The Preterist Debate Thread - Questions And Answers

[Terral]

Greetings To All:

This thread is dedicated to proving that Christ’s discourse in Matthew 24 is about global cataclysmic events that affect all people, nations and tongues of the whole world. If the Preterist supposition is correct, then Christ’s speech to the Twelve pertains to the Temple and Jerusalem (leveled in 70 AD) and little else. I encourage all Preterists everywhere to try and disprove any statements made in this post. If you see these ‘day of the Lord’ events as future, then please cut and paste the most convincing statements from this post to a reply, so that your vote of approval can be noted. Your comments will be a blessing and work to assist me in shaping future arguments against Preterism. If you have any questions then please ask them.

Christ is describing the signs of all these things that take place just prior to ‘His coming’ at the ‘end of the age.’ Matt. 24:3-31. He is talking about, “the hour of testing, that which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” Rev. 3:10. Preterists here have convinced themselves that the ‘signs’ of ‘all these things’ relate to the Temple and a local event here in Jerusalem. Christ is describing the final events of the ‘day of the Lord’ that occur just prior to “Your Coming” at the “End of the Age” (Matt. 24:3). The phrase “end of the age” is used just a handful of times in Scripture. Only Daniel uses it in the OT in the last verse of the last chapter (Dan. 12:13) with Christ using the phrase five times here in Matthew (13:39, 40, 49, 24:3, 28:20). That last use of the phrase by Christ is in the last verse of the last chapter of Matthew. Interestingly, this little phrase ends the books of Daniel and Matthew. Matthew 24 has the distinction of being the only chapter in Scripture to have this phrase used in the first three verses. Therefore, since Christ is declaring the signs of ‘all these things’ leading up to “Your coming” at the “End of the Age,” we can use these other references to understand more about the events that transpire at the end of the age.

“He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up [ Matt. 24:15 ], there will be 1,290 days. How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age*.”
These prophecies of Daniel coincide with Christ’s teaching of the ‘last day.’ John 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:40 (See John 6:39-54). At this point we have only the three references in Matthew 13 (vs. 39, 40, 49), and the very last verse of Matthew 28 to compare to our target verse in Matthew 24:3.


“And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels [Matt. 24:30+31 ]. So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
How many here realize that the ‘end of the age’ is about Christ coming to judge the living and the dead? We see His coming right here with His angels to sort out the good from the evil, with the evil going into the lake of fire. The good seed shall receive their ‘allotted portion at the end of the age*.’ Dan. 12:13. For those who wish to take this understanding a step farther; Matthew 13 contains keys to unlock doors in Revelation. John is standing inside the ‘day of the Lord’ (Lord’s day; Rev. 1:10) and describes seven church periods (Rev. 1-3) that run from the start to the end of ‘the thousand years’ (Rev. 20:5). The seven parables of Matthew 13 overlay these seven church phases in consecutive order with the ‘sower’ parables first and the ‘harvest’ parables at the end. The end of Revelation 3 marks the end of the age with the church in Laodicea (vs. 14-22) being on the earth when the gathering (Matt. 24:31) comes. Rev. 4-20 is the retelling of the final ‘end time’ events over and over again from various perspectives.


“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea [ Matt. 24:31 ], and gathering fish of every kind; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth [ Matt. 24:31 ] and take out the wicked from among the righteous, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Christ stops before telling the Disciples about the Judgment in Matthew 24, because their question was about “Your coming” and the “End of the Age.” Matt. 24:3. Christ gives the long list of signs, and then says the generation to see all those signs would see Him at the door:


“. . . so, you too, when you [ this generation ] see all these things*, recognize that He is near, right at the door**. Truly I say to you, this generation [ to see all these things* ] will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away [ at the end of the age; Rev. 20:11+21:1 ], but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.”
Compare Christ’s words here concerning the ‘end of the age,’ to Him speaking through John at the end of Revelation 3.


“Behold, I stand at the door** and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. He who overcomes [ endures to the end: Matt. 24:13 ], I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”
You should be able to see that Christ’s coming in glory with His angels at the ‘end of the age’ is about Judging the living and the dead, and sorting them into two groups. In the next chapter of Matthew Christ continues with His discourse about His coming in glory:


“Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. But when the Son of Man comes in His glory [ Matt. 24:30 ], and all the angels with Him [ Matt. 24:31 ], then He will sit on His glorious throne [ Rev. 20:11 ]. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep [ good ] from the goats [ bad ]; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right [ good seed/fish ], 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom [ allotted portion; Dan. 12:13 ] prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”
The true context of Christ’s discourse to the Twelve in Matthew 24 is that He is answering the Disciple’s question concerning “Your coming” and the “End of the Age.” Matt. 24:3. If they had asked about “Your Coming,” the “End of the Age,” and “the Judgment,” then Christ’s teaching in Matthew 25 would appear here in Matthew 24. The ‘question’ of the Twelve is what establishes the true context for the shaping of Christ’s answer. They did not ask “When will the Temple be destroyed?”. Christ asked them a question in verse 2: Did He ask if they saw the Temple? No. He said, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.” Matt. 24:2.


Was Christ talking about just the Temple or even just Jerusalem? No. He is headed for the Mount of Olives across the KidronValley where a cataclysmic event affecting the whole world (Rev. 3:10) is going to take place:


“Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east [ “sitting on the Mount of Olives” Matt. 24:3 ]; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come*, and all the holy ones with Him! In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.”
This is the “Your coming*” at the “end of the age” cataclysmic event that Christ is talking about, when one stone will not be left upon another. John describes that Judgment in Revelation 20:11-15. Zechariah is describing events right on through the coming of the new heaven and new earth of Rev. 21:+. As you can clearly see, nothing like this occurred back in 70 AD, when those bad Romans came and ransacked Israel and looted all their goods. There is no comparison to the ‘end of the age’ events that Scripture describes throughout, and what occurred when Jerusalem was leveled by the Romans 2000 years ago.


In Christ,


Terral

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

I was looking through the eschatology and I found this unanswered post by my good buddy Terral. Not this response is not so much for him, as it is for those of you who are new to TWeb (especially Makarios and redifrick) and have been following the recent exchanges between Terral and myself. You may have noticed that recently there has not been much substance in either of our post.



You may also have noticed that this is because Terral offeres nothing of substance, and all I do is point that out. However, if you have not taken the time to read the older portion of the threads, you may not realize that I am capable of presenting a substantive reply. Well I am, and will show here in this thread. You can see from the beginning a thread started by Terral, my substantive reply, followed by Terral’s assertion evasion, and outright denying that I have provided any support scriptural or otherwise for my position:



So with out further ado, let the trouncing of Terral begin:



Greetings To All:

This thread is dedicated to proving that Christ’s discourse in Matthew 24 is about global cataclysmic events that affect all people, nations and tongues of the whole world.



Good luck. You’ll need it.



If the Preterist supposition is correct, then Christ’s speech to the Twelve pertains to the Temple and Jerusalem (leveled in 70 AD) and little else.



As if the abolition of the Temple and the Old Covenant restricted to national Israel and the inauguration of the Kingdom of God on earth is “little else”. :no:



I encourage all Preterists everywhere to try and disprove any statements made in this post.



See below:



If you see these ‘day of the Lord’ events as future, then please cut and paste the most convincing statements from this post to a reply, so that your vote of approval can be noted.



The silence is underwhelming.



Your comments will be a blessing and work to assist me in shaping future arguments against Preterism.



You need all the help you can get.



Christ is describing the signs of all these things that take place just prior to ‘His coming’ at the ‘end of the age.’ Matt. 24:3-31. He is talking about, “the hour of testing, that which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” Rev. 3:10.





First. Note that Terral asserts that Matthew 24 and Rev. 3:10 are talking about the same events.



Second Terral is assuming that “whole world” means the entire planent earth. However, the same Greek word translated world (oikoumenhs is often translated ‘inhabited world”. So even if he makes the connection of Rev. 3:10 to Matthew 24, he still has to justify translating oikoumens as the entire planet.



Preterists here have convinced themselves that the ‘signs’ of ‘all these things’ relate to the Temple and a local event here in Jerusalem. Christ is describing the final events of the ‘day of the Lord’ that occur just prior to “Your Coming” at the “End of the Age” (Matt. 24:3). The phrase “end of the age” is used just a handful of times in Scripture. Only Daniel uses it in the OT in the last verse of the last chapter (Dan. 12:13) with Christ using the phrase five times here in Matthew (13:39, 40, 49, 24:3, 28:20). That last use of the phrase by Christ is in the last verse of the last chapter of Matthew. Interestingly, this little phrase ends the books of Daniel and Matthew. Matthew 24 has the distinction of being the only chapter in Scripture to have this phrase used in the first three verses. Therefore, since Christ is declaring the signs of ‘all these things’ leading up to “Your coming” at the “End of the Age,” we can use these other references to understand more about the events that transpire at the end of the age.



Terral here quotes a lot of neutral facts, but fails to show how they support his position. All he does is assert that “end of the age” somehow equates with “last day”:



But lets compare Daniel 12:9-12 to Rev:



9He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.



10And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.



The prophecy in Daniel was to be sealed up until the time of the end. And according to Terral that is the end of the age and it is described in Revelatoin. Yet God tells John, not to seal the prophecy because the time is near.



And Revelation was written about AD 67 (a subject for another thread) which is pretty darn near to AD 70.



11And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. 12Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.



According to preterist (well some preterist anyway this took place in AD 70 or thereabouts. But how can this be Terral ask?





In late AD 66 Cestius surrounded Jerusalem. However, Cestius was called back to Rome and left Jerusalem alone. 43 months later (months of 30 days as the Jews reckoned months or 1290 days) later the Roman Army returns under Titus to Jerusalem to lay siege to it again and caused the dailey (regular) sacrifices of lambs to cease. This was considered by the Jews as a sign of impending doom (and it was). Eventually tearing down (desolation) the temple.

How long did it take? 45 days. 1290 + 45 = 1335. For more detailed information on this see Philip Mauro’s piece on this here. http://www.historicism.com/mauro/mauroI-10.htm


These prophecies of Daniel coincide with Christ’s teaching of the ‘last day.’ John 6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”



More assertion that the “last day” and the end of the age are the same. Note, I am not saying that they are not, just that Terral makes no case for them being the same thing other than mere assertion.



John 6:40 (See John 6:39-54). At this point we have only the three references in Matthew 13 (vs. 39, 40, 49), and the very last verse of Matthew 28 to compare to our target verse in Matthew 24:3.


“And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels [Matt. 24:30+31 ]. So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
How many here realize that the ‘end of the age’ is about Christ coming to judge the living and the dead? We see His coming right here with His angels to sort out the good from the evil, with the evil going into the lake of fire. The good seed shall receive their ‘allotted portion at the end of the age*.’ Dan. 12:13. For those who wish to take this understanding a step farther; Matthew 13 contains keys to unlock doors in Revelation.



I’ve am dealing with Mt. 13 here: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46023



With a futurist who actually knows how to debate so I will not address that again in this thread.



Christ stops before telling the Disciples about the Judgment in Matthew 24, because their question was about “Your coming” and the “End of the Age.” Matt. 24:3. Christ gives the long list of signs, and then says the generation to see all those signs would see Him at the door:



More assertion by Terral. No support. I have shown elsewhere at TWeb that “this generation” in Matthew 24:34 is the generation living at that time (i.e. the first century.) I will not rehash that argument here. My assertion that it is so is just as valid as Terral’s.





<snip>More assertions and Terral repeating himself <snip>



They did not ask “When will the Temple be destroyed?”. Christ asked them a question in verse 2: Did He ask if they saw the Temple? No. He said, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.” Matt. 24:2.



Terral, by his own admission, retracts this when I forced him to compare Mt. 24:2 with Mark 11:1-3 here: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45676



Mark 13:1+2 parallels Matthew 24:1+2. We already understand that Christ is talking about the Temple buildings in those two verses in BOTH CHAPTERS. Since we agree on that point, then there is NOTHING TO DEBATE. We are here to determine the true identity of ‘this generation’ seeing ‘all these things’ (events). Matt. 24:33+34.



Notice that he never actually admitted that he was wrong about 24:1-2, but back tracks into another debate about v. 34. You will see more of that in his reposnes in this thread.



Was Christ talking about just the Temple or even just Jerusalem? No. He is headed for the Mount of Olives across the KidronValley where a cataclysmic event affecting the whole world (Rev. 3:10) is going to take place:



I’ve dealt with Zechiariah 14 here: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45387



I predict that Terral will accuse me of not addressing his all his points. This is true, but I addressed all the points that I have not yet addressed in great detail, and provided links to other threads where I addressed the points that I did not address this thread.



Terral will try to avoid answering the points I made in this post by asking questions about the points I did not address in this thread. I will not play that game. I will only address comments relating to the points I have made in this post. If Terral wants to dialog with me regarding the other points he can take it to the other threads. The exception being Matthew 13. Since the thread where I addressed that is closed to everyone except me and Bill the Cat, if Terral wants to discuss the issues I bring up in that other thread here, I will discuss them here. (Note, he must ask questions about what I said in that thread not question about Mt. 13 in general).

[Terral]

Faramir:
Terral Original >> Christ is describing the signs of all these things that take place just prior to ‘His coming’ at the ‘end of the age.’ Matt. 24:3-31. He is talking about, “the hour of testing, that which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” Rev. 3:10.

Faramir >> First. Note that Terral asserts that Matthew 24 and Rev. 3:10 are talking about the same events.
This is no mere assertion, but a statement of Scriptural fact. Christ is giving the same “Olivet Discourse” in Luke 21, and says "There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” Luke 21:25+36. What makes the Preterists believe that the ‘end of the age’ affects only Jerusalem? The same ‘earthquakes, famines, wars, etc. of Matthew 24 are all described in the Book of Revelation. We see the sun darkened in Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 8:12, 9:2. These are the signs given in Joel 2:31 and Acts 2:20 as occurring just before the ‘great and glorious’ Judgment part of the ‘day of the Lord.’ Christ is describing events leading up to the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3), and John is describing the same exact events throughout Revelation. That is the ‘hour of testing’ that Christ is talking about in Rev. 3:10. The Preterists here want to believe that the events of Matthew 24 take place in a vacuum, as if Daniel 11+12, Zechariah 14:1-7, Zephaniah 1:1-7, Joel 2:28-32, Matthew 24:3-31, Acts 2:17-21, 2Pet. 3:7-12 are not ALL being fulfilled in the Book of Revelation. John tells you that he is standing in the Spirit on the “Lord’s day” (day of the Lord) in Revelation 1:10. He then proceeds to describe the fulfillment of every “day of the Lord” and “end of the age” prophecy in the entire Bible. Then Mr. Faramir here has the audacity to say that I am making mere assertions, even though the entire Bible is saying exactly what I am saying to a Tee.
Faramir >> Second Terral is assuming that “whole world” means the entire planent earth. However, the same Greek word translated world (οικουμενησ is often translated ‘inhabited world”. So even if he makes the connection of Rev. 3:10 to Matthew 24, he still has to justify translating οικουμενσ as the entire planet.
The ‘end of the age’ definitely affects the entire planet, whether you wish to believe it or not. Your job is to prove that ‘whole world’ means the Romans destroying Jerusalem in 70 AD. We have the term ‘earthquake’ used in Zechariah 14:5 and the very next use in Matthew 24:7. Zechariah describes the Mount of Olives being split in two in Zech. 14:3+4 in what is perhaps the largest earthquake ever seen on this planet. Then we see John describe this earthquake at the end of the age, saying, “And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.” Rev. 16:18. This is the same ‘earthquake’ that shall see every stone torn down at “Your coming” and the “End of the Age” (Matt. 24:3+), when Christ’s feet once again stand on this same “Mount of Olives” described in Zechariah 14:3+4. Christ is pointing to the end of the age that affects the entire planet, and not what the Romans did 2000 years ago to ONE CITY. I can hardly believe that anybody can believe such NONSENSE, and then kick back and Pretend that he has proved something out of Scripture.
Terral Original >> Preterists here have convinced themselves that the ‘signs’ of ‘all these things’ relate to the Temple and a local event here in Jerusalem. Christ is describing the final events of the ‘day of the Lord’ that occur just prior to “Your Coming” at the “End of the Age” (Matt. 24:3). The phrase “end of the age” is used just a handful of times in Scripture. Only Daniel uses it in the OT in the last verse of the last chapter (Dan. 12:13) with Christ using the phrase five times here in Matthew (13:39, 40, 49, 24:3, 28:20). That last use of the phrase by Christ is in the last verse of the last chapter of Matthew. Interestingly, this little phrase ends the books of Daniel and Matthew. Matthew 24 has the distinction of being the only chapter in Scripture to have this phrase used in the first three verses. Therefore, since Christ is declaring the signs of ‘all these things’ leading up to “Your coming” at the “End of the Age,” we can use these other references to understand more about the events that transpire at the end of the age.

Faramir >> According to preterist (well some preterist anyway this took place in AD 70 or thereabouts. But how can this be Terral ask?
The Preterists saying so does not mean anything. The Romans leveled many cities in the centuries they dominated this planet. Those events do not mark the ‘end of the age,’ by any stretch of the imagination. The same ‘darkness’ (Eph. 6:12) has been in place since Genesis 1:2 and the time that this ‘evil age’ (Gal. 1:4) began. The ‘end of the age’ is marked by the judgment when the devil (Rev. 20:10) and all his cronies (Rev. 19:20, 20:11-15) are in the lake of fire. Our mystery church (Eph. 5:32) is ‘caught up’ (1Thes. 4:17) when the day of the Lord is ‘at hand.’ 2Thes. 2:2. Therefore, all of the ‘day of the Lord’ prophecies are fulfilled in the FUTURE, and after we are gathered to the Lord. In case you are unaware, the Romans continued do dominate their known world for centuries after they destroyed Jerusalem. The Colosseum was not even built, until a decade after Jerusalem was burned to the ground in 70 AD. The idea that this world went through the ‘end of the age’ is a figment of the Preterists collective imaginations.

In Christ,

Terral

[redifrick]

Hi Terral,

Your opening post deals with the following:

1) "This thread is dedicated to proving that Christ’s discourse in Matthew 24 is about global cataclysmic events that affect all people, nations and tongues of the whole world."

2) Christ is describing the signs of all these things that take place just prior to ‘His coming’ at the ‘end of the age.’ Matt. 24:3-31.

It boils down to the fact that if the events of the Olivet are tommorrow, Terral has a basis for argument,it could be argued to be global or whatever. If the events of the Olivet were yesterday, Terral has no arguments whatsoever and his entire post is wrong and meaningless.

If the events were yesterday it did not involve the entire planet. If it was yesterday the things that take place and are described in Matthew 24:3-31, have taken place. If it was yesterday the 'end of the age' was NOT the end of the planet, but the end of some other age or world(aion).

As an overview, Jesus and some deciples had just left the Herod temple in Jerusalem and one of the deciples said:
MArk 13
1As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”

Jesus responded with a prophecy, that prophecy was recorded identically by all three writers who describe the Olivet Discourse:

Mark 13:
2“Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Jesus spoke of THESE specific buildings, Jesus stated specifcally that THESE buildings would be torn down. I mention that just to eliminate the would be argument about the 'wailing wall still standing so it wasn't those buildings' argument. Of course, Jesus meant THOSE buildings, perhaps He never pointed at the area of the wailing wall when He said it or perhaps any of a dozen explanations but Jesus never lied and Jesus never incorrectly predicted anything.

The deciples, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately:

Mark 13
4“Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

Luke 21
7“Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

Matthew 24
“Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

From the way the questions are worded by the three writers we know that they are asking when the temple will be destroyed in all cases. Matthew adds the mention of the end and the coming.

However the things listed have to include the events that lead up to the destrution of the temple because in two of the writings about the conversation it is only the things of the temple that is asked about.
The following appear in all three lists of things that occur:

1)They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

2)34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Matthew lists a different question than Luke and Mark, yet list the coming and the generation statement identical.

There is only one way that all three writers can be correct in how they recorded the conversation and that is if the coming is one of the things that is involved with the destruction of the temple. And that would be the Herod temple not some fictious third temple.

Does that fit with any other scripture?

Yes, it fits here:

Hebrews 9
26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

For clarity on the 'where in the world' question we can look at the KJV:

26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

As someone mentioned history does tell us that actual Christians did flee to Pella in the first century. Just as an execise one might look up Judea on any modern map and determine how to flee from a non-existant province.

One of your arguments somewhere is about the seven churches of Rev 2 and 3.

I would point out a verse in Rev 2 in the letter to Thyatira.

25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

Are 'christians' at Thyatira today still waiting for Jesus to come? Is there anby 'christians' at Thyatira today?

I realize that Terral makes a bid to have readers think that Jesus and His deciples were not talking about the Herod temple, but until he/she can separate the fact that they just toured the temple and kicked over the tables there, (Jesus was downright mad at the goings on in that temple) the only reason to consider a third temple is to promote or comply with false religious doctrine.

So my contention is that there is only one way that all three writers can be correct in how rthey record the question and how they record the things that will happen in that generation including the coming of the son of man.

If anyone wants to read a more informed version of my argument it was on the CARM website a long time ago. It may still be there?????I don't recall the poster or ???

redifrick

[Chief of Staff Lizard]

Faramir:

This is no mere assertion, but a statement of Scriptural fact. Christ is giving the same “Olivet Discourse” in Luke 21, and says "There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” Luke 21:25+36. One assertion followed by another. In order to go beyond assertion you have to do more than throw up two scriptures and say they are talking about the same thing. You need to give an explanation as to why they are talking about the same thing. You know like I did when I compared Michah 1 and Zech 14 in another thread.

What makes the Preterists believe that the ‘end of the age’ affects only Jerusalem? What makes you think that the preterist think that the "end of the age" only affected Jerusalem.

The destruction of Jerualem was the visilbe manifestation of the end of the age for certain. But the age that ended was the age of Jewish sacrifice and the exclusive covenant between God and national Israel. This opened up the covenenant to gentiles and affected (and is still affecting) the entire world.

What makes Terral think that the end of Temple worship is an insignificant event in redemtive history. This was a major change in the Covenental relationship between man and God. Yet Terral thinks that there is no prohpecy at all about the AD 70 destruction of the Temple.
:no:

The same ‘earthquakes, famines, wars, etc. of Matthew 24 are all described in the Book of Revelation. We see the sun darkened in Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 8:12, 9:2. These are the signs given in Joel 2:31 and Acts 2:20 as occurring just before the ‘great and glorious’ Judgment part of the ‘day of the Lord.’ Christ is describing events leading up to the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3), and John is describing the same exact events throughout Revelation. That is the ‘hour of testing’ that Christ is talking about in Rev. 3:10.
Translation: Terral takes Rev. 3:10 out of context because that is the only way it fits his interpretation. Rev. 3 is a letter to the first century church in Phiadelphia. It says, that Christ will keep this church for the hour of trials about to come on the oikemene (which can be but does not have to be translated as world, and in the context of a letter to a local church should not be). Yet Terral want to pretend that it is talking about some still future event.

Notice how Terral ignores the point I made about about to come in v. 10 all together. Ignoring it does not mean that it is not there.

The Preterists here want to believe that the events of Matthew 24 take place in a vacuum, as if Daniel 11+12, Zechariah 14:1-7, Zephaniah 1:1-7, Joel 2:28-32, Matthew 24:3-31, Acts 2:17-21, 2Pet. 3:7-12 are not ALL being fulfilled in the Book of Revelation. John tells you that he is standing in the Spirit on the “Lord’s day” (day of the Lord) in Revelation 1:10. He then proceeds to describe the fulfillment of every “day of the Lord” and “end of the age” prophecy in the entire Bible. Then Mr. Faramir here has the audacity to say that I am making mere assertions, even though the entire Bible is saying exactly what I am saying to a Tee.
Translation: Terral has no clue what the word assertion means, becasuse he contiues to assert without providing any argumentation.

Terral let me demonstrate. I can assert just as well as you can:

The Futurist here want to believe that the events of Matthew 24 take place in a vacuum, as if Daniel 11+12, Zechariah 14:1-7, Zephaniah 1:1-7, Joel 2:28-32, Matthew 24:3-31, Acts 2:17-21, 2Pet. 3:7-12 are not ALL being fulfilled in the Book of Revelation. John tells you that he is standing in the Spirit on the “Lord’s day” (Sunday) in Revelation 1:10. He then proceeds to describe the fulfillment of every “day of the Lord” and “end of the age” prophecy in the entire Bible. Then Mr. Terral here has the audacity to say that I am making mere assertions, even though the entire Bible is saying exactly what I am saying to a Tee

You see. All I did was change a few words to make Terrals assertions my assertions. I could not do that nearly so easily if Terral made actual points.

The ‘end of the age’ definitely affects the entire planet, whether you wish to believe it or not.
The 'end of the age" definitely happened in AD 70, whether you wish to believe it or not.

Now I see why Terral likes to assert. It's easy. But it hardly proves anything.

Your job is to prove that ‘whole world’ means the Romans destroying Jerusalem in 70 AD. Well, I showed that based on the context of Rev. 3 (letter to first century church and the soon nature of the judgment) why 'oikemene' should not be taken as whole world.

Now it is your job to show that I am wrong (I predict that Terral will only assert that I am wrong, and that I have proved nothing.)

The Preterists saying so does not mean anything. The Romans leveled many cities in the centuries they dominated this planet. Those events do not mark the ‘end of the age,’ by any stretch of the imagination. Translation: Terral is so blinded by his own interpretation that he can not see a valid point when it bites him on his hind quarters.

Yes the Romans leveled many cities. How many of them are mentioned in Zech. 14? 1. Jerusalem? How many of them are mentioned in Mt. 24? 1. Jerusalem. How many of them were the center for the worship of the one true God? 1. Jerusalem.

Terral seems to think that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple of Jehovah, is no more significant to the history of redeption than the destruction of any pagan city.

And notice what Terral did not respond to:


Daniel 9:9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

The prophecy in Daniel was to be sealed up until the time of the end. And according to Terral that is the end of the age and it is described in Revelation. Yet God tells John, not to seal the prophecy because the time is near.


Preterist believe that Revelation 22:10 means exactly what it says. How do futurist explain this away Terral?

:sig:

[Terral]

Red:
Red >> From the way the questions are worded by the three writers we know that they are asking when the temple will be destroyed in all cases. Matthew adds the mention of the end and the coming.
No sir. The question of the Twelve is given in Matthew 24:3:
“As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Matthew 24:3.
They are asking when ‘these events’ will be, and what will be the sign of “Your coming” and the “End of the Age.” They are no longer standing on the Temple side of the Kidron Valley, but the Disciples have approached Christ privately while He is sitting on the Mount of Olives. How did the Twelve make the connection between these events and the sign of “Your coming” and the “end of the age” in order to include those things in their question? We are not given that information, but we are to assume that they did not make the trek up down into the valley and up the Mount of Olives in complete silence. They had pondered upon those things and returned with their question in verse 3. Christ’s answer to the Twelve is made to their question here, and not to prior statements that were made while walking on the Temple side of the Kidron Valley.

If your suppositions were correct, then Christ’s answer would be about the Temple and those buildings with references to the Romans burning them down in 70 AD. Of course, there would be no war or rumors of wars, because the Romans had already conquered and occupied Israel. Jerusalem would live in subjection to the Romans for the next four decades, until finally they would burn the whole city to the ground and scatter Israel among the nations. Unfortunately for your case, that is not what Christ describes in Matthew 24:3-31 where Christ is describing the fulfillment of Zechariah 14.
Red >> However the things listed have to include the events that lead up to the destrution of the temple because in two of the writings about the conversation it is only the things of the temple that is asked about. The following appear in all three lists of things that occur:
No sir. That is your supposition that is based upon your opinion. Where did Christ give a reply about the Temple and those buildings being destroyed? NOWHERE! Instead, He talks about the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Matt. 24:15) being ‘set up’ (Dan. 11:31, 12:11), where the ‘man of sin’ (2Thes. 2:3) takes his seat in the Temple of God displaying himself as being God. 2Thes. 2:4. You are saying that ‘set up’ = ‘torn down’ to prop up your Preterist interpretation.
Red >> 1)They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 2)34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Matthew lists a different question than Luke and Mark, yet list the coming and the generation statement identical.
These Epistles are synoptic accounts of the same Olivet Discourse that Christ gives in Matthew 24. You left out a ton of details to skip down an cite the “this generation” verse that appears after Christ presented all the signs of “Your coming” and the “end of the age” that “this generation” is going to see. Christ has no idea if “this generation” = “your generation” living in that day, as the ‘Father alone’ (vs. 36) knows when these things take place.
Red >> There is only one way that all three writers can be correct in how they recorded the conversation and that is if the coming is one of the things that is involved with the destruction of the temple. And that would be the Herod temple not some fictious third temple.
No sir. Again, that is your Preterist supposition based upon an incorrect understanding of how Christ is describing the fulfillment of Zechariah 14. The Temple can be rebuilt and torn down a hundred times, but the one standing at “Your coming” and the “end of the age” will be leveled when the Mount of Olives is split in its middle to fulfill Zechariah 14:3+4.



“Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle.” Zechariah 14:3-6.
As you can clearly see, the Mount of Olives is still in one piece, and the Lord’s coming with His holy ones (Zech. 14:5, Matt. 24:30+31) IS STILL FUTURE.

In Christ,

Terral