages" anymore because the negative connotations are highly undeserved.


While Islam was founded in a time of uniting a diverse group of tribes into a functioning nation, it indeed did have a rough and violent birth, but no less than when the Jewish nation retook Palestine after the Exodus.


Even ignoring the fact that I believe the Jews were acting on the command of God and Mohammed was not, you have skipped the part where Mohammed violently conquered areas far beyond his homeland, while the Jews did not.


Now, how has all this gone so badly wrong, that they have fundamentalists spreading terror, and it seems to me that what now happens is Christians also become more fundamentalist and violent and less tolerant. Both sides seem quite scary to me, in their convictions of self righteousness, and far off the mark of both Jesus and Mohammend's intentions.

I am neither Christian or Muslim nor Jewish, if I am anything I guess I would be a Secular Humanist. But to take quotes out of their books with the idea of spreading fear and hatred, is just wrong.


Seems to me that unprovoked war seems quite consistent with Islam, if you take a look at its early history. It was formed by the sword, so using the sword to fight now in the name of Islam doesn't seem too unusual.


Yesterday I saw a Christian Evangelical preacher state the the Muslim god was the god of the sword, and we must fight against them with our god of love.
The god of love wouldnt use weapons would he? Turn the other cheek?


Hmmm...I didn't listen to the preacher of course, but I don't think he is referring to fighting with weapons. I think he wants us to fight with love.


Isn't it better to ask "Why do they hate us?" and look to those reasons than to find justifications to hate them back? Isn't it wisdom to look to the history of this and see where the problem started? In most cases with a hate as large as the one they carry, there has to be a reason, and at the bottom of it is probably fear, a fear of us, and a threat to their way of life.


They hate us because of the perceived decadence of our culture (and it is true that the West is partly decadent) and because we do not submit to Islam and Sharia law. Their despicable leaders have brainwashed them to believe that the West is the cause of all their problems.


We learned last century a war fought by escalating armaments was a pointless exercise in mass suicide. Why didn't we learn a war escalating hate and fear will lead to the same result?

Thank you for a forum to express my own fears, fear of all religions.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how the Cold War was a lesson in mass suicide; we won, and the evil Soviet Union fell without a real fight. I agree that it is wrong to hate, but I don't think that fighting the terrorists will lead to mutual destruction.

[Snarf]

Crusader,

I live in hope that you will read the verses in context. Including the socio-political context of the suras. But I may be hoping for far too much.

Kiwimac

This is just Jude's and Crusader's way of showing everyone what loving Christians they are, by declaring their hatred for Muslims, implying that they are all commanded to be killers by their religion, etc. Curiously, neither can explain why the vast majority of Muslims live normal peaceful lives just going about their business.

Essentially, Jude and Crusader simply like hating Muslims and they like telling everyone how evil muslims are. What the purpose is, I am not sure, unless they think that their arguments will convince Muslims to stop being Muslims because Jude and Crusader think that they are all commanded to be killers (probably even the 80 year Muslim women are commanded to sneak attack all infidels by whacking them in the crotch with their walking sticks, by their logic).

The only other possible reason for their hate is that they like hate, apparantly unable to follow Jesus's command to "Love thy enemies."
Whatever the reason is, if it were possible, I would love to see a video of either Jude or Crusader going up to a real live Muslim, not shielded by anonymity, and saying what they think to a Muslim's face.

[Jude3b]

This is just Jude's and Crusader's way of showing everyone what loving Christians they are, by declaring their hatred for Muslims, implying that they are all commanded to be killers by their religion, etc. Curiously, neither can explain why the vast majority of Muslims live normal peaceful lives just going about their business.

Essentially, Jude and Crusader simply like hating Muslims and they like telling everyone how evil muslims are. What the purpose is, I am not sure, unless they think that their arguments will convince Muslims to stop being Muslims because Jude and Crusader think that they are all commanded to be killers (probably even the 80 year Muslim women are commanded to sneak attack all infidels by whacking them in the crotch with their walking sticks, by their logic).

The only other possible reason for their hate is that they like hate, apparantly unable to follow Jesus's command to "Love thy enemies."
Whatever the reason is, if it were possible, I would love to see a video of either Jude or Crusader going up to a real live Muslim, not shielded by anonymity, and saying what they think to a Muslim's face.

You know Snarf- your a blindfaced LIAR! You do not know my heart and you do not know the love that dwells within it for dear Muslim people. I love them and my only desire is to see them saved and delivered from their false religion. God will deal with you and your lies about me and other Christians.

[kiwimac]

Attitudes like Crusader's and Jude's lean me more and more towards zoroastrianism or Liberal Judaism.

Kiwimac

[Snarf]

You know Snarf- your a blindfaced LIAR! You do not know my heart and you do not know the love that dwells within it for dear Muslim people. I love them and my only desire is to see them saved and delivered from their false religion. God will deal with you and your lies about me and other Christians.

You love them by calling their beliefs a religion of violence?
HAHAHAHA!!!!

This is why I seriously wonder about the mental condition of evangelicals such as yourself. Evangelicals call abortion 'genocide,' Muslims 'terrorists,' evolution 'the basis for all immorality,' homosexual marriage 'the destruction of marriage,' etc. After hurling all of these insults, they then write books titled "Why won't they listen." Evangelicals have arrogated to themselves the right to say lies about and generally insult everyone who is not like them, and then are astonished that more people don't want to be like them.

You are a perfect example an evangelical who can dish it out, but can't take it. You make hateful statements about all muslims, but get upset when you feel insulted.

DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE OTHERS DO UNTO YOU.

Can't take insults? Too bad, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Stop hurling your insults, and maybe you would find that others might be a little nicer to you.

Aren't you one who says that all, including yourself, deserve death for their sins? Well, if you really are the abominable sinner that you claim to be, then how do you, a self-proclaimed sinner, elevate yourself to be the judge of millions of people?

[Krusader]

Snarf, "love your enemies," does not entail acceptance of false doctrines. This is a "progressive," otherwise known as far-left liberal ploy, often used by those on the fringe of Christianity to justify acceptance of all kinds of heterodox, unorthodox, anti-Christ, doctrines that have infiltrated liberal Western Christianity. ECUSA is a great example.

To point out the error of Islam is no different than pointing out the error of Molech-worship. Get a grip.

[Krusader]

Hey Buddy, I use it cuz it's quicker to type with.

EDIT:

I actually consider myself a "Messianic Gentile."
Please, I'm not your buddy. It is demeaning to Our Lord to use the "x" in place of His Name. If you truly believe in the Messiah, then you will at least respect His Name - since He is God.

[Krusader]

Good for that evangelical Preacher!

[Krusader]

Attitudes like Crusader's and Jude's lean me more and more towards zoroastrianism or Liberal Judaism.

Kiwimac
Kiwimac, yes, I believe you've found your niche. You can be a flame-keeper in a Zoroastrian temple. Fits nicely with the Josephite thing.

[Snarf]

Snarf, "love your enemies," does not entail acceptance of false doctrines. This is a "progressive," otherwise known as far-left liberal ploy, often used by those on the fringe of Christianity to justify acceptance of all kinds of heterodox, unorthodox, anti-Christ, doctrines that have infiltrated liberal Western Christianity. ECUSA is a great example.

To point out the error of Islam is no different than pointing out the error of Molech-worship. Get a grip.

There's a difference between pointing out potential errors of a religious belief,
and saying that it is the foundation of terrorism. Of course, since Christians have killed far more people througout history, and the God worshiped by Christians told His followers to slaughter pagans, kill homosexuals and adulterers, etc, and you consider this "holy," then by the same logic
your belief is equally violent. Your belief, Crusader is the reason for the massacre of thousands in Europe, South America, everywhere where Christians killed others for their beliefs.

Further, since you cannot prove your religious beliefs to be "true," then neither can you prove other beliefs to be "false."

Love your enemy means to treat others as you want to be treated. From your hatred, I assume that this is how you want to be treated. Suck up what you start, or haven't you got the guts?

[Krusader]

There's a difference between pointing out potential errors of a religious belief,
and saying that it is the foundation of terrorism. Of course, since Christians have killed far more people througout history, and the God worshiped by Christians told His followers to slaughter pagans, kill homosexuals and adulterers, etc, and you consider this "holy," then by the same logic
your belief is equally violent. Your belief, Crusader is the reason for the massacre of thousands in Europe, South America, everywhere where Christians killed others for their beliefs.

Further, since you cannot prove your religious beliefs to be "true," then neither can you prove other beliefs to be "false."

Love your enemy means to treat others as you want to be treated. From your hatred, I assume that this is how you want to be treated. Suck up what you start, or haven't you got the guts?
Snarf: Do you have any particular brand of religious beliefs? Obviously, they are not appearing in your profile. Talk about lack of guts!

Furthermore, if you identify everybody that has had water sprinkled on their heads as a Christian, then, of course, you would even consider Hitler a Christian, and can attribute the slaughter of millions of Jews, etc., to Christians.

I identify Christians as those who, having been regenerated by faith in Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, have a new nature and walk in the footsteps of their Lord - Who slaughtered not a soul.

However, Mohammed ordered thousands slain, especially Jews. It is the example of Mohammed that the jihadists follow. Prove otherwise.

[jwkenne]

There's a difference between pointing out potential errors of a religious belief,
and saying that it is the foundation of terrorism. Of course, since Christians have killed far more people througout history, and the God worshiped by Christians told His followers to slaughter pagans, kill homosexuals and adulterers, etc, and you consider this "holy," then by the same logic
your belief is equally violent. Your belief, Crusader is the reason for the massacre of thousands in Europe, South America, everywhere where Christians killed others for their beliefs.

Further, since you cannot prove your religious beliefs to be "true," then neither can you prove other beliefs to be "false."

Love your enemy means to treat others as you want to be treated. From your hatred, I assume that this is how you want to be treated. Suck up what you start, or haven't you got the guts?

I mean no insult here, but, to use your logic:

IF I were following a philosophy which explicitly advocated the use of violence towards others of a different religous persuasion...
THEN I would appreciate the efforts of others to inform me of this "problem" within my philosophy.

Now, that is not to say that I agree with either side here, but one can make an argument (fairly easily, I might add), that Islam clearly advocates violence toward the unbeliever. This argument does not need draw on Post-Koran history, the actions of present-day muslims, or anything else. It can be made using only the Koran.

So...if you disagree with said argument, then give your reasons why, but quoting history, be it Christian or Muslim, is not relevant.

In other words, if one wants to say that the Koran advocates violence/terrorism, then this would need to be refuted using the Koran itself.

If you told me that the Christian New Testament was "anti-homosexual", I surely wouldn't respond by saying that Buddha was a zealous over-eater, and then call you a "Christian hater". I would show you form scripture why your argument fails. I have yet top see anyone do this with the Koran.

[Timothy Leary]

Please, I'm not your buddy. It is demeaning to Our Lord to use the "x" in place of His Name. If you truly believe in the Messiah, then you will at least respect His Name - since He is God.

Crusader, as I mentioned, it started in a common scribal practice. It's not mean to be demeaning, and it is only demeaning when someone uses it in such a way, as certain non-theists do.

[Krusader]

Crusader, as I mentioned, it started in a common scribal practice. It's not mean to be demeaning, and it is only demeaning when someone uses it in such a way, as certain non-theists do.
Let me rephrase that. Evangelical Christians consider this practice to be offensive. Just as Jews might consider the complete spelling of G-d, without the hyphen, to be somewhat disrespectful, so Christians (evangelicals) consider the use of the X in place of Christ, to be disrespectful and insulting.

[Cynic Sage]

Crusader, as I mentioned, it started in a common scribal practice. It's not mean to be demeaning, and it is only demeaning when someone uses it in such a way, as certain non-theists do.True, true, the "X" would be pronounced "chi" in the original greek.

:rant: And Crusader, like it or not I am still your brother in Christ. I am not some John-Shelby-Spong-Bob-disciple/DaVinci Code readin'/ "Jesus-thought-and-acted-like-a-modern-day-hippie-even-though-he-lived-in-an-honor-shame-collectivist-society-known-as-the-Ancient-Near-East-and-if-you-don't-think-so-you're-a-big-meanie"/"Making-moral-judgements-is-WRONG-WRONG-WRONG!" Liberal xtian.

I believe the mistake that you are making with the Koran is the same one many incompetent Bible critics make with the Bible: Reading it like a Newspaper/like it was written yesterday and for you personally.

Keep in mind that they are both ancient documents originating from foreign cultures. Read up on some A.N.E culture and then come back and vent.

BTW: If it's my sig that's puttin' you off. It has to do with an guy named Steamer that usually hangs out in the Locker Room. His signature says: "Blood doesn't cleanse, it stains." wherehas mine says
Blood doesn't cleanse, unless you are speaking metaphorically to explain propitiation and atonement.
thereby showing Steamer's misunderstanding of Biblical terminology.

[Krusader]

How often have you read the Quran? I have read it twice in two versions, and several commentaries by Muslims. It is very hard to take anything out of context in the Quran, since verses appear at random in many places, apparently without any real context.

As far as the use of "x" in place of Christ - perhaps my brand of Christianity is more conservative than yours. Our pastor spoke about this very thing in Church a few Sundays ago.

I go to a conservative Baptist (Independent) Church.

[Snarf]

Snarf: Do you have any particular brand of religious beliefs? Obviously, they are not appearing in your profile. Talk about lack of guts!

Furthermore, if you identify everybody that has had water sprinkled on their heads as a Christian, then, of course, you would even consider Hitler a Christian, and can attribute the slaughter of millions of Jews, etc., to Christians.

I identify Christians as those who, having been regenerated by faith in Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, have a new nature and walk in the footsteps of their Lord - Who slaughtered not a soul.

However, Mohammed ordered thousands slain, especially Jews. It is the example of Mohammed that the jihadists follow. Prove otherwise.

One, I suggest that you look at the cross next to my name, I am Baptist.

Two, I identify as being Christian all those who say "Jesus is Lord" in some form, whether privately or in liturgy, and claim to be. How many people do you know well enough to know their walk? Do you have the eyes of God, that you can know the hearts of all that have ever lived and can say who now, in the 1900's, in the 1800's, etc, is or was Christian?

Jesus is God, therefore all commands attributed to God in the OT to kill pagans, adulterers, homosexuals, etc. all came from Jesus, because Jesus is God. In other words, Jesus dictated and upheld the laws ordering the Israelites to kill, and sent the angel of death to the Egyptians.

[Krusader]

One, I suggest that you look at the cross next to my name, I am Baptist.

Two, I identify as being Christian all those who say "Jesus is Lord" in some form, whether privately or in liturgy, and claim to be. How many people do you know well enough to know their walk? Do you have the eyes of God, that you can know the hearts of all that have ever lived and can say who now, in the 1900's, in the 1800's, etc, is or was Christian?

Jesus is God, therefore all commands attributed to God in the OT to kill pagans, adulterers, homosexuals, etc. all came from Jesus, because Jesus is God. In other words, Jesus dictated and upheld the laws ordering the Israelites to kill, and sent the angel of death to the Egyptians.
There are many who call themselves "Baptist." However, there are some who like to use that name but do not hold fast the Baptist profession. Not everyone who names the name of Christ means the Jesus of the Gospels.

Jessie Jackson calls himself a Baptist but embraces abortion. So did Clinton .

It appears to me that your calling yourself a Baptist, and being a Baptist, may be two different things.

[Snarf]

There are many who call themselves "Baptist." However, there are some who like to use that name but do not hold fast the Baptist profession. Not everyone who names the name of Christ means the Jesus of the Gospels.

Jessie Jackson calls himself a Baptist but embraces abortion. So did Clinton .

It appears to me that your calling yourself a Baptist, and being a Baptist, may be two different things.

Please give your definition of a "Baptist." Also please give your basis of authority for deciding who is and who isn't a Baptist. In my case it is because I hold to the basic statements of belief by the American Baptist Convention, and was baptized after giving my testimony of faith. What are your standards? Or do you just go by who you happen to agree with or like?

[Krusader]

Please give your definition of a "Baptist." Also please give your basis of authority for deciding who is and who isn't a Baptist. In my case it is because I hold to the basic statements of belief by the American Baptist Convention, and was baptized after giving my testimony of faith. What are your standards? Or do you just go by who you happen to agree with or like?
I thought you'd say American Baptist. No, our church would not be in fellowship with the American Baptists. As conservative Independent Baptists, we would consider the American Baptist Church to hold views contrary to Scripture. This is why individuals such as Jessie Jackson can claim to be Baptists (American), but hold to the view that murdering pre-born infants by crushing their skulls and extracting them shortly before they are due to be born, is fine.

That's not to say you are not a Christian, of course; however, conservative Baptists hold to the Scriptural view of separation.

[kiwimac]

Crusader,

Run out of things to say, did you? Thought you'd try an ad hominem attack or two, eh?

ANSWER the question: Where is the Community of Christ's statement concerning God unorthodox?

As for the xtian bit, you are maybe unaware that the 'x' here is the Greek Letter "chi" and as such it is both an acceptable and long-used contraction for Christian or Christ.

Now, the Qu'ran, I have read in 4 or 5 versions, and many, many times (25+) your comments concerning the verses are simply, wrong. The context of the verse is ALWAYS within the surah in which it falls, each surah also has a context within the socio-political events of the time in which it was written.

Finally, your comments about other Christians are simply an indicator of the level of spiritual pride which so obviously bedevils you. IT IS NOT YOUR JOB but God's alone to judge human hearts. Your job is to find ways in which you can work WITH your Brothers and Sisters in Him, furthermore it is the job of the reaper to separate the tares from the wheat not that of the wheat.

Kiwimac

[Krusader]

Crusader,

Run out of things to say, did you? Thought you'd try an ad hominem attack or two, eh?

ANSWER the question: Where is the Community of Christ's statement concerning God unorthodox?

As for the xtian bit, you are mayber aware that the 'x' here is the Greek Letter "chi" and as such it is both an acceptable and long-used contraction for Christian or Christ.

Now, the Qu'ran, I have read in 4 or 5 versions, and many, many times (25+) your comments concerning the verses are simply, wrong. The context of the verse is ALWAYS within the surah in which it falls, each surah also has a context within the socio-political events of the time in which it was written.

Finally, your comments about other Christians are simply an indicator of the level of spiritual pride which so obviously bedevils you. IT IS NOT YOUR JOB but God's alone to judge human hearts. Your job is to find ways in which you can work WITH your Brothers and Sisters in Him, further more it is the job of the reaper to separate the tares from the wheat not the wheats.

Kiwimac
Kiwi, what's the matter with you. Get out from among the kangaroos and see my response to the Community of Christ issue over on the other thread.

As for the rest of your wonderful comments - I'm going home now, so I'll get to those later. By the way, I find ultra-liberal progressives such as yourself to be very boring.

[Timothy Leary]

Let me rephrase that. Evangelical Christians consider this practice to be offensive. Just as Jews might consider the complete spelling of G-d, without the hyphen, to be somewhat disrespectful, so Christians (evangelicals) consider the use of the X in place of Christ, to be disrespectful and insulting.

I guess it depends on locations, then. I first learned of the practice of writing "Xian" or "Xmas" from Baptists who had no qualms with it.

[Timothy Leary]

Kiwi, what's the matter with you. Get out from among the kangaroos and see my response to the Community of Christ issue over on the other thread.

As for the rest of your wonderful comments - I'm going home now, so I'll get to those later. By the way, I find ultra-liberal progressives such as yourself to be very boring.

Please refrain from Ad hominem attacks.

[Krusader]

Please refrain from Ad hominem attacks.
And ad womenin attacks.

[Snarf]

I thought you'd say American Baptist. No, our church would not be in fellowship with the American Baptists. As conservative Independent Baptists, we would consider the American Baptist Church to hold views contrary to Scripture. This is why individuals such as Jessie Jackson can claim to be Baptists (American), but hold to the view that murdering pre-born infants by crushing their skulls and extracting them shortly before they are due to be born, is fine.

That's not to say you are not a Christian, of course; however, conservative Baptists hold to the Scriptural view of separation.

Maybe you believe American baptists to hold views contrary to Scripture, but that's your fallible human opinion, not God's. For example, since the Bible does not talk about abortion, the Bible has nothing to say on abortion. Thus, there is no unscriptural view of abortion.

[Jude3b]

I mean no insult here, but, to use your logic:

IF I were following a philosophy which explicitly advocated the use of violence towards others of a different religous persuasion...
THEN I would appreciate the efforts of others to inform me of this "problem" within my philosophy.

Now, that is not to say that I agree with either side here, but one can make an argument (fairly easily, I might add), that Islam clearly advocates violence toward the unbeliever. This argument does not need draw on Post-Koran history, the actions of present-day muslims, or anything else. It can be made using only the Koran.

So...if you disagree with said argument, then give your reasons why, but quoting history, be it Christian or Muslim, is not relevant.



In other words, if one wants to say that the Koran advocates violence/terrorism, then this would need to be refuted using the Koran itself.

If you told me that the Christian New Testament was "anti-homosexual", I surely wouldn't respond by saying that Buddha was a zealous over-eater, and then call you a "Christian hater". I would show you form scripture why your argument fails. I have yet top see anyone do this with the Koran.

Dear jwkenne:

Thank you for your excellent points. I have been hoping for a long time to see an Islamic person - who really knows the Koran - to defend from the Koran - with scripture and verse - their religions claim to being "a religion of peace" and not the terroristic religion that we see causing murder and mayhem all over the earth.

The lack of defense on their part along these lines convinces me even more that what I read in the Koran is truly a motivation for the suicide bombers to kill in the name of their religion of Islam.

[Snarf]

Dear jwkenne:

Thank you for your excellent points. I have been hoping for a long time to see an Islamic person - who really knows the Koran - to defend from the Koran - with scripture and verse - their religions claim to being "a religion of peace" and not the terroristic religion that we see causing murder and mayhem all over the earth.

The lack of defense on their part along these lines convinces me even more that what I read in the Koran is truly a motivation for the suicide bombers to kill in the name of their religion of Islam.

Below are two well-written defenses written by a Muslim, Silver Rain, which you have not responded to. Since he directly discusses the issue, along with verses from the Koran, your statement of "lack of defense" is a lie. Why cannot you not be truthful and admit to the existence of text on your own thread? Do you think that if you repeat a lie often enought it will become the truth?

From Silver Rain

Greetings to all my fellow Christian and Non-Christian brethren here.

I greet you all with the Muslim Greeting of Assalamu Alaikum. Peace be Upon You All.

I see that I am the first Muslim poster coming across this board, and I will do my best to answer most of the points brought up thus far.

First and foremost, I would like to share my own knowledge and studies that I have done on this topic and then I will offer a "Khutbah" or Friday Sermon given at the Islamic Center of Irvine in Southern California this past summer which addresses this topic in detail as well.

Allow me to begin with my thoughts on the matter. I want to start off by making it very clear that in Islam, as in any religion, we must separate the Religion itself (i.e. doctrines, morals, traditions, etc.) from the followers of that religion. The reason, as believed in Islam, is that the faith of Islam is perfect in all ways, but the followers (being human) are not perfect. The followers are subject to corruption, immorality, and inequity. This goes across the board for all religions. A cursory glance at Christian history and all the horrors that have been done in the name of Christianity, does not in any way mean that the Christian faith itself justifies or calls for such atrocities. In fact any layman that is familiar with the Christian faith would agree that Jesus (Peace be Upon Him) taught love, peace, and a high regard for ethics.

Now moving on the events in recent history regarded as barbarism and terrorism that is done by Muslims and claimed to be justified by the Islamic faith. I would be the first to point out that the vast majority of the current acts are seemingly done by "Muslims" across the world. And there is a very interesting reason for this which has absolutely little to do with the faith of Islam itself. If one studies Islamic history and traces it to the state in which it is today, one may find the answer. As the Ottoman Empire declined and with it the Islamic civilizations, the Muslims of the world became oppressed under tyrannical regimes and the decline economically, socially, and intellectually inevitably followed. Interestingly enough, the West itself has had a large part to play in this phenomenon. The West, particularly the US, has had a long history of sponsoring autocratic and oppressive regimes in the Muslim World. Many Americans and citizens of the World today do not recall or have knowledge of the fact that the US sponsored the oppressive and tyrannical regime of Saddam Hussein into power. And ofcourse we can see the result of that today. This is but one example of immoral US policies in the Muslim World. The morally bankrupt Shahs of Iran, the financial support of the oppressive regime in Jordan, and the hypocrisy of US and the Algerian hypocrites in destorying the democractic process in Algeria, are all other fine examples.

Now, one may ask, what relevance this has to the issue at hand. Its very simple. Whenever there is an injustice perpetrated against a people, Muslims in this example, and this injustice and oppression is not redressed and corrected, than these oppressed people seek other means of seeking justice. Thats where terrorism comes into play. The reason why the majority of terrorist attacks are done by Muslims today is because the Muslim World has been subjected to oppression and injustice since the better part of this past 20th century. This is all politically motivated. It realistically has little to do with Islam. It is simply the Muslim's way of attempting to seek peace and justice on their own which inevitably leads to chaos and other consequences not intended (i.e. blowback). In which most of these actions, if not all, taken by Muslims have actually been contradictory to the Islamic faith. In Islam, the ends must justify the means. The ideas of Muslims forcing conversions on Non-Muslims and the killing of innocents are simply not permitted. Allow me to quote from the Qur'an that make this explicitly clear:


“…Whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.” [Qur'an 5:32]

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." [Qur'an 2:256]


Now, I hope I have made myself clear in the paragraphs above. The terrorism currently spawned in the Muslim World, which has largely been an attack on US interests is simply a response to twisted, injust US foreign policies. Take 9/11 for example. Bin Laden has stated very clearly this is in response to the unilateral support for Israel the US has held too long at the cost of the well being of the Palestinian people. If Bin Laden had the means to launch an offensive all out war on Israel, I am certain he would not have hesitated to do it. But terrorism is used by people as a tool to attempt to influence political action by way of inflicting terror on the nations interests, citizens, etc. Although there is widespread injustice going on in Israel against the Palestinians and the US is holding on to a double standard here, in Islam these acts are not justified. Namely the killing of innocents, and the end not justifying the means. So in Islam these attacks were simply not an option and should be abhorred entirely.

To the Muslim, Islam is a complete way of life, and it is stated very clearly that a Muslim must not bow down to oppression, but terrorism is not to be the method used to fight oppression.

Moving on, I would like to make a quick response to a few of the comments mentioned ealier in this topic.

Mentioned earlier about Muslims only worshipping Allah out of fear and not love... this is grossly incorrect. In Islam it is believed that the worship of God is a balance of hope and fear. This is essentialy what keeps us in balance, hope for His mercy, and fear of His punishment... this keeps a Muslim enjoining in the Good, and forbidding what is Evil. The essence of Islamic Law and ideology is Mercy, not fear.

Quoting what was said earlier:

"After Muhammed died in 632 AD, his followers, the peace lovers that they were, and incidentally those who had direct contact with the "prophet" then proceeded in peaceful and loving fashion to go on a 100 year conquering spree, taking over Arabia, the Holy Land, North Africa and Spain, until they were stomped by Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours in 732 AD."

My friend, you need to read your Islamic history. The early Caliphs, namely Caliph Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (may God be pleased with him) was one of the most just men and conquerors in the history of mankind. It was under him in which Jerusalem, North Africa, and the Persian empire were conquered. He was a man of principle and morality. He would never take a favor in which his people lacked, including the Non-Muslims. There are many sound stories to support this. One in which there once was a poor, old Jewish man in Jerusalem going around begging. Umar immediately went to him to ask why why he was begging, and ended up taking him to his house providing him with money and paying him a pension for his retirement. The Jews and Christians in Jersualem living under Umar were given full rights. They had their own court systems and were allowed to practice their religions freely. The justice of Umar Ibn Al-Khattab and his leadership is unmatched, and brought in an era of tolerance never before seen by a non-secular government, and you would even be hard-pressed to find it in a secular government (i.e. US). I urge you to read up on this subject to educate yourself.


"I think the problem with Islam is the Quran and the way it is written. It is not a clearcut book of morals and examples like the bible, with stories and explanations... It means that it is much easier to read Quaran verses and twist them to whatever meaning the person wants to, since there is no real context to them. So one person will read a verse and say it means live in peace with everyone. Another person will read the same verse and say it means live in peace with muslims but kill nonmuslims."

Clear ignorance here... the Qur'an mentions plenty of similitudes, analogies, and stories for man to comprehend and apply. Above all, Islam has direct reference and interpretation. This is done by the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). He was described in a Hadith as a "walking Qur'an". He followed the Qur'an in every aspect of his life. His speech, actions, morals were all done in perfect correlation with the Qur'an. To the contrary, the reason why there is so much room for interpretation in the Bible, and over 100 denominations in the Christian faith is because of the practical matter that there really is no reference. We do not really have a direct reference and example for the Bible as we do with the Qur'an as demonstrated by the Prophet.


About the claim that scholars in the Muslim World are not condemning the terrorism and barbarism that is done by Muslims, this is absolutely incorrect. There has been widespread condemnation by the Scholars in Al-Azhar University in Egypt, considered among the greatest scholars in Islam, and also the Scholars in Saudi Arabia, namely Mekkah and Medinah. Also, locally CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) has repeatedly condemned every terrorist attack done by Muslims on a regular basis. They even ran a campaign labled "Not In Our Name" that ran in all major newspapers nationwide (NY Times, Washington Post, etc.) and can be seen at their website www.CAIR.org.

Also a small list of local Muslims condeming terrorism:

CAIR-KY: TRUE MUSLIMS REJECT VIOLENCE AND TERROR
Adbdul Quayym, Lexington Herald-Ledger, 6/20/04

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/...ers/8965695.htm



KORAN DOESN'T CALL FOR BEHEADINGS
Peronet Despeignes, USA Today, 6/20/04

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-06...eheadings_x.htm



ISLAMIC SOCIETY CONDEMNS KILLING
Meesum Ashraf, Toronto Star, 6/21/04

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentSe...d=1087769408372



TX MUSLIMS DENOUNCE AL-QAIDA'S KILLING OF AMERICAN
Tyler Morning Telegraph, 6/18/04

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=...id=341384&rfi=6



MUSLIMS IN W.VA. CONDEMN SLAYING
Jamie Henline, Charleston Gazette, 6/21/04

http://www.wvgazette.com/section/News/2004062024



MUSLIMS HERE EXPRESS OUTRAGE
Rhea Davis and Joe Stinebaker, Houston Chronicle, 6/19/04

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/2635696



N.J. MUSLIMS, ARABS CONDEMN BEHEADING
Catherine Jun, Star-Ledger, 6/20/04

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jerse...47808194053.xml



I do agree that we do not hear these condemnation on the mainstream media very much, and that is very unfortunate. This could be do to the fact that most of the mainstream media is Pro-Zionist, but that is another topic all together. I do not agree with the media's equation of Islam and terrorism. "Islam" or "Islamic" has almost become a prefix to "terrorism" and "fanaticism" inappropriately, which is very disconcerting.

And with that, I would like to close. I hope I have answered some questions here, and will try to keep up and be active on this board as time allows. I will provide the Friday Sermon under this post for those interested in reading it.

Thank You for your Time.

Salam. Peace.

Islamic Center Of Irvine KHUTBAH 106 - June 18, 2004
Copyright © Islamic Center Of Irvine

Killing of the Innocent


"Take not life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. Thus, does Allah advise you that you may understand."[Al-Qur'an 6:151]


Dastardly News:

It is with deep sadness and utter disgust that we, as people of Faith and of conscience, receive the news of the diabolical beheading of 49-year-old American aeronautics engineer Paul Marshal Johnson, who was held hostage in Saudi Arabia. His desperate family pleaded for his life as a deadline set by his kidnappers (Al-Qaeda Organization in the Arabian Peninsula) loomed.
"Please release my father. He is an innocent man. He loves Muslims. Saudi Arabia was his home", Johnson's son Paul told Dubai-based Al-Arabiya television from the United States. He said his father has lived in Saudi Arabia for a decade and values Islamic culture. Once, he said, his father sent family members a Quran, with passages highlighted from the Islamic holy text that he felt were important.

Attack on Foreigners:

The cowardly abduction and horrendous execution of Johnson is the latest chain in a series of anti-foreigners attacks in the Kingdom, drew outrage among religious scholars, with the Imam of Al-Masjid Al-Haram in Makkah ascertaining during his Friday sermon that attacking innocent non-Muslims is strictly forbidden in Islam. Addressing worshippers in Al-Haram mosque in the holy Islamic city of Makkah today, the prominent scholar condemned killing of the non-Muslim civilians as religiously forbidden. "There are a few who want to shed blood of people of faiths (Christians and Jews); such pay no heed to the injunctions of the Qur’an or Sunnah." Sheikh Saleh Bin Abdullah said.


No Islamic basis:

Based on the verses:

"Whoever takes one single life without justification, is as if he has killed the entire humanity" [Quran 5:32]

"Take not life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause." [Al-Qur'an, 6:151] ...

it is Islamically unlawful to take the life of anyone who is innocent. It is well to remember at this point the distinction made above between Qur'an and Sunnah, and the Muslims: only the Qur'an and Sunnah are guaranteed to be in accordance with what the Creator desires, whereas some Muslims may deviate. Hence, if any Muslim kills an innocent person, that Muslim has committed a grave sin, and certainly the action cannot be claimed to have been done ‘in the name of Islam’.
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is reported to have said, a believer remains within the scope of his religion as long as he doesn't kill another person without justification.

It should be clear, then, that ‘Muslim terrorist’ is almost an oxymoron: by killing innocent people, a ‘Muslim’ is committing an awesome sin, and in fact stepping out of the bounds of Islam. Such acts are tantamount to spreading ‘corruption on earth’, against which the Qur’an warns [Qur'an 2:11-12] [Qur'an 18:103-104]. The perpetrators of such shameful deeds assume that they are doing good, while in fact they are spreaders of chaos and corruption.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) warned thrice, "Beware of extremism in your religion." Islam is the middle way between excess and neglect. Zealots are a plague upon religion. Muslim scholars have observed that these extremists come basically in two types:

Reactionary extremists do not want any pluralism; they view the world in black and white, good and evil terms. They are good, and anyone who opposes them is evil. From among the Muslims these are people who ‘excommunicate’ any Muslim who fails to share their interpretations of the Quran and their understanding of Faith. They use takfir (denouncing a Muslim as an unbeliever) and character assassination as a tool for marginalizing any criticism directed at them.
The radical extremists differ only in that they will use violence to further their cause and that the end justifies the means. They see any act as acceptable if it will further their ‘cause.’ This is blatantly anti-Islamic. In Islam the means must reflect its noble ends. Any means that does not embody the core truths and ethics of Islam is not from Islam and thus denounced as aberration. Islam is not a secret society of conspirators who no one knows what they are planning. Islam declares openly its aims and objectives and these are recognized by good people everywhere as pure and congruent with their own wisdom and traditions. Islam never allows a Muslim to kill the innocent and the helpless.

Many among Muslims seem to have lost sound understanding of the teachings of our Faith. Islam has been hijacked by a discourse of anger and the rhetoric of rage. Some have allowed the mimbar/pulpit of some mosques to become bully pulpits in which people use anger to rile Muslims up, only to leave them feeling bitter and spiteful towards people who in the most part are completely unaware of the conditions in the Muslim world, or the oppressive assaults of some foreign interests on Muslim peoples.


Islamic Prohibitions Pertaining to Prisoners :

Though Mr. Johnson was abducted and taken hostage, both unacceptable in Islam; our Faith demands just treatment of even prisoners of war, what to speak of hostages/abductees. The following are Islamic prohibitions pertaining to treatment of prisoners as agreed upon by the consensus of Muslim scholarship ...

Mutilation: It is not permitted to punish a prisoner by cutting off any part of his body or breaking any of his bones. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) forbade mutilation of prisoners of war and said, "Do not mutilate." (Narrated in the collection of Imam Muslim).

Hitting the face is prohibited because of the humiliation involved. By the same token, it is not permitted to put chains on prisoners’ necks or to lay them on the ground to whip them, because this involves humiliation and harms their health and bodies.

Punishment by fire, strangulation or holding a prisoner’s head under water. Starving prisoners or exposing them to cold, or feeding them harmful things or food not permitted according to the prisoner’s religion, or preventing them from wearing clothes. If a prisoner dies because of such things, his jailer may be executed in retribution (qisaas) or be required to pay diyah (blood money).

Removing prisoners’ clothing. This is prohibited because it uncovers their `awrah (private parts) and exposes them to physical and psychological illness.

Preventing them from relieving themselves, doing ablution and praying. It is obvious that this is harmful to the prisoners’ health.

Moreover, one of my teachers in Cairo, Sheikh `Atiya Saqr (former head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee) reminds us that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) urged Muslims to show good treatment to war captives; he said to his Companions: "Treat the prisoners of war kindly." Relating how the Companions complied strictly with this order given by the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, one of the prisoners of Badr, a non-Muslim named Huzayr ibn Humayr, states: "I was with one of Madinan Ansari families, after being taken as captive. Whenever they had lunch or dinner, they used to give me preference by providing me with bread while they’d eat only dates, in showing compliance with the Prophet’s order of treating prisoners well."


Our Unreserved Condemnation:

We assert unequivocal condemnation based on our religious and ethical values and as Muslims living in America as part of the ummah / global community of faith.
We realize that we do not have to react to every maniacal incident emanating from the Muslim world or the Muslim community, just as other religious groups need not defend their extremists;
Notwithstanding the disbelief that anyone following the faith of Islam could commit such a heinous crime, we condemn the act regardless of the identity of the perpetrators; but more so that they claim to be Muslim and committing this crime in the name of Islam.

We should not diminish our resolve to be active in protecting the civil liberties of all people and struggling for justice both locally and globally;
We fear that reciprocal attacks on Muslims could occur.
We firmly believe that no political/religious cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.

May Allah protect the innocent from the injustices of the self-righteous.


http://www.islamiccenterofirvine.co...bah/Khutbah_106

[Krusader]

It should be noted that Sura 2:256 was abrogated by later suras which state that only Islam is acceptable to Allah, and that those who do not follow it will be roasting in the pit!

[Slayer-2004]

I couldn't begin to list the ways the pot has called the kettle black in this thread .

[One Bad Pig]

There are many who call themselves "Baptist." However, there are some who like to use that name but do not hold fast the Baptist profession. Not everyone who names the name of Christ means the Jesus of the Gospels.

Jessie Jackson calls himself a Baptist but embraces abortion. So did Clinton .

It appears to me that your calling yourself a Baptist, and being a Baptist, may be two different things.
IIRC, the Southern Baptists kicked Clinton out. (Full disclosure: I'm a Southern Baptist).

[Heathen Dawn]

Mohammed's terrible legacy

Today's world is plagued by rabid Islamic jihadists who joyously snuff out lives of innocent victims while hollering Allahu Akbar.

Posted by:

Crusader

Does anyone else see the irony?

(The crusaders were the ones who joyously snuffed out lives of innocent victims while hollering “Deus Lo Volt,” by the way)

[Cleombrotus]

Posted by:

Crusader

Does anyone else see the irony?

(The crusaders were the ones who joyously snuffed out lives of innocent victims while hollering “Deus Lo Volt,” by the way)



Yeah. The irony is that the Crusades happened many centuries ago and were, in fact, a response to Islamic expansionism, while the Islamics are involved today in at least 20 wars of aggression. From the Sudan to Indonesia to the Philippines to Thailand to the Ivory Coast to Algeria to Nigeria...

(not to mention causing social chaos in Europe)

[Cleombrotus]

Posted by:

Crusader

Does anyone else see the irony?

(The crusaders were the ones who joyously snuffed out lives of innocent victims while hollering “Deus Lo Volt,” by the way)


But an even more egregious irony is a pagan defending Islam in a nominally Christian nation, whereas she would probaly not be accorded such tolerance in most Muslim countries.

[Heathen Dawn]

But an even more egregious irony is a pagan defending Islam in a nominally Christian nation,

I don’t live in a Christian nation, nominal or otherwise.

whereas she would probaly not be accorded such tolerance in most Muslim countries.

Democracy is not the fruit of Christianity, it is the fruit of Greek paganism and Enlightenment Deism. The Christian ideal is that of a theocratic, totalitarian monarchy (read Revelation sometime).

[One Bad Pig]

Democracy is not the fruit of Christianity, it is the fruit of Greek paganism and Enlightenment Deism. The Christian ideal is that of a theocratic, totalitarian monarchy (read Revelation sometime).
The Christian ideal is a theocracy in which the governed are all under the government by choice and sin is no more. If you read Revelation you will realize that this will only occur once those who wish to be a part of it have been perfected and separated from those who do not.

OTOH, the goal of Islam is a world-wide totalitarian theocracy wherein all will submit by choice or force.

As a side note, the USA is not a democracy; it is a republic (likewise not originally a Christian concept, but it functions much better with Christian principles of inter-personal relationships than without).

[Heathen Dawn]

The Christian ideal is a theocracy in which the governed are all under the government by choice and sin is no more.

And all the rest burning in hell for eternity. Some choice. :ahem:

As a side note, the USA is not a democracy; it is a republic

??? Those two terms denote the same thing, just that one is Greek (rule of the people) and the other Roman (the public matter), but both refer to rule of the people by mediation of representatives.

[Snarf]

The Christian ideal is a theocracy in which the governed are all under the government by choice and sin is no more. If you read Revelation you will realize that this will only occur once those who wish to be a part of it have been perfected and separated from those who do not.

OTOH, the goal of Islam is a world-wide totalitarian theocracy wherein all will submit by choice or force.


If say, the US was to be such a theocracy, would it be a dictatorship or an oligarchy? What happens to those who don't want to be under the supreme theocratic ruler (we could name him Falwell I, the Fat)?

[Cleombrotus]

I don’t live in a Christian nation, nominal or otherwise.



Democracy is not the fruit of Christianity, it is the fruit of Greek paganism and Enlightenment Deism. The Christian ideal is that of a theocratic, totalitarian monarchy (read Revelation sometime).



The truth is uncomfortable, isn't it? That's where the red herring comes in so handy.

Your slip is showing, my dear.

[One Bad Pig]

If say, the US was to be such a theocracy, would it be a dictatorship or an oligarchy? What happens to those who don't want to be under the supreme theocratic ruler (we could name him Falwell I, the Fat)?
If we follow the pre-kingdom Israelite model, it would be a dictatorship. Those who don't like it can leave (better that than killing them).

[Cleombrotus]

The Christian ideal is a theocracy in which the governed are all under the government by choice and sin is no more. If you read Revelation you will realize that this will only occur once those who wish to be a part of it have been perfected and separated from those who do not.

OTOH, the goal of Islam is a world-wide totalitarian theocracy wherein all will submit by choice or force.

As a side note, the USA is not a democracy; it is a republic (likewise not originally a Christian concept, but it functions much better with Christian principles of inter-personal relationships than without).



You allowed her to sidetrack you with her political red herring.

You should be holding her accountable for her obviously prejudiced inconsistency in claiming to be a "pagan" (sure she is) and then defending a belief system that is even more hostile to her stated beliefs (if they can be called "beliefs") than the one she so obviously hates. This way she ties you up in debating something that she cares even less about and you never get to her real person.

Deal with what she has against Jesus and forget this political smokescreen.

[Heathen Dawn]

You should be holding her

Him.

accountable for her obviously prejudiced inconsistency in claiming to be a "pagan" (sure she is) and then defending a belief system that is even more hostile to her stated beliefs (if they can be called "beliefs") than the one she so obviously hates.

I’m an equal critic of both Christianity and Islam. The charges of the OP against Muhammad and Islam are 100% correct; but the OP’s delusion that Christianity is free of those blemishes deserves to be busted.

[Cleombrotus]

I’m an equal critic of both Christianity and Islam.


You'll forgive me if I fail to see the equality in your post. Criticism is easy but you could at least be a bit more logically consistent.
You tripped all over your own irony.


The charges of the OP against Muhammad and Islam are 100% correct; but the OP’s delusion that Christianity is free of those blemishes deserves to be busted.


Busted? By whom? Someone who describes himself as a "pagan", uses a pentagram as an avatar and needs to dredge up a centuries-old canard about the Crusades?

Please. Your prejudice is showing.

[Heathen Dawn]

You'll forgive me

No, I won’t. Get lost.

[One Bad Pig]

You allowed her to sidetrack you with her political red herring.

You should be holding her accountable for her obviously prejudiced inconsistency in claiming to be a "pagan" (sure she is) and then defending a belief system that is even more hostile to her stated beliefs (if they can be called "beliefs") than the one she so obviously hates. This way she ties you up in debating something that she cares even less about and you never get to her real person.

Deal with what she has against Jesus and forget this political smokescreen.
:shrug: To be fair, this is the Islam forum.

[InChristAlways]

The Christian ideal is a theocracy in which the governed are all under the government by choice and sin is no more. If you read Revelation you will realize that this will only occur once those who wish to be a part of it have been perfected and separated from those who do not.

OTOH, the goal of Islam is a world-wide totalitarian theocracy wherein all will submit by choice or force.

As a side note, the USA is not a democracy; it is a republic (likewise not originally a Christian concept, but it functions much better with Christian principles of inter-personal relationships than without).Mohammed/Koran is to the muslims as the Pope is to the catholics, and the Talmud is to the jews. You either believe in Jesus or you don't, but every knee will bow to God thru the ages of ages.
After all is said and done, there are only 2 men alive on this earth today, Adam and Jesus according to our dear beloved Paul and Jesus is shown conquering the serpent that deceived him and bringing eternal life to those that believe, His Saints. 1 corin 15:45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man [was] of the earth, [made] of dust; the second Man the Lord from heaven. [i]48 As [was] the [man] of dust, so also [are] those [who are made] of dust; and as [is] the heavenly [Man,] so also [are] those [who are] heavenly. 3 places in the NT where it says "it is finished". One at the cross, onece after the last plague is poured out and once when the New Jerusalem is shown. Revelation is showing the event of the destruction of Jerusalem of course and I am doing a commentary on it here if anyone is interested.
http://newjerusalemministriesboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=82 [b]John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!"(#5055) And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
Revelation 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth." 17 And, the seventh, poured out his bowl upon the air.--And there came forth a loud voice out of the sanctuary, from the throne, saying--It is done!

reve 21:5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." 6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.

[Cleombrotus]

:shrug: To be fair, this is the Islam forum.



Point taken. My apologies.

[Lone Stranger]

Wow, it took me forever to read the post at this thread. Several things come to mind:


1. A symbol is something that stands for something besides itself. If someone tells me that X stands for Jesus, OK, that is the way I will interpret it, and choose not to take up an offense against that person.
2. Yes, the Crusades did contain some embarrasing stuff for Christians, but we have clearly denounced the excesses of the period and tried to separate out the Christian aspects from the carnal ones. Islam doesn't seem to be doing a very good job at that. And the idea that Western median is dominated by Zionist who control the information flow sounds a bit like those conspiracy routines like computer scanners being the mark of the beast, or secret government illimunati personal who control the worlds markets.
If Islam is a peaceful religion, and I really hope/pray that it is, then you guys need to do a much better job of public relations, and scream that terrorist activity is a warpage of your teachings and not the measure of your actual beliefs. And quit wining about the Jews censoring your clarifications.
3. If you are born again, you are my brother. If you are not, the Bible still clearly tells me to honor all man. I apoligize for some of the organic fertilizer that is dripping from the computers of my brothers.
4. Have a nice day!

[InChristAlways]

2. Yes, the Crusades did contain some embarrasing stuff for Christians, but we have clearly denounced the excesses of the period and tried to separate out the Christian aspects from the carnal ones. Islam doesn't seem to be doing a very good job at that. And the idea that Western median is dominated by Zionist who control the information flow sounds a bit like those conspiracy routines like computer scanners being the mark of the beast, or secret government illimunati personal who control the worlds markets.I tend to agree with that to an extent.
What I feel needs to be done is for muslims to delve into the OT prophets more deeply. Both the Talmud and Koran should be discarded just as the endtime books christians read should be discarded[written mainly by zionist dispensationalists I think].
Yes God sent Jesus manifested as Himself to atone for Israel's and Juda's sins, but He also came for the world. As long as muslims seperate themselves as a "chosen" people, then they will be like Israel, who to this day fails to see not only Jesus the messiah coming, but vengeance and Wrath shortly after. Some christians propagate the false delusion that Israel is still God's chosen instead of those that have belief in God's Son as His chosen.
I pray muslim's will study the OT more and eventually the book of revelation as that book is showing the destruction and wrath upon the Jewish nation as prophecied. Just as Israel became God's firstborn nation, they also became His "sacrifice". God bless.

Isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves." 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily. 17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place.

[bhukkadakota]

Doesnt the word christ come from the greek word kristos which means 'annointed one'? How is writing christ as X an insult to Jesus's name?I mean Jesus wasn't born Mr J. Christ and wasnt Moses also annointed making him a christ? Correct me if im wrong.

[InChristAlways]

Doesnt the word christ come from the greek word kristos which means 'annointed one'? How is writing christ as X an insult to Jesus's name?I mean Jesus wasn't born Mr J. Christ and wasnt Moses also annointed making him a christ? Correct me if im wrong.It all depends on the Name. Jesus means the lord is salvation and Christ means annointed. Both kings and preists were annointed in the OT. The only difference in the NT is the annointing is done by the Holy Spirit, not oil. The jews do not understand the Holy Spirit in the OT and I don't knw if the muslims understand it either, otherwise how could God gather all people to Him?ezekiel 37:14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken [it] and performed [it,"] says the LORD.' "
I suppose each language has a word for Jesus, but it is what He represents that is important. God manifested Himself in the flesh, and moses and the prophets also spoke through God and were raised up for that purpose.
In fact most names in the bible have meanings and if you look at the 12 tribes in revelation, the order of them appear to present a type of prayer. The Word of God is salvation, and that Word came through Jesus. Muslims really need to study revelation to understand the bible more fully I believe as God was to appear one time for redemption and again for vengeance, wrath and salvation.

"I will praise the Lord for He has looked on me and granted good fortune. Happy am I because my wrestling God is making me to forget. God hears me and is joined to me and purchased me a dwelling. God will add to me the Son of His right hand."

1 Judah "will praise the Lord" 2. Reuben= "He has looked on me" 3. Gad= "Granted good fortune" 4. Asher= "Happy am I" 5. Naphtali= "My wrestling" 6.Manasseh= "Making me to forget" 7. Simeon= "God hears me" 8. Levi= "Joined to me" 9. Issachar= "Purchased Me"10. Zebulun= "Dwelling" 11. Joseph= "God will add to me" 12. Benjamin= "Son of His right hand"

[bhukkadakota]

Isn't joshua the translation for jesus?

[One Bad Pig]

Isn't joshua the translation for jesus?
Joshua, Hosea, and Jesus are all translated from the same Hebrew name, AFAIK. It is sometimes transliterated "Yeshua".