The "Throne of David"

[Mickey]

On another thread Terral said:
We cannot place Christ on the throne of David in this world.The "throne of David" is an "earthly" throne.Solomon sat upon that throne,and it was not in heaven.The Apostle Peter referred to the following prophecy on the day of Pentecost:

"The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David;He will not turn from it: Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne"(Ps.132:11).

He then said::

"Therefore,being a prophet,and knowing that God had sworn an oath to him,that of the fruit of his loins,according to the flesh,He would raise up Christ to sit on his throne(Acts2:30).

So according to the Scriptures it was prophesised that the Lord Jesus will sit upon the throne of David.And that is exactly what Gabriel told Mary:

"He shall be great,and shall be called the Son of the Highest;and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father,David.And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever;and of His kingdom there shall be no end"(Lk.1:32,33).

So the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus will indeed sit upon the throne of David,an earthly throne.But Terral says that "we cannot place Christ on the throne of David in this world".Perhaps he wants to place the throne of David in heaven?
Christ told us that His kingdom is not of this world, and not even of this realm. John 18:36. The Lord Jesus said,"but now My Kingdom is not from here"(Jn.18:36).

We can know that His Kingdom will indeed be set up on the earth,and that is because the Lord Jesus told His disciples that He would drink of the "fruit of the vine" with them in the kingdom of God:

"Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God"(MK.14:25).

"That ye may eat and drink at My table in My Kingdom,and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel"(Lk.22:30).

Next,Terral said:

Our father David will rule from his throne eternally in Jerusalem upon the earth. Eze. 37:24-28.

" And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them"(Ez.37:24).The Israelites would know that the word "David" in this verses refers to the "seed" of David,David’s Greater Son,based on previous prophecies:

" Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth"( Jer..23:5).

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever"(Isa.9:6,7).

Surely the Israelites did not think that David is "the Mighty God".
Terral also says:

The book of Hebrews shows Christ taking possession of His throne in Heaven Above at the same time that David (Eze. 34:22-25) takes his throne here on earth.The Scriptures reveal that is is our "Lord" Who will take His throne here on earth:

"And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one….And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain"(Zech.14:9,17).

The reason that these nations will come to Jerusalem to worship the King is because He will be in Jerusalem.The following verse is in reference to the "earthly" Jerusalem:

"It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there"(Ez.48:35).

In Christ,

Mickey

[eschaton]

On another thread Terral said:
The "throne of David" is an "earthly" throne.Solomon sat upon that throne,and it was not in heaven.The Apostle Peter referred to the following prophecy on the day of Pentecost:

"The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David;He will not turn from it: Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne"(Ps.132:11).

He then said::

"Therefore,being a prophet,and knowing that God had sworn an oath to him,that of the fruit of his loins,according to the flesh,He would raise up Christ to sit on his throne(Acts2:30).

So according to the Scriptures it was prophesised that the Lord Jesus will sit upon the throne of David.And that is exactly what Gabriel told Mary:

"He shall be great,and shall be called the Son of the Highest;and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father,David.And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever;and of His kingdom there shall be no end"(Lk.1:32,33).

So the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus will indeed sit upon the throne of David,an earthly throne.But Terral says that "we cannot place Christ on the throne of David in this world".Perhaps he wants to place the throne of David in heaven?
The Lord Jesus said,"but now My Kingdom is not from here"(Jn.18:36).

We can know that His Kingdom will indeed be set up on the earth,and that is because the Lord Jesus told His disciples that He would drink of the "fruit of the vine" with them in the kingdom of God:

"Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God"(MK.14:25).

"That ye may eat and drink at My table in My Kingdom,and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel"(Lk.22:30).

Next,Terral said:

The Israelites would know that the word "David" in this verses refers to the "seed" of David,David’s Greater Son,based on previous prophecies:

" Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth"( Jer..23:5).

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever"(Isa.9:6,7).

Surely the Israelites did not think that David is "the Mighty God".
Terral also says:

The Scriptures reveal that is is our "Lord" Who will take His throne here on earth:

[/font]"And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one….And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain"(Zech.14:9,17).

The reason that these nations will come to Jerusalem to worship the King is because He will be in Jerusalem.The following verse is in reference to the "earthly" Jerusalem:

"It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there"(Ez.48:35).

In Christ,

Mickey



Hi Mickey,

A couple of quick questions. You say the throne is "earthly". Does this mean a physical piece of furniture? What does it mean when it says Solomon's throne should be bigger than David's?

1 King1:37 As the LORD hath been with my lord the king, even so be he with Solomon, and make his throne greater than the throne of my lord king David.

1King1:47 And moreover the king's servants came to bless our lord king David, saying, God make the name of Solomon better than thy name, and make his throne greater than thy throne. And the king bowed himself upon the bed.

Does this mean that Solomon needed a bigger throne than David's?

Also, how do you know the throne will be on this present earth and not the New Earth?

Alan

[Mickey]

Hi Mickey,

A couple of quick questions. You say the throne is "earthly". Does this mean a physical piece of furniture? What does it mean when it says Solomon's throne should be bigger than David's?

1 King1:37 As the LORD hath been with my lord the king, even so be he with Solomon, and make his throne greater than the throne of my lord king David.Alan,

Sometimes the word "throne" is used in regard to a person's "reign" as king.That is the meaning at 1Kings1:37.Here Benaiah requests that God would be with Solomon and bless his reign even more than He had blessed David's reign.
1King1:47 And moreover the king's servants came to bless our lord king David, saying, God make the name of Solomon better than thy name, and make his throne greater than thy throne. And the king bowed himself upon the bed.

Does this mean that Solomon needed a bigger throne than David's?Again,the meaning is to make Solomon's reign greater than David's reign.
Also, how do you know the throne will be on this present earth and not the New Earth?Here we can see that the nations will come to Jerusalem to "worship" the King:

"And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one….And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain"(Zech.14:9,17).

Those who will not come unto Jerusalem to worship the King will not receive "rain".To me that is in regard to the earth in which we are living now.After all,in the "new earth" there will be "no more sea"(Rev.21:1).

And the reason that these nations will come to Jerusalem to worship the King is because He will be in Jerusalem.The following verse is in reference to the "earthly" Jerusalem:

"It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there"(Ez.48:35).

In Christ,

Mickey

[Terral]

Mickey:
Terral Original >> We cannot place Christ on the throne of David in this world.

Mickey Says >> The "throne of David" is an "earthly" throne. Solomon sat upon that throne, and it was not in heaven. The Apostle Peter referred to the following prophecy on the day of Pentecost:

Mickey’s Quote >> "The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David; He will not turn from it: Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne"(Ps.132:11). "

Mickey's Commentary >> Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, He would raise up Christ to sit on his throne (Acts2:30).
Peter is not making a prophecy here in Acts 2 about Christ sitting physically on David’s Throne here on the earth during any ‘thousand year’ reign. That would contradict the prophecies of Ezekiel (Eze. 34:22-24), Jeremiah (Jer. 30:9), Hosea (Hos. 3:5) and Christ Himself (John 18:36). Peter is here using an OT prophecy by David to prove that one of his Descendants has been raised from the dead to be seated at the right hand of God.
Mickey’s >> So according to the Scriptures it was prophesized that the Lord Jesus will sit upon the throne of David. And that is exactly what Gabriel told Mary:

Mickey’s Quote >> "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest ;and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father, David. And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end"(Lk.1:32,33).

Mickey’s Commentary >> So the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus will indeed sit upon the throne of David, an earthly throne. But Terral says that "we cannot place Christ on the throne of David in this world". Perhaps he wants to place the throne of David in heaven?
No sir. Heaven is Christ’s throne, and the earth is His footstool. Isaiah 66:1, Acts 7:49. The Kingdom of heaven is about the things on earth being ‘as it is’ in heaven.

"Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 'Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.”
All of the OT Prophets place David upon his own throne during the coming restored Kingdom of God on earth. “Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David; Hosanna in the highest!" Mark 11:10.
Terral Original >> Christ told us that His kingdom is not of this world, and not even of this realm. John 18:36.

Mickey >> The Lord Jesus said, "but now My Kingdom is not from here"(Jn.18:36).
No, Christ said, “Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." John 18:36. NASB. Jesus Christ overcame and is at the right hand of God interceding for the saints. Rom. 8:34. His throne is at the right hand of the Father in heaven.

'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”

Mickey >> We can know that His Kingdom will indeed be set up on the earth, and that is because the Lord Jesus told His disciples that He would drink of the "fruit of the vine" with them in the kingdom of God:

"Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God"(MK.14:25). "That ye may eat and drink at My table in My Kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel"(Lk.22:30).
His disciples shall drink it new in the Kingdom of God in heaven.

“And Jesus said to them, "Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things new and old."
Every part of the Lord’s Passover Supper is symbolic of something heavenly above. The ‘old’ is the mere shadow represented by the earthly symbol, while the ‘new’ is the thing above being part of our heavenly inheritance. Paul describes the difference here:

“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day --things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.”
Terral Original >> Our father David will rule from his throne eternally in Jerusalem upon the earth. Eze. 37:24-28.

Quote >> "And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them"(Ez.37:24).

Mickey >> The Israelites would know that the word "David" in this verses refers to the "seed" of David, David’s Greater Son, based on previous prophecies:
No sir. Ezekiel refers to David, and Scripture is clear . . .

“Then I will set over them one shepherd, My servant David, and he will feed them; he will feed them himself and be their shepherd. And I, the LORD, will be their God, and My servant David will be prince among them; I the LORD have spoken. I will make a covenant of peace with them and eliminate harmful beasts from the land so that they may live securely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods.”
Mickey Quotes >> " Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth"( Jer..23:5).
Jeremiah is not contradicting Jeremiah in the same book. What does he prophesy?

'But they shall serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.”
Jesus Christ is seated in ‘My throne’ as I also ‘overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.’ Rev. 3:21. Your theory is that Christ is to ‘descend’ and return (Matt. 24:30) to sit on David’s throne. Jeremiah is showing David being ‘raised up’ to sit on his own earthly throne. No sir. Christ is ruling the entire universe from the right hand of God. He is given the throne of David in the same way Herod’s throne belonged to Caesar in Matthew 2:1-22. Being the King of kings means possessing the throne of every king on this earth. These prophets are saying “David” and not Jesus, or the Lord, or the Messiah or anything vague that requires us to guess his true identity. Ezekiel prophesies of the resurrection here:

“Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.”
What makes you believe that the Lord God will raise up the whole house of Israel, and not keep His promise to raise David to be prince over them? Jesus Christ is at the right hand of God when David is ‘raised up for them.’ Jeremiah 30:9. You are changing the Text to say that Jesus will ‘descend’ to be prince over them. David is the same ‘David’ that all Israel already knows and understands to be their father David. The Lord God is speaking literally of the resurrection, David and his throne.
Mickey Quotes and Says >> " For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever"(Isa.9:6,7).

Mickey >> Surely the Israelites did not think that David is "the Mighty God".
David sits on his own throne on the earth, which belongs to Christ above. That is why David is called ‘prince’ (Eze. 34:24) even though he is king over Israel. We know that this ‘prince’ is David and NOT CHRIST, because of other prophecies Ezekiel makes about this same prince.

"On that day the prince shall provide for himself and all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering.”
Please explain for everybody why our Lord Jesus Christ is providing a ‘sin offering’ for Himself and all the people. Jesus Christ is upon His heavenly throne, while David is simultaneously upon his earthly throne. Mickey is trying to bring Christ down on the earth, as if He never overcame to sit at the right hand of God. Christ ascended to the right hand of God to sit on His Father’s throne, while David is being raised up to sit on his throne upon this earth.
Terral Original >> The book of Hebrews shows Christ taking possession of His throne in Heaven Above at the same time that David (Eze. 34:22-25) takes his throne here on earth.

Mickey >> The Scriptures reveal that is is our "Lord" Who will take His throne here on earth:

Mickey Quotes >> "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one … . And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain"(Zech.14:9,17).
Zechariah is describing the time after Revelation 21:1 in the new heavens and the new earth.

"In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night [ Rev. 21:23 ], but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem [ Rev. 21:6 ], half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter."
Let’s try to focus upon the things that shall come to pass during the ‘evil age’ (Gal. 1:4) during the current heavens and earth. Satan is chained in the pit (Rev. 20:2) during the coming ‘Lord’s day’ (Rev. 1:10), when the things in the Book of Hebrews are fulfilled. Heaven is receiving Christ (Acts 3:20) until the restoration of all things (Acts 3:21) that must occur during ‘this’ age. David rules from his own throne (Eze. 34:22-24) during the restoration of all things under Elijah (Matt. 17:10+11), while Christ is at the right hand of the Father (Rev. 3:21, 7:15-17). He comes back (Matt. 24:30) to judge everybody first (Matt. 25:31-33), before the new day begins in Rev. 21:1.

You say that Christ is coming to sit on David’s throne during a Millennial (1000 years) Kingdom reign on this earth. Your are predicting that this ‘thousand years’ kingdom is going to come to an end. After all, it lasts ONLY a thousand years and not forever. What is the event that causes Christ’s earthly kingdom on this earth to end after that thousand years is over? Please be specific and use Scripture.

In Christ,

Terral

[eschaton]

Alan,

Sometimes the word "throne" is used in regard to a person's "reign" as king.That is the meaning at 1Kings1:37.Here Benaiah requests that God would be with Solomon and bless his reign even more than He had blessed David's reign.
Again,the meaning is to make Solomon's reign greater than David's reign.
Here we can see that the nations will come to Jerusalem to "worship" the King:

"And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one….And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain"(Zech.14:9,17).

Those who will not come unto Jerusalem to worship the King will not receive "rain".To me that is in regard to the earth in which we are living now.After all,in the "new earth" there will be "no more sea"(Rev.21:1).

And the reason that these nations will come to Jerusalem to worship the King is because He will be in Jerusalem.The following verse is in reference to the "earthly" Jerusalem:

"It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there"(Ez.48:35).

In Christ,

Mickey

So throne can sometimes refer to a "reign". Good answer Mickey. I can see the kind of spiritual context that gives certain verses.

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever"(Isa.9:6,7).

So there doesn't have to be a physical chair here, or probably any other of the verses you give. It can be a reign. For that matter there is a Jerusalem in the New Earth. So the throne can be in the New Jerusalem can't it? Isn't the verse from Isaiah above talking about more than the millennium? It doesn't have to be on this earth does it?
Alan

[Mickey]

Mickey:

Peter is not making a prophecy here in Acts 2 about Christ sitting physically on David’s Throne here on the earth during any ‘thousand year’ reign. That would contradict the prophecies of Ezekiel (Eze. 34:22-24), Jeremiah (Jer. 30:9), Hosea (Hos. 3:5) and Christ Himself (John 18:36). Peter is here using an OT prophecy by David to prove that one of his Descendants has been raised from the dead to be seated at the right hand of God.Peter is saying that the Lord Jesus will sit upon the throne of David:

"Therefore,being a prophet,and knowing that God had sworn an oath to him,that of the fruit of his loins,according to the flesh,He would raise up Christ to sit on his throne(Acts2:30).

That is Peter's understanding of the following prophecy:

"The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David;He will not turn from it: Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne"(Ps.132:11).

The Lord tells David that He will set upon David's throne One who is from the fruit of his body.And Peter says that that someone is Christ--He would raise up Christ to sit upon David's throne.

But you say "Peter is here using an OT prophecy by David to prove that one of his Descendants has been raised from the dead to be seated at the right hand of God".

So if you are correct then the "throne of David" must be at the right hand of God.So how did Solomon sit in that throne since he was on earth but yet David's throne was at the right hand of God?

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne"(Rev.3:21).Here we see the Lord Jesus speak about "two thrones".One is His throne and the other is His Father's throne.Those who overcome will sit upon the Son's throne.And we can see that those who will sit at His throne will reign on the earth:

"And hast made us unto our God a kingdom of priests: and we shall reign on the earth"(Rev.5:10).

How can the overcomers be sitting in a heavenly throne but at the same time be "reigning" on the earth?

His disciples shall drink it new in the Kingdom of God in heaven.That could not be right.

At the time when His Apostles will drink of the "fruit of the wine" they will also be judging the twelve tribes of Israel:

"That ye may eat and drink at My table in My Kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel"(Lk.22:30).

That will be in the "regeneration",when the Lord will "sit on the throne of His glory":

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel"(Mt.19:28).

The Lord will sit upon the throne of His glory when He returns to earth:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory"(Mt.25:31).

It is when the Lord returns to earth that He will sit upon the throne of His glory.That is when the Apostles will judge the Twelve Tribes and when He will drink of the "fruit of the vine" with His Apostles.

. Your theory is that Christ is to ‘descend’ and return (Matt. 24:30) to sit on David’s throne.It is not a "theory".He will descend and return.His Apostles asked Him what would be the sign of His "coming"("parousia"—presence) at Matthew 24:3.

He then speaks of His "coming" to earth,and He says that at that time He will "sit upon the throne of His glory":

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory"(Mt.25:31).

According to you we are to believe that He will begin sitting on the throne of His glory in heaven at the same time that He is on earth!

In Christ,

Mickey

[Mickey]

For that matter there is a Jerusalem in the New Earth. So the throne can be in the New Jerusalem can't it? Alan,

The Lord will sit in the throne of His glory when He returns to earth:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory"(Mt.25:31).

These words of the Lord are not describing when He will "come" to the "New Earth" or the "New Jerusalem" which is in heaven.His words are in answer to the signs of His "coming"("parousia"--presence).

At that time He will judge all the nations:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats"(Mt.25:31,32).

He will sit upon the throne of His glory when He returns to earth.He will not sit upon that throne until He returns to earth.And while sitting upon that throne He will judge all nations.

In Christ,

Mickey

[Terral]

Mickey:
Mickey’s quote >> "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats"(Mt.25:31,32).

Mickey’s commentary >> He will sit upon the throne of His glory when He returns to earth. He will not sit upon that throne until He returns to earth. And while sitting upon that throne He will judge all nations.
No sir. Christ sits upon His throne to judge here:

“Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.”
Christ already told you that His Coming (Matt. 24:30) is at the End of the Age (Matt. 24:3). Peter describes the same Judgment at the ‘end of the age’ here:

“But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. . . .But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!”
How do you suppose Christ is going to judge from an earthly throne, when the old earth just passed away? There is no time for Christ to have another ‘thousand years’ reign upon this current earth to fulfill prophecy from our OT. That was already done in the time from Revelation 1:10 (start of Lord’s day) to Revelation 20:10-15 (Judgment). Elijah came to restore all things (Matt. 17:10+11) for the churches of Rev. 1:-3. The remainder of Rev. 4-20 occurs during the same time, but from a heavenly perspective of the final years of this thousand years [ Rev. 20:5 ] ‘day of the Lord.’ The end marks the short time that Satan is loosed, and his beast [ abomination of desolation; Matt. 24:15 ] is given power on the earth to deceive the nations and Israel. Christ comes shortly afterwards to destroy him with the ‘. . . breath of His mouth [ Judgment ] and bring to an end [ Rev. 19:20 ] by the appearance of His coming [ Matt. 24:30 ] . . .” (2Thes. 2:8).

You are confusing a throne of Judgment with a ‘thousand year’ reign upon the earth. Once again: You have Christ on an earthly throne for a 'thousand year' reign. Where do you find that in Scripture? What causes that reign to end? Who or what comes along to de-throne Him? Why is His reign only for 1000 years and not forever? GL.

In Christ,

Terral

[InChristAlways]

You are confusing a throne of Judgment with a ‘thousand year’ reign upon the earth. Once again: You have Christ on an earthly throne for a 'thousand year' reign. Where do you find that in Scripture? What causes that reign to end? Who or what comes along to de-throne Him? Why is His reign only for 1000 years and not forever? GL. Hi Terral. We know when Christ ascended, that he sits at the right hand of God until He makes His enemies His footstool. So who were His and Paul's enemies? It appears it was the jewish rulers of the house of Judah in Jerusalem.

Notice the kingdome was to be taken from the corrupt jewish rulers of the house of Judah, not from the Lost Sheep of the house of Israel!!! Are the jews of today still under the curse of Malachi?

matt 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 "And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder." 45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.

Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already, Because you do not take [it] to heart. [i]3 "Behold, I will rebuke your descendants And spread Dung on your faces, The Dung of your solemn feasts; And [one] will take you away with it.

Jeremiah 23:1 "Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!" says the LORD. 2 Therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: "You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings," says the LORD.

What salvation is Paul talking about here, spiritual or salvation from the corrupt jewish rulers?

romans 13:11 And [do] this, knowing the time, that now high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation [is] nearer than when we [first] believed. [i]12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.

romans 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ with you. Amen.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and [b]those who worship there.

The Sadducees rejected the concept of resurrection, because it was considered of pagan foreign origin. They followed the ancient Jewish beliefs about Sheol as they were before Greek influence modified them. They also did not believe in fate, in demons or in angels. The Sadducees believed that God would reward the righteous and punish the wicked during their lifetime on earth. They were in charge of the Temple and its rituals. They felt that as long as animal sacrifices and other rituals were continued in Jerusalem, that Israel would continue without major disasters. After the Roman army attacked and destroyed the Temple and the rest of Jerusalem in 70 CE, they were bitterly disillusioned. They ceased to exist as a cohesive group shortly afterwards. By the end of the 1st century CE, they had essentially disappeared.

[Mickey]

Terral,

The Scriptures state in no uncertain terms that the Lord will sit upon the throne of His glory when He returns to earth:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats"(Mt.25:31,32).

But since this does not fit your ideas you just deny it.You say:

No sir. Christ sits upon His throne to judge here.How much plainer could the words of the Lord be in regard to when He will sit upon His throne of glory to judge the nations?It will be when He returns—"When the Son of Man shall COME in His glory THEN shall He sit upon the throne of His glory".

You are denying what the Lord Jesus Himself said.The Lord is not speaking of the "Great White Throne" but instead the judgment of the nations which will take place on the earth—"When the Son of Man COMES in His glory."

You just ignore the words in regard to the Lord’s "coming" to the earth to sit on His throne of glory and attempt to make the judgment of the nations into "the Great White Throne",a judgment that does not even happen until the Millennial Kingdom comes to an end.Are we supposed to believe that the "Great White Throne" is the same throne as David’s Throne?

Peter describes the same Judgment at the ‘end of the age’ here:That is just your imagination.Never once does Peter refer to "the end of the age" in the verses you provided.Instead,the Lord Jesus described a judgment that will take place at the "end of the age",and it is indeed in reference to a judgment that will take place upon the earth:

"The field is THE WORLD…The enemy that sowed them is the devil;the harvest is the END OF THE AGE;and the reapers are the angels.As,therefore,the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,so shall it be at the END OF THE AGE"(Mt.13:38-40).

You are confusing a throne of Judgment with a ‘thousand year’ reign upon the earth.You are confusing the "throne of David" with the "Great White Throne".

Once again: You have Christ on an earthly throne for a 'thousand year' reign. Where do you find that in Scripture?The Apostle Peter said that the Lord Jesus will sit in the throne of David,and that throne is an earthly throne.The Apostle John describes a Millennial Kingdom that will be set up on earth (Rev.20:6).During that rien we see those who are resurrected will "be preists of God and of Christ,and shall REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS"(Rev.20:6).

And they will reign with Him a thousand years upon the earth:

"And hath made us unto our God a kingdom of preists,and WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH"(Rev.5:10).

What causes that reign to end? Who or what comes along to de-throne Him? Why is His reign only for 1000 years and not forever?Here is what Paul says in regard to your questions:

"For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet…And when all things shall be subdued unto Him,then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him,that God may be all in all"(1Cor.15:25,28).

In Christ,

Mickey

[Terral]

InChristAlways:
Terral Original >> You are confusing a throne of Judgment with a ‘thousand year’ reign upon the earth. Once again: You have Christ on an earthly throne for a 'thousand year' reign. Where do you find that in Scripture? What causes that reign to end? Who or what comes along to de-throne Him? Why is His reign only for 1000 years and not forever? GL.

InChrist >> We know when Christ ascended, that He sits at the right hand of God until He makes His enemies His footstool. So who were His and Paul's enemies? It appears it was the jewish rulers of the house of Judah in Jerusalem.
That is a far away topic from the ‘Throne of David’ we are discussing, InChrist. Mickey’s hypothesis is that Christ is returning to the earth to sit upon the earthly throne of David to reign for a thousand years. My problem is that Christ’s own testimony is that He sits with His Father on His throne. Rev. 3:21. Then, when Christ returns in glory with His angels (Matt. 24:30), He is seen judging the nations from His glorious throne. Matt. 25:31-33. Christ said that His kingdom is not of this world, or even of this realm. John 18:36. To which Mickey’s contention is that Jesus was saying “now” my Kingdom is not of this realm to Pilate, as if that means “later is shall be.” However, even Hebrews shows Christ seated on a heavenly throne.

“Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.”
This is exactly as Christ says to the churches in Revelations:

"He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"
Does Christ abandon His seat at the right hand of ‘the throne of the Majesty in the heavens’ to return to the earth and rule upon the throne of David for a thousand years? The Book of Revelation does not tell that story, but speaks of Him judging the nations from His Great White Throne at the end of the age (Rev. 20:11-15). Ezekiel shows David upon his own throne in Ezekiel 34:22-24. Then we see eleven uses of the terms ‘desolate’ and ‘desolation,’ until the resurrection of the whole house of Israel in Ezekiel 37:1-12 (11). After that we see David reinstated as prince forever and God’s Sanctuary in their midst under an everlasting covenant. Eze. 37:24-28. David is ruling on the ‘throne of David’ for the thousand years from Ezekiel 34-36. The judgment takes place at the end of the age, and the whole house of Israel is restored in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world.

"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”

In Christ,

Terral

[eschaton]

Alan,

The Lord will sit in the throne of His glory when He returns to earth:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory"(Mt.25:31).

These words of the Lord are not describing when He will "come" to the "New Earth" or the "New Jerusalem" which is in heaven.His words are in answer to the signs of His "coming"("parousia"--presence).

At that time He will judge all the nations:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats"(Mt.25:31,32).

He will sit upon the throne of His glory when He returns to earth.He will not sit upon that throne until He returns to earth.And while sitting upon that throne He will judge all nations.

In Christ,

Mickey

Mickey,

I think you were correct to point out that we aren't talking about furniture here. We are talking about the final judgment, which is what Matthew 25 is talking about.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Ps 9:7

This is when Jesus will come to earth. As you pointed out in Isaiah 9, this is a reign "for ever", not just a temporal 1000 years. Indeed, the New Jerusalem comes to earth:

Rev21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

That is eternal Judgment.

1 Sam 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them.

[InChristAlways]

Here is what Paul says in regard to your questions:

"For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet…And when all things shall be subdued unto Him,then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him,that God may be all in all"(1Cor.15:25,28).
Hi Mickey. So who do you feel was/is Christ's enemies now? Is it apostate christians, atheists, those that believe in God but do not honor Him as God[like the jewish rulers in the first century]? What is your definition of "His enemies"? Revelation appears to concern a country and a Great City with a Temple in it, and that believe in God, so could it be just jews that are condemned in it as shown in chapt 11? The way I view it is that His enemies are ones the believe in Him but break His commandments of Love and by practicing lying, cheating stealing etc. This is like blaspheming Christ whenever a christian who believes in Christ practices these sins in front of others, especially unbelievers. What do you think? God bless.

romans 2:23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.

Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: [some] of them you will kill and crucify, and [some] of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing! 38 "See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 "for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed He who comes in the name of the LORD!' "

[i]romans 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ with you. Amen.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and [b]those who worship there.

The Sadducees rejected the concept of resurrection, because it was considered of pagan foreign origin. They followed the ancient Jewish beliefs about Sheol as they were before Greek influence modified them. They also did not believe in fate, in demons or in angels. The Sadducees believed that God would reward the righteous and punish the wicked during their lifetime on earth. They were in charge of the Temple and its rituals. They felt that as long as animal sacrifices and other rituals were continued in Jerusalem, that Israel would continue without major disasters. After the Roman army attacked and destroyed the Temple and the rest of Jerusalem in 70 CE, they were bitterly disillusioned. They ceased to exist as a cohesive group shortly afterwards. By the end of the 1st century CE, they had essentially disappeared.

[Mickey]

My problem is that Christ’s own testimony is that He sits with His Father on His throne. Rev. 3:21. Then, when Christ returns in glory with His angels (Matt. 24:30), He is seen judging the nations from His glorious throne. Matt. 25:31-33.
Terral,

The Lord Jesus Himself says that it is at the time when He returns to earth that He will sit upon His glorious throne.Not before or after--when He returns to earth:

"When the Son of God shall come in HIs glory,and all the Holy angels with Him,THEN shall He sit upon the throne of His glory"(Mt.25:31).

The word "then" makes it quite certain that He will not sit upon the throne of His glory until He returns to earth.The Lord Jesus could not have made it any plainer,but yet there are those who will not beliueve what He says.
Does Christ abandon His seat at the right hand of ‘the throne of the Majesty in the heavens’ to return to the earth and rule upon the throne of David for a thousand years?
As a matter of fact He does:

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies"(Ps.110:1,2).

Here we see that the Lord Jesus will sit at the right hand of the Father UNTIL the Father makes the Lord Jesus' enemies His footstool.And how is HE going to do this?The Father will "send the Rod of His strength" to rule in the midst of the enemies.

The "Rod of His strength" Who the Father will send back to earth to defeat and rule over His enemies is none other than the One Who sits at His right hand:

"The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries"(Veses 5 & 6).

This is in reference to the great and terrible day of the Lord,when He will return to judge the heathen and then to rule from the throne of His glory.

At another place the Scriptures reveal that it is the King Who will "rule" and who will strike through the kings in the day of His wrath:

"Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth"(Ps.2:8-10).

So yes,the Lord Jesus does leave His position at the right hand of God to come to the earth to bring judgment upon the unbelievers and then to sit on the throne of His glory.

The Apostle John describes a Millennial Kingdom that will be set up on earth (Rev.20:6).During that reign we see those who are resurrected will "be priests of God and of Christ,and shall REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS"(Rev.20:6).

And they will reign with Him a thousand years upon the earth:

"And hath made us unto our God a kingdom of preists,and WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH"(Rev.5:10).

So we see that the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus will not sit upon the "throne of His glory" until He returns to earth to defeat His enemies and then He will judge all the nations.Then the beliievers will "reign with Him a thousand years",and He and His believers "shall reign on the earth".

In Christ,

Mickey

[Mickey]

Hi Mickey. So who do you feel was/is Christ's enemies now? Is it apostate christians, atheists, those that believe in God but do not honor Him as God[like the jewish rulers in the first century]? What is your definition of "His enemies"?InChristAlways,

Before a man possesses true faith he is an "enemy" of God:

"When we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son"(Ro.5:10).

A person remains an "enemy" of God until he enters into the reconciliation by "faith".
The way I view it is that His enemies are ones the believe in Him but break His commandments of Love and by practicing lying, cheating stealing etc. Once a person "believes" he becomes a "son of God".Even though he might sin after this,he still remains a "son".And the Scriptures reveal that the Lord may chasten His sons (Heb.12:5-11),they will never be separated from God's love (Ro.8:35-39).The believer is given "eternal life" in the Son (1Jn.5:11),and the Lord Jesus Christ says that those who have been given eternal life "shall never perish"(Jn.10:28).

In Christ,

Mickey

[InChristAlways]

InChristAlways,

Before a man possesses true faith he is an "enemy" of God:

"When we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son"(Ro.5:10).

A person remains an "enemy" of God until he enters into the reconciliation by "faith".
Once a person "believes" he becomes a "son of God".Even though he might sin after this,he still remains a "son".And the Scriptures reveal that the Lord may chasten His sons (Heb.12:5-11),they will never be separated from God's love (Ro.8:35-39).The believer is given "eternal life" in the Son (1Jn.5:11),and the Lord Jesus Christ says that those who have been given eternal life "shall never perish"(Jn.10:28).

In Christ,

MickeyHI Mickey,
I agree, but remember Israel was God's "firstborn" of the flesh while Christ was firstborn of the spirit.
The jews were suppose to lead others to God and Christ but as we now know, they failed at that miserable and one cannot be of the righteousness that is of Abraham without belief onto Jesus. So God made an example of His firstborn Israel in the first century. That is what I am trying to explain. They became God's sacrifice as they believed in God but did not honor Him as God. Why do you think God and Jesus was admonishing the rulers in Jerusalem so much???? That is why they were called the "satan" of that age. God bless.

Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already, Because you do not take to heart. [i]3 "Behold, I will rebuke your descendants And spread refuse on your faces, The refuse of your solemn feasts; And [one] will take you away with it.

matt 23:32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' [guilt.] 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: [some] of them you will kill and crucify, and [some] of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing! 38 "See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 "for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed He who comes in the name of the LORD!' "

reve 18:[i]23 "The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24 "And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth."

[i]jeremi 7:33 "The corpses of this people will be food for the birds of the heaven and for the beasts of the earth. And no one will frighten [them away.] 34 "Then I will cause to cease from the cities of Judah and from the streets of Jerusalem the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride. For the land shall be desolate.

This also fulfilles ezekiel 39, the great sacrificial meal on the Mountains of Israel.

reve 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all [people,] free and slave, both small and great."

[Mickey]

HI Mickey,
I agree, but remember Israel was God's "firstborn" of the flesh while Christ was firstborn of the spirit.
The jews were suppose to lead others to God and Christ but as we now know, they failed at that miserable and one cannot be of the righteousness that is of Abraham without belief onto Jesus. So God made an example of His firstborn Israel in the first century. That is what I am trying to explain. They became God's sacrifice as they believed in God but did not honor Him as God. Why do you think God and Jesus was admonishing the rulers in Jerusalem so much???? That is why they were called the "satan" of that age. God bless.InChristAlways,

Yes,but none of this proves that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was in regard to the "great tribulation".In fact,at the end of the "great tribulation" the Lord will "defend" the inhabitants of Jerusalem and will destroy all the nations that will come against Jerusalem at that time:

"In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem"(Zech.12:8,9).

That did not happen in AD 70,so the event described as the "great tribulation" remains in the future.Also,we read that MIchael will "stand up" for Israel during the "greact tribulation":

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book"(Dan.12:1).

This did not happen in AD 70,so the "great tribulation" remains in the future.

In Christ,

Mickey

[InChristAlways]

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book"(Dan.12:1).

This did not happen in AD 70,so the "great tribulation" remains in the future.

In Christ,


Hi Mickey,
So you are saying that there is a 2000yr gap in Daniel?

luke 21:21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.


reve 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

dani 9:25 "Know therefore and understand, [That] from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, [There shall be] seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. 26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it [shall be] with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

dan 12: 7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who [was] above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that for a time, times, and half [a time;] and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these [things] shall be finished.

deut 7: [i]6 " For you [are] a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

May I recommend a site for you on the "false prophecies" of Daniel[or even Christ and Paul for that matter] and maybe you can explain to this guy how Daniel wasn't a false prophet.
http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html

quote:
This might explain chapter nine, if you choose to accept such nimble interpretation, but another excuse would have to be cooked up for chapters 10 to 12, for it is self evident that in this source (written in the second century in response to Antiochus IV) the world did not end immediately after Antiochus despoiled Jerusalem and the temple, Michael was not outraged enough to promptly end the world. This 'clock' must have 'stopped ticking' as well, awaiting the awakening and the rise of the 'revived Selucid Greek empire' at which time it will finally be fulfilled. This would, of course, require ending the world twice (once to Revive the Romans and thus salvage chapter 9, and a second go at it to revive the Greeks and salvage chapter 12. Whether or not we can all tolerate suffering through two ends of the world is a good question, but this would be required to salvage the doctrine of 'Biblical inerrancy.'

As a final point I have to ask how, after those early churches embarrassed everyone by reading Daniel in an uncritical way and being gullible about the Bible, and prophecy in particular, you really have to wonder why any other modern church would want to do the same thing, repeat the same mistake, and embarrass themselves in the same way as those early churches did. It turns out that there are certain things you can learn by not taking the Bible literally all the time, and this lesson is certainly one of them.

[Mickey]

Hi Mickey,
So you are saying that there is a 2000yr gap in Daniel? InChristAlways,

The subject is not whether or not there is a gap in Daniel.I provided verses that demonstrate that at the end of the "great tribulation" that the Lord will "defend" the inhabitants of Jerusalem and destroy all the armies that come against Jerusalem.Those prophecies are from Zechariah and not Daniel.

So you conveniently evaded those verses and now you want to talk about a gap in Daniel.There is no gap in regard to the verses from Daniel that I quoted you.They are in regard to the "great tribulation" and they say that at that time Daniel will "stand up" for the people of Israel.

If you wish to debate whether or not "prophetic" time ceased ticking or not first answer the verses I provided that conclusively demonstrate that at the end of the "great tribulation" that the Lord will "defend" the inhabitants of Jerusalem and "destroy" all the armies that will come against Jerusalem.

In Christ,

Mickey

[InChristAlways]

Hi Mickey,
God and Christ didn't come to set up an "earthly" kingdom, but a heavenly one, accessible only through the Blood of Christ, God's Son. There is a spiritual Jerusalem and a physical Jerusalem so just as you have to distinguish between the 2 nations of Judah and Israel, so too you have to distinguish between the heavenly Jerusalem and earthly Jerusalem. How can there be a "new jerusalem" without the "old jerusalem" and temple being destroyed? Aren't we now the temple of God with God dwelling in us?
We are the inhabitants of the "new jerusalem" above as stated in Galatians. One doesn't even have to "spiritualize" the bible to see what God, Christ and Paul are saying.
Here again, if Christ's prophecy wasn't fulfilled in Luke, then something is false somewhere in the bible.

Who was vengeance and wrath to come upon according to the prophecies of the OT and NT? Judah and Jerusalem!

Luke 21: 22 "For these arethe days of vengeance , that [u]all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.

How does one access the jerusalem above? Nothing unholy can enter it up there, so why would it be on earth later?

gala 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar -- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children -- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, [You] who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband."

jeremiah 12:6 "In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place -- Jerusalem.

John 4: 21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 "God Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

How can the dwelling of Jerusalem be Holy if it is on earth?

Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD near in the valley of decision. [i]15 The sun and moon will grow dark, And the stars will diminish their brightness. [i]16 The LORD also will roar from Zion, And utter His voice from Jerusalem; The heavens and earth will shake; But the LORD will be a shelter for His people, And the strength of the children of Israel. 17 "So you shall know that I [am] the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion My holy mountain. Then Jerusalem shall be holy, And no aliens shall ever pass through her again."

jeremiah 2:9 "And it shall come to pass in that day," says the LORD, "[That] the heart of the king shall perish, And the heart of the princes; The priests shall be astonished, And the prophets shall wonder." 10 Then I said, "Ah, Lord GOD! Surely You have greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, Saying, 'You shall have peace,' Whereas the sword reaches to the heart." 11 At that time it will be said To this people and to Jerusalem, "A dry wind of the desolate heights in the wilderness Toward the daughter of My people -- Not to fan or to cleanse -- 12 A wind too strong for these will come for Me; Now I will also speak judgment against them." 13 "Behold, he shall come up like clouds,And his chariots like a whirlwind. His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are plundered!" 14 O Jerusalem, wash your heart from wickedness, That you may be saved. How long shall your evil thoughts lodge within you? 15 For a voice declares from Dan And proclaims affliction from Mount Ephraim: 16 "Make mention to the nations, Yes, proclaim against Jerusalem, [That] watchers come from a far country And raise their voice against the cities of Judah

reve 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."

Hosea 13:7 "So I will be to them like a LION; Like a leopard by the road I will lurk; 8 I will meet them like a bear deprived [of her cubs;] I will tear open their rib cage, And there I will devour them like a LION. The wild beast shall tear them. 9 " O Israel, you are destroyed, But your help from Me.

[b]reve 13: 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like [the feet of] a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a LION. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. .... 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. [i]2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

[Mickey]

Hi Mickey,
God and Christ didn't come to set up an "earthly" kingdom, but a heavenly one, accessible only through the Blood of Christ, God's Son. There is a spiritual Jerusalem and a physical Jerusalem so just as you have to distinguish between the 2 nations of Judah and Israel, so too you have to distinguish between the heavenly Jerusalem[us/saints in Christ] and earthly Jerusalem.InChristAlways,

So are you saying that the following verses are in reference to the "heavenly" Jerusalem?:

"In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem"(Zech.12:8,9).

Are we to believe that there were nations that came against the "heavenly" Jerusalem?Did they sprout wings and fly up to the heavenly Jerusalem.

And are we supposed to believe that the following verse is in regard to the "heavenly Jerusalem"?:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book"(Dan.12:1).
Here again, if Christ's prophecy wasn't fulfilled in Luke, then something is false somewhere in the bible. I never said that they will not be fulfilled.You say that they were fulfilled in AD 70,and I say that their fulfillment remains in the future.

After all,the things which were to be fulfilled include a judgment on "all them that dwell on the face of the whole world"(Lk.21:35).

That surley hasn't been fulfilled.

In Christ,

Mickey

[InChristAlways]

InChristAlways,

So are you saying that the following verses are in reference to the "heavenly" Jerusalem?:

"In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem"(Zech.12:8,9).

Are we to believe that there were nations that came against the "heavenly" Jerusalem?Did they sprout wings and fly up to the heavenly Jerusalem.

And are we supposed to believe that the following verse is in regard to the "heavenly Jerusalem"?:

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book"(Dan.12:1).
I never said that they will not be fulfilled.You say that they were fulfilled in AD 70,and I say that their fulfillment remains in the future.

After all,the things which were to be fulfilled include a judgment on "all them that dwell on the face of the whole world"(Lk.21:35).

That surley hasn't been fulfilled.

In Christ,

MickeyThanks for the reply Mickey. You said "sprout wings", that is funny, but not scriptural brother, unless you are talking about the elect saints back then being led to "safety" to avoid the wraths on Jerusalem.
Anyway, thanks for the dialogue and may we and others continue unto the peace and joy that is of the faith of Jesus. God bless.
http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html
In any case, it is God Himself giving authority to the "10 kings" to destroy the "Harlot" just as He gave authority to the King of Babylon in the OT to destroy Jerusalem the first time. And revelation also has to be about making the house of Judah and house of Israel into ONE under ONE KING, agreed? What a fascinating BOOK!!!!

Jeremi 1:14 Then the LORD said to me: "Out of the north calamity shall break forth On all the inhabitants of the land. 15 For behold, I am calling All the families of the kingdoms of the north(notice the "10 kings" in revelation?)," says the LORD; "They shall come and each one set his throne At the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, Against all its walls all around, And against all the cities of Judah. 16 I will utter My judgments Against them concerning all their wickedness, Because they have forsaken Me, Burned incense to other gods, And worshiped the works of their own hands.

reve 17:12 "The ten horns/kings which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 "These are of one mind/judgement, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 "These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those [who are] with Him [are] called, chosen, and faithful." 15 Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. 16 "And the ten horns/kings which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 "And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

Jeremiah 3:8 "Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel [10 northern scattered tribes] had committed adultery, I had put Her away and given Her a certificate of divorce; yet her Treacherous Sister Judah[2 southern tribes] did not fear, but went and played the Harlot also.

Ezek 37:21 "And say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;
Ezek 37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and they will no longer be divided into two kingdoms.

[Mickey]

Thanks for the reply Mickey. You said "sprout wings", that is funny, but not scriptural brother, unless you are talking about the elect saints back then being led to "safety" to avoid the wraths on Jerusalem.My words about "sprouting" wings were in regard to the Lord destroying all the nations that will come against Jerusalem (Zech.12:9).If this is in regard to the "heavenly" Jerusalem then how can any nation come against that Jerusalem unless they can somehow sprout wings and fly up to that Jerusalem?

In Christ,

Mickey