ARTICLE: Deity of Christ: Case Closed

[STR Ambassador]

Understanding the Trinity may be impossible, but proving the Trinity is not especially difficult. You don't need to master theology and philosophy. All you need is one irrefutable argument. Here it is.

Deity of Christ: Case Closed

by Greg Koukl

Understanding the Trinity may be impossible, but proving that the Trinity is scriptural is not an especially difficult task. One needs only to define the Trinity accurately, then show that the Bible teaches the details of the definition. It makes no difference whether the word "Trinity" appears in the text or not. It only matters if the doctrine is taught there.

The definition of the Trinity is straightforward: there is only one God and He subsists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. One God in three persons. Simple.

How to Prove the Trinity

If you want to prove the Trinity, then, all you need to do is show that three specific truths are taught in Scripture. First, there's only one God. Second, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are truly distinct persons. Third, each has the essential attribute of deity. That's it.

The first item--the oneness of God--is virtually uncontested by those challenging the Trinity on Scriptural grounds. Almost all who hold Scripture in high regard acknowledge the famous Shema of Deuteronomy 6:1, ""Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! "

The second, that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are truly distinct persons, is denied by modalists like Oneness Pentecostals. They hold there is one God who manifests Himself in different "modes" at different times, sometimes as the Father and sometimes as the Son. The popular illustration of the Trinity that a man can be a father to his son yet, in other modes, a husband to his wife and a brother to his siblings is a fine illustration of this second-century heresy, and not the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. In this view the Father and the Son are both fully God, but there is no genuine distinction between the persons, only a linguistic distinction.

The third, that the distinct persons are each fully God, is denied by Arians like Jehovah's Witnesses. Jesus and the Father are distinct persons, they say, but do not share the essential attribute of deity. Only the Father is God. Jesus is a lesser, created "god."

The Irrefutable Argument

My purpose is to answer the Arian challenge by giving an airtight, scriptural proof for the deity of Jesus Christ. This technique is so simple you should be able to sketch it out on a napkin from memory the next time someone knocks on your door.

Remember, you don't have to master every counter-argument to every verse thrown at you. All you need is one unequivocal textual proof to make your case. Here it is. It comes from the Gospel of John.

Most discussions of this nature focus initially on John 1:1. It says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." That's the way your Bible reads. But the Jehovah's Witness's New World Translation renders the verse this way: "In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."

The heated discussion that follows is almost never productive. Don't waste your time wrestling with Greek grammar neither of you understand. Just drop down two verses. Verse three says, "All things came into being by Him [the Word], and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." The NWT is virtually the same: All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."

Have your visitor read the verse out loud. Then take out a napkin or a piece of scratch paper and draw a large box. Explaining that this box represents everything that exists. Run a line right through the middle of the box, dividing everything that exists into two categories. It will look something like this:

Everything That Exists










On the left side write "all things that never came into being," that is, all things that exist but have never been created. Ask your friend, "What goes in that box?" If he says "God" he got the right answer. God is the only thing that exists that has never been created. God alone is eternal and uncreated. Put the word "God" in the left-hand side of your box.

Label the right side "all things that came into being," that is, all created things. Write "all created things" there. Everything in this box was created through Jesus, according to verse three. Ask your friend if he understands that. Now write "created through Jesus" outside the box and run an arrow to the right side. Your box should now look something like this:


Everything That Exists


All things that never came All things that have come
into being....... into being......



GOD ALL CREATED THINGS



All these were created through Jesus (Jn 1:3)

Take a moment to point out to your guest how this illustration is structured. The larger box includes everything there is, was or ever will be. Each particular existent falls into one of two categories: created or not created.

According to the law of excluded middle either a thing was created or it wasn't created--there is no third option--so the categories are all-encompassing. According to the law of non-contradiction a thing can't be both created and not created, so the categories are mutually exclusive. Any particular thing has to be one or the other. It's very simple.

Next you're going to determine what category Jesus belongs in. Take a coin out of your pocket. Tell your guest this coin represents Jesus Christ. Hand him the coin and ask him to place Jesus in the category where He belongs.

The first impulse of a Jehovah's Witness, of course, is to place Jesus in the category of "all things that came into being" because that's what their theology dictates. In keeping with the teaching of Arius in the early fourth century, there was a time "when the Word was not." Jesus was the first created being and everything else was created by Jehovah through Jesus.

But John 1:3 doesn't allow that option. Look at the wording carefully. John says, "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being," or in the NWT,"...and apart from him not even one thing came into existence" (emphasis mine).

John says the same thing two different ways for emphasis and clarity: everything that ever came into being owes its existence to Jesus, who caused it all to happen. If Jesus caused all created things to come into existence, then He must have existed before all created things came into existence. Therefore, the Word could not have been created.

In other words, if Jesus created everything that has come into being, and Jesus also came into being (as they contend), then Jesus created Himself. He would have to exist as Creator before He existed as a created thing, which is absurd. Therefore, Jesus can't be placed in the square labeled, "all things that came into being."

Just a side note. Much is made of the Greek word dia, translated "by" in the first phrase, but can also be translated "through." But it makes no difference whether all things were created "by" Jesus or "through" Jesus with Jehovah as the agency (as the Witnesses suggest). The point is that in either case Jesus is existing before the creation of all things that ever came into being.

So, the coin can't be placed on the right. At this point your visitor may want to place Jesus somewhere on the paper outside the larger box. But, as we've seen, you can't do that. These categories are all-encompassing and mutually exclusive; there's no "place" outside to put Him. Everything goes on one side of the larger box or the other.

If Jesus can't be placed on the right side with created things, then He must go on the left with uncreated things, identifying Jesus as the uncreated Creator. Jesus is God.

Two Rejoinders

I have only come across two rejoinders to this proof for Jesus' deity. Each is so weak it merely serves to bolster our argument.

The first goes something like this. "Wait a minute, Greg. You didn't read the verse carefully. You missed something in the text. Notice the phrase 'apart from Him.' The apostle excludes Jesus from the count in this verse. If you said, 'Apart from Billy, the whole family is going to Disneyland' you wouldn't mean that Billy wasn't part of the family, just that he wasn't included in the count. Every member of the family is going to Disneyland with the exception of Billy. In the same way, every created thing was created by Jesus with the exception of Jesus Himself. Jehovah created Jesus first, then Jesus created everything else."

Note that this rebuttal turns on the ability to replace "apart from Him" with the phrase "excluding Jesus." Allegedly they're synonymous. OK, let's try the replacement and see what happens. The verse then looks like this: "With the exception of Jesus, nothing came into being that has come into being."

If your brow is furrowed trying to figure this out, I'm not surprised. The reconstructed phrase is nearly nonsense. Strictly speaking, it means that Jesus is the only created thing that exists. Read it again and see for yourself. Obviously, the phrase "apart from Jesus" can't mean "with the exception of Jesus." These phrases are not synonymous.

"Apart from Him" means something entirely different. It means "apart from His agency." It's the same as saying, "Apart from me you'll never get to San Diego. I've got the car." Apart from Jesus' agency nothing came into being that has come into being. Why? Because Jesus is the Creator. He is God. That makes perfect sense in the context.

The second attempt at refutation comes from a handful of more sophisticated Arians who know better than to lean on the bent reed of the first rejoinder. They go back to the opening phrase "In the beginning" and note that it is anarthrous, that is, it has no article in the original Greek. Since John merely writes "In beginning" he could be meaning "in a beginning."

Jehovah created Jesus, the story goes, at some indeterminate time in the past. Then after some unspecified second beginning ("a beginning"), He created everything else through Jesus. The details of verse three apply only to what happens after this second beginning. That's the argument.

This grasping-at-the-wind is an example of what I call "Bedtime Story." Here the detractor tells a story to put your argument to rest, but like all mere stories there is no foundation in fact. Nothing in the details of the text itself suggests this alternate translation. In fact, even the NWT renders it accurately.

Further, it strains at a gnat and swallows a camel. A focus on the gnat in verse one misses the camel two verses later. The phrases "all things" and "nothing" in verse three admit of no time restrictions. The only alternate "facts" available are found in the wishful thinking of those whose theology demands another reading. It's clear from the text that Jesus is God.

Parrying the Counter-Attack

Objections that Jesus is distinguished from the Father in other passages (as when He prays to the Father in John 17) merely bolster our defense of the Trinity. Agreed, Jesus is not the Father. Jesus can talk to the Father because each is a separate person, but as Creator, Jesus shares the same divine essence as the Father. Remember our definition: there is only one God and He subsists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Obviously, then we'd expect to find evidence of personal interaction among each of them.

Remember, don't let your guest play "What About?" and drag you all over the New Testament. Keep bringing the issue back to John 1:3. All other verses must be understood in light of the unmistakable fact that Jesus is the uncreated Creator.

One parting thought. This exercise also resolves the translation controversy of verse one. Is the Word fully God or merely "a god"? John's teaching in verse three makes unmistakable the intent of his opening remark: "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

And that settles it.


This technique is so simple you should be able to sketch it out on a napkin from memory the next time someone knocks on your door.

Don't waste your time wrestling with Greek grammar neither of you understand.

If Jesus caused all created things to come into existence, then He must have existed before all created things came into existence.

Remember, don't let your guest play "What About?" and drag you all over the New Testament. Keep bringing the issue back to the unmistakable fact that Jesus is the uncreated Creator.


Stand to Reason - Training Christian ambassadors in the areas of knowledge, wisdom, and character - www.str.org

[dizzle]

Very useful - thank you!

[ajohnson]

I've used this several times. It is very effective.

Unfortunatly, the cultist I've used this on never address the issue, or the Scripture, except to say - 'but begotten must mean sired'. And then there is always the "Well, what about........"

But I love using this.

Regards,

Alan

[Vivian]

Hello Greg,

In previous years, I have heard you speak and was drawn to the logic that you applied in seeking to understand God's Truth. Since that time, my beliefs have been discarded and replaced with an experiential knowing and it is from this place that I offer the following for your consideration.

Just as the Jews of Jesus’ time had become lost in the traditions of men and the distortions in the interpretation of their scripture, so has modern day Christianity. The issue is not word placement, or the translation of this word or that, but the cloud of distortion that accompanies the present day Bible.

The problem began in the days of Constantine when a dogma that was inducive to political control was forced upon the then followers of Jesus. Those who did not adhere to the voted upon dogma were exterminated.

I personally would not hold to any interpretation that was construed by a religion that set out to kill those in disagreement and would suggest to anyone wanting their understanding of scripture to be founded on logic and reason to look closely at the actions of the “church” in years of Constantine and immediately after.

Jesus said his disciples would be persecuted, so I would consider it most likely that those being persecuted were more in line with Truth than those doing the persecution.

May I use your argument regarding the deity of Jesus as an example?

Jesus refers to himself as both the son of man and the son of God.

Have you considered that Jesus, as a son of man is a created being, just as we are, but the consciousness that was manifested within Him was the Son of God, the Christ, and it is that consciousness that was One with the Father?

God is Spirit, not flesh. God begets Spirit not flesh. God the Father beget Christ. Jesus was born of Mary’s body. Jesus was flesh although the consciousness within him was Spirit.

First there was One – the Absolute All, then there were two – The Masculine Father God and the Feminine Mother Holy Spirit, and from Their interaction was born the only begotten Son – The Christ or Divine Love. And so there were then Three, the Holy Trinity. Out of Christ came the many - or all that was created - and that many dwells in the many mansions of God’s Kingdom.

God’s Kingdom is Spirit, not flesh or of the physical world.

Instead of boxes it looks like a spiral. The outer ring of the spiral is the outer darkness, where we dwell. The spiral descends into the Infinite that is The Father – God and everything in between are the many mansions that were created through Christ.

Our consciousness is the prodigal son that dwells here in the outer darkness. Christ came through the person of Jesus to show us the Way back to our Father’s House. Our minds are lost, veiled, by the Luciferic consciousness and have lost the Way.

When John spoke of the Word, he was speaking of the vibrational Essence of the Father that was begotten in Christ. And when he says that the Word was made flesh he was referring to Christ being incarnated into the being of Jesus.

In the state of Oneness that Jesus refers to in John 17, there is no individual identity, so that when a being who is One says “I” he is referring to the unity of his consciousness/spirit with the Father God Consciousness.

There are several stories in the Old Testament of Divine Messengers who spoke of God in first person just as Jesus did.

The personality/body that clothed Jesus was not Divine, it was the son of man and the same that clothes us. What was different was the consciousness that dwelled within His fleshly vehicle. Jesus’ was able to break through the veils and exist as both One with the Father and as an individual on this plane at the same time. And after ascending to the Father, he was able to manifest a physical body according to his will while still maintaining Unity in Consciousness.

If we allow no man to teach us but the One Teacher, Master - the Christ, we will find that contained within the Bible are Universal Truths for all of humanity. Through distortion that began with the modern day Catholic church these Universal Truths has been turned into dogmas used to cause wars and separation among humanity.

It is the same with all Holy Scripture that has been revealed to humanity. Once the Messenger dies, the interpretation of the Scripture is contaminated and distorted. Jesus prophesied that there would be a falling away from His Teachings.

This great apostasy is upon us.



vivian

[Ormly]

What I read from you Vivian is truth and error. The overlapping of it makes it difficult to say I agree. I believe you see something I can amen but you go far into the mystical realm that gives me pause and say: "though a mystery, it's not that difficult".

Try this in your thinking: Assuming you to be "born again", place yourself as the baby Jesus in the manger having two natures. Compare your two natures with His two natures. What do you come up with?

[Jaltus]

The problem began in the days of Constantine when a dogma that was inducive to political control was forced upon the then followers of Jesus. Those who did not adhere to the voted upon dogma were exterminated.

I personally would not hold to any interpretation that was construed by a religion that set out to kill those in disagreement and would suggest to anyone wanting their understanding of scripture to be founded on logic and reason to look closely at the actions of the “church” in years of Constantine and immediately after.

The problem is that this has little to no basis in fact. Constantine was at the Council of Nicea, and some will argue that there were a lot of politics involved. However, what happened after the council is what is telling. After about 98 out of 100 bishops voted that Jesus was divine and that this was the teaching of the historical church, the council split up. Shortly after, Arians began getting positions of authority in the church despite the fact that their beliefs were considered heretical. After Constantine died, the next emperor outlawed those who held to Jesus as divine. Thus, Athanasius had to run for his life for the next 20 years or so, off and on, being formally exiled 7 times from his bishopric.

"Athanasius against the world" became a standard phrase in later church history (Athanasius contra mundi) because of how he alone fought for the divinity of Jesus for many decades. In the end, after persecution and hardship, Athanasius won over the church to his position, with later church councils echoing the verdict of Nicea, but this time actually enforcing it.

[TrevorL]

Howdy "STR Representative",

Greetings. I am not sure if you are quoting Greg's article, but assuming you are the author, howdy Greg. I could possibly agree that the "Case" is "Closed" with respect to your discussions with the JWs, but they could have other suggestions. What is common to your article and the JW position is that in John 1:1 you both equate "The Word" with Jesus. I assume that you read John 1:1 as follows:
"In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God."
But the record actually says:
John 1:1(KJV): "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

My understanding of this is that "the Word" is a personification of the qualities of God. The Greek word is "Logos" and speaks not only of the spoken word, but also the wisdom and intelligence behind the spoken word. This is used to show not only that all of God's promises and revealed word is concentred in the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus, and is thus sourced in God the Father, but also the transfer of these qualities to Jesus when he was born and fully developed when he was revealed to the world.
John 1:14 (KJV): "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
This reveals the time and process where God's plan is implemented in the birth of Jesus. The connecting thought with John 1:1 is the moral character, the moral glory and this is derived because Jesus was the only begotten of the Father. Jesus is the Son of God. This begettal and the holy character that resulted from this is stated in:
Luke 1:34-35 (KJV): "34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

There is a similar personification of the "Word of Life":
1 John 1:1-2 (KJV): "1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)"

Wisdom is also personified as a virtuous woman and the thoughts of John 1 appear to be partly based upon Proverbs 8:
Proverbs 8:1-6 (KJV): "1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice? 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. 4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. 6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things."
Proverbs 8:22-30 (KJV): "22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;"
This is beautiful poetical language that teaches that God was the creator, and "wisdom" was his companion, he used "wisdom" and "understanding" in all that he created.

There is also a semi-personification in the following, and this gives a clear testimony that the "Word" proceeds from the mouth of God, and because all that God thinks and says is wise and is powerful, then God's word will be fulfilled.
Isaiah 55:8-11 (KJV): "8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

Kind regards
Trevor

[Vivian]

What I read from you Vivian is truth and error. The overlapping of it makes it difficult to say I agree. I believe you see something I can amen but you go far into the mystical realm that gives me pause and say: "though a mystery, it's not that difficult".

Try this in your thinking: Assuming you to be "born again", place yourself as the baby Jesus in the manger having two natures. Compare your two natures with His two natures. What do you come up with?

Marvelous, Ormly! You have turned my mind to innocence!

The Truth is simple, but it is difficult for the human mind to grasp because of the programming placed upon it by the religious, economical, and social environment it was born into. Like you are suggesting, we must become a baby, empty of all that we thought we knew, before we can see the simplicity of the Absolute Truth. Even at this moment, I am becoming a baby so I can see something new in this analogy you have offered for discussion.

In the manger Jesus was flesh and blood just as you or me. Whether you accept that his birth was virgin or not, he was still of human flesh. As a son of man, he was at birth no different than any other son of man.

However the consciousness or breath of life that was placed in Jesus' earthly vehicle was not the same as yours or mine. His was of an advanced soul who came here to lay down his life for his brothers. He came to show us the Way, to do "what all men must do", to make both natures one, so that Christ could manifest on earth.

Because of his advanced soul state, he was able to break the veils on his consciousness and enter into a state of remembrance There are those who feel he remembered from birth. We do know that he was in a state of remembrance at age 12 when he was in teaching in the temple.

Remembrance is an awakening such as the one experienced by the prodigal son. When he awakened he began to have memories of his father's house realizing that his present surroundings were in reality a swine pit. Some spiritual traditions refer to it as Enlightenment or Liberation or Deliverance, some believing in the ONLY begotten Son, for historically we have chosen to no longer serve self but to serve - in selfless consecration - Christ in all.

Although at birth Jesus' son of man nature was the same as yours or mine, it was not the same at maturity. Jesus succeeded in making the two natures one.




vivian

[HRG_new]

Picking one bible verse as proof text for A (and ignoring all others which are proof texts for non-A) is a well-known apologetic technique. It is of course based on the ad hoc assumption that the Bible is consistent.

[Ormly]

Although at birth Jesus' son of man nature was the same as yours or mine, it was not the same at maturity. Jesus succeeded in making the two natures one.

vivian


When He said "it is finished" is when it was accomplished -- not before then. It is the same with us.

More on this later from me :)

[Vivian]

vivian: "The problem began in the days of Constantine when a dogma that was inducive to political control was forced upon the then followers of Jesus. Those who did not adhere to the voted upon dogma were exterminated."


The problem is that this has little to no basis in fact. Constantine was at the Council of Nicea, and some will argue that there were a lot of politics involved. However, what happened after the council is what is telling. After about 98 out of 100 bishops voted that Jesus was divine and that this was the teaching of the historical church, the council split up. Shortly after, Arians began getting positions of authority in the church despite the fact that their beliefs were considered heretical. After Constantine died, the next emperor outlawed those who held to Jesus as divine. Thus, Athanasius had to run for his life for the next 20 years or so, off and on, being formally exiled 7 times from his bishopric.

"Athanasius against the world" became a standard phrase in later church history (Athanasius contra mundi) because of how he alone fought for the divinity of Jesus for many decades. In the end, after persecution and hardship, Athanasius won over the church to his position, with later church councils echoing the verdict of Nicea, but this time actually enforcing it.


Hello Jaltus,

You are right to question that remark, for it is misleading. It would have been more accurate to state that the rule of Constantine and the Council of Nicaea are historical turning points where the Gospel brought into the world by Jesus began to be used by those in power for self serving purposes.

While Constantine is not directly responsible for the exterminations of accused heretics and heathens following his rule, he is responsible for driving in the stake, so to speak, so that it became potically correct to twist Truth for self serving reasons. Constantine's use of the Gospel to extend his own power and influence is well documented. And following his rule, this tendency grew, leading to the massacre of millions throughout the last 1700 years.

This same scenerio continues today, where the meaning of the words of Jesus are twisted and sometimes outright ignored to justify self seeking actions that are proclaimed to be in the name of the Lord.



vivian

[Vivian]

When He said "it is finished" is when it was accomplished -- not before then. It is the same with us.

More on this later from me :)


Please share more!

Waiting not so patiently....


...vivian

[Ormly]

Please share more!

Waiting not so patiently....


...vivian
Ok -- Sorry I'm late getting back to this. Look for my reply tomorrow.:smile: :smile:

[Ormly]

When He said "it is finished" is when it was accomplished -- not before then. It is the same with us.Hebrews 4:15 (GW)

We have a chief priest who is able to sympathize with our weaknesses. He was tempted in every way that we are, but he didn't sin.

To explain my position I find that asking questions is the way to do to keep me from rambling on. So let me ask this one: Many of the reform church believe that when Jesus was on Earth He was God and could not sin. Yet we see He was tempted to sin.

James 1:13 (GW)

When someone is tempted, he shouldn't say that God is tempting him. God can't be tempted by evil, and God doesn't tempt anyone.

Jesus was tempted by evil. This points up the "Son of man" part of Him that was put to the test by the Father. This is the same procedure as God took with Adam. Adam failed which interrupted God’s original plan for having created man in the first place.

After creating Adam and Eve God had few words stay other than be fruitful and multiply. It is with further study that we are given more information as to why. God wants a vast family of son’s and daughters of human, flesh and bone, origin that He can put His Divine life into and who would, by that divine life, rule and reign with Him in the universe [s] throughout all eternity. His goal has never changed. It was only interrupted. This is the reason Jesus had to be a totally human man with a totally sinless nature. He had to be tested the same way Adam was. Notice now how Adam was alone when He was tested inasmuch as there was no divinity in him. He was to be tested purely as a human; no help from the outside or indwelling of any Spirit of God to aid him. He failed. Jesus was tested in like manner. Aside from their humanity both had one other thing in common, -- faith. Adam’s failed him because it was from himself which was no match for Satan. The faith Jesus had was of God; not of Himself. To sustain that "God given faith" was His responsibility while on Earth. Had to protect His sinlessness; the Son of God within Him. Had He succumbed to human temptation would have marked the end of all humanity; all of the Fathers plan for a human family with His Son as the head. Satan would have defeated the God of the universe and all the Angels of heaven who would have switched allegiance to Satan. All the righteous in the grave of Paradise would be given over to eternal torment. There would be no heaven to enter into and no righteousness that dwelled in it.

So we can see where Jesus did win the battle for humanity. Now what did it do for Him as Son of God except give Him a new [fully human] Body in which to dwell. Up to that point in eternity Jesus never had glorified Body. He had only an incarnate body that couldn’t be shared with humanity. It was not of human origin. He now has a Body of human origin by virtue of the fact He can down from heaven, He condescended, and proved Himself as a human intended as God purposed for Adam and thus all of humanity. Jesus, the man, became our link to the divine. The "Water and the Blood" at Calvary. "It is finished" He said.

When we are born again He literally enters us and what He possessed, in His Earthly life with all its temptations, we possess. The question now becomes can God really trust us with His glory, to handle it as Jesus handled it? Indeed, that is the thing we must prove we can do. [see Jn 17] This is our hour of temptation, of learning the Father, that will prove our metal, our "son-ship". Jesus was 33 yrs old before beginning His ministry. 33 yrs of submission and obedience to authority.

He is our role model for life as God purposes for those who love Him as Jesus loved Him. "It is finished".

[Vivian]

Ormly: When He said "it is finished" is when it was accomplished -- not before then. It is the same with us.


Hi ormly,

This comment has profound verities contained within, but i do not see them followed through in your elucidation.

Excuse me for being blunt, but it feels as though you are onto an expansion of understanding, but are being held back by clinging to the biblical indoctrination that you have been subject to.

Remember that in Isaiah it is prophesied that his sheep will be feeding from trampled pastures.

God has clean pastures for you to feed from.

If we may go back...

...when is it the same with us as it was for Jesus? When is it finished?


vivian

[Ormly]

Ormly: When He said "it is finished" is when it was accomplished -- not before then. It is the same with us.


Hi ormly,

This comment has profound verities contained within, but i do not see them followed through in your elucidation.Simply put we are given what is required to become son's of God as Jesus was. You might say: "we can't be as Jesus was" to wit I would respond: "that is the goal for our lives regardless of progress made". He had a sinless human life to protect to make possible the means for us to overcome our sinful ones. He defeated Satan on our behalf leaving us as Adam was before he transgressed; able to enter again into the presence of God and God into us. This time if we sin we have an advocate who pleads our case. Adam had no such advocate and mankind had to wait 4000 yrs for Him to come.


Excuse me for being blunt, but it feels as though you are onto an expansion of understanding, but are being held back by clinging to the biblical indoctrination that you have been subject to.
My Biblical indoctrination is because of the born again experience, the Bible and the baptism of Jesus Christ with the Holy Ghost. I'll glady subject myself to that combination. Anything less won't accomplish the task of understanding Jesus Christ, God's grace and His purpose for creating man.---- nor will one overcome "self".


Remember that in Isaiah it is prophesied that his sheep will be feeding from trampled pastures.
You'll have to explain that one to me.

God has clean pastures for you to feed from.Indeed He does. It's called the "sheep fold". He is the door to it.

If we may go back...

...when is it the same with us as it was for Jesus?He had his wilderness experience that typifies our whole life. He overcame Satan in His life, we must overcome our "self" by making choices that God can bless. We must learn to live BY the faith OF Jesus Christ who dwells within us and who possessed the mind of His Father. The works that are produced will have the stamp of God on them and will prove our faith to be in Him and of Him.

He who overcomes....self " [Rev]
"If any man follow me let him deny him --self...." ---- his own disposition in matters.

When is it finished?

vivianWhen we are transfigured as He was an the mount Transfiguration. With us it will be when He comes to fetch us out of this world. That will be our mount Transfiguration.

Keep in mind: He's coming for "players", not "cheerleaders".:smile:

[Vivian]

Simply put we are given what is required to become son's of God as Jesus was. You might say: "we can't be as Jesus was" to wit I would respond: "that is the goal for our lives regardless of progress made". He had a sinless human life to protect to make possible the means for us to overcome our sinful ones. He defeated Satan on our behalf leaving us as Adam was before he transgressed; able to enter again into the presence of God and God into us. This time if we sin we have an advocate who pleads our case. Adam had no such advocate and mankind had to wait 4000 yrs for Him to come.

Hello again ormly,

The other day a friend said something along the lines of 'asking us to be like Jesus is like asking an amputee to run a race!'

More on that below.

Jesus' defeat of Satan had implications in the Spiritual realms that few are aware of, but in doing so a door was opened that had been closed with the imprisonment of humanity by the Luciferic forces in creation.


My Biblical indoctrination is because of the born again experience, the Bible and the baptism of Jesus Christ with the Holy Ghost. I'll glady subject myself to that combination. Anything less won't accomplish the task of understanding Jesus Christ, God's grace and His purpose for creating man.---- nor will one overcome "self".


Understanding Christ as well as God's purpose for creating man is essential if one is be receptive of the His workings within to overcome self. Mankind has lost his understanding of what this self is and out of ignorance clings and holds to this world through a love of self.

Since God is All and all is God, for us to maintain the delusion of separation required that our consciousness's be veiled. But through the influence of Luciferic forces this veil has now become a prison, keeping us trapped in an identity of a separate self.

This imprisonment has been perpetuated with the distortion of Jesus's words and counterfeit experiences of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. All would be wise to learn about the many mansions of God's Kingdom and the imposter spirits and forces out there seeking to mislead us.

You'll have to explain that one to me.

I am sorry - that is a misquote. The prophecy is actually from Ezekiel 34.


As Jesus so powerfully communicated during his ministry, the teachings and instructions that came through Moses had been trampled upon by the Jews. But they are not unique. Mankind repeatedly does this with any Light that is brought into the world. Once the Messenger dies, their message becomes distorted in meaning and sometimes with the ommission or even altering of their teachings.

Jesus told us that there is only One Teacher, yet many still look to the church and its pastors to interpret Biblical scripture for us. It is wise to let go of our programmed understanding and go back to the words themselves and let the True Teacher awaken us to the layers of meanings contained there in.



Indeed He does. It's called the "sheep fold". He is the door to it.

He had his wilderness experience that typifies our whole life. He overcame Satan in His life, we must overcome our "self" by making choices that God can bless. We must learn to live BY the faith OF Jesus Christ who dwells within us and who possessed the mind of His Father. The works that are produced will have the stamp of God on them and will prove our faith to be in Him and of Him.

He who overcomes....self " [Rev]
"If any man follow me let him deny him --self...." ---- his own disposition in matters.

Yes, ormly. We are in the wilderness here, the outer darkness, the burning purifying fire (hell).

If I may offer the following that was recently shared with another -

If we look at ourselves as two created beings
corresponding to the two stories of creation in
Genesis, the confusion that arises regarding our
perfection can be cleared.

First we were made in the image of God and placed in
the universe that was created in chapter one. This
was not a physical universe as the one our eyes look
upon now. This was a spiritual universe and when
creation was completed, God looked upon it and said it
was good. All was perfect.

But then something happened leading to the necessity
of another creation as is told about in chapter two.

In several esoteric writings we are told that adam/man
came under the influence of Lucifer (see The Great
Fall of the Spirits) and fell in density.

Density is determined by our vibration. The more we
vibe in harmony and unity with the divine the finer
our density, the more we are inharmonious to unity,
and separative in our thoughts and actions, the
heavier our density.

As we fell, we moved far from the Source - God the
Father - in consciousness. To aid us in finding our
way back Home, a Plan of Salvation was inacted and a
material world was created for us, as told in Genesis
two. There, we would be able to experience what was
before only known in consciousness. Part of the
manifestation in matter was the creation of Eve, which
was to allow us to experience more deeply the schism
in our own consciousness between what is known as the
masculine and the feminine. It is the feminine part of
consciousness througout all creation that makes the
choice to move farther into separation from the
Source.

In the Garden of Eden we were to work out our
salvation while in remembrance and connection with the
Divine.

But then again Lucifer influenced man/Eve and we fell
into deeper density. It is here that we experience
the beginnings of our guilt and shame and are clothed
by God in these fleshly bodies.

Buried deep within our physical and subtle bodies is
that initial spark of God created in Genesis one.
This spark is the child of God, perfect in every way.
But it is clothed in the imperfect matter of our gross
and subtle bodies.

The problem lies not in what humanity is asked to do,
but in its mistaken identification with its material
body. These bodies are vey much like an amputee's
when it comes to running the race of salvation! Good
analogy.

It is not these broken, wounded bodies that are going to be
saved, but through our letting go of them, they will
be transfigured.

We are already perfect - the Divine spark sleeping
within - but fail to identify ourselves as that
perfect spark of God. Instead we identify ourselves
as the separate broken, wounded, ego personalities in
which we are clothed.

Be ye therefore perfect is the death or denial of the
imperfect ego self. Only then can the perfect child
of God, the spark of Christ within, Live.

All we have to do is let go of the imperfect self and
we will be what we already are.

But letting go is not a simple task, for humanity is
bound in fear and shame and guilt -- all which began
when we fell in the Garden - and identifies itself as
the imperfect.

What can we do, b? Instead of children of God,
this world is filled with fearful, untrusting egos.
They are so bound by eons of emotional damage that
they cannot hear the glorious Truth that brings
freedom.


When we are transfigured as He was an the mount Transfiguration. With us it will be when He comes to fetch us out of this world. That will be our mount Transfiguration.

Keep in mind: He's coming for "players", not "cheerleaders".:smile:


Well put!


Transfiguration was in the past a more common occurance for humanity (remember Moses and Elihah with Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration?). Hinduism and Buddhism is also filled with stories of individual transfigurations. But we no longer see individuals obtaining salvation or transfiguration. Many have offered varying opinions regarding why. All that keeps coming to mind is what Jesus called us to do. Deny self, look to others in love and service and follow him. But it is only when we come to understand what this self is that we can begin to deny it.


Proverbs 14:8-8 8 The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way, But the folly of fools is deceit.




vivian

[Ormly]

Yes, ormly. We are in the wilderness here, the outer darkness, the burning purifying fire (hell).


This is where we go wrong when viewing God's direction for our lives for our God is a [the] consuming fire. [Heb 12.29]

This can be no fire of a hellish origin but one that consumes all that hinders our relationship with Him.

John said: I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire
[Luke 3:16]

Again, per the article, when did He ever do that while on Earth? [see Acts 2]

Now ask what the need so that the fire consumes as inmtended by God.

[Ormly]

Here's something for your edification:


God has ordained this speaking in an unknown tongue unto Himself as a wonderful, supernatural means of communication in the Spirit. As we speak to Him in the unknown tongue we speak wonderful mysteries in the Spirit. In Rom. 8:27 we read, "He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Many times as we speak unto God in an unknown tongue we are in intercession and as we pray thus in the Spirit we pray according to the will of God. And there is such a thing as the Spirit making intercession with groanings which cannot be uttered.

On this line I want to tell you about Willie Burton, who is laboring for God in the Belgium Congo. Brother Burton is a mighty man of God and is giving his life for the heathen in Africa. He took fever and went down to death. They said; "He has preached his last; what shall we do?" All their hopes seemed to be blighted, and there they stood, with broken hearts, wondering what was going to take place. They left him for dead; but, in a moment, without any signal, he stood right in the midst of them; and they could not understand it. The explanation he gave was this, that, when he came to himself, he realized a warmth going right through his body; and there wasn't one thing wrong with him. How did it come about? It was a mystery until he went to London and was telling the people how he was left for dead, and then was raised up. A lady came up and asked for a private. conversation with him, and arranged a time. She asked, "Do you keep a diary?" He answered, "Yes." She told him, "It happened on a certain day that I went to pray; and as soon as I knelt, I had you on my mind. -The Spirit of the Lord took hold of me and prayed through me in an unknown tongue. A vision came before me in which I saw you laid out helpless; and I cried out in the unknown tongue till I saw you rise up and go out of that room." She had kept a note of the time and when he turned to his diary he found that it was exactly the time when he was raised up. There are great possibilities as we yield to the Spirit and speak unto God in quiet hours in our bedrooms. God wants you to be filled with the Holy Ghost so that everything about you shall be charged with the dynamic of heaven.

There's more to this article.

[Vivian]

This is where we go wrong when viewing God's direction for our lives for our God is a [the] consuming fire. [Heb 12.29]

This can be no fire of a hellish origin but one that consumes all that hinders our relationship with Him.

What is it that hinders our relationship with Him?

And what is hell but a purging fire that dissolves all that separates?

Any who have tasted Oneness with God (though not I) will tell you that He/Love is a burning fire that dissolves all darkness and delusion of separation.

Love seeks to flow and join in scared unity with Itself and will break down barriers that prevent such a joining.

Think of each of us as cells of a Body and if we cling to our individualization, God's Love will burn away all barriers of separation so that we may join together as One Body.

John said: I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire
[Luke 3:16]

Again, per the article, when did He ever do that while on Earth? [see Acts 2]

The Burning Fire of God as an inner experience.

For those who are siginifcantly prepared, the burning fire of God's Love will bring unity in joy and bliss. But for those still holding to evil - separative thoughts, behaviors and deeds - such an experience will bring suffering and the purgation of the darkness within.

When the barriers have been dissolved, God's Love will flow as we see in Acts 2. We rarely see such miracles today because of the evil that still exists within humanity preventing God's Love and Power from flowing through us into this world.


Now ask what the need so that the fire consumes as inmtended by God.

Can you clarify what you are asking here?


vivian

[Vivian]

Here's something for your edification:


God has ordained this speaking in an unknown tongue unto Himself as a wonderful, supernatural means of communication in the Spirit. As we speak to Him in the unknown tongue we speak wonderful mysteries in the Spirit. In Rom. 8:27 we read, "He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Many times as we speak unto God in an unknown tongue we are in intercession and as we pray thus in the Spirit we pray according to the will of God. And there is such a thing as the Spirit making intercession with groanings which cannot be uttered.

On this line I want to tell you about Willie Burton, who is laboring for God in the Belgium Congo. Brother Burton is a mighty man of God and is giving his life for the heathen in Africa. He took fever and went down to death. They said; "He has preached his last; what shall we do?" All their hopes seemed to be blighted, and there they stood, with broken hearts, wondering what was going to take place. They left him for dead; but, in a moment, without any signal, he stood right in the midst of them; and they could not understand it. The explanation he gave was this, that, when he came to himself, he realized a warmth going right through his body; and there wasn't one thing wrong with him. How did it come about? It was a mystery until he went to London and was telling the people how he was left for dead, and then was raised up. A lady came up and asked for a private. conversation with him, and arranged a time. She asked, "Do you keep a diary?" He answered, "Yes." She told him, "It happened on a certain day that I went to pray; and as soon as I knelt, I had you on my mind. -The Spirit of the Lord took hold of me and prayed through me in an unknown tongue. A vision came before me in which I saw you laid out helpless; and I cried out in the unknown tongue till I saw you rise up and go out of that room." She had kept a note of the time and when he turned to his diary he found that it was exactly the time when he was raised up. There are great possibilities as we yield to the Spirit and speak unto God in quiet hours in our bedrooms. God wants you to be filled with the Holy Ghost so that everything about you shall be charged with the dynamic of heaven.

There's more to this article.


Hello ormly,

This excerpt brings up a critical issue for all of us during these times.

You recall that Jesus said that many would come to him saying Lord Lord, having performed miracles and such, but he did not know them so they too would be cast into the outer darkness.

Right now the world is filled with miraculous occurrances: healings; Holy Spirit outpourings; channellings; angel, et, and ufo visitations, even the voice of Jesus as well as that of other Masters.

Right understanding of the enemy is vital.

There is a deluge of evil invading the physical world and we cannot possibly discern Truth from falsity using only limited knowledge and our mundane senses. True discernment requires spiritual Seeing and Hearing supported by right understanding.

For anyone interested, guidance may be found earnestly seeking and re reading the stories in the New Testament of the encounters of Jesus with his disciples and others. There was an inner recognition. Jesus told Peter that this recognition of the Christ did not come from the mundane senses (flesh and blood) but from a Spiritual knowing that comes from the Father.

In response then to the above article, I am unable to discern what spirits are working through the two individuals to bring about the miracle that is reported by only reading the story itself. There are those whose spiritual senses are so intuned and are thus able to See but mine are not.

This may startle some to think that such a story could posssibly be the work of evil. But evil is that which keeps us separate from Unity with God and even the goodness of this world is used by malevolent forces for that end.



Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.


vivian

[Richbee]

I sometimes have difficulty get past some of Paul language or words in 2 Corinthians 3:17 - 21.

"Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3 vs 17)

I discovered someone asserting that Jesus became the life giving spirit.......

Since the last Adam (CHRIST) BECAME a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15 vs 45), you have no case whatsoever to fight as hard as you are fighting against this truth.

Christ became a life giving Spirit in resurrection. So today the Lord Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit.

How can Christ be in us if He is not the Holy Spirit?

Can you help me to help my Brother see the Trinity more clearly, with distinct separate "persona"?

[piggy]

In previous years, I have heard you speak and was drawn to the logic that you applied in seeking to understand God's Truth. Since that time, my beliefs have been discarded and replaced with an experiential knowing and it is from this place that I offer the following for your consideration.

Just as the Jews of Jesus’ time had become lost in the traditions of men and the distortions in the interpretation of their scripture, so has modern day Christianity. The issue is not word placement, or the translation of this word or that, but the cloud of distortion that accompanies the present day Bible.

The problem began in the days of Constantine when a dogma that was inducive to political control was forced upon the then followers of Jesus. Those who did not adhere to the voted upon dogma were exterminated.

I personally would not hold to any interpretation that was construed by a religion that set out to kill those in disagreement and would suggest to anyone wanting their understanding of scripture to be founded on logic and reason to look closely at the actions of the “church” in years of Constantine and immediately after.

Jesus said his disciples would be persecuted, so I would consider it most likely that those being persecuted were more in line with Truth than those doing the persecution.

May I use your argument regarding the deity of Jesus as an example?

Jesus refers to himself as both the son of man and the son of God.

Have you considered that Jesus, as a son of man is a created being, just as we are, but the consciousness that was manifested within Him was the Son of God, the Christ, and it is that consciousness that was One with the Father?

God is Spirit, not flesh. God begets Spirit not flesh. God the Father beget Christ. Jesus was born of Mary’s body. Jesus was flesh although the consciousness within him was Spirit.

First there was One – the Absolute All, then there were two – The Masculine Father God and the Feminine Mother Holy Spirit, and from Their interaction was born the only begotten Son – The Christ or Divine Love. And so there were then Three, the Holy Trinity. Out of Christ came the many - or all that was created - and that many dwells in the many mansions of God’s Kingdom.

God’s Kingdom is Spirit, not flesh or of the physical world.

Instead of boxes it looks like a spiral. The outer ring of the spiral is the outer darkness, where we dwell. The spiral descends into the Infinite that is The Father – God and everything in between are the many mansions that were created through Christ.

Our consciousness is the prodigal son that dwells here in the outer darkness. Christ came through the person of Jesus to show us the Way back to our Father’s House. Our minds are lost, veiled, by the Luciferic consciousness and have lost the Way.

When John spoke of the Word, he was speaking of the vibrational Essence of the Father that was begotten in Christ. And when he says that the Word was made flesh he was referring to Christ being incarnated into the being of Jesus.

In the state of Oneness that Jesus refers to in John 17, there is no individual identity, so that when a being who is One says “I” he is referring to the unity of his consciousness/spirit with the Father God Consciousness.

There are several stories in the Old Testament of Divine Messengers who spoke of God in first person just as Jesus did.

The personality/body that clothed Jesus was not Divine, it was the son of man and the same that clothes us. What was different was the consciousness that dwelled within His fleshly vehicle. Jesus’ was able to break through the veils and exist as both One with the Father and as an individual on this plane at the same time. And after ascending to the Father, he was able to manifest a physical body according to his will while still maintaining Unity in Consciousness.

If we allow no man to teach us but the One Teacher, Master - the Christ, we will find that contained within the Bible are Universal Truths for all of humanity. Through distortion that began with the modern day Catholic church these Universal Truths has been turned into dogmas used to cause wars and separation among humanity.

It is the same with all Holy Scripture that has been revealed to humanity. Once the Messenger dies, the interpretation of the Scripture is contaminated and distorted. Jesus prophesied that there would be a falling away from His Teachings.

This great apostasy is upon us.



vivian

Hi Vivian,
Very interesting points which I am inclined to agree with.
If one sets aside my lack of eloquence and grammatical skills, one might find the offerings in a couple of threads on another forum ( which touch on this topic) worthy of consideration.

It would be interesting to have your thought and comments on this.

Here are the links to the threads:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8749

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8746

piggy.

Please do not argue via weblink or advertise links to other web boards. If you wish to discuss things that are on another web board, do so THERE, not here, or bring the conversation here by quoting exactly what it is you wish to discuss here.