Salvation Of the Jews from "Egypt"?

[InChristAlways]

I started this topic to see how others view the verse in John 4 concerning salvation being "of" the jews. Since almost all the prophecies are against the rulers/priests of the house of Judah/Levi I felt the salvation Paul was talking about was in romans 13 was more from "enemies" than spiritual salvation. God compared the rulers of Jerusalem by many pagan names in the bible but what caught my eye was revel chapt 11 where the "bodies" of the witnesses lay in a street symbolically called "Egypt" and "Sodom". So I went through the bible looking at Exodus and it appears that Jerusalem had turned into a "spiritual" egypt/babylon. I could write a book on just this and because a lot of sites have said there are false prophecies and contradictions because certain "cities" were not destroyed "forever", this got me to studying more(this site if very good and glad I didn't see this until after I had read the bible through a few times).
http://www.awitness.org/bible.html
I would like to see if others also have referenced Jerusalem to Egypt. God bless.

John 4:22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, [that] observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 "For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.

exodus 3:6 Moreover He said, "I [am] the God of your father -- the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. 7 And the LORD said: "I have surely seen the oppression of My people who [are] in Egypt, and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows. 8 "So I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and large land, to a land flowing with milk and honey,

exodus 14:12 " this not the word that we told you in Egypt, saying, 'Let us alone that we may serve the Egyptians?' For [it would have been] better for us to serve the Egyptians than that we should die in the wilderness." [i]13 And Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. Stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which He will accomplish for you today. For the Egyptians whom you see today, you shall see again no more forever. 14 "The LORD will fight for you, and you shall hold your peace."


romans 13:11 And [do] this, knowing the time, that now high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation nearer than when we [first] believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.

reve 11:8 And their dead bodies [will lie] in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

romans 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always." 11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation [has come] to the Gentiles.


[i]This passage always puzzled me as to why the family of Egypt was specifically mentioned and I believe it is referring to earthly "jerusalem", as the jerusalem above is now our "heavenly" Mother. Any views on this?

[i]zech 14:17 And it shall be [that] whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they [shall have] no [rain;] they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

[Ted]

ICA,

You seem to be trying to drink from a fire hose. There are so many topics that interest you. And that’s good, but it can be confusing. Let’s look at “salvation is of the Jews” in John 4:22. The phrase in Greek is he soteria ek ton Ieudaion estin. Literally this would be “the salvation is out of the Jews.” The problem is how “ek” is rendered. Some translations say “of,” as the one you quote. The NAS says “from.” That’s a bit better, but misses the impact of the Greek.

Put visually, Jesus’ statement in 4:22 might be best reflected in
John 7:38 38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.’”
In Genesis 12:3, Abraham’s descendants are commissioned to be missionaries. The gospel is to “flow out of them” to the world. That is the impact of ek. It speaks of something coming out of a state or situation with which it had intimate association. Thus, when salvation “comes out of” the Jews, it is a statement that they we the “keepers of the flame” so to speak. When they spread the message, it flowed out. They were the keepers of the “oracles of God” (Rom 3:2). And this matches the figure of the river of life in Ezekiel 47!

Of course, the problem with the Jews was that they didn’t spread the word. That’s why the mission was removed from them in the covenant lawsuit in Acts 7.

Hopefully this helps.

Ted

[InChristAlways]

ICA,

You seem to be trying to drink from a fire hose. There are so many topics that interest you. And that’s good, but it can be confusing. Let’s look at “salvation is of the Jews” in John 4:22. The phrase in Greek is he soteria ek ton Ieudaion estin. Literally this would be “the salvation is out of the Jews.” The problem is how “ek” is rendered. Some translations say “of,” as the one you quote. The NAS says “from.” That’s a bit better, but misses the impact of the Greek.

Put visually, Jesus’ statement in 4:22 might be best reflected in
John 7:38 38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.’”
In Genesis 12:3, Abraham’s descendants are commissioned to be missionaries. The gospel is to “flow out of them” to the world. That is the impact of ek. It speaks of something coming out of a state or situation with which it had intimate association. Thus, when salvation “comes out of” the Jews, it is a statement that they we the “keepers of the flame” so to speak. When they spread the message, it flowed out. They were the keepers of the “oracles of God” (Rom 3:2). And this matches the figure of the river of life in Ezekiel 47!

Of course, the problem with the Jews was that they didn’t spread the word. That’s why the mission was removed from them in the covenant lawsuit in Acts 7.

Hopefully this helps.

TedThanks Ted. I see what you mean. But the salvation Paul was talking about was not spritual, but from enemies of Christ. The house of Judah/Levi was corrupt of course, and they couldn't spread the word because of the "blindness" Jesus and Paul talked about.
But today, Israel is without excuse, because they read from the same scripture we do, the only difference being is they use oral writings and the Talmud to interpret it.
In either case, they interpret the scriptures to say Christ didn't come and because a lot of christians believe Christ is coming back "just for them" again, that makes it even more difficult for them to understand our own interpretation of scripture and they even mock us because of it. They don't know about the Holy Spirit or even that Christ was shown in the OT as not coming in the "ordinary" way they believe He will.
It just boils down to what interpretation is the correct one and as you stated, TRANSLATION is pretty important along with context. God bless.

[Ted]

ICA,

Modern Jews have a blind spot. If you show them Daniel 9, it speaks of the Messiah coming somewhere around AD30. (We don't have to fool with whose interpretation is correct, all of them point within a couple of years.) Now, either they can admit that the Messiah has come, or they have to declare Daniel a false prophet. But he is part of the Tanakh, their holy scriptures. So they are in a bind.

Ted

[InChristAlways]

ICA,

Modern Jews have a blind spot. If you show them Daniel 9, it speaks of the Messiah coming somewhere around AD30. (We don't have to fool with whose interpretation is correct, all of them point within a couple of years.) Now, either they can admit that the Messiah has come, or they have to declare Daniel a false prophet. But he is part of the Tanakh, their holy scriptures. So they are in a bind.

TedYep. They are also in a bind if they can't figure out this passage or any of malachi for that matter, and this is in the present tense of "cursing". The dung on their faces comes AFTER the messiah comes, so in order for the curse to be lifted, they have to either believe in Christ as the messiah or just live with the curse of being a "jew".
Hard to see how they can defy God by having priests serve in a temple like this.

Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already, Because you do not take [it] to heart. [i]3 "Behold, I will rebuke your descendants And spread Dung on your faces, The Dung of your solemn feasts; And [one] will take you away with it.

[Terral]

InChrist:
InChrist >> Salvation Of the Jews from "Egypt"?
You are sending people on a wild goose chase by starting a thread based upon a false premise. I continue to point out the truth to you, and still you try to divide Israel into different groups. Now you want to transform Egypt into Jews. Heh. Now that is funny . . . Paul tells you over and over again that Jews = Israel by saying “to the Jew first and also the Greek.” Rom. 1:16, 2:9, etc.. By “Greek” here Paul is talking about Gentiles in general. He says, “But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God . . .” Rom. 2:17. He is not talking about part of Israel here, but all of the descendents of Jacob who are under Mosaic Law. This twisted notion of yours that Scripture is dividing up “Jews” and “Israel” into different houses is dead wrong. Yes, there are times when OT (Jer. 31:31) and even NT (Heb. 8:8) does divide the twelve tribes, but Christ is not doing that in John 4.

“Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation* is from the Jews.”
Christ is including Himself as being a Jew. This is a topic in which practically none of the posters to this site can give an adequate answer, because almost nobody here understands the differences between the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, etc.) and Paul’s ‘Christ and Him crucified’ (1Cor. 2:2) gospel message. We can remove Paul’s gospel (Rom. 2:16, 16:25) from this discussion, because Christ is speaking in John 4, and long before He died for anybody. Where did the knowledge of salvation* originate for His people in the first place?

“And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High; For you will go on BEFORE THE LORD TO PREPARE HIS WAYS; to give to His people [ Israel Only ] the knowledge of salvation* by the forgiveness of their sins.”
How many of you gasped at the notion of “His people” being Israel only? Most of the people here believe Christ was sent to Jew and Gentile during the Four Gospels, when that is NOT THE TRUTH. What does Scripture say concerning to whom The Twelve and Christ were sent?

Matt. 10:5-7 “These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Matt 15:24 “But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
What did Christ Himself preach as ‘the gospel’ to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

Matt 4:23 “Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.”

Matt 9:35 “Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.”
John the Baptist brought the ‘knowledge of salvation’ by the ‘forgiveness of their sins’ from the beginning in Mark 1:4.

“John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.”
Then Christ came behind John the Baptist preaching the same thing:

“Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
This ‘gospel of the kingdom’ was to be accepted by the Jews FIRST. Then that ‘gospel of the kingdom’ was going to the whole wide world (Matt. 24:14). The ‘salvation’ that was ‘from the Jews’ was from this ‘gospel of the kingdom’ that Christ Himself preached in the Four Gospels. We all know that the Jews demanded the crucifixion of Christ (Matt. 27:22-31), and that the gospel of the kingdom was never accepted. That is the ‘transgression’ Paul writes about in Romans 11:11+12.

“I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them [ Israel ] jealous. Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!”
The salvation coming to the Gentiles is through our ‘Christ and Him crucified’ (1Cor. 2:2) gospel of the Pauline Epistles. Our forgiveness and redemption is through His shed blood. Eph. 1:7. We are not saved by baptism (1Pet. 3:21) like the kingdom disciples of the Four Gospels (Mark 1:4) and Acts (Acts 2:38). Their ‘fulfillment’ will come when Elijah comes to restore all things (Matt. 17:10+11). Therefore, the ‘salvation’ Christ is talking about is not Paul’s gospel for today. The gospel today is not carried by those obedient to the ‘gospel of the kingdom,’ but from the preacher (Rom. 1:14) preaching the ‘word concerning Christ’ (Rom. 1:17).

In Christ,

Terral

[InChristAlways]

Hi Terral,
I really didn't see an answer to the question of what "salvation" Paul was talking about be "near" for the saints.
It wasn't spiritual salvation, so was it salvation from the corrupt jews or from the romans?
You make long posts concerning the seperation of Israel, jews and gentiles when I am trying to say it didn't matter who was what, and as we know, God sent in the roman army after Paul was martyred and indeed did crush the synagogue of satan, the temple and corrupt jewish rulers. Dispensationalism confuses christians more than any other thing and please don't confuse this thread with different future programs for Israel in the future, ok?
thanks.


exodus 14:12 " this not the word that we told you in Egypt, saying, 'Let us alone that we may serve the Egyptians?' For [it would have been] better for us to serve the Egyptians than that we should die in the wilderness." [i]13 And Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. Stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which He will accomplish for you today. For the Egyptians whom you see today, you shall see again no more forever. 14 "The LORD will fight for you, and you shall hold your peace."


romans 13:11 And [do] this, knowing the time, that now high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation [is] nearer than when we [first] believed. [i]12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.

reve 11:8 And their dead bodies [will lie] in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

zech 14:17 And it shall be [that] whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they [shall have] no [rain;] they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

[Terral]

InChrist:
InChrist >> I really didn't see an answer to the question of what "salvation" Paul was talking about be "near" for the saints.
Perhaps your posts would make more sense, if you quoted somebody and spoke directly to specific points. Paul is preaching salvation by God’s grace through faith through the blood of Jesus Christ in his Epistles. That gospel message came about through the transgression of Israel rejecting the King (Jesus as Messiah) and nailing Him to a tree. The ‘gospel of the kingdom’ is the good news that the kingdom of heaven was ‘at hand’ (Matt. 3:2, 4:17, 10:7). It should not take a rocket scientist to figure out that Israel’s transgression (Rom. 11:11+12) is that they rejected the King and the Kingdom. Paul was raised up (Acts 9:15) during the time that Israel was already rejecting the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ which ‘was’ (Past tense) the ‘salvation of the Jews’ that Christ was talking about in John 4:22. Our ‘Christ and Him crucified’ (1Cor. 2:2) gospel of today is not salvation of the Jews, but salvation sent to all the nations (Rom. 16:25-27) apart and totally separate from Israel of the flesh. When the Baptist preacher preaches the good news of Christ’s shed blood, what does that have to do with Israel? Nothing! That is the point of my post, that the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ is ‘the salvation’ Christ is talking about, which has no power today.
InChrist >> It wasn't spiritual salvation, so was it salvation from the corrupt jews or from the romans?
Holy Molies . . . . There is no such thing as salvation from corrupt Jews or the Romans. This ‘corrupt jew’ doctrine of yours is a sore spot in your testimony that casts a long shadow on everything else you talk about.
InChrist >> You make long posts concerning the seperation of Israel, jews and gentiles when I am trying to say it didn't matter who was what, and as we know, God sent in the roman army after Paul was martyred and indeed did crush the synagogue of satan, the temple and corrupt jewish rulers.
The separation of Israel and the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) is the Biblical repercussion of Israel’s transgression (Rom. 11:11+12), which is the topic of this thread. That is what makes Christ’s statement about ‘salvation of the Jews’ obsolete and outdated for today. I am sorry if the facts in this case get in the way of your predetermined conclusions.
InChrist >> Dispensationalism confuses christians more than any other thing and please don't confuse this thread with different future programs for Israel in the future, ok? thanks.
When your OP is based upon a false premise, then getting the right answer means stepping outside the box. People with partial knowledge of the topic are confused by the facts they wish to ignore in justifying their errant interpretations and false conclusions. You seem to be saying that God’s Word is difficult to understand, because He made the Bible using too many words. It is impossible to correctly interpret the truth of your topic without consideration of the ‘dispensation’ Christ is addressing (in John 4:22; Israel only, Matt. 15:24) and contrasting that with the ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Eph. 3:2) in the world today. Shall we all go into our back yards and start building Arks, because the Lord God told Noah to? No. Why not? You refuse to acknowledge the fact that specific commands in Scripture are given to specific groups of People. Mosaic Law was given to Israel ONLY (Romans 9:1-4) and not everybody on the planet. Gentiles have never been under Mosaic Law (Rom. 2:14+15). Christ was sent to ISRAEL ONLY (Matt. 15:24) during the time of the Four Gospels. Paul is addressing Gentiles (Rom. 11:13) and the body of Christ (Rom. 12:4+5, Eph. 3:1-3, Col. 1:24-27) church throughout his Epistles. You are mixing the commands to everybody into one pot in order to take out what tastes good to you. It is no wonder that you are confused over statements made by anyone who has things rightly divided (2Tim. 2:15). But then, that is your problem and not mine . . .

In Christ,

Terral