The Sin of The Whole World:

[seer]

1 John 2:2

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. "


The Calvinist will bring in any gun possible to try and destroy the plain meaning of this text - but the greek will not allow, it stands in full force.


Let me quote Malcolm L. Lavender, Litt.D.


The Meaning of holou tou kosmou (the world as a whole)

1 John 2:2 is a statement of universal Atonement. When the Calvinists cannot escape the evidence that a passage is in fact universal, they attempt to revert to a sense of universality by marking off the whole into parts and call this detachment from the whole the elect scattered among all nations, nationalities, Jews, Gentiles, and the like, as there are some elect persons from all these classes throughout the whole world. Nonsense!

1 John 2:2 reads:

“And He, Himself, is Atonement concerning the sins of us, and not concerning the sins[6] of us only, but (alla) also (kai)[7] concerning the world as a whole (holou tou kosmou).”

The world as a whole translates the force of the predicate position: holou tou kosmou.[8] 1 John also uses this construction in 5:19 where the word order is “. . . ho kosmos holos, i.e., the entire (holos) world lies in the evil one.” Christ died for the world as a whole . . . the entire world [that] lies in the evil one. Accordingly, the Atonement is coextensive with the Fall.

As any objective reader will see John in the same letter uses "ho kosmos holos" the entire world to point that it lies in the evil one. Therefore,clearly, "ho kosmos holos" comprehends the non-elect.

[joelkaki]

I disagree. He was writing primarily to Jews, and was emphasizing the fact that Christ died not just for the sins of Jewish people, but also for the sins of Gentiles.

Joel

[seer]

I disagree. He was writing primarily to Jews, and was emphasizing the fact that Christ died not just for the sins of Jewish people, but also for the sins of Gentiles.

You may disagree Joel, but as Malcolm pointed out the greek is quite conclusive. BTW - what makes you say that John is writing to Jews exclusively? By this late date, most, if not all, the churches were heavily populated by gentiles - the "us" in this passage can only then refer to believers. Not simply jewish believers. Besides it is clear by the way John again uses "the whole world" in 5:19, that he is comprehending the non-elect in that term.

[Theolog]

In the context of all of John’s writings it is clear that the “propitiation” is only applied to those who believe.

Therefore in term of “the whole world” can only mean that Christ’s death was sufficient to pay for the sins of the whole world. This goes along with the reasoning that an infinite life can pay for an infinite amount of sin. Yet in the end the death of Christ only actually pays for the sins of those who believe.

[seer]

In the context of all of John’s writings it is clear that the “propitiation” is only applied to those who believe.

It may only be applied to those who believe, but John is clear that the work of Christ extend to all men.


Therefore in term of “the whole world” can only mean that Christ’s death was sufficient to pay for the sins of the whole world.

Elect and non-elect alike?

[theist]

seer,

Jesus took the sins of the "Whole world", then why isn't the whole world going to heaven? Ofcourse, you will answer, "They don't believe" to which I might say "So, Jesus took their sins but the beliefs finalizes the removal?" How did Jesus not take away sins, did he need the "whole world's permission" to do it?

I will not assert man makes the decision unto salvation, within his natural state. I will also refrain from saying "Jesus died for everysingle person in history", knowing when Jesus said "It is Finished"; He meant just that, their sins would not be counted against them.

Isaiah 53:11 ".... My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities." (NASB)
Isa 53:12 "... yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors. "

1 Tim. 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-- of whom I am the worst. (NIV)

Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. (NIV)

Matthew 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (NIV)

seer, i prefer the rendering of "atonment"(NIV) as "propitiation"(NAS and KJV), where God attributes his righteousness to the person and the person's wrath to Jesus. WIth that in mind, is everyone inputed righteousness, no, because not all men have faith. So, does God impute righteousness to every single person in hsitory? Nope, according to most arminians, God needs that persons' permission (they neglect the natural state of man).

Gill's Commentary:
"but also for the sins of the whole world"; the Syriac version renders it, "not for us only, but also for the whole world"; that is, not for the Jews only, for John was a Jew, and so were those he wrote unto, but for the Gentiles also. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles [hebrew word], "the world"; and [greek], "the whole world"; and [hebrew word], "the nations of the world" (l); See Gill on John 12:19; and the word "world" is so used in Scripture; see Joh_3:16; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that [hebrew world], "there is no propitiation for them" (m): and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say (n),

"it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, [hebrew world], "the whole world" went after him;''

which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere (o) it is said,

"amle ylwk, "the "whole world" has left the Misna, and gone after the "Gemara";''

which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place (p),

"amle ylwk, "the whole world" fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;''

where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said (q), when

"R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), [hebrew word], "the whole world" stood up before him;''

that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added (r),

"when a great man makes a mourning, [hebrew word], "the whole world" come to honour him;''

i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, [hebrew word], "the whole world" is not divided, or does not dissent (s); [hebrew word], "the whole world" are of opinion (t), are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed; yea, sometimes the phrase, "all the men of the world" (u), only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, "all the world", or "the whole world", in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Luk_2:1; and so it is in this epistle, 1Jo_5:19; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world; and the like distinction is in this text itself, for "the sins of the whole world" are opposed to "our sins", the sins of the apostle and others to whom he joins himself; who therefore belonged not to, nor were a part of the whole world, for whose sins Christ is a propitiation as for theirs: so that this passage cannot furnish out any argument for universal redemption; for besides these things, it may be further observed, that for whose sins Christ is a propitiation, their sins are atoned for and pardoned, and their persons justified from all sin, and so shall certainly be glorified, which is not true of the whole world, and every man and woman in it; moreover, Christ is a propitiation through faith in his blood, the benefit of his propitiatory sacrifice is only received and enjoyed through faith; so that in the event it appears that Christ is a propitiation only for believers, a character which does not agree with all mankind; add to this, that for whom Christ is a propitiation he is also an advocate, 1Jo_2:1; but he is not an advocate for every individual person in the world; yea, there is a world he will not pray for Joh_17:9, and consequently is not a propitiation for them. Once more, the design of the apostle in these words is to comfort his "little children" with the advocacy and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, who might fall into sin through weakness and inadvertency; but what comfort would it yield to a distressed mind, to be told that Christ was a propitiation not only for the sins of the apostles and other saints, but for the sins of every individual in the world, even of these that are in hell? Would it not be natural for persons in such circumstances to argue rather against, than for themselves, and conclude that seeing persons might be damned notwithstanding the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, that this might, and would be their case. In what sense Christ is a propitiation; see Gill on Rom_3:25. The Jews have no notion of the Messiah as a propitiation or atonement; sometimes they say (w) repentance atones for all sin; sometimes the death of the righteous (x); sometimes incense (y); sometimes the priests' garments (z); sometimes it is the day of atonement (a); and indeed they are in the utmost puzzle about atonement; and they even confess in their prayers (b), that they have now neither altar nor priest to atone for them;

in HIS grip,

rustyb

[seer]

Theist, again you post false assumptions. Were is your evidence that the "us" that John is speaking of includes only Jewish converts? And we have proved by 1 Jn. 5:19 that "the whole world" naturally includes the non-elect.



Jesus took the sins of the "Whole world", then why isn't the whole world going to heaven? Ofcourse, you will answer, "They don't believe" to which I might say "So, Jesus took their sins but the beliefs finalizes the removal?" How did Jesus not take away sins, did he need the "whole world's permission" to do it?

The indivdual certainly must believe to have Christ's work applied to him. That goes for all men - even Calvinists. When you were still ungodly and in unbelief Christ's work did NOTHING for you - you were still under God's wrath.

[Theolog]

Today @ 08:36 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=93491#post93491)
seer:



It may only be applied to those who believe, but John is clear that the work of Christ extend to all men.



Elect and non-elect alike?

If all mens sins are paid for why do all men still die?

[seer]

If all mens sins are paid for why do all men still die?

If believers sins are paid for (and I assume you believe that) why do we still die?

[theist]

seer,

If I go pay the whole town's debts, then are their debts forgiven on monday? Or, do I pay the debts then ask them to believe I did so that I can actually pay for them? If so, in what way did i pay for all of their debts? Is their debts being paid actually dependant on them? Meaning, in effect, I couldn't have paid for their debts unless they believe I did.

Jesus paid in full, "It is done"; That day, he took away sins. By doing so, God looked away. If Jesus didn't actually take the sin upon himself, then it's possible he could have died and nobody come to him - thus, his death was in vain. I see more than a "method of salvation"; I see a literal removal of sins. He done this for his people, they are the ones when God judges, finds no sins to their account; Instead, he sees the righteousness.

in HIS grip,

rustyb