1 corin 15 and 1000yrs question?

[InChristAlways]

I would like to start a discussion on the 1000yr period in revelation and where it fits into Paul's discourse.
We know that it shows Christ being born and taken up in chapt 12 of revelation, so that is half of Daniel's 70th week. It appears then that revelation is only about the last half week of Daniel, 3 and a half yrs, which is the amount of time shown for the gentiles to trample Israel and Jerusalem[chapt 11 and the beast of the sea/gentiles chapt 13]
Can anyone show me in the bible where a 1000yr period is shown other than revelation? Paul shows Christ the first fruits, then those at His coming, then comes the end, period, nada, nothing after.
Ezekiel 39 shows the final battle of Gog/Magog, then years of cleanup afterwards, so again, where is the thousand years at in scripture?.
It appears revelation chapt 14 is the coming of Christ for the elect, then the final wraths of the wicked, the END. So where is the 1000yr period in here???? I really need help in understanding this. Thanks and God bless.

1 corin 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order:

Christ the firstfruits, reve 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

afterward those [who are] Christ's at His coming.
reve 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

24 Then [comes] the end,
reve 14:17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [i]20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy [that] will be destroyed death.

reve 16: [i]13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [coming] out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, [which] go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

ezekiel 39:13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD. 17 " And as for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, 'Speak to every sort of bird and to every beast of the field: "Assemble yourselves and come; Gather together from all sides to My sacrificial meal Which I am sacrificing for you, A great sacrificial meal on the mountains of Israel,

This 1000yr period has to be just before the elect are gathered in chapt 14 and let loose for the wraths afterward. Reve 9 shows 3 spirits going out to deceive the nations, so symbolically, it is not satan, the beast or false prophet, but the "spirit" of them, the OC system and Jerusalem in the first century as prophecied by God, Christ and the Prophets.

reve 20: 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number as the sand of the sea. [i]9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Revelation 9:1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

This shows the burning city's smoke going up "forever" Is this the symbolic "lake of fire", the city of Jerusalem/babylon?

reve 18:17 'For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.' Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance 18 "and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, 'What [is] like this great city?'

reve 19: 2 "For true and righteous [are] His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants [shed] by her." 3 Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!"

[Terral]

InChrist:
InChrist >> I would like to start a discussion on the 1000yr period in revelation and where it fits into Paul's discourse . . . We know that it shows Christ being born and taken up in chapt 12 of revelation, so that is half of Daniel's 70th week.
Really? How does one make the connection to John’s overview of Israel, Christ and Satan going on in Rev. 12 and connect anything to do with Daniel’s 70th week in verse 5? The entire time of the Four Gospels and Acts 1 takes place inside verse 5, or about 33 years. Everything in your post requires one to swallow a shady interpretation of a very symbolic chapter.
InChrist >> Can anyone show me in the bible where a 1000yr period is shown other than revelation? Paul shows Christ the first fruits, then those at His coming, then comes the end, period, nada, nothing after.
Yes. Peter describes the ‘day of the Lord’ (2Pet. 3:10) in context of one day to the Lord being ‘as a thousand years.’ 2Pet. 3:8. Peter and John (in Revelation) are the only two NT writers to use the phrase, where John uses the phrase “Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10) instead of ‘day of the Lord.’ But, we know that John is describing the ‘day of the Lord,’ because the back half of Revelation shows the events of Peter descriptions of that same day (2Pet. 3:10-12).

“But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men . . . But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!”

“Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.”
John’s ‘Lord’s day’ started back in Revelation 1:10 with the events of Revelation lasting ‘the thousand years’ (Rev. 20:5) and the Judgment of Rev. 20:11-15. All of this is still future, as we know this present heaven and earth are still here.

In Christ,

Terral

[Amazing Rando]

InChrist:

[size=3][font=Georgia] Peter and John (in Revelation) are the only two NT writers to use the phrase, where John uses the phrase “Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10) instead of ‘day of the Lord.’

Not true Terral. Paul refers to the "day of the Lord" several times, depending on the translation you use- 1 Cor 5:5, 2 Cor 1:14, 1 Thess 5:2, 2 Thess 2:2.

[InChristAlways]

Terral:
John’s ‘Lord’s day’ started back in Revelation 1:10 with the events of Revelation lasting ‘the thousand years’ (Rev. 20:5) and the Judgment of Rev. 20:11-15. All of this is still future, as we know this present heaven and earth are still here.
Hi Terral,
So what does the Lord's day mean to you? Could it have been on the day the Lord was taken up and we didn't know about it? How do we know he wasn't taken in the spirit to Patmos["my killing"] twice, once to view revelation and the other for banishment? Just asking as I don't have the answers. God bless.


reve 5: 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

dan 9: 26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it [shall be] with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

[Terral]

Hi InChristAlways:
Terral Original >> John’s ‘Lord’s day’ started back in Revelation 1:10 with the events of Revelation lasting ‘the thousand years’ (Rev. 20:5) and the Judgment of Rev. 20:11-15. All of this is still future, as we know this present heaven and earth are still here.

InChrist >> So what does the Lord's day mean to you?
John is describing being in the Spirit at the instant that the ‘day of the Lord’ begins. We know because of the sounds emanating from directly behind him, which Paul also tied to our gathering when the day of the Lord is ‘at hand.’ 2Thes. 2:2.

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the VOICE of the archangel and with the TRUMPET of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.” 1Thes. 4:16.

“I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a LOUD VOICE like the SOUND of a TRUMPET.” Rev. 1:10.

(1Thes. 4:16) Shout + Voice Archangel + Trumpet = Loud Voice like Sound of Trumpet (Rev. 1:10)
John then begins describing Christ with His brand new body just gathered at the trumpet of 1Thes. 4:16+17, at the moment we put on immortality (1Cor. 15:51-53). The voice of the archangel is Satan being chained to start the ‘thousand years’ (Rev. 20:2). John the begins writing to the seven churches (Rev. 1:19-3:22), which are the seven church phases of the coming restored Kingdom of God on earth.
InChrist >> Could it have been on the day the Lord was taken up and we didn't know about it?
No sir. Christ was taken up back in Acts 1, and has been at the right hand of God interceding for the saints (Rom. 8:34) since that time. We are living in the mystery period where the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) is being built to maturity (Eph. 4:13). Only when we are gathered to Christ (1Thes. 4:17) will the restoration of all things (Matt. 17:10+11) begin. We know that John is describing the “Day of the Lord,” because the events relating to that day are fulfilled here in Revelation.
InChrist >> How do we know he wasn't taken in the spirit to Patmos ["my killing"] twice, once to view revelation and the other for banishment?
John was banished to Patmos, and had the visions of this Revelation while on that island. Where would you like to place the break in Spirit’s revelation of the Book of Revelation to John? This Prophetic Book is not about John, banishment, Patmos or how many times John was taken to see these things. It is about the revelation of these things that Christ gave through the Spirit and John to the churches concerning the fulfillment of everything from Scripture relating to the ‘Day of the Lord’ (Lord’s day; Rev. 1:10).

Please allow me to demonstrate why the Preterist interpretation of Scripture shall inevitably fail:

1. The revelations of this book were written after 70 Ad., and must therefore be future.

2. Christ’s return (Matt. 24:30) at the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3) is for the purpose of Judgment (Matthew 25:31-33), which includes heaven and earth passing away. 2Pet. 3:10-12, Rev. 20:11-15 (11). That simply has not yet occurred, which places Christ’s return as future.

3. Far too much of their argument is based upon the misinterpretation of events relating to Matthew 24. The ‘generation’ to see all those signs is the one who “will not pass away until all these things take place.” Matt. 24:34. Jesus could not have been speaking to the generation living in that day. That is IMPOSSIBLE as He tells you Himself. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” Matt. 24:36. Christ knew the details of ‘what’ would happen very clearly, but did not have a clue as to ‘when.’ All He could do is give all the signs (earthquakes, famines, wars, apostasy, gospel of the kingdom to the whole world, abomination of desolation, etc.). The generation to see all these signs will not pass away, before they see My coming and the end of the age (Matt. 24:3).

4. The Preterist interpretation says that God fulfilled all of His promises to Israel by destroying Jerusalem in 70 Ad. That is not saying much for God Almighty and the promises He made to His ‘holy nation’ (Exodus 19:6, 1Pet. 2:9) and ‘chosen race.’ 1Pet. 2:9.

5. Far too much of OT and NT Prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. Ezekiel 34:22-25, 37:1-28 (resurrection vs. 11), 47+48 (kingdom), Matt. 17:10+11 (restore all things), Acts 3:21-26 (restore all things), Acts 15:16-18 (restore tabernacle of David), Rom. 11:25-28 (all Israel saved), etc., etc..

In Christ,

Terral

[Ted]

InChristAlways,

You ask
Can anyone show me in the bible where a 1000yr period is shown other than revelation?
This is a very perceptive question. I have seen a lot of posts alleging one item or another as occurring within the millennium, but without sufficient foundation. Perhaps I can add some fuel to this fire.

First, there is only one place in scripture that explicitly identifies a millennium. That is Revelation 20. If we compare chapters 18 & 19 to 20, there are a host of parallels, many noted in Gregory Beale’s commentary. Thus, I believe that it is proper to identify all three chapters as happening during the millennium.

As we move away from Revelation, we have a real problem. The idea that Ezekiel’s temple (Ezek 40-47) is during a millennium on earth has serious problems. The first is that this does not happen at any stated time, but is a vision. Further, there is no command to build the temple, but rather it’s plan is to be a spur to repentance. And its assertion reflects a key problem in critical thought. No one I know proposing a millennial temple ever looks at the explicit characteristics of the millennium in Revelation 20 and then compares those to the circumstances of other passages.

The millennium is explicitly a time when Satan is unable to deceive “the nations.” In Revelation, “the nations” (as in all Jewish thought) are the wicked people around God’s people. Thus, we have to find a period where Satan is unable to deceive. Your observation about Gog/Magog is closer than you think. Ezekiel 37:4-7 describes a period where Gog has “hooks in his jaws.” This metaphor describes a fish on a line, unable to swim away. When Gog is so restrained, he is unable to marshall his armies. But in verse 8 we see that “after many days you will be summoned.” Following this summoning, Gog will assemble his armies against those who have been brought out from among the nations. (Can a better description of the saints be made?) Gog then assaults the saints, and (vv. 18ff) God protects them, destroying the attackers. This is a near-perfect parallel to the attack on the camp of the saints seen in Revelation 20:7ff. In this example, the millennium is the time when Gog has “hooks in his jaws.”

In order to examine other passages that are purported to be millennial, we have to look at the parousia. In Matt 24:36-42, we see Jesus explicitly saying that when He returns for His saints, he will kill all the wicked. In John 14:1-3, we see Jesus saying that when He returns for His saints, He will take them to heaven. Combining these two, we see that at the parousia, Jesus returns for His saints, destroys the wicked, and departs for heaven, leaving no one alive on earth but Satan and his minions. The earth is an abyss, the word used in the Septuagint for the state of the earth before creation in Genesis 1:2. Using this foundation, any passage presented as millennial can be examined.

When you look at 1 Cor 15, the millennium is not discussed per se. That’s because it isn’t directly part of Paul’s concern. He is speaking of the hope of the Christian, which is the resurrection. That happens at the parousia. When he gets to “the last enemy that will be destroyed is death” (1 Cor 15:26), he is speaking of the end of the millennium, and the Great White Throne. But because his emphasis is resurrection as contrasted with death, he doesn’t dwell on those details.

BTW, when you see “smoke rises forever and ever,” remember that it is a visual on the smoke. It isn’t discussing how long the fire burns. It simply means that the fire is so big that the smoke rises out of sight. And the destruction of the harlot is the penalty for adultery committed by the daughter of a priest (Lev 21:9).

Terral;

You say Really? How does one make the connection to John’s overview of Israel, Christ and Satan going on in Rev. 12 and connect anything to do with Daniel’s 70th week in verse 5? The entire time of the Four Gospels and Acts 1 takes place inside verse 5, or about 33 years. Everything in your post requires one to swallow a shady interpretation of a very symbolic chapter.
After all our disagreements, I must surprise you. You’re dead on here. But when you get to Yes. Peter describes the ‘day of the Lord’ (2Pet. 3:10) in context of one day to the Lord being ‘as a thousand years.’ 2Pet. 3:8. you commit a serious error.
2 Peter 3:8-10 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
That passage doesn’t say anything about the Day of the Lord lasting a thousand years. The day = 1,ooo years = day bit is speaking about how long it is taking to get to the Day of the Lord. All Peter is saying is that God doesn’t see time the way we do. He is not equating a day with a thousand years at all. Of course, if that were true, we would still have 68,000 years to go until the Messiah is due according to Daniel 9.

John’s ‘Lord’s day’ started back in Revelation 1:10
That’s incorrect. There is only one other biblical use of “Lord’s” (kuriakee’), and that is in 1 Cor 11:20, speaking of the Lord’s Supper. There is only one extant contemporary use of the term “Lord’s Day,” and that is in section 14 of the Didache’. There it is speaking of the day on which the Lord’s Supper was eaten. We know historically that that was Passover. Since the motif of Revelation is deliverance from Egypt, and the Passover initiated the exodus, it is quite clear that John is making a link here, and “the Lord’s Day” is Passover.

Your comments about the Preterists are generally well stated and well considered. I would not be so dogmatic about the date of Revelation, although a late date dooms their view completely. I find the argument about the date interesting, but in the end completely irrelevant to the interpretation of the book. Their local interpretation simply ignores the universal scope of New Testament prophecy.

Ted

[InChristAlways]

That’s incorrect. There is only one other biblical use of “Lord’s” (kuriakee’), and that is in 1 Cor 11:20, speaking of the Lord’s Supper. There is only one extant contemporary use of the term “Lord’s Day,” and that is in section 14 of the Didache’. There it is speaking of the day on which the Lord’s Supper was eaten. We know historically that that was Passover. Since the motif of Revelation is deliverance from Egypt, and the Passover initiated the exodus, it is quite clear that John is making a link here, and “the Lord’s Day” is Passover. Interesting you should mention the Passover as according to Josephus, that is the time Titus came upon Jerusalem.
Whether one wants to believe Josephus is reliable or not is up to them, but without his "testimony", we would have no way at all to know what was happening during the event when God sent the roman army into Israel and Jerusalem. Can I ask if anyone know whether that "5 month" of the actuall wraths in revelation is in addition to the 42 months of "tribulations" or included in it, that is what I am trying to work on, so any views would be appreciated. Thanks and God bless.

http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah ! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." On the appearance of the Roman army, the factious Jews united, and, rushing furiously out of the city repulsed the tenth legion... Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. reve 9:5 And they were not given [authority] to kill them, but to torment them [for] five months. Their torment [was] like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.
reve 14:19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [i]20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by the smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it. 'Intimidated by this menace, she immediately produced the remains of her son, which petrified them with horror.

This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A.D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took a survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?"

[Mickey]

Interesting you should mention the Passover as according to Josephus, that is the time Titus came upon Jerusalem.
Whether one wants to believe Josephus is reliable or not is up to them, but without his "testimony", we would have no way at all to know what was happening during the event when God sent the roman army into Israel and Jerusalem. Can I ask if anyone know whether that "5 month" of the actuall wraths in revelation is in addition to the 42 months of "tribulations" or included in it, that is what I am trying to work on, so any views would be appreciated. Thanks and God bless.InChristAlways,

The "5 months" are in regard to a period of time that follows the "great tribulation".These events are in regard to all the unrighteous living on the face of the earth.Here is description of those who know of the coming wrath of the Lamb:

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb"(Rev.6:14-16).

This "wrath" will be directed against all them who "worship the beast".First we see that those who will worship the beast will be from all over the world:

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"(Rev.13:7,8).

Next we see that the Lord's wrath will be against those who worship the beast:

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb"(Rev.14:9,10).

And the following verses demonstrate that this wrath will be upon all the unbelievers throughtout the world,and it will be "upon the earth":

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image"(Rev.16:1,2).

These events have not yet happened.And since these events are to follow the "great tribulation" then it is evident that the "great tribulation" also remains in the future.

In Christ,

Mickey

[InChristAlways]

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image"(Rev.16:1,2).

These events have not yet happened.And since these events are to follow the "great tribulation" then it is evident that the "great tribulation" also remains in the future.
In Christ
Ok. So you are saying Israel didn't go thru great tribulations and Jerusalem didn't have wraths poured out on it in the first century? Remember, there is a beast coming up out of the earth[harlot] and one coming out of the sea[gentiles]
So when Jesus said that all things written would be fulfilled on the destruction of Jerusalem, that wouldn't include revelation, but just all the OT prophecies up to that time, because revelation hadn't been "written" yet, correct? God bless.

21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

reve 17:16 "And the ten horns/kings (from the "beast of the sea") which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot [from the beast of the "earth"], make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind,

Jeremi 1:14 Then the LORD said to me: "Out of the north calamity shall break forth On all the inhabitants of the land. 15 For behold,I am calling All the families of the kingdoms ofthe north," says the LORD; "They shall come and each one set his throne At the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, Against all its walls all around, And against all the cities of Judah. 16 I will utter My judgments Against them concerning all their wickedness, Because they have forsaken Me, Burned incense to other gods, And worshiped the works of their own hands.

[Ted]

InChristAlways,

Josephus may exaggerate a bit, but his basic history is probably reliable. The Passover connection is interesting.

As for linking the 5 months of the fifth Trumpet (Rev 9:5) to the 42 months of 11:2-3, I wouldn’t. There’s no linkage, either verbal or sequential, in the text. Any linkage you might consider will be pure speculation, and really shouldn’t be part of serious Bible study. Most serious commentators note that the demonic horde in the first Woe are called locusts, and the locust season is about 5 months long. They take that to indicate that God still limits the time that Satan’s minions can work. This would fit with the language of Matthew 24:22. (Of course, that study is another subject.)

Please don’t try to link Revelation 14:19 with the fall of Jerusalem. The blood in Revelation is “outside the city” but the bloodbath in AD70 was “inside” the city.

I won’t try to debunk the Dispensational approach to Revelation here. It would take a book (and I’m busy writing it). But in short, the Dispy approach completely ignores the symbolic nature of the book as defined in Rev 1:1. It also ignores the fact that it is a Jewish apocalypse, and to understand it you have to understand that literary genre. Further, Revelation is saturated with the Old Testament. Dispy “interpretation” of Revelation typically ignores the Old Testament.

When you have saturated yourself with the Old Testament cultus, you will be able to understand Revelation. Until then, you probably would be better off ignoring it.

Ted

[Mickey]

But in short, the Dispy approach completely ignores the symbolic nature of the book as defined in Rev 1:1.Ted,

What you say is so typical of the approach that must be taken by the preterists.After all,the Revelation clearly teaches a world wide judgment upon unbelievers.But since that does not fit the events that occured in AD 70 then these things cannot be taken "literally" but instead they must be spiritualized away.

After all,the following words do not match the preterist view,so they must somehow be explained away by the preterists:

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"(Rev.13:7,8).

Next we see that the Lord's wrath will be against those who worship the beast:

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb"(Rev.14:9,10).

And the following verses demonstrate that this wrath will be upon all the unbelievers throughtout the world,and it will be "upon the earth":

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image"(Rev.16:1,2).

But since these events do not confirm to the teaching of the preterists they must somehow be changed to mean something else.The preterists must also change the very words of the Lord Jesus Himself,and that is because He also makes it plain that the events surrounding the "great tribulation" will also be in regard to a world wide judgment.He spoke of a judgment that will "come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth"(Lk.21:35).
It also ignores the fact that it is a Jewish apocalypse, and to understand it you have to understand that literary genre. The preterists must ignore the very words of the Lord Jesus and of John to imagine that the events surrounding the "great tribulation" are only in regard to Israel.

In Christ,

Mickey

[John Reece]

. . .

When you have saturated yourself with the Old Testament cultus, you will be able to understand Revelation. Until then, you probably would be better off ignoring it.

Ted

Excellent advice.

In the Introduction to his two volume Commentary on the Apocalypse (published in London in 1845), Moses Stuart wrote this:


I am aware that such as have become attached to the methods of interpreting the Apocalypse that are most current in the English and American churches, will probably, at least at first view, disagree with some of my results. I will not find fault with them for this; but they will allow me to entreat them to have patience with me, and not to decide at once on difficult points, but to make the book of Revelation a subject of repeated study. My own views, I mean such as I once had, have been changed by such a course. When I began my official duties in my present station [Professor of Sacred Literature in the Theological Seminary at Andover, Mass. –JR], I had no other knowledge of the book, than what the reading of Bishop Newton on the Prophecies, and of others who were of like cast, had imparted to me. The Classes of Pupils under my instruction soon began to importune me to give them some information respecting the Apocalypse. I commenced the study of it, with a design to comply with their request. I soon found myself, however, in pursuing the way of regular interpretation as applied to other books of Scripture, completely hedged in; and I felt at the same time that to pursue my former method of interpreting the book, would cast me inevitably upon the boundless ocean of mere conjectural exposition. I frankly told my Pupils, therefore, that I could not attempt to lecture upon it. After still further examinations, I came to a resolution, not to attempt the exegesis of the Apocalypse, until a period of ten years had elapsed, which should be devoted, so far as my other duties would permit, to a study of the Hebrew prophets. I kept my resolution.

[Mickey]

In other words,just ignore the Revelation until you have mastered the technique of "spiritualizing" away any verses that do not fit the ideas invented by the preterists.Until you can somehow reach a point in your devolpment where you can "spiritualize" away the following words of Jesus Christ in His Olivet Discourse then you have no business even attempting to understand the Revelation:

"For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth"(Lk.21:35).

The same can be said in regard to the events that will happen at the "end of the age".The Olivet Discourse was the Lord's answer in regard to the events that will happen at the "end of the age"(Mt.24:3).

Earlier in His parable of the tares of the field He said:

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age"(Mt.13:37-40).

Despite the fact that the Lord declares in no uncertain terms that the judgment will be in regard to the "world" and not just to "Israel" the preterists must somehow "spiritualize" away His words.And until a person who follows the ideas of the preterists masters the skills to "spiritualize" away the words of the Lord Jesus they should stay away from the Revelation.

In Christ,

Mickey

[InChristAlways]

Despite the fact that the Lord declares in no uncertain terms that the judgment will be in regard to the "world" and not just to "Israel" the preterists must somehow "spiritualize" away His words.And until a person who follows the ideas of the preterists masters the skills to "spiritualize" away the words of the Lord Jesus they should stay away from the Revelation. Hi Mick,
I agree, more should stay away from revelation until they have read and studied the bible and also have translated revelation correctly.
Our interpretations are much different than the "literalists" non preterist literalizing the Truth away in scripture. If it makes you happy to know that vengeance and wrath is coming on Israel again, even after the first century wraths and vengeance, then I suppose you can believe that way.
Fortunately more "spirit" led christians are started to see the Truth of not only what revelation is presenting, but also how much more clearer the bible becomes because of it.
We will let you know when our commentary is ready and trust me, it will not be "spiritualized" or "literalized" but will use only scripture with the correct translation of the greek/hebrew. God bless.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

luke 21: 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

reve 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,

jerem 7:33 "The corpses of this people will be food for the birds of the heaven and for the beasts of the earth. And no one will frighten [them away.] 34 "Then I will cause to cease from the cities of Judah and from the streets of Jerusalem the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride. For the land shall be desolate.

reve 18:23 "The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24 "And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth."

matt 23:35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!

[Mickey]

Our interpretations are much different than the "literalists" non preterist literalizing the Truth away in scripture.InChristAlways,

I will give you an example of just how far the preterists will go in order to "spiritualize" away truths that do not fit in their eschatology.Take the following two verses that are in reference to "great tribulation":

"Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle...And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem"(Zech.14:3;12:9).

Since this obviously did not happen in AD 70,these words must be "spiritualized" away.

The preterists say that the decline of the Roman Empire dates from the fall of Jerusalem.Thomas Scott says:

"It is also observable, that the Romans after having been thus made the executioners of divine vengeance on the Jewish nation, never prospered as they had done before; but the Lord evidently fought against them, and all the nations which composed their overgrown empire; till at last it was subverted, and their fairest cities and provinces were ravaged by barbarous invaders"(Scott, The Holy Bible, etc., 956.).

So we are suppose to believe that the words in the Scriptures that declare that the Lord will "destroy" all the nations that come against Jerusalem is in regard to the Roman Empire "never prospered as they had before" and because of this that Empire was ravaged by barbarous invaders!

It is evident that the reference is to the "earthly" Jerusalem:

"In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem"(Zech.12:8,9).

Even though Thomas Scott admits that these verses are in regard to the "earthly" Jerusalem,he never explains exactly how the Lord "defended the inhabitants of Jerusalem" in AD 70.What could he say?In AD 70 there were no "inhabitants" of Jerusalem who were "defended".

The interpretation that the preterists must place on these verses no longer resemble what was originally said.In fact,their interpretations make a mockery of the Holy Scriptures.

In Christ,

Mickey

[InChristAlways]

Even though Thomas Scott admits that these verses are in regard to the "earthly" Jerusalem,he never explains exactly how the LOrd "defended the inhabitants of Jerusalem" in AD 70.What could he say?In AD 70 there were no "inhabitants" of Jerusalem who were "defended".

The interpretation that the preterists must place on these verses no longer resemble what was originally said.In fact,their interpretations make a mockery of the Holy Scriptures.
Well Mickey, all I can say is put any verse in the bible and put it below this passage in Luke 21 then harmonize the bible with it and you will better understand the rest of the bible, including revelation. Jesus appears to make it clear to those of His people and chosen ones that all things written would be fulfilled upon the destruction of Jerusalem, so those of us who believe Jesus must have been telling the Truth here, put scripture under this verse to find out how it was fulfilled. Not really that hard to do if you are after the Truth. There appear to be a lot of "zionists" that would love to discredit Jesus in the bible and thus mock the bible.
Let me ask you this, do you believe that the Israel of today has a "seperate program"?. If so, then you will never understand the holy scriptures, especially if you don't distinguish between the 2 nations of Judah and Israel. The only true "jew" of today are those in Christ, period. If you want to know the part of Israel that was blinded, just read matther 23 closely and the reason most of Israel remains blinded is because of their intentional misinterpreting of scripture to show Christ was not the True Messiah. God bless.

Luke 21:21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.

romans 9: [i]20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed "Why have you made me like this?" [i]21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 [What] if God, wanting to show [His] wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [even] us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

[Mickey]

Well Mickey, all I can say is put any verse in the bible and put it below this passage in Luke 21 then harmonize the bible with it and you will better understand the rest of the bible, including revelation.InChristAlways,

If anyone's understanding of the Revelation is dependent on the interpretation of the verses in Zechariah given by Thomas Scott then all I can say is that they will believe anything,no matter how ridiculous.In order to say that a verse that speaks of the "defense" of the inhabitants of Jerusalem is in regard to the total destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 one must throw their reason to the wind.

And the preterists prove over and over that they are willing to do just that so that they can cling to their false ideas.

In Christ,

Mickey

[InChristAlways]

InChristAlways,

If anyone's understanding of the Revelation is dependent on the interpretation of the verses in Zechariah given by Thomas Scott then all I can say is that they will believe anything,no matter how ridiculous.In order to say that a verse that speaks of the "defense" of the inhabitants of Jerusalem is in regard to the total destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 one must throw their reason to the wind.

And the preterists prove over and over that they are willing to do just that so that they can cling to their false ideas.

In Christ,

MickeyWe say the same thing about dispensationlists and their "false" doctrine. But thank God that doctrine is going the way of the DoDo Bird as more spirit led christians are delving into God's words and looking for the Truth in it, as dispensationlism has caused more confusion on the bible than any other doctrine I know of. Hard to believe the spirit of God/Christ would cause such confusion in the Bible, but there is no confusion in the Bible as far as I can see so far. May the spirit continue to strengthen all of those in Christ. God bless.

Luke 21:21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread/trample the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

1 corin 2: 10 But God has revealed [them] to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them,] because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is [rightly] judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

[Mickey]

We say the same thing about dispensationlists and their "false" doctrine. But thank God that doctrine is going the way of the DoDo Bird as more spirit led christians are delving into God's words and looking for the Truth in it, as dispensationlism has caused more confusion on the bible than any other doctrine I know of. Hard to believe the spirit of God/Christ would cause such confusion in the Bible, but there is no confusion in the Bible as far as I can see so far. May the spirit continue to strengthen all of those in Christ. God bless.InChristAlways,

The confusion that has come about is caused by the same old lie of Satan in the garden of Eden.Even though the Lord told Eve that she would die if she ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,Satan told her that she really did not understand what the Lord had said:

"And the serpent said unto the woman,Ye shall not surely die"(Gen.3:4).

Eve put the interpretation of God's words given by Satan over what the Lord actually said.She then ate of that tree and in that day she died spiritually.

Today the preterists do the same thing.They insist that man believe their "spiritualized" interpretation of God's words instead of what the Lord actually said.And that,my friend,is what leads to the "confusion" that is seen in the church today.

In Christ,

Mickey

[InChristAlways]

Today the preterists do the same thing.They insist that man believe their "spiritualized" interpretation of God's words instead of what the Lord actually said.And that,my friend,is what leads to the "confusion" that is seen in the church today. Sure Mickey. Whatever you say brother, but I thank God that I read the bible through twice before I read any other books or even went to church or else I would be "trapped" in that same doctrine as you are and thus never would have seen the truth of God's words.
I see you will never change your view and I know I will never change mine, as it was God Himself who led me to the Truth of His Words and not others, and that Truth has indeed set me FREE!! Praise Jesus!!!
So I guess you can continue in your beliefs my friend, but I myself will help newer christians to see not only the Truth, but give them a bible to read and tell them to read it through first one time before even going to church. I don't want them to miss out on on the devineness and spirituality of that great God inspired Book. BTW, Paul in corinthinans 1 says we are allowed to "spiritualize" the spiritual and since the Bible was inspired by God Himself and God is spirit, I assume we must also read the Bible in the "Spirit"[too many christians appear to want to get knowledge thru other books and people instead of Scripture itself].:wink: God bless.

Jeremi 1:14 Then the LORD said to me: "Out of the north calamity shall break forth On all the inhabitants of the land. 15 For behold,I am calling All the families of the kingdoms of the north [ notice the "10 kings" in revelation]," says the LORD; "They shall come and each one set his throne At the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, Against all its walls all around, And against all the cities of Judah. 16 I will utter My judgments Against them concerning all their wickedness, Because they have forsaken Me, Burned incense to other gods, And worshiped the works of their own hands.

16 "And the ten horns/Kings which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind,

Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, [i]2 While their children remember Their altars and their wooden images By the green trees on the high hills. 3 O My mountain in the field, I will give as plunder your wealth, all your treasures, [And] your high places of sin within all your borders. 4 And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."

10 But God has revealed [them] to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them,] because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is [rightly] judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

[Ted]

Mickey,

What you say is so typical of the approach that must be taken by the preterists.After all,the Revelation clearly teaches a world wide judgment upon unbelievers.But since that does not fit the events that occured in AD 70 then these things cannot be taken "literally" but instead they must be spiritualized away.
Be careful. I’m not a Preterist. Just ask DeeDee! I actually agree with your comment here. BTW, the rest of your post argues against a view I don’t hold, so I won’t deal with it.

In other words,just ignore the Revelation until you have mastered the technique of "spiritualizing" away any verses that do not fit the ideas invented by the preterists.
No. The problem is that Revelation is defined BY GOD as symbolic. The word commonly translated “communicated” in Rev 1:1 is semaino from sema, the word for signs. It literally means, “communicated by means of symbols or signs.”

The symbols in Revelation are almost exclusively taken from the OT prophets. So to understand the symbols, you have to understand their sources. If you don’t there is no polite description for what you are doing if you try to interpret them.

InChristAlways,
Luke 21:22, Rev 19:17, Jer 7:33-34, Rev 18:23, Matt 23:35. That’s a nice collection of Day of the Lord passages.

Ted

[InChristAlways]

Hi Terral.
Because I and others cannot will give our views on the 1000yr period or "first resurrection" at the 1000yrs, I can only say that God in so many ways tells us that revelation is when He glorified Himself to His people in the first century.
Another words, those studying revelation in the spirit need to either say it is all a first century event, or none of it is as revelation chapt 14 shows the "reaping" of the elect which appears to resemble or might symbolize the "first resurrection", then comes the wraths, which would have to be the great white throne judgement of the "standing dead".
Ezekiel 39 shows the day God glorifies Himeself, and that would have to be what all of revelation is about and ezekiel does not show a 1000yr period or destruction of the "world", but a "cleansing of the land". So does the new jerusalem come down before or after the "cleansing"? So many questions and contradictions. God bless.

reve 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [coming] out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, [which] go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

reve 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all [people,] free and slave, both small and great."

ezekiel 39:9 " Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the javelins and spears; and they will make fires with them for seven years. 12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD. 17 " And as for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, 'Speak to every sort of bird and to every beast of the field: "Assemble yourselves and come; Gather together from all sides to My sacrificial meal Which I am sacrificing for you, A great sacrificial meal on the mountains of Israel, That you may eat flesh and drink blood.

[endy]

Wonderful explanations by InChristAlways. I am excited since everything was related to scripture.

[Ted]

Ezekiel 39 shows the day God glorifies Himeself, and that would have to be what all of revelation is about and ezekiel does not show a 1000yr period or destruction of the "world", but a "cleansing of the land". So does the new jerusalem come down before or after the "cleansing"? So many questions and contradictions. God bless.

Let’s consider that. If you wish to add “explicitly,” then nobody speaks of a 1,000 year period except John in Revelation 20. But if you look for similar characteristics, you can find such a period. For example, in Ezekiel 38-39 we see a symbolic depiction of Satan. In verse 4 God says, “I will put hooks in your jaws.” Let yourself see the picture. This is a fish on the line. It can’t do anything the fisherman won’t allow. It is stuck.

Now look at verse 8. “After many days” Gog will be summoned. Then he will take armies into “a land that has been restored from the sword.” He will attack peaceful people. Now let your mind wander. Where else have you seen this picture?

Look at Revelation 20. Satan will be locked in the abyss, unable to tempt. Doesn’t that seem like “hooks in his jaws?” Then after 1,000 years (many days!) Satan is released/summoned. He leads the armies of the resurrected wicked against the peaceful “camp of the saints.”

Do you see the parallel? Hebrew prophecy is very visual. The visuals of the two prophecies have a LOT in common. I believe that they are telling the same story.

Another words, those studying revelation in the spirit need to either say it is all a first century event, or none of it is as revelation chapt 14 shows the "reaping" of the elect which appears to resemble or might symbolize the "first resurrection", then comes the wraths, which would have to be the great white throne judgement of the "standing dead".
Don’t get so much exercise jumping to conclusions. I see Revelation including first century events (the first Trumpet), but generally looking forward. The reaping in Rev 14 is a recapitulation of the seventh Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl, which are all both the Day of Atonement and the Day of the Lord. On the Day of Atonement, the saints are all clean, and can be the harvest of which Christ is the FirstFruits, and on the Day of the Lord the wicked are destroyed.

Remember that chapters 4-22 are classic Jewish apocalyptic. That means that they have numerous recapitulations. I show them at http://www.bibleonly.org/proph/rev/macro.html.

In His Service,
Ted

[InChristAlways]

No Post. Sorry.