Armenian Genocide

[D. Medvedev Fan]

Does anyone know aboout the Armenian genocide? It was mostly in the early 1900's.

[Solly]

I first heard about it in a book by D M Thomas, and then I picked up some other stuff along the way. Pretty ghastly stuff, as usual with these things.

[spiritmech]

I'm aware of it, I haven't done much research, but I first heard about it when Bosnia was in the news several years ago. Eastern Europe has had a really rough time of things.

[jar2]

The Armenian Genocide and the Young Turks is one of the more important issues we are still trying to deal with. Like the Kurdish revolts and the promises to the Kurds from various world powers that were later ignored, these issue will continue to be a source of instability and violence.

[Benster]

...just kidding.

It was an ethnic cleansing/genocide campaign against the Armenians, administered by the Turkish government, especially Mehmet Tahlat, who was later gunned down while on the lam in Europe, in a contract killing by an Armenian survivor.

[D. Medvedev Fan]

Pretty ghastly stuff, as usual with these things.
Indeed. The Armenian genocide was like Hitler by hand, smaller scale and not so cleaned up. My mom was looking it up a little online and saw some pretty horrible pictures of what turned out to be my great-grandfather's hometown. Being a slave probably saved his life.

The American government failed to pass a bill that would recognize that it happened most likely to maintain good relations with Turkey where we have a base or something and they don't say much about it. I believe Great Britain also doesn't much acknowledge it even though one of their own ambassadors wrote about it. Govenor Gray Davis did what the United States congress couldn't: he officially recognized that it happened. As Hitler said, "who remembers the Armenians?"

Low estimates for those killed are 600,000. The higher and more likely numbers are about 1.5 million. Not all of those who were killed were directly killed be the Turks. Some were marched out into the Syrian desert where the Kurds might attack and kill them.

My great grandmother from Finland was told to remember the starving Armenians, but not much was actually done to help them. While most countries were still only talking about the Armenians, France actually helped. France saved some 4,000 Armenians from Musa Dagh. The book The Forty Days at Musa Dagh by Franz Werfel is based on that.

Who select a lot on the poll?

[jar2]

I did. I strongly believe that many of the problems we face today are the direct result of the actions that the US, Great Britian and Italy took in relation to the Armenian incidents, the Kurdish Question and the creation of spheres of influence within the remnants of the Ottoman Empire.

I don't think we can understand today without including a knowledge of what those Nations did back then.

If you want to expand on your understanding, do a google on the Kurdish Insurrection and take a look at similar incidents throughout the area. Time after time the world powers encouraged discord for their own purposes, even encouraging revolt only to step aside at the last minute and let the minorities be slaughtered.

And we wonder why the Kurds and other people do not trust us?

[One Bad Pig]

I hadn't heard of it until a couple months ago, when I ran across The Burning Tigris by Peter Balakian. I was utterly shocked that I had never heard of it before. The book impacted me so much that I think it should be required reading for history classes covering the time period.

[keith]

Ermmm. Any attempt to make sense of the political thinking at the time could be interpreted as some kind of apologetics and that is not something I would wish to encourage. I would agree with earlier posts that what happened to the Armenians is connected to later events in the Balkans. The idea of 'ethnic cleansing' is nothing new unfortunately. The one thing these areas have in common, including the Kurdish heartlands, is that they were all formerly territories of the Ottoman Empire. This may sound like some ancient issue but in fact it only fell apart at the end of WW1. Under this empire the idea of the nation state with clearly defined territorial boundaries did not exist. So, when the empire fell apart there were disputes all over the place, as new nations were formed (e.g. Iraq created by the British) or old nations reappeared (e.g. Greece) and those groups which could not lay hold of a piece of turf to claim as their own were left stateless - like in a huge game of musical chairs. Not surprisingly the biggest groups with the best armies got the greatest share. It may help to explain why many of these countries feel uneasy about acknowledging the continued existence of these minority groups.

[One Bad Pig]

The Turks consider themselves to be the remnant of the Ottoman Empire. The Armenians (unlike many other groups in the OE) were not agitating for a separate nation-state for them; they only wanted freedom to live in peace. The Armenians were slaughtered not just because they were non-Muslims and non-Turks, but because they were prospering more than the average Turk in spite of the unfair taxation and restrictions on minorities. It's not that the Turks refuse to acknowledge the existance of an Armenian nation (though they did their best to prevent that when it was formed), but that they refuse to acknowledge that there was a genocide. They pretend that the Armenians were never a part of the OE.

[keith]

The Turks consider themselves to be the remnant of the Ottoman Empire. The Armenians (unlike many other groups in the OE) were not agitating for a separate nation-state for them; they only wanted freedom to live in peace. The Armenians were slaughtered not just because they were non-Muslims and non-Turks, but because they were prospering more than the average Turk in spite of the unfair taxation and restrictions on minorities. It's not that the Turks refuse to acknowledge the existance of an Armenian nation (though they did their best to prevent that when it was formed), but that they refuse to acknowledge that there was a genocide. They pretend that the Armenians were never a part of the OE.
I would agree that the Turks do see themselves as the remnant/successors of the Ottoman Empire - it was Turkish run, Turkish was the official language of government and the Caliph was Turkish. The idea of a separate homeland for Armenians was, as I understand it, first floated by the French and British during World War I. At the time the Ottomans sided with Germany against the allies. After the War the Ottoman Empire was dismantled by the allies and Britain and France carved up the territories between themselves. A lot of the terrible events of the late World War I era make more sense in that context IMHO. There is a modern state of Armenia which is acknowledged by Turkey. However, the territory is much reduced and many of the historic towns and villages around Lake Van for example are now in Eastern Turkey. Perhaps modern Turkey fears some future agitation about its borders if it were to admit to that. I don't know any modern Turks so I hesitate to venture further on that one.

[Solly]

I read an interesting article a few weeks back, about how that policy of dividing up the OE - in much the same way as the Powers divided up Africa - has led us to the position we are in today vis a vis Iraq, Syria, Iran, etc. Boundaries were drawn, taking no account of ethnic groupings, and so on, leading to the kind of impasse we see in Iraq between the Sunni and Shia.
The EU's policy of regionalisation, of dividing Europe up into smaller regions, bypassing the nation states, is an intesting development with regard to this. It should avoid conflict by reducing all powers to a kind of German confederation of states, answerable to Brussels. One wonders how this will work in Turkey, and what the people will think when they find out. It will give the Kurds a chance, for a start...

[klodena19]

hi every one iam so sorry to interrupt your discussion
but iam new to this web
and while iam searching about sth asentence stopped me
"GOD does not exist"
can any one lead me to the forum that discuss this
especially that english is not my mother tongue
sorry again
agirl from the other part of the world:eek:

[D. Medvedev Fan]

The idea of a separate homeland for Armenians was, as I understand it, first floated by the French and British during World War I. At the time the Ottomans sided with Germany against the allies. After the War the Ottoman Empire was dismantled by the allies and Britain and France carved up the territories between themselves.
There was some interest in the U.S. playing a role in what happened to Armenia, but isolationist forces won out.

A lot of the terrible events of the late World War I era make more sense in that context IMHO. There is a modern state of Armenia which is acknowledged by Turkey. However, the territory is much reduced and many of the historic towns and villages around Lake Van for example are now in Eastern Turkey.
I think that my great grandfather’s village was from near Lake Van. Van was the name of the first capital of Armenia long ago.

Perhaps modern Turkey fears some future agitation about its borders if it were to admit to that. I don't know any modern Turks so I hesitate to venture further on that one.
Perhaps in their own boarders, and possibly from outside.

This website might be of interest.
EURASIA INSIGHT

ARMENIAN-TURKISH RECONCILIATION COMMISSION ENCOUNTERS SKEPTICISM
http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/eav091001.shtml

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1074893/posts[/URL]]The German Jewish writer Franz Werfel published his novel "The Forty Days of Musa Dagh" in 1933 and, two years later, Hitler acceded to Turkey's request that the book be banned; the same year, the U.S. State Department, under Turkish pressure, forced MGM to drop its plans to make a movie of the book.

My great grandmother got along just fine with a young Turkish doctor who was in America. I think she invited him over for coffee or something. She explained it to her friends as he did not do that (what happened to the Armenians) to her or something like that. Basically, he wasn’t one of the ones going around causing violence and stuff. He was just a man who just happened to be from Turkey.

My dad knew a man sometime in the late sixties/early seventies whose father was an Armenian living in Turkey. The man’s father had made a fortune three times and the Turkish government took it away three times.

Things like this make it hard for some to get along.

http://www.eraren.org/eng/belgeler_turkconarmresdecla.htm[/URL]]

Turkish Congress on Armenian Research Declaration
20-21 April 2002, Ankara

In the congress where legal aspects of the subject have been taken up as well, it was made clear that the scientific researches conducted so far show that "genocide" cannot be talked about, and every clash in history however great it may be, cannot be called "genocide". Moreover, in the Congress it was determined that the 1915 relocation needs to be evaluated within the context of the historical conditions of the age, by no means fits the legal definition of the 1948 United Nations' Convention, that whether such an act was committed or not can only be determined by competent courts, and that according to the Treaty, the mentioned act can be committed not by institutions and states but rather by individuals. In addition to this, the Congress vehemently condemns the murder of a great number of civilian Turks by armed Armenian groups, and calls not to overlook the Turkish victims.

In spite of the scientific data to the contrary, the use of "genocide" claims against Turkey as a tool of propaganda by some Armenian groups, some circles supporting them and by the government of Armenia in recent years, can only be explained by political reasons.

Extremist Armenian groups' setting forth the recognition of "genocide" claims as a precondition for a dialogue, and their refusal to analyze the issue in relevant organizations that would handle it with all its aspects, allowing both sides to express their views, is far from being scientific and constructive...

All the participants strongly condemned Armenian terrorism that resulted in the murder of innocent Turkish diplomats, other Turkish citizens and citizens of other countries. The Congress calls on all the states of the world to put the Armenian terrorist organizations on their terrorist lists...

My uncle was investigated by the FBI because he is half Armenian. He was going to go to this Turkish cultural event that one had to sign up for, but something came up and he had to cancel. Because of the animosity that still exists among some of the Turks and Armenians, the FBI wanted to make sure that my uncle wasn’t a terrorist. Apparently that is something that some have done with signing up and then canceling. He was both able to speak the language and so clean they offered him a job, not that he accepted it. (It’s sad to see what has happened where the Soviet Union took God out of Armenian life.)

There may be extremist and moderates on both sides. Individuals might get along in some cases. I think that as peoples, they will never fully get along unless there is some recognition of what happened to the Armenians.

[One Bad Pig]

It appears as though some Turks in positions of influence still have the gall to claim mass slayings of Turks by Armenians while denying the opposite. This was done during WW I as well despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.