What do you all think about John the Baptist's cave?

[salvationfound]

Hey guys I'm just curious what people think of this story about John the
Baptist's cave.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5724143/

Do you guys think this finding is real? Personally I don't see why not but I
also already believed anyway. What about the rest of you?

[Sacrificial Ram]

Hey guys I'm just curious what people think of this story about John the
Baptist's cave.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5724143/

Do you guys think this finding is real? Personally I don't see why not but I
also already believed anyway. What about the rest of you?
Well, it was a first century site for baptism. However, it also had
by sixth-century cult activity by Byzantine monks. That would explain the
crosses on the cave (The first century was much too early to use the cross for a symbol of chrisianity. While possilble, I don't think it would be able to be positviely linked with John the Baptist, although the ceremonial aspects of what can be found there would almost certainly similar if not the same of the baptisms performed by John.

[technomage]

The finding is definitely real. The problem is in the interpretation.

This is a Exile-era or post-Return-era man-made cave, with a mikvot (ritual immersion bath) and a few other ritual artifacts. The carvings are Byzantine Era (4th or 5th century CE), and are definitely connected with post-Nicene reverence of a "traditional" site for John, but we all know that "traditional sites" are not necessarily everything they're cracked up to be (witness the furor over the "Garden Tomb," which was later discovered to be about 100 years too early).

I think it's definitely an interesting site, and I'd love to find out more about it, but I don't think I'd get too hyped about it being the actual "John the Baptist" cave.

[Minnesota]

Right up there with the Shroud of Turin, remnants of Noah's Ark, and the Madonna Grilled Cheese Sandwich.

[learning]

Well, it was a first century site for baptism. However, it also had
by sixth-century cult activity by Byzantine monks. That would explain the
crosses on the cave (The first century was much too early to use the cross for a symbol of chrisianity. While possilble, I don't think it would be able to be positviely linked with John the Baptist, although the ceremonial aspects of what can be found there would almost certainly similar if not the same of the baptisms performed by John.

You say that the first century was too early to use the cross for a symbol of christianity? Well, I saw in a National Geographic magazine in a picture of Pompeii, (that was destroyed by that volcano) that a wooden cross was on the wall above a table in a home, so I don't think it was too early for that. I believe Pompey was in the first century, right? that volcano? (Found it was covered by the volcano in 79 A.D.)

[Sacrificial Ram]

You say that the first century was too early to use the cross for a symbol of christianity? Well, I saw in a National Geographic magazine in a picture of Pompey, (that was destroyed by that volcanoe) that a wooden cross was on the wall above a table in a home, so I don't think it was too early for that. I believe Pompey was in the first century, right? that volcanoe?
Except one of the things was that another 'cross' item that was found at herculum (which was destroyed at the same time), had an inscription on an amulet of a cruxifiction that showed it was the cruxifiction of baccus.

[learning]

But this was a plain cross, a plain wooden cross.

[Sacrificial Ram]

But this was a plain cross, a plain wooden cross.
Do you have a link? Can it be demonstrated that it was not a symbol of baccus, which was very common in that time period?? Is your memory working right??

Was this cross actually found there, and what conditon was it in? was it talked about in the article??

[learning]

Sorry, I looked for a link with National Geographic, (couldn't find it) but I did see it in a magazine to do with Pompeii. I still have that magazine, (it was an old one we picked up) and one of my kids was doing a project for school to do with Pompeii and so I do remember it. It was in one of the pooer homes, a simple table with a plain cross above it on the wall, and they said in the magazine that it might be one of the first symbols of Christianity. I do have a link to do with the British Coptic church that mentions someone 'knowing about the cross of Pompeii' and I'll give you that link as soon as I find it again. :)

Here's the link
www.uk-christian.net/newboc/103g.shtml

Second paragraph mentions the 'cross of Pompeii', and other ones too.

[Sheshonq]

Hey guys I'm just curious what people think of this story about John the
Baptist's cave.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5724143/

Do you guys think this finding is real? Personally I don't see why not but I
also already believed anyway. What about the rest of you? This find just smells too suspicious; the only physical evidence suggests that it's far older than John the Baptist. For example:



It was carved by the Israelites in the Iron Age, sometime between 800 B.C. and 500 B.C, the scientists said. It apparently was used from the start as a ritual immersion pool, preceding the Jewish tradition of the ritual bath.
So any indentations in the stone, or other features, could easily date from 500BC, and not from John the Baptist's time.

About the only thing this site has going for it is physical proximity to a village that he was (supposedly) born in. But for evidence of his birth town, there is no scripture, only church tradition.

[ArchaicGuy]

The discovery of the cave is interesting that it is close to the birthplace of John the Baptist.According to one of the participants in the cave's recent excavation Dr. James Tabor (UNC Charlotte Dept of Religious Studies) said that it was dated after the lifetime of John the Baptist.Dr. Tabor has done some excavations with archaeologist Vendyl Jones.

[Sacrificial Ram]

The discovery of the cave is interesting that it is close to the birthplace of John the Baptist.According to one of the participants in the cave's recent excavation Dr. James Tabor (UNC Charlotte Dept of Religious Studies) said that it was dated after the lifetime of John the Baptist.Dr. Tabor has done some excavations with archaeologist Vendyl Jones.
Doing an excavation with Vendyl is NOT a good recommendation. Vendyl
Jones is a flake.

Dr Tabor at least has a lot more acaedemic credentials that Vendyl ever did.

[ArchaicGuy]

Sacrificial Ram: Dr.James Tabor supports Vendyl Jones excavations.I guess in your obviously bias judgement Dr.James Tabor would be considered a flake for his support of Vendyl's work.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Sacrificial Ram: Dr.James Tabor supports Vendyl Jones excavations.I guess in your obviously bias judgement Dr.James Tabor would be considered a flake for his support of Vendyl's work.
Well, if he supports Vendyl Jones, then yes... he is a flake.

If he using Vendyl Jones as a way to do digs, yet does not support the concepts that Vendyl Jones is putting forth, then he might not be.

If he supports Vendyl Jones in the translation of the copper scroll, and the
search for the Ark of the convenent, the ashes of the Red Heiffer, the claim of getting annointing oil from the second temple, the claim of finding qetoret as a temple artifact in 1992, then he too is a flake.

What is Dr Tabors opinion on the copper scroll translation by Vendyl, the ashes of the Red Heiffer, the oil, and the qetoret claim?

[ArchaicGuy]

Sacrificial Ram: Ask Dr. Tabor his opinions of Vendyl's work. I know Dr. Tabor's opinions about Vendyl from the last B'Nai No'ach Convention he attended.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Sacrificial Ram: Ask Dr. Tabor his opinions of Vendyl's work. I know Dr. Tabor's opinions about Vendyl from the last B'Nai No'ach Convention he attended.
AH.. he is a B'Nai No'ach??

OK, that tells me where he is coming from.

[ArchaicGuy]

Sacrificial Ram: By your answer I know you are an atheistic anti-semite! Your hatred against gentiles following the seven universal laws in The Holy Torah that is the foundation of today's western civilization!

[Sacrificial Ram]

Sacrificial Ram: By your answer I know you are an atheistic anti-semite! Your hatred against gentiles following the seven universal laws in The Holy Torah that is the foundation of today's western civilization!
Excuse me.. arent' you being rather judgemental there. Yes, I am atheistic. BUt no, I am not an anti-semite.

They are welcome to believe what ever they want. However, I find that they are flakes when it comes to taking the data, and analysing it to 'prove' a point. They are not archelogists.. they are thelogians that are making archelogical claims to try to 'prove' their faith. They are not looking to find
out what the evidence is.. they are selectively interpreting the evidence to booster their preconceptions. Dr Tabor has better academic credentials
than Vendyl (by a factor of at least 10 to 1), particularly when it comes to
knowlege of the language of the time period. That does not seem to make him qualified to be an archeologist.

[SpinyNorman]

Right up there with the Shroud of Turin, remnants of Noah's Ark, and the Madonna Grilled Cheese Sandwich.
Pretty strong statement for one reading of an article. WHat makes you so sure, just curious.

Personally, I don't know what to think about it, as this is the only article I have read about it so far. It certainly seems plausable, which is pretty cool. I'll try to find more info.

Cheers!:lol::lol:

[learning]

AH.. he is a B'Nai No'ach??

OK, that tells me where he is coming from.

OK, I hope you don't mind, but what is a 'B'Nai No'ach'?

What does that tell you about where someone is coming from?

[ArchaicGuy]

Learning: B'Nai No'ach simply means 'Children of Noah'. Jews and Non-Jews that follow the seven universal laws or as it is also referred to as the Noahide Covenant or the Rainbow Covenant.The Covenant G-D made with Noah after the great Deluge symbolized by the Rainbow.The seven laws consist of 1. Against Blasphemy 2.Against Theft 3. Against Sexual Immorality 4. Against eating the limb of a Living Animal(Cruelty) 5. Against Murder 6. Against Idolatry 7. To establish Courts of Justice. The preamble of the US Constitution contains the words establish Justice. Do a google search for Dr. James Tabor and Vendyl Jones.They can provide more info than I can do so.Some good news I have a book about the excavations at Pompeii and Herculeanum about the Cross you mentioned in an earlier post.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Learning: B'Nai No'ach simply means 'Children of Noah'. Jews and Non-Jews that follow the seven universal laws or as it is also referred to as the Noahide Covenant or the Rainbow Covenant.The Covenant G-D made with Noah after the great Deluge symbolized by the Rainbow.The seven laws consist of 1. Against Blasphemy 2.Against Theft 3. Against Sexual Immorality 4. Against eating the limb of a Living Animal(Cruelty) 5. Against Murder 6. Against Idolatry 7. To establish Courts of Justice. The preamble of the US Constitution contains the words establish Justice. Do a google search for Dr. James Tabor and Vendyl Jones.They can provide more info than I can do so.Some good news I have a book about the excavations at Pompeii and Herculeanum about the Cross you mentioned in an earlier post.
And the book is???

[ArchaicGuy]

Learning: The name of the book is: Herculaneum Italy's Buried Treasure by Joseph Jay Deiss (1966)

[Sacrificial Ram]

Learning: The name of the book is: Herculaneum Italy's Buried Treasure by Joseph Jay Deiss (1966)
I will have to look at it, but that seems to be a children's book.

However, when it comes to Christianty and the symbol of the cruxific, I found this at http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_symb.htm



The use of the cross as a symbol was condemned by at least one church father of the 3rd century CE because of its Pagan origins. The first appearance of a cross in Christian art is on a Vatican sarcophagus from the mid-5th Century. 11 It was a Greek cross with equal-length arms. Jesus' body was not shown. The first crucifixion scenes didn't appear in Christian art until the 7th century CE. The original cross symbol was in the form of a Tau Cross. It was so named because it looked like the letter "tau", or our letter "T". One author speculates that the Church may have copied the symbol from the Pagan Druids who made crosses in this form to represent the Thau (god). 7 They joined two limbs from oak trees. The Tau cross became associated with St. Philip who was allegedly crucified on such a cross in Phrygia. May Day, a major Druidic seasonal day of celebration, became St. Philip's Day. Later in Christian history, the Tau Cross became the Roman Cross that we are familiar with today.

It would seem unlikely to the extreme that a cross buried in Pompeii would have been the 'Christian' cross, considering this information. Baccus also used the symbol of
the cross for cruxifiction, as this picture of an 3rd century amulet shows

[learning]

Thanks for that info. I do recall hearing something about that now, somewhere, the Noahic covenant.

SacRam, I saw the picture of the cross on the wall. (from National Geographic) A typical t type of cross, narrow and simple wood.
But you can try to put the cross into past pagan things, but you're missing the symbolism of the cross. It represents death, for which Christ is conqueror!

[rogero]

...The Covenant G-D made with Noah after the great Deluge symbolized by the Rainbow...
What's with the "G-D" stuff? Is there some reason you don't spell out "God"?

Just curious. Thanks!

[Jack777]

G-d makes sure God's name is not defamed, it is out of respect for Him that Jews do that.

Crosses, existed long before Christianity.

The mark of Ezekiel is thought to be the tav and for good reason. The cross is the oldest symbol, competes favorably with the bull horns for instance.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Thanks for that info. I do recall hearing something about that now, somewhere, the Noahic covenant.

SacRam, I saw the picture of the cross on the wall. (from National Geographic) A typical t type of cross, narrow and simple wood.
But you can try to put the cross into past pagan things, but you're missing the symbolism of the cross. It represents death, for which Christ is conqueror!
Yes, you did. However, some points.

The cross would have had to been placed ON the wall in modern times. The lenth of 2000 years would have caused it to fall off if it was originally there.

The pyroplasmic flow from the volcano was at a very intense heat. While it would have been buried fairly quickly to preserve it, a piece of wood from that time frame would have been charred drastically.

You said you saw it in the background, yet you don't mention it being discussed on the program.

Itally is a very Catholic country. Since the condition of the cross is not what we would expect if it got hit with a pyroplasmic flow, nor was it mentioned, it would be reasonable to assume someone put it there as
a symbol of their faith, rather than having it a historical relic.

Also, the symbol of the cross as a religous symbol predates Christanity.It the british museaum , there is a statue of Samsi-Vul, son of Shalmaneser with a cross around his neck It was also used by the Greek Goddess Diane.

How the Christians use it as a symbol is different than how the different ancient pagans used it. Some of the pagan symbols used it in the phallic sense, and it symbolised life and fertility.

Now, if you have a link to a peer reviewed archelogical journal on the pompeii cross, I would be happy to reconsider my judgement. However,
the sources I have looked at specifically say that the cross was not
used as a Christian symbol till the 4th century. If you have another source
for me to look it, it would be interesting.

[ArchaicGuy]

Learning: The National Geographic magazine is the May 1984 issue. The article is titled 'The Dead Do Tell Tales at Vesuvius'. The picture of the cross is only the imprint of a T shaped Cross on the wall.There is no wooden cross(original or replica) pictured. I don't believe it is the imprint of a shelf because of the placing of the holes where the nails to support it on the wall are placed near the top and at the bottom of the imprint. The holes would be more consistent with hanging a cross on the wall. The House where the Cross imprint was discovered is at Herculaneum, not at Pompeii.

[rogero]

G-d makes sure God's name is not defamed, it is out of respect for Him that Jews do that.

...
But "God" is a fairly generic name for a monotheistic deity. Is this "G-d" business a custom of orthodox Judaism? Isn't "God" generally a rendering of "Elohim"? I thought they only did this with YHWH (or whatever the equivalent of the Tetragrammaton is in the Hebrew alphabet)?

I thought I read somewhere that the reason the book of Esther (from Hebrew text) does not mention God is out of respect for the name, and that the name might be defamed by gentile mockers. It's interesting that God is mentioned in the extra Septuaguint chapters in Esther (e.g., as included in the RC NAB.)

I'd like to see ArchaicGuy's comments, since he seems to be a follower of this B'Nai No'ach religion.

[ArchaicGuy]

Rogero: I don't follow the B'Nai No'ach religion. B'Nai No'ach is not a religion. It is Ethical behavior taught by Orthodox Rabbis. I don't write G-D fully to protect the sanctity of HIS Holy Name.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Learning: The National Geographic magazine is the May 1984 issue. The article is titled 'The Dead Do Tell Tales at Vesuvius'. The picture of the cross is only the imprint of a T shaped Cross on the wall.There is no wooden cross(original or replica) pictured. I don't believe it is the imprint of a shelf because of the placing of the holes where the nails to support it on the wall are placed near the top and at the bottom of the imprint. The holes would be more consistent with hanging a cross on the wall. The House where the Cross imprint was discovered is at Herculaneum, not at Pompeii. Ok.. that makes more sense. Herculaneum was known for it's adherence to the principle of hedonism, and baccus, the god of wine, had the symbol of the cross as one of his symbols.

[Sacrificial Ram]

But "God" is a fairly generic name for a monotheistic deity. Is this "G-d" business a custom of orthodox Judaism? Isn't "God" generally a rendering of "Elohim"? I thought they only did this with YHWH (or whatever the equivalent of the Tetragrammaton is in the Hebrew alphabet)?

I thought I read somewhere that the reason the book of Esther (from Hebrew text) does not mention God is out of respect for the name, and that the name might be defamed by gentile mockers. It's interesting that God is mentioned in the extra Septuaguint chapters in Esther (e.g., as included in the RC NAB.)

I'd like to see ArchaicGuy's comments, since he seems to be a follower of this B'Nai No'ach religion.
The use of 'g-d' by orthodox Jews comes from the fact that documents that have the name of god on it have to be disposed of in a very specific manner. The use of g-d in the electonic medium is so that if someone
prints out that page, they would not lead someone down the path of breaking the mitzvah of properly disposing of the document. Yes, it is
a generic term, but they have judged it close enough for the purposes
of the handling of documents that mention god.

[rogero]

Rogero: I don't follow the B'Nai No'ach religion. B'Nai No'ach is not a religion. It is Ethical behavior taught by Orthodox Rabbis. I don't write G-D fully to protect the sanctity of HIS Holy Name.
You didn't answer my question. In light of the bolded sentence, why DO you write "G-d" then? Do Orthodox Rabbis express the deity as "G-d"? What about Elohim and the Tetragrammaton? I thought the latter is what they do not verbalize. ???

If I may be so bold to ask, what is your religion?

[ArchaicGuy]

Rogero: I answered your question.

[rogero]

The use of 'g-d' by orthodox Jews comes from the fact that documents that have the name of god on it have to be disposed of in a very specific manner. The use of g-d in the electonic medium is so that if someone
prints out that page, they would not lead someone down the path of breaking the mitzvah of properly disposing of the document. Yes, it is
a generic term, but they have judged it close enough for the purposes
of the handling of documents that mention god.
Thanks, Sac.

If this is the case -- weh's Mir -- O, the legalism! What an awful God these folks serve.

[rogero]

Rogero: I don't follow the B'Nai No'ach religion. B'Nai No'ach is not a religion. It is Ethical behavior taught by Orthodox Rabbis. I don't write G-D fully to protect the sanctity of HIS Holy Name.

Then why do you write "G-d"??? You do mean "don't" instead of "do"?


And, for the record, you did not answer my question. In particular, what religion do you claim?

[Sacrificial Ram]

Thanks, Sac.

If this is the case -- weh's Mir -- O, the legalism! What an awful God these folks serve.
It is a burden they decieded for themselves.. a choice on how they decieded to worship god. It is a custom, to show their dedication to god, not a commandment from god.

[learning]

Learning: The National Geographic magazine is the May 1984 issue. The article is titled 'The Dead Do Tell Tales at Vesuvius'. The picture of the cross is only the imprint of a T shaped Cross on the wall.There is no wooden cross(original or replica) pictured. I don't believe it is the imprint of a shelf because of the placing of the holes where the nails to support it on the wall are placed near the top and at the bottom of the imprint. The holes would be more consistent with hanging a cross on the wall. The House where the Cross imprint was discovered is at Herculaneum, not at Pompeii.

I believe you are right, I believe I mistakenly assumed I saw a picture of a real wooden cross, when it was the imprint that I saw.

[ArchaicGuy]

Learning: I found at a local Books-A-Million bookstore a book about the discovery of the John the Baptist Cave. The author's last name was Gibbons,I believe? In the book I have about the cross imprint at Herculaneam,it has a photo of the cross imprint and the wooden cabinet before the cabinet was cleaned. The archaeologists consensus was that the cross imprint was Christian rather than representative of Bacchus.

[Sacrificial Ram]

Learning: I found at a local Books-A-Million bookstore a book about the discovery of the John the Baptist Cave. The author's last name was Gibbons,I believe? In the book I have about the cross imprint at Herculaneam,it has a photo of the cross imprint and the wooden cabinet before the cabinet was cleaned. The archaeologists consensus was that the cross imprint was Christian rather than representative of Bacchus.
Well then, can you point to a peer review archelogical point on that, rather than a book made for kids?

Remember, if you look up the history of the crucifix in the Christian religion, it was not used as a christian symbol until the 4th century, and did not appear in Christian tombs until the 5th century. Herculeum was a Roman city which based it's philosophy on hedonism. The earlier versions of hedonism was merely the absense of pain, but had evolved into the active seeking of pleasure by 79 c.e.

From http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_symb.htm


The use of the cross as a symbol was condemned by at least one church father of the 3rd century CE because of its Pagan origins. The first appearance of a cross in Christian art is on a Vatican sarcophagus from the mid-5th Century. 11 It was a Greek cross with equal-length arms. Jesus' body was not shown. The first crucifixion scenes didn't appear in Christian art until the 7th century CE. The original cross symbol was in the form of a Tau Cross. It was so named because it looked like the letter "tau", or our letter "T". One author speculates that the Church may have copied the symbol from the Pagan Druids who made crosses in this form to represent the Thau (god). 7 They joined two limbs from oak trees. The Tau cross became associated with St. Philip who was allegedly crucified on such a cross in Phrygia. May Day, a major Druidic seasonal day of celebration, became St. Philip's Day. Later in Christian history, the Tau Cross became the Roman Cross that we are familiar with today.

[Jack777]

It is not out of the ordinary to think the cross might have been appropriated by Christians earlier than when it came into vogue. The mark of salvation in Ezekiel was the Hebrew tau cross.
The Hebrew Tau from the time of Ezekiel was similar to the Latin Crux immissa. People were familiar with the cross. 36,000 Jews were crucified, (representing 3,000 from each tribe) and Josephus tells us the Romans crucified Jews in so many numbers before the fall of the Temple that you could not go anywhere without seeing them. They skinned the Levite priests alive before crucifying them. Of course crucifixion was borrowed by the Romans. The Christian cross dates to about 472 AD. Most likely Christians would have been familiar with the cross and the chi rho as symbols before that because the chi rho is very similar to the monogram of Bel which dates back many centuries BC. The cross also looks like the symbol for Tanit (Tanit was a consort of Bel). The swastika is a cross form known to date back to pre-history. It sometimes was closer to what we call St. Andrew's Cross but also looked like the Latin cross in writing. The Hebrew Tau is the same as a protosanskrit symbol (the Hebrew schin has a protosanskrit equivalent too). The cross dates back a long time, before recorded history. Barry Fell has an article in the Epigraphic Society Occasional Publications about the protosanskrit, but I have my ESOP CD at home, so cannot give the exact vol. and no. to it.

Here are a few links to information about crosses and the Christian Cross.

http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefscrucifiedbacchus.htm (http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefscrucifiedbacchus.htm)

http://altreligion.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.menantolstudio.freeserve.co.uk/web%2520page%25203%285%29.htm (http://altreligion.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.menantolstudio.freeserve.co.uk/web%2520page%25203%285%29.htm)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08717c.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08717c.htm)

http://www.haverford.edu/engl/faculty/Sherman/Irish/crucifixion.htm (http://www.haverford.edu/engl/faculty/Sherman/Irish/crucifixion.htm)