Why Does Israel Not Believe in Jesus

[InChristAlways]

I wanted to start this topic because not only because of Israel's disbelief in Christ, but why do christians believe He has come but they don't. (Yes, I know all about the "blindness" in part on Israel in Paul's epistle, which was on the rulers/priests of the house of Judah/Levi as per matt 23).
Another words, if they don't believe that Christ came according to their scripture, why should christians believe Christ came either? Some christians have actually joined judaism after believing that Christ may not have come afterall and so they believe Israel's own messiah will come(go to jewsforjudaism forum for evidence of that).
So, did Christ come or not and which one is right in their beliefs/interpretations, Israel or us?
Also, "dispensationalists" believe Christ is coming back for them again because of a passage in revelation about a 1000yr period, which no one can really interpret, so can we use that to base a "reign of Christ" on earth just for the "jews".
Thanks and God bless.

[Ted]

ICA,

Please define "Israel." It has at least seven biblical definitions, and Dispy's add at least one more. Without a definition, this discussion is doomed to confusion.

Ted

[InChristAlways]

ICA,
Please define "Israel." It has at least seven biblical definitions, and Dispy's add at least one more. Without a definition, this discussion is doomed to confusion.

TedIt appears there is one concerning the Land of Israel and the people of Israel. Israel is a country with Israelites. Just as there are true "jews", there are true "Israelites". There is also a nation of Judah and a nation of Israel mentioned in the bible, so it appears if revelation is the first century destruction of jerusalem, it would have to be combining the "remnant" of Judah/jerusalem into the nation of Israel(divorced by God in the OT). I was never a dispensationalists so I assume they define more Israel's than I know of.
If anyone can define the different Israel's in the bible, I would be thankfull. God bless.

I feel the "in part" were the rulers/priests of the house of Judah which were destroyed by God in the first century. Just a view I have right now.

romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this [is] My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."

[Ted]

That's not good enough. Please put forward a simple declarative definition of "Israel" for the purposes of this thread.

"Israel is ________________________________________________________"

Then we have a clear starting place for discussion.

[Terral]

Hi InChrist:
InChrist >> I wanted to start this topic because not only because of Israel's disbelief in Christ, but why do christians believe He has come but they don't.


First allow me to invite you to participate in our debates on the Zola Board (http://www.levitt.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi (http://www.levitt.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi) ), if you ever want to haggle over Scripture with a bunch of Jews. They carry bigger and heavier stones than the Preterists on this site. : 0 ). Let us define Israel as the blood descendants of Jacob and heirs according the covenant made with the Lord God. Genesis 35:10-12. The Lord our God has a long history of dealing with Israel, and the road became very bumpy at times. When God blesses then we are surely blessed, and when He curses then woooo to those people. His chosen people of this earth continued in their idolatry to the point that He became extremely angry and said this:

“They have made Me jealous with what is not God; they have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.”

Those who believe God makes a prophecy to fulfill it in a few years should take careful notice, as that promise was made thousands of years ago. The Lord God incarnated in the person of Jesus Christ and appeared to His ‘holy nation’ (Exodus 19:6) to be crucified as the “King of the Jews.” John 19:19. Paul writes about their ‘transgression’ (Rom. 11:11+12), but first quotes this same verse from Deuteronomy, saying,


“But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, "I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation, by a nation without understanding will I anger you."
InChrist >> (Yes, I know all about the "blindness" in part on Israel in Paul's epistle, which was on the rulers/priests of the house of Judah/Levi as per matt 23).
No, InChrist . . . The partial blindness (Romans 11:25) you are talking about is on ‘all Israel,’ as defined above. You can ask a hundred Jews, “Who was Jesus Christ?,” and over half of them will say He was a good man, teacher, rabbi, or something similar. Even if half do not believe that, they anticipate that this is what you would like to hear. Jewish history is filled with false messiahs and people deluded into believing they were the Messiah. Over half of the remaining Jews could not care less about the topic enough to give you a reply. Most of Israel today is secular and non-religious with the Orthodoxy hovering at about 13 percent of the population ( http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/relisrael03.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/relisrael03.html) ) . That number varies upon who you ask, because the Orthodoxy does not recognize many Jewish sects as being “Israel” at all. My experience is that the Jew farthest away from the Orthodox Judaism perspective has the greatest opportunity to recognize Jesus as the Son of God and believe our gospel of His shed blood.
InChrist >> Another words, if they don't believe that Christ came according to their scripture, why should christians believe Christ came either?
Our God has been in the Creator business for an infinite number of eternities, and this is not His first clambake. He has called out Israel from among the nations, so that “the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.” Eph. 3:10. Israel “stumbled over the stumbling stone” (Rom. 9:32) because they pursued righteousness as though it were by works, and not by faith. God is using Israel to demonstrate the fact, for the ‘ages to come’ (Eph. 2:4-7 (7)), that His grace and mercy are greater than all the works of men combined. This issue of ‘works’ (bride/Israel) versus ‘grace’ (body/Grace Church) is going to continue to the end of time itself in the presence of all the authorities of the heavenly. The ‘body of Christ’ is being baptized (1Cor. 12:13) directly into the Lamb of Revelation, as we are ‘baptized into Christ’ (Rom. 6:3+4) and ‘clothed with Christ’ (Gal. 3:27) at the instant we hear (Rom. 10:17) and believe (Eph. 1:13+14) the Gospel of His shed blood (1Cor. 2:2, 15:3+4). Israel shall be called to God through the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14) which includes repentance and water baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38). That is what Elijah coming to restore all things (Matt. 17:10+11) is all about. Peter, John and James gathered members to the ‘bride’ (John 3:29) during the ‘early rains’ (James 5:7), as Elijah will for the ‘late rains’ (James 5:7). The members of the ‘body of Christ’ are being given heavenly citizenship (Phil. 3:20), eternal security (Eph. 4:30, Col. 3:1-4) heavenly seats (Eph. 2:4-7) as judges of the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2:3) as a free gift (Rom. 6:23, Eph. 2:8+9) for simply believing our Gospel.

Israel shall be joined to Christ as His bride (Hosea 2:19+20, Rev. 19:5-10), but shall occupy the heavenly position of the priest interceding before His throne (we rulers / they priests). We have the sign of ‘blood’ upon us, while they have the sign of ‘water’ on them, as Christ came in both (1John 5:6). The bride shall be ‘summed up’ (Eph. 1:9+10) ‘in’ Christ as part of the ongoing subjection (1Cor. 15:27) process that shall extend to the end of time. They shall be doing work after work after work to clean their garments bright enough in order to gain entry into the body of Christ at the end of each age. At that time every member of the bride will come before His throne for judgment and inspection of their works for that particular age (like us here: 2Cor. 5:10). A small percentage shall be taken after every judgment, while the majority are turned away to do more works in the next age. Each time they will look up and see all of us already inside the Lamb, and come to realize more and more all the time that they are working for what God gave us for free. The throne of God above shall be the stage for the lesson of the ages to be presented to all the heavenly hosts, as He demonstrates what He can do from the mixing of His breath with the dust of the ground and the descendants of Adam. From one perspective Israel is the chosen race of this planet, but from the other they are called out to teach everybody else a valuable lesson.
InChrist >> Some christians have actually joined judaism after believing that Christ may not have come afterall and so they believe Israel's own messiah will come(go to jewsforjudaism forum for evidence of that).
Part of the deception of Preterism is that some among them believe Satan is already judged and put away. Do not be deceived, as Paul says, into believing any such thing. He disguises himself as an angel of light (2Cor. 11:14) and deludes (2Thes. 2:11) men into believing all sorts of things. Many are running around calling themselves Messianic Jews, as if there is a halfway house for Jews leaving Judaism, but not becoming actual Christians like the Gentiles. They would like to join the party if it were not for all those Gentiles in the room. So they hold themselves aloof (Gal. 2:12) and stand condemned along with Peter (Gal. 2:11). They teach that Jesus is the Messiah and coming back to start His thousand years kingdom here on the earth. When you ask them why that kingdom will end, they have no reply. When asked about Elijah coming first to restore all things (Matt. 17:10+11) then do not know what to say. After all, if Elijah restores ‘all things’ first, what is there for Christ to restore when He comes after? So the Orthodox Jew is waiting on Elijah (Malachi 4:5+6), while the Messianic Jew is looking for Christ (Matt. 24:30). Satan is deluding Jews away from Judaism into the false notion they can start the Messianic Dispensation before Elijah appears first. More Gentiles are falling for the Messianic Jew fallacy than are entering Judaism as proselytes. The funny thing is that proselytes to Judaism are running away from the free gift and seeking an eternity of works to gain the very . . . same . . . thing. Now that will be the topic of conversation for many a heavenly ruler for the ages.
InChrist >> So, did Christ come or not and which one is right in their beliefs/interpretations, Israel or us?
Heh. Us? I believe your theology fits more into the Messianic Jew category myself; thus the offer to join in the Zola debates. Yes, Jesus Christ was born in the manger and was rejected by Israel, and died for our sins about 2000 years ago. God raised Him from the dead (Rom. 10:9) and He is now at the right hand of God interceding for the saints (Rom. 8:34) as we speak. He is waiting for “His body” Church (Col. 1:24) to mature (Eph. 4:13) so that we can blast out of here (1Thes. 4:17) and join Him in the heavenly at the right hand of God (Heb. 8:1+2, Rev. 3:21, 7:15-17).
InChrist >> Also, "dispensationalists" believe Christ is coming back for them again because of a passage in revelation about a 1000yr period, which no one can really interpret, so can we use that to base a "reign of Christ" on earth just for the "jews".
While many of my debating opponents believe me to be a Dispensationalist, I can assure you that none of them think so. Just because a person interprets Scripture with knowledge of dispensations, administrations, covenants and promises that does not make him a Dispensationalist. Christ is coming back for the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) mystery church (Eph. 5:32), because that is exactly what the Apostle Paul says:

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.”
This is not the same gathering described by Christ in Matthew 24:30+31, when He comes for His bride at the end of the age. That event occurs at the very end of the “Lord’s day” (day of the Lord) that started a thousand years earlier (Rev. 1:10, 1Thes. 4:16, 2Thes. 2:2). Our current church in the world today is taken when the day of the Lord is ‘at hand’ (2Thes. 2:2), which can happen at any time after the body of Christ has matured (Eph. 4:13). Personally I believe we have some ways to go, but with good pastors and teachers (Eph. 4:11), perhaps we will get there before the turn of the next century.

In Christ,

Terral

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[InChristAlways]

No, InChrist . . . The partial blindness (Romans 11:25) you are talking about is on ‘all Israel,’ as defined above. You can ask a hundred Jews, “Who was Jesus Christ?,” and over half of them will say He was a good man, teacher, rabbi, or something similar. Even if half do not believe that, they anticipate that this is what you would like to hear. Jewish history is filled with false messiahs and people deluded into believing they were the Messiah. Hi Terral.
The partial blindness was on the corrupt priests/rulers of the house of Judah/Levi (which was part of all of Israel), not on the lost sheep of Israel. Almost all of Malachi is against the house of Levi. Hopefully more of Israel and more christians will distinguish between those 2 nations as far as prophecy is concerned.


25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;


matt 23: 17 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? 18 "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged [to perform it.'] 19 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. 26 "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.31 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' [guilt.] 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

Jeremiah 50:6 " My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray; They have turned them away [on] the mountains. They have gone from mountain to hill; They have forgotten their resting place. 7 All who found them have devoured them; And their adversaries said, 'We have not offended, Because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, The LORD, the hope of their fathers.' 12 Your mother shall be deeply ashamed; She who bore you shall be ashamed. Behold, the least of the nations [shall be] a wilderness, A dry land and a desert. 13 Because of the wrath of the LORD She shall not be inhabited, But she shall be wholly desolate. Everyone who goes by Babylon shall be horrified And hiss at all her plagues.




Jews only came from the house of Judah, period, and they were wiped out in the first century except for a "remnant", so how do they know they are not of the house of Israel? I call them Israelites and the reason they are called jews is because they practice Judaism, not because they are of the house of Judah. I don't think they even believe it was God Himself who destroyed their temple in the first century.
They can't even distinguish the prophecies in the OT concerning Judah/Levi and Israel so I really don't discuss the OT too much with them (much like dispensationalists can't distinguish both nations).


Jeremiah 3:8 "Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel [10 northern scattered tribes] had committed adultery, I had put Her away and given Her a certificate of divorce; yet her Treacherous Sister Judah[2 southern tribes] did not fear, but went and played the Harlot also.

Isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with Death, And with Hades we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves." 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily. 17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place.

Reve 8:7 The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already, Because you do not take [it] to heart. [i]3 "Behold, I will rebuke your descendants And spread DUNG on your faces, The DUNG of your solemn feasts; And [one] will take you away with it.

Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah [is] written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, 2 While their children remember Their altars and their wooden images By the green trees on the high hills. 3 O My mountain in the field, I will give as plunder your wealth, all your treasures, [And] your high places of sin within all your borders. 4 And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."

zech 4:6 So he answered and said to me: "This [is] the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the LORD of hosts. 7 'Who [are] you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel [you shall become] a plain! And he shall bring forth the capstone With shouts of "Grace, grace to it!" ' "

Revelation 8:8 Then the second angel sounded: And [something] like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood.

[Terral]

InChrist:
InChrist >> The partial blindness was on the corrupt priests/rulers of the house of Judah/Levi (which was part of all of Israel), not on the lost sheep of Israel. Almost all of Malachi is against the house of Levi. Hopefully more of Israel and more christians will distinguish between those 2 nations as far as prophecy is concerned.
You are being ridiculous, InChrist. ‘In part’ is connected to the ‘blindness / hardening,’ and not ‘Israel’ in the passage. You are selectively reading the verse that way out of mere convenience. You cannot arbitrarily alter the definition of “Israel,” when Paul is making many references to the same “Israel” throughout his Epistle to the Romans. He defines “Israelites” in Romans 9:1-5 like this:

“For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.”
Paul refers to “Israel” and “Israelites” eleven times in Romans 9-11, while never mentioning any corrupt rulers. He never even mentions “Judah” anywhere in any of his Epistles. You are injecting that claim into his teaching to perpetuate this deluded interpretation. You can quote the whole Book of Matthew and Jeremiah if you like, but that does not change Paul’s definition of “Israel” that he defines himself throughout the Epistle to the Romans.
InChrist >>> Jews only came from the house of Judah, period, and they were wiped out in the first century except for a "remnant", so how do they know they are not of the house of Israel?
Please . . . where are you getting this stuff? Paul defines who “Jews” are throughout his Epistles:

“ . . . but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews* a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”
Jews AND Gentiles includes everybody on this planet. Here Paul says the Jews* stumbled over Christ, and he says it again differently here: “but Israel*, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they* did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They* stumbled over the stumbling stone,” Romans 9:31+32. When Paul went to the Jew first and also to the Greek” (Rom. 1:16, 2:9, 10) your contention is that he was only talking about one tribe of Israel. Your definition of “Jew” is obviously very different from the teachings of Scripture. Paul does service to the term here:

“But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God, and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself?
InChrist >> I call them Israelites and the reason they are called jews is because they practice Judaism, not because they are of the house of Judah. I don't think they even believe it was God Himself who destroyed their temple in the first century. They can't even distinguish the prophecies in the OT concerning Judah/Levi and Israel so I really don't discuss the OT too much with them (much like dispensationalists can't distinguish both nations).
You are inventing your own definitions of the terms in order to justify a skewed interpretation of the Scriptures. You are trying to break Israel down into elementary components in order to pass judgment upon certain parts while also acquitting the other parts. No sir. Our definitions must agree with the writers of the Scriptures, or our conclusions shall be misguided and wrong. Please enter the game by playing according to the same rules and definitions as the rest of us. I am beginning to sense a Jew (or wantabe Jew) among us with an ax to grind.

In Christ,

Terral

[InChristAlways]

You are inventing your own definitions of the terms in order to justify a skewed interpretation of the Scriptures. You are trying to break Israel down into elementary components in order to pass judgment upon certain parts while also acquitting the other parts. No sir. Our definitions must agree with the writers of the Scriptures, or our conclusions shall be misguided and wrong. Please enter the game by playing according to the same rules and definitions as the rest of us. I am beginning to sense a Jew (or wantabe Jew) among us with an ax to grind.

In Christ,
Hi Terral. Just like Israel does with their scriptures.
I never invent stuff from the bible and if I "invent" stuff from the bible, then what are the 1000's of others doing to cause division and confusion on God's words?
In fact, there may even be judaizers among us that would like nothing better than for us to believe that Christ wasn't the true Messiah and I am sure Israel loves the state of confusion in the churches today.
So please keep your inflammatory comments to yourself brother and stick with the Bible instead. If Israel doesn't see the OT prophecies that are against Judah/Levi and Jerusalem, far be if from me to try to convert them, as maybe they are right and Christ never came(they don't believe in the NT anyway), in which case, I would just turn atheist or just join Islam like so many other confused christians have. God bless.

Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already, Because you do not take [it] to heart. [i]3 "Behold, I will rebuke your descendants And spread DUNG on your faces, The DUNG of your solemn feasts; And [one] will take you away with it.

romans 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ with you. Amen.

1 peter 5: 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

ezekiel 22: 20 '[As men] gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt so I will gather [you] in My anger [b]and in My fury, and I will leave [you there] and melt you. [i]21 'Yes, I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and you shall be melted in its midst.23 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 24 "Son of man, say to her: 'You [are] a land that is not cleansed or rained on in the day of indignation.' 25 "The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey; they have devoured people; they have taken treasure and precious things; they have made many widows in her midst. 26 "Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known [the difference] between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.

Isaiah 28:14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with ahdes we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves." 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily.