PDA

View Full Version : Paul: The Worship of the Lord Jesus



foudroyant
01-28-2014, 06:28 PM
A. The Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Lord Jesus is not God and so therefore should never be worshiped.
1. Reverent adoration should be expressed only to God. To render worship to anyone or anything else would be a form of idolatry...True Christians do well to direct their worship only to Jehovah God, the Almighty (Awake! April 8, 2000, page 26+27). Since "every prayer is a form of worship" (The Watchtower, December 15, 1994, page 23) this would mean that praying to the Lord Jesus is not allowed.

B. We have already seen elsewhere that Paul believed the Lord Jesus was to be prayed to/worshiped.
1. See "Call Upon the Name of the Lord - Praying to Jesus" (Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 2 Timothy 2:22): http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?425-Call-upon-the-name-of-the-Lord-Prayers-to-the-Lord-Jesus

2. See also "Doxologies to the Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Timothy 4:18): http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?423-Doxologies-to-the-Lord-Jesus-Christ

C. 2 Corinthians 12:8
Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me (2 Corinthians 12:8, NASB).
1. In verse 8 Paul declared that he implored the Lord. Someone might insist that besought doesn't have to mean prayer. If they resort to this argument I would ask if a Roman Catholic stated that he/she implored Mary (the mother of Jesus) would that mean they were praying to Mary?
The obvious answer is yes.
2. The JW's believe this is a prayer:
The apostle Paul prayed for relief from what he called his “thorn in the flesh.” (2 Corinthians 12:7) This “thorn” may refer to a chronic eye affliction or to the constant harassment of opposers and “false brothers.” (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 4:14, 15) Paul wrote: “I three times entreated the Lord that it might depart from me.” However, God knew that if Paul continued preaching despite this nagging “thorn in the flesh,” it would clearly demonstrate God’s power and Paul’s implicit trust in Him. So rather than grant Paul’s request, God told him: “My power is being made perfect in weakness.”—2 Corinthians 12:8, 9. (The Watchtower, Why Do Some Prayers Go Unanswered, January 1, 2009).
Interestingly, the New World Translation in 2 Corinthians 12:8 does not read Jehovah but Lord.
Three times I begged the Lord about this, that it would depart from me (2 Corinthians 12:8, NWT)
www.watchtower.org/bible/
3. Murray Harris: In secular Greek parakalew is a common word for invoking a deity for aid (The New International Greek Testament Commentary, 2 Corinthians, Murray J. Harris, page 859). He cites in footnote #167 the TDNT 5:775 which reads: for calling on the gods or God in prayer, with a suggestion of the original sense of invoking divine help, e.g., Plat.Leg., 11, 917b and931c (TDNT 5:775, parakalew, O. Schmitz).
4. NIDNTT: In this way the early church bears witness to the fact that it regards Jesus Christ as its Lord and living head, who, having conquered death, is alive for evermore. Consequently one can enter into living, personal contact with him, talking with him just as one did when he was on earth (cf. Acts 9:10-16; 2 Cor. 12:8f) (2:867, Prayer, H. Schonweiss).
5. NIDNTT: Paul also mentions the word that the exalted Lord spoke to him: "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness" (v. 9) (3:315, Revelation, W. Mundle).
6. TDNT: Paul tells us that three times he called on the risen Lord in vain for deliverance from the angel of Satan (5:794, parakalew, Schmitz).
7. Danker: 8- In view of the context, v. 9, it is probable that Paul addressed these three petitions to Christ. If such is the case, it is a unique departure from Paul's custom, which is to address God as the one who is ultimately responsible for everything (cf. 5:18; Rom. 11:33-36). Paul's Jewish liturgical tradition is still firmly entrenched, but Christ is the natural object of his petition here, for it is in the proclamation of his service for all humanity that Paul is engaged. An answer coming from Christ will indeed be especially meaningful (Augsburg Commentary on the New Testament: 2 Corinthians, page 194).
8. Vine: Prayer is properly addressed to God the Father, Matt. 6:6; John 16:23; Eph. 1:17; 3:14, and the Son, Acts 7:59; 2 Cor. 12:8 (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Prayer, page 872).
9. Murray Harris: It is scarcely open to question that the person addressed in Paul's plea for relief from the battering of the messenger of Satan was the Lord Jesus (The New International Greek Testament Commentary, 2 Corinthians, Murray J. Harris, page 860).
10. R.T. France: In 2 Corinthians 12:8, for instance, who was the 'Lord" to whom Paul prayed? Normally his prayers are addressed to God, but "my power" in the answer to Paul's prayer appears to be identified with 'the power of Christ' (verse 9). It seems then that for Paul, Jesus was already so much identified with God that the same language was naturally applicable to each ("The Worship of Jesus - A Neglected Factor In Christological Debate?", R.T. France, Vox Evangelica, 12, c. 1981, 19-33 -> This quote here appears on page 29).

D. Philippians 2:10
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth (Philippians 2:10, NASB).
1. There are four passages as found in the New Testament (only by Paul) where "bow" (kamptw) is used - and everyone refers to worship (Philippians 2:10; Romans 11:4; 14:11; Ephesians 3:14).
2. TDNT: kamptein gonu (gonata) is the gesture of full inner submission in worship to the one before whom we bow the knee. Thus in R. 14:11 bowing the knee is linked with confession within the context of a judgment scene, and in Phil. 2:10 it again accompanies confession with reference to the worship of the exalted Kyrios Jesus by the cosmos. At R. 14:11 kamptein gonu te Baal signifies surrender to Baal, and at Eph. 3:14 the formula kamptw ta gonata pros ton theon is a solemn description of the attitude of submission to God in prayer (3:594-595, kamptw, Schlier).
3. Thayer: to bow the knee, of those worshipping God or Christ: Ro. 11:4; Eph. 3:14; Ro 14:11 (1 K. 19:18); Phil. 2:10 (Is. 45:23) (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, gonu, page 120).
4. Vine: to bend, is used especially of bending the knees in religious veneration, Rom. 11:4; 14:11; Eph. 3:14; Phil. 2:10 (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Bow - kamptw, page 135).
5. Murray Harris: Object of worship (Phil. 2:10-11) (Jesus as God, An Outline to the New Testament Testimony to the Deity of Christ, page 316).
6. Robertson: 2:11 {Should confess} (exomologˆsˆtai). First aorist middle subjunctive of exomologeomai with hina for purpose. {Lord} (kurios). Peter (#Ac 2:36) claimed that God made Christ "Lord." See also #1Co 8:6; 12:3; Ro 10:9. Kennedy mourns that the term Lord has become one of the most lifeless in the Christian vocabulary, whereas it really declares the true character and dignity of Jesus Christ and "is the basis and the object of worship."
http://www.godrules.net/library/robert/robertphi2.htm
7. Holman Bible Dictionary: Kneeling was the posture of prayer (Daniel 6:10; Acts 7:60; Acts 9:40; Acts 20:3; Ephesians 3:14; compare 1 Kings 18:42), acknowledging a superior (2 Kings 1:13; Matthew 17:14; Matthew 27:29; Mark 1:40; Mark 10:17; Luke 5:8), or worship of God (1 Kings 8:54), Jesus (Philippians 2:10), or idols (1 Kings 19:18; Isaiah 66:3 where blessing an idol refers to kneeling before an idol)
http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?n=3696

foudroyant
01-28-2014, 06:29 PM
E. 1 Thessalonians 3:11
Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you (1 Thessalonians 3:11. NASB).
1. Hogg and Vine: This verse is of much importance because of the doctrine of the Deity of Christ therein implied. The Epistle, it will be remembered, is one of the earliest Christian documents, and as such supplies most valuable testimony to primitive Apostolic teaching. From this verse then it is evident that the Thessalonians had been taught to think of the Lord Jesus as One with God, for: -
a, Prayer is addressed to the Lord Jesus cojointly with the Father. It is equally important to notice that the Lord Jesus is united with the Father in respect of His Godhead, He is distinguished from the Father in respect of His personality:
b, The Lord Jesus is associated with God the Father as controller of the ways of men:
c, the Greek verb translated "direct" is in the singular number notwithstanding that two names form its subject. Thus the simple grammatical law, that a verb must agree with its subject in number, is set aside in order that the unique relationship existing between the Persons may be indicated:
d, the sentence may be translated thus: But God Himself, even our Father and our Lord Jesus, direct our way unto you.
(Galatians and Thessalonians, page 103).
2. Robertson: Our God and Father himself (αυτος ο τεος και πατηρ ημων — autos ho theos kai patēr hēmōn). Note one article with both substantives for one person.
And our Lord Jesus (και ο Κυριος ημων Ιησους — kai ho Kurios hēmōn Iēsous). Separate article here with Ιησους — Iēsous In Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1 only one article (not two) treating “our God and Saviour Jesus Christ” as one just like “our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” in 2 Peter 1:11; 2 Peter 2:20; 2 Peter 3:18.
Direct our way (κατευτυναι την οδον ημων — kateuthunai tēn hodon hēmōn). First aorist optative (acute accent on penult, not circumflex first aorist active infinitive) of κατευτυνω — kateuthunō old verb to make straight path. Singular verb also, though both God and Christ mentioned as subject (unity in the Godhead). Apart from μη γενοιτο — mē genoito (may it not come to pass) the optative in a wish of the third person is found in N.T. only in 1 Thessalonians 3:11, 1 Thessalonians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:17; 2 Thessalonians 3:5, 2 Thessalonians 3:16; Romans 15:5, Romans 15:13.
On verse 12: The Lord (ο Κυριος — ho Kurios). The Lord Jesus. Paul prays to Christ.
http://www.studylight.org/com/rwp/view.cgi?bk=51&ch=3
3. Gordon Fee: The present prayer is certain evidence that what Paul says in this next letter is already well in place by the time he writes these earlier letters to the Thessalonian believers. That he does this in such a matter-of-fact way, and without explanation or argumentation, is at the same time sure evidence that he must have previously instructed them not only on the saving work of Christ, but also on who the divine Saviour actually was. So while the opening prayer (v.11) is directed primarily to God the Father, as the emphatic "himself" makes clear, the remarkable inclusion of the Son as the compound subject of the singular verb seems to exist in anticipation of the rest of the prayer, which is directed solely to Christ.
Two further matters need to be noted, both christological. First, one should observe (a) that Paul can pray to both God the Father and the Lord Jesus together as one (v.11), (b) that he can pray to both together but single out one as the object (grammatical subject) of the concerns of prayer at a given time (vv. 12-13), and (c) that in these earliest two letters he can pray to either separately (for the Father see 1 Thess 1:2-3; 5:23; for Christ see 2 Thess 3:5 and 16).
Second, even though the first emphasis in this case is on God the Father, the final focus of the prayer is altogether on the Lord Jesus, which makes the singular verb and compound subject in verse 11 seem to be more than Paul's simply taking over "conventional liturgical language to which [he] and his readers were accustomed." (15) Indeed, this same phenomenon happens in reverse in 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17, where Christ is mentioned first (including with the quotes [himself"]) while the pickup, exactly as in the present case, is with prayer addressed to the second divine person mentioned at the outset, namely God the Father. So one simply cannot be dismissive about the role of Christ in the present prayer. Here is a strict monotheist praying with ease to both the Father and the Son, focusing first on the one and then the other, and without a sense that his monotheism is being stretched or is in some kind of danger (The First and Second Letters to the Thessalonians, page 130-131).
4. George Findlay: The association of “our Lord Jesus” with “God the Father” in acts of prayer and thanksgiving is a very noticeable feature of these two Letters; it affords impressive evidence, coming from the oldest N.T. writings, of the deity of Jesus Christ as this was conceived by the first Christians; the two are so identified that they count as one (cf. the words of Jesus in John 10:30, ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν), blending in the singular optative predicate, κατευθύναι: see also 2 Thessalonians 2:16 f., and note. The petition of 1 Thessalonians 3:12 is addressed to “the Lord” solely. (Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges)
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=51&ch=3

F. 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17
Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17, NASB).
1. Hogg and Vine: For the inference as to the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ see note on "direct" at 3:11 (Galatians and Thessalonians, page 279).
2. Barnes: Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself - This expression is equivalent to this: “I pray our Lord Jesus, and our Father, to comfort you.” It is really a prayer offered to the Saviour - a recognition of Christ as the source of consolation as well as the Father, and a union of his name with that of the Father in invoking important blessings. It is such language as could be used only by one who regarded the Lord Jesus as divine.
And God even our Father - Greek: “And God, and ( και kai) our Father;” though not incorrectly rendered “even our Father.” If it should be contended that the use of the word “and” - “our Lord Jesus Christ, and God,” proves that the Lord Jesus is a different being from God - the use of the same word “and” would prove that the “Father” is a different being from God. But the truth is, the apostle meant to speak of the Father and the Son as the common Source of the blessing for which he prayed.
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnb/view.cgi?bk=52&ch=2
3. Poole: The apostle here addeth prayer to his exhortation: the word and prayer are to go together, whether it be written or preached; as the twelve told the disciples, Acts 6:4: We will give ourselves to the word and prayer. He had planted them a church, but he knew God gave the increase, 1 Corinthians 3:6. The persons he prays to are here, first,
our Lord Jesus Christ; which was a good argument in Athanasius’s time, for the dignity of Christ, against the Arians; and so it is still, and now against the Socinians: for God alone is the object of worship, and the bestower of those gifts which he here prays for. Only the apostle, when he mentions Christ, delights to mention him in his relation to his people; so he doth for the most part in all his Epistles, and so in this text. He useth a pronoun possessive, our, for it is relation and interest which commendeth and sweeteneth any good to us. And the other person is
God the Father, who is the Father of lights, from whom cometh every good and perfect gift, James 1:17; and whom in his prayer he mentions together with Christ, because no access can be to God but through Christ, and no good gift descends to us but through him. And so God the Father is mentioned in his relation to his people also, God, even our Father; and when Christ is ours, in him God is ours also. And the apostle thus looking, and thus speaking of Christ and of God, strengthens his own and their faith, for the obtaining of the gifts he prays for.
http://www.studylight.org/com/mpc/view.cgi?bk=52&ch=2

G. 2 Thessalonians 3:16
Now may the Lord of peace Himself continually grant you peace in every circumstance. The Lord be with you all! (2 Thessalonians 3:16, NASB)
1. NIDNTT: Concerning Jesus: He is the kyrios of peace and gives peace (2 Thess. 3:16), mercy (2 Tim. 1:16), and insight (2 Tim. 2:7) (2:517, Lord, H. Bietenhard).
2. NIDNTT: 1 Thess. 3:10-13; 2 Thess 2:16 and 2 Thess. 3:16 are listed under "Intercessory prayer for others, including blessings and cursings" (2:874, Prayer, H. Schonweiss, C, Brown).
3. Hogg and Vine: as the title "God of peace" refers to the Father, so "Lord of peace" is best understood of the Son. (Galatians and Thessalonians, page 292)
4. Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown: Lord of peace — Jesus Christ. The same title is given to Him as to the Father, “the God of peace” (Romans 15:33; Romans 16:20; 2 Corinthians 13:11). An appropriate title in the prayer here, where the harmony of the Christian community was liable to interruption from the “disorderly.” The Greek article requires the translation, “Give you the peace” which it is “His to give.” “Peace” outward and inward, here and hereafter (Romans 14:17). always — unbroken, not changing with outward circumstances.
by all means — Greek, “in every way.” Most of the oldest manuscripts read, “in every place”; thus he prays for their peace in all times (“always”) and places.
Lord be with you all — May He bless you not only with peace, but also with His presence (Matthew 28:20). Even the disorderly brethren (compare 2 Thessalonians 3:15, “a brother”) are included in this prayer.
http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?bk=52&ch=3
5. George Findlay: “The Lord of peace” is surely Christ, as in the whole context (see note on κύριος, 2 Thessalonians 3:1 above), and regularly with St Paul. The previous context—2 Thessalonians 3:14 especially—suggests this prayer; the “peace” desired has reference to the Church troubles of the hour. (Cambridge Greek Testament for School's and Colleges)
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/cgt/view.cgi?bk=52&ch=3

H. The Jehovah's Witnesses belief that the Lord Jesus is not to be worshiped runs contrary to what Paul repeatedly affirmed.

foudroyant
07-30-2014, 07:08 PM
Another prayer to the Lord Jesus by Paul is found in 2 Thessalonians 3:5.

May the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the steadfastness of Christ. (NASB)

1. Leon Morris: "The Lord" here is Jesus; we have another indication of the place Paul accorded him in this prayer addressed to him. The verb 'direct" (see on 1 Thess. 3:11) signifies the removal of all obstacles so that the way is cleared. The noun "heart" (see on 1 Thess. 2:4) stands for the whole of the inner life. Paul's prayer, then, is that the Lord will lead his friends to concentrate their thinking, their emotions, and their will on the love and steadfastness to which he refers. (The New International Commentary on the New Testament: The First and Second Epistles to the Thessalonians, pages 250-251).
2. Alford: ὁ κύρ. is our Lord, as before.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/hac/view.cgi?bk=52&ch=3
3. Robertson: The Lord here is the Lord Jesus.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/rwp/view.cgi?bk=52&ch=3
4. Vincent: The prayer is that their hearts may be directed to love God and to exhibit the patience of Christ.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/vnt/view.cgi?bk=52&ch=3
5. Alexander MacLaren: A word or two of explanation of terms may preface our remarks on this, the third of the Apostle’s prayers for the Thessalonians in this letter. The first point to be noticed is that by ‘the Lord’ here is meant, as usually in the New Testament, Jesus Christ. So that here again we have the distinct recognition of His divinity, and the direct address of prayer to Him.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/mac/view.cgi?bk=52&ch=3

Just as Paul prayed to the Father and the Lord Jesus to "direct" (κατευθύνω) the way in 1 Thessalonians 3:11 he now prays to the Lord Jesus to "direct" (κατευθύνω) the believers hearts in 2 Thessalonians 3:5. In both prayers the underlying theme is "love" (2 Thessalonians 3:5; cf. 1 Thessalonians 3:12).

Furthermore, this directing of the hearts by God in the Old Testament is used in relation to praying to/worshiping Him:
Then Samuel spoke to all the house of Israel, saying, "If you return to the LORD with all your heart, remove the foreign gods and the Ashtaroth from among you and direct your hearts to the LORD and serve Him alone; and He will deliver you from the hand of the Philistines." (1 Samuel 7:3, NASB)

O LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, our fathers, preserve this forever in the intentions of the heart of Your people, and direct their heart to You (1 Chronicles 29:18, NASB)

If you would direct your heart right and spread out your hand to Him (Job 11:13, NASB)

Likewise, the directing of the hearts by the Lord Jesus in 2 Thessalonians 3:5 is used in relation to praying to/worshiping Him.

apostoli
07-31-2014, 10:17 AM
And yet all Christian denominations that I have encountered (except for the Sabeelianisers = oneness churches) teach that we we pray to God (the Father) through Jesus Christ...after all Jesus taught us to pray to "Our Father who is in heaven, hallowed be thou name", and it is the Father's kingdom that Jesus taught us to pray for...(note 1 Cor 15, in the end times the Son subjects himeslf to his Father)...

foudroyant
07-31-2014, 03:31 PM
And yet the Bible records the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer as well.

Matthew 6:9 was already addressed about 6 months ago:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?446-Objections-to-praying-to-worshiping-the-Lord-Jesus-answered

apostoli
08-01-2014, 10:52 PM
And yet the Bible records the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer as well.

Matthew 6:9 was already addressed about 6 months ago:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?446-Objections-to-praying-to-worshiping-the-Lord-Jesus-answeredWhere in scripture is it attested that worship and prayer is directly directed to Jesus as opposed to him being a conduit to his Father? Jesus taught us to pray to "Our Father" not "Dear Jesus"....

Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead?

tabibito
08-02-2014, 12:59 AM
Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? This one I'm not sure of. But that might come down to a nuance to "own volition". ... Willingly submitting himself to the Father's desire is not what I would categorise as "not of his own volition".

foudroyant
08-02-2014, 01:57 AM
Jesus taught us to pray to "Our Father" not "Dear Jesus"....


This was already addressed in Post #5.

tabibito
08-02-2014, 02:24 AM
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
(dreadful rendering, for all that it is correct: any word that identifies Christ as being called out to, rather than "God" would be more appropriate)
Yup - Stephen calls out to Jesus. Where does it say he was praying or worshiping?

apostoli
08-02-2014, 02:59 AM
This one I'm not sure of. But that might come down to a nuance to "own volition". ... Willingly submitting himself to the Father's desire is not what I would categorise as "not of his own volition".Fair comment. I was thinking of the several testimonies of Jesus wherein he credits his (Jesus') purpose to his Father. John 8:42 is an example "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

apostoli
08-02-2014, 03:10 AM
This was already addressed in Post #5.Post #5 says nothing but it does link to another thread which I admit I was truant in not reading.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?446-Objections-to-praying-to-worshiping-the-Lord-Jesus-answered

I'm not aware of any orthodox church that directs their prays directly at Jesus. Of course the Sabellianisers (oneness churches) do! I'm RCC and I was always taught to direct my prays to the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ...For pray is a thanksgiving, and it was the Father who sent his only begotten Son to be saviour of the world. Have a think on John 12:44 "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

Also I'm awaiting your response to the questions I proffered in post #6...I'll repeat them continuously until you answer them...

Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead?

foudroyant
08-02-2014, 04:35 AM
I'm not aware of any orthodox church that directs their prays directly at Jesus.

So what? The Bible teaches that He was and is to be prayed to.

You can keep asking your other questions all you want but since you can't even get prayers to the Lord Jesus correct (what this thread has to do with) then nothing else will make sense.

foudroyant
08-02-2014, 04:44 AM
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
(dreadful rendering, for all that it is correct: any word that identifies Christ as being called out to, rather than "God" would be more appropriate)
Yup - Stephen calls out to Jesus. Where does it say he was praying or worshiping?

By calling out to Him it is praying to Him.
See the OP, Part "D".
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?425-Call-upon-the-name-of-the-Lord-Prayers-to-the-Lord-Jesus

tabibito
08-02-2014, 04:59 AM
I'm satisfied that if the Biblical author had wanted to say "prayed", he would have used the appropriate word. I don't hold with any story that "the author said X but he really meant Y"

apostoli
08-02-2014, 05:34 AM
So what? The Bible teaches that He was and is to be prayed to.

You can keep asking your other questions all you want but since you can't even get prayers to the Lord Jesus correct (what this thread has to do with) then nothing else will make sense.You really do need to understand the difference between supplication and prayer...Jesus tells us he taught and does what his Father wants...

Given you refuse to attest to the simplest of Christian belief, I'll assume you aren't a Christian. I'll also assume you belong to some obscure American cult that refuses to accept Christian scripture...

But I'll give you another chance...

Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead?

foudroyant
08-02-2014, 02:01 PM
I'm satisfied that if the Biblical author had wanted to say "prayed", he would have used the appropriate word. I don't hold with any story that "the author said X but he really meant Y"

There are different ways to express a truth claim.

foudroyant
08-02-2014, 02:05 PM
You really do need to understand the difference between supplication and prayer...Jesus tells us he taught and does what his Father wants...

And His Father wants us to pray to the Lord Jesus.

One more chance? I don't need any chances from you, idiot. You can't even figure out that the Lord Jesus is prayed to.

Take your stupidity elsewhere.

apostoli
08-02-2014, 07:01 PM
And His Father wants us to pray to the Lord Jesus.

One more chance? I don't need any chances from you, idiot. You can't even figure out that the Lord Jesus is prayed to.

Take your stupidity elsewhere.Interesting! You attack the JWs but apparently deny the very basics of mainstream Christian teaching!!!!

I'll give you another chance...

Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

Failure to answer such basic questions will reveal you to be the fraud you actualise...

Jesus well describes you and like at John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do... "

Of course Christians supplicate to Jesus, but we do so for the intervention of his Father. As Jesus puts it at John 14:13: "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

Note John 3:34-35 "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand..."

foudroyant
08-02-2014, 07:28 PM
Yeah Christians are to pray to the Lord Jesus -> the point of this thread.

apostoli
08-02-2014, 07:55 PM
Yeah Christians are to pray to the Lord Jesus -> the point of this thread.As is typical of you, you can't differentiate between prayer and supplication...or for that matter Jesus' & the apostles' teaching concerning the direction or meaning for our prayer...

Seems you are intent on ignoring Christian teaching for around the last 20 centuries...so JWs and everyone else may as well ignore your cult's perspective and your evident ignorance (socially, scripturally and intellectually)...

If you see yourself as a Christian in some form (no matter how obviously abnormal), you should have no trouble in answering the following questions in the affirmative....failure to do so, simply reveals you to be a fraud (something you currently evidence)...but in Christian kindness I'll give you another chance...

Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

foudroyant
08-02-2014, 08:18 PM
See my response in Post #17 dummy.

apostoli
08-02-2014, 08:45 PM
See my response in Post #17 dummy.You said nothing of substance in Post #17. Just more infantile rants....You have already proved yourself to be a fruad, by not responding to a very simple set of Orthodox Christian beliefs....I am forced to understand you are a Sabellianiser, a group rejected by the Church since the 2nd century, and a group that continues to be rejected even though its ugly head arose again in the USA in the 20th century...

Apparently, you are too gutless to affirm or deny the most elementary teachings of Chistianity!!! Your reluctance evidences the imprudence of your stupidity...Once again I offer you a chance of redemption...

Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

Failure to answer such basic questions will reveal you to be the fraud you actualise...

Jesus well describes you and like at John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do... "

Of course Christians supplicate to Jesus, but we do so for the intervention of his Father. As Jesus puts it at John 14:13: "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

Note John 3:34-35 "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand..."

ps: It is of great interest that you, in your post #17, considered my direct quotation of scripture and my attestment to Christinan belief for nearly 20 centuries, as a stupidity. Tells all our viewers a lot about whatever heretical cult you have attached yourself to...

foudroyant
08-02-2014, 08:56 PM
yur funny

apostoli
08-02-2014, 09:09 PM
yur funnyAnd obviously you have no Christian convictions...in my observation you just want to grandize yourself from a position of biblical ignorance...

Apparently, you are too gutless to affirm or deny the most elementary teachings of Chistianity!!! Your reluctance evidences the imprudence of your stupidity...Once again I offer you a chance of redemption...

Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

Failure to answer such basic questions will reveal you to be the fraud you actualise...

Jesus well describes you and like at John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do... "

foudroyant
08-02-2014, 09:16 PM
start another thread somewhere else about this topic.
THIS THREAD has to do with the Lord Jesus being prayed to/worshiped.

apostoli
08-03-2014, 07:32 AM
start another thread somewhere else about this topic.
THIS THREAD has to do with the Lord Jesus being prayed to/worshiped.Indeed. Scripture tells us explicitly, without denial, that King David had himself worshiped in equivalence with God (1 Chronicles 29:20). However, as Novation about 50-70 years before Nicea, in his lengthy Treatise on the Trinity makes plain, God (the Father) made the Son, God to us!!! So of course we should supplicate the Son as he is our Lord (1 Cor 8:6), our master and owner...

It appears, in your cowardice and lack of conviction, you deny Jesus Christ, his Father and all the teachings of Orthodox Christianity!!! So whatever dribble you wish to sprout is proved by our own obscurity to be in absolute error...

Once again (for the seventh time) I ask you to affirm or deny the most basic of Christian principles...

Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

tabibito
08-03-2014, 08:27 AM
Indeed. Scripture tells us explicitly, without denial, that King David had himself worshiped in equivalence with God (1 Chronicles 29:20). Or if that isn't considered acceptable, Zechariah 14:16 should settle any doubts.

foudroyant
08-03-2014, 03:49 PM
How pathetic that you still cite 1 Chronicles 29:20 with the same old wrong interpretation of it.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?2385-Controversy-on-Christianity-Today-s-website&p=70847&posted=1#post70847

Post #200

apostoli
08-04-2014, 12:17 AM
Or if that isn't considered acceptable, Zechariah 14:16 should settle any doubts.Thankyou...though Zech 14:16+17 is a bit ambiguous. Imu, "the King, YHWH of Hosts" is a reference to the one personage. However, 1 Chron 29:20 makes a distinction between personages...I'm not infallible, so if you can provide some insight it would be appreciated...

apostoli
08-04-2014, 12:22 AM
How pathetic that you still cite 1 Chronicles 29:20 with the same old wrong interpretation of it.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?2385-Controversy-on-Christianity-Today-s-website&p=70847&posted=1#post70847

Post #200How pathetic is it that you can't affirm the Christian belief of 99% of the Churches...

For the 8th time I ask you to either affirm or deny the most basic of Christian teachings...

Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

Your reluctance to affirm the most simple of Christian principles, now for the eighth time demonstrates you reject Christianity. The assumption therefore is that in your pretense you adhere to some hillybilly cult....

foudroyant
08-04-2014, 12:24 AM
How pathetic is it that you can't affirm the Christian belief of 99% of the Churches...

For the 8th time I ask you to either affirm or deny the most basic of Christian teachings...

Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

Your reluctance to affirm the most simple of Christian principles, now for the eighth time demonstrates you reject Christianity. The assumption therefore is that in your pretense you adhere to some hillybilly cult....

I don't need to confirm anything to heretics that I don't feel like.
See Post #25...learn how to read.

tabibito
08-04-2014, 12:35 AM
What do your "hosts" tell about Zechariah 14:16, Foudroyant?

foudroyant
08-04-2014, 01:26 AM
Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. (Zechariah 14:16, NASB)

no idea what you are asking me about.

tabibito
08-04-2014, 01:49 AM
It says there that the king is to be worshipped. What do your hosts have to say about that point?

foudroyant
08-04-2014, 01:52 AM
the King, the LORD of hosts

The King is the LORD of hosts.

tabibito
08-04-2014, 02:02 AM
I see that I have been remiss. This time you have correctly understood your hosts.


שָׁחָה
Transliteration
shachah

Pronunciation
shä·khä' (Key)
Part of Speech
verb

Root Word (Etymology)
A primitive root
Dictionary Aids

TWOT Reference: 2360
Outline of Biblical Usage

to bow down

(Qal) to bow down

(Hiphil) to depress (fig)

(Hithpael)

to bow down, prostrate oneself

before superior in homage

before God in worship

before false gods

before angels

foudroyant
08-04-2014, 02:03 AM
ok

apostoli
08-04-2014, 07:15 AM
I don't need to confirm anything to heretics that I don't feel like.
See Post #25...learn how to read.The only heritic around here is YOU!!! You simply need to affirm or deny the Christian belief of 99+% of the various churches...

For the 9th time...

"Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)"

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your reluctance to respond to such a simple testimony, your avoidance to affirm the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject Christianity...

ps: As for your post #25, it simply demonstrates your cowardice and ignorance. As Jesus said to the Samaritan woman, "...the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him..." (John 4:23).

foudroyant
08-04-2014, 06:15 PM
See Post #25.

apostoli
08-04-2014, 09:57 PM
See Post #25.As for your post #25, it simply demonstrates your cowardice and ignorance. As Jesus said to the Samaritan woman, "...the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him..." (John 4:23).

Your denial of Christ's personal testimonies evidences your absolute rejection of Christianity...so in your persecution of the JWs, stop pretending you are a Christian! I and others are on your tail and will prosecute you to the nth degree...Hopefully, as a result, one day you will have the heart to accept Christ, his Father and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit...

For the 10th time...

"Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)"

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your reluctance to respond to such a simple Christian testimony, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject Christianity...

There is no need for me to open another thread to discuss your inability to make a Christian witness/testimony, as the Biblical testimony of worship and prayer trumps your aberrational stupidity...

foudroyant
08-04-2014, 10:02 PM
There is no need for me to open another thread to discuss your inability to make a Christian witness/testimony, as the Biblical testimony of worship and prayer trumps your aberrational stupidity...

See my first sentence in Post #31.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?444-Paul-The-Worship-of-the-Lord-Jesus/page4

apostoli
08-04-2014, 11:06 PM
See my first sentence in Post #31.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?444-Paul-The-Worship-of-the-Lord-Jesus/page4Your denial of Christ's personal testimonies evidences your absolute rejection of Christianity...so in your persecution of the JWs, stop pretending you are a Christian! I and others are on your tail and will prosecute you to the nth degree...Hopefully, as a result, one day you will have the heart to accept Christ, his Father and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit...

For the 11th time...

"Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)"

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your reluctance to respond to such a simple Christian testimony, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject Christianity...

foudroyant
08-04-2014, 11:08 PM
I and others are on your tail and will prosecute you to the nth degree..

Oh, I am trembling.

apostoli
08-04-2014, 11:15 PM
start another thread somewhere else about this topic.
THIS THREAD has to do with the Lord Jesus being prayed to/worshiped.

I don't need to confirm anything to heretics that I don't feel like.
See Post #25...learn how to read.No need to start another thread. In your absolute ignorance you are unable to differentiate beteen supplication and prayer! I have particularly noticed that in your rants you have avoided Jesus' testimony. He directs us to direct our prayers to his Father...(albeit through him = "whatever is asked in my name"...)

You evidence that the only heretic around here is you!!! You evidence denial of the most elemental teachings of Christ. You evidence denial of the most elementary teachings of Christianity.

I'm not going anywhere. I suspect you belong to effluent cult, that makes the JWs look good. At least the JWs distinguish between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You on the other hand refuse to acknowledge Biblical truth as has been taught by mainstream Christianity since the day dot...

You defame Christ! You disgust me!!!

foudroyant
08-04-2014, 11:22 PM
You disgust me!!!

This is awesome!

Keep asking your questions because I ain't answering 'em.

They don't belong here. Another thread should be started elsewhere.

yur still funny.

apostoli
08-05-2014, 12:28 AM
This is awesome!

Keep asking your questions because I ain't answering 'em.

They don't belong here. Another thread should be started elsewhere.

yur still funny.And you are still infantile...

If you can't affirm the most elementary teachings of the wide and diverse aspects of Christianity (the things that the majority Chruch agrees on) then you can't preach your heresies let alone criticise any obscure sect such as the JWs.

Your issue is prayer and whom it is directed at...according to Jesus (numerous scriptures already cited), it is to be directed towards his Father, in the name of Jesus Christ...That is the scriptural witness...

For the 12th time...

"Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)"

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your cowardice and refusal to respond to such a simple Christian testimony, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject Christianity...and instead adhere to some aberrant and heretical teaching that was rejected by the Christian church centuries ago...




and others are on your tail and will prosecute you to the nth degree..Oh, I am trembling.
Well you should tremble, for in your denial of the witness of Jesus Christ (and the consensus of the majority Church), you condemn yourself...

foudroyant
08-05-2014, 01:51 AM
See Post #25.

apostoli
08-08-2014, 09:25 PM
See Post #25.Your non-post #25 says nothing, but simply highlights your need to run away and hide from the revelation of your obvious oneness (sabellianists) heresies...

Why open a new post when the issues I have raised are on topic? Obviously in your irreligious attitude and small mindedness and social & scriptural ignorance and absolute cowardice in preaching Christ you have nothing to save let alone say. You could have used scripture in an attempt to refute the mainstream Christian opinion, but obviously you are ignorant of scripture, where it is not derived from whatever heretical pamplets you draw your ignorance from. In my perspective, I just see you as a preadolescent child, acting in an attempt to pound your breast and persecute some obscure group such as the JWs in the hope to to build your obviously deficient ego.

If you can't affirm the most elementary teachings of the wide and diverse aspects of Christianity (the things that the majority Chruch agrees on) then you can't preach your heresies let alone criticise any obscure sect such as the JWs.

Your issue is prayer and whom it is directed at...according to Jesus (numerous scriptures already cited), it is to be directed towards his Father, in the name of Jesus Christ...That is the scriptural witness...

For the nth time...

"Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)"

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your cowardice and refusal to respond to such a simple Christian testimony, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject Christianity...and instead adhere to some aberrant and heretical teaching that was rejected by the Christian church centuries ago...

foudroyant
08-08-2014, 10:17 PM
Your issue is prayer and whom it is directed at...according to Jesus (numerous scriptures already cited), it is to be directed towards his Father, in the name of Jesus Christ...That is the scriptural witness...

And the Scriptural witness demonstrates that prayer can be directed to the Lord Jesus. (See Posts 1-3)



My "obvious oneness (sabellianists) heresies"?
I believe in the Trinity.

This is what I previously wrote (See #4):
This is what the Trinitarian would expect to find but not the Unitarian.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?424-The-Worship-of-the-Multi-Personal-God-%28Genesis-48-15-16%29

This is what I previously cited (See "a"):
7. Keith Krell: Paul informs us that the Holy Spirit searches the very depths of the heart and mind of God. He can do this because He is God—the third member of the Trinity.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?1946-The-Deity-of-the-Holy-Spirit

Clue up.

apostoli
08-09-2014, 01:20 AM
And the Scriptural witness demonstrates that prayer can be directed to the Lord Jesus. (See Posts 1-3)



My "obvious oneness (sabellianists) heresies"?
I believe in the Trinity.

This is what I previously wrote (See #4):
This is what the Trinitarian would expect to find but not the Unitarian.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?424-The-Worship-of-the-Multi-Personal-God-%28Genesis-48-15-16%29

This is what I previously cited (See "a"):
7. Keith Krell: Paul informs us that the Holy Spirit searches the very depths of the heart and mind of God. He can do this because He is God—the third member of the Trinity.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?1946-The-Deity-of-the-Holy-Spirit

Clue up.Despite your lip service, it is obvious that you reject Trinitarian belief, and mainstream Christian teaching... Therefore the presumption is you belong to some hillbilly cult, or some villianious cult of your own invention...or maybe you are simply a deluded member of one of the American Pentecostal sects that hold the Father, Son & Spirit are simply modes of appearance of their one fictitious God - Trinitarianism, following the teaching of scripture, teaches that the Father, Son & Spirit are distinct identities who are in distinct and perpetual existence from each other and as Pope Benedict declared some time ago to the applause of all the Orthodox churches, the Father alone is the source and cause of the Son and the Spirit (ie: 99+% of the Christian churches are in total agreement on this aspect of the both the economy and ontology of the Tri-unity)...

If you can't affirm the most elementary teachings of the wide and diverse aspects of Christianity (the things that the majority Chruch agrees on and which Christ taught) then you can't preach your heresies let alone criticise any obscure sect such as the JWs.

Your issue is prayer and whom it is directed at...according to Jesus (numerous scriptures already cited), it is to be directed towards his Father, in the name of Jesus Christ...That is the scriptural witness...

For the nth time...

"Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)"

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your cowardice and your continuous refusal (now about 14 times) to respond to such a simple Christian testimony, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject Christianity...and instead adhere to some aberrant and heretical teaching that was rejected by the Christian church centuries ago...

foudroyant
08-09-2014, 01:25 AM
It is obvious that you reject Trinitarian belief

You are more deranged than I thought.
----------------
Prayer is also to be directed to the Lord Jesus.

tabibito
08-09-2014, 02:50 AM
:popcorn:

apostoli
08-09-2014, 03:33 AM
You are more deranged than I thought.
----------------
Prayer is also to be directed to the Lord Jesus.For what purpose? According to scripture, for the glorification of his (Jesus') Father....For according to scripture (and Jesus) all things are now to be prayed for in the name of Jesus Christ!!!!

Given you are unable to assent to the most basic of Christian principles it is apparent you aren't, in any semblance, a Christian. Possibly, when you have a sober moment, you might inquire at your local hospital for drug and/or alcohol rehabilitation or consult an Orthodox Christian pastor/priest for education in Orthodox Christian belief...
__________________________

Despite your lip service, it is obvious that you reject Trinitarian belief, and mainstream Christian teaching... Therefore the presumption is you belong to some hillbilly cult, or some villianious cult of your own invention...or maybe you are simply a deluded member of one of the American Pentecostal sects that hold the Father, Son & Spirit are simply modes of appearance of their one fictitious God (one person, three modes of existence).

Trinitarianism, following the teaching of scripture, teaches that the Father, Son & Spirit are distinct identities (three distinct persons) who are in distinct and perpetual existence from each other and as Pope Benedict declared some time ago to the applause of all the Orthodox churches, the Father alone is the source and cause of the Son and the Spirit (ie: 99+% of the Christian churches are in total agreement on this aspect of the both the economy and ontology of the Tri-unity)...

If you can't affirm the most elementary teachings of the wide and diverse aspects of Christianity (the things that the majority Chruch agrees on and which Christ taught) then you can't preach your heresies let alone criticise any obscure sect such as the JWs.

Your issue is prayer and whom it is directed at...according to Jesus (numerous scriptures already cited), it is to be directed towards his Father, in the name of Jesus Christ...That is the scriptural witness...

For the nth time...

"Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)"

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your cowardice and your continuous refusal (now about 14 times) to respond to such a simple Christian testimony, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject Christianity...and instead adhere to some aberrant and heretical teaching that was rejected by the Christian church centuries ago....

:popcorn:.:popcorn:.:popcorn::popcorn:
:popcorn:.:popcorn:.:popcorn::popcorn:
:popcorn:.:popcorn:.:popcorn::popcorn:
:popcorn:.:popcorn:.

foudroyant
08-09-2014, 06:32 AM
For what purpose? According to scripture, for the glorification of his (Jesus') Father

Yes.
So don't assert that He isn't to be prayed to when Scripture teaches that He was and is to be.

apostoli
08-10-2014, 12:21 AM
And the Scriptural witness demonstrates that prayer can be directed to the Lord Jesus.
For what purpose? According to scripture, for the glorification of his (Jesus') FatherYes.
So don't assert that He isn't to be prayed to when Scripture teaches that He was and is to be.I'd love to know where I asserted Jesus wasn't to be prayed to (?)

In an earlier post I made specific mention that we are to supplicate Jesus.... Prayer is a thanksgiving directed at the Father through the Son according to scripture. Supplication, since the resurrection of the Son, is directed at Jesus (albeit through the testimony of A.Paul, via the intervention of the Spirit - read Romans 8).
______________________

Despite your lip service, it is obvious that you reject Trinitarian belief, and mainstream Christian teaching... Therefore the presumption is you belong to some hillbilly cult, or some villianious cult of your own invention...or maybe you are simply a deluded member of one of the American Pentecostal sects that hold the Father, Son & Spirit are simply modes of appearance of their one fictitious God (one person, three modes of existence).

Trinitarianism, following the teaching of scripture, teaches that the Father, Son & Spirit are distinct identities (three distinct persons) who are in distinct and perpetual existence from each other and as Pope Benedict declared some time ago to the applause of all the Orthodox churches, the Father alone is the source and cause of the Son and the Spirit (ie: 99+% of the Christian churches are in total agreement on this aspect of the both the economy and ontology of the Tri-unity)...

If you can't affirm the most elementary teachings of the wide and diverse aspects of Christianity (the things that the majority Chruch agrees on and which Christ taught) then you can't preach your heresies let alone criticise any obscure sect such as the JWs.

Your issue is prayer and whom it is directed at...according to Jesus (numerous scriptures already cited), it is to be directed towards his Father, in the name of Jesus Christ...That is the scriptural witness...

For the nth time...

"Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)"

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your cowardice and your continuous refusal (now about 15 times) to respond to such a simple Christian testimony, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject Christianity...and instead adhere to some aberrant and heretical teaching that was rejected by the Christian church centuries ago....

:popcorn:,:popcorn:,:popcorn:,:popcorn:,:popcorn:,
:popcorn:,:popcorn:,:popcorn:,:popcorn:,:popcorn:,
:popcorn:,:popcorn:,:popcorn:,:popcorn:,:popcorn:

foudroyant
08-10-2014, 12:55 AM
I'd love to know where I asserted Jesus wasn't to be prayed to (?)

In an earlier post I made specific mention that we are to supplicate Jesus.... Prayer is a thanksgiving directed at the Father through the Son according to scripture. Supplication, since the resurrection of the Son, is directed at Jesus

What a pathetic false dichotomy.

apostoli
08-10-2014, 11:21 PM
What a pathetic false dichotomy.It is of great interest to me that you found it necessary to edit my previous post...and especially that your eject the testimony of scripture. For the benefit of our viewers I'll repeat the main point of my previous post...


I'd love to know where I asserted Jesus wasn't to be prayed to (?)

In an earlier post I made specific mention that we are to supplicate Jesus.... Prayer is a thanksgiving directed at the Father through the Son according to scripture. Supplication, since the resurrection of the Son, is directed at Jesus (albeit through the testimony of A.Paul, via the intervention of the Spirit - read Romans 8).

______________________

For the nth time...your cowardise in not affirming standard (universal) Christian belief you prove yourself not a Christian. What are you? A Muslim, pretending to be a Christian? Reveal your beliefs! So far you are simply coming across as some pugnacious child who has no comprehension of standard Christianity...

"Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)"

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your cowardice and your continuous refusal (now about 16 times) to respond to such a simple Christian testimony, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject Christianity...and instead adhere to some aberrant and heretical teaching....

foudroyant
08-11-2014, 05:15 AM
In an earlier post I made specific mention that we are to supplicate Jesus.... Prayer is a thanksgiving directed at the Father through the Son according to scripture. Supplication, since the resurrection of the Son, is directed at Jesus

It's still pathetic.
Nowhere are we to supplicate the Lord Jesus without it being prayer to Him.

What a demented theology of buffoonery you espouse.

apostoli
08-11-2014, 05:41 AM
It's still pathetic.
Nowhere are we to supplicate the Lord Jesus without it being prayer to Him.

What a demented theology of buffoonery you espouse.Obviously, in your general ignorance of Christian belief, you do not know the difference between supplication and prayer...

Well grasshopper there are several billion persons in the majority and orthodox church that share my opinion!!!! What have you got? Certainly not any scriptural evidence let alone a following!!!!


By example: in the original KJV (and later versions) the word for "bread" (any subsidence) was translated "meat". Today we assume "meat" comes from animals, not vegetation. In the original (Biblical) Greek, words have a range of meanings. For instance at John 14, the word/s often translated as "see" actually mean "perceive". For how else is it that the Father was invisible to Jesus' disciples, though Jesus makes it explicit that it is obvious? (see John 12:44-45 "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me." Or how is it that A.Paul at Col 2:9 describes Jesus as containing theotēs (the state of being God in bodily form = ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς)?
______________________

For the nth time (is this the 17th time?)...your cowardise in not affirming standard (universal) Christian belief you prove yourself not a Christian. What are you? A Muslim, pretending to be a Christian? Reveal your beliefs! So far you are simply coming across as some pugnacious child who has no comprehension of standard Christianity...

"Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)"

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your cowardice and your continuous refusal (now about 17 times) to respond to such a simple Christian testimony, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject Christianity...and instead adhere to some aberrant and heretical teaching....

foudroyant
08-11-2014, 09:18 PM
Supply a passage where the Lord Jesus can now be supplicated but it isn't prayer.

apostoli
08-11-2014, 11:29 PM
Supply a passage where the Lord Jesus can now be supplicated but it isn't prayer.Your ignorance is astronomical...I will concede that supplication is an asking of someone in absolute authority to grant something (by definition it is a prayer that can be delivered to men, angels, god/s or whoever has the power of life or death over you. (See Deuteronomy where YHWH defines himself in those exact terms. Also see Exodus and the purpose of Moses' spurious sacrifices) .

But it is hardly the prayer that Jesus told us to pray for...We, us Orthodox Christians (RCC,ROC,EOC,OOC etc), do not pray for Jesus' kingdom to come (according to Jesus), but that his Father's will be done on earth and his Father's kingdom come upon the earth. (Mt 6:19 “This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, Let your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven...."

Now obviously you have a difficulty with Jesus' testimony. (What else would we expect of the effluent of American society. The pentecostal oneness hillbilly cult who are pretend Christians who deny the Father, and the distinction between the only begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the Father alone, but is sent to us by the Son). Compared to your effluence, you make the JWs look almost Christian Orthodox in their aberrant teaching...

______________________

For the nth time (is this the 18h time?)...your cowardise in not affirming standard (universal) Christian belief you prove yourself not a Christian. What are you? A Muslim, pretending to be a Christian? Reveal your beliefs! So far you are simply coming across as some pugnacious child who has no comprehension of standard Christianity...

"Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)"

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your cowardice and your continuous refusal (now about 18 times) to respond to such a simple Christian testimony, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject Christianity...and instead adhere to some aberrant and heretical teaching....

foudroyant
08-12-2014, 06:20 AM
I will concede that supplication is an asking of someone in absolute authority to grant something (by definition it is a prayer that can be delivered to men, angels, god/s or whoever has the power of life or death over you.

That is not the sense of prayer I pointed out in Posts 1-3.
Myriads of people, all at the same time and done in complete silence can pray to the Lord Jesus and He will fully understand them.
This doesn't apply to any other besides God.

Still waiting then for your passage where the Lord Jesus can be supplicated today but it isn't praying to Him.

apostoli
08-12-2014, 06:43 AM
That is not the sense of prayer I pointed out in Posts 1-3.
Myriads of people, all at the same time and done in complete silence can pray to the Lord Jesus and He will fully understand them.
This doesn't apply to any other besides God.

Still waiting then for your passage where the Lord Jesus can be supplicated today but it isn't praying to Him.If you weren't so illiterate you would have noted that I admitted that supplication is a "prayer" delivered to men, angels, god/s or whoever has the power of life or death over you. (See Deuteronomy where YHWH defines himself in those exact terms. Also see Exodus and the purpose of Moses' spurious sacrifices).

What I believe you are missing, in the aberrant teaching, of the aberrant church you attend, is God (the God and father of Jesus Christ) is there is no other autotheos, other than the Father of Jesus Christ. As Jesus puts it (Jn 20:17) "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Now, by Jesus' own witness, via our only eye witness, he, himself, has a GOD!!! A.Paul makes the same point in 1 Cor 15:28!!!

______________________

For the nth time (this is the 19h time!)...your cowardise in not affirming standard (universal) Christian belief you prove yourself not a Christian. What are you? A Muslim, pretending to be a Christian? Reveal your beliefs! So far you are simply coming across as some pugnacious child who has no comprehension of standard Christianity...

"Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)"

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your cowardice and your continuous refusal (19 times) to respond to such a simple Christian testimony, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject Christianity...and instead adhere to some aberrant and heretical teaching....

foudroyant
08-12-2014, 06:48 AM
See first sentence in my previous post.

apostoli
08-12-2014, 07:55 AM
See first sentence in my previous post.Obviously, you reject Jesus' and Christian testimony... Orthodox Christians (RCC,ROC,EOC,OOC etc), do not pray for Jesus' kingdom to come (according to Jesus), but that his Father's will be done on earth and his Father's kingdom come upon the earth. (Mt 6:19 “This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, Let your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven....

I'll have to assume you adhere to one of the get rich quick churches (almost always one of the oneness pentecostal churches). As I said earlier, prayer is not an asking occupation (a supplication) but in Christian belief it is a thanksgiving....or more particularly an expectation of the Father's faithfullness to the Son through the Holy Spirit...

______________________

For the nth time (this is the 20h time!)...your cowardise in not affirming standard (universal) Christian belief you prove yourself not a Christian. What are you? A Muslim, pretending to be a Christian, or a Oneness believer who defies the Christian Bible? Reveal your beliefs! So far you are simply coming across as some pugnacious child who has no comprehension of standard Christianity...

"Questions arise: Do you ascribe to the Nicene Creed or reject it? Do you believe that before his incarnation the Son was begotten by his Father, not made, God from God? Do you believe that the Son is a distinct entity/individual from his Father? Do you believe the scripture's account that the Son was incarnated not of his own volition but was sent by his Father? Do you believe that in the end of times the Son will share his Father's throne, at the will of the Father? Do you believe, as A.Paul certainly did, that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead? Do you believe, as the apostles John & Paul certainly did, that all Jesus did was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)"

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your cowardice and your continuous refusal (20 times) to respond to such a simple Christian testimony, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject Christianity...and instead adhere to some aberrant and heretical teaching....

foudroyant
08-12-2014, 08:30 AM
See Post #60.

apostoli
08-14-2014, 01:22 AM
See Post #60.Obviously, you reject Jesus' and Christian testimony... Orthodox Christians (RCC,ROC,EOC,OOC etc), do not pray for Jesus' kingdom to come (according to Jesus), but that his Father's will be done on earth and his Father's kingdom come upon the earth. (Mt 6:19 “This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, Let your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven....

I'll have to assume you adhere to one of the get rich quick (pretend) churches (almost always one of the oneness pentecostal churches). As I said earlier, prayer is not an asking occupation but in Christian belief it is a thanksgiving....or more particularly an experience of the Father's faithfulness to the Son through the Holy Spirit...

______________________

I've given you 20 chances to aspire to Christian belief...your cowardise in not affirming standard (universal) Christian belief you prove yourself not a Christian. The most obvious conclusion is you are a oneness believer who defies the Christian Bible? (A believer in a sect that arose in Rome in the 200s CE and was quickly discarded)! Continuously you are coming across as some pugnacious child who has no comprehension of standard Christianity... You don't impress me, and I doubt anyone else. Simply put...You don't have an argument!!!! I only converse with you, because your arrogant ignorance keeps me amused...

Let us summarise your denials of the Christian faith:

1. You reject the teaching of the Nicene Creed, even though it has been reaffirmed continuously by the majority churches since at least 325CE.

2. You reject that Jesus was begotten of the Father, not made, God from God.

3. You reject that the Son is a distinct entity/individual/person from his Father. (You assume, despite the testimony of scripture, that the Father and Son are simply fabrications of the same person).

4. You believe the Son was incarnated, as a phantasm, not a real person, who obviously, as being such, could not die on the cross.

5. As you believe the Father and the Son are simply manifestations of the same person, then obviously you reject the witness of the NT, and most particularly reject A.John's testimony in the book of Revelation. Which is most strange! Given A.John, in his vision. has it that, in the end of times, the Son shares his Father's throne.

6. You reject A.Paul's testimony that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead! ((Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; Rom. 4:24; 6:4; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Col. 2:12; Rom 8:11).

7. You reject A.John's & A.Paul's inspired testimony, that all Jesus did, including his death and resurrection, was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your cowardice and your continuous refusal (20 times) to respond to the simple Christian (universal) testimony I presented to you, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject mainstream and orthodox Christianity...

So it greatly amuses me that in your absolute ignorance you would dare to persecute the JWs, given you are standing on very thin ice in your apostasy...(defiance against mainstream Christian teaching).

foudroyant
08-14-2014, 06:17 AM
See Post #66.

apostoli
08-14-2014, 08:33 AM
See Post #66.OK! We have now firmly established you reject all the teachings of the Orthodox and established church!!! You have incriminated yourself repetitively, and therefore totally ignorable!!! But as I said many posts ago, there is no way I will let you off the hook...You in your aberrancy of standard Christian (Trinitarian) belief have revealed your apostasy and your denial of Jesus Christ (not to mention the witness of the majority of scripture).

Obviously, you reject Jesus' and Christian testimony... Orthodox Christians (RCC,ROC,EOC,OOC etc), do not pray for Jesus' kingdom to come (according to Jesus), but that his Father's will be done on earth and his Father's kingdom come upon the earth. (Mt 6:19 “This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, Let your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven....

I'll have to assume you adhere to one of the get rich quick (pretend) churches (almost always one of the oneness pentecostal churches). As I said earlier, prayer is not an asking occupation but in Christian belief it is a thanksgiving....or more particularly an experience of the Father's faithfulness to the Son through the Holy Spirit...

______________________

I gave you 20 chances to aspire to Christian belief...your cowardise in not affirming standard (universal) Christian belief proves your are not a Christian. The most obvious conclusion is you are a oneness believer who defies the Christian Bible? (A believer in a sect that arose in Rome in the 200s CE and was quickly discarded)! Continuously you are coming across as some pugnacious child who has no comprehension of standard Christianity...let alone comprehensive civility. You don't impress me, and I doubt anyone else.

Simply put! You don't have a plausible argument!!!!

______________________

Let us, again, summarise your denials of the standard/orthodox Christian faith:

1. You reject the teaching of the Nicene Creed, even though it has been reaffirmed continuously by the majority churches since at least 325CE.

2. You reject that Jesus was begotten of the Father, not made, God from God.

3. You reject that the Son is a distinct entity/individual/person from his Father. (You assume, despite the testimony of scripture, that the Father and Son are simply fabrications of the same person).

4. You believe the Son was incarnated, as a phantasm, not a real person, who obviously, as being such, could not die on the cross.

5. As you believe the Father and the Son are simply manifestations of the same person, then obviously you reject the witness of the NT, and most particularly reject A.John's testimony in the book of Revelation. Which is most strange! Given A.John, in his vision. has it that, in the end of times, the Son shares his Father's throne.

6. You reject A.Paul's testimony that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead! ((Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; Rom. 4:24; 6:4; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Col. 2:12; Rom 8:11).

7. You reject A.John's & A.Paul's inspired testimony, that all Jesus did, including his death and resurrection, was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your attempted diversions, not to mention the transparancy of your cowardice through your continuous refusal (20 times) to respond to the simple Christian (universal) testimony I presented to you, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject mainstream and orthodox Christianity...

So it greatly amuses me that in your absolute ignorance you would dare to persecute the JWs, given you are drowning in your delusional apostasy.

It grieves me that you are so anti-Christ, that you reject his teaching, his disciples teaching, the apostles teaching and the teaching of mainstream Christianity (RCC,ROC,EOC,OCC,CoE,Lutherans etc etc)...

foudroyant
08-14-2014, 10:25 AM
See Post #68.

apostoli
08-14-2014, 08:51 PM
See Post #68.It is plainly obvious you do not subscribe to any form of Christianity...

Let us, again, summarise your denials of the standard/orthodox Christian faith:

1. You reject the teaching of the Nicene Creed, even though it has been reaffirmed continuously by the majority churches since at least 325CE.

2. You reject that Jesus was begotten of the Father, not made, God from God.

3. You reject that the Son is a distinct entity/individual/person from his Father. (You assume, despite the testimony of scripture, that the Father and Son are simply fabrications of the same person).

4. You believe the Son was incarnated, as a phantasm, not a real person, who obviously, as being such, could not die on the cross.

5. As you believe the Father and the Son are simply manifestations of the same person, then obviously you reject the witness of the NT, and most particularly reject A.John's testimony in the book of Revelation. Which is most strange! Given A.John, in his vision. has it that, in the end of times, the Son shares his Father's throne.

6. You reject A.Paul's testimony that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead! ((Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; Rom. 4:24; 6:4; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Col. 2:12; Rom 8:11).

7. You reject A.John's & A.Paul's inspired testimony, that all Jesus did, including his death and resurrection, was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your attempted diversions, not to mention the transparancy of your cowardice through your continuous refusal (20 times) to respond to the simple Christian (universal) testimony I presented to you, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject mainstream and orthodox Christianity...

So it greatly amuses me that in your absolute ignorance you would dare to persecute the JWs, given you are drowning in your delusional apostasy.

It grieves me that you are so anti-Christ, that you reject his teaching, his disciples teaching, the apostles teaching and the teaching of mainstream Christianity (RCC,ROC,EOC,OCC,CoE,Lutherans etc etc)...

_________________

ps grasshopper: Get a concordance and discover the difference between proseuchē and deēsis then you might be able to formulate an argument...

foudroyant
08-14-2014, 10:07 PM
I think there is something wrong with you.

apostoli
08-15-2014, 07:34 AM
I think there is something wrong with you.I know there is something wrong with you!!!! Possibly a bit too much weed????

In any case we have established over a lengthy period of time your total rejection of Christian belief...

_________________________

It is plainly obvious you do not subscribe to any form of Christianity...

Let us, again, summarise your denials of the standard/orthodox Christian faith:

1. You reject the teaching of the Nicene Creed, even though it has been reaffirmed continuously by the majority churches since at least 325CE.

2. You reject that Jesus was begotten of the Father, not made, God from God.

3. You reject that the Son is a distinct entity/individual/person from his Father. (You assume, despite the testimony of scripture, that the Father and Son are simply fabrications of the same person).

4. You believe the Son was incarnated, as a phantasm, not a real person, who obviously, as being such, could not die on the cross.

5. As you believe the Father and the Son are simply manifestations of the same person, then obviously you reject the witness of the NT, and most particularly reject A.John's testimony in the book of Revelation. Which is most strange! Given A.John, in his vision. has it that, in the end of times, the Son shares his Father's throne.

6. You reject A.Paul's testimony that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead! ((Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; Rom. 4:24; 6:4; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Col. 2:12; Rom 8:11).

7. You reject A.John's & A.Paul's inspired testimony, that all Jesus did, including his death and resurrection, was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your attempted diversions, not to mention the transparancy of your cowardice through your continuous refusal (20 times) to respond to the simple Christian (universal) testimony I presented to you, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject mainstream and orthodox Christianity...

So it greatly amuses me that in your absolute ignorance you would dare to persecute the JWs, given you are drowning in your delusional apostasy.

It grieves me that you are so anti-Christ, that you reject his teaching, his disciples teaching, the apostles teaching and the teaching of mainstream Christianity (RCC,ROC,EOC,OCC,CoE,Lutherans etc etc)...

_________________

ps grasshopper: Get a concordance and discover the difference between proseuchē and deēsis then you might be able to formulate an argument...

foudroyant
08-15-2014, 06:31 PM
See Post #60.

apostoli
08-17-2014, 06:39 PM
See Post #60.By your own witness, we have established over a lengthy period of time your total rejection of Christian belief...

It is plainly obvious you do not subscribe to any form of Orthodox or Mainstream Christianity...

Let us, again, summarise your denials of the standard/orthodox/mainstream Christian faith:

1. You reject the teaching of the Nicene Creed, even though it has been reaffirmed continuously by the majority churches since at least 325CE.

2. You reject that Jesus was begotten of the Father, not made, God from God.

3. You reject that the Son is a distinct entity/individual/person from his Father. (You assume, despite the testimony of scripture, that the Father and Son are simply fabrications of the same person).

4. You believe the Son was incarnated, as a phantasm, not a real person, who obviously, as being such, could not die on the cross.

5. As you believe the Father and the Son are simply manifestations of the same person, then obviously you reject the witness of the NT, and most particularly reject A.John's testimony in the book of Revelation. Which is most strange! Given A.John, in his vision. has it that, in the end of times, the Son shares his Father's throne.

6. You reject A.Paul's testimony that God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead! ((Acts 2:24, 32; 3:15, 26; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30, 33, 34, 37; Rom. 4:24; 6:4; 10:9; 1 Cor. 6:14; Gal. 1:1; Col. 2:12; Rom 8:11).

7. You reject A.John's & A.Paul's inspired testimony, that all Jesus did, including his death and resurrection, was for the glorification of his Father (cp. Jn 17, Phil 2)

It is obvious to all viewers, that in your attempted diversions, not to mention the transparency of your cowardice through your continuous refusal (20 times) to respond to the simple Christian (universal) testimony I presented to you, that in your avoidance of the most elementary beliefs of Christianity, that you reject mainstream and orthodox Christianity...

So it greatly amuses me that in your absolute ignorance you would dare to persecute the JWs, given you are drowning in your delusional apostasy.

It grieves me that you are so anti-Christ, that you reject his teaching, his disciples teaching, the apostles teaching and the teaching of mainstream Christianity (RCC,ROC,EOC,OCC,CoE,Lutherans etc etc)...

foudroyant
08-17-2014, 08:02 PM
I think you should summarize it again just so you are clear in your delusions.

Bibleuser
12-20-2017, 05:05 PM
A. The Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Lord Jesus is not God and so therefore should never be worshiped.
1. Reverent adoration should be expressed only to God. To render worship to anyone or anything else would be a form of idolatry...True Christians do well to direct their worship only to Jehovah God, the Almighty (Awake! April 8, 2000, page 26+27). Since "every prayer is a form of worship" (The Watchtower, December 15, 1994, page 23) this would mean that praying to the Lord Jesus is not allowed.




TO WORSHIP JESUS AS GOD IS TO WORSHIP AN “ICON”!

A visit to almost any place of worship will reveal how many religious people have elevated creatures (humans or otherwise) above the Creator. How so? By their image and icon veneration and their worship rendered to Saints, Madonnas, Crosses, some with and images of Jesus. (See Psalm 115:2-8; 2 Corinthians 5:7; 1 John 5:21).



The PAUL states of Jesus Christ at 2 Cor. 4:4:

“… that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image (Gk.“eikon”) of God, might not shine through.”



Colossians 1:15 He is the image (Gk.“eikon”) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;


“icon n. (also ikon) 1 painting of Christ etc., esp. in the Eastern Church. 2 image or statue. 3 symbol on a VDU screen of a program, option, or window, esp. for selection. iconic adj. [Greek eikon image].”-Oxford Dictionary

“image —n. 1 representation of an object, e.g. a statue. 2 reputation or persona of a person, company, etc. 3 appearance as seen in a mirror or through a lens. 4 mental picture or idea. 5 simile or metaphor. —v. (-ging) 1 make an image of; portray. 2 reflect, mirror. 3 describe or imagine vividly. be the image of be or look exactly like. [Latin imago imagin-].”-Oxford Dictionary


WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT IMAGE OR ICON WORSHIP!

Exodus 20:4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth.

Deut 27:15 “‘Cursed is the man who makes a carved image or a molten statue, a thing detestable to Jehovah, the manufacture of the hands of a wood-and-metal worker, and who has put it in a hiding place.’

Isa. 42:8 “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.



The Point! If humans worship Jesus Christ then they worship an “image” (Gk. eikon) a “representation” a “copy” etc. which is idolatry:-

1 John 5:21 “Little children, guard yourselves from idols.”

BU

tabibito
12-20-2017, 10:06 PM
TO WORSHIP JESUS AS GOD IS TO WORSHIP AN “ICON”!

A visit to almost any place of worship will reveal how many religious people have elevated creatures (humans or otherwise) above the Creator. How so? By their image and icon veneration and their worship rendered to Saints, Madonnas, Crosses, some with and images of Jesus. (See Psalm 115:2-8; 2 Corinthians 5:7; 1 John 5:21).



The PAUL states of Jesus Christ at 2 Cor. 4:4:

“… that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image (Gk.“eikon”) of God, might not shine through.”



Colossians 1:15 He is the image (Gk.“eikon”) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;


“icon n. (also ikon) 1 painting of Christ etc., esp. in the Eastern Church. 2 image or statue. 3 symbol on a VDU screen of a program, option, or window, esp. for selection. iconic adj. [Greek eikon image].”-Oxford Dictionary

“image —n. 1 representation of an object, e.g. a statue. 2 reputation or persona of a person, company, etc. 3 appearance as seen in a mirror or through a lens. 4 mental picture or idea. 5 simile or metaphor. —v. (-ging) 1 make an image of; portray. 2 reflect, mirror. 3 describe or imagine vividly. be the image of be or look exactly like. [Latin imago imagin-].”-Oxford Dictionary


WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT IMAGE OR ICON WORSHIP!

Exodus 20:4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth.

Deut 27:15 “‘Cursed is the man who makes a carved image or a molten statue, a thing detestable to Jehovah, the manufacture of the hands of a wood-and-metal worker, and who has put it in a hiding place.’

Isa. 42:8 “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.



The Point! If humans worship Jesus Christ then they worship an “image” (Gk. eikon) a “representation” a “copy” etc. which is idolatry:-

1 John 5:21 “Little children, guard yourselves from idols.”

BU

Hebrews 1: 5 For to which of the angels did God2 ever say, “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”? 6 And again, when he brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

So then - God commands that the angels commit idolatry? I find that kind of hard to believe.

Christianbookworm
12-21-2017, 03:02 PM
Jesus didn't exactly keep His divine identity a secret. Remember that passage where Jesus treats a life threatening storm at sea as a minor inconvenience by telling it to be still and it ceases? The disciples realized that Jesus had to be divine due to onlly God doing something like that in the Old Testament.

Jedidiah
12-21-2017, 03:10 PM
Jesus didn't exactly keep His divine identity a secret. Remember that passage where Jesus treats a life threatening storm at sea as a minor inconvenience by telling it to be still and it ceases? The disciples realized that Jesus had to be divine due to onlly God doing something like that in the Old Testament.

JWs see Jesus as a sort of demigod. He is/was the incarnation of the angel Michael. After His death he went back to being an angel and his human body was put into eternal storage so it would never decay, as scripture describes.

tabibito
12-21-2017, 10:48 PM
JWs see Jesus as a sort of demigod. He is/was the incarnation of the angel Michael. After His death he went back to being an angel and his human body was put into eternal storage so it would never decay, as scripture describes.

That's just weird. OT identifies the archangel Michael as God himself. Gen 32: 24-30

Chrawnus
12-21-2017, 11:07 PM
That's just weird. OT identifies the archangel Michael as God himself. Gen 32: 24-30

I think you're making some kind of unstated assumption here, because I don't see it. Jacob wrestles with a man who he afterwards identifies with God, but I don't see where the any connection is made between that man/God and the archangel Michael.

tabibito
12-21-2017, 11:18 PM
I think you're making some kind of unstated assumption here, because I don't see it. Jacob wrestles with a man who he afterwards identifies with God, but I don't see where the any connection is made between that man/God and the archangel Michael.

I stand corrected. (yet again)

Chrawnus
12-21-2017, 11:24 PM
I stand corrected. (yet again)

:shrug:

I mean, if you believe like I do that the Angel of the LORD in the OT is, at least in some cases, God the Son in pre-incarnate form you could make the case that Jacob wrestled with the Angel of the LORD/the Son, but that's still not the same as person as Michael. :smile:

tabibito
12-22-2017, 02:58 AM
I'll accept the OT record as valid and correct unless proven otherwise, and that people who declared that they had seen God knew what they were talking about (with the same caveat). So yes - Jake met God, but in the seeming of a man, and no mention of an actual name.