Words in Hebrew

[stevencarrwork]

Am I correct in thinking that numbers in the Hebrew text are always spelled out?

For example, would '14' be written as the Hebrew equivalent of the symbols for '1' and '4' or as the Hebrew word for 'fourteen'?

[GrayPilgrim]

Today @ 07:18 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=95953#post95953)
stevencarrwork:

Am I correct in thinking that numbers in the Hebrew text are always spelled out?

For example, would '14' be written as the Hebrew equivalent of the symbols for '1' and '4' or as the Hebrew word for 'fourteen'?


Yes the uses an alphanumeric system--hence 14 would be יד Where י = 10 and ד = 4

Names also have numerical equiavelnts hence דוד (David) would equal 14 [hence the ordering of the genaology of Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew]
so ו=6 thus we get 4+6+4=14.

[stevencarrwork]

Today @ 01:46 PM

GrayPilgrim:




Yes the uses an alphanumeric system--hence 14 would be יד Where י = 10 and ד = 4

Names also have numerical equiavelnts hence דוד (David) would equal 14 [hence the ordering of the genaology of Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew]
so ו=6 thus we get 4+6+4=14.


When I look at the Blue Letter Bible for Joshua 15:36 '14' is 'arba asar' ie the word for 'four' and then the word for 'teen'.

Why do Christian Bible publishers change what was written (assuming, as I do, that GrayPilgrim is correct to say that numbers in the Hebrew text were written in the symbol form, rather than being spelled out)?

[GrayPilgrim]

I'm sorry, I misunderstood you original post and did not see the trap you were setting. I was not explicit. It can also be written out. It is similar to how we do things some times you use the alphanumerics some times you write it out. Nothing is changed.

For example it is generally considered better in American English idiom to say:

I saw two boys (not 2 boys).

I saw 15 girls (not fifteen girls)

Three years ago I took Acts, Pauline and General episltes with Dr. Carson (not 3 years ago).

In October of 2000 (not of two thousand).

Hebrew has its own conventions but it has the ability to do that as well.

GP

[stevencarrwork]

Today @ 03:32 PM

GrayPilgrim:

I'm sorry, I misunderstood you original post and did not see the trap you were setting. I was not explicit. It can also be written out. It is similar to how we do things some times you use the alphanumerics some times you write it out. Nothing is changed.

Hebrew has its own conventions but it has the ability to do that as well.




Here is my original post.

'Am I correct in thinking that numbers in the Hebrew text are always spelled out?

For example, would '14' be written as the Hebrew equivalent of the symbols for '1' and '4' or as the Hebrew word for 'fourteen'?'

What trap would that be? Seemed a pretty straightforward and clear question to me.

You say that it can be written out as full words. Is it always written out as full words?

[Sher]

GP ... in anticipation of SCW's next question:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3640&perpage=16&pagenumber=5

What of the Greek? Wasn't it common practice for the Greek to write in alpha-symbols instead of writing the words for the numbers out?

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=90268#post90268

Wouldn't this common practice have carried over to the NT? With future scribes using the written out words for the symbols as was common in later times?

So...

If I said, "This is [the] third volume."

That could be "re-scribed" from my original letter that said, "This is volume 3."

Or if I said, "This is [the] third hour."

That could be "re-scribed" from my original letter that said, "This is hour 3."

Steve is being busted for proving his assertions in another thread (see above) and is looking for "support" now because he has been unable to prove himself correct.

[stevencarrwork]

Today @ 09:00 PM
SherBear:

GP ... in anticipation of SCW's next question:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3640&perpage=16&pagenumber=5

What of the Greek? Wasn't it common practice for the Greek to write in alpha-symbols instead of writing the words for the numbers out?

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=90268#post90268

Wouldn't this common practice have carried over to the NT? With future scribes using the written out words for the symbols as was common in later times?



Sherbear appears convinced to the point of mania that people systematically altered what the NT writers wrote, although she can come up with no manuscripts where symbols were used instead of the words for 'third' , 'sixth' etc (apart from one manuscript from AD 850)

I appeal to her to once again look at the Greek text prepared by the world's leading scholars, such as the Alands and Bruce Metzger and they give no variants in John 19:14.

Why can she not bring herself to believe her own sources (who came up with no examples) and the world's leading experts on the Greek text of the New Testament and drop this claim that the New Testament text was systematically changed just a hundred years or so from the time of first writing?

And , BTW, she never answered the question of whether the Hebrew manuscripts have the number spelled out as words, (as Christian Bible makers appear to claim).

[GrayPilgrim]

Here are the 740 verses that spell out the word "one" אחד:

Gen. 1:5, 9; 2:11, 21, 24; 3:22; 4:19; 8:5, 13; 10:25; 11:1, 6; 19:9; 21:15; 22:2; 26:10; 27:38, 44f; 29:20; 32:9, 23; 33:13; 34:16, 22; 37:9, 20; 40:5; 41:5, 11, 22, 25f; 42:11, 13, 16, 19, 27, 32f; 44:28; 48:22; 49:16; Exod. 1:15; 8:27; 9:6f; 10:19; 11:1; 12:18, 46, 49; 14:28; 16:22, 33; 17:12; 18:3f; 23:29; 24:3; 25:12, 19, 32f, 36; 26:2, 4ff, 8, 10f, 16f, 19, 21, 24ff; 27:9; 28:10, 17; 29:1, 3, 15, 23, 39f; 30:10; 33:5; 36:9ff, 15, 18, 21f, 24, 26, 29ff; 37:3, 8, 18f, 22; 39:10; 40:2, 17; Lev. 4:2, 13, 22, 27; 5:4f, 7, 13, 17, 22, 26; 7:7, 14; 8:26; 12:8; 13:2; 14:5, 10, 12, 21f, 30f, 50; 15:15, 30; 16:5, 8, 34; 22:28; 23:18f, 24; 24:5, 22; 25:48; 26:26; Num. 1:1, 18, 41, 44; 2:16, 28; 6:11, 14, 19; 7:3, 11, 13ff, 19ff, 25ff, 31ff, 37ff, 43ff, 49ff, 55ff, 61ff, 67ff, 73ff, 79ff, 85; 8:12; 9:14; 10:4; 11:19, 26; 13:2, 23; 14:15; 15:5, 11f, 15f, 24, 27, 29; 16:15, 22; 17:18, 21; 28:4, 7, 11ff, 15, 19, 21f, 27ff; 29:1f, 4f, 8ff, 14ff, 19, 22, 25, 28, 31, 34, 36, 38; 31:28, 30, 34, 39, 47; 33:38; 34:18; 35:30; 36:3, 8; Deut. 1:2f, 23; 4:42; 6:4; 12:14; 13:13; 15:7; 16:5; 17:2, 6; 18:6; 19:5, 11, 15; 21:15; 23:17; 24:5; 25:5, 11; 28:7, 25, 55; 32:30; Jos. 3:12f, 16; 4:2, 4f; 6:3, 11, 14; 7:21; 9:2; 10:2, 42; 12:9ff; 15:51; 17:14, 17; 20:4; 22:14, 20; 23:10, 14; Jdg. 4:16; 6:16; 8:18; 9:2, 5, 18, 37, 53; 13:2; 15:4; 16:7, 11, 28f; 17:5, 11; 18:19; 19:13; 20:1, 8, 11, 31; 21:3, 6, 8; Ruth 1:4; 2:13; 1 Sam. 1:1f, 5, 24; 2:34, 36; 6:4, 7, 12, 17; 7:9, 12; 9:3, 15; 10:3; 11:7; 13:17f; 14:4f, 40; 16:18, 20; 17:36; 22:20; 24:15; 25:14; 26:8, 15, 20, 22; 27:1, 5; 2 Sam. 1:15; 2:1, 18, 21, 25; 3:13; 4:2; 6:19f; 7:7, 23; 9:11; 12:1, 3; 13:13, 30; 14:6, 27; 15:2; 17:9, 12, 22; 18:10f; 19:15; 23:8; 24:12; 1 Ki. 2:16, 20; 3:17, 25; 4:7, 19; 5:2; 6:24ff, 34, 38; 7:15ff, 27, 30, 32, 34, 37f, 42, 44; 8:56; 10:14, 16f, 22; 11:13, 32, 36; 12:29f; 13:11; 14:21; 15:10; 16:23; 18:6, 23, 25; 19:2, 4f; 20:13, 29, 35; 22:8f, 13; 2 Ki. 2:16; 3:11; 4:1, 22, 35, 39; 6:2f, 5, 10, 12; 7:8, 13; 8:6, 26; 9:1, 29; 12:10; 14:23; 15:20; 17:27f; 18:24; 22:1; 23:36; 24:18; 25:16f, 19; 1 Chr. 1:19; 11:11; 12:15, 39; 17:6, 21; 21:10; 23:11; 24:6, 17; 25:28; 27:1; 29:1; 2 Chr. 3:11f, 17; 4:13, 15; 5:13; 9:13, 15f, 21; 12:13; 16:13; 18:7f, 12; 22:2; 24:8; 28:6; 29:17; 30:12; 32:12; 34:1; 36:5, 11, 22; Ezr. 1:1; 2:26, 64; 3:1, 6, 9; 6:20; 7:9; 10:13, 16f; Neh. 1:2; 4:11; 5:18; 7:30, 37, 66; 8:1f; 11:1; Est. 3:8, 13; 4:11; 7:9; 8:12; Job 2:10; 9:3, 22; 14:4; 23:13; 31:15; 33:14, 23; 40:5; 41:8; 42:11, 14; Ps. 14:3; 27:4; 34:21; 53:4; 62:12; 82:7; 89:36; 106:11; 139:16; Prov. 1:14; 28:18; Eccl. 2:14; 3:19f; 4:8ff; 6:6; 7:27f; 9:2f, 18; 11:6; 12:11; Cant. 4:9; 6:9; Isa. 4:1; 5:10; 6:2, 6; 9:13; 10:17; 19:18; 23:15; 27:12; 30:17; 34:16; 36:9; 47:9; 51:2; 65:25; 66:8, 17; Jer. 3:14; 10:8; 24:2; 32:39; 35:2; 51:60; 52:1, 20ff, 25; Ezek. 1:6, 15f; 4:9; 7:5; 8:7f; 9:2; 10:9f, 14, 21; 11:19; 16:5; 17:7; 18:10; 19:3, 5; 21:21, 24; 23:2, 13; 26:1; 29:17; 30:20; 31:1; 32:1; 33:2, 24, 30; 34:23; 37:16f, 19, 22, 24; 40:5ff, 10, 12, 26, 42ff, 49; 41:11, 24; 42:4; 43:13f; 45:7, 11, 15, 18; 46:17, 22; 48:1ff, 23ff, 31ff; Dan. 1:21; 8:3, 9, 13; 9:1f, 27; 10:5, 13, 21; 11:1, 20, 27; 12:5; Hos. 2:2; Amos 4:7f; 6:9; Obad. 1:11; Jon. 3:4; Zeph. 3:9; Hag. 1:1; 2:1, 6; Zech. 3:9; 4:3; 5:7; 8:21; 11:7f; 14:7, 9; Mal. 2:10, 15


I hope that answers the question

[stevencarrwork]

Yesterday @ 11:26 PM
GrayPilgrim:

Here are the 740 verses that spell out the word "one" אחד:


I hope that answers the question

Thanks.

That is 'echad' if I understand correctly. (My knowledge of Hebrew is very, very limited. Think 'very' here)

So if in places like Joshua 15:36, the word 'fourteen' was written as 'arba asar' ie 'four' followed by 'teen', then the fact that the Hebrew symbol for '4' is similar to the Hebrew symbol for '5' would not lead to a copying error, would you think?

After all, it is hard to mistake one symbol for another if neither was in the text to start off with, wouldn't you agree?

One is 'arba asar', and the other is 'chamesh asar', which look very different.

[GrayPilgrim]

Today @ 08:35 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=96772#post96772)
stevencarrwork:



Thanks.

That is 'echad' if I understand correctly. (My knowledge of Hebrew is very, very limited. Think 'very' here)

So if in places like Joshua 15:36, the word 'fourteen' was written as 'arba asar' ie 'four' followed by 'teen', then the fact that the Hebrew symbol for '4' is similar to the Hebrew symbol for '5' would not lead to a copying error, would you think?

After all, it is hard to mistake one symbol for another if neither was in the text to start off with, wouldn't you agree?

One is 'arba asar', and the other is 'chamesh asar', which look very different.

You are correct. However, there is some debate on how the original scribes would have been recorded. Some scholars believe that there was a hashmark system which would have lead to serious problems in transmission. Numbers are by and large the most textually suspect item in textual transmission.

GP

[stevencarrwork]

Today @ 01:44 AM
GrayPilgrim:



You are correct. However, there is some debate on how the original scribes would have been recorded. Some scholars believe that there was a hashmark system which would have lead to serious problems in transmission. Numbers are by and large the most textually suspect item in textual transmission.



Pardon my ignorance , but what is a hashmark system?

[GrayPilgrim]

You know when You make four vertical lines and then and horizontal slash to count to five. That is not exactly what some scholars say they uesed but it gets the idea across.

[AVmetro]

05-14-2003 @ 11:26 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=96678#post96678)
GrayPilgrim:

Here are the 740 verses that spell out the word "one" אחד:

Gen. 1:5, 9; 2:11, 21, 24; 3:22; 4:19; 8:5, 13; 10:25; 11:1, 6; 19:9; 21:15; 22:2; 26:10; 27:38, 44f; 29:20; 32:9, 23; 33:13; 34:16, 22; 37:9, 20; 40:5; 41:5, 11, 22, 25f; 42:11, 13, 16, 19, 27, 32f; 44:28; 48:22; 49:16; Exod. 1:15; 8:27; 9:6f; 10:19; 11:1; 12:18, 46, 49; 14:28; 16:22, 33; 17:12; 18:3f; 23:29; 24:3; 25:12, 19, 32f, 36; 26:2, 4ff, 8, 10f, 16f, 19, 21, 24ff; 27:9; 28:10, 17; 29:1, 3, 15, 23, 39f; 30:10; 33:5; 36:9ff, 15, 18, 21f, 24, 26, 29ff; 37:3, 8, 18f, 22; 39:10; 40:2, 17; Lev. 4:2, 13, 22, 27; 5:4f, 7, 13, 17, 22, 26; 7:7, 14; 8:26; 12:8; 13:2; 14:5, 10, 12, 21f, 30f, 50; 15:15, 30; 16:5, 8, 34; 22:28; 23:18f, 24; 24:5, 22; 25:48; 26:26; Num. 1:1, 18, 41, 44; 2:16, 28; 6:11, 14, 19; 7:3, 11, 13ff, 19ff, 25ff, 31ff, 37ff, 43ff, 49ff, 55ff, 61ff, 67ff, 73ff, 79ff, 85; 8:12; 9:14; 10:4; 11:19, 26; 13:2, 23; 14:15; 15:5, 11f, 15f, 24, 27, 29; 16:15, 22; 17:18, 21; 28:4, 7, 11ff, 15, 19, 21f, 27ff; 29:1f, 4f, 8ff, 14ff, 19, 22, 25, 28, 31, 34, 36, 38; 31:28, 30, 34, 39, 47; 33:38; 34:18; 35:30; 36:3, 8; Deut. 1:2f, 23; 4:42; 6:4; 12:14; 13:13; 15:7; 16:5; 17:2, 6; 18:6; 19:5, 11, 15; 21:15; 23:17; 24:5; 25:5, 11; 28:7, 25, 55; 32:30; Jos. 3:12f, 16; 4:2, 4f; 6:3, 11, 14; 7:21; 9:2; 10:2, 42; 12:9ff; 15:51; 17:14, 17; 20:4; 22:14, 20; 23:10, 14; Jdg. 4:16; 6:16; 8:18; 9:2, 5, 18, 37, 53; 13:2; 15:4; 16:7, 11, 28f; 17:5, 11; 18:19; 19:13; 20:1, 8, 11, 31; 21:3, 6, 8; Ruth 1:4; 2:13; 1 Sam. 1:1f, 5, 24; 2:34, 36; 6:4, 7, 12, 17; 7:9, 12; 9:3, 15; 10:3; 11:7; 13:17f; 14:4f, 40; 16:18, 20; 17:36; 22:20; 24:15; 25:14; 26:8, 15, 20, 22; 27:1, 5; 2 Sam. 1:15; 2:1, 18, 21, 25; 3:13; 4:2; 6:19f; 7:7, 23; 9:11; 12:1, 3; 13:13, 30; 14:6, 27; 15:2; 17:9, 12, 22; 18:10f; 19:15; 23:8; 24:12; 1 Ki. 2:16, 20; 3:17, 25; 4:7, 19; 5:2; 6:24ff, 34, 38; 7:15ff, 27, 30, 32, 34, 37f, 42, 44; 8:56; 10:14, 16f, 22; 11:13, 32, 36; 12:29f; 13:11; 14:21; 15:10; 16:23; 18:6, 23, 25; 19:2, 4f; 20:13, 29, 35; 22:8f, 13; 2 Ki. 2:16; 3:11; 4:1, 22, 35, 39; 6:2f, 5, 10, 12; 7:8, 13; 8:6, 26; 9:1, 29; 12:10; 14:23; 15:20; 17:27f; 18:24; 22:1; 23:36; 24:18; 25:16f, 19; 1 Chr. 1:19; 11:11; 12:15, 39; 17:6, 21; 21:10; 23:11; 24:6, 17; 25:28; 27:1; 29:1; 2 Chr. 3:11f, 17; 4:13, 15; 5:13; 9:13, 15f, 21; 12:13; 16:13; 18:7f, 12; 22:2; 24:8; 28:6; 29:17; 30:12; 32:12; 34:1; 36:5, 11, 22; Ezr. 1:1; 2:26, 64; 3:1, 6, 9; 6:20; 7:9; 10:13, 16f; Neh. 1:2; 4:11; 5:18; 7:30, 37, 66; 8:1f; 11:1; Est. 3:8, 13; 4:11; 7:9; 8:12; Job 2:10; 9:3, 22; 14:4; 23:13; 31:15; 33:14, 23; 40:5; 41:8; 42:11, 14; Ps. 14:3; 27:4; 34:21; 53:4; 62:12; 82:7; 89:36; 106:11; 139:16; Prov. 1:14; 28:18; Eccl. 2:14; 3:19f; 4:8ff; 6:6; 7:27f; 9:2f, 18; 11:6; 12:11; Cant. 4:9; 6:9; Isa. 4:1; 5:10; 6:2, 6; 9:13; 10:17; 19:18; 23:15; 27:12; 30:17; 34:16; 36:9; 47:9; 51:2; 65:25; 66:8, 17; Jer. 3:14; 10:8; 24:2; 32:39; 35:2; 51:60; 52:1, 20ff, 25; Ezek. 1:6, 15f; 4:9; 7:5; 8:7f; 9:2; 10:9f, 14, 21; 11:19; 16:5; 17:7; 18:10; 19:3, 5; 21:21, 24; 23:2, 13; 26:1; 29:17; 30:20; 31:1; 32:1; 33:2, 24, 30; 34:23; 37:16f, 19, 22, 24; 40:5ff, 10, 12, 26, 42ff, 49; 41:11, 24; 42:4; 43:13f; 45:7, 11, 15, 18; 46:17, 22; 48:1ff, 23ff, 31ff; Dan. 1:21; 8:3, 9, 13; 9:1f, 27; 10:5, 13, 21; 11:1, 20, 27; 12:5; Hos. 2:2; Amos 4:7f; 6:9; Obad. 1:11; Jon. 3:4; Zeph. 3:9; Hag. 1:1; 2:1, 6; Zech. 3:9; 4:3; 5:7; 8:21; 11:7f; 14:7, 9; Mal. 2:10, 15


I hope that answers the question

What did you use to get those results?

[GrayPilgrim]

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