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Mercury
December 22nd 2004, 11:28 PM
I've posted this on another forum but I'd be interested in getting some (hopefully constructive) criticism from the people here. It's an attempt at explaining the way I interpret the first chapters of Genesis.

The Bible contains descriptions of many things we can't comprehend -- things that are beyond human experience. To explain the unexplainable, Scripture tends to use many pictures, none of which are complete, but each of which explains certain things.

For instance, the Bible gives many pictures of God. Here's some of them:

God is Spirit (John 4:24; Psalm 139:7-10).
God is invisible (Col. 1:15; 1 John 4:12).
God is not a man (Num. 23:19; Hos. 11:9).
God is a consuming fire (Deut. 4:24).
God is the spring of living waters (Jer. 2:13).
God is our shepherd (Psalm 23).
God is a warrior (Ex. 15:2-3).
God is a protective mother bird (Psalm 91:4).
If we take any one of these too seriously while excluding others, it can warp our image of God. If we focus on the first three, we may think of God as more of a "force" or a diffused gas than a personal being. Each of the remaining pictures stress certain aspects of God's character that the more technical descriptions don't get across. We don't get the best picture of God by literally combining all the pictures -- that only leads to nonsense -- but instead by combining the characteristics that underlie each picture.

As another example, Jesus uses three parables to explain why he has come to seek and to save the lost. Luke 15 contains the parables of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the lost (or prodigal) son. None of the pictures is totally accurate by themselves (for instance, God can be in more than one place at a time, unlike the shepherd who needs to leave his 99 sheep to go after the lost one) but put together they paint a more complete and accurate picture.

Finally, getting to the point, Genesis 1:1-2:3 and 2:4-25 give two stories of the creation of the world. Trying to merge the two into one literal account is as ridiculous as trying to merge the parables of the lost sheep, coin and son into a single story, or of merging the descriptions of God as fire, spring, shepherd, warrior, and bird into a single figure. The two creation accounts are not contradictory, but rather they give different halves of a whole. If the two halves could neatly fit together into a single historical story, there would have been no reason to present them separately in the first place.

The first account starts with primordial waters overwhelming an earth that is "formless and void" (Gen. 1:1-2) while the second starts with primordial ground that saw no rain (Gen. 2:4-5). The first puts man's creation at the end while the second has man created first before the plants have grown or animals have been formed (unless you read it from the NIV, which tries to smooth over the difference with the animals; this is clearer in more word-for-word translations such as the NASB, KJV, NKJV or ESV). In the first God tells the humans to rule over the other creatures and subdue the earth; in the second man is placed in the garden to "work it and take care of it". The first portrays God creating mainly by speaking; the second has God forming Adam from dust and breathing life into him. Similarly, the first portrays God (Elohim, the Hebrew generic name for God) as above his creation while in the second God (Jahweh, the Hebrew personal name for God) walks in the garden with Adam and Eve.

Many people explain away these differences by taking one account or the other as less literal. Generally, the first account is taken as authoritative and the second is just used to add further detail to the sixth day. When there's an apparent contradiction (such as the plants already existing by this time in the first account but not being there in the second), the first chapter is taken literally and the second is adjusted to fit.

My approach is to take both accounts as two sides of a coin. Either account would lead to misinterpretations if the other is excluded from consideration. For instance, the first account stresses God's transcendence, while the second stresses God's immanence. The first shows God's sovereignty as creation takes place in highly ordered and structured days, while the second focuses on God's providence, with things being created in response to needs (man to till the ground, woman as a helper for man). The first stresses how humanity is created in God's image with dominion over the earth, while the second stresses that we came from dust and have an duty to take care of the world. Industrialists may prefer the first account while environmentalists prefer the second, but by taking both together we find balance.

It is not a matter of contradiction. Most of the differences are so plainly obvious that it is the height of arrogance to think we've only noticed them now. They were as evident when the accounts were compiled together as they are now. They are presented side by side, which is a pretty good clue that the writer of Genesis wasn't disturbed by their differences. Consider two proverbs in the Bible that are often given on Bible contradiction web sites: "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself" and "Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes". What the contradiction web sites try to minimize is where the proverbs are found: Proverbs 26:4-5 -- in other words, they are back to back! Obviously the compiler of Proverbs was well aware that these two proverbs gave different advice for a similar situation, and yet under divine inspiration he had no problem including them both. This was not a flaw he overlooked or some secret that was only discovered by later generations; the proverbs are two sides of the same coin, and so they were placed side by side. There are times when each is relevant, and it is better to keep both in mind than to always use one to the exclusion of the other.

There are other times when the Bible uses multiple accounts quite differently. Jesus' crucifixion is recorded in detail four times, yet we don't see the huge differences between the accounts that we do in creation or in the parables of the lost items. When Samuel/Kings and Chronicles give accounts of Israel's rulers, they select their details in order to fit their individual purpose, but yet the details mesh together. Saul is followed by David who is followed by Solomon in both accounts, and any differences are in minor details such as the exact moment a king died. Most of the details are exactly the same in both accounts (sometimes word for word).

In the creation accounts, by contrast, hardly any details are the same. While both describe God as creating everything, they do it in totally different ways. Somebody who reads Genesis 2:4-25 without any preconceived ideas from the preceding chapter would get a totally different picture of creation than one who tries to reconcile the second chapter to the first. I think we often miss much of what the second account has to say to us because we are only willing to view it through the filter of the first chapter.


Comments/criticisms?

A Beautiful Truth
December 23rd 2004, 04:02 PM
Finally, getting to the point, Genesis 1:1-2:3 and 2:4-25 give two stories of the creation of the world. Trying to merge the two into one literal account is as ridiculous as trying to merge the parables of the lost sheep, coin and son into a single story, or of merging the descriptions of God as fire, spring, shepherd, warrior, and bird into a single figure. The two creation accounts are not contradictory, but rather they give different halves of a whole.

I believe they are contradictory if they are to be taken literally. But I don't believe they are to be taken literaly, so I do not believe there is contradiction.

The first account starts with primordial waters overwhelming an earth that is "formless and void" (Gen. 1:1-2) while the second starts with primordial ground that saw no rain (Gen. 2:4-5). The first puts man's creation at the end while the second has man created first before the plants have grown or animals have been formed (unless you read it from the NIV, which tries to smooth over the difference with the animals; this is clearer in more word-for-word translations such as the NASB, KJV, NKJV or ESV). In the first God tells the humans to rule over the other creatures and subdue the earth; in the second man is placed in the garden to "work it and take care of it". The first portrays God creating mainly by speaking; the second has God forming Adam from dust and breathing life into him. Similarly, the first portrays God (Elohim, the Hebrew generic name for God) as above his creation while in the second God (Jahweh, the Hebrew personal name for God) walks in the garden with Adam and Eve.

Good job. We discussed this elsewhere a few months ago. Etcetera had a very good post, in post #61. Here is the thread: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36767

It is not a matter of contradiction. Most of the differences are so plainly obvious that it is the height of arrogance to think we've only noticed them now. They were as evident when the accounts were compiled together as they are now. They are presented side by side, which is a pretty good clue that the writer of Genesis wasn't disturbed by their differences.

Yes, yes, yes! I really don't believe the original hearers would have blinked twice about it. It was the way they understood concepts. Because it is not literal does not mean that it is not inspired or true. I think today's readers miss much by trying to make the text literal.

I think we often miss much of what the second account has to say to us because we are only willing to view it through the filter of the first chapter.

How refreshing to hear this. I agree with you. If you can weed through the thread I referenced, you will see this very thing addressed.

Good post.

~Charleen

Mercury
December 23rd 2004, 09:41 PM
Thanks Charleen. I read that other thread and also liked the post you pointed out about the importance of naming. Too bad nobody who disagreed with our approach ever responded to that (aside from agreeing with it but not recognizing its implications).

kofh2u
December 24th 2004, 01:33 AM
I've posted this on another forum but I'd be interested in getting some (hopefully constructive) criticism from the people here. It's an attempt at explaining the way I interpret the first chapters of Genesis.

The Bible contains descriptions of many things we can't comprehend -- things that are beyond human experience. To explain the unexplainable, Scripture tends to use many pictures, none of which are complete, but each of which explains certain things.

For instance, the Bible gives many pictures of God. Here's some of them:

God is Spirit (John 4:24; Psalm 139:7-10).
God is invisible (Col. 1:15; 1 John 4:12).
God is not a man (Num. 23:19; Hos. 11:9).
God is a consuming fire (Deut. 4:24).
God is the spring of living waters (Jer. 2:13).
God is our shepherd (Psalm 23).
God is a warrior (Ex. 15:2-3).
God is a protective mother bird (Psalm 91:4).
If we take any one of these too seriously while excluding others, it can warp our image of God. If we focus on the first three, we may think of God as more of a "force" or a diffused gas than a personal being. Each of the remaining pictures stress certain aspects of God's character that the more technical descriptions don't get across. We don't get the best picture of God by literally combining all the pictures -- that only leads to nonsense -- but instead by combining the characteristics that underlie each picture.

As another example, Jesus uses three parables to explain why he has come to seek and to save the lost. Luke 15 contains the parables of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the lost (or prodigal) son. None of the pictures is totally accurate by themselves (for instance, God can be in more than one place at a time, unlike the shepherd who needs to leave his 99 sheep to go after the lost one) but put together they paint a more complete and accurate picture.

Finally, getting to the point, Genesis 1:1-2:3 and 2:4-25 give two stories of the creation of the world. Trying to merge the two into one literal account is as ridiculous as trying to merge the parables of the lost sheep, coin and son into a single story, or of merging the descriptions of God as fire, spring, shepherd, warrior, and bird into a single figure. The two creation accounts are not contradictory, but rather they give different halves of a whole. If the two halves could neatly fit together into a single historical story, there would have been no reason to present them separately in the first place.

The first account starts with primordial waters overwhelming an earth that is "formless and void" (Gen. 1:1-2) while the second starts with primordial ground that saw no rain (Gen. 2:4-5). The first puts man's creation at the end while the second has man created first before the plants have grown or animals have been formed (unless you read it from the NIV, which tries to smooth over the difference with the animals; this is clearer in more word-for-word translations such as the NASB, KJV, NKJV or ESV). In the first God tells the humans to rule over the other creatures and subdue the earth; in the second man is placed in the garden to "work it and take care of it". The first portrays God creating mainly by speaking; the second has God forming Adam from dust and breathing life into him. Similarly, the first portrays God (Elohim, the Hebrew generic name for God) as above his creation while in the second God (Jahweh, the Hebrew personal name for God) walks in the garden with Adam and Eve.

Many people explain away these differences by taking one account or the other as less literal. Generally, the first account is taken as authoritative and the second is just used to add further detail to the sixth day. When there's an apparent contradiction (such as the plants already existing by this time in the first account but not being there in the second), the first chapter is taken literally and the second is adjusted to fit.

My approach is to take both accounts as two sides of a coin. Either account would lead to misinterpretations if the other is excluded from consideration. For instance, the first account stresses God's transcendence, while the second stresses God's immanence. The first shows God's sovereignty as creation takes place in highly ordered and structured days, while the second focuses on God's providence, with things being created in response to needs (man to till the ground, woman as a helper for man). The first stresses how humanity is created in God's image with dominion over the earth, while the second stresses that we came from dust and have an duty to take care of the world. Industrialists may prefer the first account while environmentalists prefer the second, but by taking both together we find balance.

It is not a matter of contradiction. Most of the differences are so plainly obvious that it is the height of arrogance to think we've only noticed them now. They were as evident when the accounts were compiled together as they are now. They are presented side by side, which is a pretty good clue that the writer of Genesis wasn't disturbed by their differences. Consider two proverbs in the Bible that are often given on Bible contradiction web sites: "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself" and "Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes". What the contradiction web sites try to minimize is where the proverbs are found: Proverbs 26:4-5 -- in other words, they are back to back! Obviously the compiler of Proverbs was well aware that these two proverbs gave different advice for a similar situation, and yet under divine inspiration he had no problem including them both. This was not a flaw he overlooked or some secret that was only discovered by later generations; the proverbs are two sides of the same coin, and so they were placed side by side. There are times when each is relevant, and it is better to keep both in mind than to always use one to the exclusion of the other.

There are other times when the Bible uses multiple accounts quite differently. Jesus' crucifixion is recorded in detail four times, yet we don't see the huge differences between the accounts that we do in creation or in the parables of the lost items. When Samuel/Kings and Chronicles give accounts of Israel's rulers, they select their details in order to fit their individual purpose, but yet the details mesh together. Saul is followed by David who is followed by Solomon in both accounts, and any differences are in minor details such as the exact moment a king died. Most of the details are exactly the same in both accounts (sometimes word for word).

In the creation accounts, by contrast, hardly any details are the same. While both describe God as creating everything, they do it in totally different ways. Somebody who reads Genesis 2:4-25 without any preconceived ideas from the preceding chapter would get a totally different picture of creation than one who tries to reconcile the second chapter to the first. I think we often miss much of what the second account has to say to us because we are only willing to view it through the filter of the first chapter.


Comments/criticisms?


Mercury:
..."the first account stresses God's transcendence,"...

KOFHY:

A Theistic Hod is onevthat is ttanscendent, a God that is beyond the material universe. Such a definition seems particular apt to describe God before the creation, before the Big Bang of "In the beginning"...


Mercury:
... while the second stresses God's immanence...

KOFHY:

An immanent God is an indwelling God, God within the mind of the subject (Adam, in Chapter 2).


We seem to be on the same wave length, though you write much better than do.

What we are privy to, in chapter 2, is a description of the mind which God has created. Eden symbolizes a garden where thinking is taking place. We eill see that the ancient symbolism parallels our most recent insights.

You might visit Rando's Corner where many people have reported favorably concerning their classification by the MBTT. This pschological "type" test tells us that we all fall into one of about a dozen "types" of thinkers.

The test is based upon the possible, mathematically, permutations of the four "rivers" of human thinkingt, the Four Jungian Functional Types of Thinking.


Gen. 2:9 And out of the ground (in this Eden of the mind), made the LORD, (immanent) God to grow every tree (of Subconscious thought) that is pleasant to the sight (of mind), and good for food (of thought); the tree of life, (the Unconscious Mind), also in the midst of the garden (of the evolving mind), and the tree of knowledge of good and evil, (Free Will).

Gen. 2:10 And a river (of twenty-four sensory Cranial Nerves) went out of Eden, (the hardware of this mind), to water (with the data collected) the garden (of the human mind); and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads, (the four Lobes of the Cerebral Cortex).

Gen. 2:11 The name of the first, (the Frontal Lobe), is Pison: that is
it which compasseth (Superego), the whole land of Havilah, (the Jungian Functionn of Thinking): where there is (the) gold (of the Logic);

Mercury
December 24th 2004, 02:04 AM
Well, kofh2u, that's not quite what I had in mind. While I think there is symbolism in the accounts, I don't believe they are written in a code whereby each word or phrase stands for something else.

But, thanks for responding, and have a wonderful Christmas.

Also, I take back my earlier comment about people in another thread not recognizing the implications of a certain post. Not only was that a pointless thing for me to say in this thread, but I think I was also mistaken due to skimming a few posts and confusing a few posters (since I'm new, it's hard to keep everyone straight). If anyone took offense to my comment, my apologies.

Augustine2004
December 24th 2004, 03:23 AM
If you can weed through the thread I referenced, you will see this very thing addressed.I am not going to take that bolded word literally. Nothing to weed, but a good post to read indeed.

lucaspa
December 28th 2004, 03:37 PM
My approach is to take both accounts as two sides of a coin. Either account would lead to misinterpretations if the other is excluded from consideration. For instance, the first account stresses God's transcendence, while the second stresses God's immanence. The first shows God's sovereignty as creation takes place in highly ordered and structured days, while the second focuses on God's providence, with things being created in response to needs (man to till the ground, woman as a helper for man). The first stresses how humanity is created in God's image with dominion over the earth, while the second stresses that we came from dust and have an duty to take care of the world. Industrialists may prefer the first account while environmentalists prefer the second, but by taking both together we find balance.How about looking at it as two creation stories coming from 2 different traditions within Israel? Genesis 1 written to counter the Babylonian religion and Genesis 2-3 to answer the question: why are we cut off from God?

Whether you are an industrialist or an environmentalist, you are still trying to force 21st century meaning onto the text. Neither account was written for the 21st century. Why not try reading the accounts as they would have been understood by the people of the time. Instead of forcing your views on the text.

It is not a matter of contradiction. Most of the differences are so plainly obvious that it is the height of arrogance to think we've only noticed them now. They were as evident when the accounts were compiled together as they are now. They are presented side by side, which is a pretty good clue that the writer of Genesis wasn't disturbed by their differences.Right. The people were not disturbed by the differences, because they knew the theological messages being presented! But that means you have to consider the sociological, political, theological, thinking of the time and how the images used in the stories were known to the people of the time. For instance, what about "in God's image". Are we sure that refers to either physical or mental resemblance to God? Or did the phrase "in his image" have another meaning in the time, a meaning we don't have for it anymore? Did the image of a Tree of Knowledge have a meaning for the time that we don't have anymore? Can we find out by looking at the stories of the other cultures in the area at the time?

In the creation accounts, by contrast, hardly any details are the same. While both describe God as creating everything, they do it in totally different ways. Somebody who reads Genesis 2:4-25 without any preconceived ideas from the preceding chapter would get a totally different picture of creation than one who tries to reconcile the second chapter to the first. I think we often miss much of what the second account has to say to us because we are only willing to view it through the filter of the first chapter. And we miss most of what the first account has to say because we are trying to fit it into 21st century science.

For instance, even you miss that the name of God is completely different between the two accounts!

Jack777
December 28th 2004, 04:13 PM
One account is Creation one is Restoration.

The Creation account is Genesis 1:1

The rest is as they say, history.

The creation of people is two different ones.

None contradict.

The Babylonian accounts are ones in part, borrowed from the one in our Bibles and embellished although keeping in tact some things.

Mercury
December 28th 2004, 04:47 PM
How about looking at it as two creation stories coming from 2 different traditions within Israel?Yes, I think that's a possibility, but I haven't looked into it enough to have too strong of an opinion about it. Anyway, I was focusing here on evidence within the text that the two Genesis creation accounts are not literal, historical records. I intentionally avoided drawing scientific or historical evidence into it.
Whether you are an industrialist or an environmentalist, you are still trying to force 21st century meaning onto the text.I didn't claim to be either. Can you give an example of a way I am forcing 21st century meaning onto the text? Do you think ruling over and caring for creation are 21st century concepts?
For instance, even you miss that the name of God is completely different between the two accounts!I mentioned that in the paragraph that begins with "The first account starts with primordial waters...".

Anyway, I take it you just skimmed the opening post. If you read the whole thing (without reading too much into the areas I didn't deal with), you may see that our differences aren't as large as you imagined.