Abrogated verses of the Quran

[Krusader]

The Quran includes many abrogated verses, called mansukh, and abrogating verses called nasikh; the latter cancel the former, rendering them invalid, though they nevertheless remain in the Quran.

Of the Quran's 114 surahs, only 43 are without abrogated or abrogating verses. Many westerners are unaware that many portions of the Quran are theologically annulled.

How does one know if verses have been abrogated? Later texts often abrogate earlier texts whenever there are inconsistencies between them. Many of the Quranic verses that teach tolerance and peace, in particular those that prohibit compulsion in religion, are found in Surah 2, one of the oldest surahs, and thus liable for abrogation.

Surah 2:256, often quoted by Muslim apologists, states:

"Let there be no compulsion in relgion; truth stands out clearly from error."

Of course, Mohammed received this revelation when he was surrounded by many non-Muslim enemies. It would have been foolhardy on the part of his followers to attempt to "compel" the non-Muslim majority to Islam.

However, after Mohammed became the established ruler in Mecca, and while he was preparing his followers for holy jihad to spread Islam, Allah changed his tune:

Surah 48:29: "Mohammed is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to unbelievers but merciful to one another.

Surah 8:37: "In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones (non-Muslims) one on top of another in a heap, and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost."

Surah 8:12-13L "Allah revealed His will to the angels, saying, I shall be with you. Give courage to the believers. I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels (non-Muslims). Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers. That was because they defied Allah and His apostle. He that defies Allah and his apostle shall be sternly punished by Allah."

And many more could be cited.

When Islam wishes to appear peaceful, surah 2 is often quoted.......without mentioning the abrogating verses.

[kiwimac]

Let me see

Sura 48:29

048.029 Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

Al-Qur'an, 048.029 (Al-Fath [Victory, Conquest])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.9

Sura 8: 35-


008.035 Their prayer at the House (of Allah) is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands: (Its only answer can be), "Taste ye the penalty because ye blasphemed."

008.036 The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (man) from the path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have (only) regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the Unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell;-

008.037 In order that Allah may separate the impure from the pure, put the impure, one on another, heap them together, and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost.

008.038 Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).

Al-Qur'an, 008.035-038 (Al-Anfal [Spoils of War, Booty])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.9

Sura 8:12-13


008.012 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

008.013 This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.

Al-Qur'an, 008.012-013 (Al-Anfal [Spoils of War, Booty])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.9

All of these texts deal with those who are either professing themselves Muslims but who really are not or those who ACTIVELY war against Muhammad and the nascent Islamic Community.

Sura 2:256


002.256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Al-Qur'an, 002.256 (Al-Baqara [The Cow])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.9

Sura 2:256 is much broader than the other verses quoted. It deals with Muslim relations with Jews / Christians / Pagans WHO DO NOT war against Muhammad or against Islam.

Once again friend, CONTEXT, context, context!

Kiwimac

[Krusader]

kiwi, why are you quoting from Surah 2, when that has been clearly abrogated. I am just finishing reading a commentary on the Quran by Doi, a Muslim, who also states that this is abrogated.

None of the verses you mention would necessarily abrogate those which I quoted.

This is why, kiwi, that I said that it's so difficult to contextualize anything in the Quran, since all things are subject to later change, and the surahs are not in chronological order but, rather, according to length.

The whole hodge-podge is virtually unintelligible, as far as it goes - and vss. used to promote the view that peace and justice reigns in Islam are not necessarily relevant any longer.

By the way, do you have an Anglican background?

[revivalfire]

You said that Surah 8:35-008.038...I think I did that right.....anyway...it says that..if you come to Allah...he will forgive you of your past..... How? There is no punishment for the sin you have committed...he sounds like a soft god to me......just thought I'd throw that in there...

[Krusader]

You said that Surah 8:35-008.038...I think I did that right.....anyway...it says that..if you come to Allah...he will forgive you of your past..... How? There is no punishment for the sin you have committed...he sounds like a soft god to me......just thought I'd throw that in there...
There is no basis for forgiveness in Islam. The Quran simply states that you must believe in Allah (who apparently has never talked to a soul but Mohammed) and follow his apostle, and MAYBE you'll get into Paradise. If you are a male, you will get 72 wives. If you are a female, you will get 1/72 of a husband, I suppose........not to mention that you will be able to eternally serve your husband as he plays around with his 71 other wives. Sounds like hell to me.

[revivalfire]

There is no basis for forgiveness in Islam. The Quran simply states that you must believe in Allah (who apparently has never talked to a soul but Mohammed) and follow his apostle, and MAYBE you'll get into Paradise. If you are a male, you will get 72 wives. If you are a female, you will get 1/72 of a husband, I suppose........not to mention that you will be able to eternally serve your husband as he plays around with his 71 other wives. Sounds like hell to me.
That's it!! Mohammed is telling us what not to do....why didn't we sit before?:wink: :wink: :lol: :lol:

[Cynic Sage]

This is why, kiwi, that I said that it's so difficult to contextualize anything in the Quran, since all things are subject to later change, and the surahs are not in chronological order but, rather, according to length.
Keep in mind that there are books of the Bible that are not placed in chronological order as well. For example, The Epistles were written before the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

The whole hodge-podge is virtually unintelligible, as far as it goes - and vss. used to promote the view that peace and justice reigns in Islam are not necessarily relevant any longer.
Wow, such provincialism. "I can't understand it!" Does that make you a competent critic of said piece of literature. If you have this problem with the Qu'ran, imagine what it will be like if you try reading Shakespeare, Tacitus, or even watching a foreign film. Also keep in mind that a piece of literature is meant to be read as a whole.

Man, if you were an "internet infidel" type who criticized the Bible the same way you criticize the Qu'ran, the folks here who have done contextual study would chew you up, and spit you out here.

And Kiwimac, thanks for posting the extended versions. It is one of my pet-peeves when someone arbitrarily quotes a single verse and then leaves you hanging as to what it means.

By the way, do you have an Anglican background?
What does that have to do with anything?

[Augustine2004]

the surahs are not in chronological order but, rather, according to length.

The whole hodge-podge is virtually unintelligible, as far as it goes - and vss. used to promote the view that peace and justice reigns in Islam are not necessarily relevant any longer.How would one know the date of any given surah? So that one can determine whether one surah is later than another?

[Cynic Sage]

There is no basis for forgiveness in Islam. The Quran simply states that you must believe in Allah (who apparently has never talked to a soul but Mohammed) and follow his apostle, and MAYBE you'll get into Paradise. If you are a male, you will get 72 wives. If you are a female, you will get 1/72 of a husband, I suppose........not to mention that you will be able to eternally serve your husband as he plays around with his 71 other wives. Sounds like hell to me.
In Islam, Muhammad is not the only prophet, however, he is supposed to be the "Big Cheese" Prophet.

[Krusader]

Johnny: I find Anglicans interesting. After all, I was one for many years. Also, I've noted some things in Kiwi's posts that sound Anglican to me.

As for you, any evangelical scholar would chew you up and spit you out in a New York minute.

Have a nice day.

[Cynic Sage]

Johnny: I find Anglicans interesting. After all, I was one for many years. Also, I've noted some things in Kiwi's posts that sound Anglican to me.
Yeah, C.S. Lewis was Anglican. And he was pretty cool.

As for you, any evangelical scholar would chew you up and spit you out in a New York minute.[/QUOTE]
Is that about the "Epistles/Gospels dating" thing,
Or is it my cocky, arrogant, young Turk attitude?:lol:

May a Hamster bulid a nest and raise a litter of 24 pups in your beard.:tongue:

[Krusader]

Yeah, C.S. Lewis was Anglican. And he was pretty cool.

Is that about the "Epistles/Gospels dating" thing,
Or is it my cocky, arrogant, young Turk attitude?:lol:

May a Hamster bulid a nest and raise a litter of 24 pups in your beard.:tongue:[/QUOTE]
I also like Lewis, and Stott. However, ECUSA has been taken over by arch-liberals. In New Jersey, alone, they had to shut down 40 churches. People are leaving right and left......eventually, I suppose, they will have a lot more bishops than members.

[revivalfire]

It's the government......Do you expect the liberals sit by and watch the church regroup into a decent fighting force? No!!

[Timothy Leary]

There is no basis for forgiveness in Islam.

Well folks, here's your proof that Crusader doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Augustine2004]

Well folks, here's your proof that Crusader doesn't know what he's talking about.
Please be explicit: You think that Crusader's abrogation thing is wrong.
Anyway, did anyone notice that C. has yet to answer my question regarding the dates of the suras?

[Jude3b]

Keep in mind that there are books of the Bible that are not placed in chronological order as well. For example, The Epistles were written before the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.


Wow, such provincialism. "I can't understand it!" Does that make you a competent critic of said piece of literature. If you have this problem with the Qu'ran, imagine what it will be like if you try reading Shakespeare, Tacitus, or even watching a foreign film. Also keep in mind that a piece of literature is meant to be read as a whole.

Man, if you were an "internet infidel" type who criticized the Bible the same way you criticize the Qu'ran, the folks here who have done contextual study would chew you up, and spit you out here.

And Kiwimac, thanks for posting the extended versions. It is one of my pet-peeves when someone arbitrarily quotes a single verse and then leaves you hanging as to what it means.


What does that have to do with anything?

Dear Johnny EC:

Since Crusader is posting to an Islam thread about Abrogated verses of the Quran, why do you mention things that have nothing to do with this thread - such as your comment about the Bible?

[wolf]

I will just Post what I posted in the locker room regarding abrogation. What has not been presented yet is the other side. There are more than one view on abrogation and many muslims consider it to be heresy in vented sometime after the founder of Islam.

I quote from

www.submission.org/abrogation.html (http://www.submission.org/abrogation.html)

The abrogation of Quranic verses, arguably the greatest lie against the Quran, was originally invented during the fourth century A.H. (late 10th century A.D.) by some Muslim scholars notably Ahmed Bin Ishaq Al-Dinary (died 318 A.H.), Mohamad Bin Bahr Al-Asbahany (died 322 A.H.), Hebat Allah Bin Salamah (died 410 A.H.) and Mohamad Bin Mousa Al-Hazmy (died 548 A.H.), whose book about Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh is regarded as one of the leading references in the subject.



Although God asserts that the Quran is perfect and harbours no contradictions, yet sadly these scholars have invented the greatest lie about the Quran, claiming that there are verses in the Quran that abrogate and invalidate other verses.

They base their claim on a corrupted interpretation of two verses:



FIRST VERSE 2:106



"Whichever Ayah We relinquish or cause to be forgotten We replace it with its equal or with that which is greater, did you not know that God is capable of all things?" 2:106

What the interpreters claim is that this verse confirms that some Quranic verses are invalidated by others. They interpret ‘Ayah’ in this verse to mean a verse in the Quran.

However the word Ayah, as used in the Quran, can have one of four different meanings:



a- It could mean a miracle from God as in:

"And We supported Moses with nine profound Ayah’s (miracles)." 17:101

b- It could also mean an example for people to take heed from as in:

"And the folk of Noah, when they disbelieved the messengers, We have drowned them and set an Ayah (example) of them for all people." 25:37

c- The word ‘Ayah’ can also mean a sign as in:

"He said, ‘My Lord, give me an ‘Ayah’ (sign).’ He said, ‘Your Ayah is that you will not speak to people for three consecutive nights." 19:10

d- It could mean a verse in the Quran, as in:

"This is a book that We have sent down to you that is sacred, perhaps they will reflect on its ‘Ayat’ (verses)." 38:29



Now if we consider verse 106 of Sura 2, we can easily spot that the word ‘Ayah’ in this particular verse could not mean a verse in the Quran. It can mean any of the other meanings (miracle, example or sign) but not a verse in the Quran. This is because of the following reasons:

1- The words "cause to be forgotten" could not be applicable if the word ‘Ayah’ in this verse meant a verse in the Quran. How can a verse in the Quran become forgotten? For even if the verse was invalidated by another (as the interpreters falsely claim) it will still be part of the Quran and thus could never be forgotten.

2- The words "We replace it with its equal" would be meaningless if the word ‘Ayah’ in this verse meant a Quranic verse, simply because it would make no sense for God to invalidate one verse then replace it with one that is identical to it!

3- If the word ‘Ayah’ in verse 106 meant a miracle an example or a sign, then all the words of the verse would make perfect sense. The words "cause to be forgotten" can apply to all three meanings and that is what actually happens with the passing of time. The miracles of Moses and Jesus have long been forgotten. We only believe in them because they are mentioned in the Quran.

Similarly the words "We replace with its equal or with that which is greater" is in line with the miracles of God. God indeed replaces one miracle with its equal or with one that is greater than it. Consider the following verse :

"And We have sent Moses with Our Ayah’s (miracles or signs) to Pharaoh and his elders proclaiming : ‘I am a messenger from the Lord of the universe’. When he brought them our Ayah’s they laughed at him. Every Ayah We showed them was greater than the one that preceded it." 43:46-48



SECOND VERSE 16:101



"When We substitute one Ayat (revelation) in place of another, and God is fully aware of what He reveals, they say, 'You made this up'. Indeed most of them do not know"



The substitution spoken of here is concerned with one of two things:

a- The substitution of one Scripture in place of another.

b- The substitution of one verse or law within a Scripture with another in a subsequent Scripture



a- The first meaning is given evidence to in the following verse:



"Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them." 5:48

Here, the words "superseding them." confirm that the previous scripture were substituted with the Quran.



b- The second meaning is also given evidence to in the Quran where various issues that were prohibited to the previous people of the book were made lawful in the Quran.

As an example, we are told in 2:187 that sexual intercourse between married couples during the nights of the fasting month was made lawful, while it was prohibited previously.

We are also told in 6:146 that God prohibited for the Jews all animals with undivided hoofs; and of the cattle and sheep the fat was prohibited. These were made lawful in the Quran.

This verse 16:101 does not speak about the substitution of one verse in the Quran with another.

The evidence to that is given within the same verse (16:101):
The key to the meaning of the verse lies in the words:

"........they say, 'You made this up"

Here we must stop and ask, who is likely to tell the messenger "You made this up"? and why? For sure it cannot be his followers, his followers are not likely to tell him

"You have made it up"................it has to be those who do not believe in him, which focuses on the followers of previous scripture who feared that their scripture was in danger of being "substituted"with the Quran............

What more evidence to that more than the fact that till this day, the Jews and Christians accuse Muhammad that he fabricated the Quran himself! If this accusation is from the Jews and Christians we must then ask, are they accusing Muhammad of substituting one verse in the Quran with another? The Jews and Christians do not care if one verse in the Quran is substituted for another, after all they do not believe in the whole book............. they will not complain that one verse in the Quran is being substituted with another! However, and if their Scripture is being substituted by the Quran, they will immediately accuse the messenger that the Scripture he brings (Quran) is not from God but that he "made it up" himself.



These glorious words "You have made it up" indeed stand as true indicator from God Almighty that the substitution spoken of in this verse is not related to one within the Quran, but indeed a substitution between two scripture.

As mentioned before, the substitution of the previous scripture with the Quran is confirmed in 5:48

As a result of the corruption of the meaning of 2:106 and 16:101, and the claim that some Quranic verses invalidate other verses, the interpreters have demonstrated their failure to uphold two main characteristics of the Quran, those being that the Quran is perfect and harbours no contradictions (11:1) and also that the words of God are unchangeable (10:64).



I hope this adequately presents the diverse view on this concept and gives the readers pause for thought.

Thanks


Wasalam
(Peace)


Wolf

[Krusader]

I will just Post what I posted in the locker room regarding abrogation. What has not been presented yet is the other side. There are more than one view on abrogation and many muslims consider it to be heresy in vented sometime after the founder of Islam.

I quote from

www.submission.org/abrogation.html (http://www.submission.org/abrogation.html)

The abrogation of Quranic verses, arguably the greatest lie against the Quran, was originally invented during the fourth century A.H. (late 10th century A.D.) by some Muslim scholars notably Ahmed Bin Ishaq Al-Dinary (died 318 A.H.), Mohamad Bin Bahr Al-Asbahany (died 322 A.H.), Hebat Allah Bin Salamah (died 410 A.H.) and Mohamad Bin Mousa Al-Hazmy (died 548 A.H.), whose book about Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh is regarded as one of the leading references in the subject.



Although God asserts that the Quran is perfect and harbours no contradictions, yet sadly these scholars have invented the greatest lie about the Quran, claiming that there are verses in the Quran that abrogate and invalidate other verses.

They base their claim on a corrupted interpretation of two verses:



FIRST VERSE 2:106



"Whichever Ayah We relinquish or cause to be forgotten We replace it with its equal or with that which is greater, did you not know that God is capable of all things?" 2:106

What the interpreters claim is that this verse confirms that some Quranic verses are invalidated by others. They interpret ‘Ayah’ in this verse to mean a verse in the Quran.

However the word Ayah, as used in the Quran, can have one of four different meanings:



a- It could mean a miracle from God as in:

"And We supported Moses with nine profound Ayah’s (miracles)." 17:101

b- It could also mean an example for people to take heed from as in:

"And the folk of Noah, when they disbelieved the messengers, We have drowned them and set an Ayah (example) of them for all people." 25:37

c- The word ‘Ayah’ can also mean a sign as in:

"He said, ‘My Lord, give me an ‘Ayah’ (sign).’ He said, ‘Your Ayah is that you will not speak to people for three consecutive nights." 19:10

d- It could mean a verse in the Quran, as in:

"This is a book that We have sent down to you that is sacred, perhaps they will reflect on its ‘Ayat’ (verses)." 38:29



Now if we consider verse 106 of Sura 2, we can easily spot that the word ‘Ayah’ in this particular verse could not mean a verse in the Quran. It can mean any of the other meanings (miracle, example or sign) but not a verse in the Quran. This is because of the following reasons:

1- The words "cause to be forgotten" could not be applicable if the word ‘Ayah’ in this verse meant a verse in the Quran. How can a verse in the Quran become forgotten? For even if the verse was invalidated by another (as the interpreters falsely claim) it will still be part of the Quran and thus could never be forgotten.

2- The words "We replace it with its equal" would be meaningless if the word ‘Ayah’ in this verse meant a Quranic verse, simply because it would make no sense for God to invalidate one verse then replace it with one that is identical to it!

3- If the word ‘Ayah’ in verse 106 meant a miracle an example or a sign, then all the words of the verse would make perfect sense. The words "cause to be forgotten" can apply to all three meanings and that is what actually happens with the passing of time. The miracles of Moses and Jesus have long been forgotten. We only believe in them because they are mentioned in the Quran.

Similarly the words "We replace with its equal or with that which is greater" is in line with the miracles of God. God indeed replaces one miracle with its equal or with one that is greater than it. Consider the following verse :

"And We have sent Moses with Our Ayah’s (miracles or signs) to Pharaoh and his elders proclaiming : ‘I am a messenger from the Lord of the universe’. When he brought them our Ayah’s they laughed at him. Every Ayah We showed them was greater than the one that preceded it." 43:46-48



SECOND VERSE 16:101



"When We substitute one Ayat (revelation) in place of another, and God is fully aware of what He reveals, they say, 'You made this up'. Indeed most of them do not know"



The substitution spoken of here is concerned with one of two things:

a- The substitution of one Scripture in place of another.

b- The substitution of one verse or law within a Scripture with another in a subsequent Scripture



a- The first meaning is given evidence to in the following verse:



"Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them." 5:48

Here, the words "superseding them." confirm that the previous scripture were substituted with the Quran.



b- The second meaning is also given evidence to in the Quran where various issues that were prohibited to the previous people of the book were made lawful in the Quran.

As an example, we are told in 2:187 that sexual intercourse between married couples during the nights of the fasting month was made lawful, while it was prohibited previously.

We are also told in 6:146 that God prohibited for the Jews all animals with undivided hoofs; and of the cattle and sheep the fat was prohibited. These were made lawful in the Quran.

This verse 16:101 does not speak about the substitution of one verse in the Quran with another.

The evidence to that is given within the same verse (16:101):
The key to the meaning of the verse lies in the words:

"........they say, 'You made this up"

Here we must stop and ask, who is likely to tell the messenger "You made this up"? and why? For sure it cannot be his followers, his followers are not likely to tell him

"You have made it up"................it has to be those who do not believe in him, which focuses on the followers of previous scripture who feared that their scripture was in danger of being "substituted"with the Quran............

What more evidence to that more than the fact that till this day, the Jews and Christians accuse Muhammad that he fabricated the Quran himself! If this accusation is from the Jews and Christians we must then ask, are they accusing Muhammad of substituting one verse in the Quran with another? The Jews and Christians do not care if one verse in the Quran is substituted for another, after all they do not believe in the whole book............. they will not complain that one verse in the Quran is being substituted with another! However, and if their Scripture is being substituted by the Quran, they will immediately accuse the messenger that the Scripture he brings (Quran) is not from God but that he "made it up" himself.



These glorious words "You have made it up" indeed stand as true indicator from God Almighty that the substitution spoken of in this verse is not related to one within the Quran, but indeed a substitution between two scripture.

As mentioned before, the substitution of the previous scripture with the Quran is confirmed in 5:48

As a result of the corruption of the meaning of 2:106 and 16:101, and the claim that some Quranic verses invalidate other verses, the interpreters have demonstrated their failure to uphold two main characteristics of the Quran, those being that the Quran is perfect and harbours no contradictions (11:1) and also that the words of God are unchangeable (10:64).



I hope this adequately presents the diverse view on this concept and gives the readers pause for thought.

Thanks


Wasalam
(Peace)


Wolf
Thanks for that point of view. It's nice to have an intellectual Muslim posting here. Would you agree that there are different views in Islam regarding abrogation?

For instance, aren't the various views:

1. Those who do not only believe that the Quran is subject to abrogation, but who also contend that a great number of its decrees have been abrogated.

2. Those who maintain that no abrogation took place in the Quran.

3. Those who opine that although abrogation has taken place in the Quran, yet the number of abrogated verses is very small.

Based on the first view, would you say that Islamic terrorists believe that the verses in the Quran dealing with no compulsion in religion and living in peace alongside Christians and Jews, have been abrogated.

(The above 3 points of view were taken directly from a Sunni website).

[Pilgrim]

Dear Johnny EC:

Since Crusader is posting to an Islam thread about Abrogated verses of the Quran, why do you mention things that have nothing to do with this thread - such as your comment about the Bible?
What a really wierd thing to say. Of course there is a relationship. The reason he brought it up was to make a comparison which is perfectly reasonable because if a thing is a negative characteristic for one it is for the other as well. It is an interesting point and highlights a certain double standard that is being exemplified by Crusader.

[Krusader]

How would one know the date of any given surah? So that one can determine whether one surah is later than another?
To tell you the truth, I don't really know. I just finished reading a commentary that places surah 2 in the very early Medinaian period. I think Muslims, themselves are divided on the dating.

[Krusader]

What a really wierd thing to say. Of course there is a relationship. The reason he brought it up was to make a comparison which is perfectly reasonable because if a thing is a negative characteristic for one it is for the other as well. It is an interesting point and highlights a certain double standard that is being exemplified by Crusader.
No, it's not a weird thing to say. The only person who has actually dealt with the issue in an intellectual fashion is Wolf, the Muslim. Everybody else just denies the existence of the doctrine of abrogation or calls Jude and myself "liars," etc.

As for the Bible, I think we can all agree that the Mosaic Law, and other OT laws, were replaced by the Perfect Law of Liberty.

[Timothy Leary]

Please be explicit: You think that Crusader's abrogation thing is wrong.
Anyway, did anyone notice that C. has yet to answer my question regarding the dates of the suras?

I quoted the part where he said "there is no basis for forgiveness in Islam". Such a statement can only be made in Ignorance by one who has not studied Islam.

[Krusader]

I quoted the part where he said "there is no basis for forgiveness in Islam". Such a statement can only be made in Ignorance by one who has not studied Islam.I did reply to Augustine's question regarding the dating of the surahs. Also, as far as Islam having a basis for forgiveness, you as a Jew should know that there is no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of Blood.

Have you forgotten the daily sacrifices in the Temple? Have you forgotten the Passover lamb?

For Christians, Christ is our Passover Lamb, and it is his Blood that is the basis of the forgiveness of our sins. For the Jews, the Temple sacrifices have ceased, as predicted by the Prophet Daniel.

A Jew today must keep the Law perfectly or seek a remedy for sin.