Randy Alcorn on Grace

[just Johnna]

Hi all,

I'm posting on a book I'm reading. Here's the passage that's not settling:

The Grace and Truth Paradox[/U] by Randy Alcorn, page 44"]I'd imagined the distance between Dodd [a convicted murderer] and me as the difference between the South and North Poles. But when you consider God's viewpoint from light-years away, that distance is negligible. In my standing before a holy God, apart from Christ...I am Dodd. I am Dahmer. I am Mao.

The thought horrifies me, but it's true. It was also true of Florence Nightingale and Mother Theresa. This isn't hyperbole, it's biblical truth. Unless we come to grips with the fact we're of precisely the same stock--fallen humanity--as Dodd and Hitler and Stalin, we'll never appreciate Christ's grace.


I heard a similar model on the radio years ago, sort of "my righteousness is a skyscraper compared to this other guy, but the destination is across the galaxy so we're really indistinguishably falling short of the goal."

I think it's a useful idea in a limited context, but I also think it's a hyperbole. I guess I believe that anyone who is doing anything good that lasts, is doing so because of God's grace, so the comparison seems a bit false.

True, we are all fallen humanity, but Hitler and Stalin have made a certain effort to disregard a basic level of discernment given by God. We, being evil, still know the difference between bread and stone, fish and serpent, good and evil. Rejecting good is rejecting God. Again, the comparison seems a bit false.

I think one of my problems with this, is the experience of viewing oneself as loathsome, and experiencing the joy of being released from that, is an essentially noncomparative experience. At least, it was for me.

Also, it is a fruit of trusting in Christ that we move/grow/develop towards heaven, even if never sufficiently so. It's biblical to say we all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God, but is it biblically true to say we're all Pol Pot?

If so, please provide Biblical passages that show we are all Pol Pot.

[Teallaura]

Hi all,

I'm posting on a book I'm reading. Here's the passage that's not settling:

The Grace and Truth Paradox[/u] by Randy Alcorn, page 44"]I'd imagined the distance between Dodd [a convicted murderer] and me as the difference between the South and North Poles. But when you consider God's viewpoint from light-years away, that distance is negligible. In my standing before a holy God, apart from Christ...I am Dodd. I am Dahmer. I am Mao.

The thought horrifies me, but it's true. It was also true of Florence Nightingale and Mother Theresa. This isn't hyperbole, it's biblical truth. Unless we come to grips with the fact we're of precisely the same stock--fallen humanity--as Dodd and Hitler and Stalin, we'll never appreciate Christ's grace.


I heard a similar model on the radio years ago, sort of "my righteousness is a skyscraper compared to this other guy, but the destination is across the galaxy so we're really indistinguishably falling short of the goal."

I think it's a useful idea in a limited context, but I also think it's a hyperbole. I guess I believe that anyone who is doing anything good that lasts, is doing so because of God's grace, so the comparison seems a bit false.

True, we are all fallen humanity, but Hitler and Stalin have made a certain effort to disregard a basic level of discernment given by God. We, being evil, still know the difference between bread and stone, fish and serpent, good and evil. Rejecting good is rejecting God. Again, the comparison seems a bit false.

I think one of my problems with this, is the experience of viewing oneself as loathsome, and experiencing the joy of being released from that, is an essentially noncomparative experience. At least, it was for me.

Also, it is a fruit of trusting in Christ that we move/grow/develop towards heaven, even if never sufficiently so. It's biblical to say we all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God, but is it biblically true to say we're all Pol Pot?

If so, please provide Biblical passages that show we are all Pol Pot.
Hi!

Sweetheart, you probably don't really want a Scriptural review of 'total depravity' - You don't need it to be convicted of sin, and you certainly don't need to hate yourself. That isn't the point of the comparison.

I had a bible study teacher years ago give a good talk on pride - that had zilch to do with me. I had had trouble understanding that it's okay to love oneself (you kinda have to 'love your neighbor as yourself'). It's the loving yourself too much part where we get in trouble - but I hated myself, so I didn't get that. His pride discussion stung because I was trying on a small glove on my size five foot! Of course it didn't fit!

Not every sermon, discussion, what have you, will apply to you at a given time. You are seeing this as an affirmation of total depravity - and it doesn't fit you or you spiritual needs. It's okay to put it back on the shelf. You may need it later (I did with that pride stuff!) but you don't need it now.

The comparison highlights the difference between human righteousness and God's righteousness. From a human perspective, with our scale of righteousness, it is hyperbole: From God's perspective, with His own perfection the standard, it isn't hyperbole, it's sadly true.

But God loves you, Baby! He doesn't want you to hate yourself and that's not what the passage is trying to get you to do. It's only a comparison of righteousness. Put it back on the shelf. You don't need it right now.

God loves you - He doesn't want you filled with self-loathing and you already know it! If later you need to understand that distinction, you've got the info and God will help you understand it. For now, it really doesn't seem to apply, does it? Just lay it aside and go right on trusting the God who loves you.

Hope this helps, I know it wasn't exactly what you asked.

God Bless!

[Alberta girl]

Hi all,

I'm posting on a book I'm reading. Here's the passage that's not settling:

The Grace and Truth Paradox[/u] by Randy Alcorn, page 44"]I'd imagined the distance between Dodd [a convicted murderer] and me as the difference between the South and North Poles. But when you consider God's viewpoint from light-years away, that distance is negligible. In my standing before a holy God, apart from Christ...I am Dodd. I am Dahmer. I am Mao.

The thought horrifies me, but it's true. It was also true of Florence Nightingale and Mother Theresa. This isn't hyperbole, it's biblical truth. Unless we come to grips with the fact we're of precisely the same stock--fallen humanity--as Dodd and Hitler and Stalin, we'll never appreciate Christ's grace.


I heard a similar model on the radio years ago, sort of "my righteousness is a skyscraper compared to this other guy, but the destination is across the galaxy so we're really indistinguishably falling short of the goal."

I think it's a useful idea in a limited context, but I also think it's a hyperbole. I guess I believe that anyone who is doing anything good that lasts, is doing so because of God's grace, so the comparison seems a bit false.

True, we are all fallen humanity, but Hitler and Stalin have made a certain effort to disregard a basic level of discernment given by God. We, being evil, still know the difference between bread and stone, fish and serpent, good and evil. Rejecting good is rejecting God. Again, the comparison seems a bit false.

I think one of my problems with this, is the experience of viewing oneself as loathsome, and experiencing the joy of being released from that, is an essentially noncomparative experience. At least, it was for me.

Also, it is a fruit of trusting in Christ that we move/grow/develop towards heaven, even if never sufficiently so. It's biblical to say we all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God, but is it biblically true to say we're all Pol Pot?

If so, please provide Biblical passages that show we are all Pol Pot.
I can't show you how we are all pol-pot. But David is a great example. He was a man after God's own heart. He slew Goliath, believeing God would give him the victory, he showed compassion for a relative of Saul to honor a promise to Jonathan, and a few years later he sent a soldier to his death so he could bed the soldiers wife. Today I could be living in God's perfect will for my life, tomorrow, well tomorrow isn't here yet. God is not a respecter of persons; he doesn't let a guy 'pass' on evil behaviour because of some earlier goodness and he doesn't withold forgiveness to the tuly penitant. I hope that helps.

[just Johnna]

Teallaura--it may not have been exactly what I asked, but you answer very perceptively, very pertinent to myself. Thank you.

I will take up your advice to shelf it, though at present it seems to fail the "objective feedback" test. I didn't forget the radio version, which I must have heard almost ten years ago, so I'll trust this idea will also be at hand when called for.



he doesn't let a guy 'pass' on evil behaviour because of some earlier goodness and he doesn't withold forgiveness to the truly penitant.
This is my way of thinking of it, and how I read the Bible.

But on the other hand, I was surprised you said it, because it seems to go against the Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) idea.




Sweetheart, you probably don't really want a Scriptural review of 'total depravity' - You don't need it to be convicted of sin, and you certainly don't need to hate yourself. That isn't the point of the comparison.

I had a bible study teacher years ago give a good talk on pride - that had zilch to do with me. I had had trouble understanding that it's okay to love oneself (you kinda have to 'love your neighbor as yourself'). It's the loving yourself too much part where we get in trouble - but I hated myself, so I didn't get that. His pride discussion stung because I was trying on a small glove on my size five foot! Of course it didn't fit!

Not every sermon, discussion, what have you, will apply to you at a given time. You are seeing this as an affirmation of total depravity - and it doesn't fit you or you spiritual needs. It's okay to put it back on the shelf. You may need it later (I did with that pride stuff!) but you don't need it now.

The comparison highlights the difference between human righteousness and God's righteousness. From a human perspective, with our scale of righteousness, it is hyperbole: From God's perspective, with His own perfection the standard, it isn't hyperbole, it's sadly true.

But God loves you, Baby! He doesn't want you to hate yourself and that's not what the passage is trying to get you to do. It's only a comparison of righteousness. Put it back on the shelf. You don't need it right now.

God loves you - He doesn't want you filled with self-loathing and you already know it! If later you need to understand that distinction, you've got the info and God will help you understand it. For now, it really doesn't seem to apply, does it? Just lay it aside and go right on trusting the God who loves you.

Hope this helps, I know it wasn't exactly what you asked.

God Bless!

[Alberta girl]

But on the other hand, I was surprised you said it, because it seems to go against the Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) idea.
Well, the jury is still out for me on OSAS.

[just Johnna]

Well, the jury is still out for me on OSAS.I don't believe OSAS, it doesn't fit all the verses encouraging us to persevere and be stedfast. But that's just me, and how I'll think about it until convinced otherwise.