Joseph's boundless ego!

[Krusader]

As reported in History of the Church, vol. 6, pgs. 408-409, Smith once said:

"If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of the mountain and crow like a rooster. I shall always beat them....I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

As related in Figures of the Past, as cited in "Among the Mormons," pg. 138, Smith is quoted by Josiah Quincy as saying:

"Is not here one greater than Solomon, who built a Temple with the treasures of his father David and with the assistance of Huran (sic), King of Tyre. Joseph Smith has built his Temple with no one to aid him in the work."

As quoted in History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 319-320, Smith is quoted as stating:

"God made Aaron to be the mouth piece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it."

Can anyone recall a Bible figure with such a braggadocious nature? Smith's claim is that he's greater than Jesus, greater than Solomon, and is "god" to his people.

Of course, Young did say that nobody will enter the Celestial Kingdom without the "certificate" of Joseph Smith, for he reigns there "as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity and calling, as God does in heaven." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).

[Sparko]

"God made Aaron to be the mouth piece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it."

Can anyone recall a Bible figure with such a braggadocious nature? Smith's claim is that he's greater than Jesus, greater than Solomon, and is "god" to his people.


Sure... Satan.

Isaiah 14:13 You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven;

I will raise my throne

above the stars of God;

I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,

on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;

I will make myself like the Most High."

Seems to me this is the entire message of the LDS Church. They promise to make you like God and give you your own little world to control. Wonder who's message that really is? Sure sounds familiar.

[just Johnna]

Crusader, where do you get this stuff? If you had the source material before you, you wouldn't have been taken advantage of by those who quote mine and spin. I'd love you to post your review of the "Rules of Engagement" by Bill McKeever. I'm sure I'm missing your side of it.
http://www.theologyweb.com/article/RulesofEngagement

Now, shall I dampen your fun?

Sunday, May 26, 1844. Joseph was reading from 2 Corinthians when a mob came in and disrupted the meeting and attempted to break it up. He taunted them that they would be unable to stop the work. Rhetorically, he took his cue from the sufferings of Paul that were being discussed:

"I, like Paul have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecution. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble...If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last...In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil...Come on! Ye prosecutors! Ye false swearers... I have more to boast of than ever any man had...If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of the mountain and crow like a rooster. I shall always beat them....I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."


Josiah Quincy, he was from Boston and writing for a Boston newspaper, right? He wrote up an article on his tour of Nauvoo. He was more impressed with the layout of the streets and the surrounding farmlands (where all had been a swamp the previous year) than the temple Joseph was so eager to show the journalist.
http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/JQuincy.html
In a tone half-way between jest and earnest, and which might have been taken for either at the option of the hearer, the prophet put this inquiry: Is not here one greater than Solomon, who built a Temple with the treasures of his father David and with the assistance of Huran (sic), King of Tyre. Joseph Smith has built his Temple with no one to aid him in the work."
Quincy's conclusion is not as condemnatory as your isolated quote suggests:
I have endeavored to give the details of my visit to the Mormon prophet with absolute accuracy. If the reader does not know just what to make of Joseph Smith, I cannot help him out of the difficulty. I myself stand helpless before the puzzle.



Around History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 319-320, At the beginning of the meeting, Joseph Smith tells the congregation his lungs are injured (he had been preaching extensively the day before.) He called on Brigham Young so read, then he preached, then he gave the podium to other elders with these remarks. His remarks showed good humor to those in the congregation who were disappointed that Joseph would not be doing all the preaching himself:
I shall leave my brethren to enlarge on this subject: it is my duty to teach the doctrine. I would teach it more fully--the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. God is not willing to let me gratify you; but I must teach the Elders, and they should teach you. God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in his stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it. I have been giving Elder Adams instruction in some principles to speak to you, and if he makes a mistake, I will get up and correct him.


Can anyone recall a Bible figure with such a braggadocious nature? Smith's claim is that he's greater than Jesus, greater than Solomon, and is "god" to his people.He did not say he was greater than Jesus, he said the mob would be unable to drive the people away. He compares himself to Solomon as a temple builder, who had the advantages of being King. The remark about the elders being his mouthpiece is a play on Aaron being spokesman: he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God" (Exodus iv: 14-16.) Joseph Smith is not a god to his people. He is a son of God as we are.

Of course, Young did say that nobody will enter the Celestial Kingdom without the "certificate" of Joseph Smith, for he reigns there "as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity and calling, as God does in heaven." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).Given how you handled the other quotes, I don't much trust that you've presented this in a straightforward manner either. I don't have a Journal of Discourse at home. Old sermons are not scripture, especially if not well-quoted.

Joseph Smith was a people person, and people loved him, and a lot of people love him still. I love him myself. There is no personality you would deem suitable for our prophet, because you are against having prophets, and you are against the gospel Joseph preached. But I'm not. Joseph's not some safe Victorian Dali Lama. He is himself.

Seems to me this is the entire message of the LDS Church. They promise to make you like God...
Doesn't all of Christianity promises that Christ will make his followers like him, that our old selves can die and we can be reborn a new creature in him? We can put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousnes and holiness? Isn't it that we recognize Jesus Christ to be superior to anything else, and wish above all else that he live in us? Aren't we to be chastened or disciplined to our own profit, that we may be partakers in his holiness? Wasn't there something about judging the angels, or being made joint-heirs with Christ?
...and give you your own little world to control. Wonder who's message that really is? Sure sounds familiar.Not familiar to me, who's handing out planets to control? Source please?

[Sparko]

Doesn't all of Christianity promises that Christ will make his followers like him, that our old selves can die and we can be reborn a new creature in him? We can put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousnes and holiness? Isn't it that we recognize Jesus Christ to be superior to anything else, and wish above all else that he live in us? Aren't we to be chastened or disciplined to our own profit, that we may be partakers in his holiness? Wasn't there something about judging the angels, or being made joint-heirs with Christ? We are never taught we will become like God. We are instead told we are the clay and God is the potter. We are also likened as bondservants and at the very best, children and friends. Never as equals. We will never be equal to God, we will always be his worshipers and servants and children.


Not familiar to me, who's handing out planets to control? Source please? Are you telling me that you don't know that the LDS church teaches that one day good Mormans will be gods themselves, and togetheer with their spirit wives, will have their own worlds? And that our God is just such a god? Him and his spirit wife were once as we are now? mere humans?

Sources:

God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.

God the Father had a Father, Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105.
After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.

[just Johnna]

Ah, so neither of us have access to any of these NONCANONICAL sources, so I don't see how we will discuss them in an interesting way. Your background seems to be the google search engine. And I'm not so much an apologist as I am a living, breathing Mormon who happens to be hanging around T-Web while she studies the New Testament. I enjoy the company and insights of people who take the New Testament seriously.

I have no idea if the word "planet" even appears in any of those old documents you bibliographed. It is impossible to tell from the CARM site, or from the sites that cut-and-paste CARM.

Here's a credibility tip. It's more scholarly to cite Cook and Ehat, not TPJS. And Mormon Doctrine isn't. Who's your audience?

Somehow I've managed to become a 40-year-old LDS woman, and teach lots of classes along the way, and have no need of the Journal of Discourses, back issues of Times and Seasons, Gospel through the Ages (what's that, an old manual?) I'll never have Bruce McConkie's Mormon Doctrine in the house, though I read it pretty thoroughly as a child in my parents' house. If I were to build a reference library I would start with Ehat and Cook. You're pulling refs off the internet, from sites like CARM, and I don't agree with how they summarize the material.

This is where I live and teach: the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price; and Conference Reports that came out during my lifetime.

We are never taught we will become like God. We are instead told we are the clay and God is the potter.

We're taught both. Isaiah 29:16 and Isaiah 64:8 (O Lord, thou art our Father, we are the clay, and thou art the potter) These don't negate New Testament teachings that he would have us become like him.

We are also likened as bondservants and at the very best, children and friends. Never as equals. We will never be equal to God, we will always be his worshipers and servants and children.
Ah, but I don't believe I will ever equal God--I too believe I will always be his worshiper, servant, and daughter. (See my Boyd K. Packer quote below. He is a name a mormon would recognize.) And always the bondservant, redeemed by Christ's blood. Also, priest and king/priestess and queen. It is amazing and astounding that the God Most High makes us in relation to him.

"For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren."

Perhaps you think Mormons like me read the Bible too literally? We could discuss that.

Boyd K. Packer, October 1984 General Conference, "the Pattern of Our Parentage"
The Father is the one true God. This thing is certain: no one will ever ascend above Him; no one will ever replace Him. Nor will anything ever change the relationship that we, His literal offspring, have with Him. He is Eloheim, the Father. He is God. Of Him there is only one. We revere our Father and our God; we worship Him.

There is only one Christ, one Redeemer. We accept the divinity of the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. We accept the promise that we may become joint heirs with Him.

Are you telling me that you don't know that the LDS church teaches that one day good Mormons will be gods themselves, and together with their spirit wives, will have their own worlds? And that our God is just such a god? Him and his spirit wife were once as we are now? mere humans?
I should really help you rewrite this. The term "spirit wives" is the language of a hostile outsider; it looks like John C. Bennett is your authority on Mormon theology. Being a wife or a husband requires a body.

The LDS church teaches that as children of God we have divine potential. The backstory on God is not much taught or emphasized. There is nothing "mere" about God. Stephen Robinson likes to point out we don't teach God was ever a sinner. That would be a significant difference between me and God.


Sources:

God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.

God the Father had a Father, Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105.
After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.

[Sparko]

But you still never actually denied my accusations.

Do the mormons teach that:

1. God used to be a mortal human being?

2. That good mormons will someday be like God is now, and have their own worlds/planets/domains (whatever you want to call it) which they will share with their wives (sorry about saying "spirit wives")

[Krusader]

Ah, so neither of us have access to any of these NONCANONICAL sources, so I don't see how we will discuss them in an interesting way. Your background seems to be the google search engine. And I'm not so much an apologist as I am a living, breathing Mormon who happens to be hanging around T-Web while she studies the New Testament. I enjoy the company and insights of people who take the New Testament seriously.

I have no idea if the word "planet" even appears in any of those old documents you bibliographed. It is impossible to tell from the CARM site, or from the sites that cut-and-paste CARM.

Here's a credibility tip. It's more scholarly to cite Cook and Ehat, not TPJS. And Mormon Doctrine isn't. Who's your audience?

Somehow I've managed to become a 40-year-old LDS woman, and teach lots of classes along the way, and have no need of the Journal of Discourses, back issues of Times and Seasons, Gospel through the Ages (what's that, an old manual?) I'll never have Bruce McConkie's Mormon Doctrine in the house, though I read it pretty thoroughly as a child in my parents' house. If I were to build a reference library I would start with Ehat and Cook. You're pulling refs off the internet, from sites like CARM, and I don't agree with how they summarize the material.

This is where I live and teach: the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price; and Conference Reports that came out during my lifetime.



We're taught both. Isaiah 29:16 and Isaiah 64:8 (O Lord, thou art our Father, we are the clay, and thou art the potter) These don't negate New Testament teachings that he would have us become like him.


Ah, but I don't believe I will ever equal God--I too believe I will always be his worshiper, servant, and daughter. (See my Boyd K. Packer quote below. He is a name a mormon would recognize.) And always the bondservant, redeemed by Christ's blood. Also, priest and king/priestess and queen. It is amazing and astounding that the God Most High makes us in relation to him.

"For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren."

Perhaps you think Mormons like me read the Bible too literally? We could discuss that.

Boyd K. Packer, October 1984 General Conference, "the Pattern of Our Parentage"
The Father is the one true God. This thing is certain: no one will ever ascend above Him; no one will ever replace Him. Nor will anything ever change the relationship that we, His literal offspring, have with Him. He is Eloheim, the Father. He is God. Of Him there is only one. We revere our Father and our God; we worship Him.

There is only one Christ, one Redeemer. We accept the divinity of the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. We accept the promise that we may become joint heirs with Him.

I should really help you rewrite this. The term "spirit wives" is the language of a hostile outsider; it looks like John C. Bennett is your authority on Mormon theology. Being a wife or a husband requires a body.

The LDS church teaches that as children of God we have divine potential. The backstory on God is not much taught or emphasized. There is nothing "mere" about God. Stephen Robinson likes to point out we don't teach God was ever a sinner. That would be a significant difference between me and God.
I'm glad you managed to get to be 40 years old, happily teaching Mormonism. However, you really need to research the history of Joseph Smith and Mormonism. I know the chances are slim that you'll really delve into it, because that history is only available from Christian sourcres - but the research is there, the facts are there, and no amount of denial will change it. If Mormonism is true, then it will stand the test. You really need to check in with the Tanner's website (Utah lighthouse), and check out the documents yourself. Many are microfilmed. I happen to have copies of the Journal of Discourses, which you can obtain from the Tanners. Do your own research, and then you will have to admit we are not telling fibs - simply attempting to protect the gullible from the Mormon missionaries who present the pretty side of Mormonism, while ignoring the dark side.

[just Johnna]

But you still never actually denied my accusations.

Do the mormons teach that:

1. God used to be a mortal human being?

2. That good mormons will someday be like God is now, and have their own worlds/planets/domains (whatever you want to call it) which they will share with their wives (sorry about saying "spirit wives")Sorry, for some reason thought I covered these in my Boyd Packer quote. Were they accusations?

1. It is believed God experienced some kind of mortal experience, but we know nothing specific of what that means. Jesus Christ has experienced a mortal existence, so it is clearly possible to be divine before going through mortality.

2. Here is a quote, relevant to potential, from an official proclamation: "All human beings--male and female--are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally."

Notice how this applies to both men and women. Your phrasing suggests men have a divine destiny and women will be around at the time.

Wikipedia. emphasis mine: Exaltation or Eternal Progression is a seminal doctrinal belief among devout members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church or Mormons) that mortal men, as children of their Father in Heaven, can grow to be like Him or become a god. Although the exact meaning of this has not been defined, most Mormons speculate that this means they will achieve divine or God-like status by following Church teachings and through the atonement.


One ordinance required of all those who hope to achieve exaltation is to being sealed in LDS Church temples, which is one reason for the LDS' commitment to perform vicarious work for the dead; in order that all mankind has the potential to live with their Father in Heaven.


Exaltation is the ultimate goal of most faithful LDS Church members.

I don't think the planet idea is useful as it is a speculation. It has no scriptural basis, and is so beside the point.

[just Johnna]

I'm glad you managed to get to be 40 years old, happily teaching Mormonism. Well, to be strictly honest, I'm not quite 40, but I'm close enough to start getting used to the idea of being 40.
However, you really need to research the history of Joseph Smith and Mormonism. I know the chances are slim that you'll really delve into it, because that history is only available from Christian sourcres - but the research is there, the facts are there, and no amount of denial will change it. If Mormonism is true, then it will stand the test. You really need to check in with the Tanner's website (Utah lighthouse), and check out the documents yourself. Many are microfilmed. I happen to have copies of the Journal of Discourses, which you can obtain from the Tanners. Do your own research, and then you will have to admit we are not telling fibs - simply attempting to protect the gullible from the Mormon missionaries who present the pretty side of Mormonism, while ignoring the dark side.You seem quite determined to view me as ignorant. I don't have the kind of familiarity with primary source materials to claim myself to be the next Leonard Arrington, but I'm familiar enough with what's out there to be considered well-read. I don't need nonMormons or Mormons to interpret the data for me, although I have certainly enjoyed reading various books and considering various interpretations. The main thing I get out of the Journal of Discourses is that plurality in thinking has always been a part of our faith.

[Krusader]

Well, to be strictly honest, I'm not quite 40, but I'm close enough to start getting used to the idea of being 40.
You seem quite determined to view me as ignorant. I don't have the kind of familiarity with primary source materials to claim myself to be the next Leonard Arrington, but I'm familiar enough with what's out there to be considered well-read. I don't need nonMormons or Mormons to interpret the data for me, although I have certainly enjoyed reading various books and considering various interpretations. The main thing I get out of the Journal of Discourses is that plurality in thinking has always been a part of our faith.

Ummm - the main thing I get out of the Journal of Discourses is that Brigham Young taught that he never preached a sermon which could not be seen as Scripture! You really need to check out some of his sermons.

Yes, there are a plurality of voices out there - one for the TB Mormon, and one for us Gentiles!