The Moon and Mohammed

[Krusader]

Of course, apologists for Islam (even those with advanced degrees) will likely be the first to dispute the archeological evidence verifying the worship of the moon in Arabia, and in many primitive societies. Mohammed, the Islamic prophet, grew up surrounded by moon worship. The Ka'ba, which housed some 360 idols, was called the house of allah (probably derived from Arabic for "the" and "god." Allah was associated with the moon, and according to Arabian folk religion, was married to the sun and had daughters associated with the starts.

Al-Kindi, an early Christian apologist against Islam, pointed out that Islam and its god Allah did not come from the Bible, but from the paganism of the Sabeans. Evidently, Allah's association with the moon god was not some modern invention, but was clearly seen by early Christians and Jews who recognized that Allah had nothing to do with the true God of Scripture.

Many moon-god worship related practices are still incorporated into Islam to this very day, including animal sacrifice, throwing rocks at pillars, kissing the meteorite in the Ka'ba, circumambulations, fasting during lunar months, etc. All of these practices associated with Islam find their origin in the astrological religion of pre-Islamic times.

To deny this is to simply be ignorant, blind or a liar.

[Conductor42]

He also grew up influenced by Judaism, and Jews, who in the Arabic language referred to G-d as "All-h"

[Conductor42]

Not to mention that is what Christians have historically called G-d in Arabic.

[Krusader]

You are confusing modern Arabic with ancient languages. Jews referred to their God as Adonai, and never pronounced the tetragrammaton, "YHWH." For Christians, God is the Holy Trinity, not the moon.

[Conductor42]

You are confusing modern Arabic with ancient languages. Jews referred to their God as Adonai,

Being a Jew, I can tell you we also refer to G-d as "HaShem" as well as by other names. But that's in Hebrew. In English, we call G-d by the words "G-d", "L-rd", etc. What did they use in Arabic? Until the current mess in the middle east, about half of Jewry spoke Arabic. Around the time of the rise of Islam, there were many, many Arabic speaking Jews. What word did they use?

and never pronounced the tetragrammaton, "YHWH."

Incorrect. In fact, this used to be a major debate between Rabbinic and Non-Rabbinic Jewry. Some of my Karaite friends have no qualms about pronouncing it at all.

For Christians, God is the Holy Trinity, not the moon.

Oh, now this reminds me of another argument. There were trinities in popular religions around the time of the rise of Christianity. Does this mean that Christianity's holy trinity was stolen from Pagan religions? By your logic, yes.

[Krusader]

Could you explain your form of Judaism to me? Growing up back east, my best friend (in elementary school) was Jewish, and I learned a great deal from her regarding tradition, feasts, etc.

The point I'm trying to make is: did Mohammed take allah (related to astrological worship) and create a monoidolatrous belief system?

Certainly the Jews in Mecca never equated Mohammed's god with their own. A Jew, reading the Quran, will in a very short time realize that he's dealing with a different god, as will a Christian.

As far as the Trinity goes - of course there have been trinitarian concepts in other religions (Hinduism for one). Ever hear of Satanic counterfeits?

[kiwimac]

Crusader,

Quote from peer-reviewed journals please. Title of journal, article title, pagination, date. I would like to see your evidence.

Kiwimac

[Krusader]

So, you're a theologian. What kind of church do you attend or pastor?

I'll get back to you on your question, time to go.

[Jawa Man]

Another thing: religions tend to play war with each other. If Islam is true, it may have taken these customs to show the Pagans, "We own your religious rituals now; you can't even save the sanctity of your own religion!" This does not require a change in theology, just practice of it, and at the same time it smears and dishonors the Pagans. I have no beef with this. Christianity did it. I believe halos are from Paganism, for instance. Also, many philosophical terms used to describe areas of Christianity are from Pagan philosophers. It's just a smear-your-opponent's-religion-and-take-his-honor campaign.

[Conductor42]

Could you explain your form of Judaism to me? Growing up back east, my best friend (in elementary school) was Jewish, and I learned a great deal from her regarding tradition, feasts, etc.

I was formerly a Karaite Jew (see http://www.karaite-korner.org/), but recentely changed my affiliation to Orthodox.

The point I'm trying to make is: did Mohammed take allah (related to astrological worship) and create a monoidolatrous belief system?

Ok. Then let's go from there. If Islam evolved from Astrological worship, is there any remnant of the astrological worship left?

Certainly the Jews in Mecca never equated Mohammed's god with their own. A Jew, reading the Quran, will in a very short time realize that he's dealing with a different god, as will a Christian.

The stance of Judaism is that Jews and Muslims worship the same God, though the latter worships incorrectly.

As far as the Trinity goes - of course there have been trinitarian concepts in other religions (Hinduism for one). Ever hear of Satanic counterfeits?

Yes I have, and that's my point. Even if something was used in a religion that existed prior to Islam, or Christianity, it does not mean it was taken from it.

[Pilgrim]

I'm not sure how productive this conversation is going to be when the thread started posts as his expert witness his elementary school friend who swapped stories with him on the bus and playground before the age of 12. Sort of leads one to believe that the scholarship might be a little lacking on at least one side of the debate eh?

[shunyadragon]

Of course, apologists for Islam (even those with advanced degrees) will likely be the first to dispute the archeological evidence verifying the worship of the moon in Arabia, and in many primitive societies. Mohammed, the Islamic prophet, grew up surrounded by moon worship. The Ka'ba, which housed some 360 idols, was called the house of allah (probably derived from Arabic for "the" and "god." Allah was associated with the moon, and according to Arabian folk religion, was married to the sun and had daughters associated with the starts.

Al-Kindi, an early Christian apologist against Islam, pointed out that Islam and its god Allah did not come from the Bible, but from the paganism of the Sabeans. Evidently, Allah's association with the moon god was not some modern invention, but was clearly seen by early Christians and Jews who recognized that Allah had nothing to do with the true God of Scripture.

Many moon-god worship related practices are still incorporated into Islam to this very day, including animal sacrifice, throwing rocks at pillars, kissing the meteorite in the Ka'ba, circumambulations, fasting during lunar months, etc. All of these practices associated with Islam find their origin in the astrological religion of pre-Islamic times.

To deny this is to simply be ignorant, blind or a liar.
The sun and the moon represented Gods in many Stone Age cultures. Some argue that Judeo/Christian origins, imagery and symbols evolved the same way. The moon is often depicted with Mary in pictures and statues, linking it to an ancient symbol for a Moon Goddess.

Islam forbids worshing idols, statues and celestial bodies. God is not the moon.

[Krusader]

I was formerly a Karaite Jew (see http://www.karaite-korner.org/), but recentely changed my affiliation to Orthodox.



Ok. Then let's go from there. If Islam evolved from Astrological worship, is there any remnant of the astrological worship left?



The stance of Judaism is that Jews and Muslims worship the same God, though the latter worships incorrectly.



Yes I have, and that's my point. Even if something was used in a religion that existed prior to Islam, or Christianity, it does not mean it was taken from it.
Of course there are remnants of paganism left! The entire prilgrimage to Mecca has many pre-Islamic, pagan rituals, including:

1. Cutting of a man's hair
2. Running between the two hills
3. Circumabulation of the Ka'ba and adoration of the meteorite
4. Throwing rocks at pillars (the devil)
5. Culmination of the pilgrimage with animal sacrifices

All of these rituals were related to pre-Islamic paganism.

The Muslim god, allah, has a name that is formed fromt he contraction of "the" and "god." Over the years, this name was transformed to Allah. The Sabeans worshipped the moon under many names, and on the Arabian peninsula, the common usuage was "Sin." The title of this god was "the god," meaning the chief god, later transformed to Allah.

When Mohammed began his religion, he insisted to the Jews that his Allah was none other than YHWH of the Bible. The Jews didn't buy into that.....and for a good reason. First, they understood the relationship of Allah to the pagan moon worship. Second, they could not believe in the distorted stories in Mohammed's Quran, supposedly based on the Old Testament. Third, they knew that God had told Moses that His Personal Name was YHWH - thus, Allah (which is the personal name of God, according to Mohammed and Muslims), could not possibly be the God who spoke to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses. As you know, Mohammed basically had the Jews slaughtered (including your own people, I might add), when they refused to adopt him as a legitimate prophet.

I'm going to post a site folks here can go to if they want to research this matter. There is enough scholarly evidence - including articles from journals and middle-eastern scholars - to satisfy a person needing some type of objective evidence outside of what I am posting.

This site is:

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/islam.htm

However, let me simply quote one source listed, as I believe what the gentleman has to say is important:

"In recent years I have become increasingly convinced that for an adequate understanding of the career of Muhammad and the origins of Islam, great importance must be attached to the existence in Mecca of belief in Allah as a 'high god.' In a sense this is a form of paganism, but it is so different from paganism as commonly understood that it deserves separate treatment." (William Montgomery Watt, Muhammad's Mecca, p. v11. Also see his article, 'Belief in a High God in Pre-Islamic Mecca,' Journal of Semitic Studies, Vol. 16, 1971, pp. 35-40)

I would agree with Dr. Montgomery. Islam evolved from paganism, and the pre-Islamic, and "the high god," became the "only god," - this is not monotheism, but monoidolatry.

Just as the Sun god was elevated to the Supreme and only god of Egypt at one time, so the moon god, allah, was likewise elecvated. However, he is no more the true god, YHWH, then the Sun Disk.

[Conductor42]

1. Cutting of a man's hair

Evidence of pagan origin, please.

2. Running between the two hills

Evidence of pagan origin, please.

3. Circumabulation of the Ka'ba and adoration of the meteorite

Say wha? Circumabulation? What's that?

4. Throwing rocks at pillars (the devil)

Sounds like an absolute rejection of paganism at that one. Since when did fighting "the devil" become pagan?

5. Culmination of the pilgrimage with animal sacrifices

Muslims offere sacrifices? Since when?

And remember, in both of our Religions animal sacrifice plays a part! (For you, that evolved into the sacrifice of a Man/God)


The Muslim god, allah, has a name that is formed fromt he contraction of "the" and "god."

So you're conceding that in those days, the word "All-h" didn't neccessarily refer to any specific G-d?

When Mohammed began his religion, he insisted to the Jews that his Allah was none other than YHWH of the Bible. The Jews didn't buy into that.....and for a good reason.

Sounds like something that happened 2000 years ago.

First, they understood the relationship of Allah to the pagan moon worship.

Is that why we have always translated "Elohi-m" as "All-h"?

Second, they could not believe in the distorted stories in Mohammed's Quran, supposedly based on the Old Testament.

You mean like what happened 2000 years ago? There are comparable incidents in the NT where the Hebrew bible says something happened one way, and the NT says it happened another way.

Third, they knew that God had told Moses that His Personal Name was YHWH - thus, Allah (which is the personal name of God, according to Mohammed and Muslims), could not possibly be the God who spoke to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses.

Ah, but you forget something. "All-h" is the equivalent of "Elohi-m" in Arabic, and is considered one of the names of G-d, as translated into the arabic language. Same goes with translations of "Ad-nai" and other words.

great importance must be attached to the existence in Mecca of belief in Allah as a 'high god.' In a sense this is a form of paganism, but it is so different from paganism as commonly understood that it deserves separate treatment." (William Montgomery Watt, Muhammad's Mecca, p. v11. Also see his article, 'Belief in a High God in Pre-Islamic Mecca,' Journal of Semitic Studies, Vol. 16, 1971, pp. 35-40)

You realize Jews and Christians have also refered to G-d as "the most high G-d"?

[kiwimac]

Yoshiyah,

Tsk, Tsk using logic? What next an appeal to reason? :D

Crusader,

Yes I am a theologian. Theologians do not generally pastor churches however I recently was working as a Peace and Justice Minister for the Community of Christ, currently I am between jobs.

Kiwimac

[Krusader]

Kiwi, when you refer to "Community of Christ," are you referring to the Reorganized LDS Church which recently adopted that name?

[Krusader]

Evidence of pagan origin, please.



Evidence of pagan origin, please.



Say wha? Circumabulation? What's that?



Sounds like an absolute rejection of paganism at that one. Since when did fighting "the devil" become pagan?



Muslims offere sacrifices? Since when?

And remember, in both of our Religions animal sacrifice plays a part! (For you, that evolved into the sacrifice of a Man/God)



So you're conceding that in those days, the word "All-h" didn't neccessarily refer to any specific G-d?



Sounds like something that happened 2000 years ago.



Is that why we have always translated "Elohi-m" as "All-h"?



You mean like what happened 2000 years ago? There are comparable incidents in the NT where the Hebrew bible says something happened one way, and the NT says it happened another way.



Ah, but you forget something. "All-h" is the equivalent of "Elohi-m" in Arabic, and is considered one of the names of G-d, as translated into the arabic language. Same goes with translations of "Ad-nai" and other words.



You realize Jews and Christians have also refered to G-d as "the most high G-d"?
For a orthodox Jew, you certainly like to defend Islam.

Unlike others, apparently, I have a busy office to run. If you want more information on the pagan rituals of Islam, you can find them at:

http://answering-islam.org.uk/BehindVeil/btv14.html

Sorry about the typo, it should have read "circumambulation," which I would have thought a smart guy like you would have figured out.

[Conductor42]

For a orthodox Jew, you certainly like to defend Islam.

What's that supposed to mean? It's not that I'm defending Islam, it's that I prefer honest arguments. In the same sense, I've also defended Christianity (in general), Catholicism, Mormonism, and Buddhism, as others on this forum can attest. Does that make mean I am defending their religion? Certainly not! I am a Counter-Missionary after all, and am one of the top posters at Jews for Judaism.

Unlike others, apparently, I have a busy office to run.

For some, the last few weeks of the semester are the busiest. For me, at least, I have more time than ever before ;)

If you want more information on the pagan rituals of Islam, you can find them at:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/BehindVeil/btv14.html

I started reading the article, but once it said that pilgramages were pagan, i closed the window. Anyone who has read the Torah can see that there are pilgrimmages mentioned there as well. And if the Torah's pagan, then so is Christianity and Judaism.

Sorry about the typo, it should have read "circumambulation," which I would have thought a smart guy like you would have figured out.

I still don't know what it means.

[kiwimac]

Yoshiyah,

Circumambulation is the part of the Hajj which involves walking around the Ka'aba in Mecca. So then circumambulation is the latin word which means to "walk around [something]"

Kiwimac

[Cynic Sage]

Yoshiyah,

Circumambulation is the part of the Hajj which involves walking around the Ka'aba in Mecca. So then circumambulation is the latin word which means to "walk around [something]"

Kiwimac
So walking around in a circle is pagan.

Arabs and Jews have a common ancestor, Abraham, so it would be possible for them to have revered the God of Abraham (although they had strayed to other gods, the way the Jews did, but the Lord was faithful to the Jews and corrected them).

Besides, the whole moon-worship charge is also made against the Jews by Achyra S (http://www.risenjesus.com/articles/index.asp?pagea=acharya-s). And just so you know, I don't think her work holds much water (http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html).

[Cynic Sage]

Oh, now this reminds me of another argument. There were trinities in popular religions around the time of the rise of Christianity. Does this mean that Christianity's holy trinity was stolen from Pagan religions? By your logic, yes.
I guess, but those were "trinities" in the same way that Larry, Moe, and Curly are. (http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.html)

[Conductor42]

Yoshiyah,

Circumambulation is the part of the Hajj which involves walking around the Ka'aba in Mecca. So then circumambulation is the latin word which means to "walk around [something]"

Kiwimac

Ok, so walking around a stone is pagan...?

[Conductor42]

I guess, but those were "trinities" in the same way that Larry, Moe, and Curly are. (http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.html)

Some were, others weren't. It's a topic bigger than this thread.

[kiwimac]

Crusader,

Indeed I am. Why?

Kiwimac

[Krusader]

Crusader,

Indeed I am. Why?

Kiwimac
Kiwi: The Community of Christ still holds to the Book of Mormon, and does not have an orthodox view of the Trinity. For this reason, I would consider them to be a cultic aberration. However, there is some movement to dump the BOM, but I doubt this will happen any time soon.

If you are a Christian, why would you be working with the Josephite branch of Mormonism?

[Krusader]

What's that supposed to mean? It's not that I'm defending Islam, it's that I prefer honest arguments. In the same sense, I've also defended Christianity (in general), Catholicism, Mormonism, and Buddhism, as others on this forum can attest. Does that make mean I am defending their religion? Certainly not! I am a Counter-Missionary after all, and am one of the top posters at Jews for Judaism.



For some, the last few weeks of the semester are the busiest. For me, at least, I have more time than ever before ;)



I started reading the article, but once it said that pilgramages were pagan, i closed the window. Anyone who has read the Torah can see that there are pilgrimmages mentioned there as well. And if the Torah's pagan, then so is Christianity and Judaism.



I still don't know what it means.
I don't really dialogue with Jews regarding Christianity for theological reasons. Since you are part of the counter-missionary movement, I'd assume you wouldn't be open to reasonable discussion regarding the Lord Jesus, in any case.

The Islamic pilgrimage is based on pre-Islamic worship of astrological deities - and even includes a final animal sacrifice - totally out of character, by the way, for the Quran, but much in line with Mohammed's desire to appease the pagans at Mecca.

If you'd like a Christian view of animal sacrifice, why not read the book of Hebrews.

[Cynic Sage]

I don't really dialogue with Jews regarding Christianity for theological reasons. Since you are part of the counter-missionary movement, I'd assume you wouldn't be open to reasonable discussion regarding the Lord Jesus, in any case. That's kind of a really big assumption right off the bat.

The Islamic pilgrimage is based on pre-Islamic worship of astrological deities - and even includes a final animal sacrifice - totally out of character, by the way, for the Quran, but much in line with Mohammed's desire to appease the pagans at Mecca.Can you show evidence of this, and explain how it is based on the worship of Astrological dieties. And why would Muhammad want to appease the Pagans in Mecca, for he viewed Abraham as never having been a polytheist at all wherehas the Judeo-xtian view is that he was a polytheist that left to follow God.

If you'd like a Christian view of animal sacrifice, why not read the book of Hebrews.
Pentateuch's good too.:wink:

[Krusader]

That's kind of a really big assumption right off the bat.

Can you show evidence of this, and explain how it is based on the worship of Astrological dieties. And why would Muhammad want to appease the Pagans in Mecca, for he viewed Abraham as never having been a polytheist at all wherehas the Judeo-xtian view is that he was a polytheist that left to follow God.


Pentateuch's good too.:wink:
See: http://focusonjerusalem.com/hajjpilgrimage.html

The pre-Islamic pagan pilgrimage rites were revamped to fit in with Mohammed's so-called revelations. The acts, however, remain virtually the same.

[kiwimac]

Crusader from the Community of Christ official website:

God

The one eternal, living God is triune: one God in three persons. The God who meets us in the testimony of Israel is the same God who meets us in Jesus Christ, and who indwells creation as the Holy Spirit. God is the Eternal Creator, the source of love, life, and truth. God actively loves and cares for each person. All things that exist owe their being to God who alone is worthy of our worship.

Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ is "God with us," the Son of God, and the living expression of God in the flesh. Jesus Christ lived, was crucified, died, and rose again. The nature, love, and purpose of God are most clearly seen in Jesus Christ, our Savior.

Spirit

The Holy Spirit is the continuing presence of God in the world. The Spirit works in our minds and hearts through intelligence, comfort, guidance, love, and power to sustain, inspire, and remake us.

Perhaps you could point out the non-orthodox portion of this?

Kiwimac

[Krusader]

Crusader from the Community of Christ official website:



Perhaps you could point out the non-orthodox portion of this?

Kiwimac
Gordon Fraser, and other researchers, point to the fact that the Reorganized Mormons hedge on the Personhood of the Holy Spirit. Read their statement of faith carefully - The Holy Spirit is a "presence" not a Person. This is somewhat akin to the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Besides, their continued acceptance of the spurious revelation of Smith's BOM puts them quite far outside the pale of Christianity - by the way, the BOM is modalistic in its Trinitarian view, although the LDS are now polytheistic.

[Krusader]

The sun and the moon represented Gods in many Stone Age cultures. Some argue that Judeo/Christian origins, imagery and symbols evolved the same way. The moon is often depicted with Mary in pictures and statues, linking it to an ancient symbol for a Moon Goddess.

Islam forbids worshing idols, statues and celestial bodies. God is not the moon.
You make a valid point about the use of astrological symbols with Mary. The Roman elevation of Mary to near-deity status is a deviant form of faith.

Please read what I post carefully. While today's Muslims do not believe that Allah is related to the moon-god, historical evidence, based on archeology, provides evidence that Allah was the pre-Islamic moon deity.

Furthermore, Allah supposedly revealed to Mohammed that for him to have a "son" was an abomination. Thus we, as Christians, know that this Allah, whoever he may be, is not our God.

[Sacrificial Ram]

You make a valid point about the use of astrological symbols with Mary. The Roman elevation of Mary to near-deity status is a deviant form of faith.

Please read what I post carefully. While today's Muslims do not believe that Allah is related to the moon-god, historical evidence, based on archeology, provides evidence that Allah was the pre-Islamic moon deity.

Furthermore, Allah supposedly revealed to Mohammed that for him to have a "son" was an abomination. Thus we, as Christians, know that this Allah, whoever he may be, is not our God.
It would be more accurate to say that a moon god was called ALLAH, but then again other gods were called ALLAH at the same time, in addition.

It appears your sources are faulty. Do you have any sources that are not
evangelical christian that are bound and determined to try to discredit other religions?

[Krusader]

It would be more accurate to say that a moon god was called ALLAH, but then again other gods were called ALLAH at the same time, in addition.

It appears your sources are faulty. Do you have any sources that are not
evangelical christian that are bound and determined to try to discredit other religions?
Let's see, my postings are faulty because they are evangelical Christian? Please prove that evangelical researchers are unable to provide archeological evidence of the relationship between Islam's Allah and pre-Islam's Allah.

Go to:

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Shamoun/ishmael-baal.htm

There you will find many secular references.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Let's see, my postings are faulty because they are evangelical Christian? Please prove that evangelical researchers are unable to provide archeological evidence of the relationship between Islam's Allah and pre-Islam's Allah.

Go to:

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Shamoun/ishmael-baal.htm

There you will find many secular references.
Actually, answering islam is an evangelical christian source that is trying to bash Islam. Taking quotes out of context, and usiing the bible is not secular sources.

You are quite incorrect on that.

[Krusader]

Actually, answering islam is an evangelical christian source that is trying to bash Islam. Taking quotes out of context, and usiing the bible is not secular sources.

You are quite incorrect on that.
Prove the quotes were taken out of context, oh wise one. Furthermore, address the secular sources.

[Conductor42]

I don't really dialogue with Jews regarding Christianity for theological reasons. Since you are part of the counter-missionary movement, I'd assume you wouldn't be open to reasonable discussion regarding the Lord Jesus, in any case.

I believe those who know me on this forum will attest that I can and do have reasonable discussions - even with Messianics. Ask DDW, Jeez, or Gaucomole (sp?). I'm sure they'd be glad to vouch for me on this one.

[Pilgrim]

It's easy to prove they are taken out of context because there is no context given. They simply quote a small portion and then go off on it. For it to be in context they would have to quote whole sections rather than engaging in the typical intellectual dishonesty known as "proof texting."

[Conductor42]

That's kind of a really big assumption right off the bat.

While it may be a big assumption, it isn't unfounded. Many "internet" Counter-Missionaries do have a hard time dealing with Christians reasonably, sadly.

[Krusader]

I believe those who know me on this forum will attest that I can and do have reasonable discussions - even with Messianics. Ask DDW, Jeez, or Gaucomole (sp?). I'm sure they'd be glad to vouch for me on this one.
It has nothing to do with you, personally, As you recall, I said for theological reasons. However, if you wish to discuss the Lord Jesus with me, I'll answer any questions you may have. Probably a thread on Islam isn't the proper place for that.

[kiwimac]

Crusader

Obviously you missed this bit in what I posted.

God

The one eternal, living God is triune: one God in three persons. God who meets us in the testimony of Israel is the same God who meets us in Jesus Christ, and who indwells creation as the Holy Spirit. God is the Eternal Creator, the source of love, life, and truth. God actively loves and cares for each person. All things that exist owe their being to God who alone is worthy of our worship

Seems no confusion about the personhood of the Holy Spirit there.

Kiwimac

[Krusader]

Crusader

Obviously you missed this bit in what I posted.



Seems no confusion about the personhood of the Holy Spirit there.

Kiwimac
Kiwi, traditionally the Reorganized LDS Church has had a faulty view of the Godhead, as do the Church of Christ (Bickertonite), Church of Christ (Temple Lot), and other break-away Mormon-based groups. Frankly, I'd have to see their official statement of faith regarding the Godhead before I can fully form an opinion.

Also, the fact that the BOM is seen as a revelation from God through the false prophet, Joseph Smith, would seem to put the Josephites in the category of heterodox. Would you agree?

[kiwimac]

The bit I quoted was from their web-site and consitutes official belief, in so far as a church which has no official creed can be said to have an official belief.

As for JS. Some people see him as a prophet, others as a writer of sacred fiction and others simply ignore him, also part of being a church with no official creed even on JS.

As for the BoM, the proof is in the pudding. Many people who read the BoM lead lives of kindness, compassion and selfless devotion to Jesus Christ, others do not, about par for the course for all Christian groups actually.

Kiwimac

[revivalfire]

I was formerly a Karaite Jew (see http://www.karaite-korner.org/), but recentely changed my affiliation to Orthodox.



Ok. Then let's go from there. If Islam evolved from Astrological worship, is there any remnant of the astrological worship left?



The stance of Judaism is that Jews and Muslims worship the same God, though the latter worships incorrectly.



Yes I have, and that's my point. Even if something was used in a religion that existed prior to Islam, or Christianity, it does not mean it was taken from it.
My friend...if what you say is true...about Judaism believes that Muslims and Jews worship the same God, how come the don't figure away to settle disputes over the temple mount?

[revivalfire]

So walking around in a circle is pagan.

Arabs and Jews have a common ancestor, Abraham, so it would be possible for them to have revered the God of Abraham (although they had strayed to other gods, the way the Jews did, but the Lord was faithful to the Jews and corrected them).

Besides, the whole moon-worship charge is also made against the Jews by Achyra S (http://www.risenjesus.com/articles/index.asp?pagea=acharya-s). And just so you know, I don't think her work holds much water (http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html).
I want to walk around in circles....Yayayayayayayayayayayayayay!!! Now I'm a pagan...!! I'm so happy....my life has been fulfilled...!! I'm sorry but that struck me funny.....hehehehe...LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[revivalfire]

Crusader from the Community of Christ official website:



Perhaps you could point out the non-orthodox portion of this?

Kiwimac
I have a question....actually two...what is your view on the Rapture and the Tribulation and didn't the Bible say in the N.T. that no one was to add anything to the Bible or they would be cursed? I thought it did....maybe I'm wrong...I was also told Joseph Smith was a drunk gold-digger....can you confirm that?

[Sacrificial Ram]

Besides, the whole moon-worship charge is also made against the Jews by Achyra S (http://www.risenjesus.com/articles/index.asp?pagea=acharya-s). And just so you know, I don't think her work holds much water (http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html).
Well, I am an atheist, and I am not impressed with her work either. Some of what she writes might have merit, but she is so biased, and frankly I think blown up out of proportion that I certianly would not use her for a source.

I might look at her claims, and try to find the truth behind her sources, but trust what she says as 'gospel'.. never.

[revivalfire]

You make a valid point about the use of astrological symbols with Mary. The Roman elevation of Mary to near-deity status is a deviant form of faith.

Please read what I post carefully. While today's Muslims do not believe that Allah is related to the moon-god, historical evidence, based on archeology, provides evidence that Allah was the pre-Islamic moon deity.

Furthermore, Allah supposedly revealed to Mohammed that for him to have a "son" was an abomination. Thus we, as Christians, know that this Allah, whoever he may be, is not our God.
Wait, wait, wait....since when is the Roman Catholic Chruch our model for Christianity? I disagree with the deification of Mary...it's sad...really..so please don't lump us all together...thanx...

[kiwimac]

I have a question....actually two...what is your view on the Rapture and the Tribulation and didn't the Bible say in the N.T. that no one was to add anything to the Bible or they would be cursed? I thought it did....maybe I'm wrong...I was also told Joseph Smith was a drunk gold-digger....can you confirm that?

Personally, I consider the rapture to be unsupportable biblically, as far as the Tribulation is concerned I hold the historicist position there. Please note some members othe Community of Christ hold diametrically opposed views to mine.

The command in the NT was to add nothing to the Book of Revelation (echoing an earlier command to add nothing to the Law) not to the NT as a whole. As for JS, well lets see, David was an adulterer, Jacob a thief, Hosea married a prostitute, Jeremiah was dull, dull, dull. God seems to delight in people we would consider hinkey.

Kwiimac

[revivalfire]

Personally, I consider the rapture to be unsupportable biblically, as far as the Tribulation is concerned I hold the historicist position there. Please note some members othe Community of Christ hold diametrically opposed views to mine.

The command in the NT was to add nothing to the Book of Revelation (echoing an earlier command to add nothing to the Law) not to the NT as a whole. As for JS, well lets see, David was an adulterer, Jacob a thief, Hosea married a prostitute, Jeremiah was dull, dull, dull. God seems to delight in people we would consider hinkey.

Kwiimac
Thank you for the information...I truly didn't know... Um...let me see...Jacob a thief..do you mean his brother's blessing? Just wondering...Hosea was commanded to marry her by God to make a point to Israel...and I happen to like Jeremiah!! David...through that Solomon was born.... Then again..I know that you'll say that JS was chosen by God...which I understand... Is there any archeological evidence supporting your form of Mormonism? I was just curious...cuz' I think most of the book of Mormon happened on our side of the earth, right? I was just wondering..hehehe...I get curious easy...

[Krusader]

Thank you for the information...I truly didn't know... Um...let me see...Jacob a thief..do you mean his brother's blessing? Just wondering...Hosea was commanded to marry her by God to make a point to Israel...and I happen to like Jeremiah!! David...through that Solomon was born.... Then again..I know that you'll say that JS was chosen by God...which I understand... Is there any archeological evidence supporting your form of Mormonism? I was just curious...cuz' I think most of the book of Mormon happened on our side of the earth, right? I was just wondering..hehehe...I get curious easy...
There is not a shred of archeological evidence supporting the Mormon story that middle easterners colonized this hemisphere. The Community of Christ, of which Kiwi speaks, is simply the Reorganized Mormon church which does not recognize the fact that Smith was a polygamist (contrary to a great deal of evidence.) They are the progressive wing of Mormonism, but are unwilling to jettison the BOM and other writings of their false prophet.

[revivalfire]

The reason I asked was because Christianity has such things as James' Ossuary....Golgotha....dates in history.....evidence of the flood every where....so on and so forth...some of that may not be archeological but it is still relevant I would think..I have other things to if anyone would like to here what I know...

[Krusader]

The reason I asked was because Christianity has such things as James' Ossuary....Golgotha....dates in history.....evidence of the flood every where....so on and so forth...some of that may not be archeological but it is still relevant I would think..I have other things to if anyone would like to here what I know...
I'd like to know. But, probably this thread isn't the best for that info. Why not start a new thread over on the LDS site?