Luke 21 Fulfillment?

[InChristAlways]

Hi InChrist:

Be careful in stating this truth so clearly in front of your Preterist partners on this and other threads. You have accepted a simple truth that proves the impossibility of their ‘already fulfilled’ interpretation for a large portion of Scripture.

Of course Christ came to fulfill much of the Law, prophets and Psalms (Luke 24:44) written specifically about Him. Our discussion on this thread is about Prophecies that Christ Himself made in Matthew 24, and that John presents as ‘prophecy’ in the Book of Revelation. The disciples asked about ‘His coming’ (Matt. 24:3) in the singular, and that most certainly did not happen in 70 Ad. His coming in ‘glory’ (Matt. 24:30) is described by Him in Matthew 25:31, as part of the Judgment of the nations that occurs in Revelation 20:11-15. Both of those events are still future. The deception of the ‘man of sin’ (2Thes. 2:3+4) is described by John in the last half of Revelation, along with the deception and delusion Christ describes in Matthew 24:3-31. The great battle of Armageddon is part of the Great Tribulation that occurs in Christ’s story of the ‘end of the age.’ That is why you see that battle with the beast, false prophet (Rev. 19:20) and Satan (Rev. 20:10) going into the lake of fire directly afterwards. I am not as concerned with assigning one part of John’s prophecy to Daniel, Ezekiel or Joel, when he is describing the fulfillment of all of them.

In Christ,

Terral I decided to start this topic on Luke 21 as this was being discussed on another thread and felt it might deserve its own discussion. The above is a quote from a poster on the "preterist dabate" thread after I had told him I concede the gospels and NT as being "future" since they were not yet "written" when Jesus spoke this famous passage.
But the OT scripture were WRITTEN before Jesus said this, even quoting Jonah and Daniel, in which case any scripture from the OT put under this passage would have to be fulfilled. (see also my thread on the "day of the Lord..How Many?"
What are others views on this? Let the "battle" begin!!! God bless.

luke 21: 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that ALL things which are WRITTEN may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Daniel 12:7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who [was] above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that for a time, times, and half [a time;] and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these [things] shall be finished.

deut:[i]6 " For you [are] a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth.

[Terral]

Hi InChrist:
InChrist >> I decided to start this topic on Luke 21 as this was being discussed on another thread and felt it might deserve its own discussion. The above is a quote from a poster on the "preterist dabate" thread after I had told him I concede the gospels and NT as being "future" since they were not yet "written" when Jesus spoke this famous passage.
Christ spoke these things in about 30 Ad and the earliest of our canonized Gospel accounts was written by Mark almost 30 years later. While the actual events of the Four Gospels occurred decades before NT Scripture was written, our focus on the Preterist Debate thread is upon those prophetic statements from Christ and others which MUST be still future. Our discussion was over the point that the Book of Revelation was written between 90 and 100 Ad, and could not possibly be fulfilled in 70 Ad. Your Luke 21 quotes contain the same information as Matthew 24 concerning the ‘end of the age.’ Matt. 24:3-31.

"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains [ Matt. 24:16 ], and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant [ Matt. 24:19 ] and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress [ Matt. 24:21 ] upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. There will be signs in sun and moon and stars [ Matt. 24:29 ], and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves.”
All of these are ‘end of the age’ events that shall occur just before Christ’s return (Matt. 24:30) to shorten those days. We already know that Daniel saw these days, by Christ’s reference in Matthew 24:15. That in no way proves that these things have occurred already, as Christ told you that He does not know the time. Matt. 24:36.
InChrist >> But the OT scripture were WRITTEN before Jesus said this, even quoting Jonah and Daniel, in which case any scripture from the OT put under this passage would have to be fulfilled.
No sir. Christ refers to Daniel’s prophecy about the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Dan. 12:11) in Matthew 24:15, which occurs at the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3). He is not talking about the destruction of the Temple in this verse, but to the ‘man of sin’ taking ‘his seat’ in the Temple “displaying himself as being God.” 2Thes. 2:4. This is all part of the beast being worshipped and people taking the number of his name (Rev. 13:17) to their own destruction. The Romans of 70 Ad never used the Temple to perpetuate this deception that Nero was God, or anybody else. They never gave everybody a number so that only those people could buy and sell. All of that ‘mark of the beast’ prophecy business is still future. The technology to fulfill the Prophecy was not even available 2000 years ago. When John wrote this book of prophecy, Jerusalem was already leveled and there was no Temple in Jerusalem. How anyone can confuse these ‘end of the age’ events with what the Romans did 2000 years ago is beyond me.

In Christ,

Terral

[eschaton]

Hi InChrist:

Christ spoke these things in about 30 Ad and the earliest of our canonized Gospel accounts was written by Mark almost 30 years later. While the actual events of the Four Gospels occurred decades before NT Scripture was written, our focus on the Preterist Debate thread is upon those prophetic statements from Christ and others which MUST be still future. Our discussion was over the point that the Book of Revelation was written between 90 and 100 Ad, and could not possibly be fulfilled in 70 Ad. Your Luke 21 quotes contain the same information as Matthew 24 concerning the ‘end of the age.’ Matt. 24:3-31.

"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains [ Matt. 24:16 ], and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant [ Matt. 24:19 ] and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress [ Matt. 24:21 ] upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. There will be signs in sun and moon and stars [ Matt. 24:29 ], and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves.”
All of these are ‘end of the age’ events that shall occur just before Christ’s return (Matt. 24:30) to shorten those days. We already know that Daniel saw these days, by Christ’s reference in Matthew 24:15. That in no way proves that these things have occurred already, as Christ told you that He does not know the time. Matt. 24:36.

No sir. Christ refers to Daniel’s prophecy about the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Dan. 12:11) in Matthew 24:15, which occurs at the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3). He is not talking about the destruction of the Temple in this verse, but to the ‘man of sin’ taking ‘his seat’ in the Temple “displaying himself as being God.” 2Thes. 2:4. This is all part of the beast being worshipped and people taking the number of his name (Rev. 13:17) to their own destruction. The Romans of 70 Ad never used the Temple to perpetuate this deception that Nero was God, or anybody else. They never gave everybody a number so that only those people could buy and sell. All of that ‘mark of the beast’ prophecy business is still future. The technology to fulfill the Prophecy was not even available 2000 years ago. When John wrote this book of prophecy, Jerusalem was already leveled and there was no Temple in Jerusalem. How anyone can confuse these ‘end of the age’ events with what the Romans did 2000 years ago is beyond me.

In Christ,

Terral


It might be worth considering what some in the early church taught about prophecy.

A contemporary of Augustine,Tyconius the Donatist, wrote the "Book of Rules" for Bible interpretation
in 380 AD. He also wrote a highly regarded interpretation of the book of Revelation.

He went to some length to prove that the "man of sin," of 2 Thess. is actually
the earthly Jerusalem of Galatians 4:25. This is in the same way
that preterists take 1 John 2:18 to mean that there is not a single
antichrist, but many. And in the way the church is the body of
Christ (1Cor 12:27), so the earthly Jerusalem is the "man of sin."
This makes sense to me.

However, he also said;

>Daniel says the following about a king of the end time: "In God will
his place be glorified" [cf. Dan. 11:38], that is made famous. This
king will secretly establish something like a church in the place of
the church, in the holy place; an "abomination of devastation" [Matt
24:15] in God, that is, in the church.<
(Biblical Interpretation in the Early Church - by Karlfried Froehlich)

It seems Tyconius also expected some parts of Daniel to be literally
fulfilled in his future. He expected a king to establish a false
substitute church in the end time.

More importantly, to me anyway, he said the following.

>In its head, therefore the Body is the Son of God, and in his Body
God is the Son of Man who comes daily through a birth and "grows into
God's holy temple" [Eph.2:21] Now the temple itself is bipartite.
Its second part, though built of large stones, suffers destruction;
in it, "not one stone will be left upon the other" [Matt 24:2]. We
must beware of its continual coming until the church departs from its
midst.<

Tyconius interpreted the temple of Matthew 24 as the church.
Augustine himself wrote the following about 2 Thess. ii. 1-11:

No one can doubt that he wrote this of Antichrist and of the day of judgment, which he here calls the day of the Lord, nor that he declared that this day should not come unless he first came who is called the apostate -apostate, to wit, from the Lord God. And if this may justly be said of all the ungodly, how much more of him? But it is uncertain in what temple he shall sit, whether in that ruin of the temple which was built by Solomon, or in the Church; for the apostle would not call the temple of any idol or demon the temple of God. And on this account some think that in this passage Antichrist means not the prince himself alone, but his whole body, that is, the mass of men who adhere to him, along with him their prince; and they also think that we should render the Greek more exactly were we to read, not "in the temple of God," but "for" or "as the temple of God," as if he himself were the temple of God, the Church. (The City of God, Book XX, Chapter 19)

[InChristAlways]

Thanks Eschaton and Terral,
But you quoted almost all NT scripture which wasn't WRITTEN while Jesus was Preaching the gospel.
This would mean that ALL OT WRITTEN scripture would be fulfilled on the destruction of Jerusalem in that AGE, so if all the OT scripture was fulfilled, then that means none of the NT was fulfilled on the destrutction of Jerusalem. Interesting. Thanks for the replies. God bless.But the OT scripture were WRITTEN before Jesus said this, even quoting Jonah and Daniel, in which case any scripture from the OT put under this passage would have to be fulfilled. (see also my thread on the "day of the Lord..How Many?")
What are others views on this? Let the "battle" begin!!! God bless.
luke 21: 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that ALL things which are WRITTEN may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Would this event in revelation be the first half of Daniel's 70th week fulfilled??

reve 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

And wouldn't this be the SAME TEMPLE standing when He was taken up? And who are the worshippers being measured?

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

[eschaton]

Thanks Eschaton and Terral,
But you quoted almost all NT scripture which wasn't WRITTEN while Jesus was Preaching the gospel.
This would mean that ALL OT WRITTEN scripture would be fulfilled on the destruction of Jerusalem in that AGE, so if all the OT scripture was fulfilled, then that means none of the NT was fulfilled on the destrutction of Jerusalem. Interesting. Thanks for the replies. God bless.luke 21: 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that ALL things which are WRITTEN may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Would this event in revelation be the first half of Daniel's 70th week fulfilled??

reve 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Hi,

I'm not sure I'm understanding you, but I went through your other thread on the Day of the Lord. You said:

>>Christ said in Luke 21 that ALL things WRITTEN would be fulfilled on the detruction of Jerusalem. <<

Is this why you were saying all OT scriptures had been fulfilled? Jesus also spoke of Daniel as though it hadn't been fulfilled you know. But I think you missed the point of my post about what some of the early church that were "spiritual" rather than "literal" interpreters believed. They believed Jerusalem and the temple symbolized the church. That is what some of the OT prophecies were referring to. The church, regardless of its state now, hasn't faced the destruction prophesied. Not that I'm aware of anyway. So the time of Jerusalem's destruction hasn't come yet. So therefore, all things written haven't been fulfilled yet, regardless of when it was written.

Alan

[InChristAlways]

Hi,

I'm not sure I'm understanding you, but I went through your other thread on the Day of the Lord. You said:

>>Christ said in Luke 21 that ALL things WRITTEN would be fulfilled on the detruction of Jerusalem. <<

Is this why you were saying all OT scriptures had been fulfilled? Jesus also spoke of Daniel as though it hadn't been fulfilled you know. But I think you missed the point of my post about what some of the early church that were "spiritual" rather than "literal" interpreters believed. They believed Jerusalem and the temple symbolized the church. That is what some of the OT prophecies were referring to. The church, regardless of its state now, hasn't faced the destruction prophesied. Not that I'm aware of anyway. So the time of Jerusalem's destruction hasn't come yet. So therefore, all things written haven't been fulfilled yet, regardless of when it was written.

AlanLuke 21 says ALL THINGS WRITTEN would be fulfilled upon the the wrath upon THOSE PEOPLE, not us. So please put any OT scripture under Luke 21 and if it is not fulfilled, then there is a MAJOR CONTRADICTION in the Bible I believe. God bless.

This would mean that ALL OT WRITTEN scripture would be fulfilled on the destruction of Jerusalem in that AGE, so if all the OT scripture was fulfilled, then does that means none of the NT was fulfilled on the destrutction of Jerusalem????. Interesting. Thanks for the replies. God bless.

luke 21: 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that ALL things which are WRITTEN may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Would this event in revelation be the first half of Daniel's 70th week fulfilled??

reve 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

[Bill the Cat]

ICA,

Do you believe all prophecy has been fulfilled? To include all NT prophecy? If not, which ones remain?

[eschaton]

Luke 21 says ALL THINGS WRITTEN would be fulfilled upon the the wrath upon THOSE PEOPLE, not us. So please put any OT scripture under Luke 21 and if it is not fulfilled, then there is a MAJOR CONTRADICTION in the Bible I believe. God bless.

This would mean that ALL OT WRITTEN scripture would be fulfilled on the destruction of Jerusalem in that AGE, so if all the OT scripture was fulfilled, then does that means none of the NT was fulfilled on the destrutction of Jerusalem????. Interesting. Thanks for the replies. God bless.

.

ICA,

Who is "those people," and "that age"? I'm familiar with the "this generation" argument, but the early church didn't buy it because they weren't literalists.

Alan

[Terral]

Eschaton:

The first reading of your post above left me wondering just what you believe to be the right interpretation of the verses you cite. Your original hypothesis concerning the fulfillment of the events of Luke 21 (Matthew 24) appears to be missing from your presentation. At the very start you appear to admit that our consideration of these things ‘might’ be worth something, and perhaps not.
Eschaton >> It might be worth considering what some in the early church taught about prophecy. A contemporary of Augustine,Tyconius the Donatist, wrote the "Book of Rules" for Bible interpretation in 380 AD. He also wrote a highly regarded interpretation of the book of Revelation. He went to some length to prove that the "man of sin," of 2 Thess. is actually the earthly Jerusalem of Galatians 4:25.
That kind of interpretation is beyond the realm of common biblical sense or anything logical that one might assume. Let’s look at the verses again:

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.”
No sir. The ‘beast’ (Rev. 13:1) is coming into the world very near the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+15) to deceive humanity into believing he is God Himself.

“And the dragon [ Satan loosed; Rev. 20:7 ] stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast [ man of sin ] coming up out of the sea [ humanity; particularly out of ‘Israel’ ], having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne [ his seat in the Temple of God ] and great authority.”
John writes that “All who dwell on the earth will worship him” whose name is not in the Lamb’s book of life. Rev. 13:8. Satan and his ‘son of destruction’ (beast) are not coming to destroy the Temple. They have great need of the most Holy Place on earth in order to perpetuate their deception upon the entire world. Think about this very carefully: Who would believe this beast is God, if he comes along and destroys the Temple of God? NOBODY. He is coming to make desolate all those who take the mark of the beast, as part of the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matt. 24:15).

“Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.”
Eschaton >> This is in the same way that preterists take 1 John 2:18 to mean that there is not a single antichrist, but many. And in the way the church is the body of Christ (1Cor 12:27), so the earthly Jerusalem is the "man of sin." This makes sense to me.
People can make Scripture say just about anything. However, Paul begins describing the ‘man of sin’ by saying, “Let no one in any way deceive you . . .” (2Thes. 2:3). No sir. Paul is speaking frankly about the coming of this ‘man’ of sin and ‘son’ of destruction a literal person, “so that in his time he will be revealed.” 2Thes. 2:6.
Eschaton >> . . . In its head, therefore the Body is the Son of God, and in his Body God is the Son of Man who comes daily through a birth and "grows into God's holy temple" [Eph.2:21] Now the temple itself is bipartite. Its second part, though built of large stones, suffers destruction; in it, "not one stone will be left upon the other" [Matt 24:2]. We must beware of its continual coming until the church departs from its midst.
The point you are making here has some merit, if you make application to the ‘mystery of lawlessness’ in 2Thes. 2:7, which is a work in progress in ‘our’ time. Paul just told you that a real live human being is coming to make himself out “God,” by taking his seat in the Temple of God (2Thes. 2:3+4). “His time” (vs. 6) is at the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+15), and just prior to the coming of Christ (Matt. 24:30). Paul is using that ‘literal’ revealing to then switch gears and teach these Thessalonians about the ‘mystery of lawlessness,’ i.e., the opposing body being built today along side the ‘body of Christ.’ Those among us who hear (Rom. 10:17) and believe (Eph. 1:13+14) Paul’s “Christ and Him crucified” (1Cor. 2:2) gospel message are baptized into the ‘one body’ (of Christ; 1Cor. 12:27), according to the ‘mystery of Christ’ (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3). The body of the antichrist is also being fashioned, but the members are those who have believed false gospel messages. That is what Paul is describing in 2Thes. 2:7-12. However, that mystery ‘body of sin’ is being fashioned right now today in our midst. Those are the people who believe themselves saved by their denominational dogma and misinterpretation of Scripture. Instead of appearing at the judgment seat of Christ here (2Cor. 5:10) for rewards, they shall appear here (Rev. 20:11-15) still standing in their sins. The ‘Mystery’ aspects of the Pauline Epistles are being revealed and fulfilled in our day. The ‘Prophecy’ aspects of Daniel (12:11), Matthew 24:15 (abomination of desolation), 2Thes. 2:3-6 (his time) and Revelation 13 (beast on his throne) all occur at the very end of the coming “thousand years” (2Pet. 3:8, Rev. 20:5) of the “day of the Lord” (2Pet. 3:10, Rev. 1:10; ‘Lord’s day’).
Eschaton >> Tyconius interpreted the temple of Matthew 24 as the church. Augustine himself wrote the following about 2 Thess. ii. 1-11:
Again that is impossible, because our ‘mystery’ church (Eph. 5:32) is ‘caught up’ (1Thes. 4:17) when the day of the Lord is “at hand.” 2Thes. 2:2. Our ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) church is taken out of the way just before that thousand year day of the Lord BEGINS. The events described in the paragraph above all occur DURING the day of the Lord, and particularly at the very end of that day. Right now we are living in the last part of the ‘mystery’ time where Christ’s body is being formed. The OT Prophets did not see our mystery gospel (Rom. 16:25), our mystery church (Eph. 5:32) or our mystery translation into immortality (1Cor. 15:51-53). The Prophets could not write about things that were ‘hidden in God’ (Eph. 3:9) to be revealed after Calvary. All of the events of Matthew 24 are part of what the prophets ‘were’ given to see, as part of ‘Prophecy.’ Your commentators are mixing together the Mystery events of the Pauline Epistles with the Prophecy events from the remainder of Scripture.
Eschaton >> No one can doubt that he wrote this of Antichrist and of the day of judgment, which he here calls the day of the Lord, nor that he declared that this day should not come unless he first came who is called the apostate -apostate, to wit, from the Lord God. And if this may justly be said of all the ungodly, how much more of him? But it is uncertain in what temple he shall sit, whether in that ruin of the temple which was built by Solomon, or in the Church; for the apostle would not call the temple of any idol or demon the temple of God.
Christ prophesied that Elijah must come first to restore all things. Matt. 17:10+11. That is when the prophecies of Ezekiel concerning the restored kingdom (Eze. 47+48) and the Temple are fulfilled. The ‘regular sacrifice’ must be started up again, so that Daniel’s prophecy about the regular sacrifice being ‘abolished’ (Dan. 12:11) can be fulfilled. Since the ‘man of sin’ is making himself into God, then he will simply command that those things be done away.
Eschaton >> And on this account some think that in this passage Antichrist means not the prince himself alone, but his whole body, that is, the mass of men who adhere to him, along with him their prince; and they also think that we should render the Greek more exactly were we to read, not "in the temple of God," but "for" or "as the temple of God," as if he himself were the temple of God, the Church. (The City of God, Book XX, Chapter 19)
No sir. Nobody is going to believe that a group of individuals is God Himself, as Paul describes this ‘son of destruction’ in 2Thes. 2:3+4. You are trying to spiritualize things that Christ (Matt. 24:15) and Paul (2Thes. 2:3-6) are describing as very literal indeed.

Has any of Luke 21 (Matt. 24) been fulfilled? No sir. All of that shall occur very near the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3-31).

In Christ,

Terral

[eschaton]

Eschaton:

The first reading of your post above left me wondering just what you believe to be the right interpretation of the verses you cite. Your original hypothesis concerning the fulfillment of the events of Luke 21 (Matthew 24) appears to be missing from your presentation. At the very start you appear to admit that our consideration of these things ‘might’ be worth something, and perhaps not.

That kind of interpretation is beyond the realm of common biblical sense or anything logical that one might assume. Let’s look at the verses again:


Hi Terral,

Thanks for asking. This will take some time. But like I said, most of the early church were not literalists. They looked at the Bible in a Christ-centered manner. They interpreted much of the scriptures allegorically or typologically. Don't take my word for it. Read some scholarly literature about how the early church interpreted the scriptures. It wasn't until about 500 years ago that philological and historical tools were given such importance.

What sense does it make for Jesus to say you must be born again? Of course that is explained in the scriptures. Is all spiritual teaching explained in a literal fashion within the scriptures themselves? Some believe so. Then why is there so much debate about what Jesus said, such as in prophecy?

Anyway, I'll try to respond to your questions in time.

Alan

[Terral]

InChrist:
InChrist >> Thanks Eschaton and Terral, But you quoted almost all NT scripture which wasn't WRITTEN while Jesus was Preaching the gospel. This would mean that ALL OT WRITTEN scripture would be fulfilled on the destruction of Jerusalem in that AGE,
Your assumption is nothing near the truth. Christ pointed back to Daniel’s reference to the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Dan. 12:11) and included those things with the events that occur at the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+15). You are under the great misconception that there has been an ‘Age shift’ since Christ spoke these words 2000 years ago. We are still living in the same ‘evil age’ (Gal. 1:4) of this ‘darkness’ (Eph. 6:12) that started way back in Genesis 1:2. Christ is the “Light” (Gen. 1:3, John 1:4) that “shines in the darkness” (John 1:5), and also casts the evil rulers of this darkness into the lake of fire. There is no ‘Age’ change, until the beast, false prophet (Rev. 19:20), Satan (Rev. 20:10) and all the other bad guys (Rev. 20:11-15) get theirs. To prove that an Age shift has occurred, you must show the new set of spiritual and moral characteristics that superseded those of the previous Age. We are still living during the Age of the aftermath of the Satanic Rebellion that caused the darkness to come into power, which caused the perfect creation of Genesis 1:1 to become broken. The New Age shall begin with the new heavens and new earth of Revelation 21:1+.
InChrist >> so if all the OT scripture was fulfilled, then that means none of the NT was fulfilled on the destrutction of Jerusalem. Interesting. Thanks for the replies. God bless.
In other words, all of our arguments can remain standing, but you will continue to believe differently anyway. We are supposed to believe a new age dawned, because the Romans leveled Jerusalem back in 70 Ad., in the same way they did countless other cities. We are also supposed to believe that God fulfilled ALL of His promised to His ‘holy nation’ and ‘chosen race’ (Exodus 19:6, 1Pet. 2:9) by destroying Jerusalem, and because you say so. You cannot say that All the OT Prophecies were fulfilled, and none of the NT were fulfilled, because they all speak to the coming ‘day of the Lord.’ Was God’s Spirit poured out on ‘All Mankind,’ as Joel prophesies in Joel 2:28? No. But, Peter used the same verses of Joel 2:28-32 in Acts 2:17-21. How can you say that Joel was fulfilled, and Peter’s same prophecies were not? Your blanket theology is riddled with error, InChrist. Every verse, sentence and passage of Scripture must be interpreted in the correct context for ‘the truth’ to be known. The right interpretation is the one that says exactly what God is saying while creating no contradictions.

In Christ,

Terral

[eschaton]

Terral,

You wrote:
>>That kind of interpretation is beyond the realm of common biblical sense or anything logical that one might assume. Let’s look at the verses again:<<

You haven't even read what Tyconnius wrote. I think it is presumptious of you to judge things you haven't even read and really don't know what they say. Will you dismiss all the views of the early church because they don't agree with your literalism?

Alan

[InChristAlways]

You cannot say that All the OT Prophecies were fulfilled, and none of the NT were fulfilled, because they all speak to the coming ‘day of the Lord.’ Was God’s Spirit poured out on ‘All Mankind,’ as Joel prophesies in Joel 2:28? No. But, Peter used the same verses of Joel 2:28-32 in Acts 2:17-21. How can you say that Joel was fulfilled, and Peter’s same prophecies were not? Your blanket theology is riddled with error, InChrist. Every verse, sentence and passage of Scripture must be interpreted in the correct context for ‘the truth’ to be known. The right interpretation is the one that says exactly what God is saying while creating no contradictions. Hmm. It would appear that in order not to have CONTRADICTIONS, we should be trying to find out what Jesus meant by this passage, that is why I am putting it up for others to look at. From a "preterist/fulfillment" standpoint that is much easier to see more things fulfilled than not being fulfilled. God bless.

luke 21: 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that ALL things which are WRITTEN may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Would this event in revelation be the first half of Daniel's 70th week fulfilled??

reve 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

This is how sites like these can flourish on the internet showing false prophecies and contradictions in the bible because "we" don't feel the need to prove what has been fulfilled and what hasn't.

http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/fprophet.html

It is a common polemical technique to insist that such prophecies 'are yet to be fulfilled' but when you actually read them you can see that the time for them to be fulfilled has long past. A similar technique is used to 'delay' the fulfillment of the prophecies concerning Babylon, but as the prophets stated, for example, Jeremiah, Babylon would be destroyed 'after the return from exile' and would be 'destroyed and ruined forever.' This did not happen, and the time frame for fulfilling the prophecy is long over. Furthermore, the 'seventy years of exile' prophecy was itself a false prophecy. Jerusalem fell in 586 B.C.E. Cyrus allowed the Jewish people to return in 539, which means that exile lasted for 47 years, not seventy as the prophecy states. That the prophecy of 'destruction of Babylon forever' after 'the seventy years of exile are over' also turned out to be a falsehood is not surprising. The statement in Chronicles is also false which states that 'the land enjoyed a Sabbath for seventy years' while the people were in exile, 'to fulfill the words of the prophet Jeremiah'.

http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html

This is really embarrassing stuff, and the church has been 'apologizing' for it ever since. I offer it for your examination to make the point that those churches should have been more critical, and that by swallowing a false prophecy they became false prophets themselves, which proves the point conclusively. Of course, there is an 'apology' for all this. What they meant to say was 'the generation that sees all these things will not pass away...' Unfortunately that is not what they said. It was clearly those disciples who were not going to pass away before the world ended. (This is another form of apologetics - force something to mean something else, and make someone say what they did not say, or rather, what you really wish they would have said, but didn't unfortunately - how embarrassing, but that is my point.)

[Terral]

Eschaton:
Eschaton >> You haven't even read what Tyconnius wrote. I think it is presumptious of you to judge things you haven't even read and really don't know what they say. Will you dismiss all the views of the early church because they don't agree with your literalism?
Commentary from a bunch of dead guys does not hold any value at all to me. Please use their arguments to build your case for whatever interpretation you desire. Jesus Christ gave His reply concerning “Your coming” and the “end of the age” (Matt. 24:3) to the disciples in Matthew 24. The Twelve asked a literal question and received a literal answer for the Son of God Himself. He knew the exact events and the order in which they would occur, but He had no clue as the ‘timing’ of when any of those things would occur. Matt. 24:36. The Twelve asked about ‘Your coming’ in the singular, and Christ describes His coming in on the clouds with His angels in glory.

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”
Christ continues His teaching about the Kingdom of heaven and His coming in the following chapter, saying,

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory [ Matt. 24:30 ], and all the angels with Him [ Matt. 24:31 ], then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.”
John describes the same Judgment in the Book of Revelation, which describes the ‘end of the age’ (evil age; Gal. 1:4) and the start of the new heavens and new earth.

“Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.”
Satan was just judged and cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:10, along with the beast and false prophet who were judged before him (Rev. 19:20). John and Christ are describing a literal coming of Christ and “one” literal Judgment of all the nations at the end of the age. If Christ came in 70 Ad., then we would be living in the new heavens and new earth right now. As anybody can CLEARLY SEE, we are still living in the old earth that has been around since Genesis 1:2. You can quote Tyconnius or anybody else if you like, but my arguments are based upon the Word of God.

In Christ,

Terral

[InChristAlways]

If Christ came in 70 Ad., then we would be living in the new heavens and new earth right now. As anybody can CLEARLY SEE, we are still living in the old earth that has been around since Genesis 1:2. You can quote Tyconnius or anybody else if you like, but my arguments are based upon the Word of God.Hi Terral. Here again, Jesus says specifically no one would ever worship in Jerusalem again. And why is that? Because Paul said the Jerusalem above was our MOTHER and that is who we are born from and are sons of. I don't profess to know all the spiritual symbolicalness of the Bible, but when I read passages such as these, it is hard not to take them spiritually instead of earthly. And again, why don't you go to this site and tell this guy why the prophets in the bible were not false and contradictory and Jesus wasn't lying to His People. Depends on how you view the "heavens and earth" in prophecy, and to me it looked more like destruction on Judah and Jerusalem than the whole World, but then that is my view and it is biblical.God bless.

http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html

gala 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children -- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.

John 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 "God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Btw, how do you view hebrew 12?

hebrew 12: 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven." 27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.

[eschaton]

Eschaton:

Commentary from a bunch of dead guys does not hold any value at all to me. Please use their arguments to build your case for whatever interpretation you desire. Jesus Christ gave His reply concerning “Your coming” and the “end of the age” (Matt. 24:3) to the disciples in Matthew 24. The Twelve asked a literal question and received a literal answer for the Son of God Himself. He knew the exact events and the order in which they would occur, but He had no clue as the ‘timing’ of when any of those things would occur. Matt. 24:36. The Twelve asked about ‘Your coming’ in the singular, and Christ describes His coming in on the clouds with His angels in glory.

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”
Christ continues His teaching about the Kingdom of heaven and His coming in the following chapter, saying,

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory [ Matt. 24:30 ], and all the angels with Him [ Matt. 24:31 ], then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.”
John describes the same Judgment in the Book of Revelation, which describes the ‘end of the age’ (evil age; Gal. 1:4) and the start of the new heavens and new earth.

“Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.”
Satan was just judged and cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:10, along with the beast and false prophet who were judged before him (Rev. 19:20). John and Christ are describing a literal coming of Christ and “one” literal Judgment of all the nations at the end of the age. If Christ came in 70 Ad., then we would be living in the new heavens and new earth right now. As anybody can CLEARLY SEE, we are still living in the old earth that has been around since Genesis 1:2. You can quote Tyconnius or anybody else if you like, but my arguments are based upon the Word of God.

In Christ,

Terral

Terral,

The "dead guys" as you call them are the apostles and prophets. Jesus Himself gives us the testimony of a lamb as though He were slain (Rev5:6).

Many in the early church were persecuted, tortured and even crucified for their beliefs. We would do well to match their faith and understanding.

One thing I don't like about preterism is the chauvinistic attitude it takes, as if we are so far advanced in knowledge and understanding that it is only in the last hundred years or so that the understanding of prophecy is available. And dispensationalism isn't any different.

In my opinion the knowledge of the early church is superior to the kind of dead literalism we have today.

But it sounds like you have it all figured out, so I'll leave you to convince everybody else.

Alan

[InChristAlways]

Matthew 24:30+31 describing Christ's 'Literal' Coming At The "End Of The Age""And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”

Christ continues His teaching about the Kingdom of heaven and His coming in the following chapter, saying,






Matthew 25:31-33 again describing His 'Literal' Coming At The "End Of The Age""But when the Son of Man comes in His glory [ Matt. 24:30 ], and all the angels with Him [ Matt. 24:31 ], then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.”


John describes the same Judgment in the Book of Revelation, which describes the ‘end of the age’ (evil age; Gal. 1:4) and the start of the new heavens and new earth.


Hi Terral,
Then tell me what chapter 14 of revelation is about. Since the bible mentions only ONE more coming then the end, how can revelation be showing 2 or 3 different ends and comings?. Revelation is like a giant devine jigsaw puzzle and just like the book of Daniel, it will have to be harmonized to bring it all together and fortunately more christians are looking at Luke 21 to see how Jesus could say all things written would be fulfilled. Then books like the "Davinchi Code" come out and makes the Book of God look even worst!!!!

Yes, those who would take what Jesus said "literally" and try to prove all things written were fulfilled would be called "heretics" but then those who are saying most things are yet future could also be called "heretics" for saying Jesus must have been wrong or wasn't what He meant to say. God bless.

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw into the great winepress of the wrath of God. [i]20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/fprophet.html

The false prophecy just noted contained two falsehoods that are typical of other false prophecies in the Bible (the eternal practice of Levitical sacrifice, and the eternal triumph of the Jewish nation, symbolized by David's throne). There are numerous prophecies concerning the triumph of 'David's throne' and the rise to power of Israel after the return from Babylonian exile, and these prove to be false prophecies in that they were never fulfilled in the time frame given by the prophets.