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TheOneAndOnly
January 8th 2005, 12:59 AM
I have nothing against Wiccans, or anybody's faith but I want to say what I'm about to say and I think being blunt and brutally honest is the best way to do it:

What's the point in Wicca? It seems to be just twentieth century wishy-washy nonesense masquerading as enlightened religion. Why bother being a wiccan?
Here's a quote from religious tolerence faq on wicca:


What is Wicca?

Wicca, sometimes called "The Craft" or "The Craft of the Wise" is one of many earth-based religion. The religion which is closest to Wicca in America is probably Native American spirituality. Traditional Wicca was founded by Gerald Gardner, a British civil servant, who wrote a series of books on the religion in the 1940's. It contains references to Celtic deities, symbols, seasonal days of celebration, etc.

Craft of the wise!? What is wise about Wicca? This is just so pretentious.

Many Wiccans believe in a deity that is largely unknowable -- sometimes called "The All" or "The One." However, they believe that they can comprehend the male and female aspects of the deity, whom they call the God and the Goddess. Sometimes, they commune with "The Goddess" or "The God." Other times, they link with specific Pagan deities from the past. Instead of "the Goddess," they might relate to Athena, Brigit, Ceridwen, Diana, Hecate, Ishtar, Isis, Venus, etc.

Wicca seems to be stealing dead religions and pretending that they have some meaning in modern times. I mean borrowing names is one thing, but what does Wicca have to do with ancient Greek or Babylonian mythology? Aren't they just stealing concepts from pre-existing mythologies and artificially making a link with their modern religion?

Here's another faq from www.wicca.org

Q. Are Wicca and Witchcraft the same thing?

A. Some say yes, and some say no. I suppose the only way to navigate this question safely is to point out what some may consider the main differences. In general, Wiccans feel free to review different belief systems, such as Celtic, Norse, Essene, Gnosis, or Shamanism, and then blend together any points that "feel" right into their own personal path.

Is that blend or borrow? Do Wiccans who worship Odin say, worship him in any way resembling Nordic religious prectices, or have they just taken a "cool" sounding name and pretend they have some higher knowledge of ancient beliefs?


Q. Do Witches cast spells?

A. Some do and some don't. Spellwork should never be the focus of following this path and those who seek our ways only for this purpose are very misguided. A spell is a ritual formula, or series of steps, to direct psychic energy to accomplish a desired end.


This is the thing that annoys me the most. Spells are quite obviously just made up rituals and such and clearly have no power. How can anyone think otherwise? At least for religions like Christianity they can hide their powerless prayers in phrases like "god works in mysterious ways" but there is no excuse for thinking "spells" from a religion created a few decades ago have any power at all.


Q. What is the purpose of performing ceremonies Skyclad?

A. The term skyclad means "Clad only by the sky". Not all Witches perform rituals skyclad, but there are those who believe that the absence of clothing allows energy to transfer to and from them more freely

I mean... come on people. This is nonesense, isn't it? Is there any reason to believ any of this works? What energy are they talking about? I'm assuming it's the wishy-washy new age ill-defined "energy". Oh well.

Another thing that annoy me is when Witches somehow view the witches burned at the stake in medieval times are their spiritual brethren.
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a991029.html

So how did 20th-century Wicca get started? Power of the pen, babe. According to Adler, several writers helped stir public interest in witchcraft. One was Margaret Murray, who published The Witch-Cult in Western Europe (1921) and several more books. Murray argued that medieval witches practiced an ancient fertility religion she called the Dianic cult. While this was obviously a seminal idea, as it were, Adler says that "most scholars today view her work as filled with errors." An even more controversial figure is Gerald Gardner, an amateur anthropologist and folklorist who claimed he'd been initiated into a coven in 1939 and who wrote two influential books, Witchcraft Today (1954) and The Meaning of Witchcraft (1959). Among other things, he popularized the idea that witchcraft rituals ought to be conducted in the nude, a notion that titillated the masses for years. Gardner's work contained a lot of archaic-sounding ritual, some of which supposedly originated in a 16th-century "Book of Shadows." But it's been pretty well established that Gardner, who was influenced by occultists like Aleister Crowley, wrote or commissioned most of this stuff himself.

It seems modern witchcraft has practically nothing to do with medieval witches.

There, I've said what I wanted to say. Don't think I'm anti-wiccan or anything, but I think it should be held to the same scrutiny as any other belief system and I wanted to be as blunt and to the point as possible.

Minnesota
January 8th 2005, 01:32 AM
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:



:pot:

technomage
January 8th 2005, 01:50 AM
I have nothing against Wiccans, or anybody's faith but I want to say what I'm about to say and I think being blunt and brutally honest is the best way to do it: Sounds cool. And having read the points you make (some quite accurate, a few ... kind of questionable, but nothing for me to get into a sweat over), let's look at Wicca from a totally materialistic viewpoint.

Wiccans use ritualized actions at set intervals (as a group) or irregular intervals (as a "solitary," based on individual perception of the need) to give a format for necessary psychological changes or support. Every one of the elements that you mentioned (magic, skyclad ritual, the--admittedly silly, but psychologically supportive--claims of being the "craft of the wise," or what have you) has important symbolic meaning, and in the appropriate context can have positive emotional effect. Think of it as "ritualized group therapy."

Why go to a Wiccan ritual instead of therapy? Remember, for a lot of Wiccans, we're not dealing with severe psychological trauma--just the daily bumps and snags of life. For someone who'se basically emotionally healthy, this is a tremendous stress relief, as well as a way to socialize in a "safe" format.


:popcorn: Oh, was I supposed to go ballistic. Just for you, sweety.

:rant:

There, now ... feel better?

Minnesota
January 8th 2005, 03:03 AM
Would have really made my day, but what the ______, it's not a perfect world. :wink:

Thedonhopeless
February 1st 2005, 10:41 AM
Wiccans use ritualized actions at set intervals (as a group) or irregular intervals (as a "solitary," based on individual perception of the need) to give a format for necessary psychological changes or support. Every one of the elements that you mentioned (magic, skyclad ritual, the--admittedly silly, but psychologically supportive--claims of being the "craft of the wise," or what have you) has important symbolic meaning, and in the appropriate context can have positive emotional effect. Think of it as "ritualized group therapy."

Why go to a Wiccan ritual instead of therapy? Remember, for a lot of Wiccans, we're not dealing with severe psychological trauma--just the daily bumps and snags of life. For someone who'se basically emotionally healthy, this is a tremendous stress relief, as well as a way to socialize in a "safe" format.

--------------------------------------------------


Uhm, no offense whatsoever intended, but that was the single worse defense of any belief I have ever read.

You basically read the accusations of someone tearing apart your belief, and you simply reduce your own religion into a highly stylized form of self help?
Is Wiccan religion something I can pick up at my local YMCA as a place to reduce the stress I recieve from work?

Surely there is more defense to it then that? I mean, like actually answering the claims the OP brought up?

Again, no offense intended, your answer just seems pretty odd to me.

EvoUK
February 1st 2005, 10:58 AM
Q. What is the purpose of performing ceremonies Skyclad?

A. The term skyclad means "Clad only by the sky". Not all Witches perform rituals skyclad, but there are those who believe that the absence of clothing allows energy to transfer to and from them more freely

Skyclad? Is that what they're calling running around in your birthday suit these days?

[edited to add] Yay- another nice round number in my postings! (2,200)[/edited to add]

Solly
February 1st 2005, 11:06 AM
Let's get skyclad!!

Doesn't have the same overtones to it does it?

technomage
February 1st 2005, 11:18 AM
Uhm, no offense whatsoever intended, but that was the single worse defense of any belief I have ever read.
Well, yeah, it probably seemed pretty lame ... to a Christian. But remember, the OP was posted by an agnostic: I answered in an agnostic context (demonstrating that the mythic elements he brought up have a utilitarian purpose). Had you brought up the same objections, I would have phrased my response for a Christian context. Kind of like your Paul being "all things to all men," except I'm not trying to "persuade" any, but only to explain.


Surely there is more defense to it then that? I mean, like actually answering the claims the OP brought up?
Well ... the problem is, I quite agree with several of the points that he made. Calling Wicca the "Craft of the Wise" is pretentious. Some Wiccans claim--despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary--that Wicca is "connected" with pre-Christian religions, or with the putative "witches" executed in the European witch craze: I quite agree that this is nothing short of preposterous at best, and downright dishonest at worst.

One of the lessons I teach my students is the "Wiccan History Myth": basically, the lesson is to show why these myths developed, what purpose they played in the development of Wicca, and why I believe they are not just historically wrong, but ethically wrong. I'm certainly not going to defend a history myth that I not only believe is incorrect, but is also downright unethical.

At the same time, I also know that TheOneAndOnly is probably not interested in reading a 40+ page lesson (and it wouldn't do him much good if he was interested: I don't have it on the web yet). So he rejects the history myth ... well, I also reject it, so I can't exactly argue the point! :wink: (Well, I suppose I could, but it would be more than a bit silly.)


Again, no offense intended, your answer just seems pretty odd to me.
No offense taken whatsoever, my friend. :smile:

Justin

technomage
February 1st 2005, 11:25 AM
Skyclad? Is that what they're calling running around in your birthday suit these days?
Believe me, the practice is discussed more often than practiced ... especially this time of year. I would definitely rather NOT have a second navel, thank you very much! :wink:

Justin

Solly
February 1st 2005, 11:29 AM
Does Wicca fall into the general category of stuff that was starting in the 19th-20th centuries, like Rosicrucianism, Theosophy, Golden Dawn, etc?

technomage
February 1st 2005, 11:50 AM
Does Wicca fall into the general category of stuff that was starting in the 19th-20th centuries, like Rosicrucianism, Theosophy, Golden Dawn, etc?
Um ... sort of. Wicca was actually started in the late 1930s at the very earliest, but was heavily influenced by Ceremonial Magic (as started in the late 1800s).

Justin

Solly
February 1st 2005, 11:59 AM
Do you consider it to be a 'mythological/analogical' reading of reality, of elements we can't otherwise put into words and images? This reading can be matched with other readings through history, some bolder or more naive than others? Do you think it could be matched with a western post-materialist reading along the lines of Gary Zukav etc?

technomage
February 1st 2005, 12:21 PM
Do you consider it to be a 'mythological/analogical' reading of reality, of elements we can't otherwise put into words and images?
Hmmm. Not ... primarily, though a mythological or analogical view can be (but is not necessarily) part and parcel of the techniques.

One of the fundamental principles of Wicca is that this world (or "universe," or "creation," if you prefer) has it's own intrinsic reality, and its own intrinsic worth. To my mind, then, this is one basis of objective reality: ethically, it's also one of the bases for honesty, but that's another critter.

Now, most Wiccans posit that this reality is not the only one that exists, or that hs intrinsic worth, and most Wiccans call the other reality "the Spirit World," or some analogous term. While I also believe that this "spirit world" is objective reality, the experience does not translate very well: therefore, we can only have subjective knowledge of that reality. So a mythic or analogic understanding of the "spirit world" has developed to give some sort of common ground to communicate in this reality about experiences in that reality.

This "mythic or analogic" view is useful, as long as it is used in the correct context. One possible problem that I've seen several Wiccans (and no few Christians) fall prey to is trying to view this reality in a mythic or analogic context: to my mind, it simply doesn't work, and I frequently end up calling these people "Too heavenly minded for any earthly good." And if you're laughing, then you know at least one person who falls under that description. :wink:

Mainly it's a matter of context, and a large part of the practical training in Wicca is to be able to use the proper framework in the proper context, and to be able to switch "readings" at will.


This reading can be matched with other readings through history, some bolder or more naive than others?
There are a lot of Wiccans who believe so ... but I tend to view that belief as naive at best, and absolutely assenine at worst. One cannot use a mythic reading in a "real world" context without running the risk of misunderstanding or misinterpreting what one perceives.

Also see: The Travails of the Students (http://www.geocities.com/earthstarwicca/shadows/travails-of-the-students.html)


Do you think it could be matched with a western post-materialist reading along the lines of Gary Zukav etc?
I'm not familiar with Zukav ... the last thing I read by him was Dancing Wu Li Masters, and I only got through the first chapter--and that was several years ago. Boring as heck!

Justin

Solly
February 1st 2005, 12:23 PM
Thanks! I see your other thread has been bumped up, so i'll take a look through that as well.

Thedonhopeless
February 1st 2005, 03:01 PM
Ok Justin, I get ya now. Sorry for the mix up :blush:

Heathen Dawn
February 4th 2005, 08:46 AM
What's the point in Wicca?

The same point as in any religion: to connect the practitioner with the Divine.


Why bother being a wiccan?

Because it’s a modern religion and, as such, is free from prejudicial baggage of ages past (such as male chauvinism and homophobia). And it’s the way to God for some people, including me.


Craft of the wise!?

That’s a false etymology, from those who thought the word wicca meant “wise.” People do make mistakes.


Wicca seems to be stealing dead religions

Not stealing but copying. Stealing is when I take something from you and you no longer have it, such as a chair. When I take something from you and you still have it, it’s called copying.


and pretending that they have some meaning in modern times.

It’s not pretending, they do have meaning in modern times, and a lot of it. I left atheism for paganism because atheism is meaningless.


Do Wiccans who worship Odin say, worship him in any way resembling Nordic religious prectices, or have they just taken a "cool" sounding name and pretend they have some higher knowledge of ancient beliefs?

Odin is a truly, literally existent God. There are those who worship him as His ancient worshippers did, and they are called Norse Reconstructionists, or Ásatrúar; whereas Wiccans who worship Him do so in the Wiccan way, using rituals, Circles and the rest.


Spells are quite obviously just made up rituals and such and clearly have no power.

Unsupported assertion.


How can anyone think otherwise?

It just takes a little getting out of the box of the scientistic mindset.


I mean... come on people. This is nonesense, isn't it? Is there any reason to believ any of this works?

It’s worked for me, so I believe in it.


What energy are they talking about? I'm assuming it's the wishy-washy new age ill-defined "energy". Oh well.

What scepticism are you displaying? I’m assuming it’s the stingy naturalistic closed-minded scepticism. Oh well.


Don't think I'm anti-wiccan or anything

All right. Don’t think your comments are new or anything.


but I think it should be held to the same scrutiny as any other belief system

OK. And atheism should be held to the same scrutiny as any other belief system too.

steamer
February 4th 2005, 01:57 PM
I left atheism for paganism because atheism is meaningless.How is atheism meaningless?

Heathen Dawn
February 5th 2005, 05:42 PM
How is atheism meaningless?

Richard Dawkins put it most succintly:


In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.

(River Out Of Eden, p. 133)

steamer
February 7th 2005, 03:17 PM
Richard Dawkins put it most succintly:
Funny that you see it as meaningless and I see it as all the more reason to appreciate the life you have right now as you live it. How does contemplation of imperceptable beings make life more meaningful?

Mark_S
February 26th 2005, 04:58 PM
RE: Spells



It’s worked for me, so I believe in it.


What kind of spells? I mean what do they do? What kind of rituals to perform them? Forgive my ignorance, I've heard/read about this stuff, but never first hand.


Thanks,
Mark

James Peter
March 1st 2005, 06:29 PM
I have no doubt either that there is power in Wicca, even if it is simply copying earlier techniques and modernising them. For a christian to claim that magic has no power is to completely go against what the bible says on the subject. Of course, that said, I'm not going to encourage anybody to go down that path because I know that the path I follow is simply more powerful. Whilst there almost certainly is a being called Odin who has godlike powers (supernatural powers that is) I simply know the God who reigns over all; the God that Odin himself acknowledges as Lord of Lords.

Anyway I have to agree that atheism makes the universe pointless. Nothing has any meaning except the purley subjective value we give it? Lets embrace hedonism then. Thats not to say that I believe in God because not believing in Him would make me valueless, its simply a case that if the universe were different then we'd all be valueless. Thankfully that isn't the case.