Does Jesus have the ability to save everyone, can he really do it?

[mickiel]

Is the belief that Jesus can save everyone a valid belief, or just another deception blowing in the winds of doctrine? Oh because if this is true, think of the level of deception in this world that would have to be true also. If this is true, how could so many misunderstand something so glorious, is their any reality to Jesus ability to save an entire world? Does Jesus have that kind of power, is it his intent to use it if he has it?In John 1:3, Jesus is the actual creator of ALL things, which would effectivly make Christ the God of the old testement, the God in Genisis creation, and the I AM of the old covenant. Jesus is the actual creator of the "cosmos", and of mankind, under Gods direction of course. This is shown again in Col. 1:16, Jesus created everything "in heaven and on earth", so he created all the spirit beings also. Obiviously, the great Jesus is very powerful, it should be no doubt there. But is he capable of saving all of the men he created, or does he even want to save them for that matter?

Jesus is pre-eminent to everything he made, and he is responsible for these things. That responsibility includes every single person he has created, what is Christ going to do with all these humans? Is it the survival of the "fittest", will only the best of us survive, or those of us who are the most righteous? Jesus ability is in question here, what kind of work did he intend to do concerning his creation of mankind?

In Col.1:20, it is call a reconciling work. Notice in verse 19, God was pleased to put all the fullness in Christ, so Christ is complettely equiped to do what God wants him to do. Verse 20 is plain, Jesus intends to reconcile ALL THINGS TO HIMSELF. Right here Jesus personally claims responsibility for everything he has created. He in fact is so serious about this committment, he gave his life for it. Jesus has been equipped to reconcile all of mankind to himself. This is what he meant when he said if i be lifted up ( John 12:32) or if i give my life on the cross, i will draw all men to myself. He means he has the ability to reconcile ( or forgive and bring into unity with God) EVERY SINGLE PERSON HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR.

But now wait a minute, this IS NOT WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT, bu good greif, its right here in scripture. But now that means all the no good people who ever lived will be forgiven-- thats not fair! But thats what 1 Tim. 2:6 means, he gave up his life for everybody, even the bad evil people. Well whats the use of living right if hes going to save everybody, why not just sin and live it up? Paul address that in Rom. 6:1 I really just cannot explain the grace of God. God knows all these people are sinning, and hes going to forgive them anyway, it makes no sense at all. But read Romans 11:32, its very plain . God, not men themselves, God has shut up all in disobedience, why- for what reason, so he can show them ALL MERCY. It doesn't seem to make much sense, but thats just how God is, he wants to show all of manking mercy.

And he has instilled this trait into Jesus, they want to do it. They want to forgive the whole world.In 1 Tim. 4:10 he is called the savior of all men, in luke 2:10 this good news is for all people, in 1 John 4:14 he is called the savior of the world, Luke 9:56 he did not come to earth to detroy us but to save all of us, in Matt. 1:21 he will save his people from their sins- who is his people, just the christians or believers, no no no!- John 17:2, God gave him all of us, their not planning on leaving anyone out. God has not willed or predestined, any to perish. I'm telling you , its unreal, but they are going to do it, Jesus is actually planning to take away all the sins of the whole world, its just mind boggleling, i don't blame peope for not beliving it, its unbelievable! Read John 1:29, Jesus not only has the ability to remove all sin(which means all sin committed in the past, present and future), he WANTS TO DO IT!

Here again is the ability- Romans 5:18 and 1 John 2:2. Look at 1 John 2:2, he is the propitiation for our sins, our being believers or meaning the believers n him,but notice he does not stop there, NOT OURS ONLY BUT THE WHOLE WORLD! Glory to God in the highest, praise the Lamb forever more, they really love us all. Salvation is going to be given to everybody, read Heb. 10:10, Jesus did ONCE FOR ALL PEOPLE, NOT JUST BELIEVERS, God is not patrial, neither is salvation just for jews. Its for everybody, every sinner on a cross. Jesus loves us, hes not trying to harm us or scare us into some hell fire.Love does not harm, Rom. 13:10, hell is harm. n 1 Corinth 15:22 in Adam we are all doomed, no chance whatsoever, in Christ that SAME ALL will be given eternal life. It just doesn't get any plainer than this, we all make it because of Christ. We can't earn salvation, we don't have to, salvation is free BUT IT DIDNOT COME CHEAP. Our Lord had to die, and mankind dare teaches that there are some of us his blood will not cover. Jesus has the ability to save everyone, and he will use it.

[seer]

Yes mickiel, I am slowly coming to that belief myself.

[mickiel]

Today @ 11:06 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=94093#post94093)
seer:

Yes mickiel, I am slowly coming to that belief myself.

The gospel is mysterious, unheard of, the deciples were killed for it. Jesus ws not killed because he was a bad person, he was a good man, they killed him because he procaimed that he was going to save the whole world. The so called christians then, or the spiritual leaders of that time, of course believed that he could do no such thing, as do the present leaders of modern day christianity. It was outrageous for them to hear this, they believed in hell and Judism, or limited atonement, thinking God selected only a few for salvation.

I remember meeting you on another board Seer, i see in you the potential to break free from traditional thought, i must warn you, you will be misunderstood for believing in this way. You will be hated and labeled a heritic, as were those before you. The whole world has beed deceived, their picture of Jesus distorted. As you fight Seer, you cannot fight the invasion of truth into your own mind. The acceptance of universal salvation is a total committment, it cannot be otherwise. It will totally eclipse your views, and you will be alone in this world. I'm telling you from experience. I now know what the early christians went through.

This gospel is only a witness Seer, it will not convert, as others believe their gospel does. Only God can open one to this truth, but the glory of it all, is he will open each and every man in their order or time of reception, none are destined to be deserted. I cannot explain why he opens one now, others later, believe me it has absolutely nothing to do with personal righteousness or inntellect. You cannot even begin this wisdom on your own. Its just not possible. As you enter your calling, you must understand its total committment, God is interested in the total rehabilitation of mankind. Search the scriptures as his Spirit opens you to this, you will begin to see salvation everywhere in the bible,as you will also begin to see that others CANNOT see it but in a few. There is no room for doubt in this belief, that is a barrier to the entrance of truth. My prayers to you brother, i was criticized for calling you brother on the other board, i just think your about to be plucked out of darkness. I say this as a personal message meant for you, hoping no offense on others. May you fare well in your journey.

[doogieduff]

Numbers 15:32-36
32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day.
33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation.
34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
35 Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp."
36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

He was saved eh?

[themuzicman]

"Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved" Rom 10:13

Jesus told Nicodemus that he had to be born again, that he was already born of water, but needed to be born of the spirit.

"For by grace you have been saved [b]through faith[b]..." Eph 2:8

Your question is odd, because Jesus has already done the work of making salvation available to all men. He also continues the work of drawing all men.

However, as Romans 10:13 points out, only those who call up on the name of the Lord will be saved. The NT is replete with doctrine that extols the need for faith through which we receive grace and salvation.


You also tried to make the point that Jesus is responsible for what He created. I see no scriptural basis for that statement. The fact that God gave us a free will to choose Him or choose sin shifts the responsibility for our actions and our decisions to us.

God, in His infinite love, chose to make a way for us to be redeemed from the curse of the law and the wages of sin. God didn't do this out of obligation or responsibility, but out of mercy and grace.

Michael

[mickiel]

Today @ 04:08 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=94238#post94238)
themuzicman:

"Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved" Rom 10:13

So if i do not call on God, you think i am not worthy to be saved? John 3:16 talks about believers, or those who call on Gods name, John 3:17, talks about the world being saved, or those who do not call on God.



Jesus told Nicodemus that he had to be born again, that he was already born of water, but needed to be born of the spirit.

You can try to list requirements for salvation all you want, it still is free, and will be given reguardless of what humans DO.That is the meaning of grace, it is undeserved salvation.

"For by grace you have been saved [b]through faith[b]..." Eph 2:8

Your question is odd, because Jesus has already done the work of making salvation available to all men. He also continues the work of drawing all men.

However, as Romans 10:13 points out, only those who call up on the name of the Lord will be saved. The NT is replete with doctrine that extols the need for faith through which we receive grace and salvation.

If you need to call on God to be saved, that is a cost and salvation is not free, that means the price of salvation is verbal committment. That is false interpitation, salvation is free, not a verbal committment.

You also tried to make the point that Jesus is responsible for what He created. I see no scriptural basis for that statement. The fact that God gave us a free will to choose Him or choose sin shifts the responsibility for our actions and our decisions to us.

You are blind, plain and simple. You think salvation is based on the decision ability of mankind, that is deception. Salvation is purely Christ plus nothing. Free will is an illusion, Gods will is all that matters, we are saved by Gods will, not our own.


God, in His infinite love, chose to make a way for us to be redeemed from the curse of the law and the wages of sin. God didn't do this out of obligation or responsibility, but out of mercy and grace.

Michael

[mandolin]

Ok... I'm the first to say...at least you make more sense than the calvinists :teeth:

But...I think that the universalist portion of your teachings is highly presumptuous.

Ok... who is being judged at the great white throne??? because they are cast into the lake of fire alongside the evil beings (antichrist, beast, Lucifer, demons, etc.). It does say that in the lake of fire...(beings) will be tormented forever and ever. So it doesn't follow that this torment is only temporary. The rest of the book makes it quite clear that there are many who would not be found in the book of life. How does this fit in with your scripture. I think that teachings found in Jesus revelation to John drastically hinder the possibility of universalism. ( these rebuttals are not only in revelation..but it is an example) Elsewhere (like galations for example) it is taught that people living in sinful lifestyles will not inherit the kingdom of God. How can these fundamental biblical teachings fit in with your universalism??

Granted...I don't know a whole lot about universalism, so I'd be happy to learn...but I don't see the biblical possibility of such assumptions that ALL men will be saved being true.

Also...at least your not preaching the heresy of reprobation. But still, I think it is highly unstable (biblically) to assert such radical universalist assumptions.

Please give me some feedback...I'd be stoked to learn more about what you think. (though at this time..i can safely say I do not agree) (i seem to agree with muzicmans theory much more)

[mickiel]

Today @ 02:46 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=94859#post94859)
mandolin:

Ok... I'm the first to say...at least you make more sense than the calvinists :teeth:

But...I think that the universalist portion of your teachings is highly presumptuous.

Ok... who is being judged at the great white throne??? because they are cast into the lake of fire alongside the evil beings (antichrist, beast, Lucifer, demons, etc.). It does say that in the lake of fire...(beings) will be tormented forever and ever. So it doesn't follow that this torment is only temporary. The rest of the book makes it quite clear that there are many who would not be found in the book of life. How does this fit in with your scripture.

Humans are being judged at the great white throne, and most other judgement moments as well. Yes humans will be put into the fire, but the bible does not teach that humans will be tormented forever. Even the beings placed in the fire , i doubt that they are actual personages, but symbolic gestures-- for example, look at Rev. 20:11-15, obiviously refering to the great white throne. Vs 14, death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire. Death and hades ARE NOT beings, these are symbolism. This event is called the second death, the second death Mandolin, is the death of the first death. There will be no more death, and therefore no need for graves. I think vs. 15 is symbolic, there will be no names NOT found in the book of life. Still, i admit to not totally understanding Revelations. Also i might add, that i think the lake of fire is more than just a furnance to burn, it is part of Gods judgement, and Gods judgement always purifys. I think it highly possible for those few humans who are placed in the fire, will come out with no sin, the sin in them will burn and they will hurt, but i think they will be born again after the lake experience. I do not believe salvation is only before death, i believe Jesus can save after a person is dead, and even after they are in the lake of fire, Jesus is the Lord of the living and the dead and able to save in either world, hes done it before and will again. Look at 1 Corinth. 5:5, a person is actually given to satan, for satan to consume him in sin and destroy him. But notice the person spirit can still be saved IN THE DAY OF THE LORD- which is after the great white throne judgement. Also notice 1 Corinth. 3:15, in my view this verse describes the above belief i have. This human is thrown into the lake of fire, he shall suffer loss-- but he himself shall be saved, but his evil works, or sins , will be burned up. Notice verse 13, same chapt; Each mans work will become evident, because IT IS REVEALED BY FIRE, THE FIRE ITSELF WILL TEST THE MANS WORK. This shows another purpose of the lake of fire , and this purpose IS NOT TAUGHT, because it is largely unknown. The lake of fire has a definite theraputic value, it finds sin, it destroys sin, a person CAN COME OUT OF IT ALIVE, and it definitely does hurt, as the wailing and teeth knashing shows. People are just afraid of Gods judgement, but his judgement is a thing to desire, not fear, it will always improve the person.




I think that teachings found in Jesus revelation to John drastically hinder the possibility of universalism. ( these rebuttals are not only in revelation..but it is an example) Elsewhere (like galations for example) it is taught that people living in sinful lifestyles will not inherit the kingdom of God. How can these fundamental biblical teachings fit in with your universalism??

I believe that to mean that they will NOT enter the HOLY CITY, but can live outside of it. The Holy City is the heart and core of the kingdom of God BY LOCATION, i believe that when the bible says that people will not inherit the kingdom, it is speaking of the inner walls of the Holy City itself, or the location of Gods personal throne. The bible says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but my goodness, we are all flesh and blood, does that mean none of us will inherit it, of course not, again it is speaking of the location of the flesh, some humans will be on the earth, but they will not be allowed within the holy city. This will be during this period much of you refer to as the millenium


Granted...I don't know a whole lot about universalism, so I'd be happy to learn...but I don't see the biblical possibility of such assumptions that ALL men will be saved being true.

I understand you, but i myself do see it. In Isaiah 45:22-25, God is making a HOLY VOW TO HIMSELF. This is a very sacred moment, God is actually swearing BY his own self, nothing could be more holy that this. Whatever he is about to say, WILL COME TO BE. Read his vow, vs.22-turn to me and be saved all the earth, - 23- he has sworn by himself, he has already spoken the vow in his righteousness, and he will not take it back, meaning it cannot return to him void or incomplette, that to him EVERY KNEE will bow, EVERY tounge WILL SWEAR ALLEGIANCE, 25-- ALL the offspring of Isreal will be saved, this my freind is the total rehabilitation of mankind. Now i see universalism in this verse, others do not. I accept that God made this vow and will not break it. Job 23:13 also intrest me, it says the same thing, God is unique, nothing can turn him away from his desires. What he desires, that he does. 1 Tim. 2:4 clearly shows what God desires, he desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, i see universal salvation in that. I tend to personally favor Romans 11:32, God has shut up all in disobedience, so that he might show mercy to all, i see universal salvation in that verse. I don't want to make a long list of scriptures, there are too many to list, the point is sin is what condemns us, Jesus is the propitiation for christians sin, but not just christians, but the sins of the whole world, that means the sinners and unbelievers. This is also a verse in the bible, i am not making this up-1 John 2:2 i see salvation for all in that verse also.

Rom. 5:18, 1 Tim. 2:6, Luke 9:56, John 1:29, Luke 2:10, 1 Tim. 4:10, Matt. 1:21, Phil. 2:10, there are over 100 verses in the bible that show universal salvation, i am not a fool, nor am i a stupid idiot that cannot read. These verses are there for all to see, but people simplt cannot see them. Their minds are convinced on tradition, more than plain eyesight.


Also...at least your not preaching the heresy of reprobation. But still, I think it is highly unstable (biblically) to assert such radical universalist assumptions.

Its really strange that some people consider the desire that all be saved as heresy,. its as if they want most people to be condemned. If you want to see more verses, i would be glad to show you them.



Please give me some feedback...I'd be stoked to learn more about what you think. (though at this time..i can safely say I do not agree) (i seem to agree with muzicmans theory much more)

[themuzicman]

You are blind, plain and simple. You think salvation is based on the decision ability of mankind, that is deception. Salvation is purely Christ plus nothing. Free will is an illusion, Gods will is all that matters, we are saved by Gods will, not our own.


First of all, namecalling is one of the most begrudging admissions of defeat, and draws no converts. If anything, this kind of action makes it plain that you are insecure in your belief.

Second, I never said that salvation depended on the ability of man. I acknowledged that Jesus did the work, and draws all men. However, I also acknowledged SCRIPTURE, which says that we must accept the gift of salvation through faith, which God offers to us.

If you have something to refute Romans 10:13, please present it, instead of namecalling.

Michael

[mickiel]

Today @ 01:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=95123#post95123)
themuzicman:



First of all, namecalling is one of the most begrudging admissions of defeat, and draws no converts. If anything, this kind of action makes it plain that you are insecure in your belief.

Second, I never said that salvation depended on the ability of man. I acknowledged that Jesus did the work, and draws all men. However, I also acknowledged SCRIPTURE, which says that we must accept the gift of salvation through faith, which God offers to us.

If you have something to refute Romans 10:13, please present it, instead of namecalling.

Forgive my namecalling, your point is well taken. John 3:16, are those who call on God, 3:17 are those who do not, they still can be saved. Rom. 3:3, are those who do not call on God, still they are saved. Psalms 100:5 shows Gods call is greater than those who do not call on him, as does 119:90. Rom. 2:4, shows God leads humans to repent, not the effort of the human or their calling on him, as does John 6:44, no calling of Gods name is a requirement to him drawing the human. God moves first and is not a respector of personages, he is unpartial in HIS calling, the human calling on him is not a requirement. Paul didnot call on Gods name, God called him. The deciples did not call on God he called them. God loved us first. John 6:70, Jesus does the calling of names first. John 15:16 is very clear in this, it is a clear refute.




Michael

[themuzicman]

Today @ 08:35 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=95134#post95134)
mickiel:
John 3:16, are those who call on God, 3:17 are those who do not, they still can be saved. Rom. 3:3, are those who do not call on God, still they are saved. Psalms 100:5 shows Gods call is greater than those who do not call on him, as does 119:90. Rom. 2:4, shows God leads humans to repent, not the effort of the human or their calling on him, as does John 6:44, no calling of Gods name is a requirement to him drawing the human. God moves first and is not a respector of personages, he is unpartial in HIS calling, the human calling on him is not a requirement. Paul didnot call on Gods name, God called him. The deciples did not call on God he called them. God loved us first. John 6:70, Jesus does the calling of names first. John 15:16 is very clear in this, it is a clear refute.



Key word in John 3:17: "Might", meaning that the possibility exists.

As for Romans 3, you missed the three 'C's of hermanutics: Context, Context, Context. The context of Romans 3 is Jews who follow the law, and ultimately the inability of the law to save. Has nothing to do with salvation.

Again, Psalm 100 is not about salvation. Same with Psalms 199:90.

Again, if you read the context Romans 2:4, you find that the unrepentant are storing up wrath for the day of judgement. Definately NOT universalist.

While it is true that God must draw us to salvation, we must repond in acceptance, as detailed in Romans 10:13. Thus, John 6:44 can only be understood as drawing men towards salvation, not forcing it upon them. You'll note that while God draws, we must come to Him.

John 6:70 is a statement of fact, not doctrine. Jesus called all 12 disciples. The point that he was making was that he chose Judas Iscariot, too.

As for John 15:16, Jesus chose them, but the disciples STILL had to choose to follow, and this doesn't speak of salvation, but of their ministry.

You need to be much more careful in the selection of your proof texts, because the context of those verses has to be understood clearly.

Furthermore, you need to deal with verses that DO speak about salvation, such as Romans 10:13, which require that we respond to God's call, and accept the gift in faith.

Michael

[mandolin]

***Rom. 5:18, 1 Tim. 2:6, Luke 9:56, John 1:29, Luke 2:10, 1 Tim. 4:10, Matt. 1:21, Phil. 2:10, there are over 100 verses in the bible that show universal salvation, i am not a fool, nor am i a stupid idiot that cannot read. These verses are there for all to see, but people simplt cannot see them. Their minds are convinced on tradition, more than plain eyesight.***

Yes... i know the verses. Do they convey universalism?? Possibly. But this would be contradictory to other statements clearly shown throughout Paul writings.

Your interpretations of stuff like the galations 5 verse canm make sense...but i think it is highly based on your universalist hypothesis. The eternality of the lake of fire IS mentioned in the bible...and there is no reason to say otherwise. (Rev. 20:12)

If you read through revelation...it is obvious that many people are guilty of sinful lifestyles..and their names are not found in this book of life. They are then cast into the lake of fire. The eternal lake of fire.

I totally agree with your universal salvation...but I think it's highly presumtuous to think that this atonement doesn't have to be accepted by the individual.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't want to live in ignorace...so i'd really appreciate learning more about your universalist thoughts. But as of now...I stand behind the thoughts of muzicman 100%.

The existance of the lake of fire is without question...the eternality of the lake of fire is without question...and honestly, the people who get cast there (the people not in the book...found guilty at the great white throne) seem to be without question. So how does universlism work?? IT seems like one should interpret Isaiah 45 using the rest of the scriptures instead of vice-versa.

[mickiel]

Today @ 02:34 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=95163#post95163)
themuzicman:



Key word in John 3:17: "Might", meaning that the possibility exists.

As for Romans 3, you missed the three 'C's of hermanutics: Context, Context, Context. The context of Romans 3 is Jews who follow the law, and ultimately the inability of the law to save. Has nothing to do with salvation.

Again, Psalm 100 is not about salvation. Same with Psalms 199:90.

Again, if you read the context Romans 2:4, you find that the unrepentant are storing up wrath for the day of judgement. Definately NOT universalist.

While it is true that God must draw us to salvation, we must repond in acceptance, as detailed in Romans 10:13. Thus, John 6:44 can only be understood as drawing men towards salvation, not forcing it upon them. You'll note that while God draws, we must come to Him.

John 6:70 is a statement of fact, not doctrine. Jesus called all 12 disciples. The point that he was making was that he chose Judas Iscariot, too.

As for John 15:16, Jesus chose them, but the disciples STILL had to choose to follow, and this doesn't speak of salvation, but of their ministry.

You need to be much more careful in the selection of your proof texts, because the context of those verses has to be understood clearly.

Furthermore, you need to deal with verses that DO speak about salvation, such as Romans 10:13, which require that we respond to God's call, and accept the gift in faith.

Michael

Our eyes see scripture in a totally different light. You think salvation is in the choice of mankind, you believe even if God calls the human, they must respond or he will not accept them. This is basically free will doctrine. I believe God opens the human to his call and they have no choice but to do his will. In fact, use ANY of the prophets, apostles, decipiles, in the old or new testement as an example, NONE of them were given the "option" to reject Gods calling, but you seem to think they were. I maintain they, nor anyonelse, have a choice in salvation, it is given by God, and he will give it to all. Give me just ONE example of someone in the bible rejecting Gods calling, and God accepting their rejection -just ONE example that supports this belief you have of man being in charge of his salvation, and i will conceed the arguement. The bible may well say choose you this day, but rejection of Gods calling is never allowed, and never will be. Free will is an illousion. God will save people even if they do not want to be saved. I have scripture showing this, but as i have mentioned, you don't understand them in the manner that i do. Our minds are different, they are being framed by different sources. Salvation is based on what Christ has done, not on what humans will do. Salvation, or eternal life is far too seriously important for God to construct it in a manner that would leave it up to humans, far too many of them would not make the right choice, far too many could not live up to the righteous standard of Christ. God is not willing for any to perish, and neither am i. I do not see anywhere in the bible where God will is not accomplished.

[mickiel]

I am simply exchangeing views with you. I already know all will be saved, or the predestined will of God will be accomplished. Therefore i am not subject to the pressure that mainstream christianity is subject to, they think God and satan are engaged in a battle for the souls of mankind, therefore they must convert as much of the world as they can. If i viewed salvation and scripture as THEY do, then they have failed, God has failed, Christ has failed to be the savior of the world,because satan has won the war hands down. Besides, most christians are not really interested in saving people, they are mostly content that ther own necks are saved, they could careless about others, i see how they treat sinners every day. They have a survival of the fittest mentality, and they think God is like that.

As i begin to see the real God, my view of salvation is based on him, his characther, his will. He planned salvation before he even made mankind, the plan was already pre determined, he would not predestine people to be lost. I have given my life , based it on this belief, i have already shared in your belief most of my life, i find it now to be utterly insufficent, but i do not find Gods plan of salvation to be innsufficent, only mans view OF it. The God i now begin to see is explained in Galations 5:22-25. These verses, known as the fruit of the Spirit Mandolin, are actually a percise description of how God really is in his nature. The verses are really describing God himself. Read them, and see the real God, this is how he really is.

God is love, he is full of joy, he is a peaceful being, very patient, very kind, he is a good being and he is faithful, he keeps all of his promises. God is very gentle, self controled, and he has not spoken any laws to restrict his own nature, these ways of his HAVE NO LIMIT, he is extreme in each one of these attritrbutes. This kind of being is not capable of co-existing with sin and misery forever. God brought evil into existence for a reason, when that reason is accomplished, it will be NO MORE. The doctrine of eternal torture is evil in nature, it is pure misery, God simply would not do such a thing. I will never again accept that nonsense about our great God. In Revelation 22:3, the bible is wrapping up the story of salvation, it says there shall no longer be any curse, that puts out hell fire right there. Misery will not exist forever, men simply do not know God, or how he is. People actually believe that God would create billions of humans, then leave salvation up to them, thats like bringing a pregnancy to nine months, and leaveing the baby to fend for himself, deliver himself. Isaiah 66:9, speaks differently to me of Gods nature. People see in the bible their own view of salvation and God. They see exactly what THEY want to happen. God is not willing, or he has NOT WILLED any to perish, but if he left salvation up to the will of mankind, he may as well passed doom on most of his children, we do not have enough sense on our own to see God our Father. The whole head of man is sick, his whole heart faint. God knows this, and he is just to good to loose any of his children. He does not see salvation as we do, i am so thankful for him.

[themuzicman]

I see that you have your mind made up, in spite of scripture.

In that case, I wish you well.

Michael

[johnnybanano]

05-13-2003 @ 11:03 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=95542#post95542)
mickiel:

God brought evil into existence for a reason, when that reason is accomplished, it will be NO MORE.

What do you believe is the purpose of evil?

I also have a couple other questions that I have yet to receive solid consideration for. I am very interested in what your opinion is.

Will Satan also find salvation?

What is your interpretation of the eternal sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Love and Respect

[mickiel]

Today @ 03:40 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=97332#post97332)
johnnybanano:



What do you believe is the purpose of evil?

I believe the purpose of evil is to have us be "like God", knowing good and evil. Genesis 3:5, 22. If we are to be the sons of God, we must then be as he is. God is good, But God has been the only source of anything that exist, their has never been any other gods. I think when God decided to have children, he wanted the plan of salvation to have an alter ego, or another choice, another way of life so to speak. It seems he wanted to use this "other way", or evil, in his creation and development of man. The purpose of evil then is to actually help in what God is creating within mankind, and whatever this is, it results in being like God.





I also have a couple other questions that I have yet to receive solid consideration for. I am very interested in what your opinion is.

Will Satan also find salvation?

I have several opinions on satan finding salvation. If satan was once the being in Ezek. 28, then yes i believe God will restore him. The being in Ezk.28, was annointed by God, sinless and sealed. Nothing can break a seal of God, but God himself. If God "drafted" this being, he will restore him. I do not accept that evil created itself, which is evolution, somehow got pass God and jumped into this being. So if satan is this being, it is not his fault that God either didnot protect him, or that God broke his seal of perfection.

If satan was created evil from the "beginning", it still is not his fault he was created evil. If satan is not a real being that is meant to live forever, but if God created him only to temporary exist to represent evil in the plan of salvation, then yes i believe under that senerio, god will destroy him. Judgeing the nature of God, it is not possible for God to be unfair or unjust.




What is your interpretation of the eternal sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
That sin is plainly said to not be forgiven in this life or the next to come, these stages are refered to as eons, or temporary stages of life, time periods that have been measured out. Although the sin is not forgiven in two periods, i believe it will be released in another yet to come. I do not see unforgiveness co-existing with God. Again it falls to understanding the nature of God. God will not co-exist with unforgiveness, eventually he will forgive. The nature of God is greater than our sight of scripture. No sin is eternal, only goodness is eternal, therefore belief in eternal suffering is complette deception.
Love and Respect

[djdavo]

*sees calvinist debate. runs away!* :help: