Does the Mark of the Beast require microchip technology?

[dizzle]

In another thread Terral said with regards to the Mark of the Beast:


You believe that Caesar had the microchip technology to pull off that kind of thing 2000 years ago? “Yea sure, they just ran their hand across the scanner at the grocery store . . .

Is that required? And how that that fit with "imminency" - it is my understanding that Terral believes in imminency. Was microchip technology imminent back then? If not, how could God say that this was "soon" to take place and that "the time is near." Or does Terral reject that those words teach a doctrine of imminency. (or anyone else who agrees with Terral's quote above, he is not alone in making that assertion)


This thread is just to deal with this very narrow topic. I am starting my own threads because Terral has a habit of just piling on thousands of assertions so that nothing gets dealt with and he has a right to do as he pleases on his threads, so I leave him to that on his - when he makes an assertion I want to deal with, I will start a separate thread. I wish to discuss just this one topic in this thread - that is, the issue of imminency and the allegedly required technologty for the mark of the beast.

[InChristAlways]

Bibilcally, we can go back to Daniel(babylon) and the OT and it is difficult for me to put the "mark" into the future. The firery furnace the 3 jews were thrown in resemble the lake of fire which I believe symbolically represents the fire in Jerusalem in the first century.

The christians in Paul's time were not only persecuted by the apostate jewish rulers/judaizers but also the romans. The corrupt jewish rulers had put Caesar over Christ and were in essence "whoring" with Rome. They also felt the altar in the holy of holies was still the place for offerings and sacrifices for God even after the curtain was torn in 2 after Christ died. Seems like the mark would in essence be "denying Christ" as the True King and Savior so today if we had to deny Christ to get a mark to buy or sell, what true Christian in Christ today would do that?.
The temple/altar, (and the relationship with rome) and of course wealth/money had actually become an "image" to worship instead of worshipping in the spirit and truth that was of Jesus/God, and revelation shows a temple and altar and those who whorship there. I really don't believe the mark has anything to do with today as Jerusalem became a type of "babylon" just as rome was. It appears almost all prophecies were against the jewish rulers of the house of Juda/levi so that is what I mainly focus on. God bless.

Daniel 3:1 Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height [was] sixty cubits [and] its width six cubits. He set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon. 2 And King Nebuchadnezzar sent [word] to gather together the satraps, the administrators, the governors, the counselors, the treasurers, the judges, the magistrates, and all the officials of the provinces, to come to the dedication of the image which King Nebuchadnezzar had set up. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste [and] spoke, saying to his counselors, "Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?" They answered and said to the king, "True, O king." 25 "Look!" he answered, "I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." 26 Then Nebuchadnezzar went near the mouth of the burning fiery furnace [and] spoke, saying, "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, servants of the Most High God, come out, and come [here."] Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego came from the midst of the fire.

John 19:15 But they cried out, "Away with [Him,] away with [Him!] Crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar!"

1 thess 2: 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they [did] from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up [the measure of] their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

luke 23:28 But Jesus, turning to them, said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 "For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, 'Blessed [are] the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!' 30 "Then they will begin 'to say to the mountains, "Fall on us!" and to the hills, "Cover us!" '

reve 6:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

song 5:15 His legs [are] pillars of marble Set on bases of fine gold. His countenance [is] like Lebanon, Excellent as the cedars. 16 His mouth [is] most sweet, Yes, he [is] altogether lovely. This [is] my beloved, And this [is] my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem! THE DAUGHTERS OF JERUSALEM

[Ted]

DeeDee,

That’s a brilliant observation. How could the rapture be imminent before microchips? HMMM. I believe you’ve uncovered a nasty case of newspaper exegesis!

The real question is not: “What is the mark of the Beast?” After all, 1)it is voluntary, and 2)it is applied to unbelievers.

Instead, we should look at who the Beast opposes. He fights against the Lamb. And we want His seal! So the real issue is: “What is the seal of God?”

Ted

[dizzle]

Thank you Ted! I never really thought of this one before, but it is quite simple.

[technomage]

An interesting concept ... and one that can be equally applied to Dee Dee's Partial Preterism as to Futurism. Now, as a non-Christian who tends to take a Historical-Critical view of the Apocalypse of John, I really don't fall into either camp. At the time that I feel the Apocalypse was written, Christians in Asia Minor were being persecuted for refusing to participate in the "Imperial Cult" of Diocletian. I'm not aware of any of the early church fathers addressing this aprticular verse (no references in the E-Catena or the Ante-Nicene Fathers that I can find), but it seems to me that this mark could be a symbolic reference to participation in the Imperial Cult. Thus, a "literal" mark would not be necessary.

Indeed, this could be the "Doctrine of the Nicolaitans" that John of Patmos refers to--we actually know very little, outside of the Apocalypse, of who the Nicolaitans were, or what they taught, but it is possible that they taught that it was acceptable to participate in the Imerial Cult and still be faithful to Jesus. This certainly fits in with other Biblical passages that refer to "whoring after other Gods," and also fits in with the diatribe against Jezebel that John makes in his letter to the Church at Thyatira.

However, this also does some damage to some of the arguments put forth by the Preterist view, in that it helps confirm a late date for the writing of the Apocalypse. Flatly speaking, there was no substantial persecution of the Church in Asia Minor during the reign of Nero. Additional historical details--such as the AD64 destruction of Laodicea, and the poor likelihood of the ecclesia at Laodicea having rebuilt and become "rich", or the complete and utter lack of reference to an ecclesia at Jerusalem (indicating that it had already ceased to exist)--provide a greater degree of uncertainty for an early date.

There is also the nature of apocalyptic literature: the Apocalypse of John made a tremendous use of symbolic and apocalyptic writing, a literature style where there was no expectation of a literal interpretation, because the meaning was in what the symbols stood for, rather than the symbols themselves. In my opinion, those who interpret the Revelation literally rather than symbolically are doing the literature (and themselves) a great disservice. Additionally, it should be noted that, unlike the historical detail, this symbolic interpretation provides support for Preterism.

In that sense, the return of Christ can still be viewed as "immanent," whether one interprets the Mark of the Beast literally, as an implantable microchip, a tattooed UPC bar-code (as was done in the 1970s), a Social Security number (as was done in the 1940s and 1950s)--or symbolically, as a sign of the apostacy of claiming the name of Christ while whoring after any other "God," whether that God be riches, social importance, political power, "Imperial Favor," or what have you.

[dizzle]

Bad, ,bad Justin, this is a Christian area. I don't mind as thread starter your participation but you know you have to get permission first. However, that being said, with all due respect, your post goes afield of my narrow question. IF the mark is a microchip, what THEN about imminency. I agree with you that it is not a literal makr, and thus has no bearing on imminency. However, Terral is insisting it is a microchip and that is what I wish to explore.

The dating of Revelation is something that I don't have a great deal of time to get into. Justin have you read "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Gentry? If not,, I would recommend that you do.

[technomage]

Dee Dee, I'm profoundly sorry -- I did not mean to intrude. However, this section is listed on the main menu as "Theist Only," rather than "Christian Only." While I am not a Christian, I am still a Theist--hence my confusion.

As for Gentry ... no, but I just found it on the Net in PDF format. It's on the list. :smile:

In defense of the "wider consideration" of my post ... well, I do feel that it is an interpretive issue. Frankly speaking, when I was Christian, I felt that God would hold the sole decision of when to return, and would use whatever circumstances were appropriate. There have been a number of things listed as the "Mark of the Beast" throughout history, and I always took the view that whenever Jesus chose to return, He would permit the use of whatever was available.

And again, I apologize for intruding ... the Apocalypse was my favorite NT book as a Christian, and still is, even though I no longer follow that path. (OT favorite is Ecclesiastes, but that's a topic for another thread.)

Justin

[dizzle]

Oh Justin, let me look at the forum rules, I apologize if there is a confusion. Let me look into it. You may be right and I am wrong. I will let you know. In any event I don't mind your input at all okay? I will respond to your post olater, and get with you privately on teh forum rules thing, I could be the one who is confused.

[ih8censorship]

However, Terral is insisting it is a microchip and that is what I wish to explore. yeah ive heard a lot of people and there microchip as the mark of the beast. because of Rev. 13:16 we know the mark is to be IN the right hand, or forehead, but my footnotes for some reason seem to reverse it and say ON the right hand or forehead. im gonna belive the bible and say that is IN those places. now that would make a lot of sense for something like a microchip because of the internal rather than external nature.

now, from what i know about microchips seems to me all of them can be destroyed, defrauded,and removed because thats the way it is with everything created by man. how else would you explain security breaches in the pentagons mainframe? people arent perfect, their products arent perfect, so therefore i think the mark of the beast must be something "other worldly" in a manner of speaking, just because of the irreversable nature of the mark. if it was something created by humans it would be reversable.

[Terral]

Dee Dee:
Dee Dee >> Is that required? And how that that fit with "imminency" - it is my understanding that Terral believes in imminency.
Your Imminency Doctrine is not according to Scripture, as can be easily demonstrated by the use of a few arguments. The Preterist position is that the events of Matthew 24, and those described by John in Revelation, occurred back in 70 Ad with the destruction of Jerusalem. They believe ‘this generation’ (Matt. 24:34) was the one living in that day, even though Christ had no clue about ‘when’ (‘nor the Son’; Matt. 24:36) any of those signs would occur. John is writing about the same ‘end of the age’ events in Revelation, as the ‘beast’ (Rev. 13) is the ‘man of sin’ (2Thes. 2:3+4) who brings about the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matt. 24:14) in the holy place of the Temple of God. Every credible Bible scholar I know places the writing of Revelation to between 90 and 100 Ad., which is twenty or thirty years after the destruction of Jerusalem. Even if we allow this prophetic book to be written in late 60 Ad, then if the Preterists are right, then these things were fulfilled long before most of professing Christianity even had the opportunity to read about it. The fact that people can come here and yell “Imminency” is not any proof of their doctrine at all.
Dee Dee >> Was microchip technology imminent back then? If not, how could God say that this was "soon" to take place and that "the time is near."
A thousand years is like a day to the Lord. 2Pet. 3:8. From the perspective of Scripture and His divine will, Christ had made the provision for all things to now be reconciled to Himself at Calvary. This is a vastly different story from the circumstances through which He provided the Old Testament through the mouth of the prophets of old. God’s plan for the redemption, reconciliation and summing up of all things ‘in’ Christ is now underway. However, there are still steps that must take place for this process to be complete by the ‘end of the age.’ The ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) still must come to maturity first (Eph. 4:13). Elijah still must come and restore all things FIRST (Matt. 17:10+11). Heaven must receive Christ, until the ‘times’ (plural) of restoration of ALL THINGS (Acts 3:21) is complete. Scripture does not bend itself backwards over your claims of ‘imminency,’ but every word from God must be fulfilled according to the way in which Scripture has been given through His Spirit.
Dee Dee >> Or does Terral reject that those words teach a doctrine of imminency. (or anyone else who agrees with Terral's quote above, he is not alone in making that assertion)
That is ‘your’ doctrine of imminency and the invention of Preterists generated to prop up their ‘already fulfilled in 70 Ad’ dogma. As you can clearly see in all my posts, I am not buying any of that man-made teaching. The Lord God prophesied of the demise of the serpent 6000 years ago in Genesis 3:15+16, and that is not fulfilled until the end of the age (Rev. 20:10). Six thousand years is like a single heartbeat to God, but many generations to mere moral men. Scripture is the Word of God (2Tim. 3:16+17) and not words written by men.
Dee Dee >> This thread is just to deal with this very narrow topic. I am starting my own threads because Terral has a habit of just piling on thousands of assertions so that nothing gets dealt with and he has a right to do as he pleases on his threads, so I leave him to that on his - when he makes an assertion I want to deal with, I will start a separate thread.
Heh. Thousands of assertions? Here is your problem, Dee Dee: Your errant interpretation of Scripture is so riddled with holes and you have only so many fingers to fill them. My job as your debating opponent is to point those things out using arguments based upon sound reasoning and Scripture. Your attempt to narrow the scope of discussion to one thing is the control freak in you trying to solicit a particular kind of response from your debating opponents. You are bringing up a topic for us to discuss, and not giving birth to anybody. You are trying to give people license to come in and raise their hands in agreement with you, but with no right to question or bring up points that clearly show your original hypothesis (imminency doctrine) to be dead wrong. The fact that we disagree does not make my words ‘off topic.’
Dee Dee >> I wish to discuss just this one topic in this thread - that is, the issue of imminency and the allegedly required technology for the mark of the beast.
History does not record that anybody ever gained the power and authority to place a mark on every other person so that they could only buy and sell having that mark. People who have something to sell are far more interested in the money in your hand to care about anything else. Caesar never had the technology to enforce such a standard upon the population of his empire, even if he had the notion to do so. He was busy holding the Germanic tribal forces from the north at bay, while keeping the commanders of his armies and the powers that be from the senate under control. Caesar was more a target of the internal forces of the Roman Empire than the beast ‘displaying himself being God’ than you are trying to prove. While I do not believe the microchip technology was required to fulfill the accepting of the ‘mark of the beast’ 2000 years ago, I also believe that he will use that science to control the masses in the future. People can accept his mark even today by accepting a false gospel (2Thes. 2:10-12) while being led to their destruction (2Pet. 3:14-16), but that is another subject for another thread.

In Christ,

Terral

[technomage]

Y'know, Terral, I also happen to disagree with Dee Dee's Preterist interpretation, but the use of insults and put-downs in your statement almost make me regret that I'm anywhere near the same side of the issue with you. Truth can stand on its own, and does not require that you cast insults on those whom you feel to be in error.

Stow the ad hominems, my friend: they do not help your case, and make you look positively repugnant.

[Terral]

Justin:
Justin >> Y'know, Terral, I also happen to disagree with Dee Dee's Preterist interpretation, but the use of insults and put-downs in your statement almost make me regret that I'm anywhere near the same side of the issue with you. Truth can stand on its own, and does not require that you cast insults on those whom you feel to be in error.
Please “quote me” and show the errors in my testimony. I am responding to assaults like this:
Dee Dee >> “Terral has made some statements about Revelation which are just incredibly shallow IMHO. First he said that since Revelation is a prophecy it must ALL refer to future events. When I pointed out to him that the birth of Christ is seen in a vision in Revelation he backpedaled, and carved out a convenient "exception" (at least it is better than a gap I guess). The fact is that his first statement was reckless.”
Do not accuse me of being incredibly shallow, backpedaling and reckless unless you are prepared to prove those things through rigorous debate of the topic. Who is doing everything to avoid the points of the arguments being raised in this discussion? Who is trying to manipulate the environment to bring about a distorted outcome, instead of simply allowing the arguments to our talking? Who is backpedaling with both hands and both feet and being reckless? If you have better points to bring to the discussion, why not do that instead of merely casting stones?

In Christ,

Terral

[technomage]

Justin:

Please “quote me” and show the errors in my testimony.
I am not stating that your testimony is in error. I am stating that you used insults and ad hominem comments in your first draft. Now that you've edited it to clarify a few points and remove the insults, I have no issues ... indeed, if this had been the original post, I would have simply read it, nodded my head, and passed on without comment.

Terral, even if Dee Dee called you every nasty, insulting name in the book (which, by the way, she did not), for you to respond in kind simply lowers the standards of your own behavior. I frankly don't care what you are responding to. If you feel that Dee Dee's given you a metaphorical slap on the cheek--behavior that I've not noticed from her, by the way--is it not true that your response should be to meekly offer the other one?

That's certainly what I would consider appropriate, if I were a Christian.

Yes, Dee Dee disagrees with your Fururist interpretation of Revelation, and with your Dispensational understanding of history ... that's OK. She definitely disagrees with my choice of religious faith, probably disagrees with my opinion of professional sports, and may even disagree with my preferred brand of coffee. Yet Dee Dee and I have always interacted in a respectful and professional manner--even a friendly manner. I have a tremendous amount of respect for her, if for no other reason than because I am a guest on her forum. (There's the additional fact that she has, by her behavior, more than earned my respect, but that's another matter entirely.)

Terral, you and Dee Dee seem to have hit things off on the wrong foot, as it were. OK, that happens--we've all done it. Yet I will propose to you that if you continue to react towards her with anger, insults, and derision then you do nothing but perpetuate whatever rift or difficulty may exist between the two of you. Hey, if I could, I'd offer to help in any way I can ... but telling you that I see what may be a problem with the way you are behaving, and giving advice for you to consider, is the extent of what I can do.

Though I will say this: frankly, the fact that a Wiccan sees a disparity between Biblical standards and your behavior would, I hope, make you sit back and seriously think things through.

In peace,

Justin

[InChristAlways]

After reading jude and peter, I get the impression that they are talking about the religious rulers who believed in God, but had taken on the same characteristics as the "beast" of Rome, Nero. Revelation does show 2 "brute" beasts, one from the sea and one from the earth, one an evil gentile beast and the other a "jewish" beast with horns like a "lamb" but speaks like a "dragon". Since I believe revelation is the first century destruction of Jerusalem, it appears there were 2 evil entities, Rome and Jerusalem. Strange, but it appears the mark is taken by those that believe in God, but deny Christ, which would exlude the romans as they believed in different gods.
To place the mark in the "future" doesn't make biblical sense as it would only apply to "believers" in God, not unbelievers. After the destruction of Jerusalem, the name of Christ spread like wildfire around the whole globe and since the bible came out worldwide within the past centuries, it has spread even more.
So I myself don't see a worldwide destruction of any kind but I do see the Kingdom continue to become more widespread, even in the presence of all the evil happening in the world.
Instead of God destroying the world, He may take the world back to the "stoneage" with varying degrees of punishments (how about oil being cuttoff).

Is Jeremiah talking about the real Babylon or Jerusalem in this passage?

Jeremiah 50:6 " My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray; They have turned them away [on] the mountains. They have gone from mountain to hill; They have forgotten their resting place. 7 All who found them have devoured them; And their adversaries said, 'We have not offended, Because they have sinned against the LORD, the habitation of justice, The LORD, the hope of their fathers.' 8 " Move from the midst of Babylon, Go out of the land of the Chaldeans; And be like the rams before the flocks. 12 Your mother shall be deeply ashamed; She who bore you shall be ashamed. Behold, the least of the nations [shall be] a wilderness, A dry land and a desert. 13 Because of the wrath of the LORD She shall not be inhabited, But she shall be wholly desolate. Everyone who goes by Babylon shall be horrified And hiss at all her plagues.

jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving [only] themselves. [They are] clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;

2 peter 2:9 [then] the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. [They are] presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, 13 [and] will receive the wages of unrighteousness, [as] those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. [They are] spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. [They have] a heart trained in covetous practices, [and are] accursed children. 15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the [son] of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Both the mark of God and the mark of the beast are superimposed upon men. The Greek word translated "mark" in Rev. 13:16 is from the same root from which we get our English word "character." In Heb.1:3 this word is translated as "express image." "Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person." The express image of God is the manifestation of God as revealed through His and our character. The mark speaks of that handiwork and the inward thinking which brings forth an expression of character in line with the very source from which the mark comes. Either we will find ourselves expressing the character of God, or else the character of the beast. It does not speak of a visible tattoo or brand, nor any outward form, but it refers to that inner quality of His character which is being developed in us, which shall be revealed in due time.

[dizzle]

Terral before I respond, please clearly state your doctrine of imminency. You seem to indicate that I am mistaken on what you hold as to that doctrine, please clearly state it.

[Terral]

Dee Dee:
Dee Dee >> Terral before I respond, please clearly state your doctrine of imminency. You seem to indicate that I am mistaken on what you hold as to that doctrine, please clearly state it.
I have no doctrine of imminency, and never heard of any such thing until coming to this Board. God fulfills His Prophetic Word, according to His will (times and epochs; Dan. 2:21Acts 1:7, 1Thes. 5:1) and timeline without regard to the doctrines of men. John is describing the fulfillment of OT and NT prophecy relating to the “Lord’s day” (day of the Lord) that begins in Revelation 1:10. That event is still future to this day, as Paul describes our gathering (1Thes. 4:16+17) to be when the day of the Lord (1Thes. 5:1+2) is ‘at hand.’ 2Thes. 2:2. The main event of the ‘day of the Lord’ (Acts 2:20) is that God’s Spirit must be poured out on ‘All Mankind.’ Acts 2:17. The ‘gospel of the kingdom’ MUST be preached to the whole world first, and then the ‘end shall come.’ Matt. 24:14. Both of those major prophecies are fulfilled DURING the ‘day of the Lord,’ which has yet to even BEGIN. The ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3-31) events of Matthew 24 and Revelation are all future, and are fulfilled near the time of “Your Coming.” Therefore, my view is that the ‘end of the age’ is more than a thousand years in our future, since we are taken when that day of the Lord is ‘at hand.’ When you realize that the final judgment of the ‘day of the Lord’ (2Pet. 3:10) includes the destruction of the current heavens and earth (2Pet. 3:12, Rev. 20:11), then it becomes easy to see that those things a very much part of the future of this planet.

In Christ,

Terral

[dizzle]

Then let me ask you a question. Are we supposed to believe that Jesus is coming back "soon"?

[InChristAlways]

When you realize that the final judgment of the ‘day of the Lord’ (2Pet. 3:10) includes the destruction of the current heavens and earth (2Pet. 3:12, Rev. 20:11), then it becomes easy to see that those things a very much part of the future of this planet. You mean like this passage in Zephaniah?

Zeph 1: 2"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth," declares the Lord. "I will sweep away both men and animals: I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. The wicked will have only heaps of rubble when I cut off man from the face of the earth," declares the Lord. "I will stretch out my hand against Judah and against all who live in Jerusalem."

Isaiah 66:22 " For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass [That] from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD. 24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Isaiah 65:17: "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

[Terral]

InChrist:
InChrist >> You mean like this passage in Zephaniah?
Yes. The prophet is describing the great and terrible Judgment that occurs at the every end of the 'day of the Lord' that Peter is describing in 2Pet. 3:10-12. John is describing the same thing at the final judgment in Rev. 20:11 with the old earth passing away. You should also notice that Zephaniah says these things are ‘day of the Lord’ is ‘near’ (Zeph. 1:7) and ‘coming very quickly.’ Zeph. 1:14. I wonder how many Preterists of Christ’s day believed those things fulfilled by the destruction of the first temple by the Babylonians, and Israel being led into slavery in 8 and 6 BC. This just goes to show that Scripture’s use of the terms ‘near’ and ‘coming VERY quickly’ are not according to how some understand them.

Perhaps one point to be made is that we sleep in Christ upon death to all wake at once when He comes for His body (1Thes. 4:13-17, 1Cor. 15:51-53). Those baptized into His body in Paul's day, and those of tomorrow will all wake up at His coming, as if waking from a single night's sleep. Therefore, from the perspective of being like grass to the Lord, then all of these things do come quickly.

In Christ,

Terral

[Terral]

Dee Dee:
Dee Dee >> Then let me ask you a question. Are we supposed to believe that Jesus is coming back "soon"?
Christ’s coming in Matthew 24:30 is NOT Him coming back for His body in 1Thes. 4:16+17. Christ is describing His own ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3) coming that is seen by the OT Prophets to His Disciples in that chapter. Paul is describing the gathering to the Lord of our mystery church (Eph. 5:32) that was not seen by any of them. They did not see our gospel (Rom. 16:25), our church (Col. 1:24-27 (24)), or our mystery translation (1Cor. 15:51-53). Paul is describing a ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Eph. 3:2) that is parenthetical to the ‘times and epochs’ described in the remainder of Scripture. Christ was teaching the Twelve about His coming and the end of the age (Matt. 24:3-31), as if Paul would never be raised and this current ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Eph. 3:2) never existed. Christ is fulfilling Prophecy through the Twelve and the bride (John 3:29), and revealing the Mystery through Paul and the body of Christ. Today the ‘pastors and teachers’ (Eph. 4:11) are trying to build up the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) to maturity. Eph. 4:13. We are hindered by a very poorly developed and untaught ‘body,’ and by those carrying stones who would rather disrupt the class. Scripture itself places the requirements to be fulfilled, before Christ can come for His body (1Thes. 4:13-17). Only then can the ‘day of the Lord’ and the prophecy part of God’s Plan even begin. Christ comes for the prophetic ‘bride’ (John 3:39) at the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:31), as they are given to endure those things to the end (Matt. 24:13).

The members of the body of Christ themselves have it within their power to hasten the mystery unseen (in the air; 1Thes. 4:17) coming of Christ by increasing their efforts in assisting the body to full maturity.

“And He gave some as apostles [ Paul, Barnabas, etc. ], and some as prophets [ giving the Scriptures ] , and some as evangelists [ one in all of us ], and some as pastors [ heads of churches ] and teachers [ instructing members ], for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ [ the church ]; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man [ as a single body ], to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.”
The process of maturing for the ‘body of Christ’ on this earth is the only thing standing in the way of Christ’s coming (1Thes. 4:17) to gather us to Himself. Keep in mind that the kingdom of God coming to the earth is about “Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.” Matt. 6:10. Satan is to be chained to start the “Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10) and that ‘thousand years’ (2Pet. 3:8, Rev. 20:2-7) period. That includes all of his evil forces of this darkness named in Ephesians 6:12. The members of the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph.; 4:12) are the ones seated in the heavenly places (Eph. 2:6) to take their places for that thousand years. God is preparing us for our ‘heavenly’ part in the ‘earthly’ restoration of all things that shall occur under Elijah (Matt.17:10+11). When the very end comes, and Satan is loosed (Rev. 20:7), the bad guys again take their positions in the heavenly places for the beast’s deception of the entire world. The members of His body return with Christ at the very end (Matt. 24:30) in glory (Col. 3:4) to shorten the days of that great tribulation. That is why the building of Christ’s body for their heavenly task of judging the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2+3) must come before Elijah can come and restore all things.

The church is supposed to be determining who is approved through our debates (1Cor. 11:19), and by who is accurately handling the word of truth (2Tim. 2:15). Then those people teach the body to maturity, according to the Light given them through God’s grace. Every member of the growing body then excels in different ways, but every part is just as important as the others. The only difference between many posters here and me is that I have been doing this since before many of you were born, and have written over 100,000 of these posts on topics from Genesis to Revelation. Some believe my words are unkind and without love, but what does Paul say?

“. . . preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.” 2Timothy 4:2.

“This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith.” Titus 1:13.

“These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.” Titus 2:15.
If the ‘body of Christ’ remains in the current feeble, frail and anorexic state, then we could be here for a very long time. God is patient and has eternity to carry out His plans, according to His will. You can bet that every single word He has given through the prophets will be fulfilled exactly as it is written, because He has the power to make it so.

In Christ,

Terral

[InChristAlways]

This just goes to show that Scripture’s use of the terms ‘near’ and ‘coming VERY quickly’ are not according to how some understand them. I understand Terral and I really never looked at the "generation" view as most have, as I focused on whether Luke 21 was fulfilled or not. To believe that would mean being "full preterist" and a heretic, but seeing as revelation wasn't canonized untill the 4th century, does that mean the bible couldn't be fulfilled because we don't understand about the 1000yr or "first resurrection" of the firstfruits in Christ? That is why it is difficult for me to try and refute you, as all 3 wrath events in revelation appear to be the same event, The Day God Glorified Himself, and if it is the destruction of Jerusalem as Luke says, then what is the 1000yr period? I don't know if the abomonation started after the jewish rebellion or if it was when rome actually began it war with Israel and marched into Israel. Revelation appears to show a period of tribulations then a period of wraths (the 5 months in reve 9 for example). Wonder how jewish scholars look at this LOL.
Anyway, I understand where you are coming from brother. God bless.

Luke 21: 20 " But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Matt:"And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15 " Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Mark 13:13 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 " So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

dan 12:11 "And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, [there shall be] one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 "Blessed [is] he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. 13 "But you, go [your way] till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."

I don't really see a 1000yr gap here after the "2 witnesses" are taken up. It shows the judgement, wrath and reward for the saints coming next. This supposedly is when the mystery of God is revealed at the 7th trump. This has to be the period when the first century temple was still standing after Christ is taken up in chapt 12 I believe.

reve 11:17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." 19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

[Terral]

InChrist:
InChrist >> I understand Terral and I really never looked at the "generation" view as most have, as I focused on whether Luke 21 was fulfilled or not. To believe that would mean being "full Preterist" and a heretic, but seeing as revelation wasn't canonized until the 4th century, does that mean the bible couldn't be fulfilled because we don't understand about the 1000yr or "first resurrection" of the first fruits in Christ?
Just recently you were presenting the ’40 year’ generation view of Matthew 24, which is not Scriptural either. Who waits until 40 to have children? My mother was a grandmother twice, before she was 40 years of age. Christ is saying that ‘this generation’ to see all those signs (Matt. 24:3-29) would see His coming and the end of the age. That is the simple truth of the matter, as He had no clue about ‘when’ any of those things would occur (Matt. 24:36). Next, people interpret Scripture in different ways, according to the manner in which they define the terms and have learned things from others. I have never been willing to play the ‘heretic’ card against those with whom I disagree. Let’s just allow the arguments do our talking, and the chips to fall as they may.
InChrist >> That is why it is difficult for me to try and refute you, as all 3 wrath events in revelation appear to be the same event, The Day God Glorified Himself, and if it is the destruction of Jerusalem as Luke says, then what is the 1000yr period?
There is only one ‘end’ to the ‘day of the Lord’ and one Battle of Armageddon on the plain of Har-Magedon (Rev. 16:16). John is given a different vision of the same end of the age events from various perspectives throughout Revelation. Our discussion is not about the ‘wars’ aspect of the prophecies anyway. We are connecting the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+15) events of the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matt. 24:15) in the holy place, and the ‘man of sin’ in the ‘Temple of God’ (2Thes. 2:3+4) to the ‘beast’ of Revelation 13. Nobody in 70 Ad took his seat in the Temple displaying himself as being God. Nobody in the history of our planet has fulfilled the things of the ‘beast’ upon the whole world using the ‘mark of the beast.’
InChrist >> I don't know if the abomonation started after the jewish rebellion or if it was when rome actually began it war with Israel and marched into Israel.
The ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matt. 24:15) is the beast (man of sin) using the Temple to perpetuate the deception that he is God, so that all the people of the earth worship him and receive his mark (Rev. 13:17). Desolation comes upon those who receive the mark (Rev. 14:11), and not on the Temple itself. The dragon and the beast require this most holy structure of God on the planet in order to pull off their deception at the end of the age. The Romans did not need to march into Jerusalem, as that city had been occupied by Rome for a very long time already. The ‘cock crew’ (Matt. 26:34, 75, etc.) is a reference to the sound of the horns that sounded with the regular changing of the guard at their posts. The Romans would not have allowed Israel to have a standing army to resist them. No power in that region could stand against Nero and his thugs in 70 Ad. The Romans just came, burned the place down and took the good stuff home with them. The stones were removed one by one to remove the melted silver and gold from burning the Temple. Christ was not prophesying about the Roman destruction of the Temple in Matthew 24. He was there describing His coming at the end of the age (Matt. 24:3-31) when He returns to Judge the living (Matt. 25:31-33) and the dead (Rev. 20:11-15) with the old earth passing away. That is the moment that the Law passes away, as He taught them in Matthew 5:17+18.
InChrist >> Revelation appears to show a period of tribulations then a period of wraths (the 5 months in reve 9 for example). Wonder how jewish scholars look at this LOL. Anyway, I understand where you are coming from brother. God bless.
Different sects of Jews interpret things differently like everybody else. The key is that the right answer says exactly what God is saying without creating any contradictions in Scripture. While most of my debating opponents over the years were studying the commentary from church fathers and such, I was solving the seeming contradictions of Scripture in various forums of debate. Those years of study became the foundation for my current theology today.

In Christ,

Terral

[dizzle]

InChristAlways - please I said I want to be very narrow in the topic - this is not a general futurism v preterism debate thread.

PLEASE my post was very narrow, I would like everyone to keep to it.

[InChristAlways]

no post. sorry

[dizzle]

Justin, I was mistaken about the guidelines sorry.

[Ted]

DeeDee,

This seems to confirm a prior comment of yours in another thread about Terral. He seems unable to follow a simple direction about the scope of a discussion.

On substantive matters, the issue of a mark in the hand comes from Tefillin and Phylacteries, a practice developed from a literal interpretation of Deut 11:18ff. But properly understood, God's intent is that His words be followed (v. 22). In other words, they refer to what is in your mind and what you do. The mark and the seal aren't physical at all. They are in your heart.

Ted

[Sheepdog]

Of course! And don't you remember the stories of people disappearing off chariots around AD70?

[Terral]

Dee Dee:
Dee Dee >> This seems to confirm a prior comment of yours in another thread about Terral. He seems unable to follow a simple direction about the scope of a discussion.
When you start a thread about Preterism, then you should expect to be looking at points relating to the Preterist interpretation of Scripture. Starting a thread does not give you authority to write my posts or select the points in which I choose to make to show your interpretation is concocted out of nothing.
Dee Dee >> On substantive matters, the issue of a mark in the hand comes from Tefillin and Phylacteries, a practice developed from a literal interpretation of Deut 11:18ff. But properly understood, God's intent is that His words be followed (v. 22). In other words, they refer to what is in your mind and what you do. The mark and the seal aren't physical at all. They are in your heart.
That is a ridiculous interpretation of the ‘mark of the beast’ in Revelation 13. What does John say?

“He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life. And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.”
How shall the other people on the earth see the sign in the heart and know who has the mark and who does not? The mark of the beast MUST be visible to everyone for the law to be enforced. Nothing in Deuteronomy changes the meaning of what John saw in his visions described in Revelation. The interpretation you are offering is an invention of human logic that leaves more questions than answers. Just like everything else associated with this Pretender interpretation, it makes no Biblical or Historical sense at all.

In Christ,

Terral

[JCA]

Dee Dee:

When you start a thread about Preterism, then you should expect to be looking at points relating to the Preterist interpretation of Scripture. Starting a thread does not give you authority to write my posts or select the points in which I choose to make to show your interpretation is concocted out of nothing.

That is a ridiculous interpretation of the ‘mark of the beast’ in Revelation 13. What does John say?


.. etc.. etc..

Terral, sorry to butt in, but you attribute the first part of your post/quote to Dee Dee.. however, it was not her who said this..

QUOTING TED:

DeeDee,

This seems to confirm a prior comment of yours in another thread about Terral. He seems unable to follow a simple direction about the scope of a discussion.

On substantive matters, the issue of a mark in the hand comes from Tefillin and Phylacteries, a practice developed from a literal interpretation of Deut 11:18ff. But properly understood, God's intent is that His words be followed (v. 22). In other words, they refer to what is in your mind and what you do. The mark and the seal aren't physical at all. They are in your heart.

Ted

Sure it was just a mistake.. but figured I would point it out.. I'm helpful that way :teeth:

IN Love and Peace


JCA

[Terral]

Hi JCA, Ted:

You are indeed correct. My apologies for the mistake. The name "Dee Dee" at the top of the post threw me. : 0 ).

In Christ,

Terral

[Ted]

Terral,

If you want to be so literal, perhaps you would take the time to read the entire text you quote. Rev 13 begins (13:1-2) with the beast, an amalgam of Daniel 7's four beasts. Therefore, it represents dominant human government. This beast suffers a "deadly wound" (13:3). That means that dominant human government ceases to exist. But the deadly wound is healed (13:3), and the "whole world was amazed and followed after the beast." This should be enough to tell you what is going on.

In John's day, dominant human government was the Roman Empire. It suffered a deadly wound in 476AD when the Goths under Odoacer overthrew it. The deadly wound was healed when dominant human government resumed in 538 under the church of Rome. This is the period in view when the death decree, mark and so on take place. Now, since that is the period in view, microchips are not at issue. But what was the mark?

In this case, the mark was quite clear. You either submitted to the authority of the Roman church or you died. It was not an insignia, it was your cooperation with church authorities. It was something you DID. Countries that rebelled received the Interdict, which blocked trade, among other things.

All of the prophecy was fulfilled during the Dark Ages. BTW, this is the classic view of the Reformers, so it isn't new with me. It just happens to respect the natural reading of both scripture and history.

Ted

[Terral]

Ted:
Ted >> If you want to be so literal, perhaps you would take the time to read the entire text you quote. Rev 13 begins (13:1-2) with the beast, an amalgam of Daniel 7's four beasts. Therefore, it represents dominant human government. This beast suffers a "deadly wound" (13:3). That means that dominant human government ceases to exist. But the deadly wound is healed (13:3), and the "whole world was amazed and followed after the beast." This should be enough to tell you what is going on.
You are injecting components into the passage that simply are not there. Paul describes the ‘man of sin’ taking ‘his seat’ in the ‘Temple of God’ displaying himself as being GOD. 2Thes. 2:3+4. Christ describes the ‘abomination of desolation’ standing in the ‘holy place.’ (Matt. 24:15). John is describing a world figure being worshipped by the whole world in Rev. 13 (4, 8, 12, 15). The dragon is giving authority (Rev. 13:2, 4, 5, 7, 12) to the beast (man of sin; 2Thes. 2:3+4) in the same way that the Father gives authority to the Son (John 5:27, 17:2, etc.). The ‘beast’ of Revelation 13 is the ‘son of destruction’ (2Thes. 2:3+4) who is displaying himself as being God. There is no way that all of your dominant human government is going to fit inside the Temple of God to display HIMESELF (a person) as being God. You are trying to spiritualize the truth out of the terms in order to prop up your invented interpretation.
Ted >> In John's day, dominant human government was the Roman Empire. It suffered a deadly wound in 476AD when the Goths under Odoacer overthrew it.
What? In John’s day . . . 476 AD? Heh . . . John is describing the events of the “Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10) or the “day of the Lord.” All of those things of Prophecy are still FUTURE.
Ted >> The deadly wound was healed when dominant human government resumed in 538 under the church of Rome. This is the period in view when the death decree, mark and so on take place. Now, since that is the period in view, microchips are not at issue. But what was the mark?
That is maybe the most lame interpretation of Revelation I have ever heard. The fact that our mystery church (Eph. 5:32) is still in the world is evidence that the day of the Lord is not even yet ‘at hand’ (2Thes. 2:2). That is when our gathering to the Lord (1Thes. 4:16+17) occurs to START the day of the Lord (1Thes. 5:1+2). The end of the age events of the ‘day of the Lord’ include the dragon and the beasts of Revelation 13.
Ted >> In this case, the mark was quite clear. You either submitted to the authority of the Roman church or you died. It was not an insignia, it was your cooperation with church authorities. It was something you DID. Countries that rebelled received the Interdict, which blocked trade, among other things.
Please . . . Scripture is being more precise than you give credit.

“And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.”
Ted >> All of the prophecy was fulfilled during the Dark Ages. BTW, this is the classic view of the Reformers, so it isn't new with me. It just happens to respect the natural reading of both scripture and history.
That would be your opinion, Ted. Christ is describing a time of testing that is coming upon the whole world.

“Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”
The end of the ‘Lord’s day’ sees the beast, false prophet (Rev. 19:20) and Satan (Rev. 20:10) thrown into the lake of fire. Right after that the heavens and earth pass away (Rev. 20:11). Satan is still out there blinding the minds of the unbelieving (2Cor. 4:3+4) as the ‘god of this world’ and the ‘deluding influence’ of 2Thes. 2:11. Paul calls him the ‘prince of the power of the air’ (Eph. 2:2) who disguises himself as an angel of light (2Cor. 11:14). We are still living during the time before his chaining (Rev. 20:2) which is a thousand years (Rev. 20:5) before he is released (Rev. 20:7) to do his damage in Revelation 13. If the time that the day of the Lord being ‘at hand’ (2Thes. 2:2) has already come, then why is the church still on the earth? That blows your theory of the events of the day of the Lord being fulfilled, if that day has yet to even start.

In Christ,

Terral

[dizzle]

Terral, another question - actually two. (see I want to criticize, if necessary - it may not be necessary for I am sure many things from many views are reasonable even if I ultimately disagree - what you actually believe) so-

Could Christ have come for the Church one thousand years ago? Of course He didn't, but was it possible - should they have been expecting it and working towards it with the expectation that it could happen in their lifetimes.

What period of time do you posit as being possible between this coming for the Church, and the events of Revelation.

[Terral]

Dee Dee:
Dee Dee >> Terral, another question - actually two. (see I want to criticize, if necessary - it may not be necessary for I am sure many things from many views are reasonable even if I ultimately disagree - what you actually believe) so-
Please criticize and look for any weaknesses in my testimony, and point those things out to everyone. Everybody has blind spots in the way they see things, and you will be doing me a great service indeed. The one among you who shows my error is pulling the splinter from my eye.
Dee Dee >> Could Christ have come for the Church one thousand years ago? Of course He didn't, but was it possible - should they have been expecting it and working towards it with the expectation that it could happen in their lifetimes.
I must assume your reference to the ‘church’ is the one Paul addresses throughout his Epistles (Eph. 5:32, Col. 1:24, etc.). The restraining imperatives relating to our gathering to Christ include that fact that we must mature into the ‘mature man’ of Eph. 4:11-13 (13).

“And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.”
The deal is that we are to replace the current heavenly rulers of this darkness (Eph. 6:12) during the coming “day of the Lord,” which is only a precursor to ruling from New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:1+). The “Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10-20:15) is our warm up for the things to come. That is why we are gathered when the day of the Lord is ‘at hand.’ 2Thes. 2:2. Every saved member of the body of Christ is already seated in Christ in the heavenly places (Eph. 2:6). We must grow as a body to the maturity needed to carry out the responsibilities required of a ‘group’ of heavenly hosts called to judge the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2+3). Yes, it was ‘possible’ that the body could have been made ready by that time, but we know now that the measure of the stature of the body belonging to the ‘fullness’ of Christ has yet to be accomplished. My intense efforts on the internet are part of my teaching ministry that seeks to build the body to full stature in my lifetime. My personal view is that this will not be accomplished anytime in the near future, as the body is still feeble, weak and disoriented as a whole.

Denominational Christianity divides the body instead of working for the attainment of the unity of faith the body requires. The ‘mystery of lawlessness’ (2Thes. 2:7) is a force much stronger and more fiercely gathering members to the body of the antichrist than anything relating to the ‘body of Christ.’ People are so deluded (2Thes. 2:11) by the false teachings out there, that the man of God with ‘the absolute truth’ is regarded as an imposter and one carrying mere opinion with demons himself. God does not appear in any rush to move things along for the body of Christ, and mere men must work at His pace and according to His schedules. We could be here for another thousand years . . .
Dee Dee >> What period of time do you posit as being possible between this coming for the Church, and the events of Revelation.
This is a very good question. The true ‘body of Christ’ must become more self aware of their true identity, as being the cooperative members of the same ‘one body.’ That is a great part of the ‘unity of the faith’ component described above. That is a characteristic to be ‘attained’ by the body of Christ, as we grow in the knowledge of the Son of God into that ‘mature man.’ The Preterist interpretation of the NT is wrong, as well as the Dispensationalist interpretation. Both are the product of Denominational Christianity which is riddled with many components of false doctrine. Debate of the topics is the vital key to identifying ‘who’ is approved before men (1Cor. 11:19) and God (2Tim. 2:15). There is no replacement for teaching ‘sound doctrine’ according to ‘the truth’ of God’s Living Word.

The members of the body of Christ must be willing to repent and turn loose of the elemental precepts of doctrine that cannot withstand the sifting and testing of thorough debate of the topic. Then they must rally around those who actually show themselves approved through the rigorous discussion of the topics. The ‘tutor’ or teacher is the hub of the group for a particular lesson to be learned about the Son of God, as we work towards that ‘unity of faith.’ When those lessons are learned, then members of that group become the hub of the wheel for the next group to come along, or for the next website. The ‘truth’ must be allowed to prevail at all times unhindered; even should only one among us see it at the start. The fertile heart prepared for the faithful seed of the truth is the one willing and able to accept the truth without regard to preconceived notions. This is how the ‘body of Christ’ is maturing in the world as we speak, whether we are conscious or unconscious of where the body is heading.

The period between the gathering of the mature body to Christ (1Thes. 4:17) and the start of the fulfillment of Revelation (Rev. 1:10) is marked by the same instant of the sound of that trumpet.
“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.” 1Thes. 4:16.

“I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day [ day of the Lord ], and I heard behind* me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet.” Rev. 1:10.

(1Thes. 4:16) Shout + Voice Archangel + Trumpet = Loud Voice like Sound of Trumpet (Rev. 1:10)
The voice of the archangel is the sound of Satan being chained (Rev. 20:2) for this ‘thousand years’ (Rev. 20:5) that has just begun. John heard the sound behind* him, because we were gathered at the instant that the day of the Lord is ‘at hand.’ 2Thes. 2:2. All of the OT and NT prophecies concerning the ‘day of the Lord’ are fulfilled right here in Revelation, but not until the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3-31). The prophecies of Joel (Acts 2:17+18) are fulfilled in the first three chapters of Revelation. Christ and John are describing ‘global’ events that affect the ‘whole world.’ The Preterist interpretation localizes everything to Israel only, which is microscopic compared to the cataclysmic events in the future of this planet.

In Christ,

Terral

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Is that required? And how that that fit with "imminency" - it is my understanding that Terral believes in imminency. Was microchip technology imminent back then?LOL! The book of Revelation says that the symbol here, the number 666 on people (remember people, this is part of the vision), refers to a man. The mark of the beast isn't something that gets injected under the skin - it's not even a physical object, any more than the seal of the lamb is a physical object. The mark is allegiance to a person.

We know who many Christians in the early centuries thought this referred to. How do we know? Here's a clue - it has to do with the fact that the Latin vulgate uses the number 616 instad of 666. Does anybody know why?

Glenn

[Pate]

We know who many Christians in the early centuries thought this referred to. How do we know? Here's a clue - it has to do with the fact that the Latin vulgate uses the number 616 instad of 666. Does anybody know why?



The numerical value of "Caesar Nero" (or "Nero Caesar") is 616 in the Latin transliteration and it's 666 in Greek.

:bravo:

What did I win?

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

The numerical value of "Caesar Nero" (or "Nero Caesar") is 616 in the Latin transliteration and it's 666 in Greek.

:bravo:

What did I win?You're so close, but BEEP - you win nothing. Well, OK, maybe not nothing, here, have a pretzel. 666 is the numerical value of Nero Caesar in it's Hebrew/Aramaic spelling. When this is transliterated into the Latin form, the numerical value of those letters adss to 616. Since the early readers of Scripture were familiar with the fact that Nero Caesar is the beast of Revelation, a well meaning copyist seems to have trid to "help" later readers by translating the number to 616, so that Latin readers not familiar with hebrew would find it easy to understand.

Microchips.... lol, what would John have said?

Glenn

[dizzle]

Terral I read your post and you didn't answer my questions. If so please repost just the answer to the question.

[Terral]

Dee Dee:
Dee Dee >> Terral I read your post and you didn't answer my questions. If so please repost just the answer to the question.
No sir. You received a complete answer to the questions you presented. Please spend less time modifying your avatar and more time rephrasing your question so that you receive the kind of answer you are seeking. That moving one is most irritating . . .


In Christ,

Terral

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

Dee Dee:

No sir. You received a complete answer to the questions you presented. Please spend less time modifying your avatar and more time rephrasing your question so that you receive the kind of answer you are seeking.Then maybe dyslexia is catching, because I couldn't see answers to her questions in your post either. You talked around the sam subject area, but didn't answer the question. School teachers get really annoyed when their students do that - they don;t know the answer, so they spend lots of words talking about the subject, hoping that this will suffice as an answer to the specific question.

And for cryin' out loud, stop calling her "Sir."

Glenn

[spiritmech]

Dee Dee:

No sir. You received a complete answer to the questions you presented. Please spend less time modifying your avatar and more time rephrasing your question so that you receive the kind of answer you are seeking. That moving one is most irritating . . .


In Christ,

Terral

You sort of went off on tangents. The only substantial part of your reply is:

The period between the gathering of the mature body to Christ (1Thes. 4:17) and the start of the fulfillment of Revelation (Rev. 1:10) is marked by the same instant of the sound of that trumpet.

Which I'm guessing is pre-trib.
Steve

[Dr. Jack Bauer]

You sort of went off on tangents. The only substantial part of your reply is:

The period between the gathering of the mature body to Christ (1Thes. 4:17) and the start of the fulfillment of Revelation (Rev. 1:10) is marked by the same instant of the sound of that trumpet.

Which I'm guessing is pre-trib.
SteveExactly, he said what a particular event is marked by, which gets kinda close, but doesn't actually answer DD's questions.

Glenn

[dizzle]

I still would like an actual answer.

Theory: You have figured out why Iwant an actual answer and are avoiding giving one to avoid looking silly.

Hint: You already look silly with the microchip comment, why stop now?

I would like an answer to the question please. If you answered them above, quote the specific portion where I got a specific answer.

[Terral]

Dee Dee:
Dee Dee >> I still would like an actual answer. Theory: You have figured out why I want an actual answer and are avoiding giving one to avoid looking silly.
Are you talking to me? Why not simply ‘quote me’ and remove all doubt about the question. You received my answer to your question above. Please rephrase your question and stop appearing silly.
Dee Dee >> Hint: You already look silly with the microchip comment, why stop now?
No sir. Christ is describing events that shall happen at the ‘end of the age,’ which is at least 1000 years in our future. Some of the micro-technology exists in the world today, along with the satellite technology, to enforce the things prophesied in Revelation 13 regarding the ‘mark of the beast.’ Perhaps the Preterists here with their heads jammed in the sand back in 70 AD believe these things to be silly. Do you want to see more of my vision of the things to come? The ‘beast’ is going to be a Jew (out of the sea; Rev. 13:1) and rise to power very quickly near the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+). Satan (dragon; Rev. 13:1) was just loosed from his prison (Rev. 20:7) and has a very short time (Rev. 12:12). He is going “to make alterations in the times and in the law” (Dan. 7:25), which includes a thirteen month calendar year. Paper money and coins will cease to exist, and everything is bought and sold using ‘credits’ as the global currency. To buy a can of soda you will move your hand over the scanner and make your selection. Your citizenship (identification #, etc.), medical (family history, donor, etc.), financial (job description, schooling, etc.), political (affiliations to gun clubs, Preterist Websites, parties, etc.), religious (showing allegiance to the beast, infractions against him), personal info (fingerprints, moles, scars, tattoos), and police records will be kept at ‘Central Processing,’ and updated to your personal chip (via uplink) on a regular basis.

The heat driven microprocessor in your body will be accessed by any of a number of agencies under the control of the Global Administrative Agency and the beast. Each microchip is given a unique frequency from the DNA sequencing data gathered from the host. Therefore, the scanners are equipped to read the chip information and simultaneously map your DNA signature from the perspiration of your body. Your chip will never work in someone else’s body. Implants exposed to temperatures outside the normal range of body function set off an alarm to “Central Processing,” and a beacon for the recovery of your body. Tampering with this technology is an offence punishable by death.
Dee Dee >> I would like an answer to the question please. If you answered them above, quote the specific portion where I got a specific answer.
I have no clue as to what you are talking about. If you have a question then simply come out and ask it. Place my name at the top of the post, and I will do my best to give a thoughtful reply.

In Christ,

Terral

[Terral]

Spiritmech:
Spiritmech >> You sort of went off on tangents. The only substantial part of your reply is: “Terral >> The period between the gathering of the mature body to Christ (1Thes. 4:17) and the start of the fulfillment of Revelation (Rev. 1:10) is marked by the same instant of the sound of that trumpet.” Which I'm guessing is pre-trib.
Heh. Pre-trib? Any interpretation of our being ‘caught up’ (1Thes. 4:17) to the Lord that is connected to the ‘tribulation’ of Matthew 24 is DEAD WRONG. You want to cast me into the heap of those professing to be ‘pre-tribbers?’ Our gathering to the Lord is at least 1000 years before the ‘end of the age’ events of Matthew 24. Those events occur during the ‘day of the Lord’ (2Pet. 3:10) that is as ‘a thousand years.’ 2Pet. 3:8. Paul says that our gathering to Him is when the day of the Lord is ‘at hand.’ 2Thes. 2:2. Our mystery ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) church (Col. 1:24) is taken when those thousand years (Rev. 20:2, 5 ,7) BEGIN.

The sound of the ‘archangel’ (1Thes. 4:16) in Christ’s voice is Satan being chained for that ‘thousand years.’ Rev. 20:2. That moment is marked by the sound John heard behind him in Revelation 1:10. The ‘thousand years’ is the time from Revelation 1 to Revelation 20, and to the time that Satan is released. Only then do the ‘end of the age’ events of Matthew 24 even get started. That is a thousand years from the time that the day of the Lord was ‘at hand’ (2Thes. 2:2) to the end of the ‘day of the Lord.’ So placing me into the group of pre-tribbers is not an accurate way to depict my beliefs on this topic, unless you know of any others who also believe this way.

In Christ,

Terral

[dizzle]

Terral, another question - actually two. (see I want to criticize, if necessary - it may not be necessary for I am sure many things from many views are reasonable even if I ultimately disagree - what you actually believe) so-

Could Christ have come for the Church one thousand years ago? Of course He didn't, but was it possible - should they have been expecting it and working towards it with the expectation that it could happen in their lifetimes.

What period of time do you posit as being possible between this coming for the Church, and the events of Revelation.

The above is a repost of my questions Terral.

[Sheepdog]

Dee Dee:

Are you talking to me? Why not simply ‘quote me’ and remove all doubt about the question. You received my answer to your question above. Please rephrase your question and stop appearing silly.

No sir. Christ is describing events that shall happen at the ‘end of the age,’ which is at least 1000 years in our future. Some of the micro-technology exists in the world today, along with the satellite technology, to enforce the things prophesied in Revelation 13 regarding the ‘mark of the beast.’ Perhaps the Preterists here with their heads jammed in the sand back in 70 AD believe these things to be silly. Do you want to see more of my vision of the things to come? The ‘beast’ is going to be a Jew (out of the sea; Rev. 13:1) and rise to power very quickly near the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+). Satan (dragon; Rev. 13:1) was just loosed from his prison (Rev. 20:7) and has a very short time (Rev. 12:12). He is going “to make alterations in the times and in the law” (Dan. 7:25), which includes a thirteen month calendar year. Paper money and coins will cease to exist, and everything is bought and sold using ‘credits’ as the global currency. To buy a can of soda you will move your hand over the scanner and make your selection. Your citizenship (identification #, etc.), medical (family history, donor, etc.), financial (job description, schooling, etc.), political (affiliations to gun clubs, Preterist Websites, parties, etc.), religious (showing allegiance to the beast, infractions against him), personal info (fingerprints, moles, scars, tattoos), and police records will be kept at ‘Central Processing,’ and updated to your personal chip (via uplink) on a regular basis.

The heat driven microprocessor in your body will be accessed by any of a number of agencies under the control of the Global Administrative Agency and the beast. Each microchip is given a unique frequency from the DNA sequencing data gathered from the host. Therefore, the scanners are equipped to read the chip information and simultaneously map your DNA signature from the perspiration of your body. Your chip will never work in someone else’s body. Implants exposed to temperatures outside the normal range of body function set off an alarm to “Central Processing,” and a beacon for the recovery of your body. Tampering with this technology is an offence punishable by death.


:lol: now all you need are black helicopters and alien death rays. :lmbo:

some of the stuff i read from some futurists make me wonder if they are getting their prophecy from Ray Bradbury rather than the Bible.

[Terral]

Dee Dee:
Dee Dee >> Terral, another question - actually two. (see I want to criticize, if necessary - it may not be necessary for I am sure many things from many views are reasonable even if I ultimately disagree - what you actually believe) so- 1.) Could Christ have come for the Church one thousand years ago?
No sir. The ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) had yet to become mature. Eph. 4:13.
2.) Of course He didn't, but was it possible - should they have been expecting it and working towards it with the expectation that it could happen in their lifetimes.
Yes. Every generation is to live a quiet life (1Thes. 4:11) and work with their hands in anticipation that we could be ‘caught up’ (1Thes. 4:17) at any moment.
3.) What period of time do you posit as being possible between this coming for the Church, and the events of Revelation.
Christ’s coming for our ‘His body’ church (1Cor. 1:24) is when the day of the Lord is ‘at hand.’ 2Thes. 2:2. That marks the moment that the “Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10) begins. The Lord’s day and the day of the Lord are phrases for the same ‘day of the Lord’ (2Pet. 3:10) which is as ‘a thousand years’ (2Pet. 3:8). This is the same "thousand years" that Satan is chained in Rev. 20:7, but described from John’s overview vision from that perspective. The ‘events’ of Revelation are fulfilled throughout the “day of the Lord” or from Revelation 1:10 (Start) to Revelation 20:10-15 (End). That is the confusing part of your question, because the events of Revelation occur over a 1000 year period. The very last event for our church on this planet is the Rapture of 1Thes. 4:17, which is happens when the day of the Lord starts. The ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+) events of Matthew 24 occur at the ‘end’ of the day of the Lord, or 1000 years after our gathering.

In Christ,

Terral

[Terral]

Sheepdog:
Sheepdog >> now all you need are black helicopters and alien death rays. some of the stuff i read from some futurists make me wonder if they are getting their prophecy from Ray Bradbury rather than the Bible.
Look at the technology advances we have seen in the past 100 years. The end time events of Revelation 13 are at least 1000 year in our future, and that ‘beast’ is the most ruthless individual ever to live. My descriptions only serve to scratch the surface of what the most devious man ever to walk the earth has in store for the people living in that day. Your words serve as evidence that the typical Preterist here is interpreting Scripture with sand in his sandals.

In Christ,

Terral

[Sheepdog]

Look at the technology advances we have seen in the past 100 years.

yeah... and none of it is actually spoke of in Revelation... which is ironic since futurists hold their interpretation of prophecy as the most literal.


at the risk of getting sidetracked, do you believe Armeggedon will be fought on horseback?

The end time events of Revelation 13 are at least 1000 year in our future, and that ‘beast’ is the most ruthless individual ever to live. My descriptions only serve to scratch the surface of what the most devious man ever to walk the earth has in store for the people living in that day. Your words serve as evidence that the typical Preterist here is interpreting Scripture with sand in his sandals.

ha! if you want to talk about sand in one's sandals... let's just say, if i were a futurist i would find it ironic if the mark turned out to be just a plain old mark on the hand or forehead (like a branding, or something).

[dizzle]

The end time events of Revelation 13 are at least 1000 year in our future

Reallly? So much for "at hand"

Can you loan my a thousand dollars? I'll pay you back soon.

[dizzle]

Could Christ have come for the Church one thousand years

No sir. The ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) had yet to become mature. Eph. 4:13.

That didn't answer my question. My question was DID HE, but COULD HE.

Which you appear to answer here, as yes He COULD have.


Of course He didn't, but was it possible - should they have been expecting it and working towards it with the expectation that it could happen in their lifetimes.

Okay that question is out of the way (that is callled imminency by the way Terral, you know that thing you denied believing). Unto to the second one....


What period of time do you posit as being possible between this coming for the Church, and the events of Revelation.

I read your answer (I can't quote it because the coding you choose to use makes it almost impossible to quote you) - but you are positing a view I never heard of before, and which Mickey certainly would not agree with. You are claiming that the events of Revelation 1-20 are the Millennium? Is that correct? And that the events of Matthew 24 end the "Millennium"?

That is a very odd view. I would daresay that is even more in the minority in the world of Christendom than preterism.

Is my understanding above correct?

[Terral]

Dee Dee:
Dee Dee >> That didn't answer my question. My question was DID HE, but COULD HE. Which you appear to answer here, as yes He COULD have.
No sir. You asked a Yes or No question and my response was NO. Stop being fickle . . . Christ cannot come for the body, until it is mature (Eph. 4:11-15).
Dee Dee >> Okay that question is out of the way (that is callled imminency by the way Terral, you know that thing you denied believing). Unto to the second one....
No sir. It is called being fickle . . . as in picking and choosy while using no Scriptural references at all to prove errant doctrines based upon absolutely nothing.
Dee Dee >> I read your answer (I can't quote it because the coding you choose to use makes it almost impossible to quote you)
That is because of the fickle Editor settings on this Board. I must cut and paste all messages to notepad format, then back to my Georgia Font. That cleans up the work. Other Boards using this Editor do not have this problem.
Dee Dee >> - but you are positing a view I never heard of before, and which Mickey certainly would not agree with. You are claiming that the events of Revelation 1-20 are the Millennium? Is that correct? And that the events of Matthew 24 end the "Millennium"?
The entire 1000 years happens in Revelation 1-3. After that we have John giving the accounts of his ‘heavenly’ visions of the same period over and over again from various perspectives.
Dee Dee >> That is a very odd view. I would daresay that is even more in the minority in the world of Christendom than preterism. Is my understanding above correct?
Yes. My views are derived strictly from God’s Living Word and not from the interpretations of men. Your Bible has Two Testaments, while mine is three witnesses of spirit (OT), water (Hebrew NT) and blood (Paul’s Epistles). 1John 5:8. You think I am a Dispensationalist, but I am a member of the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12).

In Christ,

Terral

[spiritmech]

Okay, you win, you're a crypto-dispensationalist. Pretty much anything that doesn't seem a single thread unbroken of a single covenant is dispensationalism, no matter what you want to call it.
SM

[dizzle]

No sir.

I am a ma'am.

You asked a Yes or No question and my response was NO.

No I did not. Please quote me. Until you can admit this error, there is no sense in continuing since you do not have the sense to admit when you mess up something.

That is because of the fickle Editor settings on this Board. I must cut and paste all messages to notepad format, then back to my Georgia Font. That cleans up the work. Other Boards using this Editor do not have this problem.

Is fickle your Word for Todaytn? Anyways no matter how evil the fickle editor is, you should do things a little differently for the courtesy of those responding to you. We should not have to clean up a gazillion font tages, that is why no one quotes you as you have complained of.

The entire 1000 years happens in Revelation 1-3. After that we have John giving the accounts of his ‘heavenly’ visions of the same period over and over again from various perspectives.

That really didn't answer my question - at least not that I see. So let me see if understand - Revelation 1-3 takes a thousand years to complete, and 4-20 are talking about the same period of time as 1-3, right?

Yes. My views are derived strictly from God’s Living Word and not from the interpretations of men.

Who else holds this view?



Your Bible has Two Testaments, while mine is three witnesses of spirit (OT), water (Hebrew NT) and blood (Paul’s Epistles). 1John 5:8. You think I am a Dispensationalist, but I am a member of the ‘body of Christ’

I don't care what label you like for yourself, and that is not YET a concern for me in this thread.

[Ted]

Okay, you win, you're a crypto-dispensationalist. Pretty much anything that doesn't seem a single thread unbroken of a single covenant is dispensationalism, no matter what you want to call it.
SM

Once in a while something is said in a way that simply cuts to the core of the matter. Well done.

Ted