Is the birth of Christ portrayed in Rev 12?

[eschaton]

The woman was in heaven. The dragon was in heaven. So wasn't the baby
born in heaven? It doesn't say he was snatched up to heaven, but to
God and his throne.

It appears the woman goes to earth in 12:6, and the dragon in 12:9.

Could 12:4 be an allusion to Daniel 8:10?

12:1 says the woman is in heaven.
12:3 says the dragon is in heaven.
12:4 says the dragon is before the woman as she was ready to give
birth.

I don't think we can escape the fact that the man child is born in
heaven. Heaven is spoken of as God's throne, but in Revelation we
are told that His throne is in heaven (4:2).

Compare this vision to Gen 37:9.
Exactly what Israel meant isn't clear since Joeseph's mother had
already died (35:19). He may have meant her sister Leah, but
regardless Israel's interpretation wasn't literally fulfilled in the
OT. Only the brothers bowed down later (43:26-28).

So I would say that it is a mistake to interpret the woman as
Israel or Mary. The heavenly Jersalem is identified as the mother of us all
in Galatians 4:26. Since the new Jerusalem is seen as the bride of
Christ and the offspring of the woman are identified as christian in
Rev 12, I think the symbolism is more in line to show the woman as
the church and the mother of all christians.

If I were a first century Christian I think I would take note that this was supposed to be a prophecy, and the man child was born in heaven.

The remnant of her seed are identified as christians. So who is
the mother of christians?

The heavenly Jerusalem is mother to those of the spirit whom the
dragon wishes to devour (1 Pet 5:8). The spirit of God gives power
over the dragons temptations. The catching away to God is the power
the overcomer has been given to resist the wiley predator (Rev 2:26,
17:14).

The mother is the doctrine of the church that gives faith, and the
spirit is the man child that is given protection by the Father.
That's an idealistic interpretation that I prefer.

17th century Bible commentator Matthew Henry wrote:

The church, under the emblem of a woman, the mother of believers, was seen by the apostle in vision, in heaven. She was clothed with the sun, justified, sanctified, and shining by union with Christ, the Sun of Righteousness. The moon was under her feet; she was superior to the reflected and feebler light of the revelation made by Moses. Having on her head a crown of twelve stars; the doctrine of the gospel, preached by the twelve apostles, is a crown of glory to all true believers. As in pain to bring forth a holy family; desirous that the conviction of sinners might end in their conversion...

[spiritmech]

The NIV translates this as "heaven" ... the New American (Catholic) Bible translates it as "sky."

I'm not sure which is more correct, but I'm not sure how it works. The woman (church) births Christ? I thought Christ was the head, so He is the one who starts the church.

I do think that "the Church" is a better interpretation than "Israel," though. But I am biased and I think it's Mary.
SM

[eschaton]

The NIV translates this as "heaven" ... the New American (Catholic) Bible translates it as "sky."

I'm not sure which is more correct, but I'm not sure how it works. The woman (church) births Christ? I thought Christ was the head, so He is the one who starts the church.

I do think that "the Church" is a better interpretation than "Israel," though. But I am biased and I think it's Mary.
SM

I like the way Matthew Henry sees the birth as an end of conviction in the converted. That of course is an idealistic interpretation.

[Etcetera]

SpiritMech:

The NIV translates this as "heaven" ... the New American (Catholic) Bible translates it as "sky."

I'm not sure which is more correct....

Both are correct. Many (if not most) ancient languages use their word for sky to designate the abode of God (or, in polytheistic religions, the gods). Greek is no exception. The word for sky or heaven in Greek is ουρανος. In Hebrew the word for both sky and heaven is שמים (shamayim). How we translate these terms into English depends on how we perceive what the text is saying.

Spanish, too, has the same word for sky and for heaven (cielo).

I might point out that quite a few religious terms in ancient languages are like that: English has two terms (one sacred, one secular) where Hebrew and Greek have only one, whose meaning is quite mundane in most contexts. For instance, what we call the spirit in English literally is breath or wind in Greek. (I recall with some fondness a fellow student in a college Greek class who happened to be both a friend of mine and an avowed pagan. She asked whether the term holy spirit would not be better translated as holy wind. The professor sort of glared, said no, and continued with the lesson with no further explanation.)

In him.

Etcetera.

[Montfortt]

No it is not the birth of Christ.But some of the people are conformed to Christ.Many conformed to Satan and the world.

But it is the birth of a nation.Can a nation be born in a day is the theme.

Woman in the sky=(Galatians 4:24 Sarah) Heavenly Church concerned only with heavenly things(Primitive Reformed Separatist Church)

Overcoming the Moon=While in Amsterdam and Leiden Separatists inoculated against Anabaptist Neo Zionistic (Mormon like) error and LUNACY(pun intended) of pale earthly fake Jerusalem.

Woman running in wilderness=(Galatians 4:24 Hagar) Legalistic earthbound church concerned with earthly things(Waves of Puritian migration to New England)

Great Red Dragon with Ten Heads= Goverment of Satan typified by Monarchy & European Church State systems and Papacy.Puritians were trying to purify satan.

Man Child= Constitutional (Mayflower compact) Self governing democratic goverment under Christ.A written document ruling the people was allowed because some that came on Mayflower were not Christian.

Ascending to the throne= Plymouth took a Abraham like short lived role never lived to see fufilment of full national birth.Seed like role.Died and buried in faith.

Rod of Iron= Pilgrims walking ashore with Mayflower Compact in hand and stepping on Plymouth Rock fufilled smashing of statue in Daniel 2.Begining of the end of rule by king on earth.

Pretty much the rest is too lengthy to fit in this post but it is on.


www.seedoffaith.injesus.com (http://www.seedoffaith.injesus.com)

[Lion]

The woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet is a symbol. It is like a cartoon picture, which represents something. Prophecy presents pictures that everyone can understand. They are timeless pictures. You might say God invented cartoons. The Revelation is full of cartoon like characters. They don’t mean what they appear, just like modern cartoons where an elephant means the Republican party and a donkey is the Democrat.

Clothed with the sun represents the glory of and purity of the Christian message of salvation. She has the moon under her feet, symbolizing that the message of salvation is based on the types and symbols of the Hebrew sanctuary and temple service. As the moon reflects the light of the sun, the sanctuary service meant, was a type or reflection of the true light of the messiah who was to come. The crown she wears is the Greek word stephanos, or laurel wreath worn by the vctors in the Olympic games. The twelve stars are the twelve apostles.

The red dragon also represents Satan, an an angel who was close to God.

Ezek. 28:14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek. 28:15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
Ezek. 28:16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.

Lucifer rebelled. He wanted to be a god, which he could not be, since he was a created being. Finally God couldn’t stand him any more. God’s rule is based on love and trust and Lucifer was slanderer. He dared not kill him, because if He did God would appear to be a tyrant who could not tolerate dissent.

s. 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Is. 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Is. 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Rev. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

So God changed his name from Lucifer or light bearer to Satan, the accuser.

Rev. 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev. 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Continuing our analysis of the picture, Lucifer had gotten a third of the angels to agree with him.

Yes, the birth of Christ was portrayed in symbolic terms. Satan, acting through Herod, tried to kill Jesus. But He escaped to Egypt.

Rev. 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Christ ascended to heaven.

Rev. 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev. 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev. 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This explains the origin of Satan. He was expelled from heaven and he managed to deceive our first parents. But God knew Eve had had been tricked into taking the forbidden fruit, so God provided a way of escape by Christ’s death. But how is God to get rid of the sin problem. He is allowing Satan to have his rule on this earth until the entire universe has seen the result of how Satan’s rule results.

It should be evident to all by this time that Satan’s rule has resulted in all the evil in the world. When that happens, Christ will return and all unrepentant sinners and the evil angels will be destroyed.

[jesterbr549]

If the Male Child is born in heaven, how can he then be caught up to heaven after his birth?

No, this is not about Y'shua.

It is refering to the 'birth' of the Male Child from the Nation of Ephraim - Messiah bar Ephraim.

How do I know this?

The original dream that this symbolism is drawn from is Joseph's second dream in which the Sun and Moon and Eleven stars bowed down to him. His first dream of the Eleven Sheafs bowing down to him was fulfilled in the famine in Egypt when his brothers bowed down to him, however, his second dream was never fulfilled for, his mother was already dead by the time that they went to Egypt and his father made it a point of NOT bowing down to Joseph when he went to Egypt and, therefore, the dream will be fulfilled in the future and the fulfillment of it is the point of the Sign of the Male Child in Revelation 12. Since the original dream was given to Joseph than the fulfillment of the dream will be realized in one of Joseph's descendants and not Judah's which then rules out Y'shua.

Here is the interpretation of the Sign.

The Sun is a father figure in Israel during the time of Jacob's trouble and will assuredly be one of the Two witnesses and I have shown from the Scriptures that this WILL BE Moses (contrary to popular opinion) who was anciently a father figure in Israel. The Moon would thus be a mother figure and is assuredly the second witness who is Elijah a 'mother' figure who nursed the nation through their apostasy and revival (these first two are exactly parrelled by George Washington the 'father' of this republic and by Abe Lincoln who nursed us through the civil war).

In accordance with the original interpretation the 12 stars are, therefore, the sons of Israel and thus this can only be the 144,000 from 12 tribes. Further, Ephraim and Manasseh replaced Joseph and were given equal portions with their uncles and thus Ephraim, as last born, was the Thirteenth Son (thus the 13th star) to whom the other 12 'bow' down to. To Ephraim was given the position of Firstborn by Jacob himself and thus the Male Child of the Apocalypse is Messiah bar Ephraim who is destined to sit on David's throne as Vice Regent to Y'shua as clearly spelled out by Ezekiel.

And, he is mentioned by name in Jeremiah and Hosea and Ezekial and this is not refering to resurrected King David for this individual has sons during the Millenium which Y'shua says the resurrected saints will not have.

[Lion]

I thought I had seen the ultimate iin screwy interepretations, but this takes the prize for screwball interpretations. jesterbr549 you take the prize.

If the Male Child is born in heaven, how can he then be caught up to heaven after his birth?

He was NOT born in heaven. He was born on earth with Mary his mother.

No, this is not about Y'shua.

Sorry, he was Jesus the Christ

It is refering to the 'birth' of the Male Child from the Nation of Ephraim - Messiah bar Ephraim.

Sorry, Judah
How do I know this?
Luke 2:4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David,

The original dream that this symbolism is drawn from is Joseph's second dream in which the Sun and Moon and Eleven stars bowed down to him. His first dream of the Eleven Sheafs bowing down to him was fulfilled in the famine in Egypt when his brothers bowed down to him, however, his second dream was never fulfilled for, his mother was already dead by the time that they went to Egypt and his father made it a point of NOT bowing down to Joseph when he went to Egypt and, therefore, the dream will be fulfilled in the future and the fulfillment of it is the point of the Sign of the Male Child in Revelation 12. Since the original dream was given to Joseph than the fulfillment of the dream will be realized in one of Joseph's descendants and not Judah's which then rules out Y'shua.

NOT SO

Even the Catholics say the woman clothed with the sun is the christan church and the child is Christ, the messiah.

[eschaton]

Comments from early church fathers:


The woman who appeared in heaven clothed with the sun, and crowned with twelve stars, and having the moon for her footstool, and being with child, and travailing in birth, is certainly, according to the accurate interpretation, our mother,14 O virgins, being a power by herself distinct from her children; whom the prophets, according to the aspect of their subjects, have called sometimes Jerusalem, sometimes a Bride, sometimes Mount Zion, and sometimes the Temple and Tabernacle of God.
Methodius, Discourse VIII.-Thekla.
Chapter V.-The Woman Who Brings Forth, to Whom the Dragon is Opposed, the Church; Her Adornment and Grace.

If any one, for there is no difficulty in speaking distinctly, should be vexed, and reply to what we have said: "But how, O virgins, can this explanation seem to you to be according to the mind of Scripture, when the Apocalypse plainly defines that the Church brings forth a male, while you teach that her labour-pains have their fulfilment in those who are washed in the laver? Chapter VII.-The Child of the Woman in the Apocalypse Not Christ, But the Faithful Who are Born in the Laver.

Elucidations. ...Gregory the Great regards the woman as the Christian Church.

61. By the woman then clothed with the sun," he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father's word,143 whose brightness is above the sun. And by the "moon under her feet" he referred to her being adorned, like the moon, with heavenly glory. And the words, "upon her head a crown of twelve stars," refer to the twelve apostles by whom the Church was founded. And those, "she, being with child, cries, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered," mean that the Church will not cease to bear from her heart144 the Word that is persecuted by the unbelieving in the world. "And she brought forth," he says, "a man-child, who is to rule all the nations; "by which is meant that the Church, always bringing forth Christ, the perfect man-child of God, who is declared to be God and man, becomes the instructor of all the nations. Hippolytus. - Treatise on Christ and Antichrist.

The woman clothed with the sun, and having the moon under her feet, and wearing a crown of twelve stars upon her head, and travailing in her pains, is the ancient Church of fathers, and prophets, and saints, and apostles,57 which had the groans and torments of its longing until it saw that Christ, the fruit of its people according to the flesh long promised to it, had taken flesh out of the selfsame people. Victorinus - Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John

A vision with similar imagery from the Pastor of Hermas. -
Now after I had passed by the wild beast, and had moved forward about thirty feet, lo! a virgin meets me, adorned as if she were proceeding from the bridal chamber, clothed entirely in white, and with white sandals, and veiled up to her forehead, and her head was covered by a hood.10 And she had white hair. I knew from my former visions that this was the Church, and I became more joyful. She saluted me, and said, "Hail, O man!" And I returned her salutation, and said, "Lady, hail!" And she answered. and said to me, "Has nothing crossed your path? "I say, "I was met by a beast of such a size that it could destroy peoples, but through the power of the Lord11 and His great mercy I escaped from it." The Pastor of Hermas, Vision Fourth, Chapter II.