Christian counselors, what do you think of Jay Adams? [Archive]

misterguss

January 6th 2005, 08:42 PM

Jay Adams is an interesting fellow...from what I have read in his books, some of his writings (1970's) consist of basically throwing out psychology as a whole and encouraging Christians to use the Bible as the only source for counseling. Though he had many valid points, I disagree with some of his points. I believe the Bible is the authority....and anything psychology teaches that goes against what the Bible says should be ignored...but psychology offers so many good things that do not go against the Bible! These things should not be thrown out just because they aren't from the God's Word.

What do you do when you break your arm? You go to a medical doctor to get it checked out even though the doctor did not learn from the Bible, but from medicine.
What do you do when you have a chemical imbalance in your brain? You go to a doctor (psychologist/psychiatrist) to get checked out even though the doctor didn't learn from the Bible, but from psychology.

He has a great understanding of the Bible and how to apply it to most every situation...but what are you going to do when your client has a chemical imbalance in their brain? Verses out of the Bible cannot change that (unless God chooses to perform a miracle).

Adams has great material but I don't agree with everything...

dizzle

January 6th 2005, 10:18 PM

At my church there seems to be a bit of that trend. At one point I would have probably went that route, until I had my bout of true clinical depression.

theseed

January 6th 2005, 10:23 PM

I argued with people who are share Adams' beliefs. However, I find that his understanding of psychology is highly misconstrued and his views very extreme.

In Acts 17, we know that Paul borrowed from secular culture to preach the Gospel--and left Scripture out. There are other examples as well of Paul quoting secular ideas and works.

Adams, I think, believes that all psychology is humanistic. But there are many theoretical orientations. For 50 years, it was dominated by behaviorism--which totally falls outside of what he thinks of. Also, he believes there is no such thing as mental illness, and people need to take responsibility for thier actions.

As a counselor (student) and a Christian, I seek to borrow those pratical things from psychology--knowledge. We all use knowledge, medicine, science, education. Which reminds me, Educatoin is a practice of psychology. Should we abandon learning? The Anmerican education system is found no where in The Bible.

Disclaimer--I may be misinformed about Adams' on some things, but I've seen his "type".

Also, I've read that his technique is confrontation--he finds out what sins a person is guilty of confronts them on it, and pressures them into guilt and repentance.

mrsnacks

January 21st 2005, 11:57 PM

Dee Dee : I would like to recommend a few books that have helped me in understanding where Adams is coming from. I have a few of Adams' books as well along with a lot of tapes. I have about 5 books by the Martin and Deidre Bobgan. They also have a website called Psychoheresy.com I believe or something like that. I have also talked to both of them personally many years ago.

They have taken on quite a few christian counselors and you won't hear them on christian radio . They are too controversial. They have even challenged a few to debate but were declined. The reason is that their claim is a lot of what is being taught by these christian counselors is not biblical . They say that what most of them do is take the pressuppositions of secular psychology and then sort of christianize them by adding verses to
fit . They incorporate teachings of Freud, Jung, Adler,Maslow, Rogers and others . Rather than understanding people of the Bible through the context of scripture , these psychologists see them through the lenses of their own psychological theories is what they are saying. They also take on the 12 step programs etc. I agree with most of what they say and they provide a lot of documentation and scripture . The thing is that many of these christian counselors are the sacred cows of the church and how dare anyone disagree or speak out against Dobson, Crabb, Smalley, Minirth and Meier , and the rest of them.

I had a conversation with a christian lady sometime ago who was the head of an AA group at a church. After reading Bobgans books I had brought up a few facts along with some questions in our discussion of AA. She brought the subject up by the way. . She was so upset at me for even questioning AA. One of the questions I asked her was if AA. was effective ? Did she have any documentation or proof? I mean churches have AA programs. I thought christians started AA and that was what I was told. I mean all truth is God's truth, but what about the idea of AA coming to 2 people through a seance .
Anyway, more of this in their books along with a critique of AA. It was if I questioned the truth of the Bible to this lady friend. She stormed of and wanted nothing to do with me since.

There was a study mentioned in one of the books that found no differences at a 12 month follow up between AA and no treatment.
Also Dittman and Crawford (1966) assigned court mandated "alcohol addicts" to AA., clinic treatment ,or no treatment (probation only ).Based on records of rearrest ,31% of AA clients and 32% of clinic treatment clients were judged successful, as compared with 44% success in the untreated group. (Dittman ,Crawford, Forgy ,Moskowitz, & MacAndrew ,1967. The bottom line as I brought up to my former friend is that the alleged effectiveness of AA remains unproved.

What I can also say is that through my personal experiences and those of my friends and and family -- Adams and the Bobgans are pretty much right on. The psychobabble today is a mix and blend of the systems of the world with God's promises and His Word. Transformation can only come from being born from above and walking in the Spirit and His Word rather than by the old ways. Adams is saying the same thing.

I have had quite a few friends from way back( my old life ) who were involved in drug addiction. And each one who has success in conquering their addiction did it with the help of God alone by themselves.
And not through the many AA meetings they attended for years. I am sure that there are some that have been helped by AA. I am not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Reading their books and talking with the Bobgans has raised yellow flags of caution when it comes to psychology especially coming from christian counselors. That's all. :eek:
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Dee Dee says :
At my church there seems to be a bit of that trend. At one point I would have probably went that route, until I had my bout of true clinical depression.
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In their books they do address that.

mrsnacks

January 22nd 2005, 01:03 AM

Go to a psychiatrist ? Psychiatric drugs are dangerous my friend :In fact I haven't been to a doctor in ages. My wife and I use alternative methods and treatment. They prescribe drugs for one thing. These drugs that they prescribe are toxic and potentially lethal. In relation to children ?

Consider these facts. There were 186 Ritalin-related heart deaths reported to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) during the 1990s. Because the system of reporting is voluntary, experts believe that this figure represents only 1-10 percent of the actual number of deaths. In other words, from this one drug alone, during a ten-year period, there were 1,800 to 18,000 deaths. In addition, because of evidence indicating their potential for inducing suicidal thinking and behavior in children, the United Kingdom has banned, for children, the use of all but one of the antidepressants known as Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRI's such as Paxil, Zoloft, Celexa, Effexor and Remeron). The FDA is investigating the matter, but thus far has issued only a warning.

That over 10 million of our nation's children are on these drugs is intensely disturbing isn't it ? That parents are being cajoled, threatened and forced to drug their children is no less troubling. People in the schools and in our Child Protective Service (CPS) agencies have become such true believers in the value of drugging our children that they are using coercion on parents. This helps explain why it was necessary for the 2003 Texas legislature to pass House Bills 1406 and 320 prohibiting schools and CPS employees, respectively, from pressuring parents to drug their children. Many other states have enacted similar legislation.

The problem you have is that you are assuming that these psychiatrists and psychologists know what they are doing. It is not like a medical doctor. You are taking apples and oranges to a grape convention here. The practice of medicine deals with the physical biological aspects of a person. Psychotherapy deals with the spiritual ,social, , mental and emotional aspects. One can develop a theory for explaining all human behavior and then interpret all behavior in light of that explanation. There is plenty of subjectivity in psychotherapy. In studies that I have read-- amateurs did better than the professionals. And in the Essenyk ( sorry about the spelling ) research study -- he showed that patients were better off in the long run NOT going to psychiatrists.

Research psychiatrist E,Fuller Torrey says and I quote -" The techniques used by Western psychiatrists are with few exceptions , on exactly the same scientific plane as the techniques used by witch doctors. " For Dee Dee -psychiatrist Lee Coleman in his book "The Reign of Error argues that " psychiatry does not deserve the legal power it has been given " and contends that " psychiatry is not science. "

Dr. Karl Popper - great philosopher of science has examined psychological theories having to do with understanding and treating human behavior. He says that these theories ," though posing as sciences , had more in common with primitive myths than with science; that they resembled astrology rather than astronomy. "

The actual foundations of psychotherapy are not science, but rather various philosophical world views. Yellow flags .

"According to His Divine power hath given to us ALL THINGS THAT PERTAIN UNTO LIFE AND GODLINESS ,THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM THAT HATH CALLED US TO GLORY AND VIRTUE.

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises : that by these ye might be partakers of the Divine nature ,having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. " 2 Peter 1:3-4

misterguss

January 22nd 2005, 04:07 AM

Do you think that there can be physical problems with the brain, just like there can be physical problems with the heart, liver, kidneys, etc.?

If so, then how can the brain, just like any other part of the body, get proper treatment?

Do you tell a person with heart problems to pray and read their Bible, and if they don't heal, you tell them they don't have enough faith?

I heard shamanistic healers have a good success rate...maybe we should wave a bone with feathers over them and they will be healed...just a thought :teeth:

misterguss

January 22nd 2005, 04:51 AM

The reason is that their claim is a lot of what is being taught by these Christian counselors is not biblical. They say that what most of them do is take the pressuppositions of secular psychology and then sort of christianize them by adding verses to fit .

It all depends what circles you are involved with. There are many well respected Christian counselors where I live that know the Bible very well and treat it as the authority when compared to psychological theories.

I also know of some very poor "Christian" counselors as well.

They incorporate teachings of Freud, Jung, Adler,Maslow, Rogers and others .

If a Christian counselor keeps the Bible as the authority over these teachings, please show me how it is sin.

Rather than understanding people of the Bible through the context of scripture, these psychologists see them through the lenses of their own psychological theories is what they are saying. They also take on the 12 step programs etc.

Again, it comes down to the circles you are involved with. I wouldn't consider a counselor who holds to a psychological theory as authority over Scripture a Christian counselor either.

I guess you didn't realize that the 12 step program is taken directly out of Scripture.

I had a conversation with a christian lady sometime ago who was the head of an AA group at a church. After reading Bobgans books I had brought up a few facts along with some questions in our discussion of AA. She brought the subject up by the way. . She was so upset at me for even questioning AA. One of the questions I asked her was if AA. was effective ? Did she have any documentation or proof? I mean churches have AA programs. I thought christians started AA and that was what I was told. I mean all truth is God's truth, but what about the idea of AA coming to 2 people through a seance .

Anyway, more of this in their books along with a critique of AA. It was if I questioned the truth of the Bible to this lady friend. She stormed of and wanted nothing to do with me since.

Your one experience doesn't mean it's the same across the board.

You can rip on AA all you want...but that doesn't make it a sin to attend these meetings. Give em a break! They could be at home stuck in the same habits!

It's amazing how quickly a Christian can judge a person who is trying to change...

What I can also say is that through my personal experiences and those of my friends and and family

Again, your experiences does not mean it's the same across the board. You are lumping all Christian counselors into the same pile of dung. It's clear that you have not experienced or seen any success in the Christian counseling realm...and that's very sad.

The idea of lumping "Christian" counselors who see psychological theories as more important than the Bible with Christian counselors who see psychological theories as useful, but not more important than the Bible is foolish...and shows your bias towards the Christian Psychologist/Psychiatrist/Counselor/Whateveryouwannacallit.

dizzle

January 22nd 2005, 10:12 AM

theseed

January 22nd 2005, 12:02 PM

That over 10 million of our nation's children are on these drugs is intensely disturbing isn't it ? That parents are being cajoled, threatened and forced to drug their children is no less troubling. People in the schools and in our Child Protective Service (CPS) agencies have become such true believers in the value of drugging our children that they are using coercion on parents. This helps explain why it was necessary for the 2003 Texas legislature to pass House Bills 1406 and 320 prohibiting schools and CPS employees, respectively, from pressuring parents to drug their children. Many other states have enacted similar legislation.

Many children would die without those drugs. Have you heard of Diabetes Mellitus or Cystic Fribrosis? What about cancer?

The problem you have is that you are assuming that these psychiatrists and psychologists know what they are doing. It is not like a medical doctor. You are taking apples and oranges to a grape convention here. The practice of medicine deals with the physical biological aspects of a person. Psychotherapy deals with the spiritual ,social, , mental and emotional aspects. One can develop a theory for explaining all human behavior and then interpret all behavior in light of that explanation. There is plenty of subjectivity in psychotherapy. In studies that I have read-- amateurs did better than the professionals. And in the Essenyk ( sorry about the spelling ) research study -- he showed that patients were better off in the long run NOT going to psychiatrists
See, this is where you are clearly wrong. Psychatriatry is a branch of medicine, and all psychatrist are Medical Doctors (MD's). Furthermore, as indicated by your post, (SSRI's) psychatriy is biological based.
Research psychiatrist E,Fuller Torrey says and I quote -" The techniques used by Western psychiatrists are with few exceptions , on exactly the same scientific plane as the techniques used by witch doctors. " For Dee Dee -psychiatrist Lee Coleman in his book "The Reign of Error argues that " psychiatry does not deserve the legal power it has been given " and contends that " psychiatry is not science. "

I can see that you read these things, but you understand the terminology behind them. Psychiatry like Pediatry and Geriatry are medical practices--not sciences. This also shows that your sources are clearly ignorant of the facts as well.

Dr. Karl Popper - great philosopher of science has examined psychological theories having to do with understanding and treating human behavior. He says that these theories ," though posing as sciences , had more in common with primitive myths than with science; that they resembled astrology rather than astronomy. "

He can't be all that great of a philospher, because there are proven theories such as classical conditioning and operatent conditioning that are based on directly oberservable and measurable evidence, and can be repeated using the scientific method.

The actual foundations of psychotherapy are not science, but rather various philosophical world views. Yellow flags .
Once again, You reveal that you don't understand the terminology. Most theorists are not psychotherapy but counseling--there is a difference. Psychotherapy deals with sever mental disorders and longterm treatment, whereas counseling aids people with more everday common issues.

Of course. But does that mean we throw the baby out with the bath water? Rogers is humanistic, should we refuse to listen to clients in counseling sessoins because of this? The techniques of these theorists.

According to His Divine power hath given to us ALL THINGS THAT PERTAIN UNTO LIFE AND GODLINESS ,THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM THAT HATH CALLED US TO GLORY AND VIRTUE.

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises : that by these ye might be partakers of the Divine nature ,having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. " 2 Peter 1:3-4

God gives us evething we need for salvation (life and godliness). Are you aware that Paul borrowed material from Pagans and incorperated it into his writings, which are now in The Bible? Also, Luke cites Paul as quoting Pagans (Acts 17).

theseed

January 22nd 2005, 12:03 PM

misterguss

January 22nd 2005, 04:28 PM

I am predisposed to be suspicious somewhat of a blanket condemnation of "secular" psychology. I went through a serious clinical depression and the condemnations that are lobbed even against using anti-depressives when needed were discouraging. However, the Biblical counseling did help once I had control of my brain once again, and it does help with my OCD. Reciting the Lord's Prayer in times of mental stress is very healing to me.
I don't think people who are against "psychological drugs" have a true understanding of the reality of mental disorders. Back when the chemicals in your brain were outta wack, can you describe what it was like? Maybe to help shed some light to those who disagree with drugs...

Cause I don't think these people (mrsnacks and jay adams) understand that any information you process during these episodes will be worthless until your brain is back to normal...in other words, Bible verses, praying, reading positive literature, etc. will not fix the problem (though they could help)! It's not an intellectual or spiritual problem...its an organic problem.

BTW- I'm glad you are doing well!

dizzle

January 22nd 2005, 04:37 PM

I don't think people who are against "psychological drugs" have a true understanding of the reality of mental disorders. Back when the chemicals in your brain were outta wack, can you describe what it was like? Maybe to help shed some light to those who disagree with drugs...

Cause I don't think these people (mrsnacks and jay adams) understand that any information you process during these episodes will be worthless until your brain is back to normal...in other words, Bible verses, praying, reading positive literature, etc. will not fix the problem (though they could help)! It's not an intellectual or spiritual problem...its an organic problem.

BTW- I'm glad you are doing well!

You hit the nail on the head. When one is in a clinical depression, as opposed to a situational depression which can turn into a clinical depression, one's brain simply is not working properly. It is like a car in which the break line has been severed - all the safe driving course are in vain, the car needs repair before it's operator can navigate the road.

I have only ever needed psycho-active medications once - the time of my clinical depression. But I would do it again if needed. Things got so bad for me I think because I resisted going to seek medical intervention feeling like if only I could get more spiritual or have more faith etc. The experience has given me great compassion for the suffering of the mentally afflicted - I am so open about it in order to encourage those who may still be ashamed.

Another thing at least to me, it seems that once one has had a true blue episode of clinical depression that one is more predisposed to have it again - it is like words once spoken that can never be taken back. I am cautious to look for the signs and practice the spiritual mind disciplines I was taught in the recovery phase.

One ciriticism of the system I found in my experience - the doctors want to keep you medicated longer, at least for me, than was necessary. I was medicated for about two to three months. At that point, I took control of my treatment adn informed the medical professionals that I was going off - I knew my own mind. They wanted me on for a year. I didn't need that. I only needed some help, and once the help was there, and I was back in control of my own moods and faculties, then the spiritual disciplines could be put into place. I could easily have let the meds do that and cruise for a year, but I didn't.

Now some folks may need a year. Some folks may need more. I knew I didn't.

mrsnacks

February 8th 2005, 09:32 AM

I just got back from a business trip. So i will quickly address soome comments.
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Do you tell a person with heart problems to pray and read their Bible, and if they don't heal, you tell them they don't have enough faith?
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response:
No. Why did you assume that is how one would respond to a person with heart problems ? Sounds like you have an axe to grind.
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If a Christian counselor keeps the Bible as the authority over these teachings, please show me how it is sin.
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response:
Have you read the Bobgans books ? Or even read Jay Adams ? well i guess it depends what circles you are in. You say if the christian keeps the Bible as the authority over these teachings. The point being made in the books I have read is that they don't keep to the Bible. I am not talking out my elbows here.

Even take a quote from a conservative Dr. J. Vernon McGee.
He said "If the present trend continues, Bible teaching will be totally eliminated from Christian radio stations as well as TV and the pulpit. This is not a wild statement made in in an emotional moment of concern . Bible teaching is being moved to the back burner of broadcasting , while so called Christian psychology is put up front as Bible solutions to life's problems. "

In the same article where this quote came from he said "so called Christian psychology is secular psychology clothed in pious platitudes and religious rhetoric. "

Now one may choose to believe him or not. I personally don't agree with everything that is written but it has made me put up yellow flags . My beef is with psychotherapy. As a body of theory may appear coherent , plausible, sensible, and explantory, but it never moves beyond the subjective into the realm of objective truth.
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I guess you didn't realize that the 12 step program is taken directly out of Scripture.
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response:

Really ? I have attended quite a few 12 step programs as an observer. None of them were very biblical to me. The higher power refered to in the meetings can be the God of the Bible or it can be satan if it works. Satan is a higher power . But that step is whatever higher power is defined by you. Jesus was never mentioned in the meetings I attended.

Show me where and can you tell me how the 12 steps came about ?
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you can rip on AA all you want...but that doesn't make it a sin to attend these meetings. Give em a break! They could be at home stuck in the same habits!

It's amazing how quickly a Christian can judge a person who is trying to change...
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You sound like the lady I had mentioned earlier. as soon as any critcism or questions are raised against AA- it is like a sacred cow. Defensives start popping up. I never said it was a sin to attend the meetings. My question is whether they are effective or not . from what I have read - there is evidence that they are not . True change or transformation can only come according to the christian worldview through a relationship with Christ. Without Christ there is no true transformation and defeat of sin. "You must be born from above" is the quote. Not "you must attend these meetings." That is the point Adams makes in his books. I have had relatives and love ones in these programs for years. Yes they wanted to change. But very single one of them saw true change apart from AA. I am not saying no one can change through AA. From their experiences and my observations - it was a personal relationship with Christ which they didn't get in those meetings.

mrsnacks

February 8th 2005, 10:48 AM

I am predisposed to be suspicious somewhat of a blanket condemnation of "secular" psychology. I went through a serious clinical depression and the condemnations that are lobbed even against using anti-depressives when needed were discouraging. However, the Biblical counseling did help once I had control of my brain once again, and it does help with my OCD. Reciting the Lord's Prayer in times of mental stress is very healing to me.
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I am glad you have come out of your depression. My point and suggestion earlier was to recommend you read the Bobgans books. I was surprised that during the time I had talked to them - the christian psychologists refused to debate or even come on the same radio station with them. I think they were afraid. Sort of like Hal Lindsey and La Haye not wanting to appear on a show with DeMar or even you to discuss eschatology.

When i speak of psychology - I am not referring to the entire discipline. I am concerned with the part of psychology which deals with the nature of man and how one should live their lives. And of course how one should change or what brings about true change .

misterguss

February 8th 2005, 01:10 PM

From your comments, it is evident that you see 3 types of counselors:
1. Secular Counselors (guided by theory)
2. Christian Counselors (guided by theory)
3. Nouthetic Counselors (guided by the Bible)

You are overlooking a huge aspect in this entire issue since you enmesh all Christian counselors into one group...

This is a more accurate view of counselors in America:
1. Secular Counselors (guided by theory)
2. "Christian" Counselors (guided by theory)
3. Christian Counselors (guided by the Bible; use appropriate theory when necessary; refer client w/ organic issues to a Christian Psychiatrist for drugs)
4. Nouthetic Counselors (guided by the Bible; all drugs are bad)

I agree with you 100% regarding the idea that these "Christian" counselors (#2 in list above) who are driven by theory and adopt the name "Christian" to sound more religious are out of line...they truly are nothing more than secular counselors.

Once you realize that there is a difference in Christian counselors, you will begin to realize that true Christian counselors are no different than nouthetic counselors except for one issue: drugs. This is the one main difference between counselor #3 and counselor #4 (from the second list above).

I think drugs are necessary regarding issues that are organic since the Bible will do no good in these cases...but the Bible is very necessary regarding most intellectual problems and all spiritual problems.

You don't see the need for drugs...and that's fine...if you have an organic mental problem, do what you think is best for yourself. But don't discredit psychological drugs when used for organic problems because there is significant evidence that they do work...but once the client has their mind back in working order, then it's important to address their intellectual and/or spiritual needs Biblically.

mrsnacks

February 8th 2005, 09:29 PM

Many good points.
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You don't see the need for drugs...and that's fine...if you have an organic mental problem, do what you think is best for yourself. But don't discredit psychological drugs when used for organic problems because there is significant evidence that they do work...but once the client has their mind back in working order, then it's important to address their intellectual and/or spiritual needs B
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What many have failed to see is that a lot of these drugs do more damge than good. I won't bore you with many quotes from even the medical side which are very anti drugs. Many ignore the negative side of the drugs. You say they work. Yes in some cases they may work. But like someone said to me in an earlier post - it depends what circles you are involved in. I just see enough evidence of the fact that drugs do more damage than good overall.

If you want there are a number of web sites and forums I can give you that have many victims and families who back what i say by their own lives or the lives of their children. I am very against pharmeceutical companies. A family member of mine worked in research for the biggest companies for the past 20 years and he has some stories. You think they care about you ? They care about the money and profits. If America is sick they make money. Plus Michael Moore is doing a film on the drug companies. The employees are all instructed not to talk to him or else ..? Sounds like they are hiding something . He can't get anyone to come out . Respond to my earlier
article . It seems many have ignored out of existence.

misterguss

February 9th 2005, 12:05 AM

I would like those links...the more sides of a story one can see will always lead to a more accurate and less tainted perspective!

Pretty Pink VICTORY

February 9th 2005, 11:57 AM

Quote from theseed:

In Acts 17, we know that Paul borrowed from secular culture to preach the Gospel--and left Scripture out. There are other examples as well of Paul quoting secular ideas and works.

Can you please expound on this? I'm unclear of the parallel or point you were trying to make.

Thanks
:baby:C

theseed

February 9th 2005, 09:03 PM

Pretty Pink VICTORY

February 9th 2005, 09:30 PM

Things that secular people think, that are in direct opposition to the gospel and Christianity are most certainly to be rejected. Paul never accepted as good or correct, or presented secular ideas in direct opposition to the gospel in order to preach the gospel. In Acts 17: 16-34, "his spirit was provoked within him when he saw that the city was given over to idols." He preaches to those in Athens, pointing out the idols in their culture and quoting references from some of their poets, and then immediately points out to them: "Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,"

Paul never "accepted" their idolatrous philophies. He basically said that they should repent of their ungodly philosophy. Ungodly philosophy is a cornerstone of most, if not all, psychological teachings because psychology glorifies and places all the emphasis on the "self". Psychology was "born" of God haters, such as Freud, Jung, etc.

misterguss

February 10th 2005, 12:06 AM

Paul never "accepted" their idolatrous philophies. He basically said that they should repent of their ungodly philosophy. Ungodly philosophy is a cornerstone of most, if not all, psychological teachings because psychology glorifies and places all the emphasis on the "self". Psychology was "born" of God haters, such as Freud, Jung, etc.
And Henry Ford probably hated God as well...does that mean you shouldn't drive a Ford? I doubt it...

If a psychological theory does not go against the Bible, then it's perfectly fine to use! Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!

If you think psychology is a sin to use, then you should probably walk to work instead of driving a car made by a heathen....wait, the sidewalks may be cursed as well!!!!!

btw- Humanistic psychology focuses on self....that's just one of many theories my friend...not all are evil.

mrsnacks

February 10th 2005, 03:28 AM

I will put this in layman's terms. Psychology is merely the opinions of men about man. The Bible is not not merely a study of the human race/ man ; it is the truth about about the human race. It is the truth about man. Of all the pschological theorists such as Freud, Jung, Rogers, Ellis, Maslow etc-- Do you know of any major psychological theorist who professes to be a christian ?

To the person who asked about the sites :

Thanks for asking. I am leaving on business tomorrow early and i will have those sites and forums for you when i get back in a week.

Pretty Pink VICTORY

February 10th 2005, 09:13 AM

I would be interested in someone presenting a "psychological theory" that is not ultimately contrary to the word of God.

Pretty Pink VICTORY

February 10th 2005, 09:34 AM

Quote:
And Henry Ford probably hated God as well...does that mean you shouldn't drive a Ford? I doubt it...

The ridiculousness of this logic shouldn't have to even be addressed, but since you posted it...... Driving a car, whether it's a Ford or not, whether it's conceived, designed, manufactured or sold by a "God hater" or not, nowhere comes even CLOSE to being a sin or contrary to God's teachings.

Quote:
If a psychological theory does not go against the Bible, then it's perfectly fine to use! Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!

I would ask for you to provide a "psychological theory" that does not go against the teachings of God.

Quote:
If you think psychology is a sin to use, then you should probably walk to work instead of driving a car made by a heathen....wait, the sidewalks may be cursed as well!!!!!

Again, ridiculous logic. I would propose that you present ridiculous answers because you are incapable of addressing the issue or providing sound facts to support your position.

Pretty Pink VICTORY

February 10th 2005, 09:40 AM

Let me also say, that there is a place for Christians to "counsel" one another, lifting each other up, praying for one another, reminding each other of what God's word says..... etc.

If you read/study God's word, follow and belong to Christ, and genuinely believe, through faith, that He is the answer, you do not need a degree in Humanistic psychology or have to charge someone a fee, to share this gospel of good news that through God's love and help, one can be healed.

misterguss

February 10th 2005, 03:47 PM

Are you saying that every single psychological theory goes against God's Word?

I can probably list hundreds of things different psychological theorys offer to gain better insight into human beings that do not go against Scripture and are not addressed in Scripture....

If you are foolish enough to think that every single thing psychology offers goes against God's Word, then I am wasting my time with a narrow minded person...

Let me ask you this...have you ever been to a medical doctor? According to your logic, you should stay away from the doctor because they were not taught by the Bible...after all, God is the ultimate healer, isn't He? So you should never go to a doctor ever again and just pray that your arm will heal when you break it!

misterguss

February 10th 2005, 03:54 PM

Let me also say, that there is a place for Christians to "counsel" one another, lifting each other up, praying for one another, reminding each other of what God's word says..... etc.Tell that to a person who has a chemical imbalance in their brain and cannot think logically for themselves...would you lift up, pray for, read the Bible to, "counsel" a person with a broken arm so their arm will be healed?

It's evident you don't understand the extent of many mental disorders....it's not a spiritual or intellectual matter....it's organic! Their brain is not working correctly...that is why prayer, reading Scripture, etc. will do as much good to a person with a chemical imbalance in their brain as a person with a broken arm.

Pretty Pink VICTORY

February 10th 2005, 03:56 PM

First of all, you are not answering questions and are continuing to delay with illogical statements.

Are you saying that every single psychological theory goes against God's Word?
Nope, never said that.

I can probably list hundreds of things different psychological theorys offer to gain better insight into human beings that do not go against Scripture and are not addressed in Scripture....
Thank you! That would be much appreciated since that's what I asked for in the first place. And I don't require you to list hundreds, just a few please.

If you are foolish enough to think that every single thing psychology offers goes against God's Word, then I am wasting my time with a narrow minded person...
Well, since I did in no way say that EVERY SINGLE THING goes against God's Word, then I guess you're not wasting your time. Unless you can't answer the question, in which case you're wasting mine.

Let me ask you this...have you ever been to a medical doctor?
Psychologists are not medical Drs. Big difference.

According to your logic, you should stay away from the doctor because they were not taught by the Bible...after all, God is the ultimate healer, isn't He? So you should never go to a doctor ever again and just pray that your arm will heal when you break it!
This statement alone shows that you may have read what I said, but understood nothing of what you read.

A-Man

February 10th 2005, 04:09 PM

:popcorn:

Pretty Pink VICTORY

February 10th 2005, 04:10 PM

You can take your popcorn elsewhere Aman, sorry, show's over. I will post no more on this topic.

misterguss

February 10th 2005, 06:15 PM

From what I read, it seemed like you did think every psychological theory went against the Bible...
I would be interested in someone presenting a "psychological theory" that is not ultimately contrary to the word of God.

I would ask for you to provide a "psychological theory" that does not go against the teachings of God.I'm sorry if I misread your comments....it just seemed like you were saying everything psychology offers goes against the Bible.
Thank you! That would be much appreciated since that's what I asked for in the first place. And I don't require you to list hundreds, just a few please.
REBT (Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy) was created by Albert Ellis. One thing I learned from him is that "nobody or nothing outside of ourselves can cause us to feel anything. There is no "bad-temper button" on our foreheads that anyone else can push to make us angry on demand....it is our choice to feel angry, anxious, or frustrated."
"The primary goal of cognitive therapies is to help clients identify their patterns of irrational thinking."

Milton Erickson was a funny dude..."he was fond of ordering (for clients who wanted to loose weight) them to gain 5 pounds before the next session. If they complied, they demonstrated the potential control they had over their weight- the ability to increase (and, by implicaiton, decrease) it at will."

"Gestalt therapy focuses on the what and how of behavior and on the central role of "unfinished business" from the past that interferes with effective functioning in the present."

Though much of psychoanalysis is wacked (Freud), it has some good things. Defense Mechanisms is a great concept that helps in understanding humans...it basically teaches that once a person gets defensive about something, they tend to distort, hide, or deny reality...they usually think by emotion rather than logic.

Though some theory goes against the Bible, the rest is very helpful in gaining a better insight into humans beings. Do you see anything here that directly goes against the Bible?

Without psychology, we would not be able to treat mental disorders like we are able to today!
Psychologists are not medical Drs. Big difference.I never said psychologist are MD's....but psychiatrists are!